Author Topic: Multiple reasons why Sheila Caffell is innocent and Jeremy Bamber is guilty  (Read 272534 times)

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Offline lane99

...1) Without wishing to sound flippant I guess in SC's mind she was going to meet her maker and of course would want to look her best...

It won't have sounded flippant to anyone with any insight into suicide. 

The simple fact is that it is well within the normal distribution of known outcomes for people about to commit suicide to take measures for their body to remain in as uncompromised and unoffensive a condition as possible.  And there's a variety of reasons of why they do this.

Offline scipio_usmc

It won't have sounded flippant to anyone with any insight into suicide. 

The simple fact is that it is well within the normal distribution of known outcomes for people about to commit suicide to take measures for their body to remain in as uncompromised and unoffensive a condition as possible.  And there's a variety of reasons of why they do this.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Name even a single case where it was determined that someone who decided to shoot their entire family and then themselves shot and killed everyone then took a bath and changed their clothing so that they would not have GSR on their clothign and body in the afterlife.

The only cases where peopel who ended up committing suicide tried to hide evidence and clean up was where they intended to get away with it at first.



“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Some recent posts have made ref to the buckets of water found in the kitchen containing clothing left in soak.

In AE's wit stats dated 8th - 13th Sept 1985 she describes finding three buckets and makes reference to one containing two pairs of blood stained ladies knickers.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3106

In AE's wit stats dated 14th Aug 1991 she describes two buckets with clothes in soak.  One of these had Sheila's knickers in, the other tracksuit bottoms.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3556

Why the discrepancies?  Three buckets to two?  Ladies knickers to Sheila's knickers?  Did not initially note the tracksuit bottoms at the time but recalled some 6 years later?  Was there a third bucket and if so what was in it?  >@@(*&)
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Jodie

If she wanted her body to be 'inoffensive' surely she would have ensured she was wearing underwear and not just a short flimsy nightie and a tampon.

I don't feel it's necessary to even argue such insignificant speculation as to whether she committed suicide or not when it's blatant she didn't!

Even if she had washed herself it doesn't explain why her hands were free from GSR even after she'd apparently shot herself fatally!
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 04:02:32 PM by Jodie »

Offline Holly Goodhead

If she wanted her body to be 'inoffensive' surely she would have ensured she was wearing underwear and not just a short flimsy nightie and a tampon.

I don't feel it's necessary to even argue such insignificant speculation as to whether she committed suicide or not when it's blatant she didn't!

Even if she had washed herself it doesn't explain why her hands were free from GSR even after she'd apparently shot herself fatally!

I have no real idea what goes on in the minds of those that are led by misguided religious beliefs/commit suicide.  I can only go by what the professionals say eg Dr Ferguson and Prof Knight in this case.  Perhaps the idea of being clean is important but the attire less so  >@@(*&)

It is blatant to you Jodie but not to me and JB's growing army of supporters.  We firmly believe that JB's conviction is the worst MoJ in modern British criminal history. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunshot_residue

"Victims don't always get GSR on them, even suicide victims can test negative for GSR".
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

I did say it was going off track slightly  8(0(*

However the important factors for me are that SC discussed suicide with a number of individuals including her psychiatrist.  Also Prof Knight at trial spoke of instances where those committing suicide had gone about cleaning up beforehand.

She discussed it years earlier which is why she was being treated for Schizophrenia. Many people consider suicide at one point in their life most don't act upon it.  The doctor doesn't think she was the type that would act upon it and she was improving because of her treatment.

I challenged you before to provide a case where someone with her illness who was being treated and on their medication ended up committing murder suicide. 

The simple truth is that those with mental illness who commit murder, suicide or murder suicide do so before they had a chance to be treated or after stopping their treatment and/or medication. Those on their medication do not end up intentionally killing themselves or others.

At any rate she didn't say anything about her parents, her problem was herself and her children.  Distraught mothers killing themselves and their children happens but the killing of her parents as well doesn't fit at all.  There are no explanations for why she would kill them, her children and herself. The notion she had delusions of everyone being the devil doesn't fit. Wanting to end her own life for depression and killing her kids because she would not be around to take care of them doesn't explain killing her parents.  This is why I started a thread on this very subject.

Invariably warning signs are missed in tradegies like this. No such warning signs can be found here and no explanations as to why she would kill everyone let alone why she would wait till 3AM while everyone was sleeping to do so.  Nothing to indicate her medicine stopped working and she was agitated hours before.

This factored in with all the evidence against Jeremy just makes clear she didn't do it.

Yeah I know you choose to ignore all the evidence including that Nevill could not have made the phone call, even if he had been magically able to talk that he would have disclosed he ahd June had already been shot and needed medical attention or that Jeremy told Julie not to go to work because police would need to speak to her indicating his family was dead even though police had not yet found the bodies. While you choose to ignore these things rational people do not.

 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

I have no real idea what goes on in the minds of those that are led by misguided religious beliefs/commit suicide.  I can only go by what the professionals say eg Dr Ferguson and Prof Knight in this case.  Perhaps the idea of being clean is important but the attire less so  >@@(*&)

It is blatant to you Jodie but not to me and JB's growing army of supporters.  We firmly believe that JB's conviction is the worst MoJ in modern British criminal history.

You and his supporters have no leg to stand on though.  Your beliefs are not founded in evidence. It consists of a propaganda campaign merely. A review of the evidence doesn't suggest his innocence but rather his guilt.  You spend most of your time running from the evidence not discussing it. You make excuses to avoid discussing the evidence.   

You make bare bones claims without any evidence to supoort them and then when called on the carpet for them you go try to find some kind of evidence to make your claims plausible.  If you actually followed the evidence and made your conclusions based on the relevant evidence you would be on more sound ground but the evidence leads to Jeremy's guilt so you won't. Instead you simply insist he is innocent because that is what you want to argue and then you go looking for something to twist to support your claim.

The doctors who saw Sheila say they don't think she would have followed through with suicide and saw improvement. She discussed it years prior not recently. They don't think she was at risk to actually commit suicide. The simply fact she discussed with her doctors that she thought about it before she started seeing them doesn't help much.  She was at most risk when she thought about it but was not receiving treatment.  If she didn't do it before receiving treatment even she was much less likely to do so once she was receiving treatment particularly while on her medication. Those off their medication or who never took it to begin with are the ones we see following through with suicide. This wasnt suicide merely though it was murder suicide and there is no way to account to her killing everyone except her brother that fits any known patterns even if off their medication.  But again she had the emdicide in her system she was unde rits influence and docile only 5 hours before the murders.       

As for religious motivations you have to look at the exact religion in question. You can't take some foreign religion that has no bearing and even worse compare fanatical muslim suicide bombers to the Bamber murders and then expect your argument to sway anyone. 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunshot_residue

"Victims don't always get GSR on them, even suicide victims can test negative for GSR".


Wow a generalized claim made in wikipedia that has no source to back the claim up that means a whole lot. Suicides take many shapes and forms. GSR might be minimal if only 1 shot is fired and the gun is not close to the body.  Your own source indicates the closer the weapon is fired to the body the greater the amount of GSR that will be present.  Does it say if someone hugs a rifle and fires 2 times that it is likely or even possible not to get any GSR on the clothing and body?  Nope. All evidence was be looked at with specificity. Ther eis no hard and fast back spatter rule either liek you tried to pretend asserting it was rare. Back spatte ris not rare and the correct inquiry is to look at location of the wound and the other specfic variables at play in a particular case.  Just so happens the expert determined it was a near certainy the nature and location of Sheila's fatal wound would produce back spatter. You tried to refute that with the unsupported claim back spatter is rare.   

This particular case features the claim that she stuck the gun under her neck and her whole body was thus around the rifle.  What is the chance she would get no GSR at all on her clothing under these circumstances? Nil which is why the testimony in court was that there was no reason to believe she fired the fatal shot.  Again though there was not merely a complete absence of any evidence to implicate Sheila. There was evidence that she could not have done it because of the suppressor had been used to shoot her and a great deal of other evidence that implicated Jeremy.     

You would like us to ignore the evidence and close our eyes to logic to also come to believe that Jeremy is innocent.  I have faith in science and logic not in Jeremy. It doesn't really matter how many ignorant people are fooled by Jeremy's propagandist teams.  What you and they believe matters not.  What can be proved is what matters because that is how you convince a court and actually start a movement.

You are good at stating your unsupported opinions but you are not able to actually back them up with any evidence and that means you have no hope of winning the debate.

 

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Some recent posts have made ref to the buckets of water found in the kitchen containing clothing left in soak.

In AE's wit stats dated 8th - 13th Sept 1985 she describes finding three buckets and makes reference to one containing two pairs of blood stained ladies knickers.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3106

In AE's wit stats dated 14th Aug 1991 she describes two buckets with clothes in soak.  One of these had Sheila's knickers in, the other tracksuit bottoms.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3556

Why the discrepancies?  Three buckets to two?  Ladies knickers to Sheila's knickers?  Did not initially note the tracksuit bottoms at the time but recalled some 6 years later?  Was there a third bucket and if so what was in it?  >@@(*&)

Does anyone have any ideas about the buckets/contents as per post above?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Does anyone have any ideas about the buckets/contents as per post above?

I read her statement and do not see a reference to 2 pairs of bloody underwear but rather only one pair. 2 pairs of bloody underwear is even greater evidence that it was not clothing she removed after the murders but rather clothing that was soaking in general because of menstrual stains. 

As for the discrepancy in the number of buckets many years passed between the interviews.  People often misrecollect after time passes which is why it is important to document things as close to an event as possible. If she did change the number as you claim then it doesn't really matter though the more conservative thing is to assume the contemporaneous interview is more likely correct. She could have meant to say 2 and said 3 by accident at that contemporaneous interview and thus the later one could be correct.  But it is more likely that over the passage of time she simply forgot there were 3 and only recalled 2. 

As for leggings, many leggings have the cotton consistency of sweat pants they simply are tight fitting instead of loose like men's sweats. Some even call women's sweat pants leggings.  Some women go jogging in leggings which can thus result in them being called jogging pants. When I was young sweatpants were called jogging pants.  But modern jogging pants tend to be lightweight and streamlined so different from sweat pants. The bottom line is there might not be a discrepancy at all. She simply might have chosen to call them something that in her eyes is a synonym.  Much like many people call a polo shirt a golf shirt.

This is what most think of when we hear leggings:

http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server4500/21357/products/269/images/1039/9116_StirrupLeggings_bl_back__17986.1350071111.1280.1280.jpg?c=1

My nieces even have leggings that look like jeans, though I have no clue what they are actually made of it is not denim.

Some people seem to think these leggings were in fact nylons. If they were nylons then she most likely did not remember what they were other something than bottoms. I don't recall anyone calling them nylons though and those who talked about this seem to think they are pants like in the photo above.

The clothing soaking in the buckets was described and recorded as things that are worn on a lady's bottom half.  Blood spatter from beating Nevill and GSR from gunshots would be primarily if not entirely concentrated on the upper half of the killer.  So you need to find evidence of a shirt or gown that such evidence would have been on to suggest there is evidence she changed her clothing, put it somewhere to wash and that is why she had no such evidence on her gown.

Underwear for sure will not have any evidence of import unless a killer were to murder someone while wearing the underwear and nothing over them. 

If a shirt were not covering pants then perhaps a drop or 2 of blood would get on the pants.

Why would Sheila wear leggings to bed though when she normally wore her night gown? Killing at 3AM would mean she went to bed but didn't sleep and got up and killed them.  If she were going to go through the effort to wear pants she would put on some shoes to be more stable as she fired. I wouldn't want to fire a weapon barefoot. 

The bottom line is that there is no evidence she put on special clothing to carry out the murders instead of wearing what she normally wore to bed and no evidence that she changed clothing after the murders.


 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Lesley1000

I believe Jeremy Bamber is guilty and usually I am a person who sways for the defendant. The fact that Sheila's blood was on the silencer did it for me. She couldn't shoot herself and then take the silencer off the riffle. All the evidence points to Jeremy; he had a clear motive; I believe Julie Mugford.

Offline lane99

Lesley1000, can you give some examples of controversial cases where you sided with the defendant?

Offline scipio_usmc

Lesley1000, can you give some examples of controversial cases where you sided with the defendant?

I can give you a contemporary one- Amanda Knox.  I don't like her, she was a pot smoking slut who was extremely stupid and naive and yet it is patently obvious she is innocent because there is no evidence at all against her and the allegations make no sense at all on top of there being a complete lack of evidence.

Some others are Casey Anthony and Robert Blake.  Unlike Knox I actually think that both were involved in some manner in the deaths but there wasn't enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt they committed murder. Casey Anthony at minimum though was guity of child neglect and covering up the death if she didn't commit murder.  She was a horrible mother quite obviously but there is not enough evidence to say she committed murder.

I care about evidence, I don't go my personal opinion of whether I like a defendant or not. 

When I first read about OJ Simpson I said no way someone would be so stupid and ddn't believe he was guilty. I liked his HBO show First and Ten and his football accomplishments.  I didn't know him personally so had no idea he was such a jerk or that he would be so stupid as to commit murder and leave so much evidence. After his infamous chase and the full evidence came to light it was obvious I was wrong about him.  He was lucky enough to get away with murder because of a stupid jury (1 juror actually stated publicly that she didn't understand what it meant when the expert said the odds of the DNA belonging to someone else was in the biillions, she had no clue what the Earth's population was). You would think he would be extra careful from that point on knowing he was in the spotlight but demonstrated how stupid he truly is by committing armed robbery.

Stupid criminals get caught.  That is really the lesson to learn.     

 

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline puglove

Scipio, do you have any thoughts on the JonBenet Ramsey case?
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline scipio_usmc

Scipio, do you have any thoughts on the JonBenet Ramsey case?

There has been so much conflicting information released over the years.  Initially we were told there were no tracks in the snow from the house so no one could have come and gone thus it had to be someone in the house. 

Unknown male DNA was found on her clothing including her underwear.  Why would a male be handling her underwear though?  This suggests the DNA belongs to her killer.  The ransom note suggests it is someone who knew them.

This is really as far as things progressed. They keep checking the DNA to see if the person it matches is ever arrested but that's it.  If they catch the person it will either be th ekiller or someone with info because he had to do something for his DNA to get on her clothing. Either he did it or knows who did.

It is possible that the parents know who did it and were covering.  We don't really have a basis to know for sure though.  The police did a horrible job and allowed the scene to be contaminated.  There is no way to really figure out if some one broke in or not.  he DNA found on her body is their Hail Mary play to solving it.  For all we know he is dead though, the mother died already. If so there is no hope to ever find him. The only way they will find him is if he is still alive, gets arrested for a crime of a serious nature and thus his DNA is taken. Unless he did their laundry or there was some other innocent way he could account for his DNA being on her clothing one would have to assume he was the killer or took part in the killings somehow.  If the DNA did have an innocent explanation then that opens the door to the family again. It would mean the killer didn't leave DNA and could be an intruder, a guest or even the family members. 



 

 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline lane99

I can give you a contemporary one...

My interest was in hearing from Leslie1000.  I'm presuming you are not him/her, so would still be looking forward to a reply from Leslie1000 if they find the time.