Author Topic: What is 'science'  (Read 27641 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2018, 11:25:21 PM »
They are statistically tested to prove they work... You cannot contradict that

Statistics is a formal science. As such it's not an exact science, It uses samples and then generalises from the results. So if a certain number of people are tested and they are unharmed, it's assumed that no-one will be harmed. If it were an exact science no drugs would need to be withdrawn when they caused harm to those who differed from the ones tested.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2018, 06:32:58 AM »
What was the point of linking to that article?

To show that medicine isn't an exact science. The exact sciences are the ones which produce laws; physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy and geology are exact sciences.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2018, 06:50:38 AM »
To show that medicine isn't an exact science. The exact sciences are the ones which produce laws; physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy and geology are exact sciences.

No one has said medicine is an exact science.... What's your point

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2018, 06:51:16 AM »
To show that medicine isn't an exact science. The exact sciences are the ones which produce laws; physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy and geology are exact sciences.
Then Dr Healey is quite correct to say that cadaver dog alerts are not an exact science.  Next!
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2018, 06:58:00 AM »
I think medicine is more of an exact science  than you think... All drugs are rigourously tested.... Doctors dont just say I've tested this drug myself and it works... Everything is open and supported by data.  The, way the dogs are tested is not open and supported by no data... Its based on opinion...and according to you we cannot question that opinion... Science is based on facts....that can be examined and questioned..

Drugs have unexpected effects too. People diagnosed with and treated for Parkinson's disease sometimes have drug induced Parkinson's. It can be cured simply by stopping taking the drug which is causing it. Testing doesn't expose such side effects, which develop over time. Taking drugs may be necessary, but it's always risky too, in my opinion.



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Offline Mr Gray

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2018, 07:03:48 AM »
Drugs have unexpected effects too. People diagnosed with and treated for Parkinson's disease sometimes have drug induced Parkinson's. It can be cured simply by stopping taking the drug which is causing it. Testing doesn't expose such side effects, which develop over time. Taking drugs may be necessary, but it's always risky too, in my opinion.

What's your point.... We all know drugs can have side effects

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2018, 07:04:12 AM »
Drugs have unexpected effects too. People diagnosed with and treated for Parkinson's disease sometimes have drug induced Parkinson's. It can be cured simply by stopping taking the drug which is causing it. Testing doesn't expose such side effects, which develop over time. Taking drugs may be necessary, but it's always risky too, in my opinion.
Is this thread an attempt by you to belittle the medical profession? 
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2018, 07:06:16 AM »
Then Dr Healey is quite correct to say that cadaver dog alerts are not an exact science.  Next!

She was, but why should that allow her to relax? It has never been claimed that cadaver dog alerts were an exact science, neither has it ever aspired to be an exact science. It's like pointing out that a train is not a bus. Nobody ever said it was.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2018, 07:09:05 AM »
She was, but why should that allow her to relax? It has never been claimed that cadaver dog alerts were an exact science, neither has it ever aspired to be an exact science. It's like pointing out that a train is not a bus. Nobody ever said it was.

It would allow her to relax because she realised it wasn't an exact science..... She had been told the dogs had alerted to cadaver odour... She knew from the video the alertsvwere questionable

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2018, 07:09:36 AM »
She was, but why should that allow her to relax? It has never been claimed that cadaver dog alerts were an exact science, neither has it ever aspired to be an exact science. It's like pointing out that a train is not a bus. Nobody ever said it was.
She can do what she likes can’t she?  If she is reassured by watching the dog videos that they look incredibly imprecise and  inexact, who are you to tell her she shouldn’t be allowed to form this view?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2018, 07:23:01 AM »
Is this thread an attempt by you to belittle the medical profession?

No. It's an attempt to demonstrate that criticising police dogs because they're not ;scientifically' tested is nonsense. Firstly, there are many different types of science. Some, like the exact sciences, can discover certainties. Others, like  behavioural science, can't. They can give insights, but they can't discover certainties.

Testing living beings is much more difficult than testing inanimate objects. Living beings think, decide and choose.They have wants and needs and relationships. All these things are personal, not universal and each living being will react differently. That's why testing 18 handlers and their dogs reveals insights only about those handlers and their dogs. Another group could react to the test completely differently.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2018, 07:26:37 AM »
No. It's an attempt to demonstrate that criticising police dogs because they're not ;scientifically' tested is nonsense. Firstly, there are many different types of science. Some, like the exact sciences, can discover certainties. Others, like  behavioural science, can't. They can give insights, but they can't discover certainties.

Testing living beings is much more difficult than testing inanimate objects. Living beings think, decide and choose.They have wants and needs and relationships. All these things are personal, not universal and each living being will react differently. That's why testing 18 handlers and their dogs reveals insights only about those handlers and their dogs. Another group could react to the test completely differently.
You’ve just highlighted precisely why cadaver dog alerts are so unreliable.  Unless the dogs and their handlers have been independently assessed and tested their alerts are meaningless without corroborative evidence.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Mr Gray

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2018, 07:27:25 AM »
You’ve just highlighted precisely why cadaver dog alerts are so unreliable.  Unless the dogs and their handlers have been independently assessed and tested their alerts are meaningless without corroborative evidence.

Precisely

Offline G-Unit

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2018, 07:38:24 AM »
She can do what she likes can’t she?  If she is reassured by watching the dog videos that they look incredibly imprecise and  inexact, who are you to tell her she shouldn’t be allowed to form this view?

Uninformed people bandy the word 'science' around incorrectly. Kate McCann isn't uninformed. In my opinion she knew very well that was using a straw man argument. It's like me relaxing because a train isn't a bus. Nobody ever said it was.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2018, 07:41:06 AM »
Uninformed people bandy the word 'science' around incorrectly. Kate McCann isn't uninformed. In my opinion she knew very well that was using a straw man argument. It's like me relaxing because a train isn't a bus. Nobody ever said it was.

Another pointless thread... You seem to be ignoring the facts... Kate, was told the dogs had detected cadaver odour in the apartment... That would have been a shock... Seeing the digs in action put her mind at rest... It really is, quite obvious
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 07:43:53 AM by Davel »