Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: pathfinder73 on February 16, 2015, 12:23:32 AM
Title: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 16, 2015, 12:23:32 AM
855
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on February 16, 2015, 11:27:05 AM
Thank you for starting this thread PF. An excellent idea.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 16, 2015, 12:10:07 PM
Thank you for starting this thread PF. An excellent idea.
Thanks Faithlilly.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on February 16, 2015, 12:12:56 PM
Panorama walk-out over McCann film
Why did TV journalist David Mills, the producer of a Panorama film on the McCann affair, quit the project before it was transmitted last week? The Observer's David Rose reveals the inside story of the latest row to hit the BBC's flagship show
David Rose Sunday 25 November 2007 10.25 GMT
In the credits at the end of last week's Panorama special on the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, one name was conspicuous by its absence - that of David Mills, the programme's original producer. His name had disappeared from the end credits despite the fact that it was his company, Mills Productions, that had done all the research and was responsible for bringing the exclusive footage at the film's heart to the BBC.
Two weeks before transmission last Tuesday, Mills - one of Britain's most respected documentary-makers, who in his 40-year career has made 120 investigative films for broadcasters including the BBC, Granada, Thames and America's CBS - walked out of the programme after a furious row with Panorama's editor, Sandy Smith, over the programme's approach and argument.
He then wrote a stinging email to the BBC attacking Panorama for losing its journalistic passion. It has created a stir in the media world, mixing as it does the controversial issues of the McCanns and how their story is covered, journalistic balance and television current affairs.
'I had written a draft script and had already been told it was compelling,' Mills said. 'Sandy turned up with a completely different version and basically imposed it on me. I told him, "I cannot edit the film to this: it's a completely different show, and I'm not going to do it." To have this happening is very depressing.'
The incident - one of several controversies Panorama has faced this year - suggests, Mills said, that 'the BBC is no longer interested in serious current affairs'. BBC sources confirmed last night that the decisions about the programme's shape had been taken 'close to the top' of the BBC management hierarchy - which has already conducted a series of internal meetings over how the corporation should approach McCann case coverage in general.
As one of those interviewed by Mills and the programme's reporter, Richard Bilton, I can attest to how different the programme shown was to what they told me less than a month ago that they were envisaging. Along with The Observer's Ned Temko, who has covered the case for this newspaper, I ended up on the cutting-room floor. At that stage - as Mills's draft script makes plain - his intention was to make an analytical, investigative programme that would have been very critical of the Portuguese police, not only for the errors in their investigation, but for their apparent campaign of disinformation designed to put pressure on Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann. It would also have criticised both the local and British press over allegations that they recycled unfounded rumours with little sign of fact-checking or detachment.
It would, as Mills confirmed again yesterday, have scrutinised the various allegations that have been floated against the McCanns and concluded they are baseless: 'We had an investigative team looking into the story for weeks. Our assessment was that the purported DNA evidence was weak and inconclusive, while so far as we could tell the supposedly significant "discrepancies" between the stories told by the McCanns' friends about the night of Madeleine's disappearance amount to very little indeed.'
The original film would have compared Madeleine to the JonBenet Ramsey case in Colorado, about which Mills has made three previous documentaries. After the body of JonBenet, a child beauty pageant winner aged six, was found in her parents' Boulder home, they were vilified by the police and media, despite their continued insistence that they had nothing to do with her death. They claimed she had been killed by an intruder. Mills's version of the McCann Panorama featured an interview - eventually not used - with JonBenet's father, John, in which he said that the Colorado police 'did a great job of convincing the media and the world that we were guilty, but they couldn't charge us, because of course they had no case'. Years later DNA evidence proved beyond doubt that JonBenet had been killed by an intruder. John Ramsey told Panorama: 'It's a life-time damage. No question about it.'
The programme on the McCanns that was broadcast by Panorama was much less ambitious. It recited the case both for and against the McCanns, but had nothing harsh to say about either the police or the media. It did include new material, including a video diary shot of the McCanns in Portugal by their friend John Corner - footage that had been acquired by Mills and had led to his company getting the BBC commission.
It also cast doubt on some of the wilder claims published by the tabloids, and contained the first interview with Jane Tanner, one of the McCanns' companions on the holiday in Praia de Luz last May, who said that she was certain she had seen a girl who looked like Madeleine being carried in the street by a strange man around the time she is thought to have disappeared. But the programme avoided firm conclusions.
Having handed the film's editing over to a colleague, Mills emailed Smith on Monday, the day before transmission, saying he felt compelled to remove both his name and his company's from the credits. 'In part this is because its muddled structure and lack of narrative drive means it is far below the standard of any work that I or my company would wish to be associated with,' the email said. 'In part, too, my decision reflects the programme's intellectual impoverishment. The McCann case poses issues of real importance which Panorama should have examined. That it is instead running a laboured, pedestrian, extended news report is shameful.
'But the most important reason for my decision is that because the programme is insufficiently analytical it verges on the dishonest. Our lengthy investigation revealed that there is no meaningful evidence against the McCanns... The real question must be how, without any meaningful evidence, the Portuguese police and the media in Portugal and Britain have been able to convince most people that the couple were involved.'
Mills had been working closely with a CBS team, which also used the video diary footage. They, he told Smith, had concluded it was 'ludicrous' and 'crazy' to think the McCanns could have caused the death or disappearance.
Smith emailed Mills back, accusing him of wanting to broadcast 'advocate journalism', and pointing out that the broadcast version did describe some of the allegations against the McCanns as 'tenuous, to put it mildly'. Smith said that, while it was true that the programme 'changed substantively,' this was because 'it is a current affairs programme and it was overtaken by events'. He added: 'To get Jane Tanner and some of the McCann family meant that some of the other stuff moved to the edge, and the original version was just not journalistically as important.'
Mills disagrees. 'So far as I can see, investigative journalism at the BBC is over,' he said. 'The broadcast script contains nuances that suggest that the McCanns still have a case to answer. The BBC should have had the courage to state that this is simply not so.'
Clarence Mitchell, the former BBC reporter who is the McCanns' spokesman, said Kate and Gerry were 'content' with the broadcast version and accepted that events meant it had to change. He said they had spoken to Bilton and told him they considered the film to be 'fair'.
Other McCann family members were less happy. John, Gerry's brother, whose interview was broadcast, said: 'It wasn't the programme that I was told they were going to make. They've made something very different, and I am disappointed, because I'd hoped the full story was going to be told. Nevertheless I'm pleased they interviewed Jane Tanner. She said she saw Madeleine being abducted, and we want people to remember that.'
The row follows controversies over previous films this year, such as a report on Scientology by former Observer journalist John Sweeney, in which he lost his temper and turned - in his words - into an 'exploding tomato,' and a story claiming that wi-fi technology might be harmful, which was denounced by some scientists as 'irresponsible'.
As someone who once spent a year reporting for Panorama myself, I know that no BBC programme is more closely scrutinised and, sometimes, fought over. The fact remains some of its most distinguished contributors, including Tom Mangold and John Ware, have left in recent years, and that it has been repeatedly accused of punching below its weight. Mills is not a marginal figure, and the CBS film with which he was collaborating was much firmer in its conclusion that the McCanns had to be innocent.
Last night the BBC hierarchy was closing ranks to resist Mills's arguments. Outside the corporation, they may not be as easily dismissed.
'Your programme verges on the dishonest'
From: David
Sent: 19 November, 2007 12:12
To: 'Sandy Smith'
Subject: credit
Dear Sandy,
As you know, in the end I felt I could not leave either my name or my company credit on the programme.
In part this is because its muddled structure and lack of narrative drive means it is far below the standard of any work that I or my company would wish to be associated with.
In part, too, my decision reflects the programme's intellectual impoverishment. The McCann case poses issues of real importance which Panorama should have examined. That it is instead running a laboured, pedestrian extended news report is shameful.
But the most important reason for my decision is that because the programme is insufficiently analytical; it verges on the dishonest. Our lengthy investigation revealed that there is no meaningful evidence against the McCanns. Our CBS colleagues concluded that it was 'ludicrous' and 'crazy' to think them involved and that ... 'the child was abducted'.
The real question must be how, without any meaningful evidence, the Portuguese police and the media in Portugal and Britain have been able to convince most people that the couple were involved. Yet while the programme drips innuendos against the McCanns, it does not put a single challenging question to anyone in the Portuguese police or to anyone in the media. This is truly astonishing.
David Mills
BBC Television industry
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/nov/25/bbc
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on February 16, 2015, 12:31:13 PM
I don't understand how an analytical investigation of the PJ's conduct in the case could have been made before the release of the files. It is intersting though that those screaming the loudest for Amaral's head over his supposed breach of judicial secrecy would have been supportive of facts under that very same law being revealed in this programme, albeit in a McCann-friendly narrative.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: carlymichelle on February 16, 2015, 12:47:54 PM
wow that sky news documentry is intresting he said you could NOT see the mcanns apartment from the tapas bar
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on February 16, 2015, 02:04:33 PM
Way back in 2007 respected documentary makers among others were expressing concerns about the balance of the coverage being given to Madeleine McCann's story by the media: as if on cue verification was given that the programme envisaged by David Mills was altered to the extent he removed his name from the credits of the programme.
quote Two weeks before transmission last Tuesday, Mills - one of Britain's most respected documentary-makers, who in his 40-year career has made 120 investigative films for broadcasters including the BBC, Granada, Thames and America's CBS - walked out of the programme after a furious row with Panorama's editor, Sandy Smith, over the programme's approach and argument. end quote
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/nov/25/bbc
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on February 16, 2015, 02:15:51 PM
Way back in 2007 respected documentary makers among others were expressing concerns about the balance of the coverage being given to Madeleine McCann's story by the media: as if on cue verification was given that the programme envisaged by David Mills was altered to the extent he removed his name from the credits of the programme.
quote Two weeks before transmission last Tuesday, Mills - one of Britain's most respected documentary-makers, who in his 40-year career has made 120 investigative films for broadcasters including the BBC, Granada, Thames and America's CBS - walked out of the programme after a furious row with Panorama's editor, Sandy Smith, over the programme's approach and argument. end quote
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/nov/25/bbc
I'm sure it did nark Mills that he wasn't allowed to make the propoganda piece he had envisioned, I'd be narked too, though TBH the programme that was shown was still heavily weighted in the McCann's favour IIRC.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on February 16, 2015, 02:48:45 PM
I'm not quite sure why those 'close to the top' who altered the programme to be made about Madeleine McCann's case chose to do so rather than go with the professional opinion of David Mills; which was based on the type of research on which he had made his name as a respected and renowned documentary maker.
I think they made a grave error in not continuing with the original concept and I think Mills was correct to defend his professional reputation and his integrity by removing his name.
quote The incident - one of several controversies Panorama has faced this year - suggests, Mills said, that 'the BBC is no longer interested in serious current affairs'. BBC sources confirmed last night that the decisions about the programme's shape had been taken 'close to the top' of the BBC management hierarchy - which has already conducted a series of internal meetings over how the corporation should approach McCann case coverage in general. end quote http://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/nov/25/bbc
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 16, 2015, 03:34:41 PM
I'm not quite sure why those 'close to the top' who altered the programme to be made about Madeleine McCann's case chose to do so rather than go with the professional opinion of David Mills; which was based on the type of research on which he had made his name as a respected and renowned documentary maker.
I think they made a grave error in not continuing with the original concept and I think Mills was correct to defend his professional reputation and his integrity by removing his name.
quote The incident - one of several controversies Panorama has faced this year - suggests, Mills said, that 'the BBC is no longer interested in serious current affairs'. BBC sources confirmed last night that the decisions about the programme's shape had been taken 'close to the top' of the BBC management hierarchy - which has already conducted a series of internal meetings over how the corporation should approach McCann case coverage in general. end quote http://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/nov/25/bbc
Simple they are paid to do it. They are responsible for looking after the Corporations interests. Which interests may not necessarily be the same the "artistic creative" producer.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on February 16, 2015, 03:41:37 PM
It would appear the Panorama programme wasn't the only one that Mills was involved in which it was felt the producers weren't subjective enough about the focus of their documentary.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on February 16, 2015, 05:49:40 PM
What wasn't yet evident in 2007 to the majority of people who had been subjected to headlines such as ...
Daily Express ... DNA PUTS PARENTS IN FRAME
Daily Express ... WE CAN PROVE PARENTS DID IT
Daily Mirror ... DID YOU KILL HER BY ACCIDENT?
... was that it was all based on a campaign of deliberate media manipulation controlled by a 'source close to the investigation' and designed to cast Madeleine McCann's parents in the worst possible light.
The success of which is attested to the beliefs held by some up to the present day ... perhaps if the PANORAMA programme had been allowed to plough a straight furrow ... many more people could have been alerted at a much earlier date to the nature and intent of the misinformation which had flooded the headlines.
It seems no dissenting voices were to escape "the cutting room floor" so is it any wonder people weren't being given information and the opportunity to judge it for themselves?
quote As one of those interviewed by Mills and the programme's reporter, Richard Bilton, I can attest to how different the programme shown was to what they told me less than a month ago that they were envisaging. Along with The Observer's Ned Temko, who has covered the case for this newspaper, I ended up on the cutting-room floor. At that stage - as Mills's draft script makes plain - his intention was to make an analytical, investigative programme that would have been very critical of the Portuguese police, not only for the errors in their investigation, but for their apparent campaign of disinformation designed to put pressure on Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann. It would also have criticised both the local and British press over allegations that they recycled unfounded rumours with little sign of fact-checking or detachment. end quote http://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/nov/25/bbc
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 16, 2015, 06:21:09 PM
From the Guardian article linked:
Clarence Mitchell, the former BBC reporter who is the McCanns' spokesman, said Kate and Gerry were 'content' with the broadcast version and accepted that events meant it had to change. He said they had spoken to Bilton and told him they considered the film to be 'fair'.
How does one square that then?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lyall on February 16, 2015, 07:40:11 PM
What wasn't yet evident in 2007 to the majority of people who had been subjected to headlines such as ...
Daily Express ... DNA PUTS PARENTS IN FRAME
Daily Express ... WE CAN PROVE PARENTS DID IT
Daily Mirror ... DID YOU KILL HER BY ACCIDENT?
... was that it was all based on a campaign of deliberate media manipulation controlled by a 'source close to the investigation' and designed to cast Madeleine McCann's parents in the worst possible light.
The success of which is attested to the beliefs held by some up to the present day ... perhaps if the PANORAMA programme had been allowed to plough a straight furrow ... many more people could have been alerted at a much earlier date to the nature and intent of the misinformation which had flooded the headlines.
It seems no dissenting voices were to escape "the cutting room floor" so is it any wonder people weren't being given information and the opportunity to judge it for themselves?
quote As one of those interviewed by Mills and the programme's reporter, Richard Bilton, I can attest to how different the programme shown was to what they told me less than a month ago that they were envisaging. Along with The Observer's Ned Temko, who has covered the case for this newspaper, I ended up on the cutting-room floor. At that stage - as Mills's draft script makes plain - his intention was to make an analytical, investigative programme that would have been very critical of the Portuguese police, not only for the errors in their investigation, but for their apparent campaign of disinformation designed to put pressure on Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann. It would also have criticised both the local and British press over allegations that they recycled unfounded rumours with little sign of fact-checking or detachment. end quote http://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/nov/25/bbc
ITV (Tonight with Trevor Macdonald) had already shown programmes doing exactly what Mills wanted before Panorama was transmitted.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on February 16, 2015, 07:46:44 PM
Clarence Mitchell, the former BBC reporter who is the McCanns' spokesman, said Kate and Gerry were 'content' with the broadcast version and accepted that events meant it had to change. He said they had spoken to Bilton and told him they considered the film to be 'fair'.
How does one square that then?
Comparatively speaking it wan't on a par with the utter rubbish they had become familiar with and was probably quite a refreshing little break for them.
It was also publicity welcomed by a couple who were determined to keep Madeleine McCann and her plight in the public domain ... something which was the last thing on the minds of the people responsible for the misinformation being produced day and daily trying to convince that Madeleine was dead.
Their aim of promoting Madeleine's case was met and her parents would be happy with that ... but it is worth noting that the programme which people were told was being made was not the one broadcast ... and not everyone was content with that ... nor should they have been.
quote Other McCann family members were less happy. John, Gerry's brother, whose interview was broadcast, said: 'It wasn't the programme that I was told they were going to make. They've made something very different, and I am disappointed, because I'd hoped the full story was going to be told. Nevertheless I'm pleased they interviewed Jane Tanner. She said she saw Madeleine being abducted, and we want people to remember that.' end quote http://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/nov/25/bbc
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on February 16, 2015, 08:10:00 PM
Comparatively speaking it wan't on a par with the utter rubbish they had become familiar with and was probably quite a refreshing little break for them.
It was also publicity welcomed by a couple who were determined to keep Madeleine McCann and her plight in the public domain ... something which was the last thing on the minds of the people responsible for the misinformation being produced day and daily trying to convince that Madeleine was dead.
Their aim of promoting Madeleine's case was met and her parents would be happy with that ... but it is worth noting that the programme which people were told was being made was not the one broadcast ... and not everyone was content with that ... nor should they have been.
quote Other McCann family members were less happy. John, Gerry's brother, whose interview was broadcast, said: 'It wasn't the programme that I was told they were going to make. They've made something very different, and I am disappointed, because I'd hoped the full story was going to be told. Nevertheless I'm pleased they interviewed Jane Tanner. She said she saw Madeleine being abducted, and we want people to remember that.' end quote http://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/nov/25/bbc
I'm sure John McCann did want to see a more slanted vehicle for his brother and sister-in-law's claims. Well done to the BBC for making a more balanced expose than some may have wanted.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lyall on February 16, 2015, 10:08:59 PM
You're posting that Mills wasn't happy with it, so I assumed you weren't either. But Mills soon lost interest and went off to follow the Meredith Kercher case instead - he could have made his own film on the McCann case, but didn't. John McCann said "I'd hoped the full story was going to be told", but two months earlier he told Sky News (genuinely I believe) even he didn't know what the full story was. I can understand why Panorama rejected the Mills line and made the programme they did.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on February 17, 2015, 12:00:18 AM
You're posting that Mills wasn't happy with it, so I assumed you weren't either. But Mills soon lost interest and went off to follow the Meredith Kercher case instead - he could have made his own film on the McCann case, but didn't. John McCann said "I'd hoped the full story was going to be told", but two months earlier he told Sky News (genuinely I believe) even he didn't know what the full story was. I can understand why Panorama rejected the Mills line and made the programme they did.
You are correct that David Mills was upset , so much is rather evident, and not without justification imo.
An opportunity was missed to publicise the misinterpretation of the forensic results which resulted in the lurid newspaper headlines seen in the Portuguese and British media and which might have been properly addressed long before legal action raised awareness.
People also had a right to have access to research and information which painted a different picture from the constant manipulative leaks to the press they had been subject to. Pity the powers that be at the BBC didn't think so.
I think it is regrettable that David Mills did not revisit Madeleine's case at a later date maybe some day he will in a different form, but that would be a decision entirely for him to make a judgement on.
However imo the time for the results of his research to be broadcast without reservation was back in 2007 when people were not so aware of the media manipulation directed against Madeleine's parents and could be properly informed about it.
quote It would, as Mills confirmed again yesterday, have scrutinised the various allegations that have been floated against the McCanns and concluded they are baseless: 'We had an investigative team looking into the story for weeks. Our assessment was that the purported DNA evidence was weak and inconclusive, while so far as we could tell the supposedly significant "discrepancies" between the stories told by the McCanns' friends about the night of Madeleine's disappearance amount to very little indeed.' end of quote http://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/nov/25/bbc
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on February 17, 2015, 12:36:47 AM
You are correct that David Mills was upset , so much is rather evident, and not without justification imo.
An opportunity was missed to publicise the misinterpretation of the forensic results which resulted in the lurid newspaper headlines seen in the Portuguese and British media and which might have been properly addressed long before legal action raised awareness.
People also had a right to have access to research and information which painted a different picture from the constant manipulative leaks to the press they had been subject to. Pity the powers that be at the BBC didn't think so.
I think it is regrettable that David Mills did not revisit Madeleine's case at a later date maybe some day he will in a different form, but that would be a decision entirely for him to make a judgement on.
However imo the time for the results of his research to be broadcast without reservation was back in 2007 when people were not so aware of the media manipulation directed against Madeleine's parents and could be properly informed about it.
quote It would, as Mills confirmed again yesterday, have scrutinised the various allegations that have been floated against the McCanns and concluded they are baseless: 'We had an investigative team looking into the story for weeks. Our assessment was that the purported DNA evidence was weak and inconclusive, while so far as we could tell the supposedly significant "discrepancies" between the stories told by the McCanns' friends about the night of Madeleine's disappearance amount to very little indeed.' end of quote http://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/nov/25/bbc
So where was Mills getting his information from ? Certainly not the PJ as why would they want to make themselves look bad. The McCanns, their friends and their employees were the only people, apart from law enforcement, who had access to the information contained within those witness statements. So did they break judicial secrecy to brief Mills on the 'alleged discrepancies' and if that was the case no wonder the BBC chose to tread a more objective path than the one Mills was being lead along.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on February 17, 2015, 07:31:55 AM
You are correct that David Mills was upset , so much is rather evident, and not without justification imo.
An opportunity was missed to publicise the misinterpretation of the forensic results which resulted in the lurid newspaper headlines seen in the Portuguese and British media and which might have been properly addressed long before legal action raised awareness.
People also had a right to have access to research and information which painted a different picture from the constant manipulative leaks to the press they had been subject to. Pity the powers that be at the BBC didn't think so.
I think it is regrettable that David Mills did not revisit Madeleine's case at a later date maybe some day he will in a different form, but that would be a decision entirely for him to make a judgement on.
However imo the time for the results of his research to be broadcast without reservation was back in 2007 when people were not so aware of the media manipulation directed against Madeleine's parents and could be properly informed about it.
quote It would, as Mills confirmed again yesterday, have scrutinised the various allegations that have been floated against the McCanns and concluded they are baseless: 'We had an investigative team looking into the story for weeks. Our assessment was that the purported DNA evidence was weak and inconclusive, while so far as we could tell the supposedly significant "discrepancies" between the stories told by the McCanns' friends about the night of Madeleine's disappearance amount to very little indeed.' end of quote http://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/nov/25/bbc
It would, as Mills confirmed again yesterday, have scrutinised the various allegations that have been floated against the McCanns and concluded they are baseless: 'We had an investigative team looking into the story for weeks. Our assessment was that the purported DNA evidence was weak and inconclusive, while so far as we could tell the supposedly significant "discrepancies" between the stories told by the McCanns' friends about the night of Madeleine's disappearance amount to very little indeed.'
So yet more ..very strong support for the McCanns from a very experienced journalist
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 17, 2015, 08:14:58 AM
Any journalist who looks at this case completely objectively and who comes to the conclusion that the McCanns did not stage an abduction will obviously be accused of being a McCann backer with no ethics, isn't that true Stephen?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on February 17, 2015, 09:52:15 AM
Now Alfred , do you accept journalists can look at the available evidence and the changing accounts of the mccanns and associates and come to the conclusion the 'abduction' was made up ?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2015, 09:58:29 AM
Now Alfred , do you accept journalists can look at the available evidence and the changing accounts of the mccanns and associates and come to the conclusion the 'abduction' was made up ?
Not really, No. It would still remain his opinion. So let's see the cites.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Benice on February 17, 2015, 10:10:01 AM
Any journalist who looks at this case completely objectively and who comes to the conclusion that the McCanns did not stage an abduction will obviously be accused of being a McCann backer with no ethics, isn't that true Stephen?
For some bizarre reason, which no sceptic has every explained - anyone and everyone - especially those who are in the public eye or are connected to the case who show the slightest support for the McCanns - automatically have to be 'trashed' on a personal basis. The list is a long one. It's been a familiar pattern throughout this case. It is also completely irrational imo.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on February 17, 2015, 10:18:43 AM
For some bizarre reason, which no sceptic has every explained - anyone and everyone - especially those who are in the public eye or are connected to the case who show the slightest support for the McCanns - automatically have to be 'trashed' on a personal basis. The list is a long one. It's been a familiar pattern throughout this case. It is also completely irrational imo.
I think that's true on both sides Benice.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lyall on February 17, 2015, 11:13:21 AM
Goes right back to 2007 I believe Benice when it was perceived newspaper writers cared more about what some were saying about the parents than they did about the actual fate of the child.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: xtina on February 25, 2015, 12:05:24 PM
should be interesting...
NOTE THIS IS A PRE-ORDER - THE FILM WILL BE DISPATCHED ON THE RELEASE DATE 3.4.2015
Filmed in 2014/2015, DVD PAL 16:9, By Richard D. Hall
2 Part DVD Film
Following on from his earlier series of films about the Madeleine McCann mystery, Richard D. Hall examines in a level of detail never covered before in any TV documentary, the claims that Madeleine was abducted. Numerous sightings of a man were reported to the police on different dates following the disappearance. This film examines the credibility of these sightings by looking at police witness statements, media reports and other evidence. After a thorough and extensive examination of all this evidence, the most likely conclusion is laid bare for all to see. Once you have watched the documentary, your perception of mainstream media and establishment groups such as The BBC, The Cabinet Office, Scotland Yard and British Intelligence may well need a dramatic adjustment.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Eleanor on February 25, 2015, 12:40:30 PM
Thanks for that, Xtina.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on February 28, 2015, 01:14:46 AM
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Cape-Town-girl-found-17-years-after-kidnapping-20150227 Cape Town girl found 17 years after kidnapping 2015-02-27 08:30
Cape Town - An incredible coincidence has led to a family finding their daughter 17 years after she was snatched from her sleeping mother’s arms.
A DNA test has confirmed the girl's identity. She was taken from her mother when she was just 3-days-old in April 1997, reported the Cape Argus.
Her biological sister started Grade 8 at the same school that the 17-year-old attends and other pupils started noticing the striking resemblance between the two.
After the two sisters struck up a friendship, her biological family invited the matric pupil over for coffee and, after seeing the likeness themselves, contacted police.
A 50-year-old woman was arrested by the Hawks at her home in Lavender Hill, reported Netwerk24. She will appear in the Cape Town Magistrate’s Court on Friday.
The arrested woman and her husband have no other children.
In a 2010 interview with the Weekend Argus, the girl's father said he would never give up hope of finding his daughter.
For now, she is in the care of the Western Cape’s social services department, says eNCA reporter Karyn Maughan.
- For legal reasons the kidnap victim in this case may not be identified. No pictures, including any of the accused or family, may be used as they may identify the victim.
NOTE THIS IS A PRE-ORDER - THE FILM WILL BE DISPATCHED ON THE RELEASE DATE 3.4.2015
Filmed in 2014/2015, DVD PAL 16:9, By Richard D. Hall
2 Part DVD Film
Following on from his earlier series of films about the Madeleine McCann mystery, Richard D. Hall examines in a level of detail never covered before in any TV documentary, the claims that Madeleine was abducted. Numerous sightings of a man were reported to the police on different dates following the disappearance. This film examines the credibility of these sightings by looking at police witness statements, media reports and other evidence. After a thorough and extensive examination of all this evidence, the most likely conclusion is laid bare for all to see. Once you have watched the documentary, your perception of mainstream media and establishment groups such as The BBC, The Cabinet Office, Scotland Yard and British Intelligence may well need a dramatic adjustment.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Cape-Town-girl-found-17-years-after-kidnapping-20150227 Cape Town girl found 17 years after kidnapping 2015-02-27 08:30
Cape Town - An incredible coincidence has led to a family finding their daughter 17 years after she was snatched from her sleeping mother’s arms.
A DNA test has confirmed the girl's identity. She was taken from her mother when she was just 3-days-old in April 1997, reported the Cape Argus.
Her biological sister started Grade 8 at the same school that the 17-year-old attends and other pupils started noticing the striking resemblance between the two.
After the two sisters struck up a friendship, her biological family invited the matric pupil over for coffee and, after seeing the likeness themselves, contacted police.
A 50-year-old woman was arrested by the Hawks at her home in Lavender Hill, reported Netwerk24. She will appear in the Cape Town Magistrate’s Court on Friday.
The arrested woman and her husband have no other children.
In a 2010 interview with the Weekend Argus, the girl's father said he would never give up hope of finding his daughter.
For now, she is in the care of the Western Cape’s social services department, says eNCA reporter Karyn Maughan.
- For legal reasons the kidnap victim in this case may not be identified. No pictures, including any of the accused or family, may be used as they may identify the victim.
I think it is instructive that it is wrong just to write people off as being dead when they disappear without trace unless there is proof that is the case.
Although it can no longer be found on the Sky News link I found the following interesting ...
**snip Joana’s relatives told Sky News Online the pair are innocent and believe whoever took the girl is also behind Madeleine’s disappearance, seven miles away in Praia da Luz.
The family, who do not want to be named, said: “This sort of thing doesn’t happen in Portugal – child abductions are very rare.
“Whoever took Joana took Madeleine too, the distance is too small. And the police ignored everything we told them, they just wanted to solve the case quickly.
“They didn’t look at any of the things we told them about.”
They said the most crucial bit of evidence was a white and brown camper van, parked near Joana’s home in the days before she was abducted.
The vehicle, with German number plates, disappeared around the time she vanished.
They added: “There was a man living in there, but he hardly left the van. A week later the van was found abandoned in farmland in Praia da Luz. We told the police to investigate it, but they didn’t listen to us.”
She said the man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old.
A suspect in the Madeleine case, spotted acting suspiciously near the apartment where she vanished on May 3 last year, was described as between 35 and 40, with long, straggly hair.
Criminologist and child protection expert Mark Williams-Thomas believes there are far too many similarities between the two cases for it not to be a strong line of police inquiry.
He says that because of the huge doubts over the Cipriano convictions, whoever abducted Joana is more than likely to be behind Madeleine’s disappearance.
Like Madeleine’s case, the police investigation got off to a bad start, with officers failing to seal off the house where she was last seen.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on February 28, 2015, 08:42:23 AM
I think it is instructive that it is wrong just to write people off as being dead when they disappear without trace unless there is proof that is the case.
Although it can no longer be found on the Sky News link I found the following interesting ...
**snip Joana’s relatives told Sky News Online the pair are innocent and believe whoever took the girl is also behind Madeleine’s disappearance, seven miles away in Praia da Luz.
The family, who do not want to be named, said: “This sort of thing doesn’t happen in Portugal – child abductions are very rare.
“Whoever took Joana took Madeleine too, the distance is too small. And the police ignored everything we told them, they just wanted to solve the case quickly.
“They didn’t look at any of the things we told them about.”
They said the most crucial bit of evidence was a white and brown camper van, parked near Joana’s home in the days before she was abducted.
The vehicle, with German number plates, disappeared around the time she vanished.
They added: “There was a man living in there, but he hardly left the van. A week later the van was found abandoned in farmland in Praia da Luz. We told the police to investigate it, but they didn’t listen to us.”
She said the man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old.
A suspect in the Madeleine case, spotted acting suspiciously near the apartment where she vanished on May 3 last year, was described as between 35 and 40, with long, straggly hair.
Criminologist and child protection expert Mark Williams-Thomas believes there are far too many similarities between the two cases for it not to be a strong line of police inquiry.
He says that because of the huge doubts over the Cipriano convictions, whoever abducted Joana is more than likely to be behind Madeleine’s disappearance.
Like Madeleine’s case, the police investigation got off to a bad start, with officers failing to seal off the house where she was last seen.
so MWT questioned the Cipriano convictions...very interesting
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on February 28, 2015, 08:54:57 AM
MWT has already made his views known with his Maddie wandered off comment ignoring the open window & shutters, which were most definitely open according to Kate.
I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment.
She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar.
MWT has already proven what a total bell end he is with his Maddie wandered off imaginings, ignoring the open window & shutters, which were most definitely open according to Kate, who isn't lying honest guv.
I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment.
She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar.
I think it is instructive that it is wrong just to write people off as being dead when they disappear without trace unless there is proof that is the case.
Although it can no longer be found on the Sky News link I found the following interesting ...
**snip Joana’s relatives told Sky News Online the pair are innocent and believe whoever took the girl is also behind Madeleine’s disappearance, seven miles away in Praia da Luz.
The family, who do not want to be named, said: “This sort of thing doesn’t happen in Portugal – child abductions are very rare.
“Whoever took Joana took Madeleine too, the distance is too small. And the police ignored everything we told them, they just wanted to solve the case quickly.
“They didn’t look at any of the things we told them about.”
They said the most crucial bit of evidence was a white and brown camper van, parked near Joana’s home in the days before she was abducted.
The vehicle, with German number plates, disappeared around the time she vanished.
They added: “There was a man living in there, but he hardly left the van. A week later the van was found abandoned in farmland in Praia da Luz. We told the police to investigate it, but they didn’t listen to us.”
She said the man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old.
A suspect in the Madeleine case, spotted acting suspiciously near the apartment where she vanished on May 3 last year, was described as between 35 and 40, with long, straggly hair.
Criminologist and child protection expert Mark Williams-Thomas believes there are far too many similarities between the two cases for it not to be a strong line of police inquiry.
He says that because of the huge doubts over the Cipriano convictions, whoever abducted Joana is more than likely to be behind Madeleine’s disappearance.
Like Madeleine’s case, the police investigation got off to a bad start, with officers failing to seal off the house where she was last seen.
An unnamed and unidentifiable family member claiming evidence that can no longer be checked and a series of non-direct quotes from MWT. Is this supposed to be evidence ?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on February 28, 2015, 10:13:10 AM
An unnamed and unidentifiable family member claiming evidence that can no longer be checked and a series of non-direct quotes from MWT. Is this supposed to be evidence ?
more of an indication....like the dog's alerts
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on April 10, 2015, 07:34:43 AM
Quote This May, Missing People supporters will be giving up something they love to raise money to support those suffering the real heartache of missing someone they love.
There are loads of ways to get involved, spread the word and raise vital funds to support our work with families.
We've also created resources and materials to help you on your #MissForMay journey. Unquote
What is 'ironical' about a fund raising appeal to support the families of missing people? That is what the charity does.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on April 17, 2015, 12:07:40 AM
http://blacksmithbureau.blogspot.co.uk
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on April 17, 2015, 08:02:17 AM
Credit where credit's due: Smiffy has the MSM's talent for churning out a 1000 words about absolutely nothing #nonewsdayagain
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on April 18, 2015, 02:20:05 AM
Comparatively speaking it wan't on a par with the utter rubbish they had become familiar with and was probably quite a refreshing little break for them.
It was also publicity welcomed by a couple who were determined to keep Madeleine McCann and her plight in the public domain ... something which was the last thing on the minds of the people responsible for the misinformation being produced day and daily trying to convince that Madeleine was dead.
Their aim of promoting Madeleine's case was met and her parents would be happy with that ... but it is worth noting that the programme which people were told was being made was not the one broadcast ... and not everyone was content with that ... nor should they have been.
quote Other McCann family members were less happy. John, Gerry's brother, whose interview was broadcast, said: 'It wasn't the programme that I was told they were going to make. They've made something very different, and I am disappointed, because I'd hoped the full story was going to be told. Nevertheless I'm pleased they interviewed Jane Tanner. She said she saw Madeleine being abducted, and we want people to remember that.' end quote http://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/nov/25/bbc
Why would the bbc make a documentary that was detrimental in any way to the family of a missung child?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 18, 2015, 09:34:26 AM
I do not understand the point you are trying to make ... are you sure you have directed your query to the correct poster.
I wasn't trying to make any point. I replied to your post which said the family and friends were unhappy with the bbc documentary. If it wasn't detrimental why would they be unhappy? That's all.
PS Yes, i am sure I directed my query to the right poster, I did quote you. Doh
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 19, 2015, 01:40:19 AM
I wasn't trying to make any point. I replied to your post which said the family and friends were unhappy with the bbc documentary. If it wasn't detrimental why would they be unhappy? That's all.
PS Yes, i am sure I directed my query to the right poster, I did quote you. Doh
Then you would have to direct the question to those you think might be able to provide you with an answer.
I have not made any reference to the documentary being detrimental. I have posted on the controversy caused among the professional broadcasters when the original concept was abandoned leading to the resignation of one.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: lordpookles on April 24, 2015, 05:18:19 PM
Thank you LP. Someone has already provided the link ... it appears posters have been underwhelmed though since I've seen no comments as yet. Maybe no-one has the time to watch. I understand it may have caused some argument on a FB page ... "was it or wasn't it".
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Eleanor on April 24, 2015, 06:08:10 PM
How long is it? Is it going to be as boring as his others? Does it actually tell us anything that we haven't already heard?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: lordpookles on April 24, 2015, 06:15:33 PM
I liked the last documentary initially as he seemed to be sticking to the facts - at least as far as i'm aware. After that I saw the subject matter of his other documentaries and he lost a lot of credibility in my eyes. I do like the fact that he has posted retractions on his website when people have written in pointing out inaccuracies.
Just started watching first 15 mins of this one and it's made in exactly the style as the last and sceptical of the McCanns of course. It looks interesting imo as it seems to be tackling more up to date topics such as the elimination of tannerman by the SY and the efits of the smith sightings. In fact the whole doc is about various sightings of possible abductors over the years. Doc is 2 and a half hours long - see how far I will get!
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Eleanor on April 24, 2015, 06:47:35 PM
I liked the last documentary initially as he seemed to be sticking to the facts - at least as far as i'm aware. After that I saw the subject matter of his other documentaries and he lost a lot of credibility in my eyes. I do like the fact that he has posted retractions on his website when people have written in pointing out inaccuracies.
Just started watching first 15 mins of this one and it's made in exactly the style as the last and sceptical of the McCanns of course. It looks interesting imo as it seems to be tackling more up to date topics such as the elimination of tannerman by the SY and the efits of the smith sightings. In fact the whole doc is about various sightings of possible abductors over the years. Doc is 2 and a half hours long - see how far I will get!
Two and a half hours? Good God. But please all feel free to watch it. I don't expect to be joining you. There is a limit to Duty. I do my best, but this is pushing it.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on April 24, 2015, 07:53:21 PM
I am pleased to see that Mr Hall shares the same scepticism I do regarding Smithman. Just as well Crecheman came forward, complete with blanket, to prove that Smithman really was a different person to Tannerman.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 24, 2015, 07:59:07 PM
I am pleased to see that Mr Hall shares the same scepticism I do regarding Smithman. Just as well Crecheman came forward, complete with blanket, to prove that Smithman really was a different person to Tannerman.
Might be of interest to watch that bit ... but two and a half hours of everything else!!! definitely not for the faint hearted or anyone who has a life.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Gadfly2.1 on April 24, 2015, 08:13:18 PM
The Hall documentary - had to be a conspiracy of MI5 et al just didn't it. You have to admire this man's dedication to studying the case. What an effort. Genuinely think that proving a grand conspiracy (that didn't take place) is more important to this internet faction of David Icke wannabees than the little girl at the centre of this family tragedy.
Yet on the other hand, he did highlight something important. His analysis did accidentally stumble across the reason that Gerry changed his story as far as the front door was concerned. And the even more alert among you surely noticed Gerry's even greater contradiction on the documentary when he revisited Luz. Pay careful attention to what he says when MO talks about doing a check on that night.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 24, 2015, 08:26:15 PM
The Hall documentary - had to be a conspiracy of MI5 et al just didn't it. You have to admire this man's dedication to studying the case. What an effort. Genuinely think that proving a grand conspiracy (that didn't take place) is more important to this internet faction of David Icke wannabees than the little girl at the centre of this family tragedy.
Yet on the other hand, he did highlight something important. His analysis did accidentally stumble across the reason that Gerry changed his story as far as the front door was concerned. And the even more alert among you surely noticed Gerry's even greater contradiction on the documentary when he revisited Luz. Pay careful attention to what he says when MO talks about doing a check on that night.
LOL the disputed front and back doors rear their heads yet again for the deliberately confused ... if your second para is indicative of the content of the video ... think it may be worth giving it a miss.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Eleanor on April 24, 2015, 08:36:15 PM
LOL the disputed front and back doors rear their heads yet again for the deliberately confused ... if your second para is indicative of the content of the video ... think it may be worth giving it a miss.
We all had a problem with the front and back door in the beginning, not unsurprisingly. And it is easy to see why. And anyone who can't see this must be nuts.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lyall on April 24, 2015, 08:49:19 PM
I am pleased to see that Mr Hall shares the same scepticism I do regarding Smithman. Just as well Crecheman came forward, complete with blanket, to prove that Smithman really was a different person to Tannerman.
Of course he shares that scepticism. It's necessary for his anti-RM grand plan.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 24, 2015, 09:05:19 PM
Because they choose to, however galling you might find it.
Not to mention that it can prove to be a very lucrative choice for some of the less talented video makers of our generation.
I don't find it galling in the slightest that people like that have a following ... just rather pathetic and sad.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: lordpookles on April 24, 2015, 11:24:08 PM
Some interesting moments on the whole. I fell asleep twice though, so maybe not that interesting! Think I missed a bit about Robert Murat, but it's mainly all about Tannerman/Sagresman/Smithman.
In the conclusion of the doc he seems to be suggesting some kind of conspiracy involving the 3 sightings; Tannerman, Sagresman and Smithman. Just another theory to be added to the list imo along with bloodlines, woke and wandered, abductors, parents etc... An interesting moment is in regard to the efits that are believed to be from the Smith sighting, but he believes Mr Redwood was economical with his words on Crimewatch and suggests maybe the efits are from witnesses not known to the public or even I assume completely made up as some kind of cunning establishment conspiracy(RM also seems to be part of his theory but not sure how that fits in). I have heard others on here make arguments that the Smith efits were unlikely to be from the Smiths themselves. In fairness at times he makes some compelling points.
I like the effort/research this guy appears to put in, but seems like he's definitely a conspiracy theorist. Some of this is interesting, but at moments he makes massive leaps in conclusion without imo applying the necessary logic or argument. In the absence of information/evidence it's easy to speculate and end up somewhere completely ridiculous...
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on April 25, 2015, 01:35:14 AM
Sound likes it may have a blamange type mixture of truth and gumpf, think I will give it a miss. I can check the PJ files which are availablle online for all facts and figures.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 25, 2015, 11:09:09 AM
Some interesting moments on the whole. I fell asleep twice though, so maybe not that interesting! Think I missed a bit about Robert Murat, but it's mainly all about Tannerman/Sagresman/Smithman.
In the conclusion of the doc he seems to be suggesting some kind of conspiracy involving the 3 sightings; Tannerman, Sagresman and Smithman. Just another theory to be added to the list imo along with bloodlines, woke and wandered, abductors, parents etc... An interesting moment is in regard to the efits that are believed to be from the Smith sighting, but he believes Mr Redwood was economical with his words on Crimewatch and suggests maybe the efits are from witnesses not known to the public or even I assume completely made up as some kind of cunning establishment conspiracy(RM also seems to be part of his theory but not sure how that fits in). I have heard others on here make arguments that the Smith efits were unlikely to be from the Smiths themselves. In fairness at times he makes some compelling points.
I like the effort/research this guy appears to put in, but seems like he's definitely a conspiracy theorist. Some of this is interesting, but at moments he makes massive leaps in conclusion without imo applying the necessary logic or argument. In the absence of information/evidence it's easy to speculate and end up somewhere completely ridiculous...
Thank you, LP ;) You deserve a medal for sitting through that ... I'm not curious enough to subject myself to it yet though and I don't know if I wish to contribute to the coffers of someone who insults what little intelligence I have with a rehash of every disproved conspiracy myth under the sun with a couple of tweeks added.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Gadfly2.1 on April 25, 2015, 01:59:23 PM
"Thus, at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door being locked, and went to the children's bedroom and noted that the twins and Madeleine were in perfect condition. He then went to the toilet, where he remained for a few instants, left the apartment."
May 4.
"He walked the normal route up to the back door, which being open he only had to slide, and while he was entering the living room, he noticed that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought was strange, having then thought that possibly MADELEINE had got up to go to sleep in his bedroom, so as to avoid the noise produced by her siblings. Therefore, he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact with each of them, checking and he is certain of this, that the three were deeply asleep. He left the children's bedroom returning to place the door how he had already previously described, then went to the bathroom…. He adds that he did not enter any other part of the residence, where he was for only two or three minutes, leaving yet again through the back door."
May 10.
Why did he change his story? I know. Do you?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Gadfly2.1 on April 25, 2015, 02:16:40 PM
"Thus, at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door being locked, and went to the children's bedroom and noted that the twins and Madeleine were in perfect condition. He then went to the toilet, where he remained for a few instants, left the apartment."
May 4.
"He walked the normal route up to the back door, which being open he only had to slide, and while he was entering the living room, he noticed that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought was strange, having then thought that possibly MADELEINE had got up to go to sleep in his bedroom, so as to avoid the noise produced by her siblings. Therefore, he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact with each of them, checking and he is certain of this, that the three were deeply asleep. He left the children's bedroom returning to place the door how he had already previously described, then went to the bathroom…. He adds that he did not enter any other part of the residence, where he was for only two or three minutes, leaving yet again through the back door."
May 10.
Why did he change his story? I know. Do you?
--
Just wish to add this to:
"And part of the reason we ended up coming through the back was the noise coming through the front door."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na4aBr5PTYY (4 minutes 30 in here).
Again - If you study the development of the first week of the case, you'll understand the evolution of the statement. That is unless you are willing to accept that the PJ were completely unprofessional and mistranslated...
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Gadfly2.1 on April 25, 2015, 02:23:42 PM
And further to the above notes, this was also distributed to major newspaper outlets via a 'family friend' in mid-September 2007: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1563738/Madeleine-McCann-Gerry-certain-he-was-in-bedroom-with-kidnapper.html
'Agonisingly, he is now sure that standing behind this door was his four-year-old daughter's abductor, waiting to steal her from her bed in the Praia da Luz." (Telegraph - how the source told it to Caroline Gammell of the DT on the 21st of September).
"According to the friend, the intruder would have hidden himself somewhere else in the flat - possibly the bathroom or the master bedroom -whilst Mr McCann checked on his children." (Daily Mail - how the 'friend' briefed the DM journalist on the 21st September)
Again, I know why the story changed. Do you?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Gadfly2.1 on April 25, 2015, 02:34:43 PM
And in the 10th May statement, Gerry 'clarifies' the 4th May statement noting: "Concerning the front door, although he is certain that it was closed, it is unlikely that it was locked, because they left through the back door."
Again, study what happened in the first week of the case, and you'll understand that there might be a different explanation for this change in memory.
One of the few decent things to come out of this Hall documentary is that one or two of these themes are accidentally touched upon.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 26, 2015, 01:47:55 AM
4 May 2007 Channel 4 News Report
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 26, 2015, 08:57:22 PM
Another interesting post PF ... we are familiar with the technician dusting the window wearing one glove ... at 1:17 in the channel four news report did you happen to notice that she was exhaling from her mouth directly onto the area she was dusting. Surely a rather unique technique.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on April 26, 2015, 09:10:43 PM
Another interesting post PF ... we are familiar with the technician dusting the window wearing one glove ... at 1:17 in the channel four news report did you happen to notice that she was exhaling from her mouth directly onto the area she was dusting. Surely a rather unique technique.
I think this Wiki article explains why the technician exhaled onto the dust. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerprint_powder *snipped* Powders may be applied with a fingerprint brush, a brush with extremely fine fibers designed to hold powder, and deposit it gently on the fingerprint to be revealed, without rubbing away the often delicate residue of the fingerprint itself. They may also be applied by blowing the powder across the fingerprint, or by pouring the powder onto the print, and then blowing away the excess.
Magnetic powders are also used, where a fine magnetic powder is held by a magnetic applicator, which may then be gently moved across the fingerprint. As no bristles touch the surface, this often damages the print less than other methods of developing the print.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 26, 2015, 11:08:30 PM
I think this Wiki article explains why the technician exhaled onto the dust. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerprint_powder *snipped* Powders may be applied with a fingerprint brush, a brush with extremely fine fibers designed to hold powder, and deposit it gently on the fingerprint to be revealed, without rubbing away the often delicate residue of the fingerprint itself. They may also be applied by blowing the powder across the fingerprint, or by pouring the powder onto the print, and then blowing away the excess.
Magnetic powders are also used, where a fine magnetic powder is held by a magnetic applicator, which may then be gently moved across the fingerprint. As no bristles touch the surface, this often damages the print less than other methods of developing the print.
Thanks Misty, but don't you think a puffer would be used, some of which have a soft brush attached ... exhaled breath is surely a contaminant?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on April 26, 2015, 11:55:22 PM
Thanks Misty, but don't you think a puffer would be used, some of which have a soft brush attached ... exhaled breath is surely a contaminant?
The powder itself must surely be a contaminant if DNA sampling is to be undertaken. The purpose of the powder is to stick to the ridges of secretions left by the finger/palm, which can help provide the unique fingerprint profile.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 27, 2015, 12:19:35 AM
The powder itself must surely be a contaminant if DNA sampling is to be undertaken. The purpose of the powder is to stick to the ridges of secretions left by the finger/palm, which can help provide the unique fingerprint profile.
Just found a site which gives instruction on methods for successfully lifting prints ... doh! I didn't realise that the powder actually developed the print and that too much can destroy the evidence.
I know that dusting for fingerprints can be a messy business so didn't pay too much attention to the amount used in the apartment ... but that could explain why so many prints were unusable.
It is quite an interesting read and it does say as I thought that blowers should be used but with an admission ...
**snip Use the brush or a puffer bulb gently to remove any excess powder. (Okay, we admit it; we used our mouths to puff off excess powder, but that’s a horrible practice.) You can also use canned air if you do so extremely carefully, keeping the canned air nozzle far enough away from the dusted print to avoid blowing away everything, including the print. If you have a camera, shoot an image of the revealed print. http://makezine.com/laboratory-81-dusting-and-lifting-l/
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on April 27, 2015, 12:56:25 AM
The destruction of evidence at the "crime scene" happened as much if not MORE by the Mccanns and friends
Several people searched the apartment from OC manager/staff as well as the McCanns friends and of course, the parents. However the GNR did not close the area off and secure the crime scene, as they also searched cupboards, wardrobes etc. Do you think the parents and friends would have, protecting the crime scene, uppermost on their minds at that time?
J.B.. Deputy Specialist J. B. arrived about 00.40/00.50. When they arrived at the scene, which they immediately identified due to the presence of GNR officers, as well as quite a lot of people who were walking around the street searching for the child, they immediately went to the apartment in question, where they found several people, including some GNR officers, as well as the head of the Lagos GNR station.
He states that the people inside the apartment and close to it, entered and left the building and circulated in the whole apartment, completely freely, in other words, without there being any restriction or care in preserving the scene.
He said that these people were the friends of the parents of the missing girl and a lady responsible for the resort called S.B..
He was shown the room the child had disappeared from, having noticed that people also entered and left that room without any care in the sense of preserving traces. Inside this room there were two children, babies, sleeping in two cots placed in the middle of the room.
It was requested that the babies were moved, which was done accordingly, the witness having subsequently put his gloves on to begin the on-site inspection.
At that moment one of the GNR officers told the witness that they had already searched for the girl in the wardrobes and other places in the apartment without having taken any care as to leaving their own traces or for destroying or adulterating any traces that might be of interest to the investigation.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on April 27, 2015, 01:29:25 AM
Anna, my point was about the destruction or not of potential evidence and it being wholly blamed on the police...we know this is untrue (as evidenced by the public prosecutors report and also by the tapas 9)and we also know that despite the Mccanns "knowing" it was a crime scene allowed their friends to meddle with the shutters, THE point of entry or exit or otherwise for their abductor
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 27, 2015, 10:42:28 AM
More curious is that two experienced officers the first on the scene (Officer Roque and his partner) did not believe it was a crime scene. The excuse they were know nothing Portuguese pretendy cops don't cut it I am afraid.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 27, 2015, 11:03:11 AM
Anna, my point was about the destruction or not of potential evidence and it being wholly blamed on the police...we know this is untrue (as evidenced by the public prosecutors report and also by the tapas 9)and we also know that despite the Mccanns "knowing" it was a crime scene allowed their friends to meddle with the shutters, THE point of entry or exit or otherwise for their abductor
The police are the professionals. Whether or not they believed Madeleine had wandered on her own and they expected her to return or to be found they should have taken appropriate action to prepare for all eventualities and that was to preserve whatever evidence remained on their arrival.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 27, 2015, 11:04:43 AM
More curious is that two experienced officers the first on the scene (Officer Roque and his partner) did not believe it was a crime scene. The excuse they were know nothing Portuguese pretendy cops don't cut it I am afraid.
Then what did they think it was? IYO of course.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on April 27, 2015, 11:39:02 AM
More curious is that two experienced officers the first on the scene (Officer Roque and his partner) did not believe it was a crime scene. The excuse they were know nothing Portuguese pretendy cops don't cut it I am afraid.
Experienced in what? A CSI manual was only introduced in May 2009.
source: Diário de Notícias, 20.05.2009 Today, at the Polícia Judiciária’s School, in Lisbon, a crime scene practises manual is launched, establishing rules on how to enter, how to mark the investigators’ passage, how to photograph and/or draw a crime scene, among other procedures. “The potentialities in the collection of a certain type of residues are incommensurably different today from what they were years ago”, said Carlos Farinha, according to whom “nowadays the level of collection of elements on location is scarily superior”. Hence, he adds, the need to “reorganise and think about the manner to proceed on a crime scene”.
No online link to provide for the moment.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 27, 2015, 12:00:51 PM
Experienced in what? A CSI manual was only introduced in May 2009.
source: Diário de Notícias, 20.05.2009 Today, at the Polícia Judiciária’s School, in Lisbon, a crime scene practises manual is launched, establishing rules on how to enter, how to mark the investigators’ passage, how to photograph and/or draw a crime scene, among other procedures. “The potentialities in the collection of a certain type of residues are incommensurably different today from what they were years ago”, said Carlos Farinha, according to whom “nowadays the level of collection of elements on location is scarily superior”. Hence, he adds, the need to “reorganise and think about the manner to proceed on a crime scene”.
No online link to provide for the moment.
I think it possible that the failings apparent in Madeleine McCann's case were such that it may have led to the realisation that courses of this kind had to be introduced.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on April 27, 2015, 12:09:20 PM
I think it possible that the failings apparent in Madeleine McCann's case were such that it may have led to the realisation that courses of this kind had to be introduced.
I really think that PT judicial / police have made efforts to move forward, but between dealing with a general overhaul, including change management and a recession, it hasn't been easy.
I wish them all the best.
PS: Carlos Farinha is (or was at the time of this article dated 11/07/2014), head of the Police Scientifc Lab). AFAIK, this isn't the same entity as the INML. What he's saying seems to correspond to the Machado / Santos studies on public perception of CSI versus reality.
I really think that PT judicial / police have made efforts to move forward, but between dealing with a general overhaul, including change management and a recession, it hasn't been easy.
I wish them all the best.
PS: Carlos Farinha is (or was at the time of this article dated 11/07/2014), head of the Police Scientifc Lab). AFAIK, this isn't the same entity as the INML. What he's saying seems to correspond to the Machado / Santos studies on public perception of CSI versus reality.
It really doesn't matter when you read through the files something new always turns up. They did a monumental amount of information gathering and I think they could probably have cracked the case if it had all been utilised properly. I think the information overload was all too much for EXCELL to cope with.
They were seriously let down by things outwith their control; language and custom ~ lack of CCTV ~ but the clincher imo was a leadership devoid of experience or training in cases of this kind and lacking a grain of common sense. One wonders what kind of job Joao Carlos might have made had he been in charge.
I too wish them all the best in the upheavals which have been going on ... I think they are doing excellent work in the face of many difficulties.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 27, 2015, 12:58:25 PM
I remain content to accept what experienced officers said in their statements. Google Officer Roques deposition linked to McCann Files and read it for yourself.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 27, 2015, 01:04:32 PM
Experienced in what? A CSI manual was only introduced in May 2009.
source: Diário de Notícias, 20.05.2009 Today, at the Polícia Judiciária’s School, in Lisbon, a crime scene practises manual is launched, establishing rules on how to enter, how to mark the investigators’ passage, how to photograph and/or draw a crime scene, among other procedures. “The potentialities in the collection of a certain type of residues are incommensurably different today from what they were years ago”, said Carlos Farinha, according to whom “nowadays the level of collection of elements on location is scarily superior”. Hence, he adds, the need to “reorganise and think about the manner to proceed on a crime scene”.
No online link to provide for the moment.
Red bit: experienced at being policemen and all that derives from that. Blue bit: your point being?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on April 27, 2015, 01:23:22 PM
Red bit: experienced at being policemen and all that derives from that. Blue bit: your point being?
I was replying your comment: More curious is that two experienced officers the first on the scene (Officer Roque and his partner) did not believe it was a crime scene.
It's not clear what the two officers were "experienced" in concerning a crime scene as a guidance manual didn't exist at the time... and one was only initially launched two years later.
It may be easy to equate means / training / experience to what may be considered (or imagined) to be standard in other countries, but this doesn't appear to have been the situation in PT at the time.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on April 27, 2015, 01:31:58 PM
I was replying your comment: More curious is that two experienced officers the first on the scene (Officer Roque and his partner) did not believe it was a crime scene.
It's not clear what the two officers were "experienced" in concerning a crime scene as a guidance manual didn't exist at the time... and one was only initially launched two years later.
It may be easy to equate means / training / experience to what may be considered (or imagined) to be standard in other countries, but this doesn't appear to have been the situation in PT at the time.
Would there have been local guidelines in place?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 27, 2015, 01:35:04 PM
I was replying your comment: More curious is that two experienced officers the first on the scene (Officer Roque and his partner) did not believe it was a crime scene.
It's not clear what the two officers were "experienced" in concerning a crime scene as a guidance manual didn't exist at the time... and one was only initially launched two years later.
Extending that logic then: until the manual was written nothing was a crime scene, even it was, because it could not be identified as such in accordance with the manual which was yet to be written. Furthermore if the manual was needed to identify a crime scene how did the manual writer know what a crime scene looked like before he wrote the manual? I'll go with Roques and his mate knowing what they were looking at.
I guess that makes sense somewhere.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on April 27, 2015, 01:37:24 PM
Extending that logic then: until the manual was written nothing was a crime scene, even it was, because it could not be identified as such in accordance with the manual which was yet to be written. Furthermore if the manual was needed to identify a crime scene how did the manual writer know what a crime scene looked like before he wrote the manual? I'll go with Roques and his mate knowing what they were looking at.
I guess that makes sense somewhere.
It's not clear what the manual was actually based on. It could have been an adaptation of those that exist elsewhere (e.g., the US or UK ones).
In any case, Roque was a GNR officer... They don't deal with serious crimes.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 27, 2015, 02:12:22 PM
More curious is that two experienced officers the first on the scene (Officer Roque and his partner) did not believe it was a crime scene. The excuse they were know nothing Portuguese pretendy cops don't cut it I am afraid.
Yes, a bit curious
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on April 27, 2015, 07:59:53 PM
The police are the professionals. Whether or not they believed Madeleine had wandered on her own and they expected her to return or to be found they should have taken appropriate action to prepare for all eventualities and that was to preserve whatever evidence remained on their arrival.
Thank you for acknowledging the fact that the police were not responsible for the destruction of any potential evidence , as your previous post suggested, and that it had, in fact,been compromised beforehand, thus making any "preservation" of the "crime scene" a bit of a moot point
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 27, 2015, 10:50:58 PM
Thank you for acknowledging the fact that the police were not responsible for the destruction of any potential evidence , as your previous post suggested, and that it had, in fact,been compromised beforehand, thus making any "preservation" of the "crime scene" a bit of a moot point
Of course the apartment had been compromised prior to the arrival of the GNR by people searching for a missing child. That was a situation entirely outwith their control. When they arrived and assessed the situation there is no moot point about the fact they failed to secure the crime scene and indeed added to the contamination.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on April 27, 2015, 10:56:28 PM
Of course the apartment had been compromised prior to the arrival of the GNR by people searching for a missing child. That was a situation entirely outwith their control. When they arrived and assessed the situation there is no moot point about the fact they failed to secure the crime scene and indeed added to the contamination.
So it comes to who compromised the crime scene and it was as the public prosecutor said the mccanns and friends...unless you can come up with an example of how the police compromised it, you cant slag them off gratuitously, over to you
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on April 27, 2015, 11:06:20 PM
So it comes to who compromised the crime scene and it was as the public prosecutor said the mccanns and friends...unless you can come up with an example of how the police compromised it, you cant slag them off gratuitously, over to you
Dog hairs & discarded cigarette ends spring to mind, before you even consider the unauthorised personnel who crossed the police tape the next morning.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on April 27, 2015, 11:23:23 PM
Dog hairs & discarded cigarette ends spring to mind, before you even consider the unauthorised personnel who crossed the police tape the next morning.
Can you give me a link to something that shows fag ends compromised any evidence?
I dont know about dog hairs, I assume dogs are used but nothing has been invented to stop them shedding hairs when used to iinvestigate crimes...you be calling for bald police next
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 28, 2015, 12:56:24 AM
Can you give me a link to something that shows fag ends compromised any evidence?
I dont know about dog hairs, I assume dogs are used but nothing has been invented to stop them shedding hairs when used to iinvestigate crimes...you be calling for bald police next
All that is required to avoid contaminating a crime scene is appropriate protective clothing and gloves ... nothing spectacular.
**snip
Detectives spent hours poring over footprints found at the scene - which turned out to belong to policemen.
Forensic samples sent for analysis contained ash from cops' cigarettes.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id154.html
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on April 28, 2015, 01:25:29 AM
A news of the world article proves fag ash contaminated the crime scene, oh please, you must do better 2\10..hard evidence dear..too funny at best lol
ps pls provide a link to any forensic analysis as claimed by the rag re fag ash
You can consult mccannpjfiles.co.uk
The official police files,not some dirty agenda ridden rag
Would that be the same forensic report that stated the CSI's didn't find a single footprint in the apartment gardens, despite all those people trampling all over the place?
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2319 Photos 41 to 43: Details of the window of the bedroom from which the child disappeared where the non-existence of traces/clues of break-in/forced entry was verified.
After the examination of the inside of the apartment and despite the immediate surroundings of the referred apartment not having been preserved [protected] there proceeded the detailed observation of the exterior there not having been detected the existence of any objects/traces of forensic value and [nor] of any traces of shoe-prints in the garden area of the apartment. The recovery of cigarette stubs was not viable due to the existence of a reasonable quantity thereof within the referred perimeter -----------------------------------------------------------------
Would that be the same forensic team who acquired 12 non-human hairs from the apartment?
' 'There must always be an element of surprise with our strategies so we can’t always let the community know what actions we are taking,' Det Insp Young said.
Indeed.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 28, 2015, 05:27:26 PM
Some interesting moments on the whole. I fell asleep twice though, so maybe not that interesting! Think I missed a bit about Robert Murat, but it's mainly all about Tannerman/Sagresman/Smithman.
In the conclusion of the doc he seems to be suggesting some kind of conspiracy involving the 3 sightings; Tannerman, Sagresman and Smithman. Just another theory to be added to the list imo along with bloodlines, woke and wandered, abductors, parents etc... An interesting moment is in regard to the efits that are believed to be from the Smith sighting, but he believes Mr Redwood was economical with his words on Crimewatch and suggests maybe the efits are from witnesses not known to the public or even I assume completely made up as some kind of cunning establishment conspiracy(RM also seems to be part of his theory but not sure how that fits in). I have heard others on here make arguments that the Smith efits were unlikely to be from the Smiths themselves. In fairness at times he makes some compelling points.
I like the effort/research this guy appears to put in, but seems like he's definitely a conspiracy theorist. Some of this is interesting, but at moments he makes massive leaps in conclusion without imo applying the necessary logic or argument. In the absence of information/evidence it's easy to speculate and end up somewhere completely ridiculous...
I have decided LP that you and I must be quite mad.
Like you I have sat through it and I am literally cross eyed (you will note that either no-one else has been daft enough or if they were they're not letting on about it). He is really quite wrong in his interpretation of so much of his source material it is cringe making imo and I can't see anything new. Long winded ~ says nothing ~ but is priming his audience for his next round of 'revelations' in his next documentary.
I don't think he is that much of a conspiracy theorist, he has located a target audience ~ which I think is providing a nice little earner for him and he is milking it for all it is worth for as long as he can.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: lordpookles on April 28, 2015, 09:18:13 PM
Ahaha, you couldn't resist - neither could I. Yeah there were some cringeworthy parts. I can't remember exactly, but obviously not going to have another look to find them. Also, I wouldn't disagree with your appraisal. He made one or two points, which made me think for a moment. I described them as compelling - a tad over the top perhaps as again I cannot remember what they were. The entire conspiracy he was suggesting was absurd imo - such tenuous connections and huge jumps of logic! I was telling him off whilst watching it. And by repeating it a gazillion times doesn't make it anymore believable.
I thought perhaps he was just a member of the tin foil hat brigade, but you may well be right that he's just making this shit up for a few $.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 28, 2015, 10:17:36 PM
Ahaha, you couldn't resist - neither could I. Yeah there were some cringeworthy parts. I can't remember exactly, but obviously not going to have another look to find them. Also, I wouldn't disagree with your appraisal. He made one or two points, which made me think for a moment. I described them as compelling - a tad over the top perhaps as again I cannot remember what they were. The entire conspiracy he was suggesting was absurd imo - such tenuous connections and huge jumps of logic! I was telling him off whilst watching it. And by repeating it a gazillion times doesn't make it anymore believable.
I thought perhaps he was just a member of the tin foil hat brigade, but you may well be right that he's just making this shit up for a few $.
There were quite a few instances when I vehemently disagreed with him ... but they are so memorable that like you I've forgotten them entirely. I think if all else fails he has a career in making audio files for people who have sleep problems (that voice!) he will lull them to unconsciousness in minutes.
That will teach us to be tempted, I doubt if I will fall for it again. 6&%5%
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Eleanor on April 28, 2015, 10:39:18 PM
I have decided LP that you and I must be quite mad.
Like you I have sat through it and I am literally cross eyed (you will note that either no-one else has been daft enough or if they were they're not letting on about it). He is really quite wrong in his interpretation of so much of his source material it is cringe making imo and I can't see anything new. Long winded ~ says nothing ~ but is priming his audience for his next round of 'revelations' in his next documentary.
I don't think he is that much of a conspiracy theorist, he has located a target audience ~ which I think is providing a nice little earner for him and he is milking it for all it is worth for as long as he can.
I watched the whole blooming lot right when it was first released. He repeated himself so many times that I can only conclude that he didn't have much to say and was just dragging it out.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Anna on April 28, 2015, 10:53:10 PM
I watched the whole blooming lot right when it was first released. He repeated himself so many times that I can only conclude that he didn't have much to say and was just dragging it out.
From what I remember, it was a Newcastle accent, which is quite melodious and calming. I had some people who were suppose to do some work for me and the one in charge, had that accent and you can't help but trust them. Like "Auf Wiedersehen Pet", if you remember it.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 28, 2015, 11:10:58 PM
From what I remember, it was a Newcastle accent, which is quite melodious and calming. I had some people who were suppose to do some work for me and the one in charge, had that accent and you can't help but trust them. Like "Auf Wiedersehen Pet", if you remember it.
I just found it soporific ... now Wendy Murphy!!! That really was a literally eye popping tirade ... I think that lady has problems ( and is she not the one with bona fide credentials?) ... the anchor was astounded by the performance.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on April 29, 2015, 12:15:13 AM
Would that be the same forensic report that stated the CSI's didn't find a single footprint in the apartment gardens, despite all those people trampling all over the place?
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2319 Photos 41 to 43: Details of the window of the bedroom from which the child disappeared where the non-existence of traces/clues of break-in/forced entry was verified.
After the examination of the inside of the apartment and despite the immediate surroundings of the referred apartment not having been preserved [protected] there proceeded the detailed observation of the exterior there not having been detected the existence of any objects/traces of forensic value and [nor] of any traces of shoe-prints in the garden area of the apartment. The recovery of cigarette stubs was not viable due to the existence of a reasonable quantity thereof within the referred perimeter -----------------------------------------------------------------
Would that be the same forensic team who acquired 12 non-human hairs from the apartment?
Would that be the same CSI team who "missed" the blood that the dogs indicated to?
The Red Tops are OK, though, when it comes to reports of Gerry & Kate playing tennis the day after Madeleine went missing. Etc etc.
Why are you talking about footprints? My question was about cigarette ash and you haven't linked to any official source about it, and how it COMPROMISED the evidence as you claimed, making the news of the world article stay in the place it is, ie. unfounded. As an aside do you really think any police would be going around dropping fag ash at a crime scene? Get real.
As for the blood detected in the living room by the CSI dog, Was it not found under the tiles? If it was, why would any forensic team find it through normal" methods ie, sight or luminol spray.
its Ok to write reams about stuff, that bother you, but its best to answer questions directly and not deflect dont you think?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 29, 2015, 09:02:57 AM
Why are you talking about footprints? My question was about cigarette ash and you haven't linked to any official source about it, and how it COMPROMISED the evidence as you claimed, making the news of the world article stay in the place it is, ie. unfounded. As an aside do you really think any police would be going around dropping fag ash at a crime scene? Get real.
As for the blood detected in the living room by the CSI dog, Was it not found under the tiles? If it was, why would any forensic team find it through normal" methods ie, sight or luminol spray.
its Ok to write reams about stuff, that bother you, but its best to answer questions directly and not deflect dont you think?
**snip - 286A/2007-CRL 5A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment ... In my opinion, Fernando Viegas could have contributed DNA to this result. - 286/2007-CRL (17) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles identified as number 2...In my opinion, the major part of the profile matched that of Lino Henriques. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
Fernando Viegas and Lino Henriques are Portuguese Forensic experts.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on April 29, 2015, 08:51:53 PM
**snip - 286A/2007-CRL 5A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment ... In my opinion, Fernando Viegas could have contributed DNA to this result. - 286/2007-CRL (17) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles identified as number 2...In my opinion, the major part of the profile matched that of Lino Henriques. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
Fernando Viegas and Lino Henriques are Portuguese Forensic experts.
There was no blood found on the walls, so I don't understand your point.
Now, I take it , since you haven't provided it thus far, that you couldn't find anything to substantiate your claim that police compromised the forensic evidence by dropping ash over it?
So, IMO the castigating of others by you, for doing exactly the same, is a tad disingenuous, is it not? It is also against forum rules I believe, to state things as fact, without back up?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on April 29, 2015, 09:07:04 PM
There was no blood found on the walls, so I don't understand your point.
Now, I take it , since you haven't provided it thus far, that you couldn't find anything to substantiate your claim that police compromised the forensic evidence by dropping ash over it?
So, IMO the castigating of others by you, for doing exactly the same, is a tad disingenuous, is it not? It is also against forum rules I believe, to state things as fact, without back up?
Take up the blood on the walls with the FSS it is their report, not mine.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on April 29, 2015, 09:42:15 PM
Stop wumming and follow the links already provided &8#Ł%
I am not wumming. I searched the Lowe report for terms of blood, walls and DNA, nothing came up. Methinks you have been snookered dear. (For the second time in a row as well. You have been unable to give a link for two assertions, despite being asked repeatedly, oh, and no one else has been able to help you out on that score either)
&%+((Ł
In case you have forgotten, no proof provided that police contaminated evidence with their fag ash and none provided for the other assertion that blood was missed or that it even existed on said walls of flat 5a in Praia da Luz. Instead, just a bunch of deflection.
Bye then
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on April 30, 2015, 07:24:31 AM
The McCanns’ spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “The investigation will come to an end sooner or later and Kate and Gerry will use the official Madeleine fund and any awards made to them to continue their own search.’’ http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/439410/Madeleine-McCann-Kate-Gerry-357k-libel-cash
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2015, 07:56:07 AM
The McCanns’ spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “The investigation will come to an end sooner or later and Kate and Gerry will use the official Madeleine fund and any awards made to them to continue their own search.’’ http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/439410/Madeleine-McCann-Kate-Gerry-357k-libel-cash
you still swallow as the truth everything that is written in the star...
it also says this...
Mr Mitchell added: “Kate and Gerry remain very grateful for the continuing support from the Government and the Metropolitan Police but realise it cannot last. In a common sense and practical move they have kept some money back from the Find Madeleine Fund in case it is needed
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on April 30, 2015, 08:05:24 AM
you still swallow as the truth everything that is written in the star...
it also says this...
Mr Mitchell added: “Kate and Gerry remain very grateful for the continuing support from the Government and the Metropolitan Police but realise it cannot last. In a common sense and practical move they have kept some money back from the Find Madeleine Fund in case it is needed
I used the quote because it has quotation marks. I ignore things like 'a source close to the McCanns'. Mitchell added clarification i agree, perhaps when he realised that what he had said initially was a little too revealing.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on April 30, 2015, 11:22:10 AM
The McCanns’ spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “The investigation will come to an end sooner or later and Kate and Gerry will use the official Madeleine fund and any awards made to them to continue their own search.’’ http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/439410/Madeleine-McCann-Kate-Gerry-357k-libel-cash
Very revealing.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 30, 2015, 08:43:19 PM
...And where will they begin looking? Portugal? the rest of the world where sightings have been recorded...
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on April 30, 2015, 08:46:21 PM
Oh anywhere but Portugal, I imagine.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2015, 10:56:44 PM
I used the quote because it has quotation marks. I ignore things like 'a source close to the McCanns'. Mitchell added clarification i agree, perhaps when he realised that what he had said initially was a little too revealing.
probably more like misquoted....
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Eleanor on May 01, 2015, 10:07:17 AM
Scotland Yard could find the perpetrators and still not find Madeleine. The perpetrators might not know where she is.
I think it highly unlikely that the perpetrators will have any idea where Madeleine is now if they passed her on as quickly as they could which I think is likely. She could be anywhere in the world by now.
The only chance they would know her whereabouts would be if she came to harm while in their hands.
The McCanns can't possibly make any plans for where they are going in the future until they know where they are in the present, they just have to be prepared for any contingency.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Eleanor on May 01, 2015, 10:34:46 AM
I think it highly unlikely that the perpetrators will have any idea where Madeleine is now if they passed her on as quickly as they could which I think is likely. She could be anywhere in the world by now.
The only chance they would know her whereabouts would be if she came to harm while in their hands.
The McCanns can't possibly make any plans for where they are going in the future until they know where they are in the present, they just have to be prepared for any contingency.
There are countries in the world from which it would be very difficult to extract her, or even find her. Let's hope Scotland Yard turn up some leads.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on May 01, 2015, 10:50:57 AM
The countries in the world where it would be hard to find or extract Madeleine from ? Surely not in one of those lawless Portuguese villages ?
Try Malta for starters
Malta refused the British request for extraditioin of "Roderick Robinson / MacDonald" on serious charges with children. They also prevented NZ and IIRC Australia getting their hands on him. Likewise on serious charges.
They arrested him for child porn images on his computer and refused extradition for actual child abuse, which is a far greater crime
Hmmm? Ł5%4%
The lawless PT villages are just a red herring, I think.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: slartibartfast on May 02, 2015, 08:10:25 AM
Malta refused the British request for extraditioin of "Roderick Robinson / MacDonald" on serious charges with children. They also prevented NZ and IIRC Australia getting their hands on him. Likewise on serious charges.
They arrested him for child porn images on his computer and refused extradition for actual child abuse, which is a far greater crime
Hmmm? Ł5%4%
The lawless PT villages are just a red herring, I think.
And refused extradition for what seem to me to be far greater offenses in the UK, NZ and Australia.
He is detained at the Corradino Correctional Facility, near Poala and a quarter mile away from the famous Hal Saflieni Hypergeum with all its underfround tunnels.
The whole of Malta and Gozo are reputedly riddled with connectiing tunnels
Hope he doesn't manage to escape thru them !
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 02, 2015, 12:53:58 PM
Crime without punishment
TV 7 Dias (Paper edition only)
Madeleine disappeared and the authors of the crime remain at large. To the Portuguese authorities, the case seems to be closed, but without a corpse and without punishment, the people won't rest and want to make justice on their own. TV 7 Dias felt the revolt in Luz, a "haunted" village where nothing is like it used to be.
by: Maria Plácido, with Carla Bernardino 29th April 2009
Never before had a child been so avidly searched for. Madeleine McCann disappeared from apartment 5A at the Ocean Club, in Praia da Luz, Lagos, on the night of the 3rd of May 2007, and those who committed to recover her, on the days that followed the tragedy, now point the finger at the parents, who don’t move and don't convince anyone, anymore. For the people, Maddie is dead and buried… by the hands of her parents. And this crime without punishment generates a revolt that feeds off the theory of former investigator Gonçalo Amaral.
On the eve of the second anniversary of the disappearance of Gerry and Kate McCann's eldest daughter, the documentary 'Maddie – The Truth of the Lie', which is based on the book by the former coordinator of the searches, is another log for the fire of indignation that burns in Praia da Luz. The documentary, which was broadcast by TVI, was seen by over 2.2 million people. Now, TV 7 Dias visited the scene of the crime and felt the pulsing of revolt that Gonçalo Amaral calls "an uncomfortable feeling of impunity".
New data to reopen the process
The Portuguese police has closed the case, but neither the people nor the former investigator lower their guard. After the initial silence, the population of Aldeia da Luz starts to talk about the issue without barriers, and the former case coordinator lifts new clues that "will force the reopening of the process", he announces.
Gonçalo Amaral offers a glimpse of what is coming... "There are things that we need to clarify. It's important to understand the role of Mr David Payne in this story. He was on holiday with Maddie's family when the little girl disappeared, and right on the 16th of May, an English doctor told the British authorities that on another occasion, when she and her husband were on the beachside with the McCanns and their friends, that gentleman had made obscene gestures, of a sexual nature, about the girl... That doctor also said that David liked to bathe the little girls... Now, if he was part of the group of adults that went to check on Maddie and her siblings... he was one of the last people to see her alive. It would be important to find out how much time he spent with the little girl doing what, but information about this lady's statements only arrived in Portugal in October, at a time when I was not even on the case anymore. This is one of the various important things that were ignored. Someone pretended he didn't know about this..."
TV 7 Dias went to the crime scene and reveals other important details about the scenario where it all happened. We walked the distance that separates the restaurant where the McCanns were eating and the bedroom where the children were sleeping. And despite having been forbidden from capturing images that document the location, we must stress that from the table where Kate and Gerry ate and drank, it is impossible to see the window to the children's bedroom.
More: the Tapas Bar restaurant is located at the back side of the apartment and the window, as well as the main door, are located at the front of the building. In order to walk from the table to the bedroom, one needs to walk out of the Ocean Club's inner patio, walk down a few steps, walk through reception, walk around the apartment block, enter a corridor... a walk that takes six to seven minutes. And all of the lamps on the McCanns' apartment front had been broken for two days, which means that there was complete darkness. From the place where Maddie's parents dined, all that one can see is half the living room window, and to get there, one needs to cross the pool area, and then walk along a row of bushes (approximately 70 metres long). Still, anyone who would be looking in, couldn't see Maddie or her twin siblings, Sean and Amelie, on the opposite end of the house.
According to what TV 7 Dias could establish during this visit to the resort, the scheme of checking the children's bedrooms hides other curiosities. For example: a person who has followed the case since the first few minutes tells that a list with schedules and names of everyone who told the authorities they had peeked into the children's bedroom was found... "It's strange that they wrote that. It looks like a cheat sheet from a person who had been staging a theory...", the same source says.
Wine and seafood the following day
In Praia da Luz, opinions about what happened to little Maddie that night are divided, but the vast majority believes that she died, and holds the parents responsible. Almost nobody rises to defend the McCanns. For Maria Bandeirinha, the owner of a rent a car business, the parents' attitude is incriminating. "Kate passed by my door, laughing her head off, with a friend, days after her daughter disappeared. What mother has a child in an unknown location and feels like laughing? Looking back, I don't even know how she managed to convince the people that her daughter had been stolen from her… Just compare her with Rui Pedro's mother. I'm not going any further, because I'm a mother myself and I cannot imagine life for one minute, if I lost my daughter."
Maria Bandeirinha says that she had photos of the little girl on her shop window, but she tore everything off when she stopped believing the McCanns' innocence. "The other shop owners did the same. I'm increasingly on the side of Gonçalo Amaral. He knows the truth, and if he says that the little girl is dead, then she is. Kate and Gerry know it as well. Nobody believes this circus anymore."
From a source close to the Ocean Club, new reports about the day after Madeleine McCann's disappearance emerge. "After that tragedy, everything that they needed they received for free. The hotel staff did everything they could to offer them some comfort, in the middle of their supposed pain." And he continues: "When I saw them, the next day, I couldn't believe it! They had ordered food and drink... they had even ordered wine and seafood! Who is that hungry, after losing a child? Who can think of jogging every morning, like Kate did, or playing tennis with his friends, like Gerry did? Even the family that came down to meet them didn't forget their bathing suits..." TV 7 Dias tried to confirm these reports with the Ocean Club's management, but the law of silence reigns at the resort.
Public trial
For Gonçalo Amaral, there will be no peace or quiet until the case is solved. If there is a crime... there are perpetrators. The former investigator's restlessness is also the revolt of Luz's people. The only difference is that the people have made their judgment... Most of the residents want to see Kate and Gerry pay for their daughter's death.
"It's only natural for people to feel revolt. Everyone wants an end for this story. That is ultimately the only reason that led so many people to watch the documentary that is based on my book. Impunity has never pleased the people", Gonçalo recognises.
Paul, the owner of one of the restaurants that are located by the bay of Praia da Luz, is one of the few that still believe in the possibility that Maddie is alive. "This story has been badly told, directed and investigated. For me, the McCanns are guilty, but not over their daughter's death. They are guilty over the little girl's abduction, because they offered the criminals the possibility of carrying it out... Children can't be left alone at home! For me, she is alive, she was abducted and sold."
But almost everyone thinks differently. The same person who accompanied the McCanns, two years ago, now concludes: "I believe that they are guilty. I was with them and I saw the theatre that they put on... They were always looking good and fine and only when journalists approached, they would hang their heads low. At the beginning, people believed them, they suffered with their loss and felt solidarity, but presently, if they could, they would take justice into their own hands. Only a while ago, when Gerry came here, he was jeered at on the street and if people could, they would have beaten him up." Maria Bandeirinha adds: "Sometimes, popular justice would be a good thing. It would be swifter and easier. Nobody believes a word they say anymore. They still have some support in church, but the priests also know very well what happened that night."
The McCanns' documentary
Gonçalo Amaral's documentary is still widely present, but a reply is on the way. In early April, Maddie's father returned to the Ocean Club with Channel 4's cameras, for a detailed reconstruction of his version of events on the night of May 3, 2007. "He didn't stay at the Ocean Club, I don't know where he slept, and he could hardly set foot on the street, because people wanted to give him a beating... Then he had some ridiculous letters distributed, which were all over the place, shredded, on the next day", another resident of Luz told us, showing us a sample of the letter. Concerning the documentary, "it is most likely to be a pack of lies". Gonçalo Amaral agrees: "I don't care about the documentary. It's all lies!"
The programme will be broadcast on the 7th of May in the United Kingdom, and Portuguese stations fight to acquire it. "At the moment, the way that negotiations are, TVI is up front to get it", a source tells us. But the British couple's spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, asserts TV 7 Dias: "The deal is about to be closed and we think that SIC will broadcast the documentary that was recorded by Gerry. He is not at all happy about TVI broadcasting Gonçalo Amaral's documentary, which is full of errors and mistakes, and therefore he isn't interested in the documentary, which was recorded in Portugal, being broadcast by TVI", states the former aide to the British prime minister, Gordon Brown.
What is certain is that on the brink of the second anniversary of Maddie's disappearance, the waters are agitated with two explosive documentaries, Gerry's return to the crime scene and the news about Kate's physical and emotional frailty. The end of this case still seems far away.
'The Truth of The Lie' in more than 15 countries
Marta Vaz de Sousa, the head of Valentim de Carvalho Multimédia, took the documentary 'Maddie – The Truth of the Lie', that TVI broadcast, to MIP, in Cannes, and is preparing its sales. "There are more than 15 countries interested in it, business deals that could be closed within a week." But she does not comment on whether it will reach the United Kingdom. Clarence Mitchell, on the other hand, reacts and leaves a warning. "I doubt that anyone around here is interested in watching it and the station that broadcasts it will be sued by our lawyers!"
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9333.html
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 18, 2015, 01:07:10 PM
Unanswered Prayers
After three-year-old Madeleine McCann disappeared on a family vacation in Portugal, her parents pursued a high-stakes strategy: media saturation. It succeeded beyond their wildest imaginings—winning the aid of everyone from J. K. Rowling to the Pope—and failed miserably. Getting the first in-depth interview with Gerry McCann since he and his wife, Kate, were declared suspects, the author re-traces their footsteps to their daughter’s empty bed. BY JUDY BACHRACH - FEBRUARY 2008
Kate and Gerry McCann appealed to Pope Benedict XVI in St. Peter’s Square, in Rome, four weeks after Madeleine’s disappearance. Felici SNC/Grazia Neri/Polaris.
On a hot day last September, four months after their daughter, Madeleine, almost four, vanished from a sleepy resort town in Portugal during a family vacation, Kate and Gerry McCann, both British doctors, opened their villa door to a local policeman.
The policeman’s name was Ricardo, and he had been, relatively speaking, on friendly terms with the couple. He knew their circumstances. Their lives, heavy with grief since their daughter’s disappearance, had undergone a few small improvements. Kate had grown shockingly thin, but at least she was eating regular meals.
This time, however, the bearing of the detective from the Policia Judiciária was different. And the McCanns were not entirely surprised. “Because for months they used to have regular weekly meetings with the Portuguese police, and then they stopped,” recalls Gerry’s older sister Trish Cameron, who was in the villa at the time. Also, without the McCanns’ knowledge or consent, the police had photocopied Kate’s diary, examined her borrowed Bible, and removed Gerry’s laptop.
“Do you have something to tell us?” Ricardo asked, dramatically.
“No,” Kate replied. “Do you have something to tell us?”
He nodded. “Yes. You are being made arguidos.” He was using the Portuguese word for “formal suspects.”
It was at that point, Trish says, that her sister-in-law became incandescent with rage, screaming, “Do you honestly believe that I would murder my own child?”
“No,” said the policeman.
The Portuguese police, as they informed the world through calculated leaks to their own media, simply believed that Gerry, a Scottish cardiologist, and Kate, a general practitioner, both 39, were lying when they said their daughter had been abducted from their resort villa the night of May 3. Authorities now suspected the McCanns were somehow responsible for their daughter’s death and the disposal of her body, though in what manner no one seems to know. Local incinerators have been scoured, to no avail. The $4 million reward for information leading to Madeleine’s recovery; the televised pleas by the McCanns; the hiring of Control Risks Groups, a security firm whose directors included former S.A.S. commander Sir Michael Rose; the Find Madeleine Web site visited by more than 80 million people in three months after the disappearance—these, the police believed, were all red herrings.
And for a long time the global media were of the same opinion. “Could Kate and Gerry McCann have had a hand in their own child’s disappearance?” People magazine asked in September. By October, Britain’s Daily Mail had an answer: new dna tests “put the mccanns back under suspicion.” Body fluids found in a car rented by the McCanns 25 days after Madeleine disappeared, it was subsequently reported, matched 88 percent of the child’s genetic profile. (A problem with this information, British DNA specialist Nigel Hodge informs me, is that most genetic profiles are based on 20 DNA components. “And 88 is not divisible by 20,” he says flatly. Moreover: “If there are DNA components that do not match, the DNA could not come from that person.”)
Undaunted, the tabloids summoned up yet another genetic fantasy: maddie: who’s her daddy? asked the Daily Star in October, implying that Gerry is not Madeleine’s biological father. (The girl was conceived through in-vitro fertilization.) As the news industry trumpeted All Madeleine All the Time, and Barbara Walters and Oprah clamored for interviews, Kate’s elegant face grew more gaunt in each tabloid photo. Meanwhile, a British poll revealed that 48 percent of all respondents believed the couple could have been responsible for their daughter’s death. Only 20 percent considered them completely innocent.
“Yes, yes, I know,” Gerry says bitterly. “Kate killed her in a frenzy, Madeleine was sedated by us, she fell down the stairs—in which case you would have thought they’d have found her body. I’ve heard all that! There have been a huge number of theories in the media. But what I want to know is—who told them all that?”
In fact, much of what is aired or printed about the vanished girl and her parents is mendacious, mistaken, or just plain conflicting: according to the press, to various detectives, and to top Portuguese authorities, the child is alternatively alive in Morocco (or maybe Portugal or Bosnia) or dead, killed one moment by kidnappers and in other instances by family. In all these hypotheses the supporting facts are invented, from the reason for Kate’s lack of public emotion to the first acts of the Portuguese police (dubbed “the Keystone Cops” and “Butt Heads” by reporters). Thus, the media has managed to rob the McCanns of their daughter a second time. And to complicate matters, it was Gerry McCann himself who, two days after Madeleine’s disappearance, ignited the media conflagration that is now consuming the couple.
It is Gerry who is behind what he tells me is “the marketing … a high public awareness” of Madeleine. At his side while we talk is Clarence Mitchell, a voluble former government media analyst and BBC reporter, handpicked by Gerry to be the latest in a line of spokesmen. On October 17, Mitchell spoke at Coventry University. His topic: “Missing Madeleine McCann: The Perfect PR Campaign.” Except that it has been anything but perfect.
It has in fact been so counterproductive that, as winter approached, Portuguese attorney general Fernando Pinto Monteiro suggested that one way or another the McCanns were responsible for their child’s death. Specifically he said that if indeed Madeleine had been kidnapped, it was the carefully contrived publicity engineered by her parents that likely sealed her fate. “With the whole world having Madeleine’s photo,” he observed, any abductor would have been pushed to such a degree that “there’s a greater probability of the little girl being dead than alive.”
And with this last devastating conclusion—namely that Madeleine will likely never reappear—Madeleine’s own father haltingly agrees.
Gerry McCann has vivid blue eyes set in an impassive face, and a jaw that has grown more angular and prominent as the tragedy has unfolded and almost seven pounds have melted from his frame. There are those, including a onetime close associate, who find him difficult and controlling, feeling he has the trademark arrogance and self-regard of many surgeons. And his judgment is certainly questionable. In the fall, for instance, it emerged that the McCanns had made two mortgage payments from the $2.4 million fund set up to find Madeleine. But months of anguish have taken their toll, and now there is mainly resignation.
When the policeman came to their door with the bad news that they were now suspects, Gerry simply asked him to leave. “Why shoot the messenger? I felt that saying anything more was not going to change what happened,” he says.
Kate, however, cannot help replaying the circumstances that led to the child’s disappearance—the work, she is certain, of a mysterious abductor. “I will tell you what I haven’t told anyone,” says Jon Corner, a family friend. “In August, I was with Kate in Portugal. She told me, ‘I wish I could roll back time and go back to the day before Madeleine was abducted. I would slow down time. I would get a really good look around and have a really good think. And I’d think: Where are you? Who are you? Who is secretly watching my family? Because someone was watching my family very, very carefully. And taking notes.’ ”
“That’s a logical conclusion for anyone who knows anything about what happened to us,” Gerry says briskly. This is his first detailed and candid interview since being declared a suspect, and so great is his loathing of most journalists that it takes place in utter secrecy near his home, in Leicestershire. In a country inn lined with portraits of ladies in powdered wigs, a polite manager points the way to the back exit, in the event other reporters drop by.
While front-page stories about the McCanns sell newspapers—up to 30,000 extra copies a day—perhaps because they happen to be a handsome, prosperous couple wrecked by tragedy (“Let’s face it: if Kate were fat and spotty and aging, they wouldn’t be selling all these papers,” says Trish), the British media believe that sales don’t really soar unless the couple is accused of villainy. “The last equivalent story was probably the Second World War,” observed a columnist for The Guardian. When, in November, Panorama, a BBC newsmagazine show, bought the same five-month-old footage of the McCanns (shot by a family friend) as ABC’s 48 Hours and repackaged it, viewership rose by 2 million, to 5.3 million.
In this search for villainy, the British tabloids are aided by the most unlikely ally: the Portuguese police, who are often the sources for some of the more outrageous allegations, unquestioningly swallowed by the Portuguese media.
“No, the leak about [Madeleine’s] DNA not being compatible with Gerry’s is not malicious, not at all,” a Portuguese journalist tells me sarcastically, referring to the who’s her daddy? headline, before turning deadly earnest. “It is revenge, pure and simple. Because the British attack our police as stupid. And backward. And incompetent. Because they say we are a primitive country and our laws are primitive!”
The Portuguese police “don’t want to be portrayed as a leather-jacketed, swearing bunch of fat, greasy villains who beat people up with rubber hoses,” one of the most active in the McCann camp tells me, and yet this is exactly how they have been portrayed.
Thus the Madeleine frenzy, which began as a story about bad judgment and irretrievable loss, has spun out of control, each day bringing fresh allegations, outrage, celebrity alliances—the Pope! J. K. Rowling! David Beckham!—and sensational links to power. At the E.U. summit in mid-October, for instance, British prime minister Gordon Brown, who had regularly been in touch with the McCanns, raised the Madeleine issue with Portuguese prime minister José Sócrates, urging “proper cooperation between the British and Portuguese police.” Gerry’s allies were jubilant.
And yet this high-powered strategy has also backfired. There appears to be massive resentment among the Portuguese. Although Madeleine’s photo is posted at Heathrow, it is nowhere to be found at Faro, the airport nearest the seaside village from which she disappeared.
Shortly after the McCanns hired a team of Spanish private investigators, in early October, word leaked out that the Portuguese police had stopped their search for Madeleine (at least temporarily). Nothing the parents have done has worked out right.
“The McCanns have completely changed the way we now look for missing children—it used to be you go to the police; now it means you go to the media, to celebrities,” says a disapproving Scotland Yard specialist in abused children.
“There are many cases in the world of children who have disappeared,” Portuguese national police chief Alípio Ribeiro recently complained. “But none have this external component, this massive public exposure, that gives it a fantastic, almost surreal dimension.”
The McCanns are both reviled and pitied, occasionally in the same breath. Madeleine’s face has appeared on movie screens, on cell phones, in e-mails, in airports, in health centers, and on British Airways planes. “So the strategy we used,” says Gerry, “well—somehow something caught the public’s imagination.” But it has not caught their daughter’s abductor.
The McCanns are also fairly sure their phones are monitored not only by the British police, who are waiting to see if a kidnapper calls, but also by Portuguese authorities. “It’s quite possible,” acknowledges Gerry’s older brother, John McCann, a pharmaceutical salesman who lives in Glasgow. “Because there’s information that’s been appearing in the press that you’d have to think, How did that get into the public domain? Because it wasn’t us releasing it. Every now and again, amidst all the speculation and rumor and outright lies, there’s been a grain of truth.”
“What happened in the last two months has clearly polarized people,” Gerry says slowly. “People can support you in your darkest hours, and in our case the darkest hour was of course when Madeleine went missing.”
And now, I wonder, with all the polarization?
“And now it is just”—he swallows hard—“bleak.”
Praia da Luz (population 1,000) is regularly described, with reason, as “a little Britain.” The same could be said of the entire Algarve, the southern Portuguese province in which the village is situated, which was partially ransacked in the late 16th century by the Earl of Essex. That tradition is now carried on by more than 50,000 British property owners in the area. Signs are in English, and every other commercial establishment proclaims itself an “Irish pub,” which means Carling beer and, on Sundays, shoulder of lamb and “Yorkie pud.” At 10 o’clock one very warm morning, four beet-red Englishmen sampling lagers in an outdoor café steps away from the turquoise sea are being scolded by their desperate guide: “You are always drunk before noon!”
New security guards, in burgundy berets and black military pants, now ring portions of the Ocean Club resort, where the McCanns were staying until mid-September. The village is quite desolate. The heart went out of it last May.
For almost a week last spring, the McCanns’ holiday routine was unvarying. After high tea, at 5:30 p.m., Madeleine and her two-year-old twin siblings, Sean and Amelie, would be retrieved by their parents from the kids’ club. Two hours later the children were put to bed back in their own room in an unprepossessing corner villa, its two entrances bordered by terra-cotta tile and a small white wall covered with pink bougainvillea. The back door, reached by a gate and a flight of steps, was left unlocked.
Then the McCanns would join seven friends at the resort’s tapas bar, close by the swimming pool, an area described by Gerry as “like being at the bottom of your garden.… You could see our apartment from where we were.” You can indeed glimpse the very top part. However, in order to see anyone entering through the back, one would have to dine standing up. The other entrance to the villa is not visible at all.
At intervals, members of the group (since dubbed “the Tapas Nine”) checked on one another’s children, although this method was imperfect. The night of May 3, Gerry checked on Madeleine, fast asleep in her pink-and-white Winnie the Pooh pajamas, and the twins, at 9:05, but the friend who next checked on the McCann children said afterward that he did not actually see Madeleine.
Thus the most important clue to the mystery of Madeleine’s disappearance was initially ignored. At around 9:15, another friend, Jane Tanner, emerged from her own villa to see a white man in beige trousers—five feet six, brown hair (longer in the back), and perhaps 35, she later told the police. In his arms he cradled a child wearing pink-and-white pajamas.
It wasn’t until Kate walked into the villa at 10 and felt a sickening breeze—the front window had been jimmied open—that she realized something terrible had happened. “The scene was stark,” Gerry tells me. On one bed the twins lay sleeping. In the next lay only the plush cat toy Madeleine was never without. That was when Kate came out screaming, “Madeleine has gone!”
In subsequent moments, she seems to have added, “They’ve taken her! We have let her down!” This was the version Sheena Rawcliffe, the managing director of The Resident, a local English-language newspaper, quickly learned, albeit secondhand, and the phrasing puzzled her. What was meant by “They”? It was the first element to ignite suspicion in the Portuguese press, but not the only one. What kind of parents would go out to eat and leave their small children alone in the room, especially in a country where restaurants welcome children, the local press wondered. Why didn’t they hire one of the resort’s babysitters? What child can actually fall asleep at 7:30 p.m.? In Portugal, as in many Latin countries, bedtime for even small kids might be as late as 10.
Moreover, Rawcliffe says, “If my child were missing, I wouldn’t think right away he was abducted. I would think, Where has the little b....r gone?”
But the McCanns were certain of their suspicions. “Wee Madeleine knows better than to wander away,” another of Gerry’s sisters, Philomena McCann, recalls him saying. And besides, the child was too small to open the window and crawl out. Gerry spent the night scouring the village for his daughter, and talking on his cell phone to relatives.
“Well, never in my life had I heard my wee brother so devastated,” says Philomena, who lives in Ullapool, in northern Scotland. “He was absolutely wailing on the phone. He was incomprehensible at times.”
“It’s all my fault, because Kate and I went out to dinner,” he wept to Philomena, who was stunned. She adds, “My wee brother is not a person who panics—he and Kate are very measured people, usually. That’s when I knew how bad things were.”
At 4:30 in the morning, when the search was temporarily called off, the McCanns found a policeman by their door, smoking, seemingly unworried. “Help me, please help me!” a frantic Kate sobbed into her cell phone to a childhood friend. The police had done nothing overnight, she added; the couple were all alone with no one to turn to.
That same morning, Gerry’s sister Trish phoned the BBC in Glasgow and sent photos of the beautiful little girl who had vanished from the resort. “The day after Madeleine was abducted, as Kate and I left the police station, there were 150 journalists in front of it,” Gerry recalls. “Alex Woolfall [the McCanns’ first spokesperson] explained to me that either I interact with the media or we would be hounded by the press.”
Actually, reporters noticed, Gerry seemed to interact avidly. Within a week, the media ranks in the tiny village swelled to 200: Dutch, German, Spanish, and Portuguese nudging their British and American counterparts. Until very recently, Sky News covered the story in such depth that the top three offerings on its Web site were “UK News,” “Madeleine,” and “World News.” The Portuguese police had never seen anything like it.
(to be continued)
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 18, 2015, 01:09:10 PM
Part 2
In the months following the child’s disappearance, the supposed incompetence of the Portuguese police was the subject of many devastating articles in the press, with an attitude wryly summed up by the Scotland Yard detective as “Johnny Dago is not good enough to do it.” This was at the precise time that, as Gerry explains, “we were relying on the Portuguese to find Madeleine, and it was not helpful at all.” However, since the media were, without a doubt, fed in part by the McCann camp, it is hard to know whom to blame.
It wasn’t true, for instance, that there were no fingertip searches performed at the villa, as reported by one British tabloid, or that the shutters were contaminated in the investigation, as reported by another; two on-the-scene reporters claim that personnel in Portuguese C.S.I. uniforms were seen taking fingerprints from those shutters early on, and then dispatched them to the Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal in Porto and Coimbra. Nor did police treat Madeleine’s disappearance lightly.
As Woolfall explains, when he arrived a day and a half after Madeleine had vanished: “There were lots of police, I have to say. There is a big emphasis placed on children and family in Portugal. There was no doubt there was a massive effort trying to find her. And you had Portuguese policemen canceling leave and working over weekends.”
On the other hand, the moment police investigate a crime in Portugal, the country’s judicial-secrecy laws basically shroud everything—facts, names, suspects, witnesses—in a blanket of silence. Police press conferences are almost nonexistent; information is usually obtained only through leaks. (In Madeleine’s case, the police appointed a spokesperson, but after being kept clueless by his colleagues, he ultimately resigned.) There are other drawbacks—for example, Portugal has no DNA data banks or national missing-child alerts.
Moreover, Praia da Luz is not the ideal venue for a topflight criminal investigation. Gonçalo Amaral, who for five months was the senior detective in the case, is himself involved in another legal battle. He is accused of covering up a beating by his subordinates of a Portuguese woman who was ultimately convicted of killing her own child. Locally there are no cadaver dogs trained in tracking human blood or remains; after Madeleine vanished, local residents actually used household pets under the guidance of police with drug-sniffing dogs. “Let me tell you, I know a lot about detective dogs, and I don’t know why the police would want anyone bringing their pets to assist,” says Robert Tucker, who runs a New York security firm.
“One of the things the McCanns very much wanted was a forensic sketch of the man the witness saw carrying the girl wearing pink-and-white pajamas,” recalls Justine McGuinness, an early spokesperson for the McCanns. In the vital first months, their pleas went unanswered. In addition, newspapers claimed the sheets on Madeleine’s bed were never sent for analysis.
Besides, by May 15 the police (with the help of a suspicious British journalist from the Sunday Mirror) believed they had found their man: Robert Murat, a mild, slightly plump Englishman of 33 with a detached retina who lives with his mother in a large villa with a lush garden three minutes from the resort. He was declared an arguido—a status he holds to this day, along with the McCanns—and brought in to the police station for 19 hours of interrogation, say his relatives, with no food or sleep.
There, I learn on good authority, three of the Tapas Nine were put into a room with Murat, and each of them identified him as a man they’d seen hanging about the resort in the hours after Madeleine vanished. One of the witnesses, Fiona Payne, told police she’d actually seen him behind the McCanns’ villa that night, and recalled his “dodgy eye.” Another, Russell O’Brien, claimed Murat had said he spoke Portuguese as well as English, which is in fact the case. The McCann friends were not alone in their suspicions. By late December it emerged that three other witnesses claimed to have seen Murat near the McCanns’ villa apartment the night of the abduction.
It is part of the odd dynamic of this story that when I phone Sally Eveleigh, Murat’s cousin, who also lives in Praia da Luz, her first remark is that she cannot utter a syllable about Murat without the O.K. of her British press agent, the famously rambunctious Max Clifford. And when his blessing is secured, her second is: “Wonderful, darling, see you shortly. Robert can’t talk to you, because he’s an arguido. But we’ll have a bit of a party, won’t we?”
When I arrive at her massive house, lined with rosy tile and Moroccan rugs, Sally greets me in floor-length blue voile trimmed with pretty stones. And the party includes Murat: five feet 10 inches, dark-haired, wearing beige trousers, serving us tea, wine, and cigarettes.
“All I can say,” says Murat, “is that I am innocent. There is no way I was at the resort that night. Full stop. I was in my mother’s kitchen until one a.m. Yes, we are a kitchen kind of family. I spent the night at the house.” As an arguido he cannot reveal more. But he does drive me around and point out the major landmarks of the case. “That’s the apartment from which Madeleine vanished,” he says. “That’s my mother’s villa.” The police ransacked the place four months ago and came up with nothing.
I wish I hadn’t gone to the tapas bar. I wish I’d stayed in the apartment that night. I wish I’d stayed in the room when I checked on her five minutes longer,” Gerry recalls thinking in the days that followed his child’s disappearance. The world, he says, was “all black, with maybe tiny points of light.” The company that owns the resort sent Alan Pike, a trauma counselor, over from Britain, and he spoke to the couple every day for two weeks. Initially, the counselor tells me, he found the couple “catatonic.” They were certain Madeleine was dead.
But pessimism, the counselor knew, inhibits action. Moreover, he adds, “they still needed to be a mother and father to two other children.”
“Remind yourself of the evidence: there is nothing yet to demonstrate that Madeleine has died,” Pike told the McCanns. It’s time, he added, to take control of the things you can.
Gerry felt re-invigorated by such advice. “We can’t cry our eyes out every day, because that’s not helping,” he says. “So after three days I picked myself up—quicker than Kate could.”
Indeed, Woolfall recalls Gerry’s saying shortly after he arrived, “My biggest fear is that this could be a weekend story: british girl taken from portuguese resort—a terrible story! And then that’s it.” The fickleness of the media, Woolfall adds, had Gerry worried. They might so easily “move on to something else,” Gerry told him. Gradually a strategy was devised: stories, pictures, and exotic destinations were woven together, permanently enrapturing the press and luring it into a long, sleepless vigil.
By the end of May, an audience with the Pope had been arranged through the Westminster office of Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor. The couple and a pool of reporters flew direct from Praia da Luz to the Pontiff in a Learjet belonging to the British billionaire Sir Philip Green.
Other celebrities were just as carefully selected and eagerly appealed to: J. K. Rowling, in part, Gerry explains, because the Harry Potter author had lived in Portugal for a time. Manchester United star Cristiano Ronaldo, because he is Portuguese, and Gerry used to play soccer himself. David Beckham—another Gerry idea—who was living in Spain at the time of Madeleine’s disappearance. Experts in child abduction had informed the McCanns that Madeleine was very likely still somewhere on the Iberian Peninsula.
(to be continued)
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 18, 2015, 01:11:04 PM
Part 3
The media were constantly sought out. Reporters followed the McCanns on trips to Washington (where then U.S. attorney general Alberto Gonzales met with the couple); to Morocco—just in case Madeleine had been taken there—where they met with Charki Draiss, director-general of national security; and to Amsterdam, where the McCanns had once lived. If the networks needed fresh footage, they would be told the exact time the McCanns might be walking to church in Praia da Luz.
So, as it turned out, this was not a weekend story. As time went by, Gerry explains that although “grief washes over you—it’s like a big wave, mostly I was able to beat it back.” The industry he poured into the search jolted him out of depression.
But Kate wasn’t buoyed. From time to time, she would turn to friends and offer a wishut upl half-plea—“I hope whoever has Madeleine is giving her blankets … is feeding her properly … is keeping her warm.” Not really absorbing at first, her confidant explains, “what kind of person this was.”
Eventually, though, the probable nature of the abductor was brought home to her in the most explicit and horrifying way. Never talk about Madeleine’s preferences to the press, British police warned the McCanns, because whatever Madeleine most loves—a favorite cartoon, say—could be used as a tool for manipulation by her kidnapper.
Madeleine’s mother was also warned not to weep in public. “That was one of the things they were told right from the beginning,” McGuinness reveals. “Don’t show any emotion, because whoever took the child could get off on that, and take it out on the child. Or the abductor might find tears stimulating in some way. Appalling when you’re being told not to show any emotion in public and your daughter is abducted!”
Appalling and, as it turned out, dangerous for the couple. The P.R. campaign was actually backfiring, regarded by many as slick and, given the gravity of the McCanns’ loss, at times downright strange. “I always wanted to meet the pope,” a British reader e-mailed The Resident newspaper, “and now I know how.” Portuguese police made note of Kate’s seeming stoicism in front of the press—the tearless face. They also marveled at the powerful allies the McCanns had accumulated.
“Why are these people able to put together the biggest media campaign ever, from the Pope to the White House?” asks Paulo Reis, a Portuguese freelance journalist who writes a blog about Madeleine, and with considerable authority: he seems to have excellent contacts in law enforcement. “Why are they all coming out strongly defending the McCanns? Who are the McCanns?” he wonders.
Kate and Gerry McCann are both Roman Catholic, the children of carpenters, and products of Scottish medical training, but there the resemblance ends. Gerry, the youngest of five children, is by far the more ambitious and confident of the couple, secure always in the knowledge, as his sister Philomena explains, “that he was absolutely the pet of the family.” As a result, his brother, John, tells me, he grew up “very sociable, always involved in clubs—football clubs, athletic clubs. He likes mixing with people. And like most of us in the family, quite competitive.”
Kate Healy, a deeply religious only child from Liverpool, once confided to her sister-in-law, “There were too many times when I’ve been alone,” and that solitude evidently left its mark. On meeting her in 1992 the boisterous McCanns found her, John recalls, “reserved.” (Although this reserve was apparently not impenetrable. At the University of Dundee, as the Mail on Sunday recently discovered, Kate’s nickname was “Hot Lips Healy,” and she was renowned, according to her yearbook, for leading friends astray during “alcoholic binges.” When asked about this recently by a friend, Kate groaned and said, “My God! I hope they don’t get the rest of that part of my life.”)
At first, she was not deeply impressed by Gerry, refusing even to go out with him. In 1996, she moved to New Zealand to work as an anesthesiologist in a hospital, and it was only when an impassioned Gerry followed her that the family realized the relationship was serious. They married in 1998 and settled initially in Glasgow.
There Kate shifted career course, abandoning anesthesiology for the regular hours and relatively modest pay of a general practitioner. “To be honest, I don’t think Kate is ambitious,” Philomena says. “The career wasn’t as important to her as having a family.”
That family, however, took years to materialize. There were two rounds of in-vitro fertilization, culminating in Madeleine: “As close to a perfect child as you can get,” says Gerry. Less than two years later another round resulted in the twins—born after a very difficult pregnancy, during which, Philomena says, Kate was confined to her bed for months and almost lost them.
“To be perfectly honest, Kate continued to work as a doctor simply for the economics of it,” says Philomena. “Even though she ended up working only one and a half days a week, that money made a big difference to them. Gerry could have managed to support them all, but it would have been difficult, a stretch for him.”
The press has regularly portrayed the couple as far wealthier. Huge emphasis has been put on the large, $1.2 million neo-Georgian-style house in Rothley, Leicestershire, into which the couple moved in 2006.
“People may think, Ooh, these rich middle-class McCanns,” John says bitterly. “Well, these rich middle-class McCanns have studied for donkey’s years, made loads of sacrifices, and put themselves through a lot of inconvenience to get where they are just now. For Catholics, we’ve got a strong Protestant work ethic!” He shakes his head when asked about how things used to be for the couple.
“Everything going for them, perfect family. And as we all know from great bits of literature, sometimes the fates intervene to ruin perfection,” he says. But philosophy fails him when he thinks of Madeleine. “This is our wee girl. My niece! Their darling daughter, for Christ’s sake!”
“So beautiful, astonishingly bright, and I’d have to say very charismatic. She would shine out of a crowd,” family friend Jon Corner says of the child. “So—God forgive me—maybe that’s part of the problem. That special quality. Some b........ picked up on that.”
As months went by, the McCanns turned desperate. There they were, still in Praia da Luz, with nothing to show for it. “We had been trying to persuade Kate to come home,” recalls Gerry’s sister Trish. “But they lived in dread that if Madeleine turned up in Portugal and they weren’t there, it would be horrible.”
Although initially reluctant, the McCanns finally informed the media of Madeleine’s unique right eye—a risky revelation. Whoever had taken the child now held a universally recognizable little girl.
Gerry understood that. But, he says, the iris “is Madeleine’s only true distinctive feature. Certainly we thought it was possible that this could potentially hurt her or”—he grimaces—“her abductor might do something to her eye.… But in terms of marketing, it was a good ploy.”
On the 100th day of her disappearance, however, the marketing of Madeleine came to a halt. On August 11, the police spokesman, Olegário de Sousa, gave an interview to the BBC in which he said clues had been found “that could point to the possible death of the little child.”
The McCanns were livid. They had entertained this idea, but their fears had been partially allayed during their July trip to see the U.S. attorney general. “We learned in Washington that there are plenty of cases where peoples’ children were discovered after two years!” says McGuinness. “And some cases where people’s children were discovered after four years.” That, she adds, is what “kept Kate going.”
But the police felt they had good reason to suspect the child was dead. They had borrowed a pair of springer spaniels trained by South Yorkshire police to smell particles of blood so minute they are invisible to humans. The animals seemed to have picked up the scent of a corpse on Kate’s trousers and on the key fob of the couple’s rental car. (The McCann camp claimed that as a doctor Kate had been near corpses, but since she is a general practitioner the press scoffed at the explanation.)
More than any other evidence, it was the surprising reaction of the dogs from Britain that led Portuguese police to declare the couple official suspects. The investigators thought they had other clues: there was DNA possibly belonging to Madeleine in the McCann car, rented 25 days after the child vanished, but as that car had at various times contained the missing girl’s hairbrushes and sandals, and the soiled diapers of her siblings, the evidence is not wholly conclusive. Moreover, forensic DNA specialist Nigel Hodge, who has investigated more than 1,000 criminal cases, tells me that, in very rare instances, “it is possible for sisters to have the same DNA profile.”
In mid-September, Kate and Gerry were brought in separately to a dingy four-story police station for questioning—Kate first, for 11 hours, and on the next day 7 more. The questioning was interminable, says Trish, who was at the station, in part because “there was no interpreter. At one point there were six people in front of Kate—cops and a lawyer—and they were all just speaking Portuguese!”
Finally, she adds, Kate was given a long list of interpreters, many of whom lived 200 miles away in Lisbon, and told to choose. “Kate was furious at that as well,” Trish recalls.
Over and over again, I am told by a McCann family member, Kate was shown footage of the dogs. It was the animals’ reaction to the scent inside the McCanns’ rental car that particularly interested the authorities.
But the police had more on their minds, as they informed Kate. From what they’d read of her diary, she was clearly a stressed-out mother. Her children were difficult to put to sleep, weren’t they? They needed sedatives to sleep, perhaps? Maybe that’s how Madeleine died? Will you confess, they asked.
Then the police went over a passage from the borrowed Bible found in Kate’s villa: verses in the second Book of Samuel, Chapter 12. The page containing the passage was crumpled. The verses in question deal with the illness and death of King David’s child, a tragedy that occurs after David “scorned the Lord.” Obviously such a page had meaning for her, the police said.
To compound matters, one of Kate’s lawyers, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, relayed to her that if she confessed to having inadvertently killed her daughter and disposing of the corpse, things might go easier. Her jail term might even be as little as two years.
“I’m not going to f.....g lie!” Kate barked. The next day she stopped answering a fair number of police questions. “She had already answered some of them,” says Trish. “And her lawyer told her she didn’t have to answer questions.”
“As I suppose you know,” Pike, the trauma counselor, tells me, “the police told her during the interviews that her other two children might be taken away.”
It was time to go home, Gerry decided by September 9. But not alone.
“When Gerry and Kate were about to go home to Britain, Gerry phoned Sky News and said, ‘We’re going home on EasyJet, be on it!’ ” recalls Esther Addley, who has written incisively about the McCanns for The Guardian.
On the couple’s return, there was further pain to contend with. More than 17,000 people had signed a petition suggesting that Leicestershire social services investigate them for leaving their three small children completely alone in the villa.
(to be continued)
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 18, 2015, 01:12:18 PM
Part 4
At the time we did it, it was not irresponsible!” Gerry snaps. It is the one subject on which he is quite defensive, arguing first one way, then conceding the opposite: “Of course we feel guilty about not having been there, and that is just something we have to deal with for the rest of our lives. You are not asking anything we don’t think about on a daily basis. We live this 24 hours a day.” His lips twist as he struggles for composure. “But I can’t talk to you about the details of what happened. I live under threat from the Portuguese—if I do talk—of two years’ imprisonment.” He smiles grimly. “It seems to be the same sentence as disposing of a child’s body.”
The mayor of tiny Praia da Luz, Manuel Domingues Borba, announced just a few weeks ago that he for one “would never leave my children sleeping alone and go to dinner in a foreign country.” The McCanns, in his opinion, are “guilty of negligence at the very least.” The Portuguese police, under chief Alípio Ribeiro, are reviewing the case. Some of their detectives, I am told, will likely be flying to Britain soon to re-interview the McCanns, although no official request has yet been made. Should the McCanns actually be charged and tried, their legal strategy will be to focus, in part, on what they claim is the unreliability of evidence turned up by the dogs and to try to move the trial to Britain from Portugal. The McCanns live in perpetual limbo. There is no exit.
By early January there was more bad news: Correio da Manhă, a Portuguese newspaper, claimed that the Policia Judiciária were about to deliver an interim report suggesting the McCanns were “prime suspects” after all, who could have accidentally killed Madeleine and then disposed of her body. Or, the report added, perhaps the child was in fact abducted. In other words, eight months after the little girl vanished, the police still know nothing.
Lately, word has leaked out that the McCanns feel abandoned even by Gordon Brown, once their close ally. Their spokesman doesn’t quite deny this. “That was one of our backers who said it. We would never be that impolitic,” he says. “But it is true that we have requested a meeting with the prime minister to show him the strength of our case, to explain Kate and Gerry’s innocence—and yet all we’ve been offered is a medium-level-consular meeting, which we rejected.”
Occasionally their $1,200-an-hour lawyer Angus McBride, whose salary is defrayed by Virgin founder Sir Richard Branson, Scottish businessman Stephen Winyard, and Brian Kennedy, a multi-millionaire rugby-team owner, drops in on the British tabloids to protest headlines such as portuguese paper smear: “kate killed madeleine as gerry played tennis.”
For Kate, this is all too much. At nights, as her mother recently informed one newspaper, she awakes and thinks Madeleine has come home. While her husband and I talk, she ducks into the local Catholic church, unable, despite her earlier resolve, to face a single question.
Kate is fragile, I say to Gerry.
“That is undoubtedly true,” he concedes. “It’s very difficult to describe this situation. One month, three months, five months, five and a half months. And I know now that, probably, the chances of getting Madeleine back are slim. You know, it’s difficult. Very difficult.” He swallows hard. “You might never see her again. But still you have the hope. Still.”
On Sunday he will join his despairing wife in church, even though, as Gerry puts it, “I am not the most religious person in the world.” The whole McCann family is going to church more often, for that matter, even his skeptical older brother.
“What would you do when you’re desperate?” says John. “You start to ask the big questions again: Why does this happen?”
And?
“And,” he says wearily, “I think there’s probably still no God.”
Judy Bachrach is a Vanity Fair contributing editor.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on June 18, 2015, 01:33:03 PM
Jornal da Tarde 09/08/2007 video https://youtu.be/r_mAQvclYAc From 20 seconds to 29 seconds what is happening?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on June 18, 2015, 03:43:29 PM
Now who said this...................
' "She just said, 'Help me, please help me'. She said, 'We've been searching all night until 4.30am, and then everybody left us'. At that stage there was only one police officer at the door. They didn't know what to do. So I phoned GMTV." '
8**8:/:
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on June 18, 2015, 03:57:50 PM
' "She just said, 'Help me, please help me'. She said, 'We've been searching all night until 4.30am, and then everybody left us'. At that stage there was only one police officer at the door. They didn't know what to do. So I phoned GMTV." '
8**8:/:
Someone who lived in the same street as Brown's brother. Your point is.....?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Anna on June 18, 2015, 11:54:11 PM
There were police there all night after the crime scene police left at about 4.30am. after this time, IIRC Kate asked Fiona to keep an eye on the twins, while she and Gerry went out searching together.
Emma knight Quite a bit later that night I remember the police asking everyone to leave the apartment. I received a call from John informing me that he had arranged for another apartment for the McCanns. I went to reception and helped Lyndsey to move the two cots to the new apartment
The McCanns went to the new apartment and I remember seeing Kate and Mrs Payne seated on the sofa, each holding one of the twins. I left the new apartment at 04.30 in the morning after instructions from John Hill. I was the last to leave, the police had already left, but I left my number saying that I was available for anything that might be needed.
New apartment was The Paynes apartment for that night, I think. It was in the morning that they moved to the new apartment. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post112.html#p112
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 19, 2015, 12:00:06 AM
There were police there all night after the crime scene police left at about 4.30am. after this time, IIRC Kate asked Fiona to keep an eye on the twins, while she and Gerry went out searching together.
Emma knight Quite a bit later that night I remember the police asking everyone to leave the apartment. I received a call from John informing me that he had arranged for another apartment for the McCanns. I went to reception and helped Lyndsey to move the two cots to the new apartment
The McCanns went to the new apartment and I remember seeing Kate and Mrs Payne seated on the sofa, each holding one of the twins. I left the new apartment at 04.30 in the morning after instructions from John Hill. I was the last to leave, the police had already left, but I left my number saying that I was available for anything that might be needed.
New apartment was The Paynes apartment for that night, I think. It was in the morning that they moved to the new apartment. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post112.html#p112
DP and Gerry went out searching between 3 and 4am. They went to the beach and reported to be seen by the church.
Kate and Gerry didn't go out until after 5am when nearly everyone was asleep in PDL. It was still cold and dark when they left the Payne's apartment according to Fiona. They were seen at around 7am by an officer in a nearby street.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on June 19, 2015, 01:54:38 AM
The Mccans as a couple searched after daybreak, as evidenced by the police saying they spotted them out, not during the night. Kate did no search at all before then, her husband went out s for a bit, again as evidenced by police when they were asked by her m for directions to the church,
Though, she did tell the world 5 years after the event that she went out running down the streets shortly after the events, but not before her book was published, in all the interviews given in media. Odd that, considering the flack she got for so long that she did not search at all.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on June 19, 2015, 02:08:02 AM
When were the 2nd set of phones given to the McCanns? By the 2nd night, the world & his brother were watching the parents. I doubt there was any place they went without being trailed by a reporter.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on June 19, 2015, 02:11:20 AM
@misty they were both delivered to DP at the police station in Portimao on May 4th
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on June 19, 2015, 02:36:37 AM
@misty they were both delivered to DP at the police station in Portimao on May 4th
Thank you, Pegasus. I did know that - hence I cannot understand Pathfinder's insistence on tracking phones which they didn't have on the night of the 3rd. By the time the parents returned from the police station on the 4th, every movement was undoubtedly being scrutinised.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on June 19, 2015, 03:37:29 AM
Thank you, Pegasus. I did know that - hence I cannot understand Pathfinder's insistence on tracking phones which they didn't have on the night of the 3rd. By the time the parents returned from the police station on the 4th, every movement was undoubtedly being scrutinised.
The phones tracked in the published files include all 9 group mobiles but not the two extra mobiles. But the fact they were delivered to a police station is a big clue they are not covert! Also there is no published tracking of another mobile which was provided by police to deal with ransomers.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 20, 2015, 10:32:58 AM
Gonçalo Amaral, former coordinator of the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, launches a new book with a compilation of essays on crime in Portugal, signed by several specialists in the matter. Coordinated by Gonçalo Amaral himself, “Justice and Delinquency” is a compilation of opinions, proposals, solutions and analysis written by judges, lawyers, prosecutors, a criminal investigation coordinator, a journalist and a psychologist. Among the authors of “Justice and Delinquency” are: Rui Rangel (Judge), Maria dos Santos Ribeiro (Judge), Maria Clara Oliveira (Prosecutor), Marta Daniela Seixas (Deputy Prosecutor), Paulo Sargento (psychologist and university professor), Hernâni Carvalho (journalist and psychologist), and the lawyer Manuel Augusto Meireis. The former coordinator of the Judicial Police (PJ), author of “Maddie, the truth of the lie” (“Maddie, l’enquęte interdite”, the French version available in Belgium and France), will present his new book “Justice and Delinquency” on 25 June 2009, at the bookshop “Alethea” in Lisbon.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 20, 2015, 10:52:27 AM
The phones tracked in the published files include all 9 group mobiles but not the two extra mobiles. But the fact they were delivered to a police station is a big clue they are not covert! Also there is no published tracking of another mobile which was provided by police to deal with ransomers.
They need to be investigated. If they aren't in the PJ files then they didn't know about them.
01:00:40 Male knocks at the door, DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room. 01:02:37 DC MESSIAH re-enters the room. 1485 "You thought we'd finished didn't you.' Reply "I know.' 1485 "(Laughs)' Reply "Not quite.' 1485 "Not quite, no. Not long now to go. Okay, I'm just gonna go over these, this phone issue again.' Reply "Yeah, yeah.' 1485 "I just, there's just some areas that I've been asked to point out, or been asked to speak to you about.' Reply "Yeah.' 1485 "Who lent you these phones that SA had organised for you'' Reply "Err I mean, S brother err is a gentleman called Nand N's wife N had got friends out in the Algarve and they were just you know basic people who were just willing to help us in whatever capacity it was, whether we wanted a room for the night or anything and they asked is there anything we can do, err whether they could do, and err and that was, you know, that was one thing we said well actually you know err Kate's phone's nearly ran out, we're sat, we don't know how long we're gonna be at the Police Station you know could, you know, can they, you know is there any way of getting phones to us just so that you know, we can, for communication. Err and err so that was, that was a capacity really err of people.' 01:04:02 1485 "And where were these phones, when did these phones arrive'' Reply "Err when did we get the phones' When we were at the Police Station, err you know as, you know I just asked whether I could just pop downstairs there was someone who's brought us phones and they said yeah, so I quickly popped downstairs, got the phones, and took them back into the Police Station. Err I can't remember if there was any power in them when we opened them up but err so then that was, you know, so the phones were just, you know because we hadn't got any other, anything there, so.' 1485 "And what phones were they' Do you remember what sort of, what make they were'' Reply "Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can't tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.' 1485 "Yeah, how many phones were there'' Reply "There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they'd got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.' 1485 "Yeah.' 01:05:33 Reply "So err yeah.' 1485 "So the two phones, you've kept one and gave one to Kate and Gerry'' Reply "Kate and Gerry yeah.' 1485 "And do you have the numbers of those phones in your phone'' Reply "I don't, no, no.' 1485 "Where are these phones now'' Reply "Err as far as I am aware that they, you know, remained in Portugal, again'' 1485 "With whom'' Reply "With Kate and Gerry.' 1485 "So Kate and Gerry took possession of that second phone which you had'' Reply "Well, they certainly kept the first one, the second one, the second one, sorry, no I think that's rubbish. I think I, I may well have got the, I might have got the second phone. Actually I've got a sneaky feeling when I got home I tried the UK SIM card in it and it didn't work so I could well have got the second phone.' 1485 "So is it likely that this second phone is at your home address'' Reply "Err that is a strong possibility.' 1485 "So two Samsung phones.' Reply "Yeah, yeah.' 1485 "One is, to your knowledge, still with Kate and Gerry.' Reply "Yeah.' 1485 "The other one you may well have at your home address.' Reply "Yeah, yeah.' 1485 "Did you use the phones often'' Reply "Not'' 1485 "In Portugal'' Reply "Not a great deal no, no, it was, it was, first of all you know we didn't have any numbers in them already and then with being a Portuguese phone you know it was just a bit more difficult so we, if we ever used them, I mean which wasn't often, we'd perhaps call Kate and Gerry using the Portuguese phone, but it wasn't a kind of religious oh we'll just use the, that Portuguese phone to err you know establish communication.' 1485 "Yeah.' 01:07:23 Reply "Err you know and the other reason that we, we had the, one of the phones is because Fiona didn't have a phone either so you know, so it's like she had the use of the other phone as well.' 1485 "Right, so out of the two of you then, who predominantly used that phone'' Reply "I'd say Fiona.' 1485 "Fiona'' Reply "Yeah.' 1485 "And has it been used since it's been in the UK'' Reply "No.' 1485 "Okay, okay.' Reply "And I'm just trying to think you know how much, you know the, the, I can't remember you know obviously we were there for four weeks after but when the actual credit ran out, because I remember the credit running out and not being able to actually put anymore on even though it's supposed to be quite straight forward but again, you know whether that was after, you know, three weeks of being out there or whatever I can't remember.' 1485 "Yeah, how many times do you think you topped it up then'' Reply "I don't, I don't think we did, I don't think I did. I don't think I could work out how to do it to be honest.' 1485 "So when both of them arrived both of them had credit on them'' Reply "They put, I think they put, I think err I think they put forty pound credit or forty euros, you know, which seemed to last a lot longer than the amount of credit we were (inaudible) we were using our own err mobile phones.' 1485 "Just wait there a second I'll just (inaudible).' Reply "Okay.' 01:08:40 DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room. 01:09:00 DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room. 1485 "All done.' Reply "Okay.' 1485 "The phone, is it likely that I could collect it when I take you home'' Reply "I can certainly have a look for it and I can give you, I mean if you, if you wanted to have my other mobile phone with all the numbers in and you know if you can access text messages on that you're welcome to have that phone.' 1485 "Okay, do you know where you'd be able to put your hand on it if you'' Reply "Err the Samsung one, again, there was a Vodaphone bag that was knocking around, and that would be where it is if err I can find it. Fiona might know.' 1485 "Okay, perhaps you could give her a call or something.' Reply "Yeah, yeah.' 1485 "Alright then, it's now sixteen forty on this date.' 01:09:48 The interview ceased at 1640 hours when the tape recorder was switched off. SIGNATURE (Sgd) SLS
They need to be investigated. If they aren't in the PJ files then they didn't know about them.
01:00:40 Male knocks at the door, DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room. 01:02:37 DC MESSIAH re-enters the room. 1485 "You thought we'd finished didn't you.' Reply "I know.' 1485 "(Laughs)' Reply "Not quite.' 1485 "Not quite, no. Not long now to go. Okay, I'm just gonna go over these, this phone issue again.' Reply "Yeah, yeah.' 1485 "I just, there's just some areas that I've been asked to point out, or been asked to speak to you about.' Reply "Yeah.' 1485 "Who lent you these phones that SA had organised for you'' Reply "Err I mean, S brother err is a gentleman called Nand N's wife N had got friends out in the Algarve and they were just you know basic people who were just willing to help us in whatever capacity it was, whether we wanted a room for the night or anything and they asked is there anything we can do, err whether they could do, and err and that was, you know, that was one thing we said well actually you know err Kate's phone's nearly ran out, we're sat, we don't know how long we're gonna be at the Police Station you know could, you know, can they, you know is there any way of getting phones to us just so that you know, we can, for communication. Err and err so that was, that was a capacity really err of people.' 01:04:02 1485 "And where were these phones, when did these phones arrive'' Reply "Err when did we get the phones' When we were at the Police Station, err you know as, you know I just asked whether I could just pop downstairs there was someone who's brought us phones and they said yeah, so I quickly popped downstairs, got the phones, and took them back into the Police Station. Err I can't remember if there was any power in them when we opened them up but err so then that was, you know, so the phones were just, you know because we hadn't got any other, anything there, so.' 1485 "And what phones were they' Do you remember what sort of, what make they were'' Reply "Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can't tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.' 1485 "Yeah, how many phones were there'' Reply "There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they'd got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.' 1485 "Yeah.' 01:05:33 Reply "So err yeah.' 1485 "So the two phones, you've kept one and gave one to Kate and Gerry'' Reply "Kate and Gerry yeah.' 1485 "And do you have the numbers of those phones in your phone'' Reply "I don't, no, no.' 1485 "Where are these phones now'' Reply "Err as far as I am aware that they, you know, remained in Portugal, again'' 1485 "With whom'' Reply "With Kate and Gerry.' 1485 "So Kate and Gerry took possession of that second phone which you had'' Reply "Well, they certainly kept the first one, the second one, the second one, sorry, no I think that's rubbish. I think I, I may well have got the, I might have got the second phone. Actually I've got a sneaky feeling when I got home I tried the UK SIM card in it and it didn't work so I could well have got the second phone.' 1485 "So is it likely that this second phone is at your home address'' Reply "Err that is a strong possibility.' 1485 "So two Samsung phones.' Reply "Yeah, yeah.' 1485 "One is, to your knowledge, still with Kate and Gerry.' Reply "Yeah.' 1485 "The other one you may well have at your home address.' Reply "Yeah, yeah.' 1485 "Did you use the phones often'' Reply "Not'' 1485 "In Portugal'' Reply "Not a great deal no, no, it was, it was, first of all you know we didn't have any numbers in them already and then with being a Portuguese phone you know it was just a bit more difficult so we, if we ever used them, I mean which wasn't often, we'd perhaps call Kate and Gerry using the Portuguese phone, but it wasn't a kind of religious oh we'll just use the, that Portuguese phone to err you know establish communication.' 1485 "Yeah.' 01:07:23 Reply "Err you know and the other reason that we, we had the, one of the phones is because Fiona didn't have a phone either so you know, so it's like she had the use of the other phone as well.' 1485 "Right, so out of the two of you then, who predominantly used that phone'' Reply "I'd say Fiona.' 1485 "Fiona'' Reply "Yeah.' 1485 "And has it been used since it's been in the UK'' Reply "No.' 1485 "Okay, okay.' Reply "And I'm just trying to think you know how much, you know the, the, I can't remember you know obviously we were there for four weeks after but when the actual credit ran out, because I remember the credit running out and not being able to actually put anymore on even though it's supposed to be quite straight forward but again, you know whether that was after, you know, three weeks of being out there or whatever I can't remember.' 1485 "Yeah, how many times do you think you topped it up then'' Reply "I don't, I don't think we did, I don't think I did. I don't think I could work out how to do it to be honest.' 1485 "So when both of them arrived both of them had credit on them'' Reply "They put, I think they put, I think err I think they put forty pound credit or forty euros, you know, which seemed to last a lot longer than the amount of credit we were (inaudible) we were using our own err mobile phones.' 1485 "Just wait there a second I'll just (inaudible).' Reply "Okay.' 01:08:40 DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room. 01:09:00 DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room. 1485 "All done.' Reply "Okay.' 1485 "The phone, is it likely that I could collect it when I take you home'' Reply "I can certainly have a look for it and I can give you, I mean if you, if you wanted to have my other mobile phone with all the numbers in and you know if you can access text messages on that you're welcome to have that phone.' 1485 "Okay, do you know where you'd be able to put your hand on it if you'' Reply "Err the Samsung one, again, there was a Vodaphone bag that was knocking around, and that would be where it is if err I can find it. Fiona might know.' 1485 "Okay, perhaps you could give her a call or something.' Reply "Yeah, yeah.' 1485 "Alright then, it's now sixteen forty on this date.' 01:09:48 The interview ceased at 1640 hours when the tape recorder was switched off. SIGNATURE (Sgd) SLS
Oh ... I see ... we are still on about the phones.
Wonder why it is that despite having access to all that information SY have given it a body swerve and have concentrated on the phone pings of people who were in the vicinity at the time and may have had the opportunity and the motive to snatch a child and whose phones were not given the same attention the preferred suspects' phones were given. There are arguidos in this case ... not the people you would like them to be ... but worth waiting to see how the evidence against them works out or is dismissed.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: DCI on June 20, 2015, 06:27:47 PM
The phones tracked in the published files include all 9 group mobiles but not the two extra mobiles. But the fact they were delivered to a police station is a big clue they are not covert! Also there is no published tracking of another mobile which was provided by police to deal with ransomers.
No mobile was provided to Kate and Gerry to deal with ransomers. The phone calls were all made to the PJ. The emails from someone saying they knew where Madeliene was, also went to the PJ first.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on June 20, 2015, 06:40:06 PM
Lety's not forget where Correia, the mnan hired by the mccanns, thought Madeleine was.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on June 30, 2015, 12:44:06 PM
http://youtu.be/DwjI1RVGZSU?t=3m43s dog enters 5J
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 30, 2015, 01:04:16 PM
Just watching that @ 3.51, the blind was being raised from the inside - therefore someone must have found a key (unless there was a warrant to force the lock).
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on June 30, 2015, 01:46:41 PM
Just watching that @ 3.51, the blind was being raised from the inside - therefore someone must have found a key (unless there was a warrant to force the lock).
They did not have a key and did not force the door open. The door is deadlocked shut unopenable from out or in. That's why they put dog in through that window (which they opened from inside).
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on June 30, 2015, 02:32:46 PM
They did not have a key and did not force the door open. The door is deadlocked shut unopenable from out or in. That's why they put dog in through that window (which they opened from inside).
Sorry, Pegasus, I really don't follow.
If a blind is seen to be being raised with no visible means of someone doing so from the outside, wouldn't that indicate that someone was raising it from the inside?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on June 30, 2015, 04:18:04 PM
If a blind is seen to be being raised with no visible means of someone doing so from the outside, wouldn't that indicate that someone was raising it from the inside?
Yes. The police got in through a different opening Carana, video coming .... 13:00-13:05 http://youtu.be/fTXM5DCV4jU?t=13m
"More than a dozen officers climbed over balconies and through windows ... they appeared to be targeting flats left unoccupied and locked up" (SunNewspaper 11 May 2007)
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on June 30, 2015, 10:07:21 PM
Johan Selle, the director of operations at iJet, the US firm that managed the Find Madeleine phone line, revealed that for a year nobody even asked his company if they could listen to any of the calls received. Mr Selle said his operators, in Annapolis, Virginia, had answered 'hundreds of calls', but the information seemed wasted - possibly squandering valuable leads. He said: 'We delivered Oakley a report with a summary of the calls and said if they wanted to come back they could listen to the recording, but nobody did. 'For someone with an understanding of the case it would be very easy for some to say that maybe 80 or 90 per cent of the calls were hogwash, but there may be a percentage where one would say maybe we should listen to this one or listen to that one. But our understanding is that this never took place. 'We are not sure whether Halligen provided our report to the family or to the trust or to those working with them or to the teams working after him, because no one came back to us. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1231757/Madeleine-McCann-investigator-didnt-listen-ANY-tip-offs-given-hotline--squandered-500-000.html
Did people at the Madeleine Fund never wonder for a whole year whether anyone was calling the hotline their donators were paying for?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on June 30, 2015, 10:26:55 PM
25 October 2007 ... Later, the McCanns said the phone line, which is manned by private detectives and targeted at Spain, Portugal and north Africa, had drawn "a very good response". However, they would not comment on the number of calls made to the +34 902 300213 number or whether any new leads had developed. Mr Mitchell said: "I can confirm we have already had a very good response to our confidential, anonymous phone line in Spain". http://news.sky.com/story/548793/kate-mccanns-tv-tears-hint-at-madeleine-grief
This is presumably the hotline handled by a call centre in the US see the Mail article I posted above?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on June 30, 2015, 11:39:13 PM
Perhaps instead of handing over half a a million pounds (allegedly) to PIs who they didn't know from Adam, (I wondered who recommended them?), they could have had a phone line manned by "real people" preferably a group they "trusted" and then have any info passed onto the "PIs".
After the alledged debacle, there was nothing stopping them doing some appeal to ask those who had called in to call again on a newly set up number. It's not as if the money for it wasn't there. And it wouldn't be the first time the Mccanns asked people in a public appeal to get in touch with them even IF they had "already" called the police.
Leaving no stone unturned doesn't seem to have materialised in reality past the soundbite.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 01, 2015, 02:08:50 AM
Yes. The police got in through a different opening Carana, video coming .... 13:00-13:05 http://youtu.be/fTXM5DCV4jU?t=13m
"More than a dozen officers climbed over balconies and through windows ... they appeared to be targeting flats left unoccupied and locked up" (SunNewspaper 11 May 2007)
I watched the video - actually quite interesting.
I'm still unclear as to what the 'different opening' is - and knowing the answer to that would be very interesting.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on July 01, 2015, 02:35:15 AM
I'm still unclear as to what the 'different opening' is - and knowing the answer to that would be very interesting.
They bravely climbed from the balcony of another apartment, and got in through a window that wasn't locked. Then inside but still unable to open the front door, they unlocked and opened the only dog-accessible window. It's the only possible solution.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 01, 2015, 03:31:43 PM
They bravely climbed from the balcony of another apartment, and got in through a window that wasn't locked. Then inside but still unable to open the front door, they unlocked and opened the only dog-accessible window. It's the only possible solution.
Since you have obviously spent more time on this than I have, I would appreciate your view as to whether the following layout is correct or not.
I though 5J was somewhere near the middle but this is putting it as the extreme W end.
That would narrow the method of entry to going into 5I and nipping across the roof to an open window.
If they chose that route it suggests it was easier than trying to get in via a locked front door or a front window that was not open.
Which in turn suggests that getting through a locked front door or a locked front window on 5A was not the easiest route. Unless one had a key.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on July 01, 2015, 03:51:01 PM
Since you have obviously spent more time on this than I have, I would appreciate your view as to whether the following layout is correct or not.
I though 5J was somewhere near the middle but this is putting it as the extreme W end.
That would narrow the method of entry to going into 5I and nipping across the roof to an open window.
If they chose that route it suggests it was easier than trying to get in via a locked front door or a front window that was not open.
Which in turn suggests that getting through a locked front door or a locked front window on 5A was not the easiest route. Unless one had a key.
I think 5J is at the far end of the block: according to the cleaner it seems to be one of the few properties not operated by the holiday company. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_CLEANER.htm
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 01, 2015, 06:26:29 PM
I think 5J is at the far end of the block: according to the cleaner it seems to be one of the few properties not operated by the holiday company. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_CLEANER.htm
Well done, Brietta.
I see I have been a proper wally in asking about a photo when I did not post the photo I was asking about. 8)-)))
The layout I was asking about is, indeed, the one in Brietta's photo.
And, yup, the cleaner did not clean 5J, hence no keys, hence another way in was required. She did clean 5I, hence key, hence potential route into 5J.
I am still asking if 5J is at the W end of the block, just to be certain. The cleaner also cleaned 5K. If that is really up on the E end of the block, the police did not get into 5J that way.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on July 01, 2015, 09:44:11 PM
5J is an end apartment (west side) on the second story of the building.
See the 3rd and 4th images on the page here:
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic179-10.html
Block 5 on the right hand side of second image.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on July 01, 2015, 11:26:08 PM
Since you have obviously spent more time on this than I have, I would appreciate your view as to whether the following layout is correct or not.
I though 5J was somewhere near the middle but this is putting it as the extreme W end.
That would narrow the method of entry to going into 5I and nipping across the roof to an open window.
If they chose that route it suggests it was easier than trying to get in via a locked front door or a front window that was not open.
Which in turn suggests that getting through a locked front door or a locked front window on 5A was not the easiest route. Unless one had a key.
5J is the west end apartment on the first floor of block 5. It has no steps up to its balcony. Initial PJ/GNR access was possibly by climbing from 5i balcony to an unlocked window on south face of 5J ?
BTW 4G is the east end apartment on the first floor of block 4. Block 4 is built on higher ground than block 5. So 4G directly overlooks 5J.
Re 5A. A burglar with a key would not open a window. The only burglar-accessible window was the child bedroom window. It was closed but not locked IMO. See statements of both adult occupants - neither of them had ever checked or pressed the lock button. See also T7 statements - after the disappearance they checked their windows and found some were closed but not locked.
IMO the 5G + 5L + 4A burglaries / attempted burglaries were probably all by heriberto method on the one accesible window which was unlocked but with shutter down. It is important to note that 4A is almost identical to 5A.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 02, 2015, 12:55:16 AM
How Tannerman efits were released.
Madeleine: Brown demands action from the Portuguese police
From ANDREW WILKS in Praia da Luz Last updated at 18:38 27 May 2007
Gordon Brown intervened in the hunt for missing Madeleine McCann after a series of phone conversations with her father. The Chancellor was told by Gerry McCann that he was concerned police were not being "forthcoming" with information. In particular, Mr McCann and his wife Kate felt they should make public a description of a possible suspect.
Through the Foreign Office, Mr Brown arranged a meeting between senior Portuguese officers and the couple, which led to the release of details of a potential sighting of Madeleine being carried by her abductor on the night she went missing. The Prime Minister-in-waiting's involvement emerged as Prince Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall also showed their support for the McCanns.
They issued a statement which said they had been following the case "with deep concern for the parents and fervently hope that Madeleine will be safely returned to her family as soon as possible. Their Royal Highnesses' thoughts and prayers remain with Mr and Dr McCann at this very difficult time." It was revealed that the McCanns may visit Rome this week to meet the Pope. The couple say their Catholic faith has sustained them since four-year-old Madeleine was snatched. The Chancellor, who has a son a few months younger than Madeleine, spoke to Mr McCann on three occasions early last week and pledged support from the very top of Government. A spokesman for the McCanns said: "The conversations took place against the background of the Chancellor's earlier offer to help when he met and spoke to other members of the family in the UK."
The McCanns said their meeting with police was "amicable and very constructive". They welcomed the decision to release details of a man seen in Praia da Luz on the night of Madeleine's disappearance. He was said to be white, 35 to 40, medium build, 5ft 10in, wearing a dark jacket and light beige trousers. He was possibly carrying a child. The McCanns said: "The release of this important information followed an earlier meeting we had with senior police officers. We feel sure this sighting of a man with what appeared to be a child in his arms is both significant and relevant to Madeleine's abduction."
Portuguese police have known of the sighting for three weeks but because of laws which forbid the release of details of an investigation, it could not be disclosed. In other countries, such a vital piece of the jigsaw would have been released early on in the hope of witnesses coming forward. Although they have praised the efforts to find their daughter, the McCanns were said to be increasingly frustrated at delays and communication problems. The family threatened legal action to push for the information to be released. Earlier the couple told how they are so haunted by the abduction of their daughter that they sleep with their two other children, two-year-old twins Amelie and Sean. Kate, 38, said: "The twins sleep in the bed with us now. They help us to get through this. We are a strong family and they were so close to Madeleine, only 20 months apart."
In their first newspaper interview, the pair described how their lives have been turned inside out. Gerry, also 38, said he has woken every day distraught at not receiving a call to tell him Madeleine has been found safe. "My waking thought is that the phone by the bedside has not rung and that means Madeleine has not been found." Telling how she copes with not having her daughter around, Kate added: "I am better in the morning, it seems like a fresh start. Evenings are harder. I haven't been able to use the camera since I took that last photograph of Madeleine." The couple spoke before taking Amelie and Sean to a playground where the two children played on the swings and slide and darted in and out of a Wendy house. "The twins are so young they just get on with things but obviously we don't want them to forget about Madeleine,' said Kate. "We are hoping to see a child psychologist next week to explain what has happened to Madeleine to the twins."
Kate also relived the moment she realised her child had been abducted. "For a few seconds there was total disbelief. It was terrifying. You just don't expect in a million years that this could happen." Gerry added: "The way the scene was left means there was absolutely no doubt she had been abducted."
The British Prime Minister, Gordon Brown called the police counterpart of Mr.Gonçalo Amaral, in Leicester, to warn him that Gonçalo Amaral had been removed. Gonçalo Amaral was only given notice of his 'removal' from the case two hours after this call was made.
"When politics intrude into a criminal investigation, nothing will end well, whether the criminal investigation relates to a homicide, a burglary, a disappearance, or corruption.” (GA)
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on July 02, 2015, 08:25:49 AM
(snip) The British Prime Minister, Gordon Brown called the police counterpart of Mr.Gonçalo Amaral, in Leicester, to warn him that Gonçalo Amaral had been removed. Gonçalo Amaral was only given notice of his 'removal' from the case two hours after this call was made.
"When politics intrude into a criminal investigation, nothing will end well, whether the criminal investigation relates to a homicide, a burglary, a disappearance, or corruption.” (GA)
The person who Brown allegedly called varies.... in this version it was Socrates.
“And on the 2nd of October, after I was questioned by a paper, Diário de Notícias, about what I thought of the English police saying that Madeleine had been sighted in Morocco, I unburdened that they should worry about what really had happened to Madeleine instead of worrying about other situations because when the English police left Portugal, what was agreed upon between the Portuguese police and the English police was that the investigation had to move forward in terms of understanding how the death had occurred. The death of Madeleine McCann. And what had happened to the body.”
“We were not discussing abductions or that the child had been taken to become a sex slave, none of that. We were speaking about death and concealment of a body. And it’s on that 2nd of October that I leave. I left the investigation, it’s on that 2nd of October that Gordon Brown speaks with José Sócrates – it would be good if Mr José Sócrates would explain, if he is able to explain what happened – I think that his stance was one of – from what I could understand at that time, a stance of distance from the investigation, he didn’t give a lot of importance to Gordon Brown’s statement – Gordon Brown tried to involve the Portuguese prime minister in that controversy, so to speak.”
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic21993.html
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on July 02, 2015, 08:27:46 AM
From further on: Q: How is it possible that the English prime minister’s spokesman quit Tony Blair to become the McCanns’ spokesman within 24 hours?
“That’s another mystery within the mystery. And if we understand that little mystery, maybe we can understand what lies behind, not the disappearance, not the child’s death, but behind the protection – why protect this family, this couple?”
What's the mystery? He was seconded to the Foreign Office to help deal with the media.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on July 02, 2015, 08:44:22 AM
From further on: Q: How is it possible that the English prime minister’s spokesman quit Tony Blair to become the McCanns’ spokesman within 24 hours?
“That’s another mystery within the mystery. And if we understand that little mystery, maybe we can understand what lies behind, not the disappearance, not the child’s death, but behind the protection – why protect this family, this couple?”
What's the mystery? He was seconded to the Foreign Office to help deal with the media.
Is that in itself not a bit of mystery? Is that the sort of thing the FO routinely do?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 02, 2015, 09:03:44 AM
The person who Brown allegedly called varies.... in this version it was Socrates.
“And on the 2nd of October, after I was questioned by a paper, Diário de Notícias, about what I thought of the English police saying that Madeleine had been sighted in Morocco, I unburdened that they should worry about what really had happened to Madeleine instead of worrying about other situations because when the English police left Portugal, what was agreed upon between the Portuguese police and the English police was that the investigation had to move forward in terms of understanding how the death had occurred. The death of Madeleine McCann. And what had happened to the body.”
“We were not discussing abductions or that the child had been taken to become a sex slave, none of that. We were speaking about death and concealment of a body. And it’s on that 2nd of October that I leave. I left the investigation, it’s on that 2nd of October that Gordon Brown speaks with José Sócrates – it would be good if Mr José Sócrates would explain, if he is able to explain what happened – I think that his stance was one of – from what I could understand at that time, a stance of distance from the investigation, he didn’t give a lot of importance to Gordon Brown’s statement – Gordon Brown tried to involve the Portuguese prime minister in that controversy, so to speak.”
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic21993.html
He can talk to both on the same day. Socrates then notify LP.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on July 02, 2015, 09:04:24 AM
It may be a mystery if there is a hint of paranoia in the air ... and much of what is said in relation to Madeleine McCann's case smacks of just that.
IMO the most paranoid person in this whole case is Amaral - starting with his decision to put a UK police officer under surveillance and continuing throughout his book and interviews.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on July 02, 2015, 09:56:39 AM
It may be a mystery if there is a hint of paranoia in the air ... and much of what is said in relation to Madeleine McCann's case smacks of just that.
According to the spin at various points (not directly from Amaral himself), apparently the UK would refuse to sign the Lisbon Treaty if Amaral wasn't removed... He was too close to the truth and Gerry had to be protected at all costs because he was a VIP in the Scottish political circles, in between doing open-heart surgery and being a powerful figure in the nuclear industry. This was no doubt why the UK ordered NSA to pretend they'd didn't have any satellite close-up snaps of PdL that night. And the diplomatic exchange was Gerry in return for the UK protecting Socrates. I'm sure I've missed a few dozen more...
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on July 02, 2015, 11:35:04 AM
Is that in itself not a bit of mystery? Is that the sort of thing the FO routinely do?
It's happened before when there's been a UK media circus descending en masse in an overseas country that was ill-equipped to deal with it.
I'll post an example I have in mind when I eventually find it again. An ambassador's memoirs over some crisis or other that led to a media circus of a similar nature. It was not in Portugal.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Angelo222 on July 02, 2015, 12:05:04 PM
From further on: Q: How is it possible that the English prime minister’s spokesman quit Tony Blair to become the McCanns’ spokesman within 24 hours?
“That’s another mystery within the mystery. And if we understand that little mystery, maybe we can understand what lies behind, not the disappearance, not the child’s death, but behind the protection – why protect this family, this couple?”
What's the mystery? He was seconded to the Foreign Office to help deal with the media.
He wasn't Blair's spokesman, where did that idea come from? He was Head of the Cabinet Office Media Monitoring Unit. The reasons for jumping ship were probably a combination of an eye to the main chance and the long green folding stuff. Head of Media Monitoring is a junior post in government circles. An idea of salary can be found in here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/207336/CABINET-OFFICE-FINAL-_TEMPLATE-_MAR-2013-junior-data.csv/preview. The following is attributed to him: Clarence Mitchell was also involved in the coverage of the Soham murders. Clarence Mitchell made comparisons between this case and the case of Maddie McCann by saying, "An outcome similar to Holly and Jessica is possible. I don't want to, and I can't, talk about Robert Murat but some journalists who worked with me in Soham, and that were now in Portugal, saw resemblances between that case and Robert Murat. And I won't say more." Either he did say it or someone was trying to stitch him up early doors. Either way it begs the question why?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on July 02, 2015, 12:41:25 PM
Just looking at facts: At least one phonecall with Prime Minister T Blair. At least two phonecalls with Chancellor Of The Exchequer G Brown. At least one phonecall with Prime Minister's wife C Blair. At least one phonecall with Foreign Secretary D Miliband.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on July 02, 2015, 12:50:11 PM
It must be really useful when you know all the right people. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on July 02, 2015, 01:06:04 PM
It must be really useful when you know all the right people. 8(0(*
Apparently, high government officials have been in contact with the families of the atrocity in Tunisia. And have been in the past with the families of people taken hostage. As have government officials of other countries concerning their own citizens. At least in the modern era in the West.
What's the issue?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on July 02, 2015, 01:09:33 PM
Apparently, high government officials have been in contact with the families of the atrocity in Tunisia. And have been in the past with the families of people taken hostage. As have government officials of other countries concerning their own citizens. At least in the modern era in the West.
What's the issue?
I'm sure that in the cases you mention, the officials weren't being directly approached out of the blue. More likely that they (officials) would have made the initial contact.
I bet none of the officials had a phone call from their brother/sister/cousin saying 'one of my friends is having a problem in Tunisia - can you help?'
Slight difference, there.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on July 02, 2015, 02:02:24 PM
I'm sure that in the cases you mention, the officials weren't being directly approached out of the blue. More likely that they (officials) would have made the initial contact.
I bet none of the officials had a phone call from their brother/sister/cousin saying 'one of my friends is having a problem in Tunisia - can you help?'
Slight difference, there.
I have no idea. If any family member in Tunisia had felt isolated and had a way to make contact via someone who knew someone who may have been able to make contact, would that be a problem?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 02, 2015, 10:29:59 PM
Gerry's sister Philomena McCann, an Ullapool teacher who met Brown in the early stages of the campaign, told the Sunday Herald: "Gordon has spoken to Gerry, who has been quite pleased with him. Not everybody wants to do everything in the eyes of the media, and Gordon Brown set things in motion at the start.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 02, 2015, 10:34:09 PM
Let's have that quote then. I can find the following direct quote from her:
Philomna McCann: Well, the police have stepped up the search, much more than before anyway, and I spoke to Gerry about half an hour ago and he said that they are doing everything... the sniffer dogs are really evident. There's lots and lots of activity but he just thinks it's too little too late.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on July 02, 2015, 10:37:50 PM
Let's have that quote then. I can find the following direct quote from her:
Philomna McCann: Well, the police have stepped up the search, much more than before anyway, and I spoke to Gerry about half an hour ago and he said that they are doing everything... the sniffer dogs are really evident. There's lots and lots of activity but he just thinks it's too little too late.
Dear Alfred I'm not going to do your donkey work for you,keep digging and thou shalst find as the Lord saideth
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 02, 2015, 10:39:17 PM
Let's have that quote then. I can find the following direct quote from her:
Philomna McCann: Well, the police have stepped up the search, much more than before anyway, and I spoke to Gerry about half an hour ago and he said that they are doing everything... the sniffer dogs are really evident. There's lots and lots of activity but he just thinks it's too little too late.
Yes it was a bit late to find that Portuguese paedo gang (Gerry knows a lot!) but Kate forgives the abductor but not Amaral. She wants him to feel fear - maybe the tables will be turned.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on July 03, 2015, 08:53:43 AM
France
A 5-year-old girl was abducted in the middle of the night (Tues-Wed) out of her 1st-floor bedroom window, bundled in a bed cover. Neither her parents, nor her 10-year-old sister woke up. He took her to a nearby garden and she was able to scream for help, waking up neighbours. Though still in shock, she wasn't sexually assaulted. She was either dropped or fell and has a head wound. She's still in hospital.
Her description differs from that of a man seen running. According to her, he was wearing bermuda shorts, had longish hair and was bare-chested. One witness saw a man in jeans and a black T-shirt running between gardens.
A 5-year-old girl was abducted in the middle of the night (Tues-Wed) out of her 1st-floor bedroom window, bundled in a bed cover. Neither her parents, nor her 10-year-old sister woke up. He took her to a nearby garden and she was able to scream for help, waking up neighbours. Though still in shock, she wasn't sexually assaulted. She was either dropped or fell and has a head wound. She's still in hospital.
Her description differs from that of a man seen running. According to her, he was wearing bermuda shorts, had longish hair and was bare-chested. One witness saw a man in jeans and a black T-shirt running between gardens.
Let us hope that the little girl's head-wound turns not to be serious.
But a little girl, abducted from her bed while her parents were in the same premises ....
I don't want to score cheap political points in making a parallel with Madeleine's abduction, but it does just go to show that risk cannot be eliminated, even if parents are based in a premises, distinct from running regular checks while a handful of yards away ...
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on July 03, 2015, 01:06:08 PM
Let us hope that the little girl's head-wound turns not to be serious.
But a little girl, abducted from her bed while her parents were in the same premises ....
I don't want to score cheap political points in making a parallel with Madeleine's abduction, but it does just go to show that risk cannot be eliminated, even if parents are based in a premises, distinct from running regular checks while a handful of yards away ...
The police appear to be waiting for forensic results. The little girl has been interviewed once, and appears to have been lucid, and they're waiting for her to recover a bit more before interviewing her again.
At least one neighbour, upon being woken up by the little girl's screams from a nearby garden, noticed a man running away. it's not clear for the moment how many neighbours had woken up, nor exactly what they remember about a man running away. it's possible that there was more than one.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on July 03, 2015, 02:09:09 PM
This article demonstrates that what a child says should be taken seriously and not dismissed as of little importance http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/boys-nightmare-of-man-outside-his-bedroom-window-turns-out-to-be-true-in-new-zealand-10360289.html
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on July 03, 2015, 02:22:14 PM
This article demonstrates that what a child says should be taken seriously and not dismissed as of little importance http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/boys-nightmare-of-man-outside-his-bedroom-window-turns-out-to-be-true-in-new-zealand-10360289.html
The story of the little girl's abduction in the middle of the night that I posted today seems to be being taken seriously.
Whatever happened, she's alive and in hospital.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 03, 2015, 08:16:10 PM
This is interesting. over a year ago the police announced they were close to finding Melanie Road's killer (she was stabbed to death 30 years ago) and today they arrested a man. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-26864737.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on July 03, 2015, 08:36:35 PM
This is interesting. over a year ago the police announced they were close to finding Melanie Road's killer (she was stabbed to death 30 years ago) and today they arrested a man. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-26864737.
Good job the DNA wasn't too complex to analyse.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 03, 2015, 08:44:14 PM
I thought it was interesting because there was over a year between police announcements, in which presumably anyone following this case would no doubt have been scoffing and sneering at the police for their supposed inaction and silence.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on July 03, 2015, 08:53:01 PM
This is interesting. over a year ago the police announced they were close to finding Melanie Road's killer (she was stabbed to death 30 years ago) and today they arrested a man. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-26864737.
Indeed.
- On the minus side, somehow the police lost track of a relatively recent "significant witness".
- On the plus side, if they are attempting to check for DNA, then some samples from the crime scene or from the poor girl must have been preserved. (Forensic DNA testing was barely a twinkle in Sir Alec's eye at the time.)
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Angelo222 on July 04, 2015, 10:48:40 AM
The first police responders to the scene were alerted to a missing child. Since children had been known to wander off on their own and since there was no history of child abduction by strangers locally, the police were correct to initially start a neighbourhood search. Alerting Interpol, contacting port and airport authorities and setting up vehicle checkpoints at all border crossings was never a serious proposition in those early hours.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 04, 2015, 06:37:57 PM
- On the minus side, somehow the police lost track of a relatively recent "significant witness".
- On the plus side, if they are attempting to check for DNA, then some samples from the crime scene or from the poor girl must have been preserved. (Forensic DNA testing was barely a twinkle in Sir Alec's eye at the time.)
This man has now been charged. So from announcing "being close to finding the killer" to charging him = 14 months. Also 6+ years after the police's appeal on Crimewatch which turned up new clues.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on July 05, 2015, 09:24:56 AM
This man has now been charged. So from announcing "being close to finding the killer" to charging him = 14 months. Also 6+ years after the police's appeal on Crimewatch which turned up new clues.
I was just reading about this case.
- The original police team (some of whom came back out of retirement and worked on this latest drive) must have carefully preserved crime scene traces in anticipation of future advances in forensics.
- They managed to develop a list of 12,000 men known to live or have been visiting the area that night.
- It's unknown what new DNA technology has emerged that wasn't available even 10 years ago (assuming that they have run DNA tests in the past).
- The man is presumably not on a DNA database, nor is a close relative.
- They've been swabbing as many men on their list as possible to whittle down the suspect range.
- Last year's appeal resulted in a key witness seeing her arguing with a man she may have known near where she was found, and had a rough estimate of his age. The witness didn't know him, but thought he / she'd seen him around the area before, therefore possibly a local.
And it seems they may have finally hit the jackpot.
If he's the perp, at least it will bring some closure to the poor girl's family and friends.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 05:25:40 PM
Searching for Madeleine - Radio 4, 24 April 2008
By Steve Kingstone 24 April 2008
(music playing: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star)
(Presenter) With it’s spring flowers in bloom, the tennis courts booked out, and holiday makers unwinding besides two swimming pools, the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz looks much as it must have done a year ago, when two doctors from Leicestershire arrived here with their three small children.
To one side of the main pool is the tapas restaurant where Gerry and Kate McCann sat down to dinner with their friends on the night of May 3rd. On the other side about 50 metres away the ground floor corner apartment, where their children, Sean, Amelie and Madeleine had been sleeping. What followed would become one of the most extraordinary stories of recent times.
(Archive clip Kate McCann) Madeleine is a beautiful, bright, funny and caring little girl. Please, please do not hurt her, please give our little girl back.
(Archive clip news) Today, Kate and Gerry have both been declared Arguidos with no bail conditions.
(Archive clip Gerry McCann) We have played no part in the disappearance of our lovely daughter Madeleine.
(Presenter) It sometimes feels as if we have heard everything about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, and yet ultimately, no, nothing. But there are signs that the police investigation are reaching a conclusion. In this programme we’ll hear insights from Portugal; an exclusive interview with Gerry McCann; and for the very first time we will hear from Rachael Oldfield, one of the seven friends who was dining with Madeleine’s parents on the night of her disappearance.
(Archive news clip) BBC Radio 4, the news at 9 o’clock. Police in Portugal say a 3 year old British girl has gone missing from a holiday apartment. Madeleine McCann from Leicester was on holiday with her family in the Algarve (fades out)
(Religious singing)
(Archive clip Kate McCann) Gerry and I would just like to express our sincere gratitude (voice breaks, becomes tearful) and thanks to everybody, but particularly the local community here, who have offered so much support. Please continue to pray for Madeleine. She’s lovely.
(Archive clip – Port. Police) … related to the missing British child, Madeleine McCann (fades out)
(Presenter) For the Portuguese police, what had begun as a search for a missing child was, within 24 hours, being treated as a case of abduction. But a chaotic first news conference on the Monday, four days after Madeleine’s disappearance, I put a question to the spokesman for the enquiry, Chief Inspector Olegario de Sousa.
(Archive clip) “So how confident are you that she’s alive?” – “It is very difficult to say, to give you an answer, because I have no threats that are sustained that the child is alive or not.
The Chief Inspector would give no details about suspects, witnesses, or evidence supporting the abduction theory. In Portugal, he said, detectives were bound by strict judicial secrecy laws. So as police dog teams continued to search the area around the Ocean Club, much of the information about Madeleine’s disappearance was coming from her family back in Britain. Gerry McCann’s sister, Trish Cameron, was one of the first to speak publicly.
(Archive clip Trish Cameron) They last checked at half past nine, they were all sound asleep sleeping. Windows shut. Shutters Shut. Kate went back at ten o’clock to check. The front door was lying open. The window had been tampered with. The shutters had been jammied (sic) open, and Madeleine was missing.
(Presenter) But even at this early stage, there wasn’t there was signs that the Portuguese police had doubts about the families version of events. Within three days of Madeleine’s disappearance, local newspapers were quoting unnamed police sources as saying there was no evidence of a break-in, and that the little girl might have been taken by someone known to her.
(Archive news clips rolled in to one) (Big Ben Chimes) Police in the Algarve, looking for the missing child Madeleine McCann are searching a villa owned by a British family// A British man has been formerly named as a suspect in the case of the missing girl Madeleine McCann. He is believed to be Robert Murat, but his uncle insists (fade out)
(Presenter) On day 11 of the enquiry, the focus shifted to Robert Murat, a British man living with his elderly mother living just 100 metres from where Madeleine was last seen. From the start he denied any wrongdoing but, as an official suspect, or ‘arguido’ he was unable to discuss the case. Outside the family villa, I spoke to Mr Murat’s mother, Jenny.
“Hi Jenny, can I just ask how Robert is?” “Desperate” “Really? You can say what he’s doing can you?” “Nothing. What’s he doing? Pacing up and down all the time. (exhales deeply)” “What is his state of mind?” “Well what would your state of mind be if you’d been accused of abducting a child?!” “Which he didn’t do?” “Well of course he didn’t do it!” “Thank you, bye” “Bye”.
(Presenter) Later, Jenny Murat would explain to me her sons alibi. That on the night that Madeleine went missing, he had been at home, with her.
“That evening, I came back from taking the dogs for a walk, and Robert was already there, and we had dinner and we sat and talked. Because he’d been in England until the Tuesday, and I hadn’t really seen very much of him until that evening, and that was the first time I had really spend an evening with him."
“and you, the suspects mother, are absolutely convinced that he didn’t leave the house that night?”
“I know he didn’t leave the house that night!”.
(Presenter) Other witnesses would contradict that account. In their police statements, three friends of the McCann’s said that they had met Robert Murat on the streets of Praia da Luz, in the hours after Madeleine’s disappearance. The implication, strongly denied by Robert Murat, was that he was lying about his alibi.
(playing of Simple Minds and celebrity please find maddie appeal clips)
(Presenter) To the strains of a campaign theme tune “Don’t You Forget About Me” David Beckham lead the galaxy of stars lining up to help the McCann’s. An official ‘fund’ raised more than an million pounds in public donations.
(Archive clip of Gerry McCann) We will travel, wherever is necessary, to ensure people across Europe recognise Madeleine’s picture and we will encourage them to come forward with any information that might lead to Madeleine’s safe return.
(Archive news clip) The parents of the missing 4 year old girl Madeleine McCann have met the Pope in the Vatican.//The parents of Madeleine McCann have arrived in Madrid to launch a fresh set of appeals for her return// The parents of missing girl Madeleine McCann are visiting Morocco today as part of their campaign to find their daughter//
(Presenter) But back in Portugal the couples travels were greeted with some bemusement. Never had a Portuguese child received attention like this. Many found it incomprehensible that the McCann’s had left their children unattended. Alexandra Lorerdo (?) Is a Portuguese television reporter.
“Portuguese people nationwide were in shock that two adults could leave behind their your children, unattended, that the judicial system in Portugal actually considers this as negligence, so I would say that public opinion in Portugal, the initial reaction was certainly of emotional shock, but also somehow of mistrust. What kind of parents would leave behind their children?”
(Archive news clip – Kate McCann) I knew the situation we were in that night and I mean I’ve said all along I didn’t feel I was taking a risk.
(Presenter) Kate McCann was challenged on the issue on Woman’s Hour.
(Archive news clip – Kate McCann) I do feel desperately sorry I wasn’t with Madeleine at that minute when she was taken. I’ve had so many letters and comments sent to me from other families, and particularly other mums saying “We have done what you’ve done a hundred times over, do not blame yourself”.
(Archive news clip) “……German Radio – how do you deal with the fact that more and more people seem to be pointing the finger at you and they seem to imply that you may have something to do with it?”
(Presenter) The unthinkable. But for the McCann’s, in Berlin, just over a month after Madeleine’s disappearance.
(Archive clip Gerry McCann) "I have never heard before that anyone considers us suspects in this. The Portuguese Police certainly don’t. We were with a large group of people, and there is absolutely no way that Kate and I are involved in this abduction”.
(Presenter) At the time, many observers viewed that question in Berlin as shockingly insensitive. But in terms of where the police were heading it was extremely close to the mark. By the time I arrived back here in Praia da Luz in August, Portuguese detectives had been joined by a highly specialised team of British officers with sniffer dogs. Their area of expertise? Finding dead bodies.
(sound of chainsaw)
(Presenter) They would search the villa of the suspect, Robert Murat, using cutting equipment to clear the sprawling garden. It sounded dramatic, but after two days one of the British officers involved in the search told me they had found nothing, and were unlikely to return. As it turned out, the discovery that would change the course of the investigation was made not at the Murat villa, shrouded in trees behind me, but back at the Ocean Club, at the other end of the street, about two minutes walk away. Inside the McCann’s apartment, the British dogs found miniscule traces of what appeared to be blood, and it was later reported that they detected an odour – apparently suggesting that a dead body might have been there.
(Archive news clip) “BBC Radio 4. The news at midnight. Police in Portugal have acknowledged for the first time that Madeleine McCann might be dead.”
(Presenter) The police went public with their fears for Madeleine’s life, without presenting the new evidence to the McCann’s. The couples relationship with detectives was on the point of collapse.
(Archive news clip) “There has been a significant development in the Madeleine McCann case in the last few moments. We have just heard from the Algarve that the McCann’s spokeswoman has told the BBC that Kate McCann will be questioned again this morning by Portuguese police and she has been told that she will be named as a suspect.
(background noise of wolf whistles and geering)
(Presenter) There were geers from some onlookers as Madeleine’s mother arrived at Portimao police station for that second day of questioning. The family spokeswoman Justine McGuiness gave details of the accusations which detectives have put to Kate McCann. They centred on the couples hire car.
“They believe they have evidence to show that in some way she is involved in the death of her daughter, which of course is completely ludicrous. They have suggested that blood has been found in a hire car that they hired 25 days after Madeleine had been taken. She was absolutely horrified. Kate is a lovely mother to her children. She would never hurt them.”
(Presenter) Thinking back, that day back in Portimao was chaotic and almost surreal – the main square where I’m standing now, with it’s fountains, the café’s, the historic town hall was hosting a children’s fashion show and just yards away to my right in the police station that looks like a rundown apartment block, Kate and Gerry McCann were being accused of causing, and then covering up, their daughters death. In the square, the couples spokeswoman was providing regular updates to journalists of an ongoing police interview, and back home in Britain friends and relatives of the McCann’s were saying that Madeleine’s mother had been offered a plea bargain. Under Portuguese law, there is no formal system of plea bargains but friends insist that Kate McCann was encouraged to make a confession and furiously refused.
Her mother, Susan Healy, hinted that evidence might have been planted to incriminate her daughter.
(Archive clip Susan Healy) She knows that whatever evidence the Portuguese police have she was in no way involved in Madeleine’s disappearance, and therefore will be asking herself if there is evidence, how did it get there.
(Presenter) That suggestion is denied by the police, who would next confront Madeleine’s father. Gerry McCann emerged from the police station in the early hours of the morning flanked by a lawyer, and another media advisor, David Hughes.
(Archive clip David Hughes talks to reporters) “Today, Kate and Gerry have both been declared arguidos with no bail conditions, and no charges have been bought against them. The investigation continues”. (reporter) “David are they still insisting on their innocence?” (David Hughes) They certainly are. no further comment.
(music plays)
(Presenter) Nearly 36 hours after leaving the police station, the McCann’s were back home at Rothley in Leicester, but the story pursued them with sensational claims in both the British and Portuguese media. The couple would later win more than ˝ a million pounds in libel damages from four national newspaper. The main thrust of the media fightback was to refocus attention on the abduction theory.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 05:26:05 PM
(Archive clip Jane Tanner) Well as I was walking up the road, this man was walking across the top of the road. Probably about 10 or 15 feet, I was a reasonable distance away from them, and that person was carrying a child I could tell it was a child, and I could see the feet, the feet and the bottom of the pyjamas. The pyjamas had a pinky aspect to them, so you would presume a girl.
(Presenter) Jane Tanner was one of the seven friends who were dining with Kate and Gerry McCann on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance. In November she gave an interview to the BBCs Panorama programme. She said that about 45 minutes before the alarm was raised she had gone to check on her own children. On the way she had seen a man carrying a child, close to the McCann’s apartment. The man has never been traced. Despite an appeal by the Portuguese police, and the release by the McCann’s of an artists impression. Gerry McCann is in no doubt that the man abducted his daughter.
(Gerry McCann) I’m certain he took Madeleine. I'm absolutely certain because Jane gave the description of the pyjamas that the child was wearing, which were an exact match for what Madeleine had on and Jane had no idea what Madeleine had on. So she gave that information without knowing it. And that is what makes me convinced.
(Presenter) Behind the scenes the McCann’s contracted Spanish private detectives, who would follow up sightings of young blonde girls as far a field as Bosnia and Mexico. The investigators have so far been paid almost Ł300,000, but appear no closer to finding Madeleine. (music playing) On the police side, one of the lead detectives was taken off the case in October, for reportedly criticising British officers. Then, in February this year, there was a candid admission from the man in overall charge of policing in Portugal. In a radio interview Alipio Ribeiro was asked about the decision to declare Kate and Gerry McCann arguidos. Pressed by the interviewer he admitted there had been “a certain hastiness” on the part of the police. So, was the Director of Police in Lisbon distancing himself from the actions of detectives? Mr Ribeiro’s comments may have reflected the lack of obvious progress on the forensic side of the investigation. The samples from the McCann’s apartment, and hire car, had been sent for analysis at Britain’s Forensic Science Service, or FSS.
(Archive clip Paul Hackett) Hello, good morning. My name is Paul Hackett, I work for the Forensic Science Service, and today we are here in the Birmingham forensic laboratory.
(Presenter) Paul Hackett is a senior scientist at the FSS. He can't discuss the detail of this case but he did make a general point that is undoubtedly relevant to the Madeleine McCann enquiry. Mr Hackett stressed the paramount need to preserve a crime scene, from the moment a crime is committed until the moment forensic samples are gathered.
(Paul Hackett) The less people that are attending the scene and getting involved in the scene, the lower the risks are of introducing DNA that you don’t want to be there. Minimising the amount of interaction with the scene, by people that are not there to recover the evidence, is a golden rule and is in the training manual of all police offers.
(Presenter) In this case, the golden rule was broken. After Madeleine’s disappearance there was a gap of well over two months before the arrival of the British dogs, during which time the McCann’s apartment was opened up, and rented out to other holiday makers. In late November Portuguese scientists visited the FSS and just days later police sources were telling Portuguese newspapers that the forensic results were inconclusive. (On location report – traffic noises in background) Well here in the capital Lisbon I'm just staring up at an austere looking office block that houses the policia judiciaria, the investigating police in this case. The building sits behind imposing wrought iron gates, which remain firmly closed to journalists. We must have made a dozen approaches to the police for an interview. Each one was turned down. The attorney generals office, and the ministry of justice are also refusing to talk publicly about the case. But off the record, I have managed to meet a senior figure here in Portugal with direct involvement in the Madeleine McCann inquiry. (back in studio) That person, who had not spoken to a British journalist before, admitted that unless Madeleine’s body were found the chances of any of the arguidos ending up being charged with murder, or manslaughter was slim. The source insisted that all lines of inquiry remained open. Including the original theory that Madeleine was abducted.
(Archive news clip) “Portuguese detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann are arriving in Britain today to attend new police interviews with friends of her parents” (fades out)
(Presenter) Since my conversation with that senior figure in Portugal, all seven of the McCann’s friends have been re-interviewed by British police officers, with detectives from the Policia Judiciaria, or ‘PJ’, present. The seven witnesses include Rachael Oldfield, who has given her first ever interview to this programme.
(Rachael Oldfield) I was there on the night. I spent time with Gerry and Kate during the week, you know, before the 3rd of May and afterwards. You know, their emotions and their reactions was just agonising. It was just no way they’re involved in anything to do with Madeleine’s disappearance.
You know, if you take the common sense approach as well and just look at, you know, timings of how things happened and the fact that they’re both medics, there are four other medics in the group, they would know what to do to resuscitate a child… or anyone else for that matter. Anyone with an ounce of common sense really would be able to see that they couldn’t have done it. I was there and I know that they didn’t do it.
(Presenter) You know that there are a lot of people, possibly including the police, certainly including a lot of bloggers who have suspicions about your group who’ve written all sorts of things about a potential conspiracy theory. What do you say to them?
(Rachael Oldfield) Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s outrageous. We’ve all felt very angry about it. We were asked to comply with the Portuguese judicial secrecy laws, which we were made to understand that we could face two years in prison for speaking out. So, you know, as a group we’ve not said anything from day one. And there have been all these rumours flying around and leaks from sources close to the PJ which, you know, we haven’t been able to refute.
We would have loved to have spoken out really and just sort of put the record straight but, you know, we were asked not to. It’s their legal system, their legal process. We believed that the investigation would be the best way of finding Madeleine if we cooperated with the police and, sort of, complied by their rules and regulations. So, you know, we stuck to our side of the… story.
(Presenter) And on their side?
(Rachael Oldfield) Well, double standards. They leaked information and… these rumours that have flown around for the past year.
(Presenter) So, if the leaks stop, you think the McCanns could let bygones be bygones and move forward?
(Rachael Oldfield) Yes, absolutely. Errm, they want to find Madeleine. Presumably the Portuguese want to as well.
(Presenter) You’ve all been re-interviewed. I know you can’t talk in detail about what you were asked but as far as you are aware nobody in the group changed any detail in any significant way?
(Rachael Oldfield) No. We clearly remember the events of that night. You know, you wouldn’t forget them. And nobody changed any sort of story because, you know, there isn’t a story to change.
(Presenter) Gerry and Kate remain suspects. What, in your opinion, needs to happen now for the investigation to move forward?
(Rachael Oldfield) It would enable the investigation to move forward, and certainly Gerry and Kate to work more closely with the PJ, if the arguido status was lifted. Currently they don’t really have any communication with the PJ, which, when they’re investigating the disappearance of their daughter is quite astounding.
(Presenter) Have they, to your knowledge, heard from Paulo Rebelo. He’s the man heading the enquiry?
(Rachael Oldfield) Not as far as I know, no.
(Presenter) And what do you think of that?
(Rachael Oldfield) It is strange.
(Presenter) Rachael Oldfield is one of the three members of the group who say they spoke to the suspect, Robert Murat, on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance, something he strongly denies. Detectives recently returned computers and clothing, previously seized from Mr Murat. His sister Samantha says it is time he was officially cleared.
(Samantha) No matter what he does in his life now, everyone is going to associate him as a suspect in the Madeleine McCann case. It’s been a year now, and our family have gone through hell, not to mention what Robert has had to go through on his own. I think that the media should make an apology for what they’ve put him through. I think the police should lift the arguidos status and make a statement saying they have never had any evidence to suggest that Robert had anything to do with this, and say that to the public.
(Presenter) But it’s not just friends and relatives of the three suspects who want their status to be reconsidered. A senior voice within the Portuguese judicial system has told me the same thing. The President of the Portuguese Order or Lawyers, Antonio Marinho e Pinto believes the police are using the judicial secrecy laws to conceal their lack of progress.
(Antonio Marinho speaking with English translation) Right now we’ve got three arguidos, including the missing girls parents, and we need to know why. Judicial secrecy is there to protect the effectiveness of the investigation, but it shouldn’t be protecting the negligence of incompetence of the investigators. Here there are strong reasons to fear that judicial secrecy is being used to conceal the fact that the police have gone down a blind alley and have no way out.
(Presenter) The frustration with judicial secrecy is shared by Gerry McCann. When we spoke earlier this week he could barely disguise his annoyance.
(Gerry McCann) I think it’s safe to say that we’re getting very little information. We haven't had any communication about what has gone on in terms of what’s been done in the investigation.
(Presenter) And are you convinced that the police are still trying to find your daughter?
(Gerry McCann) I don’t know, because we don’t have that information. Obviously we would like to know, we’d like to know why the files are still secret almost a year on with a change in the penal code. We would like to know what has been done to find Madeleine. We’d like to know who has been eliminated from the enquiry and on what grounds, and what leads are still being followed.
(Presenter) As we understand it, the Portuguese authorities believe that the files will currently remain closed until the middle of May, I mean how frustrating is it for you not to know what information they have?
(Gerry McCann) It’s incredibly frustrating. We’re the parents of a girl who’s missing and I don’t know who is benefiting from the files remaining secret. Certainly not Madeleine. We’ve always said that we want to leave no stone unturned, and to do that, we need to know which stones have already been overturned.
(Presenter) In this programme we’ve chartered the breakdown in trust between yourselves and the police, which obviously terminated in September, but there have been very strong words on both sides since then, often played out through the media. Assuming your arguido status is lifted, can you imagine that trust being restored?
(Gerry McCann) We want to work with the Portuguese authorities, err, we have co-operated with them since day one and we have been completely open and transparent. We’ve told them every single bit of information that we have had at our disposal and answered all their questions, so of course we can see a scenario by which we continue to work with them.
(Presenter) The McCann’s, and their friends, have been given until the end of the week to decide whether they’ll return to Portugal to take part in a police reconstruction, literally walking through their movements on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance. I asked Gerry McCann whether going back was a risk, given that prosecutors could still pursue a charge of child neglect.
(Gerry McCann) Well we talked about this early on. We were given legal advice that what we did was well within the bounds of reasonable parenting and of course, at the time, we thought what we did was perfectly reasonable.
However hindsight has proven that we made a mistake. Clearly we would never leave the children again. We are paying more for that than anyone could possibly ever imagine, but, you know, clearly I think such a charge one has to ask why are people talking about that now when we’re almost a year down the line and Madeleine hasn’t been found? They have no more information now than was available to them on the 4th of May, so why are we talking about such a charge now?
(music playing)
(Presenter) So the McCann’s continue to campaign and to travel, but for now Portugal remains off limits. The crime of ‘abandoning’ children carries a jail term of up to 5 years, and the couple simply won’t risk another confrontation with the police. There is no suggestion that prosecutors are planning to file charges. Portugal’s justice minister has said publicly that the investigation is nearing its conclusion. For all three suspects the delay has been deeply troubling. None the less, almost a year after Madeleine McCann’s disappearance, her parents say they still have hope.
(Gerry McCann) I think that she is probably alive. One thing’s for certain, I’ve seen nothing to suggest that she’s dead, and I mean nothing. Absolutely zero. And I’m sure if there was any evidence, then we would have heard about it a long time ago.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 05:32:19 PM
Why are the moderators allowing this libellous guff (pre-dating release of the official files) to stand?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 05:40:41 PM
Why are the moderators allowing this libellous guff (pre-dating release of the official files) to stand?
If a documentary by the BBC was libellous, someone would have complained about it. And why is it "guff"? Its no different to the many long summary articles and other documentaries around by various media organisations, none of whom have been sued or had complaints made aganst them for those articles/documentaries. Why dont you complain to Ofcom, see how far you get? Otherwise do make a list of all the libel, so we can all be a bit nore enlightened.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 10:11:51 PM
I've re-read it more carefully. It is more balanced than I thought on my first impression ....
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on July 06, 2015, 10:31:57 PM
Indeed, as "balanced" as you can get sometimes.
8((()*/
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 12, 2015, 01:38:06 PM
Whilst in no way connected to the McCann case this article is interesting a) because it is about press freedoms and techniques used to get a story and b) because of the advice received by the journalist from his lawyer:
The reporter was subjected to a 90-minute interview, in which he was asked a total of 107 separate questions, some examples of which are below. The journalist, who denies the allegations, was advised by his lawyer to answer ‘No comment’ to all the questions, but the lawyer made clear her dissatisfaction, saying it was ‘unfortunate to say the least’ that the reporter had been called in for questioning after he and the newspaper had given their full co-operation to police.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3157741/Six-months-ago-MoS-exposed-children-s-consultant-taking-Class-drugs-just-going-duty-chilling-implications-news-investigation-police-interviewed-reporter-caution-VOYEURISM.html#ixzz3fgE63dFi Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 14, 2015, 06:54:19 PM
Gerry said the Carpenters left shortly after their friends arrived.
My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment.
Why are you so sure of that? The recordings were unintelligible and there was precisely no credible evidence against them. The parents were very obviously stitched up. A very familiar story...
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on July 17, 2015, 12:49:42 AM
Very interesting but I'm surprised you posted it as it certainly how easily parents of missing children can become victims of police misconduct.
I too am amazed that pathfinder posted this. Some of the similarities in the treatment of the Aisenbergs and the McCanns are uncanny both in trial by public opinion and hostile police and prosecution services.
Heartbreaking that Sabrina has now been missing for more than fifteen years.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 01:41:45 AM
It's a mystery disappearance of a small child, with the possibility of an intruder, so it is very relevant IMO.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on July 17, 2015, 01:55:24 AM
It's a mystery disappearance of a small child, with the possibility of an intruder, so it is very relevant IMO.
I agree it is entirely relevant to Madeleine McCann's case.
Particularly in the way Sabrina's parents were alleged to have been involved in her disappearance and the conduct of the police who seemed entirely focused, not on finding a living child, but in prosecuting her parents.
It also showed exactly why it was important for the parents to get the best legal advice possible.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Benice on July 17, 2015, 10:12:36 AM
I agree it is entirely relevant to Madeleine McCann's case.
Particularly in the way Sabrina's parents were alleged to have been involved in her disappearance and the conduct of the police who seemed entirely focused, not on finding a living child, but in prosecuting her parents.
It also showed exactly why it was important for the parents to get the best legal advice possible.
I agree. I dread to think what would have happened to them if they had not taken their lawyers advice not to answer any more questions.
I'm still gobsmacked at the claim by the police that the tapes proved their guilt! IIRC Amaral made a similar claim - i.e. that his documentary would prove the McCanns guilt. IMO all it proved was how far he was prepared to go to manipulate the evidence to make it fit in with his claims.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on July 17, 2015, 10:19:38 AM
I agree. I dread to think what would have happened to them if they had not taken their lawyers advice not to answer any more questions.
I'm still gobsmacked at the claim by the police that the tapes proved their guilt! IIRC Amaral made a similar claim - i.e. that his documentary would prove the McCanns guilt. IMO all it proved was how far he was prepared to go to manipulate the evidence to make it fit in with his claims.
'I agree. I dread to think what would have happened to them if they had not taken their lawyers advice not to answer any more questions. '
Pull the other one. &%&Ł(+ &%&Ł(+ &%&Ł(+
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Benice on July 17, 2015, 10:39:48 AM
'I agree. I dread to think what would have happened to them if they had not taken their lawyers advice not to answer any more questions. '
Pull the other one. &%&Ł(+ &%&Ł(+ &%&Ł(+
Are you claiming to know better than those US parents' lawyer - as well the McCanns lawyer now? Why do you think he advised them take the 5th Amendment?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on July 17, 2015, 10:44:43 AM
Are you claiming to know better than those US parents' lawyer - as well the McCanns lawyer now? Why do you think he advised them take the 5th Amendment?
Why do people take the 5th ?
Oh yes, NOT TO IMPLICATE THEMSELVES.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Benice on July 17, 2015, 10:50:31 AM
Or when it becomes clear to their lawyer that they are about to be fitted up? Why would any sane person want to help the police to frame them?
Her we go again.
It all comes down sooner or later that someone was trying to frame the mccanns.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 17, 2015, 07:16:10 PM
"But the difference is my daughter is still alive." Steve Aisenberg to Marc Klaas. Classy!
Marc Klaas, whose 12-year-old daughter Polly was abducted from her bedroom and murdered in 1993. Like Steve and Marlene, he had been treated like a suspect, interrogated, polygraphed. He hated it, but he said he answered every last question the police asked, hoping something he said would help bring Polly home. "It's not fair, but you have to be strong," he said.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 17, 2015, 08:03:58 PM
"But the difference is my daughter is still alive." Steve Aisenberg to Marc Klaas. Classy!
Marc Klaas, whose 12-year-old daughter Polly was abducted from her bedroom and murdered in 1993. Like Steve and Marlene, he had been treated like a suspect, interrogated, polygraphed. He hated it, but he said he answered every last question the police asked, hoping something he said would help bring Polly home. "It's not fair, but you have to be strong," he said.
What point relevant to the McCann case are you trying to make?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on July 17, 2015, 10:08:41 PM
One could ask what has the ex PJ inspector Cristovaos (who was not involved in the case) arrest for burglery got to do with Madeleine Mccanns disppearance but someone saw fit to make it a thread on here
Re the Aisenbergs
The listening apparatus must have been rubbish as most of the "talk" was unintelligble and this was the FBI??? I personally "did" hear "the baby is dead and buried" .I could be wrong. All the rest was garbled.
There are similarities between this and the Mccann case and probably several others where a missing baby or young child was never found or said perpetrators
- no evidence or witnesses - child has never turned up - both "left a door open" - both criticised police very soon/stopped cooperating/ had an "attitude" - The mothers lie detector test was failed/inconclusive - both got high profile lawyers
It's a plain fact of life that people will look at whatever facts or non facts are out there and make their own judgements, wrongly or rightly.
It is also true cops sometimes target the wrong people but ths is rare
Kerry Needham has never come across as "dodgy" along with several others. There must be a reason for this. She seems very genuine to me and has never said or done anything to make me doubt her after all these years.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 18, 2015, 08:35:25 AM
Kerry Needham was nowhere near her child when he disappeared. If she'd been in the house at the time she'd probably be suspect number 1 in the eyes of some.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 18, 2015, 08:37:50 AM
Transcript - McCanns
7:56 It's certainly been the worst 4 months of our lives. Every day is very hard without Madeleine and we all miss her so much. It certainly feels like there's a big void in our life without her. Kate
8:12 I'm sure most people can imagine how bad it was that first night when we discovered her gone and how terrifying it was. It is as most parents would say - a parent's worst nightmare. Gerry
8:44 I think the key thing that we've tried to do is to channel all of our emotions and energy into influencing the search for Madeleine and that what drives us forward. That we do still have some influence on it. And as parents the last thing we want to do is look back in a few months time and say I wish we had done this. Gerry
9:17 We've also got two other children and it's very important that we're there for them as well. Kate
Our families have given us tremendous support, absolutely amazing. Gerry
10:45 She's pretty extrovert. She's very sociable and very engaging. She's bright and funny. She does have a sense of danger though even though she's very young. She does have a sense of danger.
11:03 We're clearly biased but Madeleine is close to the perfect child as you could get for someone who was so young, less that 4, when she was taken. She really is amazing. She's quite a leader I would say amongst her peers and she's engaging and it really affects people who've met her. Gerry
She has a lot of personality for someone as young as she is. Kate
Nothing like this has ever happened like going with anyone she didn't know for example. Gerry
13:26 She went sailing, she went to the beach, mini tennis. Did role play, singing, that's sort of thing and she really loved it. She was having a ball this holiday. Gerry
13:48 She's go so much energy Madeleine and that was one thing even our friends commented on while we were there. Wow she keeps going. Kate
14:10 Portugal has a tremendous reputation for being child friendly to start with. Luz itself, everyone was saying nothing ever happens here. It was incredibly quiet. Gerry
We felt very very safe. Nothing struck us as unusual. Kate
We were off-season, the last week in April beginning of May and it was very quiet. We felt that is was virtually an idyllic holiday really. Gerry
18:54 I knew straight away she had been taken. Well put it this way I knew she hadn't walked out of the apartment. Kate
I have to say when I got there and Kate told me and when I looked at the scene as well I had absolutely no doubt. But our immediate reaction was to double and triple check. We did do that both in the apartment and in the vicinity. And then we said call the police and one of our friends alerted both the resort manager and the police. Gerry
19:33 And that was within 5 minutes or so it was very quick. Kate
It was all done very quickly. And to the credit of the tour operators Mark Warner. They had a large number of their staff back in organising a missing child alert. All the staff came in off-duty and started searching the complex and the beach etc. different areas. And many other holiday makers and people who live in the village joined that search. Gerry
20:56 We can't talk in any detail about it. It was pretty much a normal day but what we can't do is talk about detail of our actual movements on that day in case it prejudices the investigation. Gerry
21:14 Did something happen between the beginnning of the day and the time she disappeared? Something different?
21:15 No no. Gerry
24:45 What we do know is that we don't know where she is. We don't know who's taken her and we don't know why. But given the very extensive searching both in the first week or two and again four weeks ago there's still no evidence of serious harm to Madeleine that we know of and that gives us hope that she could still be alive. Gerry
25:24 It's a horrible situation. It's the not knowing. Not knowing what's happened. How she is? What's she going though? How long it's going on for? If we ever get a conclusion. Kate
Because you tend to imagine the worst and we found that particularly hard early on. The not knowing means it's incredibly difficult to move on. You don't know if that person's alive or dead or being hurt or being looked after which still could be the case with Madeleine. Obviously we pray that it could be something like that. Gerry
29:55 We want to do everything in our power to influence the search for Madeleine. Gerry
32:22 We don't know whether she would have been found by this time in any other country given the same circumstances. We're not going to give up on Madeleine and we're going to keep looking for her. Gerry
39:52 You just gotta keep hoping really that they're going to find her. That's the bottom line. We're not detectives. Like everybody else we can speculate but speculation doesn't help. Kate
The hardest thing I think is and this would be the case whether we were in Britain, the United States or any other country. It's difficult because Madeleine hasn't be found and you don't know if she would have been found by this time in any other country given the same circumstances. And also additionally we've learned a lot about child abduction both in Europe and also from North America where they have the best collection of statistics. And there are lots of individual cases of children being recovered after long abductions. Gerry
40:51 That's the key message that there is hope and other families have proven that there is hope until you know for certain and that's what we are very much and all our family believe. We' not going to give up on Madeleine and we're going to keep looking for her. Gerry
42:16 Do you rely on the expertise of Portuguese police?
We have to rely on them. They are the investigating police force. They're professionals, they are detectives and use to dealing with serious crime. Clearly in this case they have had assistance from the UK police who have provided some specialist support and of course the investigation we've stated all along is the most likely chance of us finding her. Gerry
45:29 I think that's what it is. It's a theory. Gerry
There's always been a possibility that she might not be alive even from the very first minute we realised she wasn't there. We spent for first 3 or 4 days we couldn't think of anything else. That's all we could think of. That's she'd been taken and killed. And obviously has time goes on and it's nearly 4 months now and we still don't have any evidence to say that she's dead. There's still that hope even if it's a small hope there's still that chance she's alive. The worst thing you can do is write off a child and give up if there's still a chance she's alive. Kate
52:36 I can't do this any more. I just want to press a button and we're all gone and it's all finished and we're all together. Kate
54:48 We never asked to be put in this situation and we certainly would never have wanted to be in the media spotlight early on. And the vast majority of the time the media have actually treated is very well and with a degree of respect and shown some respect for our feelings as well.
I mean although obviously we don't plough through the papers we've got an idea of what's been said. There has been quite a lot of upsetting stuff recently and there's been a lot of fabrication as well I think that's fair to say which has been very upsetting. Kate
55:29 Some of the things that have been written are incredibly hurtful to us considering what we're actually going through any way to imply.......No one knows whether Madeleine is dead but to have people stating it and that we are involved in it is incredibly hurtful and I also feel it damages the investigation and it smears the campaign. And it causes a great deal of anxiety to our family as well. Gerry
56:37 Kate you always carry that child's toy. It belonged to Madeleine. Why are you always with that toy?
It's Madeleine's favourite cuddly toy and you know she took it to bed with her every night or if she was tired or not feeling very well she always had it as a comfort. And I suppose it's special to Madeleine so it's special to me really and I just feel that bit closer to her. Kate
She's got a rival for it now though - Madeleine's younger sister wants to adopt it. There's a bit of a fight between the ladies in the house. Gerry
58:14 It's not easy you know. It really isn't easy and some days are better than others. Kate
Other days do you want to give all this up?
Give up and stop looking for Madeleine. Gerry
There's days when you think I can't do this any more. I just want to press a button and we're all gone and it's all finished and we're all together and gone whatever! But you can't you know. Kate
59:15 It's very hard to think about leaving Portugal, Praia da Luz mainly because this is the last time we saw Madeleine was in PDL so it's incredible hard to move away from there. But logically I know that Madeleine could be any where, unfortunately Madeleine could be any where so whether I'm here or or in the UK or elsewhere in Europe I don't know how far I'm from her. Whether I'm one mile from her or a thousand miles from her it's still incredibly hard. Kate
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on July 18, 2015, 08:52:09 AM
I understand why you are unable to answer the question...the 5th amendment is there to protect the innocent ..
the fact that it can be abused is a diversion...the welfare state is there to protect the poor.....just because some abuse it doesn't detract from it's purpose
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on July 18, 2015, 10:11:23 AM
I understand why you are unable to answer the question...the 5th amendment is there to protect the innocent ..
the fact that it can be abused is a diversion...the welfare state is there to protect the poor.....just because some abuse it doesn't detract from it's purpose
You really are very slow today.
i'm perfectly aware of the purpose of the 5th.
Try to keep up, it would help enormously.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on July 18, 2015, 10:13:59 AM
so you understand the right to silence was introduced to protect the innocent and is therefore used by the innocent for protection of their liberty.......good
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on July 18, 2015, 10:17:12 AM
so you understand the right to silence was introduced to protect the innocent and is therefore used by the innocent for protection of their liberty.......good
and it can be abused.
OH YES.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on July 18, 2015, 10:19:49 AM
so can the powers of the police...as amaral has shown
and what of some members of the police in the UK who according to the current investigation have apparently covered up the activities of high level paedophiles.
What of them dave ?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on July 18, 2015, 11:17:42 AM
and what of some members of the police in the UK who according to the current investigation have apparently covered up the activities of high level paedophiles.
"...a British woman staying at the Ocean Club saw a 'suspicious' couple loitering around the complex. On May 2, the day before Madeleine vanished, the woman saw the couple sitting on a hill overlooking tennis courts used by Kate and Gerry. Just by the courts is a grassy area where the couple, Madeleine and twins Sean and Amelie, played regularly in the afternoons. The woman, whose toddler daughter became friendly with Madeleine at the children’s club, said the suspicious woman was talking and pointing while the man with her looked 'nervous' ..."
What hill? Have a walk around there is no hill there.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on July 18, 2015, 03:41:12 PM
"...a British woman staying at the Ocean Club saw a 'suspicious' couple loitering around the complex. On May 2, the day before Madeleine vanished, the woman saw the couple sitting on a hill overlooking tennis courts used by Kate and Gerry. Just by the courts is a grassy area where the couple, Madeleine and twins Sean and Amelie, played regularly in the afternoons. The woman, whose toddler daughter became friendly with Madeleine at the children’s club, said the suspicious woman was talking and pointing while the man with her looked 'nervous' ..."
What hill? Have a walk around there is no hill there.
it is probably a Portuguese source and a mistake in translation...some want us to believe mistakes don't happen and the files are 100% correct
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on July 18, 2015, 04:10:19 PM
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/317111/Madeleine-McCann-The-lost-clues Mrs Duarte said ... "There were some 70,000 calls on the documents provided to the officers but I do not believe they have ever been properly analysed."
Is Mrs D criticising the work of the top British police phone experts who were in PDL in May 2007?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jun/01/ukcrime.madeleinemccann "1 June 2007 ... Forensic science experts from the Metropolitan police have been helping Portuguese police investigating ... evidence from mobile phone records"
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Eleanor on July 18, 2015, 04:16:45 PM
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/317111/Madeleine-McCann-The-lost-clues Mrs Duarte said ... "There were some 70,000 calls on the documents provided to the officers but I do not believe they have ever been properly analysed."
Is Mrs D criticising the work of the top British police phone experts who were in PDL in May 2007?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jun/01/ukcrime.madeleinemccann "1 June 2007 ... Forensic science experts from the Metropolitan police have been helping Portuguese police investigating ... evidence from mobile phone records"
"helping Portuguese Police investigate." Hardly in charge, were they.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on July 18, 2015, 04:18:46 PM
it is probably a Portuguese source and a mistake in translation...some want us to believe mistakes don't happen and the files are 100% correct
IMO its probably something the Express journos found by tracing and talking with a lobster parent in the UK? Maybe it should be "sitting on a wall"? There is no "hill" that fits.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on July 18, 2015, 04:33:38 PM
"helping Portuguese Police investigate." Hardly in charge, were they.
Several phone experts were sent by the Met to PDL in May 2007. Were they sent make to tea? Or to analyse phone comms? http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jun/01/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 18, 2015, 05:20:41 PM
Several phone experts were sent by the Met to PDL in May 2007. Were they sent make to tea? Or to analyse phone comms? http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jun/01/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
From the article:
Quote
Experts said the investigator, who is not a police officer, would be mapping how different mobile phone masts served various parts of the Praia da Luz resort and nearby areas.
"You would need to go to Praia da Luz first to see which networks provide a service there," said David Bristowe, the mobile phone expert whose evidence helped solve the Soham murders in 2002
This could provide Portuguese police with a valuable way of checking the alibis of any suspects who used mobile telephones that night, he said.
So it was to provide information to enable the Portuguese police to check alibis of suspects, in other words they were there to pull together the data, then over to the police to do the analysis and investigating, or have I misunderstood?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on July 18, 2015, 08:27:33 PM
So it was to provide information to enable the Portuguese police to check alibis of suspects, in other words they were there to pull together the data, then over to the police to do the analysis and investigating, or have I misunderstood?
Brit analysts were significantly involved in the phone work in May 2007. Duarte is criticising (in part) experts from the Metropolitan Police. Amaral's PJ and his Brit experts did analyse the phone data Here is an example
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on July 18, 2015, 08:41:31 PM
BTW that data I posted is by Amaral's PJ/Brit phone analysts. It pulls together Luz mast data from all 3 networks for the Smith sighting period You can see for example one of the calls Redwood re-examined (58s call at 21:51). Also BTW there are comms between Brit employees going out for the evening (some of whom had portuguese SIMs). All this was analysed already by Amaral's team.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on July 18, 2015, 08:50:02 PM
Brit analysts were significantly involved in the phone work in May 2007. Duarte is criticising (in part) experts from the Metropolitan Police. Amaral's PJ and his Brit experts did analyse the phone data Here is an example
The investigating authority would determine the priority of which data was to be analysed. As can be seen from the files that was concentrated on the first arguido and his associates and those who were later to be constituted arguidos and their associates.
I believe the present SY and PJ investigators may have carried out a more intensive study and may have looked at the information as a whole to see patterns which seem to have been of interest.
The first investigation concentrated on a narrow field ... unfortunately when that had to be discarded because it was unproductive ... they did not change tack to look at the information available to them as a whole.
Therefore the criticism of the Drs McCann lawyer is a valid one. The PJ had the information provided by British technicians ... they just didn't use it to its full potential.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Eleanor on July 18, 2015, 10:14:52 PM
The investigating authority would determine the priority of which data was to be analysed. As can be seen from the files that was concentrated on the first arguido and his associates and those who were later to be constituted arguidos and their associates.
I believe the present SY and PJ investigators may have carried out a more intensive study and may have looked at the information as a whole to see patterns which seem to have been of interest.
The first investigation concentrated on a narrow field ... unfortunately when that had to be discarded because it was unproductive ... they did not change tack to look at the information available to them as a whole.
Therefore the criticism of the Drs McCann lawyer is a valid one. The PJ had the information provided by British technicians ... they just didn't use it to its full potential.
Merci beaucoup.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on July 18, 2015, 11:10:16 PM
Could we all understand that Drs McCann are not suspects and show them some respect...thanks in advance
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on July 18, 2015, 11:50:41 PM
Could we all understand that Drs McCann are not suspects and show them some respect...thanks in advance
snip................
' Best case scenario - they are not involved - still leaves the repeated neglect of their children (not interested in any protestations that it wasn't neglect because they were not charged; you leave three infant children unattended while you go out for tapas, it's neglect), their refusal to co-operate fully with the investigating officers, their use of funds donated by the public to sue their critics, and their repeated whining, moaning and complaining about how hard done by they are, including their total lack of respect for people who attempted to help them.
To demand they are shown respect is like demanding the same for Lance Armstrong for winning all those races, even if he was ripped to the nipples on performance-enhancing drugs at the time. '
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lace on July 19, 2015, 10:48:50 AM
' Best case scenario - they are not involved - still leaves the repeated neglect of their children (not interested in any protestations that it wasn't neglect because they were not charged; you leave three infant children unattended while you go out for tapas, it's neglect), their refusal to co-operate fully with the investigating officers, their use of funds donated by the public to sue their critics, and their repeated whining, moaning and complaining about how hard done by they are, including their total lack of respect for people who attempted to help them.
To demand they are shown respect is like demanding the same for Lance Armstrong for winning all those races, even if he was ripped to the nipples on performance-enhancing drugs at the time. '
Yes, we've been over the point that they left the children, they have admitted themselves that they shouldn't have, as Gerry said you can't put the clock back.
They did co-operate fully with the investigating officers until they accused them of having staged an abduction and hidden Madeleine's body. Then, they were advised not to co-operate. Amaral used false evidence to frighten them.
Hello? The fund is there to help the parents, they were fully entitled to use it against Amaral when he was claiming they had something to do with Madeleine's disappearance and that she was dead, that would have prevented anyone coming forward with evidence, they wouldn't bother if they thought she was dead would they?
When have they moaned and whined about how hard done by they are? Give an example. All they have complained about as far as I can see is people giving out the wrong messages.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on July 19, 2015, 10:56:05 AM
Yes, we've been over the point that they left the children, they have admitted themselves that they shouldn't have, as Gerry said you can't put the clock back.
They did co-operate fully with the investigating officers until they accused them of having staged an abduction and hidden Madeleine's body. Then, they were advised not to co-operate. Amaral used false evidence to frighten them.
Hello? The fund is there to help the parents, they were fully entitled to use it against Amaral when he was claiming they had something to do with Madeleine's disappearance and that she was dead, that would have prevented anyone coming forward with evidence, they wouldn't bother if they thought she was dead would they?
When have they moaned and whined about how hard done by they are? Give an example. All they have complained about as far as I can see is people giving out the wrong messages.
They did not fully cooperate.
People donating their hard earned money would never be expecting to pay for the mccanns legal expenses or for household sundries. They donated for a SEARCH.
As to moaning and whinging, where do you start.
Once I among a laptop, I will provide examples.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lace on July 19, 2015, 11:07:36 AM
People donating their hard earned money would never be expecting to pay for the mccanns legal expenses or for household sundries. They donated for a SEARCH.
As to moaning and whinging, where do you start.
Once I among a laptop, I will provide examples.
The fund states it is there to help the parents too. Link to where it says they used the fund for legal expenses please.
I await your examples Stephen.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on July 19, 2015, 11:10:06 AM
People donating their hard earned money would never be expecting to pay for the mccanns legal expenses or for household sundries. They donated for a SEARCH.
As to moaning and whinging, where do you start.
Once I among a laptop, I will provide examples.
don't you realise it's over...there are more people believe that the world is ruled by 12 foot lizards than believe the lies told about the McCanns...
It's all over...the McCanns are as good as cleared
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on July 19, 2015, 11:14:27 AM
The fund states it is there to help the parents too. Link to where it says they used the fund for legal expenses please.
I await your examples Stephen.
I think that objective was changed around 2011? At Companies House the fund no longer states it helps the family. Witness travel for attending the 'Libel' Trial was paid, don't know about the lawyer's fees etc as the accounts don't provide such details.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on July 19, 2015, 12:00:14 PM
Interesting snippet from a telegraph article for those who want to pretend there are NO inaccuracies in the translations...looks like the Portuguese police think otherwise
Portuguese detectives investigating the case of the missing four-year-old have admitted that they are reassessing the original witness statements to look for inaccuracies in their translation.
"In the early days of the investigation there were dozens of statements being given at what was a very confusing time," a police source said.
"Obviously the police acted in good faith in their selection of translators but given all that has been said about the various contradictions in the versions of events, detectives are now re-examining the possibility that there may have been some problems," he said.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lyall on July 19, 2015, 12:50:32 PM
Which article is that from, davel?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on July 19, 2015, 12:57:46 PM
so you understand the right to silence was introduced to protect the innocent and is therefore used by the innocent for protection of their liberty.......good
The right to silence is not there to protect the innocent or guilty, it is there to give a suspect the right not to implicate themselves by their own statements.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lyall on July 19, 2015, 01:04:39 PM
That's the end of the so called inconsistencies in statements....
Not at all. the article was written in November 2007. The statements would have been examined and corrected before the files were released, so no errors in the released files. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on July 19, 2015, 03:42:44 PM
Not at all. the article was written in November 2007. The statements would have been examined and corrected before the files were released, so no errors in the released files. 8((()*/
the files you bare reading are those signed by Drs McCann in May 2007......the original ones...no corrections...do try and keep up
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on July 19, 2015, 04:00:02 PM
Not at all. the article was written in November 2007. The statements would have been examined and corrected before the files were released, so no errors in the released files. 8((()*/
you have stated that the statements would have been corrected...so where are these corrected statements
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on July 19, 2015, 04:02:03 PM
the files you bare reading are those signed by Drs McCann in May 2007......the original ones...no corrections...do try and keep up
Yes on 4th May both KM and GM signed the typewritten portuguese summaries of their respective individual interviews.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 20, 2015, 02:09:03 AM
June 2007 De Telegraaf Letter Search News Report at Barragem da Bravura lake/reservoir
He described the letter as being headed: “Madeleine Beth McCann”, with a description below of how she had been dumped in the Barragem da Bravura reservoir, nine miles from the holiday resort.
De Telegraaf Letter June 2007 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id78.html
Oct 2007 A search is also expected of the dense woodland and isolated dwellings around the reservoir - known locally as Barragem da Bravura, literally the Reservoir of the Wilderness - which leading detective Paulo Rebelo believes was not combed carefully enough in the days following the four-year-old's disappearance. According to Portuguese newspaper the Correio Da Manha, the "meticulous" Rebelo has ordered his reinforced team to pay "special attention" to the area around the jagged reservoir.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id202.html
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 06:10:12 AM
you are burying your head in the sand and avoiding the truth....The Portuguese police have stated their are questions re their accuracy
According to the Telegraph who quoted 'a police source'. They also quoted an 'unnamed lawyer' in the same article suggesting that one of the T9 was going to change his statement.
"The intention of my client is to bring to light the truth of this sad story, without any concern for who might be implicated," he allegedly said. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569143/Madeleine-McCann-Possible-translation-errors.html
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 20, 2015, 08:00:57 AM
According to the Telegraph who quoted 'a police source'. They also quoted an 'unnamed lawyer' in the same article suggesting that one of the T9 was going to change his statement.
"The intention of my client is to bring to light the truth of this sad story, without any concern for who might be implicated," he allegedly said. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569143/Madeleine-McCann-Possible-translation-errors.html
The Telegraph quoted a story in El Mundo, a story that was completely invented as we now know, and which was confirmed as such by Clarence Mitchell to the Telegraph reporter at the time.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2015, 08:11:32 AM
Spanish doctors have refused to treat UK patients because they have been sued. Even though the treatment was explained in English the consent form signed was in Spanish...the consent was ruled invalid...
It's a principle throughout the legal system
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2015, 08:21:57 AM
Spanish doctors have refused to treat UK patients because they have been sued. Even though the treatment was explained in English the consent form signed was in Spanish...the consent was ruled invalid...
It's a principle throughout the legal system
That doesn't make their statements invalid.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2015, 08:29:09 AM
Yes on 4th May both KM and GM signed the typewritten portuguese summaries of their respective individual interviews.
Can I ask you Pegasus. Is it clear that those were the summarised versions of the 'verbatim' statements which the police would use to type up their summaries? IIRC dates are not always shown on statements. (from memory)
IMO deciding what to put in and leave out of summaries (of interviews which took hours to complete) - would be a huge and obviously very important task and not something which could be done quickly. The verbatim statements would be extremely long and so I'm surprised if summaries were typed up and presented to the McCanns for signature on the same day as their interviews.
However, if that is what happened, then IMO it should not be forgotten that after having no sleep and long hours spent at the Police station, just hours after their daughter had disappeared, then they would be extremely tired and obviously full of anxiety.
There is a vast difference between having a statement read out to you by an interpreter- at their pace - and actually sitting down and reading a statement in English at your own pace - when any discrepancies would jump out of the page at you.
If they did sign statements which had mistakes in them on 4th May - then in the circumstances - I don't find that remotely surprising.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on July 20, 2015, 08:30:05 AM
Can I ask you Pegasus. Is it clear that those were the summarised versions of the 'verbatim' statements which the police would use to type up their summaries? IIRC dates are not always shown on statements. (from memory)
IMO deciding what to put in and leave out of summaries (of interviews which took hours to complete) - would be a huge and obviously very important task and not something which could be done quickly. The verbatim statements would be extremely long and so I'm surprised if summaries were typed up and presented to the McCanns for signature on the same day as their interviews.
However, if that is what happened, then IMO it should not be forgotten that after having no sleep and long hours spent at the Police station, just hours after their daughter had disappeared, then they would be extremely tired and obviously full of anxiety.
There is a vast difference between having a statement read out to you by an interpreter- at their pace - and actually sitting down and reading a statement in English at your own pace - when any discrepancies would jump out of the page at you.
If they did sign statements which had mistakes in them on 4th May - then in the circumstances - I don't find that remotely surprising.
there does not seem to be any record of the verbatim statements so none of the statements can be checked...
they are not admissible evidence anyway as the McCanns were not arguidos when they were made
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2015, 08:42:16 AM
They signed something they did not understand and those who asked them to sign it knew that...legally that makes the signature invalid
The statements are read back to them in English before they sign.
"At the end of the interview the statement prepared by the officer would be printed out in Portuguese, verbally translated, on the spot, into English, and then signed by the interviewee."
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2015, 10:24:02 AM
The Telegraph quoted a story in El Mundo, a story that was completely invented as we now know, and which was confirmed as such by Clarence Mitchell to the Telegraph reporter at the time.
There is no reason to suppose that the other story was true either.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lace on July 20, 2015, 10:24:36 AM
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2015, 01:52:59 PM
Australian newspapers had a bad opinion of the Portuguese police too, then. I wonder what they'll all say if the latest Portuguese investigation finds and successfully prosecutes those who disappeared Madeleine? There'll be egg on a few faces then;
Two streets away, behind the gleaming whitewashed apartment in Praia da Luz, where the McCanns were on a week-long holiday with Madeleine and their two-year-old twins, Amelie and Sean, two silver vans sit parked. Inside, locked in separate steel cages, four Alsatian sniffer dogs growl and bark in the midday heat. There is no sign of their green-uniformed handlers, officers from Portugal's Algarve Search and Rescue Dog team. They are down on the seafront, shopping for T-shirts.
Were it not for their uniforms they, too, might be on vacation. Instead, they are part of a 180-strong police search for the McCanns' daughter. But their shambolic, haphazard modus operandi symbolises the inept and bumbling investigation that represents the Portuguese authorities' efforts to find the toddler.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 20, 2015, 01:54:34 PM
McCanns: Madeleine McCann - Trade Mark No. 2456061?, 12 April 2011
McCanns: Madeleine McCann - Trade Mark No. 2456061? Day Trading (German)
By A DAY TRADER Published: 2011/04/12
Perhaps one of the most bizarre aspects of the case of missing Madeleine McCann is that, within days of her disappearance, her parents submitted a trade mark application on her behalf. Trade marks are typically used to protect commercial property rights, so that, in this bizarre case, it seems that not only was Madeleine perceived as a missing daughter, but also as a future commercial concern, the rights of which were required, to protect the commercial interests of Team McCann. In a way, it's easy to see why Madeleine's image attracted substantial sums for the interested parties. Personally the thought of a 'trade mark' for a missing child sounds pretty sick to say the least, and brings a certain disgust at the whole question of her loss. But what is your opinion? Is it customary to mark a missing child this way? Was the McCanns' child an exception, whose name needed to be trade marked in the circumstances? Source: ipo.gov.uk
Note: It should be pointed out that the trade mark relates specifically to the activities of the 'Madeleine's Fund: Leaving No Stone Unturned' company and not Madeleine McCann herself.
Case details for Trade Mark 2456061 Intellectual Property Office http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tm/t-find/t-find-number?detailsrequested=C&trademark=2456061
'Madeleine's Fund: Leaving No Stone Unturned' trade mark, 18 May 2007
Can I ask you Pegasus. Is it clear that those were the summarised versions of the 'verbatim' statements which the police would use to type up their summaries? IIRC dates are not always shown on statements. (from memory)
IMO deciding what to put in and leave out of summaries (of interviews which took hours to complete) - would be a huge and obviously very important task and not something which could be done quickly. The verbatim statements would be extremely long and so I'm surprised if summaries were typed up and presented to the McCanns for signature on the same day as their interviews.
However, if that is what happened, then IMO it should not be forgotten that after having no sleep and long hours spent at the Police station, just hours after their daughter had disappeared, then they would be extremely tired and obviously full of anxiety.
There is a vast difference between having a statement read out to you by an interpreter- at their pace - and actually sitting down and reading a statement in English at your own pace - when any discrepancies would jump out of the page at you.
If they did sign statements which had mistakes in them on 4th May - then in the circumstances - I don't find that remotely surprising.
You can see scans of the original documents of the 4th May 2007 police interviews of GM and KM. They are typewitten, in portuguese, and IIRC each is signed by the respective witness. It is clear by reading them that they are summaries (not a verbatim record of every word said). The interview of KM was conducted unusually: a third party was allowed to be in the interview room sitting behind the witness but making physical contact with the witness.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 06, 2015, 09:55:55 PM
by Robert Murat's friend. Team McCann fight back? Woof Woof!
Alive when taken Sunday Mirror (paper edition)
Exclusive Madeleine: 100 Days of Hell
• Kidnapper put cuddle cat on ledge then picked her up • The blood spots in apartment are not hers say cops
Lori Campbell in Praia da Luz 12 August 2007
Missing Madeleine McCann's favourite pink Cuddle Cat toy was taken from her arms as she slept and placed beyond her reach by her kidnapper. That is why police are certain Madeleine was snatched while she was asleep - and was NOT killed or injured in the holiday apartment.
When her mum Kate, 38, tucked Madeleine into bed, the four-year-old was cuddling the toy - but it was later found placed on a ledge that Madeleine could not have reached.
There is also further "concrete evidence" that Madeleine was still ALIVE when she left the holiday apartment. Her kidnapper had a window of just five minutes to strike - from when dad Gerry last checked on the children until family friend Jane Tanner saw a man carrying away a child she is sure was Madeleine wrapped in a blanket. The new revelations rubbish reports in Portuguese newspapers yesterday that she was murdered or died in an accident inside the villa.
However, local police Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa admitted for the first time that Madeleine could be dead. He said: "In the past few days there have been some developments and some clues that have been found that could point to the possible death of the little child. But until this moment we are waiting for lab results of the evidence collected and all lines of inquiry are open."
Now, the Sunday Mirror can give a true picture of what happened when Kate found her daughter missing. We can reveal:
• Police have specific evidence from the apartment that she was still alive
• Madeleine was kidnapped as the toy she had fallen asleep with was left on a ledge placed too high for a child to reach
• There was a window of less than five minutes for a kidnapper to pounce - not enough time to kill her and clean up
• Police do not believe blood found in the apartment was Madeleine's as it was not consistent with signs of a struggle
• The patio doors were unlocked but the intruder used the window to escape with Madeleine as the shutters were forced up.
We can also reveal that devastated Kate was reduced to tears several times by the aggressive questioning of Portuguese police this week. (Who is the source? Team McCann? PF)And yesterday the parents were hit by further cruel claims in Portuguese papers linking them to Madeleine's disappearance on May 3.
But our dramatic information confirms Madeleine was most likely to have been abducted by a stranger who had watched the family's routine for up to four days. And it shows Portuguese police from the beginning have had firm evidence Madeleine was still alive when she was taken from the ground-floor apartment.
The McCanns were told in a secret meeting with police within days of Madeleine going missing what this evidence is.
They have been unable to discuss it publicly in case it jeopardises the investigation - and have even been banned from telling close friends or family.
Kate has refused to say where she found the Cuddle Cat toy when she returned to the villa in Praia da Luz at about 10pm to find her daughter's bed empty.
But she has hinted the bedroom was left in such a way that she knew almost instantly Madeleine had been kidnapped.
Our police source said: "When Kate tucked Madeleine up in bed earlier in the evening, she had the toy tightly in her arms as she did every night. So Kate was terrified when she spotted it had been left in a place too high for her to reach. Kate also noticed the window was wide open and the shutters jammed up. It was because of these things that she had no doubt Madeleine had been kidnapped and she ran out to scream for help."
The Sunday Mirror has been told there was a window of opportunity of less than five minutes from the last time Gerry checked on their child to the reported sighting by family friend Jane of her being carried away by a man.
Our source said: "Although there has been much speculation about a 'lost hour' in which Madeleine could have been taken, it was actually less than five minutes. The kidnapping must have been meticulously planned. Police found no fingerprints or DNA on the Cuddle Cat or in the room, indicating the intruder wore gloves.
"There was so little time that whoever took Madeleine must have been watching the family closely for several days so they knew exactly when to strike.
"Kate and Gerry left Madeleine and the twins Sean and Amelie alone every evening of their week-long holiday to eat dinner 50 yards away and followed the same routine of checking on them. The kidnapper would have known this."
The patio doors at the back of the apartment were left unlocked so Kate and Gerry could check on the children easily. But police are unsure if the intruder used them to slip in or if the shutters to the window were forced open from outside.
Sniffer dogs flown over to Portugal last week by British police were taken into the apartment and found specks of blood missed in an initial search.
The results of DNA tests are expected this week but detectives are convinced it does not belong to Madeleine because if it was fresh, it would have been spotted when they first scoured the apartment. (under a tile don't think so - PF)
But that has not stopped the Portuguese media leading a hurtful smear campaign against Kate and Gerry which reached a new low with the suggestion Madeleine was killed inside the apartment and that Kate was somehow involved.
The spiteful rumours forced Kate and Gerry to insist they would not be bullied out of Portugal. But yesterday there were more cruel accusations as they marked 100 days since Madeleine disappeared.
Portuguese newspaper Sol alleged the toddler died in the apartment before her parents went to dinner. It says British sniffer dogs picked up traces of her corpse and signs she was moved. An "unnamed specialist" told the newspaper: "For the dogs to detect a body, it would have to stay in place where it died for a minimum of two hours."
The report also alleged the McCanns' silver Renault Scenic hire car may have been used to get rid of Madeleine's body. A McCann spokesman yesterday dismissed the allegations as "complete nonsense".
"There was so little time that whoever took Madeleine must have been watching the family closely for several days so they knew exactly when to strike.
@)(++(*
That has got to be one of the worst articles I have ever read.
The report in the Mirror - Alive When Taken followed by a Sunday Mirror editorial further down - perhaps the most embarrassing editorial ever written - has to be seen to be believed. Its purpose was to make the claim that police evidence had demonstrated that the child could not have died in the apartment.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on August 06, 2015, 10:41:30 PM
The report in the Mirror - Alive When Taken followed by a Sunday Mirror editorial further down - perhaps the most embarrassing editorial ever written - has to be seen to be believed. Its purpose was to make the claim that police evidence had demonstrated that the child could not have died in the apartment.
I am sure this motley crew of journos never did an iota of research into anything...they just typed what they were told to...what monkeys they proved to be
SY have now said Madeleine may have been dead before being removed from the holiday flat
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ferryman on August 17, 2015, 11:09:22 AM
Scour the video of Eddie with cuddle-cat and you will sour in vain for sight of him picking up the toy and tossing it in the air.
But we know it happened because PJ Inspector Dias records that it happened (confirming the memories of those of us who remember the original before Levy meddled with the footage).
So if Levy meddled with film, how can we sure that the rogatory interviews, also brought to us by Levy, haven't similarly been meddled with?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 03:04:26 PM
"A four-year-old British boy has drowned at a holiday villa on Spain's Costa del Sol, it has been confirmed.
One local newspaper, Diario Sur, reported that the boy's parents were having dinner with friends while the child played with older children at the back of the property"
"A four-year-old British boy has drowned at a holiday villa on Spain's Costa del Sol, it has been confirmed.
One local newspaper, Diario Sur, reported that the boy's parents were having dinner with friends while the child played with older children at the back of the property"
We had a very nearly similar experience with one of our sons and our jacuzzi in Spain. You just can't watch them all the time. Thankfully our eldest son fished him out none the worse for it but it could have ended so badly it doesn't bear thinking about!
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 03:33:52 PM
"A four-year-old British boy has drowned at a holiday villa on Spain's Costa del Sol, it has been confirmed.
One local newspaper, Diario Sur, reported that the boy's parents were having dinner with friends while the child played with older children at the back of the property"
"A four-year-old British boy has drowned at a holiday villa on Spain's Costa del Sol, it has been confirmed.
One local newspaper, Diario Sur, reported that the boy's parents were having dinner with friends while the child played with older children at the back of the property"
What a tragic story. I note the parents did not cover this up, presumably because they acted as any normal parents would in such appalling circumstances. Now, will you be starting a campaign to have them prosecuted for neglect?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 05:48:34 PM
What a tragic story. I note the parents did not cover this up, presumably because they acted as any normal parents would in such appalling circumstances. Now, will you be starting a campaign to have them prosecuted for neglect?
Do you see these passing the blame to other people for their failings ?
The parents took responsibility for what happened here and yes they have my sympathy.
Likewise they didn't make up stories and back themselves with a PR machine.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ferryman on August 17, 2015, 06:18:38 PM
Scour the video of Eddie with cuddle-cat and you will sour in vain for sight of him picking up the toy and tossing it in the air.
But we know it happened because PJ Inspector Dias records that it happened (confirming the memories of those of us who remember the original before Levy meddled with the footage).
So if Levy meddled with film, how can we sure that the rogatory interviews, also brought to us by Levy, haven't similarly been meddled with?
I will get back to you on that as I believe the video available at the moment is not the samd as the original version put out there in 2008 which did show Eddie tossing the toy.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on August 17, 2015, 09:42:36 PM
Scour the video of Eddie with cuddle-cat and you will sour in vain for sight of him picking up the toy and tossing it in the air.
But we know it happened because PJ Inspector Dias records that it happened (confirming the memories of those of us who remember the original before Levy meddled with the footage).
So if Levy meddled with film, how can we sure that the rogatory interviews, also brought to us by Levy, haven't similarly been meddled with?
Ok I have checked, as per my previous post, the current video (link from Pegasus just above) differs from the original video put out (see Eddie and Keela extended videos on youtube) but seemingly only in sequence. The original one had the time sequence correct, first 5a, the other flats, then villa and cars. In any case, in both, you can see Eddie removing the toy from its place behind that chair whilst making a "gruff noise for wont of a better word"and throwing it out onto the floor. It may have been described as "tossing it in the air" by Ins Dias whilst describing just that. I don't see how you can go from that to an allegation that the rogatory interviews have been doctored. If you suspect Levy sat there for hours on end trawling through that, to add in nefarious elements, feel free to detail in what regard and with examples. As I said in my original post, they are identical to the ones secured by a different poster who had a connection with LP and who "was" (take note) a Mccann supporter.
&%+((Ł
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on August 18, 2015, 07:58:53 AM
Ok I have checked, as per my previous post, the current video (link from Pegasus just above) differs from the original video put out (see Eddie and Keela extended videos on youtube) but seemingly only in sequence. The original one had the time sequence correct, first 5a, the other flats, then villa and cars. In any case, in both, you can see Eddie removing the toy from its place behind that chair whilst making a "gruff noise for wont of a better word"and throwing it out onto the floor. It may have been described as "tossing it in the air" by Ins Dias whilst describing just that. I don't see how you can go from that to an allegation that the rogatory interviews have been doctored. If you suspect Levy sat there for hours on end trawling through that, to add in nefarious elements, feel free to detail in what regard and with examples. As I said in my original post, they are identical to the ones secured by a different poster who had a connection with LP and who "was" (take note) a Mccann supporter.
&%+((Ł
The first I saw of the dog videos was the short clip (the car one) in the Sun, then videos started appearing on Levy's blog - the 5A one first. This argument about different versions floating around has been going on for years. At the time, I went back to check dates of when I first saw them and the dates of the video uploads on Levy's channel (before they were taken down by Vimeo or whatever the service was): they were the same. The short sequence of CC being knocked off and then suddenly ending up in the middle of the villa lounge is the same. There IS a cut in the edited footage (as CC is suddenly in a different spot), but that is the version that was originally uploaded.
The extended versions are clearly not the full footage, but (IMO) would have been edited by the PJ to be able to play the key moments to play to Kate / Gerry and presumably the lawyer. At the time, they may have hoped that they'd be able to play it in court.
I have no recollection of Paulo being involved in the videos. I DO have what is now a vague recollection that he'd said he'd obtained the rogs by writing off for them (on one of the 3A threads). My only doubt now (as it's such a long time ago) is whether he was explaining how he'd got hold of the DVD files, but I still think he was talking about the rogs.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Eleanor on August 18, 2015, 08:12:01 AM
I seem to remember that Laffin Assassin got hold of copies of the Files and Rogatory Interviews very early on.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on August 18, 2015, 08:37:26 AM
I seem to remember that Laffin Assassin got hold of copies of the Files and Rogatory Interviews very early on.
Everybody and their brother seems to have got hold of a copy of the DVD...
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on August 18, 2015, 08:50:27 AM
The rogs started to emerge after the DVD.
Another point of my recollection is that Paulo was challenged on 3A about how he got the rogs as they weren't on the DVD and were part of the UK files and he'd replied that he was entitled to request them as a journalist and that the rogs were were carried out on behalf of the PJ and therefore should be considered as part of the accessible files.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on August 18, 2015, 09:21:27 AM
Another point of my recollection is that Paulo was challenged on 3A about how he got the rogs as they weren't on the DVD and were part of the UK files and he'd replied that he was entitled to request them as a journalist and that the rogs were were carried out on behalf of the PJ and therefore should be considered as part of the accessible files.
And what a wonderful source of information they have proved to be.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on August 18, 2015, 09:31:47 AM
Probably not since at that time the investigation appeared to have lost interest in Madeleine in preference to focusing all their resources on her parents and/or their friends.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on August 18, 2015, 10:24:06 AM
Probably not since at that time the investigation appeared to have lost interest in Madeleine in preference to focusing all their resources on her parents and/or their friends.
Personally, I found them interesting for a number of reasons.
They were verbatim for one thing (including the questions). Not only did that eliminate the potential for confusion in the PJ tripartite summary statements, it made them come across as the human beings that they are (to me at least).
The first one I read (from memory) was JT's. Up until then, I couldn't work out why the media (pro-Amaral as it turned out) kept trying to portray her as a liar. That rog in particular was quite an eyeopener for me. I hadn't realised the difficulties in providing an e-fit / artist's sketch, for example, or the Murat saga.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on August 18, 2015, 09:15:38 PM
The first I saw of the dog videos was the short clip (the car one) in the Sun, then videos started appearing on Levy's blog - the 5A one first. This argument about different versions floating around has been going on for years. At the time, I went back to check dates of when I first saw them and the dates of the video uploads on Levy's channel (before they were taken down by Vimeo or whatever the service was): they were the same. The short sequence of CC being knocked off and then suddenly ending up in the middle of the villa lounge is the same. There IS a cut in the edited footage (as CC is suddenly in a different spot), but that is the version that was originally uploaded.
The extended versions are clearly not the full footage, but (IMO) would have been edited by the PJ to be able to play the key moments to play to Kate / Gerry and presumably the lawyer. At the time, they may have hoped that they'd be able to play it in court.
I have no recollection of Paulo being involved in the videos. I DO have what is now a vague recollection that he'd said he'd obtained the rogs by writing off for them (on one of the 3A threads). My only doubt now (as it's such a long time ago) is whether he was explaining how he'd got hold of the DVD files, but I still think he was talking about the rogs.
Who mentioned any Paulo? The videos have the same footage (as I already said) but the original Levy one was in time order, the one linked to frequently now starts at the villa. I doubt the PJ took the trouble to sit and edit a video before playing it all back to the Mccanns. They will have "stopped and played" at any relevant parts.
There remains no evidence that the rogatories were "tampered with". IMO it is just another ploy to discredit what IS in the files. And it is not convincing in any way shape or form.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 25, 2015, 08:05:59 PM
Probably not since at that time the investigation appeared to have lost interest in Madeleine in preference to focusing all their resources on her parents and/or their friends.
Evidence? Got any?
Because investigating a missing child would and should involve asking parents and those who claimed to have seen her alive before 10 pm and they would be asked some serious questions. Are you suggesting they just stopped looking ? Well, that is the McCann line.. help us we are innocent they are not looking for Maddie, hang on neither are we...joggin and bloggin
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2015, 09:27:19 AM
Over the last eight years, the McCanns have made a big play of saying ''How could we have known our child would be abducted?'' --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
' The risk of abduction is not the primary reason why young children should not be left home alone. In fact, in terms of how often it happens, it's low down on the list. Having an accident is far more likely. Most accidents to children happen in the home. The risk increases when they are away from their own home and on holiday as they are less familiar with the dangers present in that environment. And the risk increases again if they are left unattended. '
Gerry once said ''if she had an accident in the flat - how would that be our fault?''
' It would be your fault because you weren't there. '
yet still no one has come up with an accident that would have caused instant death making abduction far more likely
quite simply...abductions happen...children fallinig off sofa and dying instantly does not
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on September 03, 2015, 09:38:39 AM
weve been through all this before.....subdural haematoma
data..there are no reports from instant deaths from falling off a sofa
If you could actually find information about circumstances surrounding deaths then the data may tell a different story. The data currently available to the public is at too high a level to be able to make such a bald statement.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lace on September 03, 2015, 09:47:23 AM
Madeleine didn't fall from the balcony did she?
Gerry made that comment in reference to Amaral's climbing on the sofa accident.
Children can have an accident when the parents are not there, eg if they are asleep in bed, down the garden, sitting watching tv downstairs when the child is upstairs.
All this means nothing, the McCann's could not have known an abductor would take Madeleine from her bed, there was no 'intent' so it is pointless dragging up every article found in newspapers telling the story of what has happened to other children.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on September 03, 2015, 10:01:57 AM
Gerry made that comment in reference to Amaral's climbing on the sofa accident.
Children can have an accident when the parents are not there, eg if they are asleep in bed, down the garden, sitting watching tv downstairs when the child is upstairs.
All this means nothing, the McCann's could not have known an abductor would take Madeleine from her bed, there was no 'intent' so it is pointless dragging up every article found in newspapers telling the story of what has happened to other children.
What abductor ???
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2015, 10:29:47 AM
If you could actually find information about circumstances surrounding deaths then the data may tell a different story. The data currently available to the public is at too high a level to be able to make such a bald statement.
there are plenty of bold statements on here....it is a bold statement to say maddie could have died in an accident with no data to show what sort of accident...the nspcc website gives the most usual causes of accidental death
if we look at what we know via newspaper reports of accidents...no accidental fall inside a house has ever produced near instant death... yet there are reports of abduction...making abduction more likely
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on September 03, 2015, 10:34:34 AM
Gerry made that comment in reference to Amaral's climbing on the sofa accident.
Children can have an accident when the parents are not there, eg if they are asleep in bed, down the garden, sitting watching tv downstairs when the child is upstairs.
All this means nothing, the McCann's could not have known an abductor would take Madeleine from her bed, there was no 'intent' so it is pointless dragging up every article found in newspapers telling the story of what has happened to other children.
How do you know Madeleine didn't fall from the balcony? If your child fell and hurt itself when you left it alone in a holiday apartment would you say 'It wasn't my fault'? Would you take no responsibility at all? Leaving children alone is asking for trouble. Parents who leave their children alone and go out probably don't intend the child to come to harm, but they still get into trouble for it in the UK. That's because it's irresponsible to do it, and parents are expected to realise that children left alone can come to harm. Otherwise the authorities wouldn't prosecute parents who do it. Mentioning what happened to other children is just as relevant as the countless articles mentioning how unreliable cadaver dogs are.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on September 03, 2015, 10:57:36 AM
there are plenty of bold statements on here....it is a bold statement to say maddie could have died in an accident with no data to show what sort of accident...the nspcc website gives the most usual causes of accidental death
if we look at what we know via newspaper reports of accidents...no accidental fall inside a house has ever produced near instant death... yet there are reports of abduction...making abduction more likely
So you have no proof such a death hasn't happened ?
Merely because abductions happen, doesn't mean it's more likely in this case.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: slartibartfast on September 03, 2015, 10:57:46 AM
there are plenty of bold statements on here....it is a bold statement to say maddie could have died in an accident with no data to show what sort of accident...the nspcc website gives the most usual causes of accidental death
if we look at what we know via newspaper reports of accidents...no accidental fall inside a house has ever produced near instant death... yet there are reports of abduction...making abduction more likely
How many newspaper reports can you produce to back up your bald statement?
Quote
Bald: Not having any extra detail or explanation; plain or blunt: the bald statement in the preceding paragraph requires amplification/quote]
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2015, 11:13:01 AM
How do you know Madeleine didn't fall from the balcony? If your child fell and hurt itself when you left it alone in a holiday apartment would you say 'It wasn't my fault'? Would you take no responsibility at all? Leaving children alone is asking for trouble. Parents who leave their children alone and go out probably don't intend the child to come to harm, but they still get into trouble for it in the UK. That's because it's irresponsible to do it, and parents are expected to realise that children left alone can come to harm. Otherwise the authorities wouldn't prosecute parents who do it. Mentioning what happened to other children is just as relevant as the countless articles mentioning how unreliable cadaver dogs are.
Lets get something straight from the start GUnit, I wouldn't leave my children alone full stop, I think the McCann's were very foolish leaving their children alone.
What I am saying is, there is no point raking up incidents that happened to other children as to an example of what may have happened to Madeleine as that paragraph in the investigation is closed. The parents have said they shouldn't have left them and the out come of the investigation of them leaving the children stated that there was 'no intent'. The argument giving that a child could have an accident when the parents are not there, is no argument as the child could have an accident when the parents are there.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on September 03, 2015, 01:32:14 PM
Lets get something straight from the start GUnit, I wouldn't leave my children alone full stop, I think the McCann's were very foolish leaving their children alone.
What I am saying is, there is no point raking up incidents that happened to other children as to an example of what may have happened to Madeleine as that paragraph in the investigation is closed. The parents have said they shouldn't have left them and the out come of the investigation of them leaving the children stated that there was 'no intent'. The argument giving that a child could have an accident when the parents are not there, is no argument as the child could have an accident when the parents are there.
Why wouldn't you leave your children alone full stop? Is it because of the McCann case or for another reason?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lace on September 03, 2015, 02:04:18 PM
Kate McCann allegedly left a door open so hers could get out. She seemed more worried about locking them in. Well, that's what she told her friends. Later she said she wasn't worried at all, she never even thought about it. Strange, most mothers worry and assess dangerous situations automatically. Hence the never-ending cries of 'Be careful' ' Get down' 'Don't touch that'.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on September 03, 2015, 05:22:47 PM
Or of course, it could have been The Invisible Man, detectable by vapour residues.(that's for dave by the way)
It could have been any one of the people ignored by the initial investigation ... or it could be related to any one of the phone calls made in Praia da Luz in the run up to and immediately after Madeleine disappeared and also overlooked.
Concentration on and suspicion of all things McCann seemed to be the motivating factor without the net ever being cast a little wider.
The phone data published in the files does not appear to take in the wider picture and concentrates on a very limited part of the whole. Heri has tried to no avail to access the five TMN, Vodafone and Optimus files, which were not included in the DVD released in July 2008 ... and wonders why if the McCann data was published in its minutiae all the available information wasn't treated accordingly. http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on November 02, 2015, 11:55:45 AM
On reading this, the obviously Portuguese name of the stalker caught my attention. As well as the lengths he was prepared to go to to attract Ms Coyne's attention. Initially who could blame him for that because she is an extraordinarily attractive young woman.
But what might have been considered an innocent infatuation developed into something more sinister resulting in Ms Coyne being put in fear of her life and fear of her daughter being kidnapped.
I don't know if Silva gave a thought to Madeleine McCann's case when issuing threats of kidnap ... but I found it interesting that he chose to do so. Bearing in mind Ms Coyne knew nothing of this man ... but he knew everything about her and her daughter.
Scotland’s most wanted stalker put a Ł5000 price on young mum's head and threatened to cut her into pieces 06:00, 2 NOV 2015 UPDATED 06:45, 2 NOV 2015 BY DAVID LOVE
A YOUNG mum suffered a horrifying three-year ordeal at the hands of the sick predator who also threatened to snatch her baby daughter. (http://i3.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article6749239.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/pizapcom14464179460781.jpg) Luis de Barra Silva stalked Jade Coyne and threatened her with violence.
SCOTLAND’S most wanted stalker will be kicked out of the country for terrorising a young mum he spotted in Pizza Hut.
And yesterday, Luis de Barra Silva’s victim spoke of her three-year ordeal at the hands of the sick predator who used his cyber-skills to put her through hell.
Jade Coyne, 23, told how Silva approached her online after he saw her chatting with pals in a restaurant. But when she rejected his advances, his infatuation took a sinister turn and he threatened to “cut her into pieces”.
Silva, 36, posted an internet message offering Ł5000 to anyone who would kill Jade and cut off her head.
He also threatened to snatch her baby daughter and take her to his native Portugal.
Jade was left living in terror that “a stranger in the shadows” would kill her and kidnap her daughter.
She had never even met Silva – the first time she clapped eyes on him was when he appeared at Inverness Sheriff Court charged with stalking her.
But even after he was released on bail, he continued to text her and message her friends and family – each time more threatening and menacing.
Silva became a fugitive when he fled to Portugal and was only brought to justice after a two-year legal battle to extradite him back to Scotland.
At Inverness Sheriff Court on Thursday, he was jailed for three years for stalking Jade. He is now awaiting deportation to serve the sentence in his homeland.
Sheriff David Sutherland also imposed a three-year non-harassment order against Silva.
Jade said yesterday: “I have never been so relieved in my life that it is finally over.
“I had never met the man. He was a stranger in the shadows to me.
“I was pregnant at the time with my daughter Lexi and I had no idea that he had seen me and become so obsessed.
“It all started so innocently – but since I didn’t know who he was, I didn’t want to know.
“But he became more frustrated and angry and then began demonstrating more and more bizarre and weird behaviour towards me and my daughter.
“I was absolutely terrified because it was someone I didn’t know or had ever seen that was a danger to me and my daughter.
“One message seemed to threaten to cut me to pieces. Another suggested that he would snatch my daughter and take her to another country.
“That made it all the more disturbing. It reminded me of Madeleine McCann and it was so worrying that I left Inverness for a while and I wasn’t coming back until I had alarms installed.
“I couldn’t live here looking over my shoulder all the time, wondering who was behind me and if he was a threat. He had gone on the run and it was so frightening having no idea when he may pounce.
“Now he has been jailed and I can try and live a normal life again – but he will be free in a couple of years.
“I just hope he is never allowed in the country again. He is dangerous.”
The court was told Silva first saw Jade in 2011 when she was chatting with friends in a Pizza Hut in an Inverness shopping centre. He instantly became infatuated and relentlessly pursued her from afar – initially in a benign way but then in a more sinister fashion.
After finding out her name, he used his IT skills to access her social media profile.
Silva was working in the Inverness area at the time and staying in a B&B. He didn’t know Jade, then just 19, but fiscal depute Ross Carvel said: “Following this encounter, Silva seems to have become infatuated with her.
“Over the following months and years he made significant, if bizarre, attempts to entice Jade Coyne into engaging into a relationship with him.
“Police gave him corrective advice and he was banned from the centre in August 2012.”
The court was told Silva managed to find out Jade’s mum’s name and gave her a letter for the teenager in April 2013, saying he had been trying to find her for 16 months.
The next day, Jade contacted the police and the day after that, they traced and detained Silva.
The court heard he was released on bail but continued to communicate with Jade, with one message threatening to “kick her ass” as he was “losing patience with her attitude”.
He also created several Facebook profiles in a bid to contact her, scaring her so much she fled Inverness.
Mr Carvel added: “She received another message which she found most disturbing with two knives on it, saying, ‘The next time I will see her I will take care of it… piece by piece…but no need to worry I like doing puzzles’.
“Another stated, ‘Ł5000 for Jade Coyne’s head!’ A later post made reference to ‘some guy’ being interested that would ‘do the job and get evidence like pictures of it done’.
“Throughout this campaign, Jade Coyne never made any contact in any manner, responded verbally or wrote to Silva.” http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scotlands-most-wanted-stalker-put-6749156
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on November 02, 2015, 10:51:22 PM
If anyone can find any significant relevance to the disappearance of Madeleine Mccann here, pls do share..I mean, what exactly is there to "discuss"?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pegasus on November 03, 2015, 02:09:23 AM
Seconded. Is there any evidence this person was in PDL or even in Portugal on May 3rd?
And the rest, just another example of every tom dick and harry in the world who has ever committed a crime being linked to madeleine mccann if they can be......but in reality is a million miles away from even being imagined (though by some as a possible perpetrator for reasons only known by them!!!) no wonder its taken sy and people like brietta and co 13m Ł and 4 plus years to get nowhere, chasing shadows... In very young child crimes the perpetrators are normally nearer to home be that parents relatives or friends goodnght
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2015, 02:27:09 PM
And the rest, just another example of every tom dick and harry in the world who has ever committed a crime being linked to madeleine mccann if they can be......but in reality is a million miles away from even being imagined (though by some as a possible perpetrator for reasons only known by them!!!) no wonder its taken sy and people like brietta and co 13m Ł and 4 plus years to get nowhere, chasing shadows... In very young child crimes the perpetrators are normally nearer to home be that parents relatives or friends goodnght
Well it certainly reminded the victim very much of Madeleine McCann whether you unsurprisingly choose to see the correlation or not.
Why would a man you had never met and who you knew nothing about take it upon himself to find out everything about you to make your life as miserable as possible?
There has been an argument that it would not have been possible to 'target' Madeleine prior to the family visit to Luz.
This man found no difficulty in finding out everything there was to know about his target ... and rather thankfully ... chose not to keep it to himself and just do it ... she had forewarning when her daughter was threatened with kidnap.
Although internet use and social media were in their infancy in 2007, there was still plenty of opportunity for anyone who felt like it to track families with children.
I don't know what is 'normal' behaviour for a stalker like Luis de Barra Silva ... however I found the kidnap threat directed at his victim's daughter bizarre.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on November 03, 2015, 10:27:15 PM
The story is about a personal obsessed unrequited violent stalker...unless youre suggesting one of the mccanns were stalked and a threat was made to kidnap ther child, then yes, it has zero to do with the case
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2015, 11:57:48 PM
The story is about a personal obsessed unrequited violent stalker...unless youre suggesting one of the mccanns were stalked and a threat was made to kidnap ther child, then yes, it has zero to do with the case
But as far as you are concerned, nothing has relevance to Madeleine's case if it doesn't fit your rather myopic view. Try taking in the bigger picture.
It is perfectly possible Madeleine could have been targeted weeks or months before the event ... I don't know and neither do you.
Luis de Barra Silva fixated on someone who had never set eyes on him.
In the event if he had kept that to himself and carried out the threat he had made to kidnap the little girl and take her to Portugal with him ... where would the police have started looking? There was nothing to connect him with his victim. No-one knew him. As I have already said ... he knew everything about them. I think it possible that a little forward planning would be enough to replicate what happened to Madeleine and leave no obvious trace. This man certainly proved there are a few seriously disturbed people out there one of whom was content to terrify an innocent mother with the threat of kidnapping her daughter and the first thing that came to mind was Madeleine.
So if you see no connection ... she certainly did ... and for all we know perhaps he did too.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 04, 2015, 12:26:09 AM
But as far as you are concerned, nothing has relevance to Madeleine's case if it doesn't fit your rather myopic view. Try taking in the bigger picture.
It is perfectly possible Madeleine could have been targeted weeks or months before the event ... I don't know and neither do you.
Luis de Barra Silva fixated on someone who had never set eyes on him.
In the event if he had kept that to himself and carried out the threat he had made to kidnap the little girl and take her to Portugal with him ... where would the police have started looking? There was nothing to connect him with his victim. No-one knew him. As I have already said ... he knew everything about them. I think it possible that a little forward planning would be enough to replicate what happened to Madeleine and leave no obvious trace. This man certainly proved there are a few seriously disturbed people out there one of whom was content to terrify an innocent mother with the threat of kidnapping her daughter and the first thing that came to mind was Madeleine.
So if you see no connection ... she certainly did ... and for all we know perhaps he did too.
So that's what caused the crying for 75 minutes. An abductor who has been watching her for days first tried on TUE and failed. And then tried again on the most frequent checking night. That makes perfect sense NOT!
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on November 04, 2015, 12:42:59 AM
But as far as you are concerned, nothing has relevance to Madeleine's case if it doesn't fit your rather myopic view. Try taking in the bigger picture.
It is perfectly possible Madeleine could have been targeted weeks or months before the event ... I don't know and neither do you.
Luis de Barra Silva fixated on someone who had never set eyes on him.
In the event if he had kept that to himself and carried out the threat he had made to kidnap the little girl and take her to Portugal with him ... where would the police have started looking? There was nothing to connect him with his victim. No-one knew him. As I have already said ... he knew everything about them. I think it possible that a little forward planning would be enough to replicate what happened to Madeleine and leave no obvious trace. This man certainly proved there are a few seriously disturbed people out there one of whom was content to terrify an innocent mother with the threat of kidnapping her daughter and the first thing that came to mind was Madeleine.
So if you see no connection ... she certainly did ... and for all we know perhaps he did too.
You obviously have the more myopic view...as well as the non discerning wider one...quite a combination,,,this person was NOT fixated on a child...and you OBVIOUSLY did not read or answer my post, finally dont be so ridiculous, its starting to be embarrassing
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 04, 2015, 10:31:14 AM
I found this interesting:
There were 3 curtain items, a sample piece of the white curtain 286B/2007-CR/L 1 which was collected on the 3rd August following the alert by Keela:
'Finally, it was also requested by the investigating officers that we proceeded also with the delivery to FSS of Birmingham, United Kingdom, for further laboratory examination, a piece of the other white lining from the blue curtains numbered 16, that had been collected on 3 August 2007.
The paper package containing that piece of white lining was delivered to FSS of Birmingham, in the United Kingdom, under cover of delivery note 286B/2007-CR/L, a copy of which is attached.'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
And the two blue curtains 286A/2007 CRL 16 curtain 1 and 286A/2007 CRL 16 curtain 2 which were collected on the 4th August.
'On 4 August there were collected at [the above address]: - Three (3) spots from the floor, numbered as trace evidence 1 to 3; - Ten (10) spots from the wall, numbered as trace evidence 4 to 13; - Two (2) spots from the back of one blue, cloth-upholstered sofa existing in the living room, numbered as trace evidence 14 to 15; - Two blue curtains with white curtain lining from one of the windows of the living room, numbered as trace evidence 16.'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
and
'b) Samples collected in the living room of the apartment 5A, block A, Ocean Club, tourist resort, Praia da Luz, Lagos, on August 3rd, 2007, following the second examination carried out by a British specialist dog team (Delivery note no. 286B/2007-CR/L):
1. A piece of fabric from white curtain next to a window in the living room. C) Samples collected in the living room of the apartment 5A, block A, Ocean Club tourist resort, Praia Da Luz, Lagos, on August 4th , 2007, following the second examination carried out by a British specialist dog team (Delivery note no. 286A/2007-CR/L):'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
In his report Martin combines the alert to the tiles on the 31st July and the alert to the curtain on the 3rd August. He does not state that Keela alerted to the blue curtain or to the white lining. He doesn't give a date for any of the searches anywhere in PDL and would know that the PJ would only want to know what alerts occurred at each location, they already know the dates the searches took place on.
'The second alert was one where a definitive area was evident. The CSI dog was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely presence of human blood.'
Keela did not alert to the curtain on the 31st July purely because she didn't examine it closely as Martin stops the fingertip search after she has alerted to the tiles in the same area that Eddie did. The search on the 3rd August looks to have been more thorough with the curtains closed as in the photo and she has sniffed her way all along them and has then alerted to the hem of 286A/2007 CRL 16 curtain 2.
The blue curtains and one white lining and the separate piece of white lining are then sent to the FSS and Lowe finds low level incomplete DNA on the hem of the blue curtain 286A/2007 CRL 16 curtain 2.
'Low level incomplete DNA results, which in certain circumstances showed a contribution of DNA from more than one person were obtained from biological material on the following swabs: 286A/2007 CRL 14a, 14b, 15a; the swab from the hem of the curtain 286A/2007 CRL 16 curtain 2; the swabs from the tile pieces 286/2007 CRL 2 areas 1 and 2 and 3 area 1. In my opinion there is no evidence to support the view that anyone from the McCann family contributed their DNA to them results.'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
He then states:
'The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found. '
and later
'FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 21
286A/2007-CRL 16 & 16B Two blue curtains and one white curtain 286B/2007-CRL 1 One white section of a curtain
These curtains were analysed for traces of blood, semen and saliva, none of which were detected. The hem of one of the blue curtains (16) was swabbed to collect any cellular material that might exist. An incomplete, inconclusive DNA result consisting only of two unconfirmed DNA components was obtained. In my opinion the result is not adequate for comparison purposes. The sample was submitted for LCN analysis.
An incomplete, low-level DNA result, comprising only some DNA components, was obtained through LCN from the CELLULAR MATERIAL recovered from the hem of one the curtains. In my opinion, this result contained information too meagre to permit a meaningful interpretation.'
So blood was found on the blue curtain and it was not a false positive by Keela as you claim at all.
You clearly don't realise that blood is made up of two major components: plasma and CELLULAR MATERIAL.
'Blood: Plasma and Cellular Material Blood is made up of two major components: plasma and cellular material.'
and of course, from Martin himself:
'The components of blood are approximately: Red cells 40-50% Plasma 55% (of which 95% is water) White cells Platelets DNA can only be removed from white cells. This would suggest that, of the samples signalled by the dog looking for human blood, approximately 5% are available for DNA tests.'
But as far as you are concerned, nothing has relevance to Madeleine's case if it doesn't fit your rather myopic view. Try taking in the bigger picture.
It is perfectly possible Madeleine could have been targeted weeks or months before the event ... I don't know and neither do you.
Luis de Barra Silva fixated on someone who had never set eyes on him.
In the event if he had kept that to himself and carried out the threat he had made to kidnap the little girl and take her to Portugal with him ... where would the police have started looking? There was nothing to connect him with his victim. No-one knew him. As I have already said ... he knew everything about them. I think it possible that a little forward planning would be enough to replicate what happened to Madeleine and leave no obvious trace. This man certainly proved there are a few seriously disturbed people out there one of whom was content to terrify an innocent mother with the threat of kidnapping her daughter and the first thing that came to mind was Madeleine.
So if you see no connection ... she certainly did ... and for all we know perhaps he did too.
An interesting proposition. We like all that don't we? Well1 until it's given a couple of nano seconds thought then it don't look so bright.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discuss
Post by: mercury on November 04, 2015, 11:37:52 PM
How was MM targetted weeks and months before please do Explain
Thats to Brieetta
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discuss
Post by: Brietta on November 05, 2015, 12:47:42 AM
How was MM targetted weeks and months before please do Explain
Thats to Brieetta
Do try thinking about it.
Luis de Barra Silva spotted his victim in a public place and targeted her ... take it from there.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on November 05, 2015, 09:57:39 AM
The abduction fantasy?
"You will also be aware of the Madeleine McCann case. Both this and the [Ben] Needham case are categorised as a missing persons, rather than child abduction cases, as there is no evidence in either case to support whether the children were or were not abducted."
- The Foreign and Commonwealth Office responding to a Freedom of Information request in connection with missing Ben Needham
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discuss
Post by: mercury on November 05, 2015, 10:33:59 AM
Luis de Barra Silva spotted his victim in a public place and targeted her ... take it from there.
It doesn't require much thought, I just wanted you to confirm that you think MM was spotted in the UK or Ireland or wherever she was, weeks or months earlier , targetted, and was followed to Portugal, as that must be what you are suggesting, if not, then do explain.Ta.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on November 05, 2015, 10:46:58 AM
"You will also be aware of the Madeleine McCann case. Both this and the [Ben] Needham case are categorised as a missing persons, rather than child abduction cases, as there is no evidence in either case to support whether the children were or were not abducted."
- The Foreign and Commonwealth Office responding to a Freedom of Information request in connection with missing Ben Needham
do you have a link to this
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 05, 2015, 10:55:28 AM
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 05, 2015, 12:01:27 PM
Taken from possibly their last interview before they were made arguido.
“We had no illusions that we could control the media,” says Gerry. “The way that information has got out has been handled incredibly badly, without a doubt. It’s almost as though some people are thinking out loud. It’s all very well to have a potential scenario but that shouldn’t necessarily be written up as if there is evidence to support it. I think this has been handled very irresponsibly by a number of people. We don’t believe there is any evidence to support any of the deluded headlines, and the police have made that clear.” 8(0(*
Madeleine: one fact, many lies, endless grief
From The Times September 4, 2007 Penny Wark
In seeking publicity, the McCanns had the clear objective of finding their daughter. What they did not envisage was that interest would spread, as Gerry puts it, like a forest fire, and that 150 journalists would suddenly descend on Praia da Luz, excited by the prospect of a story of a pretty child with attractive parents who are also middle class and intelligent – and far away from the stereotypical image of an inadequate single mother who might carelessly mislay a child and who certainly couldn’t afford to visit this aspirational resort. Add to that the parents’ status as doctors, people who save lives, yet who leave their children, Madeleine and her two-year-old twin siblings, without adult supervision in an apartment while they eat at a tapas bar a 52-second walk away, and the chattering classes are simultaneously full of sympathy and hooked.
When you first see apartment 5A you are struck by its exposed location. On the ground floor of a five-storey block, it is on a street corner and, like most of the Ocean Club apartments, not part of the gated section that houses the tapas bar and crčche. It would be easy to observe from different viewpoints, and perhaps to notice that this family had a regular pattern of behaviour in the evening, putting their children to bed, slipping across to the tapas bar and checking on them regularly.
But these are observations made with the benefit of bitter hindsight. Before Madeleine became a household name, no one thought like that on holiday, especially in an English-speaking resort so sedate that it doesn’t even have facilities for teenagers. In late April the weather is pleasant, the beach is a five-minute walk away and you’re there to relax and have fun. “It’s a quiet, safe resort,” says Gerry when we meet in a borrowed flat. “The distance from the apartment to the restaurant was 50 yards. We dined in the open-air bit and you can actually see the veranda of the apartment. It’s difficult because if you are [at home] cutting grass in the back with the mower, and that takes me about half an hour, and the children are upstairs in a bedroom, you’d never bat an eyelid. That’s similar to how we felt. We’ve been unfortunately proved wrong, out of the blue. It’s shattered everything.”
“Everyone I know who had been to Portugal with their children said it was very family friendly, and it did feel like that,” says Kate. “If I’d had to think for one second about it, it wouldn’t have happened. I never even had to think like that, to make the decision. It felt so safe that I didn’t even have to – I mean, I don’t think we took a risk. If I put the children in the car the chances of having an accident would be greater than somebody coming in, breaking into your apartment and lifting a child out of her bed. But you never think, I shouldn’t put the children in the car.”
This is the first time that the McCanns have confirmed that the apartment was broken into. This information does not compromise Madeleine’s safety, and rules out one of the numerous red herring theories that the police have explored, that Madeleine wandered away on her own. There is no logic in withholding it from the public.
“I have no doubt in my mind that she was taken by somebody from the room,” says Kate. “We don’t know if it was one person, two, or if it was a group of people, but I know she was taken.”
“There’s still hope because we don’t know who’s taken her, we don’t know where they’ve taken her and we certainly don’t know where she is,” says Gerry. “The first time I spoke to Ernie Allen, the chief executive of the National Centre for Missing and Exploited Children in the States, he said what I wanted to hear, and they’ve got enough experience of getting children back after long periods of time still to remain hopeful, and their own experience is that the younger the child, the less likelihood of serious harm. Don’t get me wrong, we’re not blinkered. The scenario that everyone thinks about is that a paedophile took her to abuse her and if that is the situation then statistically the chances are they would kill her. But we don’t know that and that’s the difficulty we’re dealing with. There are a range of scenarios and we want every single avenue explored because they’re all pretty rare. That doesn’t mean they should be represented in front page headlines as if all of them are likely, because they’re not.”
Does the Portuguese insistence that no information can be given about the investigation have any advantages? “For us, not having any information is very difficult,” Kate replies. “For us as parents it’s beneficial having information. We know that from our own jobs – the main complaint from patients’ families is lack of communication and not being informed. It’s detrimental.”
Of course the McCanns’ bid for information from the public, unsupported by details of the abduction, had already been hamstrung by the investigation’s slow start. There was also a language barrier. They now have phone access to a police officer who speaks English, but contact is variable, they say. You sense that they are often in situations where they would like to be forthright, but are obliged to keep their thoughts to themselves. “It is frustrating,” says Kate. “The whole situation makes you angry, that’s part of the whole grief that something like this has happened to Madeleine and to us. They’re all normal emotions and sometimes you do just want to explode.”
The McCanns sit on a sofa, Kate bone-thin – although I am told that she is very fit – extremely shy and modest, Gerry composed and easier to read. At the beginning of our interview Kate holds Madeleine’s pink toy cat in one hand and clutches her husband’s with the other. Kate’s face looks so tense and agonised that you might think that she was about to be tortured, and she seems to shrink into herself.
But as the hour passes she relaxes, takes her hand out of her husband’s and even laughs at some of the absurdities of their situation, recalling a day on the beach when she was on the phone to a friend and suddenly found herself being covered in kisses by a group of Portuguese matrons. Were this couple not wrapped up in this extraordinary event they would be unremarkable, the husband an assured man who likes to be in control, the wife a family-orientated mother who enjoys her job and still has friends from when she was 4.
Both are from working-class backgrounds: Gerry is the youngest of five children of an Irish matriarch and her joiner husband who brought up their family in Dumbarton, near Glasgow; Kate the only child of a Liverpool joiner and a civil servant. They met as junior doctors in Glasgow 12 years ago, got together as they travelled in New Zealand and she trained as an anaesthetist before retraining as a GP because, as two hospital doctors, they rarely saw each other.
In the immediate aftermath of Madeleine’s disappearance the McCanns found solace in their Catholic faith and were grateful for the warmth and care that greeted them at the Nossa Senhora da Luz church, a tiny, beautiful and peaceful sanctuary that forms a focal point for the community. “I felt cosseted,” Gerry says. “We felt so fragile and vulnerable. People kept saying ‘you’ll get her back’. It was what we needed to hear because we just had the blackest and darkest thoughts in the first 24, 36 hours, as if Madeleine had died. It was almost uncontrollable grief.
“The psychologist who came out to help us [Alan Pike from the Centre for Crisis Psychology in Skipton] was very good at turning our thought processes away from speculation. OK, there’s probabilities, but you don’t know that and he was very good at challenging the negatives. He was very much, ‘You will feel better after each thing that you take control of, even simple things’. We were surrounded by the Ambassador, the consul, PR crisis management, police, and he was saying ‘The decisions are yours’.”
“All these people we were meeting had to be there, and I felt so out of control and I found it quite scary,” says Kate. “I felt as if I’d been pushed into another world. Alan was saying, ‘There are little things you can take control of’.”
“For example,” says Gerry, “if you are asked ‘Do you want a cup of tea?,’ instead of saying ‘Mmm’, make a positive decision. Decide what you want. That combination of the Church, the community and the psychology helped very quickly. We agreed to interact because we thought it would probably help the search and it would be easier than hiding. Stay in the dark and you’re an enigma. There wasn’t anything to hide and in the first few weeks we were shown a lot of respect.”
The launch of the Find Madeleine campaign brought them more respect for their organisational skills. Friends and family rallied, a strategy was worked out, the media were fed pictures and quotes, and big businesses, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, David Beckham and numerous unknown individuals responded with support and donations. This money – the fund now stands at more than Ł1 million – enabled them to appoint a campaign manager and to publicise Madeleine’s disappearance by visiting other countries. With the possible exception of their blessing by the Pope at the Vatican, which was the brainwave of a tabloid newspaper and seemed to contradict the McCanns’ status as ordinary people, they were beyond reproach as campaigners, particularly as they began to engage with agencies that have expertise in recovering missing children. The story rolled along nicely, filling more front pages than any other event since the death of Diana, Princess of Wales, though not because the McCanns were managing the media, but because there was increasing evidence that Madeleine sells papers.
Then things started to go wrong. By the end of the second week of August, when the McCanns marked the 100th day since Madeleine’s disappearance by launching a YouTube initiative to help to find missing children, the Portuguese media had suggested that the McCanns could have killed their daughter, and the British press was not shy about repeating and even revelling in the “monstrous slurs”. Coincidentally that was the week I first visited Praia da Luz: there were nine television satellite trucks, each with a noisy generator, on the road outside apartment 5A, and the Portuguese crews were threatening to move outside the McCanns’ rented villa and had to be pacified with an interview. The Ocean Club asked the McCanns to stop bringing the twins to the kids’ club because other guests had complained about the media presence, and a couple of chain-smoking security men appeared outside reception. Praia da Luz, once a sardine-fishing community, now a manufactured resort with a reputation for guaranteeing uneventful and sunny family holidays, was becoming ugly.
The solicitor of Robert Murat, the only person to have been named by police as a suspect in the Madeleine investigation, didn’t help matters when he announced that business in Praia da Luz was suffering and that people there wanted “those bloody McCanns to go home”. However strong a news line this was, it wasn’t entirely true. Some shopkeepers continued to display posters appealing for information about Madeleine, others spoke tactfully about their sympathy for the McCanns. “It’s not that we want the McCanns to go home, it’s just that we want the bad feeling to go away,” said one café owner, who declined to be named. “Last year you had to book three weeks ahead to get in here in the evening, now you don’t need to book. Praia da Luz has become the place where you lose your children. It’s terribly sad, and it’s terrible for the McCanns.”
Something else was happening, too, that wasn’t entirely edifying. At the church a steady stream of Portuguese worshippers and tourists approached the shrine to Madeleine to the left of the altar, and many were devout and respectful. Others nipped in to take a quick picture of the shrine and left without a bow of the head; after all, it’s not every year that you go on holiday and find yourself in the presence of a moment so big that it is being recorded by television cameras.
Outside Robert Murat’s home, which could not be seen from the road because of a deep and dense hedge, a Portuguese tourist checked with me that she had the right house, then stuffed herself into the hedge to get a proper look. (She was obviously not the first to do so, as sections of the hedge are now dying.) A hundred yards away sight-seers posed for photographs alongside the television crews positioned with 5A in the background.
On a seat overlooking the beach, Martin Payne, a well-meaning hairdresser from Stratford-upon-Avon, displayed an intriguing mixture of sympathy and fascination. He had just spotted Gerry in his Renault Scenic (which was more than I had at this stage; the McCanns are impossible to get near unless their campaign manager vets and approves you) and was happy to volunteer every known fact about the McCanns, and to speculate, in detail, on what might have happened to Madeleine.
“You’ve been reading too many books, Martin,” said his wife. “I feel the same way that I felt when Princes Diana was killed,” Martin said. “Such a loss to a lovely family. We want to have a conclusion to this.”
When I suggest to the McCanns that some of the interest in them borders on the prurient, they seem to be unaware of it. At church they register the crowd outside as kindly support, and don’t notice those on the fringes who are there just to spot them. In other contexts their unsought fame appals them. “We feel totally exposed, as though we have been stripped bare,” says Kate.
They tend not to pick up the more sickly nuances within the press, because they don’t read it; instead the campaign team (which consists of the full-time lobbyist the McCanns hired after the fund was set up, plus two other part-timers who ensure seven-day-a-week cover to field the innumerable media inquiries) shows them what they need to see, including translations of Portuguese coverage. And as they demonstrated last week with the announcement that they are to take legal action against the Portuguese newspaper Tal e Qual, for its allegation that they killed Madeleine with an overdose of sedatives, they will no longer tolerate lurid claims that defame them.
“We had no illusions that we could control the media,” says Gerry. “The way that information has got out has been handled incredibly badly, without a doubt. It’s almost as though some people are thinking out loud. It’s all very well to have a potential scenario but that shouldn’t necessarily be written up as if there is evidence to support it. I think this has been handled very irresponsibly by a number of people. We don’t believe there is any evidence to support any of the deluded headlines, and the police have made that clear.”
“There are times when you just want to shout out ‘That’s wrong’, because I think we’ve been done injustice in a lot of ways,” says Kate.
“There’s a blacker picture painted than what is true,” says Gerry, “whether it is how much we were drinking, which was a gross exaggeration, or how often we were checking. We know what we did and we are very responsible. It’s bad enough for us to have to deal with the fact that someone saw an opportunity – to then have elements sneering at your behaviour and making it look much worse than it was. It’s difficult because a lot of untruths, half truths and blatant lies have been published. It was published that we had 14 bottles of wine.”
“In an hour between us,” interjects Kate. “I’d have been impressed with that in my student days. Not only that, they qualify it by saying eight bottles of red and six of white, as though it gives it more credibility. You just want to scream.”
For the McCanns there is no respite, though they are slowly becoming accustomed to their grief. “They’re not gone, the feelings,” Gerry says. “When we enjoyed ourselves with the kids we had guilt – how could we enjoy ourselves when Madeleine was missing? But it’s so important for the kids that it’s unbridled love and attention for them. I’m definitely much better at doing that now, almost carefree for a lot of the time. Not 100 per cent.”
They will return to their home in Rothley, in the East Midlands, they confirm, and the timing will depend on the police investigation, which is currently in a state of hiatus as the PolÍcia Judiciária waits for the results of British tests on samples taken from the apartment.
Gerry has been home twice, he says, and has been inside the house. “I was pretty anxious about it, but it’s now a comfort. We’ll go back when we’ve done as much as we possibly can for Madeleine. We’re at a point where staying here is not necessarily adding anything to the campaign to find her.”
He has also discussed returning to work with his line manager; he elected to take unpaid leave rather than compassionate leave shortly after Madeleine’s disappearance. As a cardiologist who deals with very sick patients he doesn’t want to return immediately to a full-time schedule of patient care, but plans to focus initially on MRI scans, administration and academic work. “When you’re seeing 12 or 15 patients a day you have to be focused on them and can’t be thinking about what you want to do for missing children in Europe. When I’m occupied and applied it helps, and work eventually will take some of that focus. The fund enables us to make decisions for us and for Madeleine, and not for financial necessity. It’s not paying for any of our accommodation here, but it has covered a lot of expenses for us, and trips, and it helps to provide support for people to come out to help us, flights and things.”
As a part-time GP, Kate’s job is patient-centred, and she has yet to decide whether she will return to it. What they are certain of is that they will continue to campaign for systems to be established to help to recover missing children. Portugal, like Spain and many other European countries, does not have a sex offenders’ register, and as for the UK, although a Child Rescue alert system was launched here last year, relying primarily on speedy contact with the media, it has yet to be tested. Neither does Britain have any reliable statistics on missing children, and this means that the scale of the problem is unknown.
Fortunately, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has a system that works, and can be copied. It is based in Virginia, employs 300 people and its success relies on instant media alerts and distribution of fliers, and a high level of training for the professionals involved. Its agenda has always been to make its methods operate globally, and now it has Gerry and Kate McCann on its side. Their determination to be involved in this task is the first sign that something positive, tangible and enduring could come from what has so far been the bewildering and tragic story of Madeleine McCann.
Taken from possibly their last interview before they were made arguido. ...
"It felt so safe that I didn’t even have to – I mean, I don’t think we took a risk. If I put the children in the car the chances of having an accident would be greater than somebody coming in, breaking into your apartment and lifting a child out of her bed. But you never think, I shouldn’t put the children in the car.”
...
There's quite a few pieces of interest in this report, but this one intrigued me the most. Did Kate really think, at the beginning of Sep 2007, that it was a break-in?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 05, 2015, 03:31:38 PM
They've got a fund to raise silly. Their lawyers don't come cheap ya know.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 05, 2015, 07:42:23 PM
"You will also be aware of the Madeleine McCann case. Both this and the [Ben] Needham case are categorised as a missing persons, rather than child abduction cases, as there is no evidence in either case to support whether the children were or were not abducted."
- The Foreign and Commonwealth Office responding to a Freedom of Information request in connection with missing Ben Needham
What does Kerry have to say about this then? Does she now have to accept that Ben's abduction was just a fantasy she's been living with for the last 20+ years?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on November 05, 2015, 07:43:39 PM
What does Kerry have to say about this then? Does she now have to accept that Ben's abduction was just a fantasy she's been living with for the last 20+ years?
Has it occurred to you that Ben was abducted and Madeleine wasn't ?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 05, 2015, 07:45:58 PM
Has it occurred to you that Ben was abducted and Madeleine wasn't ?
The abduction fantasy?
"You will also be aware of the Madeleine McCann case. Both this and the [Ben] Needham case are categorised as a missing persons, rather than child abduction cases, as there is no evidence in either case to support whether the children were or were not abducted."
- The Foreign and Commonwealth Office responding to a Freedom of Information request in connection with missing Ben Needham
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on November 05, 2015, 07:47:50 PM
"You will also be aware of the Madeleine McCann case. Both this and the [Ben] Needham case are categorised as a missing persons, rather than child abduction cases, as there is no evidence in either case to support whether the children were or were not abducted."
- The Foreign and Commonwealth Office responding to a Freedom of Information request in connection with missing Ben Needham
I ask well aware of that alfred.
I do read.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 05, 2015, 07:48:56 PM
Gross oversight, I would say, but then, they were all rushing around in a panic.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 06, 2015, 06:31:53 PM
I think Kate had said you know, somebodys taken her, cos the shutter was up and the window was open, erm yeah, I think it was then that we kind of realised that she'd been taken, erm as, you know, as opposed to just kind of wandering out of her bed and just wondering where people were, erm and then, and I remember then going to talk to Jane and Matt went off and that, I went to talk to Jane and said you know, that Madeleine had disappeared and the window was open and the shutter was up. (RO)
Gerry, I don't think was in the apartment, it was mainly Kate. And Kate was just, huh, utter disbelief and I had disbelief, thinking she's got to be here, you know, what, how can this have happened. And by that point Kate was already saying that the, what she'd found when she'd gone back, which was that the, she'd found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me. (FP)
Kate was just err you can’t, you just can’t put into words how they were I mean they were just, I remember I went through into the room where err where Madeleine was sleeping and err and she said you know, somebody, you know, she’s been taken because she said that the shutters and that had been open, the window open. (DW)
It was pointed out, the window was open, the blind's not, you know, err down it's open, you know so those things you know I was made aware of but err as I say I couldn't tell you exactly how far down the blind was or how much the window was open.' (DP)
Go and find find a T7 who saw the window open? They were all told the window was found open by Kate.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on November 06, 2015, 08:00:15 PM
Neither on all their travels to and from their apartments nor after the event. It is possible though that they just did not look or look/see. What is odd is that Silvia Batista said Gerry had closed the window or he told her he had, but none of his prints /or partial or unidentified were found on it. Going off topic now I know.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Disc
Post by: Brietta on November 07, 2015, 10:27:22 AM
It doesn't necessarily follow that Madeleine was targeted by an obsessive who may have had sight of her during any one of the activities she pursued when out and about with her family. Although it is a possibility.
It could have been the apartment itself which was targeted awaiting only the arrival of a suitable family with a suitable child.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Disc
Post by: ShiningInLuz on November 07, 2015, 03:19:38 PM
It doesn't necessarily follow that Madeleine was targeted by an obsessive who may have had sight of her during any one of the activities she pursued when out and about with her family. Although it is a possibility.
It could have been the apartment itself which was targeted awaiting only the arrival of a suitable family with a suitable child.
That possibility exists, particularly given that the complex uses mechanical locks and metal keys. Anyone renting it even years earlier could have copied a key and simply waited.
With the passing of time before an abduction, any link to a long-gone occupant would have flown under the radar.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Disc
Post by: Brietta on November 07, 2015, 03:47:37 PM
That possibility exists, particularly given that the complex uses mechanical locks and metal keys. Anyone renting it even years earlier could have copied a key and simply waited.
With the passing of time before an abduction, any link to a long-gone occupant would have flown under the radar.
I think apartment 5A with its dark recessed front door and the overhanging trees around the carpark, lent itself almost perfectly perfectly to illicit entry.
A few previous occupants were checked out, but only in relation to finding an explanation for Eddie's 'alert'.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Disc
Post by: Brietta on November 08, 2015, 01:52:43 AM
What is more precious than a child? and when was the last time one was held for ransom? I can recall two ransom attempts; one in Australia when a young girl had a bomb (fake, I think, but real enough at the time) attached to her neck ... and was it a Guinness heir whose ear was sent to his family?
However ... just a reminder ...
**Snip Police say one reading of Madeleine McCann's disappearance in Portugal in 2007 is that it has "all the hallmarks of a pre-planned abduction". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24528530
/////// /////// /////// /////// /////// ///////
Planned abduction may not even concern a particular child. It may be any child. The apartment in Luz may have been staked out. Who can know what goes through the minds of these people. But there can be no doubt that there are those who for their own reasons want a particular child for a particular reason not necessarily to be abused, which may be a valid reason to continue hoping that Madeleine is alive and well.
/////// /////// /////// /////// /////// ///////
**Snip A HORRIFYING picture of the full scale of child abduction by strangers in Britain is revealed in a new shock report. Last year 273 kids were targeted by predators they did not know who tried to — or did — snatch them. Abductions by strangers made up nearly half of all the 592 reported snatches involving 675 children in the UK in 2011/12. http://theukdatabase.com/uk-child-abusers-named-and-shamed/facts-and-stats-on-child-abuse/child-abduction-the-stats/273-uk-kids-abducted-in-a-year/
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Disc
Post by: stephen25000 on November 08, 2015, 07:58:02 AM
What is more precious than a child? and when was the last time one was held for ransom? I can recall two ransom attempts; one in Australia when a young girl had a bomb (fake, I think, but real enough at the time) attached to her neck ... and was it a Guinness heir whose ear was sent to his family?
However ... just a reminder ...
**Snip Police say one reading of Madeleine McCann's disappearance in Portugal in 2007 is that it has "all the hallmarks of a pre-planned abduction". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24528530
/////// /////// /////// /////// /////// ///////
Planned abduction may not even concern a particular child. It may be any child. The apartment in Luz may have been staked out. Who can know what goes through the minds of these people. But there can be no doubt that there are those who for their own reasons want a particular child for a particular reason not necessarily to be abused, which may be a valid reason to continue hoping that Madeleine is alive and well.
/////// /////// /////// /////// /////// ///////
**Snip A HORRIFYING picture of the full scale of child abduction by strangers in Britain is revealed in a new shock report. Last year 273 kids were targeted by predators they did not know who tried to — or did — snatch them. Abductions by strangers made up nearly half of all the 592 reported snatches involving 675 children in the UK in 2011/12. http://theukdatabase.com/uk-child-abusers-named-and-shamed/facts-and-stats-on-child-abuse/child-abduction-the-stats/273-uk-kids-abducted-in-a-year/
Yet not one solid piece of evidence that Madeleine was abducted.
Why do you give the figures for the UK ?
What about Portugal ?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Disc
Post by: slartibartfast on November 08, 2015, 08:20:06 AM
What is more precious than a child? and when was the last time one was held for ransom? I can recall two ransom attempts; one in Australia when a young girl had a bomb (fake, I think, but real enough at the time) attached to her neck ... and was it a Guinness heir whose ear was sent to his family?
However ... just a reminder ...
**Snip Police say one reading of Madeleine McCann's disappearance in Portugal in 2007 is that it has "all the hallmarks of a pre-planned abduction". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24528530
/////// /////// /////// /////// /////// ///////
Planned abduction may not even concern a particular child. It may be any child. The apartment in Luz may have been staked out. Who can know what goes through the minds of these people. But there can be no doubt that there are those who for their own reasons want a particular child for a particular reason not necessarily to be abused, which may be a valid reason to continue hoping that Madeleine is alive and well.
/////// /////// /////// /////// /////// ///////
**Snip A HORRIFYING picture of the full scale of child abduction by strangers in Britain is revealed in a new shock report. Last year 273 kids were targeted by predators they did not know who tried to — or did — snatch them. Abductions by strangers made up nearly half of all the 592 reported snatches involving 675 children in the UK in 2011/12. http://theukdatabase.com/uk-child-abusers-named-and-shamed/facts-and-stats-on-child-abuse/child-abduction-the-stats/273-uk-kids-abducted-in-a-year/
Quote
Of those, 52 kids were snatched, 203 were attempted abductions and 18 were unable to be verified. The average age of the victim was 12 and three-quarters and most were girls.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Disc
Post by: G-Unit on November 08, 2015, 08:36:08 AM
Stranger child abduction Nearly one-fifth of completed abductions recorded by police were perpetrated by a stranger (someone who was not known to, or recognised by, the victim). That’s nearly 50 a year. Some, but not all, result in sexual assault⁴.
Other abductions by a stranger may be excluded from police figures because they have been recorded as rapes or, very rarely, murders.
Four times as many attempted abductions by a stranger (186 in 2011/12) are recorded by police than completed abductions. Nearly two-thirds involved a perpetrator in a vehicle. Whilst most children suffered no injury, nearly half the victims were grabbed, dragged or held by the offender⁴.
Three-quarters of children abducted (or attempted to be abducted) by a stranger are girls. Victims of attempted stranger abduction have an average age of 11 years. Victims of completed abduction (with a clear sexual motive) have an average age of 14 years⁴. http://www.childabduction.org.uk/index.php/the-facts
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Disc
Post by: Mr Gray on November 08, 2015, 08:49:39 AM
Stranger child abduction Nearly one-fifth of completed abductions recorded by police were perpetrated by a stranger (someone who was not known to, or recognised by, the victim). That’s nearly 50 a year. Some, but not all, result in sexual assault⁴.
Other abductions by a stranger may be excluded from police figures because they have been recorded as rapes or, very rarely, murders.
Four times as many attempted abductions by a stranger (186 in 2011/12) are recorded by police than completed abductions. Nearly two-thirds involved a perpetrator in a vehicle. Whilst most children suffered no injury, nearly half the victims were grabbed, dragged or held by the offender⁴.
Three-quarters of children abducted (or attempted to be abducted) by a stranger are girls. Victims of attempted stranger abduction have an average age of 11 years. Victims of completed abduction (with a clear sexual motive) have an average age of 14 years⁴. http://www.childabduction.org.uk/index.php/the-facts
so 50 a year....how many of those result in the permanent disappearance of the child...hardly any
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Disc
Post by: slartibartfast on November 08, 2015, 08:53:35 AM
So you would look at other scenarios rather than assume stranger abduction as the most likely solution.
you misunderstand.....let me explain what are the chances of a child being abducted....very...very..remote what are the chances that Maddie was abducted...highly probable
I've considered the other scenarios
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Disc
Post by: slartibartfast on November 08, 2015, 05:20:06 PM
you misunderstand.....let me explain what are the chances of a child being abducted....very...very..remote what are the chances that Maddie was abducted...highly probable
I've considered the other scenarios
Classic.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Disc
Post by: Mr Gray on November 08, 2015, 05:29:04 PM
perhaps you could be more constructive rather than just simple name calling.....I see abduction as by far the most likely...as I have said before children don't roll off the sofa and die as amaral and many others expect us to believe. If you can give a scenario more likely than abduction I'm all ears...there simply isn't one
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Disc
Post by: stephen25000 on November 08, 2015, 06:01:24 PM
perhaps you could be more constructive rather than just simple name calling.....I see abduction as by far the most likely...as I have said before children don't roll off the sofa and die as amaral and many others expect us to believe. If you can give a scenario more likely than abduction I'm all ears...there simply isn't one
There are.
You won't accept any alternative for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Disc
Post by: G-Unit on November 08, 2015, 07:08:06 PM
the situation wont change mccanns not suspects no accident that fits the bill
I'm more than happy to be corrected
The crime is undetermined.
Options remain on the table.
There are theories which also fit the bill, whether you like it or not.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Disc
Post by: Mr Gray on November 08, 2015, 08:51:55 PM
just to remind you Stephen...my day job requires that everything I do is evidenced based so I am used to assessing evidence. I've looked at the evidence in this case and considered all possibilities including involvement of the parents. my conclusion is abduction is by far the most probable ....and it seems SY agree with me.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Disc
Post by: stephen25000 on November 08, 2015, 09:03:57 PM
just to remind you Stephen...my day job requires that everything I do is evidenced based so I am used to assessing evidence. I've looked at the evidence in this case and considered all possibilities including involvement of the parents. my conclusion is abduction is by far the most probable ....and it seems SY agree with me.
Just to remind you SY have found nothing and are merely chasing the tale of the donkey.
Your conclusion is irrelevant.
Crime remains undetermined.
FACT.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on November 08, 2015, 09:21:29 PM
Just read "The Ice Twins"...a little light reading...part of the plot is that children invariably survive a fall of 30 feet but not 40...sort of puts the fall off the sofa into persopective
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on November 09, 2015, 07:57:39 AM
Just read "The Ice Twins"...a little light reading...part of the plot is that children invariably survive a fall of 30 feet but not 40...sort of puts the fall off the sofa into persopective
Stranger abduction is extremely rare. Accidents involving children are fairly common. Usually they escape serious injury, but not always.
Falls Around 10 children die as a result of falls each year - some from windows and balconies and the remainder mostly from stairs. http://www.rospa.com/home-safety/advice/child-safety/accidents-to-children/#falls
Instant death is a rarity these days because hospitals will use life support even if the outlook is bleak. I would guess there was little hope here, but the doctors still put the child in ITC;
A two-year-old girl has died after suffering head injuries at a house in Ashton-under-Lyne. http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/two-year-old-girl-dies-after-falling-684244
There was definitely a dangerous set of stairs at the apartment, along with things to climb on;
Stranger abduction is extremely rare. Accidents involving children are fairly common. Usually they escape serious injury, but not always.
Falls Around 10 children die as a result of falls each year - some from windows and balconies and the remainder mostly from stairs. http://www.rospa.com/home-safety/advice/child-safety/accidents-to-children/#falls
Instant death is a rarity these days because hospitals will use life support even if the outlook is bleak. I would guess there was little hope here, but the doctors still put the child in ITC;
A two-year-old girl has died after suffering head injuries at a house in Ashton-under-Lyne. http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/two-year-old-girl-dies-after-falling-684244
There was definitely a dangerous set of stairs at the apartment, along with things to climb on;
we have been all over this before......whilst accidents are common an immediate fatal accident is unheard of.....the 2 year old died the following day. At least you are now accepting no accident inside the apartment
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on November 09, 2015, 08:23:30 AM
we have been all over this before......whilst accidents are common an immediate fatal accident is unheard of.....the 2 year old died the following day. At least you are now accepting no accident inside the apartment
Years ago this death would probably have been instant or very quick. Medical advances allied with paramedical attendance, resuscitation and life support means the moment of death can be delayed nowadays. I have never suggested that death took place inside the apartment due to an accident.
This one was, like the other one, found immediately and put on life support. Who knows if either of them would have been able to be put on life support if there had been a delay?
Years ago this death would probably have been instant or very quick. Medical advances allied with paramedical attendance, resuscitation and life support means the moment of death can be delayed nowadays. I have never suggested that death took place inside the apartment due to an accident.
This one was, like the other one, found immediately and put on life support. Who knows if either of them would have been able to be put on life support if there had been a delay?
Years ago this death would probably have been instant or very quick. Medical advances allied with paramedical attendance, resuscitation and life support means the moment of death can be delayed nowadays. I have never suggested that death took place inside the apartment due to an accident.
This one was, like the other one, found immediately and put on life support. Who knows if either of them would have been able to be put on life support if there had been a delay?
no it would not have been instant or quick...it takes time for the pressure to build up in the brain to cause death...that's why if maddie had had a head injury the mccanns would know immediate hospital treatment would save her life
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on November 09, 2015, 01:02:42 PM
no it would not have been instant or quick...it takes time for the pressure to build up in the brain to cause death...that's why if maddie had had a head injury the mccanns would know immediate hospital treatment would save her life
You may argue, but there are injuries that kill, especially if treatment is delayed. Severing the spinal cord can cause asphyxiation. This can happen with a fall.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on November 09, 2015, 01:13:44 PM
You may argue, but there are injuries that kill, especially if treatment is delayed. Severing the spinal cord can cause asphyxiation. This can happen with a fall.
davel has already been given examples before.
He chooses to ignore what doesn't suit his agenda on here.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on November 09, 2015, 02:47:04 PM
You may argue, but there are injuries that kill, especially if treatment is delayed. Severing the spinal cord can cause asphyxiation. This can happen with a fall.
So not inside the apartment But on the steps outside and nobody heard a thing Ridiculous
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on November 09, 2015, 02:49:05 PM
He chooses to ignore what doesn't suit his agenda on here.
I know, but I will continue to make the point because no matter how much the possibility is dismissed or ridiculed it's important to stress that it's still a possibility. People with open minds know that it's at least as likely as stranger abduction; probably more likely statistically.
@davel Why would it be noisy?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 09, 2015, 04:10:30 PM
I know, but I will continue to make the point because no matter how much the possibility is dismissed or ridiculed it's important to stress that it's still a possibility. People with open minds know that it's at least as likely as stranger abduction; probably more likely statistically.
@davel Why would it be noisy?
a child falling down steps would scream do you not think...you have no real idea how likely it is...where's your evidence
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 09, 2015, 04:27:20 PM
Stranger abduction is extremely rare. Accidents involving children are fairly common. Usually they escape serious injury, but not always.
Falls Around 10 children die as a result of falls each year - some from windows and balconies and the remainder mostly from stairs. http://www.rospa.com/home-safety/advice/child-safety/accidents-to-children/#falls
Instant death is a rarity these days because hospitals will use life support even if the outlook is bleak. I would guess there was little hope here, but the doctors still put the child in ITC;
A two-year-old girl has died after suffering head injuries at a house in Ashton-under-Lyne. http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/two-year-old-girl-dies-after-falling-684244
There was definitely a dangerous set of stairs at the apartment, along with things to climb on;
That's what I'm asking you!! I don't think it did happen, you think it might have happened, if it did happen then it would have happened after 8.30pm, when the McCanns left the apartment, so when do you suppose she was found?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on November 09, 2015, 07:30:04 PM
That's what I'm asking you!! I don't think it did happen, you think it might have happened, if it did happen then it would have happened after 8.30pm, when the McCanns left the apartment, so when do you suppose she was found?
I never said it might have happened, I said it was just as possible as stranger abduction.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on November 09, 2015, 07:32:33 PM
you are making statements that simply have no evidence base...simply your limited opinion...my mind is still completely open but unlike you.... I understand the evidence
The lack of evidence which 'proves' abduction you mean?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on November 09, 2015, 07:35:24 PM
The lack of evidence which 'proves' abduction you mean?
as I have said [ moderated abusive comment ] you would understand that abduction can be proved.....but first you would have to understand what proof means...and you don't
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 09, 2015, 07:48:32 PM
There is proof she left the apartment no one argues with that, however there is no proof WHO removed her and what her mortal state was/is at that time.
Some people think the parents. Some people think someone else/or a gang.
Both scenarios are open for discussion( without insults) and both probable.
McCanns and supporters have lost credibility and support.IMO and the opinion is shared by a great many people.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on November 09, 2015, 07:52:23 PM
as I have said [ moderated abusive comment ] you would understand that abduction can be proved.....but first you would have to understand what proof means...and you don't
[ moderated reply ]
Let's hear your proof of abduction then, and no, you haven't already provided it elsewhere, before you try that one again.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Admin on November 09, 2015, 08:19:39 PM
as I have said [ moderated abusive comment ] you would understand that abduction can be proved.....but first you would have to understand what proof means...and you don't
That is untrue davel so please refrain from posting speculation as fact. Nobody knows what happened to Madeleine even now unless the person or persons who might have had an involvement in her disappearance.
There is no evidence to support an abduction and most definitely no proof that one took place.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on November 09, 2015, 08:22:06 PM
That is untrue davel so please refrain from posting speculation as fact. Nobody knows what happened to Madeleine even now unless the person or persons who might have had an involvement in her disappearance.
There is no evidence to support an abduction and most definitely no proof that one took place.
It isn't speculation It depends on what level of proof is required You do realise there are different levels of proof
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on November 09, 2015, 08:23:58 PM
the civil level of proof ..as used in court is the balance of probabilities... I would say that as Sy have said that the mccanns are not suspects then on the balance of probabilities abduction is what happened...you might not like it but that's how it is. You are also wrong to say there is no evidence of abduction....Redwood himself has said that based on the evidence he believes maddie was abducted...
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on November 09, 2015, 08:48:56 PM
the civil level of proof ..as used in court is the balance of probabilities... I would say that as Sy have said that the mccanns are not suspects then on the balance of probabilities abduction is what happened...you might not like it but that's how it is. You are also wrong to say there is no evidence of abduction....Redwood himself has said that based on the evidence he believes maddie was abducted...
Redwood? The yesterday man?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 09, 2015, 08:54:27 PM
the civil level of proof ..as used in court is the balance of probabilities... I would say that as Sy have said that the mccanns are not suspects then on the balance of probabilities abduction is what happened...you might not like it but that's how it is. You are also wrong to say there is no evidence of abduction....Redwood himself has said that based on the evidence he believes maddie was abducted...
And if they are SY are not going to tell you or other supporters. The PJ said they weren't suspects in 2007 but they lied @)(++(*
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Admin on November 09, 2015, 09:16:54 PM
the civil level of proof ..as used in court is the balance of probabilities... I would say that as Sy have said that the mccanns are not suspects then on the balance of probabilities abduction is what happened...you might not like it but that's how it is. You are also wrong to say there is no evidence of abduction....Redwood himself has said that based on the evidence he believes maddie was abducted...
Seems it is you who are confused davel. I said there is no proof, I did not say there was no evidence.
That evidence however is minimal and highly tenuous.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on November 09, 2015, 09:30:13 PM
anyone who believes the McCanns will be ridiculed ...we have come to expect your mindset
Are you saying Redwood believed the McCanns? I don't remember him saying that. He also got rid of the sighting they promoted for years and concentrated on the one they played down. It's not ridicule to say he's yesterday's man, he is as irrelevant to the present investigations as Amaral is.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on November 09, 2015, 09:33:43 PM
Are you saying Redwood believed the McCanns? I don't remember him saying that. He also got rid of the sighting they promoted for years and concentrated on the one they played down. It's not ridicule to say he's yesterday's man, he is as irrelevant to the present investigations as Amaral is.
definitely gold medal material
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 09, 2015, 09:35:37 PM
There is no evidence to support an abduction and most definitely no proof that one took place.
There is no evidence to support it only an unidentified man who was seen carrying a lookalike child. Nobody can vouch for an open window except what they were told. The police just found a tampered crime scene with shutters down and window closed.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 09, 2015, 09:38:31 PM
Are you saying Redwood believed the McCanns? I don't remember him saying that. He also got rid of the sighting they promoted for years and concentrated on the one they played down. It's not ridicule to say he's yesterday's man, he is as irrelevant to the present investigations as Amaral is.
From a link Brietta posted about a week or so ago:
"We still have very definite lines to pursue which is why we are keeping a dedicated team of officers working on the case. "The Portuguese police remain the lead investigators and our team will continue to support their inquiry. "Speaking to The Portugal News on Wednesday, a Portuguese police source said that while there are “about two or three other cases of missing children in Portugal, but we have a reasonable understanding of who might be responsible for their disappearance. However in the case of Madeleine McCann, we are yet to come up with a satisfactory explanation as to what happened to her”,
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on November 09, 2015, 09:45:05 PM
From a link Brietta posted about a week or so ago:
"We still have very definite lines to pursue which is why we are keeping a dedicated team of officers working on the case. "The Portuguese police remain the lead investigators and our team will continue to support their inquiry. "Speaking to The Portugal News on Wednesday, a Portuguese police source said that while there are “about two or three other cases of missing children in Portugal, but we have a reasonable understanding of who might be responsible for their disappearance. However in the case of Madeleine McCann, we are yet to come up with a satisfactory explanation as to what happened to her”,
It was actually quite refreshing not to have had the anonymous "Portuguese police source" or even "sources close to the inquiry" dispensing propaganda to the media. Based on past evidence about the deliberate inaccuracies imparted in this way ... it is probably a good idea to await official announcements from a verifiable source.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on November 09, 2015, 09:47:17 PM
It was actually quite refreshing not to have had the anonymous "Portuguese police source" or even "sources close to the inquiry" dispensing propaganda to the media. Based on past evidence about the deliberate inaccuracies imparted in this way ... it is probably a good idea to await official announcements from a verifiable source.
Yet you are quite happy to have propaganda from the mccanns or sources close to them.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Admin on November 09, 2015, 10:16:58 PM
Again you fail to comprehend the fact that there was evidence but none to SUPPORT an abduction.
The word SUPPORT is thus the operative word.
An abduction is but one of several possible scenarios in relation to what befell Madeleine McCann, no investigators have as yet provided any proof to favour one theory over another.
The jury is still firmly out on that one.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on November 10, 2015, 07:45:25 AM
Again you fail to comprehend the fact that there was evidence but none to SUPPORT an abduction.
The word SUPPORT is thus the operative word.
An abduction is but one of several possible scenarios in relation to what befell Madeleine McCann, no investigators have as yet provided any proof to favour one theory over another.
The jury is still firmly out on that one.
redwood states that based on the evidence he believes Maddie was abducted
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on November 10, 2015, 07:49:23 AM
Again you fail to comprehend the fact that there was evidence but none to SUPPORT an abduction.
The word SUPPORT is thus the operative word.
An abduction is but one of several possible scenarios in relation to what befell Madeleine McCann, no investigators have as yet provided any proof to favour one theory over another.
The jury is still firmly out on that one.
could you explain what level of proof you are talking about...absolute...criminal...or civil.... OJ simpson was guilty based on the civil level...and paid damages ...but was found not guilty at the criminal level...
If the parents are not suspects...as Redwood has said...then stranger abduction is odds on
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 10, 2015, 08:03:01 AM
Again you fail to comprehend the fact that there was evidence but none to SUPPORT an abduction.
The word SUPPORT is thus the operative word.
An abduction is but one of several possible scenarios in relation to what befell Madeleine McCann, no investigators have as yet provided any proof to favour one theory over another.
The jury is still firmly out on that one.
A missing child is evidence that supports abduction, an open window that was previously shut is evidence that supports abduction, man seen walking through town at night with a child that resembles the missing child is evidence that supports abduction. Your opinion of that evidence is neither here nor there, the fact is there is evidence which supports abduction, whether you accept it or not. If and when it is proven that Madeleine was abducted all those bits of evidence I have highlighted may well prove to be valuable evidence in the case against the perpetrator,
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on November 10, 2015, 08:06:51 AM
A missing child is evidence that supports abduction, an open window that was previously shut is evidence that supports abduction, man seen walking through town at night with a child that resembles the missing child is evidence that supports abduction. Your opinion of that evidence is neither here nor there, the fact is there is evidence which supports abduction, whether you accept it or not. If and when it is proven that Madeleine was abducted all those bits of evidence I have highlighted may well prove to be valuable evidence in the case against the perpetrator,
A missing child also supports accidental death.
A missing child also supports her walking out of the apartment.
Now Alfred, let's have the evidence for abduction, and in the REAL WORLD.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on November 10, 2015, 08:26:24 AM
A missing child is evidence that supports abduction, an open window that was previously shut is evidence that supports abduction, man seen walking through town at night with a child that resembles the missing child is evidence that supports abduction. Your opinion of that evidence is neither here nor there, the fact is there is evidence which supports abduction, whether you accept it or not. If and when it is proven that Madeleine was abducted all those bits of evidence I have highlighted may well prove to be valuable evidence in the case against the perpetrator,
When a child is reported missing police don't see that as evidence of abduction. It's just one possibility.
An open window isn't evidence. Fingerprints, fibres, signs of forcing the window open are evidence.
A man seen carrying a child isn't evidence of an abduction, as was demonstrated by 'Tannerman' becoming 'Crecheman'.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ShiningInLuz on November 10, 2015, 08:27:59 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EyqHtsLeGQ What Redwood said. Feel free to cherry-pick as you please.
25:55 The importance of the sightings
Madeleine McCann's disappearance does, on one reading of the evidence, have the hallmarks of a pre-planned abduction. That would undoubtedly have involved reconnaissance, and so we are really keen to understand who these people were.
They may all be separate. So it is really important this evening to say to the public that if you recognize yourself then please have the courage to come forward, because it is really important for us to eliminate any sightings that are innocent and have nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance.
26:28 The burglaries As well as that line of inquiry, and the sighting by the Irish family of a man carrying a child, the police are also looking at a third important strand of their investigation.
We have noticed that there was, between January and the time Madeleine went missing, a four-fold increase in the number of burglaries that were taking place in the vicinity.
In the three weeks prior to her disappearance, two incidents took place in the very block when Madeleine slept. In both, windows were used to gain access.
Possibly, there is a scenario where Madeleine could have disturbed somebody trying to commit a burglary.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on November 10, 2015, 08:38:46 AM
the fact that the mccanns are not suspects means accidental death has been ruled out
Have you asked Ms. Wall that question ?
The repetition of abduction by mccann supporters despite the lack of evidence reminds me of a certain German Propagandist, and of course, without the 'abduction' there is only accidental death, or wandering off scenarios to look at, both bad for the mccanns.
and ONE more time, CRIME UNKNOWN,
You can't eliminate possible suspects in this situation.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on November 10, 2015, 08:40:56 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EyqHtsLeGQ What Redwood said. Feel free to cherry-pick as you please.
25:55 The importance of the sightings
Madeleine McCann's disappearance does, on one reading of the evidence, have the hallmarks of a pre-planned abduction. That would undoubtedly have involved reconnaissance, and so we are really keen to understand who these people were.
They may all be separate. So it is really important this evening to say to the public that if you recognize yourself then please have the courage to come forward, because it is really important for us to eliminate any sightings that are innocent and have nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance.
26:28 The burglaries As well as that line of inquiry, and the sighting by the Irish family of a man carrying a child, the police are also looking at a third important strand of their investigation.
We have noticed that there was, between January and the time Madeleine went missing, a four-fold increase in the number of burglaries that were taking place in the vicinity.
In the three weeks prior to her disappearance, two incidents took place in the very block when Madeleine slept. In both, windows were used to gain access.
Possibly, there is a scenario where Madeleine could have disturbed somebody trying to commit a burglary.
Yet in this case, no evidence of a break in.
Even Mitchell acknowledged that.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on November 10, 2015, 09:08:48 AM
The repetition of abduction by mccann supporters despite the lack of evidence reminds me of a certain German Propagandist, and of course, without the 'abduction' there is only accidental death, or wandering off scenarios to look at, both bad for the mccanns.
and ONE more time, CRIME UNKNOWN,
You can't eliminate possible suspects in this situation.
SY did....Redwood told us...PROOF you are wrong
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on November 10, 2015, 09:15:10 AM
What evidence was there of the break-ins in block 5?
It was alleged the tourists had left their door unlocked?
The resident, Mrs Fenn, recorded it in a statement some time after the event.
That the window was open and the shutter raised was recorded in Dr McCann's statement. If you choose not to believe that ... it is entirely your choice. However it would have been a pretty lame 'faked abduction plot' if you set the scene up with raised shutter only to check out if it was possible to raise the shutter from outside by lowering it, don't you think.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on November 10, 2015, 09:25:46 AM
Okey dokey ... lets all pretend no serious crime happened eight years ago in Luz? Where is Madeleine, then?
Clearly something happened because a child disappeared. Various hypotheses have been explored. None of them have been proved, none of them haves been disproved.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on November 10, 2015, 09:42:38 AM
So, again to a mccann supporter, if you think she is alive, where will that be ?
There are a number of scenarios, Madeleine could have been abducted to be sold for illegal adoption, abducted for a paedophile ring, abducted as a means for raising money.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on November 10, 2015, 09:57:22 AM
So, again to a mccann supporter, if you think she is alive, where will that be ?
Maybe if it is possible to get results from the foreign DNA still held in storage ~ we may be a step closer to answering that perennial question of yours. But even for that we will have to wait for the professionals to give us the information to your shallow query.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on November 10, 2015, 09:58:07 AM
Redwood states live...so no misreporting... it is our belief...based on the evidence...that it was a criminal act by a stranger
listen at 3 minutes
There is absolutely no mistaking that ... isn't modern technology superb when taken in context.
The question that now faces us is how after a lengthy review of ALL the evidence we are to interpret the following as Scotland Yard disavowing that Madeleine McCann wasn't the victim of stranger abduction.
it is our belief
based on the evidence
criminal act
by a stranger
I've puzzled about it ... but the nuance which eliminates abduction from the equation is escaping me ... no doubt someone will explain.
Maybe while they are at it they can take the time to explain why the Policia Judiiaria are also following the abduction theory.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on November 10, 2015, 10:20:21 AM
There is absolutely no mistaking that ... isn't modern technology superb when taken in context.
The question that now faces us is how after a lengthy review of ALL the evidence we are to interpret the following as Scotland Yard disavowing that Madeleine McCann wasn't the victim of stranger abduction.
it is our belief
based on the evidence
criminal act
by a stranger
I've puzzled about it ... but the nuance which eliminates abduction from the equation is escaping me ... no doubt someone will explain.
Maybe while they are at it they can take the time to explain why the Policia Judiiaria are also following the abduction theory.
and they have failed to find anything.
Isn't the SY team marvelous ?
Or of course, there was nothing to find in the first place. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on November 10, 2015, 10:33:22 AM
Or of course, there was nothing to find in the first place. 8)-)))
Indeed the Scotland Yard team are marvellous and have sifted through mountains of information to eliminate that which can be ruled out to retain that which is relevant.
No easy task.
They are now following live relevant information which will either be ruled out or followed to its conclusion.
If I may say so you appear to have a really weird concept of how a police investigation works.
"There was nothing to find in the first place" ... Wow!!! have you forgotten Madeleine McCann, the missing child you apparently think is unworthy of being looked for ??????
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 10, 2015, 10:46:29 AM
When a child is reported missing police don't see that as evidence of abduction. It's just one possibility.
An open window isn't evidence. Fingerprints, fibres, signs of forcing the window open are evidence.
A man seen carrying a child isn't evidence of an abduction, as was demonstrated by 'Tannerman' becoming 'Crecheman'.
Your opinion only. If a suspected perpetrator, known for breaking and entering and sex crimes against children was found who resembled Smithman, and the police believed he was in the right place at the right time, then do you not think a sighting of a man carrying a child that night, and an open window would be considered evidence that the police might use to try and build a case against him?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 10, 2015, 10:51:25 AM
Your opinion only. If a suspected perpetrator, known for breaking and entering and sex crimes against children was found who resembled Smithman, and the police believed he was in the right place at the right time, then do you not think a sighting of a man carrying a child that night, and an open window would be considered evidence that the police might use to try and build a case against him?
Keep up alfred.
There is no evidence.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 10, 2015, 11:28:34 AM
So - there is no evidence of anything then. None, nada, zilch. Thousands of scraps of worthless paper in hundreds of files. Great, glad we got that sorted then!
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on November 10, 2015, 11:34:00 AM
So - there is no evidence of anything then. None, nada, zilch. Thousands of scraps of worthless paper in hundreds of files. Great, glad we got that sorted then!
Unless the PJ realised what a **** job they did taking all those staements and have thrown them all in the bin
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on November 10, 2015, 12:15:34 PM
It seems to have escaped certain people's attention that the majority of files and leads in cases go nowhere.
Which is precisely what has happened in this case.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on November 10, 2015, 12:21:59 PM
So - there is no evidence of anything then. None, nada, zilch. Thousands of scraps of worthless paper in hundreds of files. Great, glad we got that sorted then!
You are probably right. Most of what has been investigated will likely have been totally irrelevant.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on November 10, 2015, 12:28:13 PM
I thought it would have made bigger and more widespread copy than that? anything at all in the Portuguese press apart from this worthy? scoop.
There was something some time ago about a letter from an illustrious German detective who happened to be in Luz at the time in question ... that seemed to fizzle out a bit too ... or ... was it a dream?? LOL
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on November 10, 2015, 12:31:23 PM
I thought it would have made bigger and more widespread copy than that? anything at all in the Portuguese press apart from this worthy? scoop.
There was something some time ago about a letter from an illustrious German detective who happened to be in Luz at the time in question ... that seemed to fizzle out a bit too ... or ... was it a dream?? LOL
Is that what? I posted a link for interest. It's up to you what you make of it or do with it.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on November 10, 2015, 12:46:34 PM
Is that what? I posted a link for interest. It's up to you what you make of it or do with it.
How useful it might have been to state that or whatever point you may have intended to highlight in your link which we have probably all read and made our own assessment of in any case.
That is what normally happens in discussion ... however as I have already said about this either on this thread or another ... what a pity the unattributable 'police spokesperson' or ' spokesperson close to the investigation' has yet again been allowed to raise his/her ugly head.
Ms Donn's journalistic skills or lack of led her to total misinterpretation of how gofundme works with her putting her name to prejudicial, untrue statements, serving only to display her appalling inability to research ... encourages me to wait for an official spokesperson to make a statement and competent journalists to report on it.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on November 10, 2015, 01:06:59 PM
Nothing is discarded, merely put aside in case it needs to be revisited.
Absolutely correct.
It is all evidence and would never be binned or put away in a file marked "not relevant to the inquiry" which happened formerly at a time it might very well have been entirely relevant.
There is so much information there, who is to say something has not been overlooked, or something discarded does not become relevant with the introduction and joining up of newer information making it relevant.
On the other hand there is information which is likely and information which is highly unlikely to be of use. HOLMES and trained personnel will I am sure be capable of differentiating.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 10, 2015, 01:08:01 PM
How useful it might have been to state that or whatever point you may have intended to highlight in your link which we have probably all read and made our own assessment of in any case.
That is what normally happens in discussion ... however as I have already said about this either on this thread or another ... what a pity the unattributable 'police spokesperson' or ' spokesperson close to the investigation' has yet again been allowed to raise his/her ugly head.
Ms Donn's journalistic skills or lack of led her to total misinterpretation of how gofundme works with her putting her name to prejudicial, untrue statements, serving only to display her appalling inability to research ... encourages me to wait for an official spokesperson to make a statement and competent journalists to report on it.
Well you are part of of an "industry" that has kept going for 8 years in one unpleasantly aggressive format or another based on only one incontrovertible fact. Two if you stretch a point.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on November 10, 2015, 01:17:33 PM
Well you are part of of an "industry" that has kept going for 8 years in one unpleasantly aggressive format or another based on only one incontrovertible fact. Two if you stretch a point.
You really do appear to have a very one sided prejudicial view of posters who state the truth as is, do you not?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on November 10, 2015, 02:54:33 PM
Your opinion only. If a suspected perpetrator, known for breaking and entering and sex crimes against children was found who resembled Smithman, and the police believed he was in the right place at the right time, then do you not think a sighting of a man carrying a child that night, and an open window would be considered evidence that the police might use to try and build a case against him?
That would be a gift that exceeded their wildest dreams, wouldn't it? Anyway, let's imagine they find one. The first step is to make sure he hasn't got an innocent explanation or alibi. Then a line-up (or the modern equivalent) probably to see if the witnesses can pick him out. As there was no evidence on or around the window I would steer clear of it if I were them. It would simply allow an attack by the suspect's defense lawyer on the only witnesses to see the open window. As there's no evidence showing that anyone opened it or climbed in or out of it the window is not much use at all.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 10, 2015, 04:33:20 PM
That would be a gift that exceeded their wildest dreams, wouldn't it? Anyway, let's imagine they find one. The first step is to make sure he hasn't got an innocent explanation or alibi. Then a line-up (or the modern equivalent) probably to see if the witnesses can pick him out. As there was no evidence on or around the window I would steer clear of it if I were them. It would simply allow an attack by the suspect's defense lawyer on the only witnesses to see the open window. As there's no evidence showing that anyone opened it or climbed in or out of it the window is not much use at all.
All irrelevant to my point. There is evidence that supports an abduction, whether you agree or not.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on November 10, 2015, 04:37:19 PM
I never said it might have happened, I said it was just as possible as stranger abduction.
Those two statements contradict each other. What you are saying is that Madeleine might have had an accident falling down the stairs, dying instantly, which is a scenario that you believe is just as possible as stranger abduction. That being the case I am asking you what you imagine happened after this incident, for starters: what time do you imagine she was discovered dead at the bottom of the stairs?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 10, 2015, 07:43:50 PM
Well if you and your fellows wish to continue the myth of the abductor, expect no less.
Aw c'mon Stevo of course it was an abduction lets look at the history: May 4th 2007 to 14th October 2013: "it was an abduction because Jane saw the abductor". 14th October 2013 (latest): Andy unsportingly frags the abductor in the frame so he is no more. 15th October 2013(after Crimewatch) to the present, without drawing breath and neither breaking step nor wind "of course it was abduction we just need to find another abductor". Well they are a dime a dozen on the Algarve....allegedly.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on November 10, 2015, 07:52:16 PM
Aw c'mon Stevo of course it was an abduction lets look at the history: May 4th 2007 to 14th October 2013: "it was an abduction because Jane saw the abductor". 14th October 2013 (latest): Andy unsportingly frags the abductor in the frame so he is no more. 15th October 2013(after Crimewatch) to the present, without drawing breath and neither breaking step nor wind "of course it was abduction we just need to find another abductor". Well they are a dime a dozen on the Algarve....allegedly.
It must have been those darn reptilians dressed in human skin. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 10, 2015, 08:39:13 PM
Aw c'mon Stevo of course it was an abduction lets look at the history: May 4th 2007 to 14th October 2013: "it was an abduction because Jane saw the abductor". 14th October 2013 (latest): Andy unsportingly frags the abductor in the frame so he is no more. 15th October 2013(after Crimewatch) to the present, without drawing breath and neither breaking step nor wind "of course it was abduction we just need to find another abductor". Well they are a dime a dozen on the Algarve....allegedly.
why do you ridicule the notion of abduction in this case?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on November 10, 2015, 08:57:51 PM
Aw c'mon Stevo of course it was an abduction lets look at the history: May 4th 2007 to 14th October 2013: "it was an abduction because Jane saw the abductor". 14th October 2013 (latest): Andy unsportingly frags the abductor in the frame so he is no more. 15th October 2013(after Crimewatch) to the present, without drawing breath and neither breaking step nor wind "of course it was abduction we just need to find another abductor". Well they are a dime a dozen on the Algarve....allegedly.
it really is quite simple...if the parents are innocent....abduction is odds on favourite...for lots and lots of reasons...I think they are...so abduction it is....no blind faith...just logic
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on November 10, 2015, 09:09:42 PM
it really is quite simple...if the parents are innocent....abduction is odds on favourite...for lots and lots of reasons...I think they are...so abduction it is....no blind faith...just logic
The crime is unknown, perpertrator unknown.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 10, 2015, 10:32:40 PM
why do you ridicule the notion of abduction in this case?
I was questioning the notion that one can go from an odds on racing cert person as the abductor to "oh well it wasn't that one it must have been another one" all in the space of 24 hours, as though a tiny holiday resort was crawling with child abductors, and still maintain credibility. Six years the keystone of the arch and then it fell out ..............well you know the story as well as I do.
A child vanished into thin air eight years ago. There are a few possibilities for that disappearance, abduction being one of them but it was not seemingly by the man Jane Tanner said it was. As the case is neither resolved nor closed then the cause remains unknown to us proles. For all the postulations that somethings have been ruled out, that is mere supposition until a proper up to date announcement by someone in authority is made. Otherwise who knows for sure? The much vaunted Redwood quote is from twelve months prior to his greasing of Tannerman.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 10, 2015, 10:46:32 PM
I was questioning the notion that one can go from an odds on racing cert person as the abductor to "oh well it wasn't that one it must have been another one" all in the space of 24 hours, as though a tiny holiday resort was crawling with child abductors, and still maintain credibility. Six years the keystone of the arch and then it fell out ..............well you know the story as well as I do.
A child vanished into thin air eight years ago. There are a few possibilities for that disappearance, abduction being one of them but it was not seemingly by the man Jane Tanner said it was. As the case is neither resolved nor closed then the cause remains unknown to us proles. For all the postulations that somethings have been ruled out, that is mere supposition until a proper up to date announcement by someone in authority is made. Otherwise who knows for sure? The much vaunted Redwood quote is from twelve months prior to his greasing of Tannerman.
you weren't questioning anything, you were ridiculing. As abduction remains a real possibility and appears still to be the main focus of enquiry from everything we know about Operation Grange to date, your ridicule strikes me as somewhat inappropriate. No one, to my knowledge has ever claimed that Tannerman was 100% certainly the abductor but it would have been perfectly reasonable to suspect that he might have been, given the circumstances. If the Met subsequently discovered the ID of this man and were able to rule him out then naturally other leads will assume greater focus, there is nothing ridiculous about that, try as you might to find something about it to scoff at.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on November 10, 2015, 10:50:58 PM
I was questioning the notion that one can go from an odds on racing cert person as the abductor to "oh well it wasn't that one it must have been another one" all in the space of 24 hours, as though a tiny holiday resort was crawling with child abductors, and still maintain credibility. Six years the keystone of the arch and then it fell out ..............well you know the story as well as I do.
A child vanished into thin air eight years ago. There are a few possibilities for that disappearance, abduction being one of them but it was not seemingly by the man Jane Tanner said it was. As the case is neither resolved nor closed then the cause remains unknown to us proles. For all the postulations that somethings have been ruled out, that is mere supposition until a proper up to date announcement by someone in authority is made. Otherwise who knows for sure? The much vaunted Redwood quote is from twelve months prior to his greasing of Tannerman.
realistically it is a racing cert...if the parents have been ruled out which as far as I understand they have
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on November 17, 2015, 07:56:59 AM
realistically it is a racing cert...if the parents have been ruled out which as far as I understand they have
A racing cert ?
Really ?
This one fell at the first hurdle.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 20, 2015, 01:12:35 PM
Disappearance of Eloise Worledge
Eloise Anne Worledge (8 October 1967 – disappeared 12 January 1976) is a missing person, who as an eight-year-old girl was abducted from her home in Beaumaris, Victoria, Australia.
Abduction[edit] Her brother raised the alarm about her disappearance when he noticed she was not in her room at 7.30am. He later told police he heard "robbers" who kidnapped his sister, but was too scared to say anything at the time because he thought they would take him too. There was no sign of a struggle. Police believed that Eloise was lured from her bed by someone whom she knew and trusted and simply left the house via the front door, which had been left unlocked. Another possibility not discounted was that Worledge may have been abducted by a prowler known to be in the area at the time.
A dark green car speeding down Scott Street at 2am was reported by a neighbour. Bark from a tree outside her window was found on her bedroom floor. A small hole had been cut in the flyscreen in her window, but forensic tests revealed it had been cut from the inside. Police believed it was too small to have been used by the abductor, and scientific evidence found it unlikely that Eloise was taken through her open bedroom window. Both parents were initially treated as suspects.[1]
Investigation[edit] Despite one of the biggest searches in Victoria's history and a $10,000 reward posted in 1976 that remains unclaimed, no trace of her has ever been found. Homicide cold case detectives also reinvestigated the case in 2001, to no avail.[2]
She was the little girl from Beaumaris who was taken from what should have been the safety of her bed in the middle of the night.......................A torn flywire screen and an open window were the main clues in a crime..............Eloise was their first child, born on October 8, 1967. She was followed by Anna two years later and Blake in 1971................By the time Eloise was born, the couple had settled into a four-bedroom weatherboard home in Scott Street on the corner of Gibbs Street, about 500 metres from popular Beaumaris beach.
Eloise Anne Worledge (8 October 1967 – disappeared 12 January 1976) is a missing person, who as an eight-year-old girl was abducted from her home in Beaumaris, Victoria, Australia.
Abduction[edit] Her brother raised the alarm about her disappearance when he noticed she was not in her room at 7.30am. He later told police he heard "robbers" who kidnapped his sister, but was too scared to say anything at the time because he thought they would take him too. There was no sign of a struggle. Police believed that Eloise was lured from her bed by someone whom she knew and trusted and simply left the house via the front door, which had been left unlocked. Another possibility not discounted was that Worledge may have been abducted by a prowler known to be in the area at the time.
A dark green car speeding down Scott Street at 2am was reported by a neighbour. Bark from a tree outside her window was found on her bedroom floor. A small hole had been cut in the flyscreen in her window, but forensic tests revealed it had been cut from the inside. Police believed it was too small to have been used by the abductor, and scientific evidence found it unlikely that Eloise was taken through her open bedroom window. Both parents were initially treated as suspects.[1]
Investigation[edit] Despite one of the biggest searches in Victoria's history and a $10,000 reward posted in 1976 that remains unclaimed, no trace of her has ever been found. Homicide cold case detectives also reinvestigated the case in 2001, to no avail.[2]
She was the little girl from Beaumaris who was taken from what should have been the safety of her bed in the middle of the night.......................A torn flywire screen and an open window were the main clues in a crime..............Eloise was their first child, born on October 8, 1967. She was followed by Anna two years later and Blake in 1971................By the time Eloise was born, the couple had settled into a four-bedroom weatherboard home in Scott Street on the corner of Gibbs Street, about 500 metres from popular Beaumaris beach.
**Snip The father of Eloise Worledge, the eight-year-old girl abducted from her Beaumaris home 27 years ago, has taken a police lie detector test to dispel rumours that he was involved in her disappearance.
Lindsay Worledge took the test after police reopened the case, but the polygraph findings were inconclusive. "It did not produce a result which would satisfy police curiosity," Mr Worldege, a retired business consultant, told The Age.
A Melbourne coroner, Frank Hender, will be told on Monday that vital crime scene evidence and police records into the case have been lost and that this has hampered detectives' new investigation.
Among the missing documents were the original police interviews with Mr Worledge.
Eloise Worledge was found missing from her bed in Scott Street on January 13, 1976. Her parents were in the process of separating and Mr Worledge had agreed to move out of the family home. He was due to sign a rental lease on a residential property in Carnegie on the day Eloise disappeared.
The wind-out window in her bedroom was found open, the flywire screen cut, and tanbark from the garden was found on the floor of her room. But police believe she was probably taken through the unlocked front door and that the screen may have been cut to mislead police.
Despite a search by 250 police, a reward offer, a taskforce investigation and repeated pleas to the public, no trace of her has been found.
The coroner will be told that years after the abduction police found that two child molesters may have had links to Eloise. One worked at a local shop used by the Worledges while the second was connected to a Beaumaris drama group frequented by the family.
Two years ago police launched a fresh investigation into the case. Detectives have concluded that she is dead, but have been unable to identify her abductor.
One of the original investigators, former detective senior sergeant Jan Lierse, said police were never able to establish what happened to Eloise. "We are no further advanced now than... when she was first reported missing about 7.30 in the morning. I have no suspects whatsoever." http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/04/1057179159271.html
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 21, 2015, 03:50:52 PM
Interesting reading here with pdf download wowee! http://www.investigativesciencesjournal.org/article/view/12845/8567
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: lordpookles on November 22, 2015, 10:13:43 AM
Interesting reading here with pdf download wowee! http://www.investigativesciencesjournal.org/article/view/12845/8567
Interesting read Alice!
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: lordpookles on November 22, 2015, 11:33:00 AM
This being the most relevant section I suppose from Alice's link:
Ad Hoc Primary Staged Scenes An Ad Hoc staged crime scene is basically what the name implies; it is an intentional effort to misdirect the police, undertaken or completed by the offender, but without forethought and preplanning. In other words, the staging takes place “after the fact” of some crime or event. There are a couple of basic differences between this type of staged crime scene and the others covered later in this article. The main difference with Ad Hoc scenes is the clear lack of “premeditation” or prior planning and the impulsivity involved in the “staging,” or actual alteration of the scene. An Ad Hoc staged crime scene would typically result from efforts of the offender to cover up criminal acts, omissions, or negligent activity by staging the scene to provide an alternateexplanation as to what really happened. Therefore, the altered or changed physical evidence and subsequent statements or explanations offered by the offender is almost always related to some type of self-preservation effort to divert police attention away from themselves and onto someone or something else.
Often these types of staged scenes do not necessarily reflect added evidence, as much as it reflects missing evidence, and/or an otherwise altered scene. Examples of common Ad Hoc staging efforts would include child abuse deaths wherein the offender suddenly and thoroughly clean the residence; temporary removal of other children prior to police arrival; or the victim is bathed, redressed, or repositioned in bed to alter the way the scene and the child would be seen by the authorities. In cases such as drug abuse deaths, the scene might be cleaned up and all illegal substances removed. The victim may then be repositioned to resemble an accidental or natural type death, such as an accidental drowning in a bathtub. On more than one occasion a female victim was removed from the scene, undressed and left out in public and posed in a sexualized manner to resemble a sexual homicide. One of the better examples of an Ad Hoc type staged crime scene is illustrated in the following case example:
Case Study #1 A frantic young couple reported that on the previous evening person(s) unknown entered their apartment and kidnapped their four month old baby from her bedroom. The parents claimed that the father was away working a double shift and the mother had put the child to bed around 9 PM the night the child was kidnapped. When the mother woke up in the morning, she discovered the child missing with the front door closed but unlocked. She immediately called her husband who came right home and called the police. The parents claimed to have no idea what happened to their child and could not think of any potential suspects. The kidnapping report initiated an immediate response from all of the local police agencies. A detailed crime scene search was initiated, but no signs of forced entry or other physical evidence consistent with the parent’s claim were discovered. During the background investigation of the family, relatives and friends reported that the wife was not known to keep a very clean house and there was actual concern about the general welfare of all of their children. Yet, the house at the time of the scene processing was orderly, neat, and clearly had been recently cleaned. The mother’s statements to police claimed of spending the previous days engaged in normal family activity and portrayed herself as a normal and caring parent. However, this was not the general feeling of friends and neighbors, who portrayed the mother as neglectful and inattentive to all of her children. Eventually the parents were confronted with the conflicting information and the mother confessed that the child actually died from neglect. The mother had been on the computer almost nonstop for almost an entire week and had never checked on the child. Most likely it had literally starved to death, while the mother played on the internet. She discovered the child dead in her crib the previous evening and called her husband who managed to sneak away from his job and returned home. He took the child, wrapped it in a blanket, and then took the child to an open rural area and threw the child’s body into a nearby pond where it was later recovered. The husband and wife later plead guilty to various offenses regarding the death and disposal of their daughter.
In the above cited case example, as with many other Ad Hoc type staged scenes, the mother had no real intention to murder their child. But, once she made the discovery she had no idea how to explain the child’s death. Rather than admitting to any wrongdoing, the mother and father impulsively formulated an “ad hoc” plan to explain the child’s disappearance and demise. While the husband took control of the child’s body, the wife went through and completely cleaned their house from top to bottom. Their decision was an attempt to deflect attention onto an unknown intruder and thus escape or deflect any suspicion, blame and responsibility for their actions. Rather than being forced to provide any details, information, or explanation as to what happened, they claimed no knowledge as to the exact circumstances surrounding the event. By maintaining that the mother was asleep and the father wasn’t home, they believed they created an easily manageable explanation of events. The “complainant’s” lack of knowledge or inability to remember what exactly happened is a frequent finding in these types of events because it is easier for the guilty party to maintain their story if they don’t have to recount any details. However, because the explanation of events are basically created "on the run" and not planned out in any great detail, inconsistencies are usually much easier for investigators to recognize and uncover. One of the key features of this type of staged scene is the nature of the description of events and the “evidence” left behind or presented to the investigators at the scene. Interestingly, there seems to be an overwhelming need for the offender who stages an "Ad Hoc" scene to paint themselves in the most positive manner by pointing out how responsible they were, what precautions they may have taken to prevent such accidents, or express frustration at the event taking place when they were not around to do something to prevent the occurrence. For those offenders who do place themselves at the scene at the time of the incident, it is not unusual for them to claim a vigorous but unsuccessful physical resistance against an unknown attacker, but was somehow overpowered or injured and could not resist any further.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 22, 2015, 12:37:09 PM
Yes a very good read, I have read a lot of this before from a blog.
This is particularly interesting:
"This being the most relevant section I suppose from Alice's link:
Ad Hoc Primary Staged Scenes An Ad Hoc staged crime scene is basically what the name implies; it is an intentional effort to misdirect the police, undertaken or completed by the offender, but without forethought and preplanning. In other words, the staging takes place “after the fact” of some crime or event. There are a couple of basic differences between this type of staged crime scene and the others covered later in this article. The main difference with Ad Hoc scenes is the clear lack of “premeditation” or prior planning and the impulsivity involved in the “staging,” or actual alteration of the scene. An Ad Hoc staged crime scene would typically result from efforts of the offender to cover up criminal acts, omissions, or negligent activity by staging the scene to provide an alternateexplanation as to what really happened. Therefore, the altered or changed physical evidence and subsequent statements or explanations offered by the offender is almost always related to some type of self-preservation effort to divert police attention away from themselves and onto someone or something else.
Often these types of staged scenes do not necessarily reflect added evidence, as much as it reflects missing evidence, and/or an otherwise altered scene. Examples of common Ad Hoc staging efforts would include child abuse deaths wherein the offender suddenly and thoroughly clean the residence; temporary removal of other children prior to police arrival; or the victim is bathed, redressed, or repositioned in bed to alter the way the scene and the child would be seen by the authorities. In cases such as drug abuse deaths, the scene might be cleaned up and all illegal substances removed. The victim may then be repositioned to resemble an accidental or natural type death, such as an accidental drowning in a bathtub. On more than one occasion a female victim was removed from the scene, undressed and left out in public and posed in a sexualized manner to resemble a sexual homicide."
It is with this thinking [ moderated ] Kate finding Maddie missing- the drama of running to announce it- the placement of a door making her suspicious? ( open- ajar etc) jemmied shutters- whooshing sounds to alert her to look again at Maddie- kids not waking up. Denouncing instantly that Maddie could have walked and wandered-insisting Maddie has BEEN ABDUCTED and has come to no harm (like, really)? playing on words about 'checking' the children. The children were not physically checked. There seemed to be a delay in getting the point across that the children were left alone every night while parents enjoyed a meal with drinks. This was passed off as 'like sitting in your back garden /everybody does it'.
Then the strange behaviour of the parents.
I am not claiming to know the reasons why [moderated] but I suspected at the time it, when all other information became known, that it was to protect their reputation and to prevent being charged with child abandonment- to save face etc. Other people have different suspicions. If only the McCanns hadn't claimed abduction at the beginning and accepted that Maddie could have walked and wandered- it could have worked out so differently.
Perhaps other peoples suspicions of a more sinister take have some kind of truth in it?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on November 22, 2015, 06:00:19 PM
Former babysitter, 21, charged with abducting two-year-old girl from her bed in the middle of the night before dumping her on the roadside naked and covered in cigarette burns with a shaved head Lyndon Albers, two, was last seen by her parents around 3am at home in Hamilton, Massachusetts, and reported missing at 7am
A couple driving to work found her eight miles away sitting in a pile of leaves in Rowley just before 10am She was reunited with her parents in the hospital and is in a fair condition Abigail Hanna, 21, has been arrested and charged with abducting the child Hanna was Lyndon's babysitter until her parents fired her, sources said
By KHALEDA RAHMAN and ANNETA KONSTANTINIDES FOR DAILYMAIL.COM PUBLISHED: 12:16, 21 November 2015 | UPDATED: 15:19, 22 November 2015
Police have charged the former babysitter of a two-year-old girl who vanished from her Massachusetts home in the middle of the night and was found naked and injured eight miles away.
Lyndon Albers was discovered on the side of the road in Rowley by a couple driving to work just before 10am on Friday - three hours after she was reported missing.
She had cigarette burns on her body and her head had been shaved.
Abigail Hanna, of Topsfield, was arrested and is being held without bail, Hamilton police said. She was charged with kidnapping, assault and battery by means of a dangerous weapon, assault and battery on a child and breaking and entering. (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/11/21/12/2EA65C3900000578-3328279-Lyndon_pictured_before_her_disappearance_was_reported_missing_at-a-1_1448108128135.jpg) Lyndon (pictured, before her disappearance) was last seen by her parents at home at around 3am and then reported missing at 7am on Friday
According to her Facebook profile, Hanna is from Boston but lives in Topsfield. She previously lived in London.
She is listed as studying English Literature at Gordon College in Massachusetts and is apparently a counseler there.
She also says she has studied at the Azusa Pacific University in California as well as The Master's School in Connecticut. Her profile also lists that she got engaged to Nathan Wolters earlier this month.
Hanna's father, Laurie, is listed on Facebook as a teacher at Stafford Springs Elementary in Connecticut.
After her arrest, Hamilton Police Chief Russell Stevens said the evidence indicates that the abduction was not a random crime.
He added that further details are not being released to 'protect the integrity of the ongoing investigation'. Sources told WHDH that the family had trusted the babysitter at one point, but had recently fired her.
Lyndon's parents Tim and Joanie told police they last saw her at around 3am at their home in Hamilton, Massachusetts. They reported her missing at 7am.
According to necn, an Amber Alert was in the process of being issued before Lyndon was found.
She was shivering from the cold and sitting in a pile of leaves with a bruise on her newly shaved head when she was spotted by Tom and Marge Crosby, who were driving to their boutique in Amesbury at the time.
Tom Crosby said it was a 'vision; that compelled him to turn his car around after spotting the child in the road.
'I don’t want to say a vision but that’s what it was — a vision,' he told the Boston Herald. 'I drove by and then quickly it flashed through my head. I said ‘Was that a baby or was it a doll?’'
The couple bundled the child into their car and gave her a blanket as they waited for police.
'She was alert but had a big contusion on her head,' his wife Marge added to WHDH. Lyndon was reunited with her parents at Beverly Hospital and has since been transferred to Boston Children's Hospital, where she is listed as being in a fair condition.
On Friday, Chief Stevens could not confirm if Lyndon left the home on her own accord or if she was taken.
'We're trying to put the pieces together right now,' he said at a news conference.
'It's like a jigsaw puzzle and a bunch of the pieces are missing.'
Police executed a search warrant at Lyndon's home on Friday and said they were treating it as a crime scene until they knew more information.
Stevens also said there was no threat to the public. 'If I thought parents should be concerned, I would be the first one standing if front of this microphone and your cameras telling them to be concerned,' he said. 'So right now I would say no, you do not need to be concerned.'
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 22, 2015, 11:56:55 PM
Then came Oct. 3, a day on which several odd things happened. Irwin, who works at a friend's electrical company during the day, had a side job remodeling the lighting in a nearby Starbucks that evening. He spent time with his family between shifts, then drove to work around 5:30 p.m. "I told Deborah I should be home by 10 or so," he says. But the job was trickier than expected, and he didn't leave the Starbucks until after 3:00 a.m. And because they hadn't paid their cell phone bill and their service had been restricted, Irwin wasn't able to let Bradley know when he'd be home. Bradley says she was never worried because "I knew he was at work." Still, it was the first time Irwin had ever worked that late at night.
FBI cadaver dog sniffed scent of dead body at home of missing Missouri baby Lisa Irwin Friday, October 21, 2011
An FBI cadaver dog sniffed out the scent of a dead person inside the Kansas City home of missing 11-month-old Lisa Irwin, The Associated Press reported Friday.
The interesting development in the puzzling Oct. 4 disappearance of the little girl came to light in a police affidavit released Friday.
The baby girl's parents, Jeremy Irwin and Deborah Bradley, told police when they reported her disappearance that someone must have broken into their home as they slept and kidnapped the child.
A police official told a local TV station that the missing baby's parents have refused to meet with detectives and get a grilling.
The cadaver dog detected a scent - or a "hit" - on the floor of Bradley's bedroom, according to the affidavit.
Based on the findings, a judge granted a search warrant, and the FBI combed through the family's home on Wednesday, according to the court papers.
Investigators carted off blankets, children's toys and clothing, along with rolls of tape and a tape dispenser, the court papers say.
Police refused to dish about what the search turned up.
"We aren't able to talk about specifics of the case," Kansas City Police Department spokeswoman Stacey Graves said, according to The AP. "The documents that were made public will have to stand on their own."
Also Friday, tantalizing information surfaced about neighbors who saw suspicious activity in the same neighborhood on the cold early morning when the baby vanished.
Three people told ABC's "Good Morning America" they saw a man walking in the neighborhood, carrying a child wearing only a diaper.
One of the potential witnesses, Mike Thompson, told the TV program that he was riding home on his motorcycle about 4 a.m. when he saw a man, clad in a T-shirt, holding a baby as he walked on a block near where Lisa's parents live.
Thompson said the baby was wearing only diapers, and that in retrospect he believes the child resembled Lisa.
He said it was "45 degrees, \[the\] baby don't have a coat or nothing, and this guy is walking down the street ... I thought it was kind of weird."
The other two potential witnesses, a couple that lives down the street from the baby's home, reported seeing a similar sight a few hours earlier.
"It was shocking because I couldn't imagine anyone walking with their baby in the cold like that with no clothes on," one of the neighbors told ABC.
Thompson said he waited about a week to tell cops what he had seen because he didn't immediately make the possible connection between the child-toting man and Lisa's disappearance.
Police said they were aware of the sightings.
"That is something that we've followed up on," Graves told ABC. Graves added that investigators "haven't discounted it, and we have no reason to believe that they didn't see what they said that they saw."
The AP reported cops have cleared nearly 700 tips in the case, and are currently pursuing about 60 out-of-state leads.
Meanwhile, a so-called close friend of the missing baby's mother told The Huffington Post that Bradley had a dark side.
"She was my friend at one time and I loved to be around her, but when I \[saw\] the other side of her and got to know the true Debbie, I couldn't even believe I trusted her with anything," Shirley Pfaff told the website.
She said she met Bradley when they were military wives and neighbors at Fort Bragg.
Bradley has sparred with police since her daughter went missing, charging them with treating her unfairly in accusing her of being uncooperative and changing her story.
Pfaff said that doesn't surprise her.
"When the story broke, it was a normal morning in my house," Pfaff said. "I got up, put on a pot of coffee and turned on 'Good Morning America' like usual, and I ... heard 'Deborah Bradley.' I immediately thought: "This can't be the Debbie I know.'"
"It just seemed unreal until I walked back into the living room after hearing her voice \[on TV\]. I just about collapsed. It just made me sick because I just wouldn't put this girl Debbie past \[doing\] anything crazy."
Lisa in bed at 7:30 p.m. Debbie in bed at 10:30 after checking on Lisa. 6 year old son slept with Debbie in parents room. Point of entry by abductor was unlocked front door, window mentioned earlier was NOT tampered with. Irwin, an electrician, said he returned from work around 4 a.m. Tuesday and discovered Lisa was missing. Bradley said she last checked on the child around 10:30 p.m., then fell asleep in her bed with her 6-year-old son and a stray kitten they found earlier in the day.
Tuesday October 4, 2011 3:30 a.m. (first report stated it was 4:00 a.m.) Father returns home from work and discovered baby missing from crib. http://www.ky3.com/news/ky3-100-offi...,3181219.story
UPDATE 10-6-11 3 cell phones also taken. One does not even work. Also, dad came home to find front door unlocked, most of the lights on and front window open.
Jeremy Irwin, Lisa’s father, told local media that whoever took his daughter also took all three of their cell phones so they couldn’t call anybody, including 911.
Other two sons asleep in different bedrooms. (sons are half brothers to Lisa-the 6 year old is Debbie’s and the 8 year old is Jeremy’s from previous relationships.)—Correction. One son—the 6 year old was asleep with the mom and a stray kitten he had found earlier in the day.
Monday October 3, 2011 10:00 p.m. Last seen in crib wearing purple shorts and purple shirt with white kittens on it.
**Possibly seen by Mr. Parscale (a man that lives in the area) according to his wife Lisa around 12:00 a.m. Tuesday wearing only a diaper being carried by a male. Quote from Lisa--“He seen the guy act like he was going to go into a residence,” Parscale said, “but then my husband drove off so we’re thinking that maybe he was just doing that so that my husband would leave.”
**Parscale says her husband saw the man walking on a street perpendicular to North Lister, where Lisa Irwin lives with her parents and brothers.
Tuesday October 4, 2011 3:30 a.m. (first report stated it was 4:00 a.m.) Father returns home from work and discovered baby missing from crib. Father calls 911 around 4:04 a.m.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ShiningInLuz on November 24, 2015, 04:56:01 PM
Madeleine v the paedophile brain
The possibility that Madeleine was snatched by a paedophile cannot be overlooked.
Trying to assess the actual likelihood of this is like entering a legal minefield.
Fortunately, BBC2 is running a programme tonight, 24 Nov 2015, at 10pm, entitled “The Truth About Child Sex Abuse.”
The programme is NOT about Madeleine McCann, and frankly, I doubt her name will be mentioned.
But if you want to see why the programme IS relevant to the Madeleine case, please read http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34858350 Are paedophiles brains wired differently?
I suspect we will haggling over statements, facts and figures from this. I have no ability to record this, therefore anyone who captures this will be doing us all a favour.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on November 27, 2015, 08:39:59 PM
Fascinating program on Channel 5 right now.
Police Interceptors:Dog Squad.
Training and use of dogs.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on November 27, 2015, 08:40:50 PM
Yes Davel,,and the phrase - "watching out especially for when children are ........." no way is that relevant or anything like that.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on December 01, 2015, 08:45:12 AM
I didn't know that sedating of children during travel was so commonplace among middle-class parents. As this one says, how else can you relax and have a 'calming snifter'? For her, it's just common sense to drug the kids so everyone can have a bit of peace.
I didn't know that sedating of children during travel was so commonplace among middle-class parents. As this one says, how else can you relax and have a 'calming snifter'? For her, it's just common sense to drug the kids so everyone can have a bit of peace.
I didn't know that sedating of children during travel was so commonplace among middle-class parents. As this one says, how else can you relax and have a 'calming snifter'? For her, it's just common sense to drug the kids so everyone can have a bit of peace.
The McCanns took calpol with them on holiday but didn't use it ....
Apparently, and according to Faithlilly, the McCanns in their positions as doctors and ex-anaesthetists had access to some sedatives that would presumably knock Piriton and Calpol into a cocked hat (though she declined to name these sedatives or how they would be administered).
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on December 01, 2015, 09:26:28 AM
I could empathise will her desperation with a screaming baby, but I don't understand why anyone thinks sedating children of 8, 6 and 4 is reasonable.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 09:28:25 AM
As we weren't there or didn't know what the McCanns did that apparently gives some people carte blanche to speculate about all manner of things. Maybe it was Piriton, or maybe it was Calpol or maybe it was a powerful opiate, it was bound to be something though, wasn't it? They must have done something sinister like drug their kids cos as we know, some doctors are Amaral and some are downright evil, right?
ETA: FFS - now I can';t even write the word a m o r a l without the good doctor himself popping up - hilarious!
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: slartibartfast on December 01, 2015, 09:30:05 AM
What has this got to do with the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?
There were rumours that the McCann children had been sedated. These middle-class Mum's medicine of choice seems to be anti-histamines. Could the children have had access to an anti-hitstamine?
and an anti-histamine called Terfenadine for hay fever. He did not give any of these medicines or any others to the children while on holiday in Portugal. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on December 01, 2015, 09:52:26 AM
A forum that ruthlessly suppresses discussion of the shenanigans of a certain, free-lance, dog handler, allows libellous crap such as that by G-Unit at 0934 ...
How come? Unattended children taking medicines happens.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lace on December 01, 2015, 10:18:58 AM
There were rumours that the McCann children had been sedated. These middle-class Mum's medicine of choice seems to be anti-histamines. Could the children have had access to an anti-hitstamine?
and an anti-histamine called Terfenadine for hay fever. He did not give any of these medicines or any others to the children while on holiday in Portugal. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
There were RUMOURS and we know who started the rumours don't we, Amaral that's who.
Kate's father said all he had ever seen Gerry and Kate give Madeleine was Calpol, this was taken out of context that they give Calpol to the children to help them sleep. Calpol does not help children sleep it is a pain relief medicine.
The Calpol that Amaral was talking about wasn't even on the market in May 2007.
Amaral took what Kate's Dad said and the fact that the McCann's had taken Calpol with them on holiday as lots of other Mum's do [me included] to concoct a story that Madeleine was 'sedated' on Calpol [Calpol is not a sedative] and that Madeleine woke groggy and fell off the sofa.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 10:20:05 AM
How come? Unattended children taking medicines happens.
You were implying that "middle-class mums" habitually deliberately sedate their kids, now you are talking about accidents - which is it, or doesn't it really matter to you, as long as you are implying something nefarious?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lace on December 01, 2015, 10:20:25 AM
There were rumours that the McCann children had been sedated. These middle-class Mum's medicine of choice seems to be anti-histamines. Could the children have had access to an anti-hitstamine?
and an anti-histamine called Terfenadine for hay fever. He did not give any of these medicines or any others to the children while on holiday in Portugal. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
Ahh yes - ''rumours''. Every 'Wishful Thinker's' best friend IMO.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on December 01, 2015, 10:30:22 AM
There were RUMOURS and we know who started the rumours don't we, Amaral that's who.
Kate's father said all he had ever seen Gerry and Kate give Madeleine was Calpol, this was taken out of context that they give Calpol to the children to help them sleep. Calpol does not help children sleep it is a pain relief medicine.
The Calpol that Amaral was talking about wasn't even on the market in May 2007.
Amaral took what Kate's Dad said and the fact that the McCann's had taken Calpol with them on holiday as lots of other Mum's do [me included] to concoct a story that Madeleine was 'sedated' on Calpol [Calpol is not a sedative] and that Madeleine woke groggy and fell off the sofa.
Kate suspected on the evening of 3rd May;
Kate McCann said the kidnapper who seized Madeleine may also have drugged her other two children, as she launched a new appeal in the hunt for her missing girl today. Mrs McCann said she had to check that twins Sean and Amelie were still breathing because they did not wake as they began a frantic search for the missing three-year-old.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386093/Kate-McCann-Kidnapper-drugged-twins-night-Madeleine-taken.html#ixzz3t411Fy64 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 01, 2015, 10:30:59 AM
You were implying that "middle-class mums" habitually deliberately sedate their kids, now you are talking about accidents - which is it, or doesn't it really matter to you, as long as you are implying something nefarious?
In the article linked it says: "This over-the-counter medicine contains promethazine, a sedating antihistamine. Usually administered on the advice of a GP to treat motion sickness or discomfort from certain allergies, it has become the secret weapon for many middle-class mothers embarking on long-haul flights".
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Benice on December 01, 2015, 10:37:11 AM
Kate McCann said the kidnapper who seized Madeleine may also have drugged her other two children, as she launched a new appeal in the hunt for her missing girl today. Mrs McCann said she had to check that twins Sean and Amelie were still breathing because they did not wake as they began a frantic search for the missing three-year-old.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386093/Kate-McCann-Kidnapper-drugged-twins-night-Madeleine-taken.html#ixzz3t411Fy64 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
But the question as to whether the intruder had used drugs on the children is not what you are referring to is it? Could you clarify please?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 10:40:14 AM
Apparently, she and hubby was too busy after what happened to do that.
..and her being an 'anesthetist'.
I think the fact that neither her nor her husband raised concerns about the non-responsive state of the twins is one of the biggest reg flags of the whole case.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 10:59:45 AM
I think the fact that neither her nor her husband raised concerns about the non-responsive state of the twins is one of the biggest reg flags of the whole case.
Indeed, it makes no sense.
Neither was leaving the other children to 'raise the alarm', since she thought the 'abductor' could still be around.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 11:01:23 AM
In the article linked it says: "This over-the-counter medicine contains promethazine, a sedating antihistamine. Usually administered on the advice of a GP to treat motion sickness or discomfort from certain allergies, it has become the secret weapon for many middle-class mothers embarking on long-haul flights".
I can read. Does the article quantify "many"?
Was Madeleine abducted whilst on a long-haul flight?
Just a couple of the questions I'm sure you'd be asking if the boot was on the other foot.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 11:03:14 AM
I think the fact that neither her nor her husband raised concerns about the non-responsive state of the twins is one of the biggest reg flags of the whole case.
Is that why the PJ cross-questioned both Kate and Gerry about this huge red flag during their arguido interviews?
Oh, wait...
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on December 01, 2015, 11:14:35 AM
In the article linked it says: "This over-the-counter medicine contains promethazine, a sedating antihistamine. Usually administered on the advice of a GP to treat motion sickness or discomfort from certain allergies, it has become the secret weapon for many middle-class mothers embarking on long-haul flights".
so unless these mothers are habitually flying long haul they are not habitually sedating their children.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lace on December 01, 2015, 11:38:56 AM
I think the fact that neither her nor her husband raised concerns about the non-responsive state of the twins is one of the biggest reg flags of the whole case.
Kate said in her book she asked the police for the twins to be checked for drugs on the night of the 3rd of May.
Oh I forgot, nothing Kate says is true is it?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 11:41:29 AM
Was Madeleine abducted whilst on a long-haul flight?
Just a couple of the questions I'm sure you'd be asking if the boot was on the other foot.
1 Many is many ie "a large number of" large is "considerable" so no many is neither quantified nor quantifiable in this instance if any instance. I guess were the number quantifiable the author would have said "n" rather than many. 2 No! (I am surprised you had to ask). 3 Probably depending on what else was going on.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lace on December 01, 2015, 11:50:08 AM
and what prevented them or the PJ having it done ?
How do you know anyone said anything? You don't know what was said, Kate said she asked on the night of the 3rd, whether the police thought to themselves 'what is she talking about, drugged? the child has wandered' they were treating it as a child who had wandered and got lost, so they probably didn't take any notice of an hysterical mother talking about her twins being drugged.
What DID prevent the PJ from having the children tested? I would assume all the information of the night would have been passed on, the twins not waking up, Madeleine not being found, the window open. You would think that the person in charge may have wondered if the twins had been drugged yet they didn't have them tested. Then three months later Amaral is accusing the McCann's of drugging Madeleine, unbelievable.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 01, 2015, 11:53:02 AM
How do you know anyone said anything? You don't know what was said, Kate said she asked on the night of the 3rd, whether the police thought to themselves 'what is she talking about, drugged? the child has wandered' they were treating it as a child who had wandered and got lost, so they probably didn't take any notice of an hysterical mother talking about her twins being drugged.
What DID prevent the PJ from having the children tested? I would assume all the information of the night would have been passed on, the twins not waking up, Madeleine not being found, the window open. You would think that the person in charge may have wondered if the twins had been drugged yet they didn't have them tested. Then three months later Amaral is accusing the McCann's of drugging Madeleine, unbelievable.
I'm blaming the mccanns and the PJ.
The mccanns as doctors should have insisted upon it.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on December 01, 2015, 12:09:21 PM
I think the fact that neither her nor her husband raised concerns about the non-responsive state of the twins is one of the biggest reg flags of the whole case.
I think your use of the words "red flag" tell us alot
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 12:12:56 PM
1 Many is many ie "a large number of" large is "considerable" so no many is neither quantified nor quantifiable in this instance if any instance. I guess were the number quantifiable the author would have said "n" rather than many. 2 No! (I am surprised you had to ask). 3 Probably depending on what else was going on.
So, to summarise - it's just of unsubstantiated, irrelevant hot air, but thanks for your contribution - priceless as always.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on December 01, 2015, 12:19:19 PM
Is that why the PJ cross-questioned both Kate and Gerry about this huge red flag during their arguido interviews?
Oh, wait...
They may have done if any of the witnesses had actually mentioned that there seemed to be some concern over the twins. I believe it wasn't mentioned by even Fiona Payne until the rogatory interviews.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ferryman on December 01, 2015, 12:35:23 PM
They may have done if any of the witnesses had actually mentioned that there seemed to be some concern over the twins. I believe it wasn't mentioned by even Fiona Payne until the rogatory interviews.
We know from the reports of liaison officers that (either Kate or Gerry, I can't remember which) enquired of the PJ whether sedatives might have been used in the abduction.
Quote
I am police officer Markley of the Leicestershire Police currently working in the criminal unit.
In 2007 and in relation to the Portuguese investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, I was detached to Portugal in the role of family communication officer.
According to the Portuguese PJ Letter of Request, I was asked to respond to the following question:
Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during your various meetings that could raise any suspicion that they had any knowledge about what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described to the Portuguese investigators?
My reply to the question was: No.
However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.
One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.
This statement was made by me and is truthful in accordance with my understanding.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 01, 2015, 12:39:53 PM
So, to summarise - it's just of unsubstantiated, irrelevant hot air, but thanks for your contribution - priceless as always.
I wouldn't know I was merely pointing out it was in the article linked rather than made up by G -Unit. I am sure you knew that anyway as you profess to have read the article. It makes one wonder about the point of your post in that case.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 12:45:04 PM
I wouldn't know I was merely pointing out it was in the article linked rather than made up by G -Unit. I am sure you knew that anyway as you profess to have read the article. It makes one wonder about the point of your post in that case.
Your reply had absolutely no relevance to the question I posed to G-Unit, but carry on trolling as it certainly seems to amuse you.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on December 01, 2015, 12:51:55 PM
Ahh yes - ''rumours''. Every 'Wishful Thinker's' best friend IMO.
Not nearly as good a best friend as "a source close to the investigation" ... but any port in a storm. Can you imagine trying to negotiate three comatose children through airports and flights complete with bags and baggage? ... absolutely preposterous!
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on December 01, 2015, 12:54:51 PM
Was it 'Mr. Swarthy Nasty Looking Pimply Man' ? 8)--))
Maybe Scotland Yard and the Porto team will make a better fist of tracking him down and asking him ... which would be so much more than the initial investigation did.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 12:56:51 PM
Maybe Scotland Yard and the Porto team will make a better fist of tracking him down and asking him ... which would be so much more than the initial investigation did.
Well they have not done that, have they ?
and if there never was one.................... &%+((Ł
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on December 01, 2015, 01:03:05 PM
We know from the reports of liaison officers that (either Kate or Gerry, I can't remember which) enquired of the PJ whether sedatives might have been used in the abduction.
What a pity that the liaison doesn't say whether he passed the questions on or what the answers were. Please note they didn't ask if sedatives had been used, they asked if there was any evidence that a substance had been used. The answer was probably that there was no evidence, because none was found.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 01:27:40 PM
We know from the reports of liaison officers that (either Kate or Gerry, I can't remember which) enquired of the PJ whether sedatives might have been used in the abduction.
Not sure how asking the British liaison officers a couple of days after their daughter's disappearance would have helped the twins on the 3rd if they had been sedated.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lace on December 01, 2015, 01:50:04 PM
Wasn't Madeleine's bed tested for sedation? If so then they did wonder if the twins had been drugged but didn't have them tested.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on December 01, 2015, 01:53:12 PM
After all, the mccanns weren't there when she disappeared, WERE THEY ?
The ... " 'Mr. Swarthy Nasty Looking Pimply Man' " to whom you refer appears to be a composite of some of the descriptions given by witnesses of men who they saw in the vicinity of the apartment from which Madeleine McCann was later abducted.
As far as I can see from the files ... none of them were traced and eliminated from the inquiry. That is an investigative failure which can be laid squarely at the door of the initial investigation.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on December 01, 2015, 01:53:53 PM
Wasn't Madeleine's bed tested for sedation? If so then they did wonder if the twins had been drugged but didn't have them tested.
Indeed it was.
The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 02:16:04 PM
The ... " 'Mr. Swarthy Nasty Looking Pimply Man' " to whom you refer appears to be a composite of some of the descriptions given by witnesses of men who they saw in the vicinity of the apartment from which Madeleine McCann was later abducted.
As far as I can see from the files ... none of them were traced and eliminated from the inquiry. That is an investigative failure which can be laid squarely at the door of the initial investigation.
Keep up with your fantasies of abduction and SY finding amy thing.
It will go nowhere.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on December 01, 2015, 02:16:24 PM
The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
Excellent. Thank you Brietta.
Still doesn't explain why the couple didn't voice their concern to the police officers present.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: slartibartfast on December 01, 2015, 02:46:11 PM
Not nearly as good a best friend as "a source close to the investigation" ... but any port in a storm. Can you imagine trying to negotiate three comatose children through airports and flights complete with bags and baggage? ... absolutely preposterous!
Don't worry about it, just ignore or enjoy, whichever suits
I'm not remotely worried, but nor am I going to ignore it or enjoy it either. What I will do is question its relevance and what is being implied by this discussion, I do hope that's OK with you.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on December 01, 2015, 03:35:11 PM
It's about sedation and childcare. Since various parties in the McCann case have suspected sedation, it seems worth discussion.
Was there ever any allegation from anyone that the McCann children may have been sedated in flight?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 03:36:50 PM
some people have suggested that the McCanns and their friends were swingers, indeed I think this possibility was investigated as part of the earlier police investigation. Would it be appropriate to the discussion if I started posting articles here concerning middle-class wife-swapping parties? Just want to be sure that it's OK before I start doing so.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on December 01, 2015, 03:37:43 PM
I'm not remotely worried, but nor am I going to ignore it or enjoy it either. What I will do is question its relevance and what is being implied by this discussion, I do hope that's OK with you.
Huh, some people are just hard to please @)(++(*
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 03:38:58 PM
It's also been mooted in some quarters that Gerry McCann may have been a Mason, and involved in some top secret goings on in the nuclear industry - may I post links to masons and the nuclear industry too, while I'm at it?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on December 01, 2015, 03:49:32 PM
I would prefer the one on swinging. I really would like to know if Mumsnet have a favoured position on this or whether anything goes with them and other people's dh
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 01, 2015, 03:52:05 PM
Them thar demons is more like Klingons
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 03:59:18 PM
I would prefer the one on swinging. I really would like to know if Mumsnet have a favoured position on this or whether anything goes with them and other peoples dh
OK, well I've googled swingers holidays to the Algarve but so far drawn a blank. Next time you're on Mumsnet perhaps you can get the sp on the favoured positions?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on December 01, 2015, 04:06:42 PM
OK, well I've googled swingers holidays to the Algarve but so far drawn a blank. Next time you're on Mumsnet perhaps you can get the sp on the favoured positions?
Now that is interesting, because back in 07/08, the first thing up was Google was Warners at PDL. Must have been suppressed
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on December 01, 2015, 04:08:20 PM
Try Algarve + swinging + holidays !!!
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 04:09:25 PM
OK, well I've googled swingers holidays to the Algarve but so far drawn a blank. Next time you're on Mumsnet perhaps you can get the sp on the favoured positions?
Top 2 are The Peg and The Visitor
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on December 01, 2015, 04:17:59 PM
Neither was leaving the other children to 'raise the alarm', since she thought the 'abductor' could still be around.
She couldn't have known, so to me it was an odd reaction when she knew "immediately/straight away" Madeleine had been taken, not knowing when, but left her two remaining kids on their own....that is a red flag for me. No "member of the supporter community" has ever responded to the crux of this question!
Kate Mccann was asked this question by Sandra Felgueiras, Gerry butted in and answered for her with somethng along the lines of they were trained to get immediate help....well....presumably that would not include potentially leaving others at risk at the same time
Correction: Kate Mccann did answer the question whlst not answering it really, then Gerry added his comments. Just about half a minute in here.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on December 01, 2015, 06:39:01 PM
Yes, she could have shouted from the balcony across to the Tapas restaurant, it was, after all, only like being at the bottom of the garden.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 06:43:17 PM
Yes, she could have shouted from the balcony across to the Tapas restaurant, it was, after all, only like being at the bottom of the garden.
Apart from that could have called out to any neighbour...Mrs Fenn, Jane Tanner, anyone at all within hearing distance...it just does not add up that you would "know" an abductor had struck and you would leave your other babies, even if for a minute or two.....cue the castigations of "hndsight is great" "was in a panic"...IMO parental protection in extreme circustances urge surpasses
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on December 01, 2015, 06:51:49 PM
Apart from that could have called out to any neighbour...Mrs Fenn, Jane Tanner, anyone at all within hearing distance...it just does not add up that you would "know" an abductor had struck and you would leave your other babies, even if for a minute or two.....cue the castigations of "hndsight is great" "was in a panic"...IMO parental protection in extreme circustances urge surpasses
I would have done exactly what Kate did, in those circumstances. 35 paces from the back gate to the Tapas entrance. I'd have wanted my husband there right away. JT was looking after a sick child & Mrs Fenn was 80ish.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on December 01, 2015, 07:00:24 PM
Or she could have just hollered out ( in the style of Cilla, rather than Margo ) "GERRY GET YOUR *RSE OVER HERE NOW." @)(++(*
Of course he might not have been able to hear her.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 07:01:57 PM
I would have done exactly what Kate did, in those circumstances. 35 paces from the back gate to the Tapas entrance. I'd have wanted my husband there right away. JT was looking after a sick child & Mrs Fenn was 80ish.
Why didn't she just shout from the balcony ?
After all, it was 'just like being in the back garden'.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 07:02:48 PM
I would have done exactly what Kate did, in those circumstances. 35 paces from the back gate to the Tapas entrance. I'd have wanted my husband there right away. JT was looking after a sick child & Mrs Fenn was 80ish.
Well, if any abductor(s) was/were was in mid operation with a plan to steal every child wouldnt matter if it were 10 paces! Oh, so bothering Jane or a neighbour deemed tooold (never mind other neighbours around) was considerate? Are you kidding me? Absolutely preposterous! I do not believe for a nanosecond you would do the same, neighbours or police are always first port of call, but of course, if you say so.....
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 01, 2015, 07:05:22 PM
Well, if any abductor(s) was/were was in mid operation with a plan to steal every child wouldnt matter if it were 10 paces! Oh, so bothering Jane or a neighbour deemed tooold (never mind other neighbours around) was considerate? Are you kidding me? Absolutely preposterous! I do not believe for a nanosecond you would do the same, neighbours or police are always first port of call, but of course, if you say so.....
Kate wasn't at home in familiar surroundings. By the time Kate had fumbled with the front door lock, knocked on Jane's door....then what?? Did Kate even know Mrs Fenn was in her home upstairs? Would Mrs Fenn have heard her shouting or even responded? Then what? As I said, if I was satisfied no abductor was still on the premises, I'd have done exactly what Kate did. Speed was of the essence.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 07:18:31 PM
Kate wasn't at home in familiar surroundings. By the time Kate had fumbled with the front door lock, knocked on Jane's door....then what?? Did Kate even know Mrs Fenn was in her home upstairs? Would Mrs Fenn have heard her shouting or even responded? Then what? As I said, if I was satisfied no abductor was still on the premises, I'd have done exactly what Kate did. Speed was of the essence.
and that is precisely why the apartment should have been locked.
She wasn't at home.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on December 01, 2015, 07:20:16 PM
So it wasn't like being in the back garden as the mccanns claimed. 8)-)))
and what about the staff at the complex ?
It depends on your back garden & the background noise at the time. The staff on duty in the restaurant were mostly Portuguese, weren't they? I wonder if they would have recognised a distress call in English?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 07:20:48 PM
Kate wasn't at home in familiar surroundings. By the time Kate had fumbled with the front door lock, knocked on Jane's door....then what?? Did Kate even know Mrs Fenn was in her home upstairs? Would Mrs Fenn have heard her shouting or even responded? Then what? As I said, if I was satisfied no abductor was still on the premises, I'd have done exactly what Kate did. Speed was of the essence.
Why complicate things Misty and btw did she check all around to ensure no one was lurking? No she did not. What are you talking about? The cry for help does not need any thnking through, you just shout the word continuously and someone will come....you dont LEAVE your remaining kids unprotected!
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on December 01, 2015, 07:25:53 PM
and that is precisely why the apartment should have been locked.
She wasn't at home.
Yes, it probably should have been locked. Leaving it unlocked cut down the checking time & distance by more than half. That was the positive.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 07:26:40 PM
Kate says she searched the apartment before leaving to raise the alarm, including cupboard doors and wardrobe, so she would have known that there was no intruder still lurking. She ran out towards the restaurant and started screaming as soon as she could see the table, at which point all but Dianne Webster sprung up and sprinted over to her, then ran back with her to the apartment.
What exactly is the problem with this?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on December 01, 2015, 07:27:25 PM
It depends on your back garden & the background noise at the time. The staff on duty in the restaurant were mostly Portuguese, weren't they? I wonder if they would have recognised a distress call in English?
One can just imagine the scene -
Tapas waiter to group " hey, you Gerry? Crazy woman over there (points across pool) she shout for Gerry. You Gerry? better go see what she want."
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 07:28:22 PM
Kate says she searched the apartment before leaving to raise the alarm, including cupboard doors and wardrobe, so she would have known that there was no intruder still lurking. She ran out towards the restaurant and started screaming as soon as she could see the table, at which point all but Dianne Webster sprung up and sprinted over to her, then ran back with her to the apartment.
What exactly is the problem with this?
People can lurk outside dwellngs as well as inside! You know, people are capable of hiding! Especially criminals!
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 07:50:36 PM
Well, if any abductor(s) was/were was in mid operation with a plan to steal every child wouldnt matter if it were 10 paces! Oh, so bothering Jane or a neighbour deemed tooold (never mind other neighbours around) was considerate? Are you kidding me? Absolutely preposterous! I do not believe for a nanosecond you would do the same, neighbours or police are always first port of call, but of course, if you say so.....
She got immediate reaction and immediate unquestioned help from the people sitting at the table. All young. All fit and athletic. All capable of covering the ground quickly, the women - with the exception of Jane Tanner - to help Kate and to check on their own children who were also alone.
In my opinion had she remained on the balcony screaming her head off that too would have been subject to criticism.
I don't know how I would have behaved in the same situation, but with the benefit of hindsight I consider her behaviour was entirely appropriate.
She had discovered that Madeleine was missing. She immediately searched the apartment. Madeleine wasn't there ~ neither was there evidence of a threatening adult in the vicinity. She immediately raised the alarm and got the search for her daughter started in the shortest possible time.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 07:54:31 PM
She got immediate reaction and immediate unquestioned help from the people sitting at the table. All young. All fit and athletic. All capable of covering the ground quickly, the women - with the exception of Jane Tanner - to help Kate and to check on their own children who were also alone.
In my opinion had she remained on the balcony screaming her head off that too would have been subject to criticism.
I don't know how I would have behaved in the same situation, but with the benefit of hindsight I consider her behaviour was entirely appropriate.
She had discovered that Madeleine was missing. She immediately searched the apartment. Madeleine wasn't there ~ neither was there evidence of a threatening adult in the vicinity. She immediately raised the alarm and got the search for her daughter started in the shortest possible time.
Absolute tosh, there could have been an immediate removal of her other kids and THAT is the point, there is no evidence there was no nearby threat so stop making thngs up,another risk KM took , =BIG red flag....you can attempt to spin this forever but you will always just be a dervish for it
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: jassi on December 01, 2015, 08:01:56 PM
Absolute tosh, there could have been an immediate removal of her other kids and THAT is the point, there is no evidence there was no nearby threat so stop making thngs up,another risk KM took , =BIG red flag....you can attempt to spin this forever but you will always just be a dervish for it
Once the apartment had been checked it probably took her seconds to alert the people sitting at the table. Common sense dictates that she took the most direct and immediate course of action to raise the alarm.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 08:06:18 PM
Once the apartment had been checked it probably took her seconds to alert the people sitting at the table. Common sense dictates that she took the most direct and immediate course of action to raise the alarm.
Immediate action.
Go to reception and call the police.
That is called logic.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 08:07:03 PM
Once the apartment had been checked it probably took her seconds to alert the people sitting at the table. Common sense dictates that she took the most direct and immediate course of action to raise the alarm.
You are conveniently IGNORING the point of abductors hiding nearby...why is that?
And the MOST immediate and direct action would have been screaming for help!! Whlst protecting her two remaining offspring!!!
Your responses have been poor.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 08:10:44 PM
Do you really imagine that having kidnapped a child the abductor was hanging around waiting ... for what exactly?
oh and by the way, do please take note that however goading your rhetoric ... I shall not be responding in kind, if I decide to respond at all.
Oh I see, the mother will have KNOWN child abductors /molesters/burglars/stop at one..and was positive ghey had long gone...cite???..so felt comfortable leaving them alone...dont be so bleedin daft and apologetic, its actually nauseating
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 08:19:02 PM
Oh I see, the mother will have KNOWN child abductors /molesters/burglars/stop at one....so felt comfortable leaving them alone...dont be so bleedin daft and apologetic, its actually nauseating
Hmmmm ... so abductors can be expected to hang around in the vicinity waiting to be discovered. I thought the motivator is usually to put as much distance between him/herself and the scene of the crime as possible.
But there you are ...
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on December 01, 2015, 08:27:33 PM
What a pity that the liaison doesn't say whether he passed the questions on or what the answers were. Please note they didn't ask if sedatives had been used, they asked if there was any evidence that a substance had been used. The answer was probably that there was no evidence, because none was found.
Faith Lilly ignorantly blustered that no witness mentioned concern about (possible!) use of sedatives in the abduction until the rogatory interviews.
I corrected Faith Lilly's ignorance.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 08:30:18 PM
Hmmmm ... so abductors can be expected to hang around in the vicinity waiting to be discovered. I thought the motivator is usually to put as much distance between him/herself and the scene of the crime as possible.
But there you are ...
What abductors ?
You have them on the brain.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 08:33:12 PM
Hmmmm ... so abductors can be expected to hang around in the vicinity waiting to be discovered. I thought the motivator is usually to put as much distance between him/herself and the scene of the crime as possible.
But there you are ...
Its not where I am but its exactly where alot of your cohorts and you are...the abductor was wondering from 9 15 to 10 pm ( ie tannerman and smithman were ONE and the same, either losing his way or waiting for a car that didnt turn up etc etc, carry on trying
The POINT was KM was NOT to know ANYTHNG but she LEFT her two babies ergo she must have been SURE there was no abductor...and there is only one way she could have been sure IMO ie there was none and she knew it
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 08:37:29 PM
How many children have you raised from birth to adulthood, Mercury?
None of your bloody business, pls keep to topic, but i would never take stupid pathetic decisions with their lives!! Ie if i was sure an abductor had struck. Hell, i would NOT leave them alone, end of......that is one big red flag reason why no abductor exists IMO
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on December 01, 2015, 08:51:33 PM
Its not where I am but its exactly where alot of your cohorts and you are...the abductor was wondering from 9 15 to 10 pm ( ie tannerman and smithman were ONE and the same, either losing his way or waiting for a car that didnt turn up etc etc, carry on trying
The POINT was KM was NOT to know ANYTHNG but she LEFT her two babies ergo she must have been SURE there was no abductor...and there is only one way she could have been sure IMO ie there was none and she knew it
By the time the abduction was discovered the abductor and Madeleine were either well hidden in the environs of Luz, well on the way to the Spanish border or well on their way on the seas.
Had they been hanging around the apartment I'm sure one of the search parties would have found them.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 01, 2015, 08:51:48 PM
None of your bloody business, pls keep to topic, but i would never take stupid pathetic decisions with their lives!! Ie if i was sure an abductor had struck. Hell, i would NOT leave them alone, end of......that is one big red flag reason why no abductor exists IMO
It has everything to do with it, Mercury. If you haven't had the responsibility, it is impossible to judge fairly what you would have done in a very difficult situation......like a 5 year old on a bike hurtling towards a park exit while the 3 year old learning to ride a bike is beside you & the nearest adult is many many yards away......
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 08:56:45 PM
By the time the abduction was discovered the abductor and Madeleine were either well hidden in the environs of Luz, well on the way to the Spanish border or well on their way on the seas.
Had they been hanging around the apartment I'm sure one of the search parties would have found them.
No, wrong again, you are USING Tannerman as the abductor at 9.15... This has ZILCH to do with the mother's immediate reaction, and NOTHING to do with search parties, carry on trying.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 08:57:00 PM
By the time the abduction was discovered the abductor and Madeleine were either well hidden in the environs of Luz, well on the way to the Spanish border or well on their way on the seas.
Had they been hanging around the apartment I'm sure one of the search parties would have found them.
By the time the abduction...... 8)-)))
and I am Captain James T. Kirk.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 09:03:11 PM
No, wrong again, you are USING Tannerman as the abductor at 9.15... This has ZILCH to do with the mother's immediate reaction, and NOTHING to do with search parties, carry on trying.
Had the abductor exited the apartment five minutes prior to Madeleine's absence being discovered what I have said remains the same.
The empty apartments in the immediate vicinity were not visited on the night, she could have been in any one. The occupied apartments in the immediate vicinity were not visited on the night, she could have been in any one.
Madeleine's mother's reaction ... which was not immediate ... she had checked the apartment for occupancy ... was in my opinion (I take it I still may have an opinion?) ... the speediest one in the circumstances.
There are ways of saying you disagree with that without resorting to goading or abuse ... if you have a valid argument which it appears you don't.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 09:50:16 PM
Had the abductor exited the apartment five minutes prior to Madeleine's absence being discovered what I have said remains the same.
The empty apartments in the immediate vicinity were not visited on the night, she could have been in any one. The occupied apartments in the immediate vicinity were not visited on the night, she could have been in any one.
Madeleine's mother's reaction ... which was not immediate ... she had checked the apartment for occupancy ... was in my opinion (I take it I still may have an opinion?) ... the speediest one in the circumstances.
There are ways of saying you disagree with that without resorting to goading or abuse ... if you have a valid argument which it appears you don't.
What abductor ?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on December 01, 2015, 09:52:03 PM
No, the mother had NO idea whatsoever and couldnt have done if an abductior was around, so my argument is solid yours is flakey, BIG RED FLAG......massive one....no spin can ever discredit this red flag... have to go, have fun trying to excuse every action
Hmmmm ... there are appropriate ways of presenting an argument which involves neither goading or abuse ... it seems you haven't quite mastered the technique.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 09:54:08 PM
Hmmmm ... there are appropriate ways of presenting an argument which involves neither goading or abuse ... it seems you haven't quite mastered the technique.
It would help you if you stuck to the facts
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 09:55:12 PM
Had the abductor exited the apartment five minutes prior to Madeleine's absence being discovered what I have said remains the same.
The empty apartments in the immediate vicinity were not visited on the night, she could have been in any one. The occupied apartments in the immediate vicinity were not visited on the night, she could have been in any one.
Madeleine's mother's reaction ... which was not immediate ... she had checked the apartment for occupancy ... was in my opinion (I take it I still may have an opinion?) ... the speediest one in the circumstances.
There are ways of saying you disagree with that without resorting to goading or abuse ... if you have a valid argument which it appears you don't.
Had the abductor exited the apartment five minutes prior to Madeleine's absence being discovered what I have said remains the same.
The empty apartments in the immediate vicinity were not visited on the night, she could have been in any one. The occupied apartments in the immediate vicinity were not visited on the night, she could have been in any one.
Madeleine's mother's reaction ... which was not immediate ... she had checked the apartment for occupancy ... was in my opinion (I take it I still may have an opinion?) ... the speediest one in the circumstances.
There are ways of saying you disagree with that without resorting to goading or abuse ... if you have a valid argument which it appears you don't.
No, the mother had NO idea whatsoever and couldnt have done if an abductior was around, so my argument is solid yours is flakey, BIG RED FLAG......massive one....no spin can ever discredit this red flag... have to go, have fun trying to excuse every action...and if kate mccnn feels she has a licence to throwing aspersions against nannies and cooks and others drugging madeleine we have licence to throw aspersions at her for the same!!!!
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on December 01, 2015, 09:55:54 PM
No, the mother had NO idea whatsoever and couldnt have done if an abductior was around, so my argument is solid yours is flakey, BIG RED FLAG......massive one....no spin can ever discredit this red flag... have to go, have fun trying to excuse every action
Precisely. The abductor(s) could have been next door in the Oldfield apartment attempting to take their daughter too, whilst Kate struggled to haul 2 sleepy 2 year olds out of travel cots, through doors, a safety gate, down a flight of steps, down a hill, in through the Tapas reception door and, all the while, Madeleine was also missing.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 09:58:56 PM
Precisely. The abductor(s) could have been next door in the Oldfield apartment attempting to take their daughter too, whilst Kate struggled to haul 2 sleepy 2 year olds out of travel cots, through doors, a safety gate, down a flight of steps, down a hill, in through the Tapas reception door and, all the while, Madeleine was also missing.
Which makes it all the more inportang that she did NOT leave her remaining kids to be ptentially abducted too, you are just not for real
See ya now my taxis here!!! Enjoy your dervish evening
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: slartibartfast on December 01, 2015, 10:13:19 PM
Precisely. The abductor(s) could have been next door in the Oldfield apartment attempting to take their daughter too, whilst Kate struggled to haul 2 sleepy 2 year olds out of travel cots, through doors, a safety gate, down a flight of steps, down a hill, in through the Tapas reception door and, all the while, Madeleine was also missing.
I think there seems to be general acceptance that the apartment was out of sight and out of hearing...?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 01, 2015, 10:23:37 PM
Had the abductor exited the apartment five minutes prior to Madeleine's absence being discovered what I have said remains the same.
The empty apartments in the immediate vicinity were not visited on the night, she could have been in any one. The occupied apartments in the immediate vicinity were not visited on the night, she could have been in any one.
Madeleine's mother's reaction ... which was not immediate ... she had checked the apartment for occupancy ... was in my opinion (I take it I still may have an opinion?) ... the speediest one in the circumstances.
There are ways of saying you disagree with that without resorting to goading or abuse ... if you have a valid argument which it appears you don't.
My valid argument would be; Kate saying on many, many interviews, including the clucking one, She knew RIGHT AWAY maddie had been taken due to a door being more open that it should have been and on closing it a whooshing.. blah blah blah but ofcourse you could be correct, but that would make Kate a liar ooh now, now be careful.
She also knew Maddie could not have walked an wandered because- well because people would perhaps hate her for an eternity for leaving her children alone to be?....[place your theorem here]
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on December 01, 2015, 10:25:01 PM
My valid argument would be; Kate saying on many, many interviews, including the clucking one, She knew RIGHT AWAY maddie had been taken due to a door being more open that it should have been and on closing it a whooshing.. blah blah blah but ofcourse you could be correct, but that would make Kate a liar ooh now, now be careful.
She also knew Maddie could not have walked an wandered because- well because people would perhaps hate her for an eternity for leaving her children alone to be?....[place your theorem here]
Obviously "the clucking one" has some significance somewhere ... I haven't a clue what you are on about.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: slartibartfast on December 01, 2015, 10:34:44 PM
So, if you are saying this is not generally accepted then can you explain how an abductor got in and out if the parents could see and hear their children from where they were sitting....oh take your time to reply.
So the caring parents couldn't hear the childen crying the night before, Maddie mentioned that to them? oh had you forgotten that bit? ah well never mind, it's only a story.
And why did thy have to go and check anyway if they could se and hear them... someone didn't think this through.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 01, 2015, 10:44:42 PM
What would a rational person assume on finding a bedroom window open and a child missing from her bed ?
There is no evidence of open window. Only Kate said ...
what rational person who knew right away would look in cupboards for an abducted child in the arms of an abductor? how big was this supposed cupboard? even more worrying are you suggesting the alledged abductor a dwarf? ...and to polish of your previous daft claim IF they could see and hear people at the apartment; why did Kate not just say "oh look Maddie has been abducted come here right away and someone call the police". Too easy? what one are you going for?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on December 01, 2015, 11:06:25 PM
There is no evidence of open window. Only Kate said ...
what rational person who knew right away would look in cupboards for an abducted child in the arms of an abductor? how big was this supposed cupboard? even more worrying are you suggesting the alledged abductor a dwarf? ...and to polish of your previous daft claim IF they could see and hear people at the apartment; why did Kate not just say "oh look Maddie has been abducted come here right away and someone call the police". Too easy? what one are you going for?
I see. You are the arbitrator of what eye witnesses saw or did not see.
"why did Kate not just say "oh look Maddie has been abducted come here right away and someone call the police"." WOW! ... how cool - calm - and collected is that when you have just discovered your child missing from her bed in a room you thought was secure but now has a raised shutter and an open window.
If only she had had your sang froid !!
As far as the positively legitimate hope against hope search of the apartment was concerned ... it not only confirmed the child was missing ... it confirmed there was no other person still in the apartment.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: slartibartfast on December 01, 2015, 11:20:08 PM
You might, but faced with the same scenario ... I rather doubt it.
So you are now an expert on rational behaviour- based on hypothetical rhetoric? Nice! So to answer my question , you now being an expert, Would a rational person look in cupboards if they KNEW their daughter had been abducted... take your time with this one...
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 01, 2015, 11:35:29 PM
I see. You are the arbitrator of what eye witnesses saw or did not see.
"why did Kate not just say "oh look Maddie has been abducted come here right away and someone call the police"." WOW! ... how cool - calm - and collected is that when you have just discovered your child missing from her bed in a room you thought was secure but now has a raised shutter and an open window.
If only she had had your sang froid !!
As far as the positively legitimate hope against hope search of the apartment was concerned ... it not only confirmed the child was missing ... it confirmed there was no other person still in the apartment.
No, I have the right to chose to believe or not to believe. it is ALL ABOUT trust.
who said anything about being calm? Brietta would have us believe ( there is that word again) that the tapas 9 could see and hear all from the apartment where they were sitting. or rather dismissed Slartys mention of it.
Oh y'all keep a changin ya stories.... none on them seem to fit. shame that.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 11:40:18 PM
Why are people being so utterly and deliberately obtuse on this issue? Or is it just a complete lack of empathy? Or perhaps simple stupidity?
Kate "knew" (her gut instinct told her) Madeleine had been taken, but she hoped against hope that she would be able to prove herself wrong by finding her child in the apartment, and that is why she looked in cupboards and wardrobes.
Is it really that hard to understand?
have you seriously never been in that situation yourself? Knowing you left the car keys in the office but still checking your pockets and the key cupboard anyway, just in case you're wrong?
Of course you haven't!!
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 01, 2015, 11:58:30 PM
Why are people being so utterly and deliberately obtuse on this issue? Or is it just a complete lack of empathy? Or perhaps simple stupidity?
Kate "knew" (her gut instinct told her) Madeleine had been taken, but she hoped against hope that she would be able to prove herself wrong by finding her child in the apartment, and that is why she looked in cupboards and wardrobes.
Is it really that hard to understand?
have you seriously never been in that situation yourself? Knowing you left the car keys in the office but still checking your pockets and the key cupboard anyway, just in case you're wrong?
Of course you haven't!!
Ahh stupidity a word directed at thoe who did not leave their children alone to be 'abducted'
Now here is the thing ALF. What in the hell is your /their story?
First you claim " is that when you have just discovered your child missing from her bed in a room you thought was secure but now has a raised shutter and an open window.
AND THEN...
Kate "knew" (her gut instinct told her) Madeleine had been taken.
So you tell us.. HOW DID SHE KNOW? was it gut instinct or the whooshing curtains, jemmied shutters and Maddie missing?. Because there was no bloody evidence it would have to be gut instinct then. You want to go with that... check what Kate says, then get back to me.
You see what I mean by trying to make it all fit? It, well, it just doesn't. 8)><(
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on December 02, 2015, 12:02:00 AM
Why are people being so utterly and deliberately obtuse on this issue? Or is it just a complete lack of empathy? Or perhaps simple stupidity?
Kate "knew" (her gut instinct told her) Madeleine had been taken, but she hoped against hope that she would be able to prove herself wrong by finding her child in the apartment, and that is why she looked in cupboards and wardrobes.
Is it really that hard to understand?
have you seriously never been in that situation yourself? Knowing you left the car keys in the office but still checking your pockets and the key cupboard anyway, just in case you're wrong?
Of course you haven't!!
On this I agree with you Alfie. So why did she not check that Jane hadn't heard Madeleine cry and taken her into her apartment ? A long shot maybe but no longer than believing she was in a cupboard.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on December 02, 2015, 12:09:38 AM
On this I agree with you Alfie. So why did she not check that Jane hadn't heard Madeleine cry and taken her into her apartment ? A long shot maybe but no longer than believing she was in a cupboard.
How would Jane have heard Madeleine crying if the window was closed? Jane's path back to her own apartment didn't take her within 20m of Madeleine's bedroom window. Then there was the passing traffic on that main road.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on December 02, 2015, 12:28:18 AM
Don't you think ROB would have mentioned, after returning to the dining table, if JT had taken Madeleine into 5D after she'd heard her crying whilst distantly passing the apartment via the carpark?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm *snipped* Between 15 to 20 minutes later her husband ROB and MO left, together, and went to see their respective children. As her daughter Ev was restless and crying ROB stayed in the bedroom.
Meanwhile, MO went to check his children and those of GM and KH. According to what he said, he saw the twins but he did not see MBM probably because he did not enter the bedroom. As he heard no noise he left presupposing that all was well, returning to the restaurant. MO told her that ROB had stayed in the bedroom.
--- After having quickly eaten the main course she went to the apartment to take the place of her husband so that he could finish his meal. Her husband returned to the restaurant. Some time later, she doesn't know precisely how long, she looked through the lounge window towards the restaurant area, ascertaining, strangely, that there was no-one seated at the table it being that it was still very early for all of them to have already finished the meal.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 02, 2015, 12:33:08 AM
Don't you think ROB would have mentioned, after returning to the dining table, if JT had taken Madeleine into 5D after she'd heard her crying whilst distantly passing the apartment via the carpark?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm *snipped* Between 15 to 20 minutes later her husband ROB and MO left, together, and went to see their respective children. As her daughter Ev was restless and crying ROB stayed in the bedroom.
Meanwhile, MO went to check his children and those of GM and KH. According to what he said, he saw the twins but he did not see MBM probably because he did not enter the bedroom. As he heard no noise he left presupposing that all was well, returning to the restaurant. MO told her that ROB had stayed in the bedroom.
--- After having quickly eaten the main course she went to the apartment to take the place of her husband so that he could finish his meal. Her husband returned to the restaurant. Some time later, she doesn't know precisely how long, she looked through the lounge window towards the restaurant area, ascertaining, strangely, that there was no-one seated at the table it being that it was still very early for all of them to have already finished the meal.
Yes, if JT had taken crying Maddie someone owuld have mentioned it but well we don't know what actually happened do we?
All the abductors and parents passing each other- missing each other, it is just too incredible... Brothers Grimm would make this a best seller.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lace on December 02, 2015, 09:11:52 AM
There is no evidence of open window. Only Kate said ...
what rational person who knew right away would look in cupboards for an abducted child in the arms of an abductor? how big was this supposed cupboard? even more worrying are you suggesting the alledged abductor a dwarf? ...and to polish of your previous daft claim IF they could see and hear people at the apartment; why did Kate not just say "oh look Maddie has been abducted come here right away and someone call the police". Too easy? what one are you going for?
Kate looked in the cupboards as she said she thought she might find her cowering in one of them, as in hiding from the abductor.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: slartibartfast on December 02, 2015, 09:28:45 AM
On this I agree with you Alfie. So why did she not check that Jane hadn't heard Madeleine cry and taken her into her apartment ? A long shot maybe but no longer than believing she was in a cupboard.
It wouldn't have occurred to me in such a panic situation, but I can't speak for Kate. thinking logically, if Jane had heard Madeleine cry she would have gone straight back to the table to let her parents know, not remove the child from her bedroom without telling her parents, that's why it would never have occurred to me to have been a possibility.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on December 02, 2015, 10:31:57 AM
How would Jane have heard Madeleine crying if the window was closed? Jane's path back to her own apartment didn't take her within 20m of Madeleine's bedroom window. Then there was the passing traffic on that main road.
As you say misty, Kate would have been frantic. Do you really think she would have gone through in her mind all the points above ( passing traffic ? ) or just hoped against hope that Tanner had, somehow, taken Madeleine into her own apartment ? I know that I wouldn't be able to accept that my child had been abducted until I had explored all possible reasons for her disappearance, no matter how unlikely.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 02, 2015, 11:19:59 AM
As you say misty, Kate would have been frantic. Do you really think she would have gone through in her mind all the points above ( passing traffic ? ) or just hoped against hope that Tanner had, somehow, taken Madeleine into her own apartment ? I know that I wouldn't be able to accept that my child had been abducted until I had explored all possible reasons for her disappearance, no matter how unlikely.
Why are you being selective about what may and may not have gone through Kate's mind? There are no rights and wrongs about what should and should not go through your mind when you are in a blind panic.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Benice on December 02, 2015, 11:43:13 AM
Why are you being selective about what may and may not have gone through Kate's mind? There are no rights and wrongs about what should and should not go through your mind when you are in a blind panic.
Agreed.
IMO - Whichever way Kate had decided to raise the alarm - it goes without saying that it would automatically be seen as the wrong way - according to sceptics.
Finding fault with every move she makes has been the standard response by some people since day one - no matter how irrational that reaction may be. If she'd shouted from the balcony - no doubt there would be posts asking why on earth she didn't run straight to her husband - only a few seconds away.
Just another McCann bashing exercise IMO.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on December 02, 2015, 12:11:37 PM
Why are you being selective about what may and may not have gone through Kate's mind? There are no rights and wrongs about what should and should not go through your mind when you are in a blind panic.
Can you really believe she would have been rational enough to think ' well Jane was at least 20 metres from our window when she did her check and what with the traffic...... ?
No, neither do I. She would have checked while hoping against hope.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 02, 2015, 12:13:56 PM
Can you really believe she would have been rational enough to think ' well Jane was at least 20 metres from our window when she did her check and what with the traffic...... ?
No, neither do I. She would have checked while hoping against hope.
You don't think she was rational enough to think Jane wouldn't have heard Madeleine crying from 20 metres away but you DO think she was rational enough to think Jane may have heard her crying and took her from the apartment?
How does that work then..? &%+((Ł
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on December 02, 2015, 12:32:13 PM
IMO - Whichever way Kate had decided to raise the alarm - it goes without saying that it would automatically be seen as the wrong way - according to sceptics.
Finding fault with every move she makes has been the standard response by some people since day one - no matter how irrational that reaction may be. If she'd shouted from the balcony - no doubt there would be posts asking why on earth she didn't run straight to her husband - only a few seconds away.
Just another McCann bashing exercise IMO.
No-one knows how one will react in an emergency situation when sheer panic takes over.
For example there are many instances of mothers running out of a burning building leaving their children inside before the realisation hits them and they turn and run back in.
There is no right and no wrong to Kate McCann's reaction on discovering the bedroom window open and her daughter missing. The only thing I can state with a certainty about what my reaction would have been given the same scenario ... is that I would immediately have jumped to exactly the same conclusion she did ... that there had been an intruder who had taken my daughter. I cannot begin to imagine the actual horror of that moment and would be of the opinion that an adrenaline rush would dictate reaction.
How anyone can castigate a mother in that situation is beyond me. I agree that it is very much a McCann bashing exercise which in my opinion is as irrational as all the rest.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 02, 2015, 01:30:11 PM
No-one knows how one will react in an emergency situation when sheer panic takes over.
For example there are many instances of mothers running out of a burning building leaving their children inside before the realisation hits them and they turn and run back in.
There is no right and no wrong to Kate McCann's reaction on discovering the bedroom window open and her daughter missing. The only thing I can state with a certainty about what my reaction would have been given the same scenario ... is that I would immediately have jumped to exactly the same conclusion she did ... that there had been an intruder who had taken my daughter. I cannot begin to imagine the actual horror of that moment and would be of the opinion that an adrenaline rush would dictate reaction.
How anyone can castigate a mother in that situation is beyond me. I agree that it is very much a McCann bashing exercise which in my opinion is as irrational as all the rest.
Yet again.
No independent confirmation the window was open before 10 pm.
The only identified fingerprints are hers.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: slartibartfast on December 02, 2015, 02:18:26 PM
IMO - Whichever way Kate had decided to raise the alarm - it goes without saying that it would automatically be seen as the wrong way - according to sceptics.
Finding fault with every move she makes has been the standard response by some people since day one - no matter how irrational that reaction may be. If she'd shouted from the balcony - no doubt there would be posts asking why on earth she didn't run straight to her husband - only a few seconds away.
Just another McCann bashing exercise IMO.
No, just another contradiction.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 02, 2015, 02:21:38 PM
No independent confirmation the window was open before 10 pm.
The only identified fingerprints are hers.
Hardly surprising Dr Mccann's fingerprints are on the window glass ... she did after all look out of it.
Don't you ever tire of repetition? I'm certainly less than impressed with your inability to further any sort of discussion in response to a post. That is taking a point and expanding on it or making cogent argument where you may differ on it.
Perhaps now is time to call a halt to responding to my posts since you have said it all so many, many, many, many times before that one is led to suppose you are incapable of doing otherwise.
So why don't we take it as read that you are going to repeat exactly the same firmly held prejudices with the only variety the order of the rotation ... that will save you boring yourself with repetition, save bandwidth and save me the bother of mouthing the phrases from you that I already know so well by heart.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: slartibartfast on December 02, 2015, 02:44:44 PM
Hardly surprising Dr Mccann's fingerprints are on the window glass ... she did after all look out of it.
Don't you ever tire of repetition? I'm certainly less than impressed with your inability to further any sort of discussion in response to a post. That is taking a point and expanding on it or making cogent argument where you may differ on it.
Perhaps now is time to call a halt to responding to my posts since you have said it all so many, many, many, many times before that one is led to suppose you are incapable of doing otherwise.
So why don't we take it as read that you are going to repeat exactly the same firmly held prejudices with the only variety the order of the rotation ... that will save you boring yourself with repetition, save bandwidth and save me the bother of mouthing the phrases from you that I already know so well by heart.
As I say to the Grandkids, you look with your eyes.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on December 02, 2015, 03:12:50 PM
As I say to the Grandkids, you look with your eyes.
I take it that is in reference to Dr McCann's fingerprints on the window glass? The only way she could "look with her eyes" was to lean out of the window to check, probably in the first instance, to see if Madeleine had somehow got out that way and was in sight.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 02, 2015, 03:27:25 PM
Hardly surprising Dr Mccann's fingerprints are on the window glass ... she did after all look out of it.
Don't you ever tire of repetition? I'm certainly less than impressed with your inability to further any sort of discussion in response to a post. That is taking a point and expanding on it or making cogent argument where you may differ on it.
Perhaps now is time to call a halt to responding to my posts since you have said it all so many, many, many, many times before that one is led to suppose you are incapable of doing otherwise.
So why don't we take it as read that you are going to repeat exactly the same firmly held prejudices with the only variety the order of the rotation ... that will save you boring yourself with repetition, save bandwidth and save me the bother of mouthing the phrases from you that I already know so well by heart.
The repetition is you and your fellows spouting abduction, without a shred of evidence.
So when it comes to BORING this forum with endless repetition of drivel, learn from your own preaching.
It's about time you did.
As to predujices, they spout from each time you type.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ferryman on December 02, 2015, 03:57:03 PM
The repetition is you and your fellows spouting abduction, without a shred of evidence.
So when it comes to BORING this forum with endless repetition of drivel, learn from your own preaching.
It's about time you did.
As to predujices, they spout from each time you type.
As tiresome as the repetition of your posting is the ad hominem attacks are just as much so.
If you wish to be in denial of what is the current thinking on Madeleine's case that is your concern. Most of the rest of the world has progressed from the discredited theory of a discredited detective and are hopeful of the positive resolution wished for by most caring people.
**Snip Redwood and his 37-strong team have identified 195 missed investigative opportunities in the 40,000 pieces of evidence they have examined from the Portuguese inquiry, the family's home force in Leicestershire, and the information gleaned by a team of private detectives hired by the McCann family since Madeleine went missing, aged three, from the resort of Praia de Luz on 3 May 2007.
"We are in a unique position seeking to draw together the three key strands of information about her disappearance," said Redwood.
He unequivocally dismissed the conspiracy theory – promoted by the original Portuguese lead detective Goncalo Amaral – that Madeleine's parents had anything to do with her disappearance.
He said detectives believe Madeleine was abducted in "a criminal act by a stranger".
As tiresome as the repetition of your posting is the ad hominem attacks are just as much so.
If you wish to be in denial of what is the current thinking on Madeleine's case that is your concern. Most of the rest of the world has progressed from the discredited theory of a discredited detective and are hopeful of the positive resolution wished for by most caring people.
**Snip Redwood and his 37-strong team have identified 195 missed investigative opportunities in the 40,000 pieces of evidence they have examined from the Portuguese inquiry, the family's home force in Leicestershire, and the information gleaned by a team of private detectives hired by the McCann family since Madeleine went missing, aged three, from the resort of Praia de Luz on 3 May 2007.
"We are in a unique position seeking to draw together the three key strands of information about her disappearance," said Redwood.
He unequivocally dismissed the conspiracy theory – promoted by the original Portuguese lead detective Goncalo Amaral – that Madeleine's parents had anything to do with her disappearance.
He said detectives believe Madeleine was abducted in "a criminal act by a stranger".
As tiresome as the repetition of your posting is the ad hominem attacks are just as much so.
If you wish to be in denial of what is the current thinking on Madeleine's case that is your concern. Most of the rest of the world has progressed from the discredited theory of a discredited detective and are hopeful of the positive resolution wished for by most caring people.
**Snip Redwood and his 37-strong team have identified 195 missed investigative opportunities in the 40,000 pieces of evidence they have examined from the Portuguese inquiry, the family's home force in Leicestershire, and the information gleaned by a team of private detectives hired by the McCann family since Madeleine went missing, aged three, from the resort of Praia de Luz on 3 May 2007.
"We are in a unique position seeking to draw together the three key strands of information about her disappearance," said Redwood.
He unequivocally dismissed the conspiracy theory – promoted by the original Portuguese lead detective Goncalo Amaral – that Madeleine's parents had anything to do with her disappearance.
He said detectives believe Madeleine was abducted in "a criminal act by a stranger".
He might have believed that, but he certainly hasn't been able to prove it.
Although now retired, neither DCI Redwood nor his successor require to "prove" anything ... nor am I quite sure that is actually their remit. I would imagine it is probably more appropriate for the courts to deal with the matter of guilt, innocence and provenance.
I believe the role of policing is to find the evidence trail and to follow it either to where it peters out or to conclusion for handing over to the prosecuting authorities.
I rather get the impression you and others have been somewhat beguiled into thinking that any second rate detective who could be considered a better author and documentary maker than he ever was at the day job only has to invent a thesis ... and job done ... case solved.
The real world does not work like that outwith the pages of Christie, Conan Doyle and Amaral.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on December 02, 2015, 05:22:52 PM
Although now retired, neither DCI Redwood nor his successor require to "prove" anything ... nor am I quite sure that is actually their remit. I would imagine it is probably more appropriate for the courts to deal with the matter of guilt, innocence and provenance.
I believe the role of policing is to find the evidence trail and to follow it either to where it peters out or to conclusion for handing over to the prosecuting authorities.
I rather get the impression you and others have been somewhat beguiled into thinking that any second rate detective who could be considered a better author and documentary maker than he ever was at the day job only has to invent a thesis ... and job done ... case solved.
The real world does not work like that outwith the pages of Christie, Conan Doyle and Amaral.
I rather think Christie and Conan-Doyle are not flattered by that comparison ....
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: slartibartfast on December 02, 2015, 06:33:45 PM
Nope ... just giving a mention to another two authors of fiction.
Droll. The Portuguese judicial authorities do not share your biased views, and they have the upper hand, so that is just, well, that...their views matter, yours do not
....
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on December 02, 2015, 07:13:29 PM
Droll. The Portuguese judicial authorities do not share your biased views, and they have the upper hand, so that is just, well, that...their views matter, yours do not
....
and neither do yours of course...and it looks like they do not see the mccanns as suspects either
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 02, 2015, 07:13:55 PM
I rather think Christie and Conan-Doyle are not flattered by that comparison ....
LOL should probably gone for Victorian 'Penny Dreadful' authors ... some of them claimed what they penned to be based on 'true stories' the more lurid the better. Don't know if any of them ever came up with body fluids sloshing around in a carriage one though or wasn't there something about the pet crematorium with remains secreted inside a Labrador? Or is that too ridiculous for words? ... oh wait a minute, seems not ...
**Snip Pet cremator is asked: Did you burn Madeleine McCann's body ** He said he was asked if a body could have been hidden in one of the dead animal carcasses, but said he told police that he checked everything that was burned. ** "They asked if I had spoken with the parents of Madeleine McCann," he said. "They claimed they knew I had spoken to the parents, but it's not true. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1563735/Pet-cremator-is-asked-Did-you-burn-Madeleine-McCanns-body.html
Lots of time spent investigating her parents apparently and their supposed involvement in secreting her remains. What a shame while that was going on ... no-one was giving Madeleine the benefit of the doubt and going to the trouble of looking for her with the exception of her parents..
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on December 02, 2015, 07:20:26 PM
and neither do yours of course...and it looks like they do not see the mccanns as suspects either
Presumng to know what someone else is referring to, when one does not actually know or even ask, and does not even attempt to engage braincells is not a sign of superior intelligence...but of arrogance and laziness..you must brush up on....several things..lol
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on December 02, 2015, 07:21:46 PM
LOL should probably gone for Victorian 'Penny Dreadful' authors ... some of them claimed what they penned to be based on 'true stories' the more lurid the better. Don't know if any of them ever came up with body fluids sloshing around in a carriage one though or wasn't there something about the pet crematorium with remains secreted inside a Labrador? Or is that too ridiculous for words? ... oh wait a minute, seems not ...
**Snip Pet cremator is asked: Did you burn Madeleine McCann's body ** He said he was asked if a body could have been hidden in one of the dead animal carcasses, but said he told police that he checked everything that was burned. ** "They asked if I had spoken with the parents of Madeleine McCann," he said. "They claimed they knew I had spoken to the parents, but it's not true. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1563735/Pet-cremator-is-asked-Did-you-burn-Madeleine-McCanns-body.html
Lots of time spent investigating her parents apparently and their supposed involvement in secreting her remains. What a shame while that was going on ... no-one was giving Madeleine the benefit of the doubt and going to the trouble of looking for her with the exception of her parents..
How utterly ridiculous to state no one gave MADELEINE the benefit of the doubt, that does not even make sense, Im sure that was an unconscious SLIP of yours whch exposes one of your tactics, disgraceful....and dear, you do not KNOW what happened, therefore this FACT does not give you any right whatsoever to post yur BELIEFS as FACTS, ths breaks forum rules at the very least...now go away and thnk about this
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 02, 2015, 08:49:18 PM
Nope ... just giving a mention to another two authors of fiction.
According to the trial judgement posted on this forum the learned judge does not share your view that Sr Amaral's book was work of fiction if you are suggesting it is a work of fiction that is.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ferryman on December 02, 2015, 08:58:14 PM
According to the trial judgement posted on this forum the learned judge does not share your view that Sr Amaral's book was work of fiction if you are suggesting it is a work of fiction that is.
Madeleine McCann's parents winlibel damages in trial of police chief Gonçalo Amaral, who led investigation for missing girl in Portugal in 2007, is found guilty of libelling Gerry and Kate McCann and ordered to pay €500,000 Kate and Gerry McCann in Lisbon last July after delivering statements in their case against Gonçalo Amaral. Kate and Gerry McCann in Lisbon last July after delivering statements in their case against Gonçalo Amaral. Photograph: Patricia de Melo Moreira/AFP/Getty Images Josh Halliday and Brendan de Beer in Portugal Tuesday 28 April 2015 16.00 BST Last modified on Wednesday 29 April 2015 00.20 BST Share on Pinterest Share on LinkedIn Share on Google+ Shares 648
A former Portuguese police chief has been ordered to pay the parents of Madeleine McCann €500,000 (Ł357,953) in libel damages after accusing them of faking their daughter’s abduction.
Gonçalo Amaral, who led the botched police search for the three-year-old in 2007, has been on trial at Lisbon’s Palace of Justice over claims he made in a book about Madeleine’s disappearance.
Gerry and Kate McCann told the trial last year of their “devastation, desperation, anxiety and pain” at being accused by Amaral of hiding their daughter’s body.
Kate and Gerry McCann criticise former police chief who led hunt for Madeleine Read more In a lengthy ruling on Tuesday, Amaral was found guilty of libelling the pair and ordered to pay them €250,000 (Ł179,170) each in damages, plus €106,000 (Ł76,000) in interest. The judge also banned further sale of his book, the Truth of the Lie.
The ruling comes days before the eighth anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance on Sunday. She vanished from her parents’ holiday apartment in Praia da Luz on the evening of Thursday 3 May 2007, triggering the biggest missing persons investigation for decades.
The McCanns said after Tuesday’s verdict that they were delighted with the judge’s ruling and stressed that the action was never about money.
In a statement issued by their family spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, they said: “We are delighted with the judge’s verdict today. We want to emphasise the action was never about money. It was entirely focused on the effect of the libels on our other children and the damage that was done to the search for Madeleine.
“A lot has changed in the six years since we launched the action and we are pleased that there is still an active investigation in both Portugal and the UK. We would like to remind people that there is still an innocent little girl who is missing and that those responsible for her abduction remain at large.”
A renewed Scotland Yard inquiry, launched in 2011, has so far failed to make a significant breakthrough. In the past year, detectives have carried out fresh ground searches and interviews with witnesses in the Algarve resort.
Kate and Gerry, who were originally seeking €1.25m (almost Ł900,000) in compensation from Amaral, said the damage caused by the retired officer’s book was exacerbated because it could stop people coming forward with information if they believed his assertion that Madeleine was dead. However, the judge’s 52-page ruling said €500,000 compensation was “adequate and proportional” to the damage caused by the allegations.
Amaral’s book, which was a bestseller in Portugal, was particularly controversial because it was released just three days after the Portuguese attorney general’s office decided to shelve the search in July 2008.
The court said it was not proven that the allegations made in the book “contributed to hindering, in any way, the course of the investigation” into Madeleine’s disappearance.
Isabel Duarte, the McCanns’ lawyer, declined to comment on the libel result but said she had sent Kate and Gerry a copy of the ruling.
Giving evidence in the libel trial last year, Kate McCann told how her son asked if she had hidden his missing sister’s body after hearing Amaral’s claims. She said she and Gerry had taken advice from a child psychologist on how to answer questions asked by Sean, nine, and his twin sister Amelie.
Kate added: “They know Mr Amaral has written a book and about the documentary. They obviously don’t know the detail. We had advice from a child psychologist. He told us to let the twins lead the conversation so if they ask a question try to answer it honestly. I believe what’s in Mr Amaral’s book and the documentary is very distressing to adults. To a child it could be very, very damaging.”
Advertisement
Describing the moment Sean asked her about Amaral’s claims, Kate said: “Sean asked me: ‘Mr Amaral said you hid Madeleine, didn’t he?’ It was October last year. I just said: ‘He did. He said a lot of silly things.’”
She told the judge, Maria de Melo e Castro, that Amaral’s claims were even more damaging because they could prevent potential witnesses from coming forward with information if they believed his insistence that Madeleine is dead.
Amaral, who was dropped from the Madeleine investigation after several blunders, vowed earlier last year to countersue the McCanns. Writing on Facebook, he said he would launch “a lawsuit against the McCann couple and others to be compensated for enormous damage they caused me – moral, professional and financial”.
He added: “The time to judicially react to those who put my privacy, intimacy, freedom of expression and opinion and survival at stake is approaching. They have tried to assassinate me civilly. But due to the support and solidarity of all of you, they were not successful.”
In October last year, the McCanns were awarded Ł55,000 in libel damages from the publisher of the Sunday Times over an article which alleged that the couple deliberately hindered the search for their daughter.
That settlement came six years after the couple negotiated a Ł550,000 payment to Madeleine’s fund from Express Newspapers over a series of defamatory articles in the Daily Express, Sunday Express and the Daily Star.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 02, 2015, 09:02:00 PM
Madeleine McCann's parents winlibel damages in trial of police chief Gonçalo Amaral, who led investigation for missing girl in Portugal in 2007, is found guilty of libelling Gerry and Kate McCann and ordered to pay €500,000 Kate and Gerry McCann in Lisbon last July after delivering statements in their case against Gonçalo Amaral. Kate and Gerry McCann in Lisbon last July after delivering statements in their case against Gonçalo Amaral. Photograph: Patricia de Melo Moreira/AFP/Getty Images Josh Halliday and Brendan de Beer in Portugal Tuesday 28 April 2015 16.00 BST Last modified on Wednesday 29 April 2015 00.20 BST Share on Pinterest Share on LinkedIn Share on Google+ Shares 648
A former Portuguese police chief has been ordered to pay the parents of Madeleine McCann €500,000 (Ł357,953) in libel damages after accusing them of faking their daughter’s abduction.
Gonçalo Amaral, who led the botched police search for the three-year-old in 2007, has been on trial at Lisbon’s Palace of Justice over claims he made in a book about Madeleine’s disappearance.
Gerry and Kate McCann told the trial last year of their “devastation, desperation, anxiety and pain” at being accused by Amaral of hiding their daughter’s body.
Kate and Gerry McCann criticise former police chief who led hunt for Madeleine Read more In a lengthy ruling on Tuesday, Amaral was found guilty of libelling the pair and ordered to pay them €250,000 (Ł179,170) each in damages, plus €106,000 (Ł76,000) in interest. The judge also banned further sale of his book, the Truth of the Lie.
The ruling comes days before the eighth anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance on Sunday. She vanished from her parents’ holiday apartment in Praia da Luz on the evening of Thursday 3 May 2007, triggering the biggest missing persons investigation for decades.
The McCanns said after Tuesday’s verdict that they were delighted with the judge’s ruling and stressed that the action was never about money.
In a statement issued by their family spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, they said: “We are delighted with the judge’s verdict today. We want to emphasise the action was never about money. It was entirely focused on the effect of the libels on our other children and the damage that was done to the search for Madeleine.
“A lot has changed in the six years since we launched the action and we are pleased that there is still an active investigation in both Portugal and the UK. We would like to remind people that there is still an innocent little girl who is missing and that those responsible for her abduction remain at large.”
A renewed Scotland Yard inquiry, launched in 2011, has so far failed to make a significant breakthrough. In the past year, detectives have carried out fresh ground searches and interviews with witnesses in the Algarve resort.
Kate and Gerry, who were originally seeking €1.25m (almost Ł900,000) in compensation from Amaral, said the damage caused by the retired officer’s book was exacerbated because it could stop people coming forward with information if they believed his assertion that Madeleine was dead. However, the judge’s 52-page ruling said €500,000 compensation was “adequate and proportional” to the damage caused by the allegations.
Amaral’s book, which was a bestseller in Portugal, was particularly controversial because it was released just three days after the Portuguese attorney general’s office decided to shelve the search in July 2008.
The court said it was not proven that the allegations made in the book “contributed to hindering, in any way, the course of the investigation” into Madeleine’s disappearance.
Isabel Duarte, the McCanns’ lawyer, declined to comment on the libel result but said she had sent Kate and Gerry a copy of the ruling.
Giving evidence in the libel trial last year, Kate McCann told how her son asked if she had hidden his missing sister’s body after hearing Amaral’s claims. She said she and Gerry had taken advice from a child psychologist on how to answer questions asked by Sean, nine, and his twin sister Amelie.
Kate added: “They know Mr Amaral has written a book and about the documentary. They obviously don’t know the detail. We had advice from a child psychologist. He told us to let the twins lead the conversation so if they ask a question try to answer it honestly. I believe what’s in Mr Amaral’s book and the documentary is very distressing to adults. To a child it could be very, very damaging.”
Advertisement
Describing the moment Sean asked her about Amaral’s claims, Kate said: “Sean asked me: ‘Mr Amaral said you hid Madeleine, didn’t he?’ It was October last year. I just said: ‘He did. He said a lot of silly things.’”
She told the judge, Maria de Melo e Castro, that Amaral’s claims were even more damaging because they could prevent potential witnesses from coming forward with information if they believed his insistence that Madeleine is dead.
Amaral, who was dropped from the Madeleine investigation after several blunders, vowed earlier last year to countersue the McCanns. Writing on Facebook, he said he would launch “a lawsuit against the McCann couple and others to be compensated for enormous damage they caused me – moral, professional and financial”.
He added: “The time to judicially react to those who put my privacy, intimacy, freedom of expression and opinion and survival at stake is approaching. They have tried to assassinate me civilly. But due to the support and solidarity of all of you, they were not successful.”
In October last year, the McCanns were awarded Ł55,000 in libel damages from the publisher of the Sunday Times over an article which alleged that the couple deliberately hindered the search for their daughter.
That settlement came six years after the couple negotiated a Ł550,000 payment to Madeleine’s fund from Express Newspapers over a series of defamatory articles in the Daily Express, Sunday Express and the Daily Star.
So you come up with a quote from The Grauniad? Now look at the judgement. It's on here for everyone to read so there's no need to deflect with newspaper articles.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ferryman on December 02, 2015, 09:09:55 PM
The court said it was not proven that the allegations made in the book “contributed to hindering, in any way, the course of the investigation” into Madeleine’s disappearance.
Different from: did not harm the search for Madeleine
Of course it harmed the search for Madeleine.
The learned judge was not stupid ...
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: stephen25000 on December 02, 2015, 09:17:03 PM
The court said it was not proven that the allegations made in the book “contributed to hindering, in any way, the course of the investigation” into Madeleine’s disappearance.
Different from: did not harm the search for Madeleine
Of course it harmed the search for Madeleine.
The learned judge was not stupid ...
There was no harm to the so called 'search'.
Another forum myth and lie.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ferryman on December 02, 2015, 09:32:11 PM
Seeing as the book was published after the investigation was complete, of course it had no influence on the investigation's course or determination.
That's what the honourable judge found.
Bang-on right.
Flawless judgement.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussio
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 02, 2015, 09:41:24 PM
Mr Amaral was looking for the body of a dead child ... not a living one ... all the while attempting to implicate her parents. In my opinion a very limited man indeed.
Perhaps you should count to at least four million and forty two in an effort to calm down before hitting your keyboard when responding to posts.
If anyone is breaking forum rules ... consisently breaking forum rules ... it is you. In my opinion your rudeness knows no bounds.
After Eddie alerted police were looking for a dead body in the Kate Prout case and building a case against her husband (not a shadow!). Those cops must be limited too according to you. They bring cadaver dogs in to investigate and when they alert they ignore it and start looking for a living person. Is that what you believe?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussio
Post by: Mr Gray on December 02, 2015, 09:59:45 PM
After Eddie alerted police were looking for a dead body in the Kate Prout case and building a case against her husband (not a shadow!). Those cops must be limited too according to you. They bring cadaver dogs in to investigate and when they alert they ignore it and start looking for a living person. Is that what you believe?
I would say that the police were already looking for a dead body and the alert made absolutely no difference to their investigation at all
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussio
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 02, 2015, 10:06:15 PM
After Eddie alerted police were looking for a dead body in the Kate Prout case and building a case against her husband (not a shadow!). Those cops must be limited too according to you. They bring cadaver dogs in to investigate and when they alert they ignore it and start looking for a living person. Is that what you believe?
In the Prout case, Eddie's alert (hundreds of yards from where Kate Prout was murdered and buried) played a minuscule part of the case against him.
The prosecution contended that Prout had strangled his wife in the matrimonial home, an erroneous detail in an (otherwise) safe and correct judgement.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussio
Post by: faithlilly on December 03, 2015, 12:00:38 AM
The distraction to a police enquiry (on this occasion) did not hinder a safe conclusion.
The bulk of the evidence was circumstantial. Mrs Prout's credit cards and bank accounts had remained untouched and she would have needed money to live (had she been alive). That was the major one.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 18, 2016, 12:57:25 AM
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on July 18, 2016, 01:08:05 AM
The father at least seems totally inncent imo
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 18, 2016, 01:29:11 AM
After examination of such – the following conclusions based upon evidence at hand was made :
1. Vernal Kunz was deceptive, had failed five (5) polygraph examinations and had told six different stories. Vernal Kunz was declared a suspect in a homicide either by accident or intentional means. 2. Jessica Mitchell Anderson was deceptive, had failed four (4) polygraph examinations and had told five different stories. Jessica Anderson was declared a suspect in a homicide either by accident or intentional means. 3. Robert “Bob” Walton was deceptive, had told two stories to KIC investigators, and was inconclusive on his polygraph examinations. Bob Walton was declared a person of interest or witness in a homicide either by accident or intentional means. 4. Issac Reinwand was truthful, had told the same story to KIC investigators and Law Enforcement four times. However, some details had been left out of one of the stories. After review Reinwand was declared a person of interest as a witness in a homicide either by accident or intentional means.
During the five day operation the following objectives were met :
Time distance study to fully verify or disprove Vernal Kunz’s timeline. Time distance study to fully verify or disprove Jessica Mitchell Anderson’s timeline. Cell Phone Impact and Signal Study of known directional “pings” in investigators possession. Site location study to verify or disprove the testimony by witnesses to KIC and Law Enforcement. Dog Search – to verify or disprove the testimony to KIC and Law Enforcement. A secondary dog search in the city of Idaho Falls, ID, at two locations.
The following were the results :
The time distance study failed to verify Vernal Kunz’s testimony in his timeline. The time distance study failed to verify Jessica Mitchell Anderson’s testimony in her timeline. The Cell Phone Impact study was able to determine that Vernal Kunz’s testimony was fabricated. As well it was determined that Vernal Kunz’s testimony that he drove 1.5 miles to get a cell signal was not truthful. The site location study was successfully completed and it was determined that the testimony of Kunz, Anderson and Walton not only could not be verified, but physically according to their statements to KIC and Law Enforcement, the events as portrayed could not have occurred. The dog study presented five areas of “hits” further explained below. The secondary dog study was productive and is further explained below.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on July 18, 2016, 01:40:08 AM
So ones protecting the other or both if guilty
Polygraphs cant tell that
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 18, 2016, 01:42:37 AM
Discrepancies have emerged in the accounts of the circumstances in which the child went missing, authorities said. And questions have been raised about the veracity of statements made by his parents, with both the mother and the father failing a polygraph question tied to the boy’s whereabouts, said Bowerman.
Bowerman also noted that Kunz Sr. and Mitchell were given multiple polygraph tests over the course of the investigation. Though the results came back as inconclusive, the sheriff said that the parents consistently failed on the questions asking whether they knew anything about DeOrr’s disappearance and whether they knew where DeOrr was located.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on July 18, 2016, 02:26:24 AM
Author’s partner on murder charge as body ‘found in hidden cesspit’
Gruesome discovery after neighbours tip off police (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/16/19/3657BDDA00000578-3693633-image-a-81_1468693418845.jpg)
The Scottish Mail on Sunday17 Jul 2016By Andrew Young
THE partner of missing author Helen Bailey appeared in court charged with her murder yesterday – as neighbours claimed her body had been found in a cesspit at her Ł1.2million home. Neighbours said her body was discovered – along with that of her dachshund, Boris – after the former owner of the house told police of the existence of the cesspit in the garage. Computer expert Ian Stewart, 55, is also charged with preventing the lawful burial of Miss Bailey, 51, and perverting the course of justice. He spoke only to confirm his name and address during a two-minute hearing before magistrates in Hatfield, Hertfordshire. Stewart was remanded in custody to appear tomorrow at St Albans Crown Court. Miss Bailey, who created the Electra Brown and Daisy Davenport books for teenagers, was last seen out walking her dog on April 11 near her spacious home in Royston, Hertfordshire. It was initially thought she may have gone to stay at her seaside property in Kent, but police found no sign of her. Stewart was arrested on suspicion of murder last Monday as police began an extensive search of the detached house in Royston, three months after an earlier search yielded no clues. Officers found the body on Friday after five days searching the grounds. Mother-of-three Nicki McGrath, from Perth, Australia, whose mother lives next door to the author, said police had been unaware of the existence of the cesspit before being told about it on Friday. Ms McGrath, who is staying with her mother while on holiday, said: ‘My mum was being disturbed by the noise of the generator which the police were using during their search. We had a word with police on Thursday evening to ask what time they would be turning it off. They said they were due to finish the next day. ‘We were just leaving when I said, “It might sound stupid, but have you dredged the well?” ‘We told them the last person who lived there used to joke that he had this ideal place to dump a body. ‘The senior officer came to see us the next morning and we told him what we knew. Then my mum phoned the former owner of the house so the detective could speak directly to him. ‘It turned out the police had only been draining the overflow tank in the old well in the garden, thinking that was all there was. The former owner told them the actual cesspit was in the large garage at the back of the house. ‘The body was found a little while later. It must have been in the cesspit because they had searched everywhere else without finding anything. ‘I have some empathy with the police because they could not have known the cesspit was there.’ Ms McGrath’s mother, who asked not to be named, said: ‘Helen was a lovely person. She was forthcoming, exuberant, intelligent and very friendly. She was genuine and outgoing and made everyone feel so special. What has happened is just awful.’ Det Chief Supt Paul Fullwood, who leads the Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire and Hertfordshire Major Crime Unit, refused to say where the body was found, but said: ‘We can confirm Helen Bailey’s body was found within the grounds of her home along with the body of her dog, Boris. ‘The searches have been painstaking and more work will need to take place in the coming days. Specialist officers are continuing to support Helen’s family at this extremely difficult time.’ A statement from Miss Bailey’s family said: ‘We share with Helen’s friends, neighbours and fans our shock, disbelief and sadness at the news of her tragic death. ‘Helen was immensely witty and talented. We love her deeply and are immensely proud of her achievements. She is now at peace and we shall all miss her terribly. ‘We wish to express our gratitude to the police as well as all those who supported us in the search for Helen.’ ‘Helen made everyone feel so special’ http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scottish-mail-on-sunday/20160717/281874412749880
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on July 19, 2016, 01:07:08 AM
Authors murdering partner case has got what to do with ths thread on MM case and forum????? Unless you are insinuating MM is in a cesspit somewhere???
Madeleine mccann is obviously dead years ago,no intelligent or sane person woudl dispute that The point of this forum is trying to figure out how and who
So keep calm and carry on But pls dont post pointless articles
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on July 19, 2016, 01:58:10 AM
Authors murdering partner case has got what to do with ths thread on MM case and forum????? Unless you are insinuating MM is in a cesspit somewhere???
Madeleine mccann is obviously dead years ago,no intelligent or sane person woudl dispute that The point of this forum is trying to figure out how and who
So keep calm and carry on But pls dont post pointless articles
There is no evidence we know of that Madeleine McCann is dead; there is no evidence we know of that she is alive; therefore there is a fifty fifty chance either way.
The relevance or not of the article to the case of a missing person whether considering possible places of concealment to cadaver dogs is in my opinion self evident. Helen Bailey's remains and those of her dog were in a cesspit and were only found because someone with local knowledge knew the cesspit existed and told the police.
I think you are perhaps misguided in thinking the forum may be instrumental in "figuring out" how and by whom Madeleine may have been abducted. Like everyone else we are going to have to wait for the professionals to bring the case to a conclusion. Whether that is a successful or an unsuccessful one remains to be seen. In the interim there is no harm in hoping for the best.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on July 19, 2016, 07:01:01 AM
After examination of such – the following conclusions based upon evidence at hand was made :
1. Vernal Kunz was deceptive, had failed five (5) polygraph examinations and had told six different stories. Vernal Kunz was declared a suspect in a homicide either by accident or intentional means. 2. Jessica Mitchell Anderson was deceptive, had failed four (4) polygraph examinations and had told five different stories. Jessica Anderson was declared a suspect in a homicide either by accident or intentional means. 3. Robert “Bob” Walton was deceptive, had told two stories to KIC investigators, and was inconclusive on his polygraph examinations. Bob Walton was declared a person of interest or witness in a homicide either by accident or intentional means. 4. Issac Reinwand was truthful, had told the same story to KIC investigators and Law Enforcement four times. However, some details had been left out of one of the stories. After review Reinwand was declared a person of interest as a witness in a homicide either by accident or intentional means.
During the five day operation the following objectives were met :
Time distance study to fully verify or disprove Vernal Kunz’s timeline. Time distance study to fully verify or disprove Jessica Mitchell Anderson’s timeline. Cell Phone Impact and Signal Study of known directional “pings” in investigators possession. Site location study to verify or disprove the testimony by witnesses to KIC and Law Enforcement. Dog Search – to verify or disprove the testimony to KIC and Law Enforcement. A secondary dog search in the city of Idaho Falls, ID, at two locations.
The following were the results :
The time distance study failed to verify Vernal Kunz’s testimony in his timeline. The time distance study failed to verify Jessica Mitchell Anderson’s testimony in her timeline. The Cell Phone Impact study was able to determine that Vernal Kunz’s testimony was fabricated. As well it was determined that Vernal Kunz’s testimony that he drove 1.5 miles to get a cell signal was not truthful. The site location study was successfully completed and it was determined that the testimony of Kunz, Anderson and Walton not only could not be verified, but physically according to their statements to KIC and Law Enforcement, the events as portrayed could not have occurred. The dog study presented five areas of “hits” further explained below. The secondary dog study was productive and is further explained below.
Investigator Sargent reports the “Chance” whom is a trained cadaver dog hit five different unknown targets. Chance is trained on human decomposition and human blood pathogen decomposition.
(...) The following are the hits (limited) :
1. “Diaper Tree Area” – This is the area to which it was testified that “a diaper” was hung in the tree in the campground. 2. 139 Feet East of the Cattle Guard in the camp ground – in a loose ground area. 3. 10 Feet Due East of camp site. 4. 2.24 miles due Northeast of the 15 mp stake, in the ravine near 221 southeast fence. 5. Camp site ground .75 miles due East of the camp ground.
Area 1 : There was no evidence obtained. Area 2 : Excavation was undertaken by LE and KIC – this area needs to be further exhumed and was turned over to Law Enforcement for further investigation by their team. Area 3 : This area was excavated by hand – and found that a previous animal had been buried at this location. During the burial the subject who did the burial cut his hand and bled into a towel wrapped around the animal. Area 4 : Investigators have turned this area over to law enforcement. Area 5 : Investigators believe this site may have been a “holding site” for some type of human body.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 19, 2016, 03:26:44 PM
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2016, 12:12:43 AM
There is no evidence we know of that Madeleine McCann is dead; there is no evidence we know of that she is alive; therefore there is a fifty fifty chance either way.
The relevance or not of the article to the case of a missing person whether considering possible places of concealment to cadaver dogs is in my opinion self evident. Helen Bailey's remains and those of her dog were in a cesspit and were only found because someone with local knowledge knew the cesspit existed and told the police.
I think you are perhaps misguided in thinking the forum may be instrumental in "figuring out" how and by whom Madeleine may have been abducted. Like everyone else we are going to have to wait for the professionals to bring the case to a conclusion. Whether that is a successful or an unsuccessful one remains to be seen. In the interim there is no harm in hoping for the best.
Oh but its not 50 50 at all if you factor n the dogs and statistics and th prosecutors fnal report and no sight of her for 10 years
And you should have added your musings and analysis or whatever to your orignal post.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: John on July 25, 2016, 12:33:14 PM
Posters please note that this thread is provided solely for the purpose of discussing former media reports.
Title: Re: Will new PM Theresa May offer new hope for Madeleine investigation?
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 25, 2016, 12:34:08 PM
That is just an over reaction by the Jersey State's authorities. Had they bothered to read here they would have realised hundreds of thousands of people do it all the time and it constitutes no risk.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on July 30, 2016, 01:01:54 PM
That is just an over reaction by the Jersey State's authorities. Had they bothered to read here they would have realised hundreds of thousands of people do it all the time and it constitutes no risk.
Personally I do not see any correlation between the Mail article and Madeleine McCann's disappearance apart from confirmation that people seem to be running out of pejorative associations as far as her parents are concerned.
The Jersey State authorities are to be commended in their actions of safeguarding vulnerable children. Particularly as they have been and are subject to much criticism for alleged failure to do so in the past.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on July 30, 2016, 01:20:39 PM
That is just an over reaction by the Jersey State's authorities. Had they bothered to read here they would have realised hundreds of thousands of people do it all the time and it constitutes no risk.
For as long as those hundreds of thousands of people continue to believe that Madeleine met her fate at the hands of her parents, leaving children alone in hotel rooms or apartments for a few hours in a safe resort will not be viewed as any more risky than doing the same at home.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/british-mum-arrested-benidorm-holiday-8520386 This case is even worse, imo. i Is it just the British rebelling against the nanny state or is there something more fundamentally wrong with our values?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: sadie on July 30, 2016, 03:41:36 PM
The DJ and his wife drove off in a car; the Mccanns were just 50 metres away, they and their friends in sight of the apartment at just 50 metres away, which was illuminated. It was like dining in their back garden.
In actual fact it was their apartments/ hotels back garden ... and just 50 metres away from 5A
That report is such a different scenario, with the parents driving off, that i wonder why you even bothered to post it.
You must be desperate.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: sadie on July 30, 2016, 04:09:01 PM
That is just an over reaction by the Jersey State's authorities. Had they bothered to read here they would have realised hundreds of thousands of people do it all the time and it constitutes no risk.
Oh, do share about all the people who drive off somewhere leaving their children
Purleaze do share.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 30, 2016, 04:28:43 PM
That worked roughly as expected. ?{)(**
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Lace on July 30, 2016, 04:36:35 PM
You just love stirring up a bit of hate for the McCann's don't you?
They have said it was wrong to do what they did, what more do you want, it is something they will live with for the rest of their lives and digging it up every time an article is in the paper is just sadistic and cruel IMO.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: sadie on July 30, 2016, 04:42:34 PM
drugging their kids - as suggested by the aforementioned loving parents, but wth no hint of who, with what or when.
tossing them in a bin - conjecture.
staging an abduction - Prof David Barclay wasn't convinced by the open window and shutters story,.
Loving parents is not conjecture. They have been described as such repeatedly by close friends and family. Do you doubt them? Even Faithlilly concedes that the McCanns loved their children, why is this in doubt?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 30, 2016, 09:54:08 PM
You just love stirring up a bit of hate for the McCann's don't you?
They have said it was wrong to do what they did, what more do you want, it is something they will live with for the rest of their lives and digging it up every time an article is in the paper is just sadistic and cruel IMO.
No they havent Kate called it the least of their worries She was comparing stories, BOTH involved leaving kids alone only the mccanns was worse, with 2 and 3 yr olds , with more dangers afoot there than for a 5 and eight yr old, both sets of parents culpable if their kids awoke and got into trouble!!!
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Mr Gray on July 30, 2016, 11:05:25 PM
I rather think you are missing the point. No change there then.
Yup, nail on head
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: John on July 30, 2016, 11:33:15 PM
Can anyone explain why the McCanns were subjected to Social Services inspections on their return from Portugal? Did any of the other tapas group parents who left their children alone have similar inspections?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on July 30, 2016, 11:42:33 PM
I doubt social services were involved with the rest of the tapas crew Nothing happened to their kids, no one reported them and they did nothng illegal in portugal The mccanns were suspects though in their daughters disappearance, youd expext some kind of visit
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: misty on July 30, 2016, 11:56:47 PM
I doubt social services were involved with the rest of the tapas crew Nothing happened to their kids, no one reported them and they did nothng illegal in portugal The mccanns were suspects though in their daughters disappearance, youd expext some kind of visit
Given the OTT interest by a senior English social worker on her hols near Luz, I'd say the exact opposite in respect of the rest of the Tapas group.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: sadie on July 31, 2016, 01:00:49 AM
Let's have the cite, or are you admitting to a gross exaggeration?
Lets have a cite that any sane person thinks a girl in Morocco with an orange top is Joana accompanied by Madeleine McCann who was murdered, sing along Sadie, accept it when you're wrong.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: sadie on July 31, 2016, 01:09:27 AM
Lets have a cite that any sane person thinks a girl in Morocco with an orange top is Joana accompanied by Madeleine McCann who was murdered, sing along Sadie, accept it when you're wrong.
You dont know what you are talking about.
How do YOU KNOW Madeleine isn't still alive ?
Seems SY have given The Mccanns hope, the optimism that they now show.
So you know better than SY, do you ?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on July 31, 2016, 01:12:45 AM
Loving parents is not conjecture. They have been described as such repeatedly by close friends and family. Do you doubt them? Even Faithlilly concedes that the McCanns loved their children, why is this in doubt?
Casey Anthony was also described as a 'loving parent'. Enough said !
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: sadie on July 31, 2016, 01:21:01 AM
Seems SY have given The Mccanns hope, the optimism that they now show.
So you know better than SY, do you ?
Well I never! Is this the person who still insists on telling stories about Tannerman, despite SY having almost certainly eliminated him? Apparently more than one person thinks they know better than SY.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: faithlilly on July 31, 2016, 10:30:40 AM
Casey Anthony was also acquitted. Beat that one. Dogs and all.
So was this man first time round https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/21/killer-convicted-double-jeopardy and this one http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23101232.. Your point?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 31, 2016, 11:29:07 AM
Well I never! Is this the person who still insists on telling stories about Tannerman, despite SY having almost certainly eliminated him? Apparently more than one person thinks they know better than SY.
SY have not eliminated Tannerman, they introduced another option which at the time they were favouring.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on August 01, 2016, 12:00:11 AM
SY have not eliminated Tannerman, they introduced another option which at the time they were favouring.
Try getting your facts straight
I said 'almost certainly' eliminated. If you think they were still looking at anyone taking Madeleine from G5A between 9pm and 9.30pm, watch Crimewatch again; tick tock tick tock, the time moved on. Smithman was a replacement, not an alternative. Tannerman as an abductor is not a fact, despite your posts suggesting he is.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on August 01, 2016, 08:11:15 AM
If someone had been seated on an armchair in the apartment at around 2100 which had vanished from its locus by 2200 ... what would you think about the sighting of a person who was witnessed carrying a matching armchair away from the vicinity of the premises at around 2115?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 01, 2016, 08:59:20 AM
If someone had been seated on an armchair in the apartment at around 2100 which had vanished from its locus by 2200 ... what would you think about the sighting of a person who was witnessed carrying a matching armchair away from the vicinity of the premises at around 2115?
I can see where you're coming from. It is tempting to put one and one together and get two. But there also could actually be multiple other reasons that could result in the same pattern of these two sightings.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: John on August 01, 2016, 09:50:20 AM
If someone had been seated on an armchair in the apartment at around 2100 which had vanished from its locus by 2200 ... what would you think about the sighting of a person who was witnessed carrying a matching armchair away from the vicinity of the premises at around 2115?
The thing about Tannerman/Crechman is that their appearance and clothing matched rather well. Add to that the fact that they carried a small child which was also similarly clad, introduce the timng and the chances that Crechman was Tannerman is not absolute but very compelling. I don't think Redwood would have stuck his neck out on live national TV if he wasn't reasonably convinced. What worries me about this though is why Crechman never came forward to clear this up years ago and why even now he was gven anonymity when others in Portugal haven't?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Angelo222 on August 01, 2016, 10:09:22 AM
The thing about Tannerman/Crechman is that their appearance and clothing matched rather well. Add to that the fact that they carried a small child which was also similarly clad, introduce the timng and the chances that Crechman was Tannerman is not absolute but very compelling. I don't think Redwood would have stuck his neck out on live national TV if he wasn't reasonably convinced. What worries me about this though is why Crechman never came forward to clear this up years ago and why even now he was gven anonymity when others in Portugal haven't?
Clearly there is one law here in England and another in Portugal.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on August 01, 2016, 10:55:17 AM
The thing about Tannerman/Crechman is that their appearance and clothing matched rather well. Add to that the fact that they carried a small child which was also similarly clad, introduce the timng and the chances that Crechman was Tannerman is not absolute but very compelling. I don't think Redwood would have stuck his neck out on live national TV if he wasn't reasonably convinced. What worries me about this though is why Crechman never came forward to clear this up years ago and why even now he was gven anonymity when others in Portugal haven't?
One article (posted on here ages ago) stated that he did go the police back in 2007 - but it didn't state which police. If he did, then his statement may have been overlooked until the review.
I never got the impression that Redwood had formally eliminated Tannerman, but believed that there was a strong possibility that Crčcheman was Tannerman. The point being, IMO, was to give more emphasis to Smithman to try to jog memories of that later timeframe.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 01, 2016, 11:57:13 AM
One article (posted on here ages ago) stated that he did go the police back in 2007 - but it didn't state which police. If he did, then his statement may have been overlooked until the review.
I never got the impression that Redwood had formally eliminated Tannerman, but believed that there was a strong possibility that Crčcheman was Tannerman. The point being, IMO, was to give more emphasis to Smithman to try to jog memories of that later timeframe.
The way I took the emphasis on Smithman was SY hinting they know who he is but gently pressing on his conscience to hand himself in a finally tell what happened back in PdL. If I can work out who it was surely they can too.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on August 01, 2016, 11:59:33 AM
One article (posted on here ages ago) stated that he did go the police back in 2007 - but it didn't state which police. If he did, then his statement may have been overlooked until the review.
I never got the impression that Redwood had formally eliminated Tannerman, but believed that there was a strong possibility that Crčcheman was Tannerman. The point being, IMO, was to give more emphasis to Smithman to try to jog memories of that later timeframe.
My first thought when the DCI made the announcement was one of relief for Jane Tanner. After years of being vilified as a liar, her sighting of a man carrying a child was verified. The burden of years of thinking she had witnessed Madeleine being carried off by her kidnapper was lifted at a stroke. But the more I thought about the wording of the statement the more it led me back to square one.
On the night of the third at least three unidentified men with a child were allegedly abroad on the streets of Luz.
Each one carried a barefoot pyjama clad sleeping girl with blonde hair. None had bothered to wrap the child up against the chill of the evening.
One sighting was reported when the police arrived to conduct the search for a missing child. One sighting was reported nearly a fortnight later. We do not have definitive knowledge of when the third was reported.
If the man Jane Tanner saw had just exited the car park at block 5 to be picked up by a nearby vehicle it could explain why he wasn't seen by anyone else. It is remarkable that the man the Smiths say they saw was seen by no-one outwith that location. It is also remarkable that the man who carried his daughter back from a creche somewhere? walked from there passing block 5 to his destination without being seen by anyone other than Jane Tanner.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: John on August 01, 2016, 12:39:06 PM
My first thought when the DCI made the announcement was one of relief for Jane Tanner. After years of being vilified as a liar, her sighting of a man carrying a child was verified. The burden of years of thinking she had witnessed Madeleine being carried off by her kidnapper was lifted at a stroke. But the more I thought about the wording of the statement the more it led me back to square one.
On the night of the third at least three unidentified men with a child were allegedly abroad on the streets of Luz.
Each one carried a barefoot pyjama clad sleeping girl with blonde hair. None had bothered to wrap the child up against the chill of the evening.
One sighting was reported when the police arrived to conduct the search for a missing child. One sighting was reported nearly a fortnight later. We do not have definitive knowledge of when the third was reported.
If the man Jane Tanner saw had just exited the car park at block 5 to be picked up by a nearby vehicle it could explain why he wasn't seen by anyone else. It is remarkable that the man the Smiths say they saw was seen by no-one outwith that location. It is also remarkable that the man who carried his daughter back from a creche somewhere? walked from there passing block 5 to his destination without being seen by anyone other than Jane Tanner.
I see the goings on during that 45 minute time frame from 9.15pm until 10pm as a combination of remarkable events and coincidences. Little wonder so many people have spent such a long time pouring over it. Bloody confusing or what?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on August 01, 2016, 11:26:39 PM
On the night of the third at least three unidentified men with a child were allegedly abroad on the streets of Luz.
Each one carried a barefoot pyjama clad sleeping girl with blonde hair.
Tanner didnt see past the bare feet and Crecheman /Redwood havent said the daughter had blonde hair, (did he?)so? How did you make it three blonde girls?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on August 01, 2016, 11:42:16 PM
One article (posted on here ages ago) stated that he did go the police back in 2007 - but it didn't state which police. If he did, then his statement may have been overlooked until the review.
I never got the impression that Redwood had formally eliminated Tannerman, but believed that there was a strong possibility that Crčcheman was Tannerman. The point being, IMO, was to give more emphasis to Smithman to try to jog memories of that later timeframe.
Tanner didnt see past the bare feet and Crecheman /Redwood havent said the daughter had blonde hair, (did he?)so? How did you make it three blonde girls?
Everything else seemed to match ... why not the hair colouring? However my error pales into insignificance when measured against the failure of the investigation to check out the information supplied to them at the time when it might have been of some use in recovering Madeleine. Saving ten years of grief for her and her family.
It is interesting that the information was imparted round about the time that Mr Amaral was preparing his case against and indeed his coup de grace on the parents of the child he had given up for dead.
Shattering to think that concentration on the flawed understanding of the significance of the VRD alerts combined with misinterpretation of the forensic results may have led - in the opinion of ex-Met Police chief Peter Kirkham - to the failure look at other lines of enquiry.
Madeleine McCann: Anyone saying they were carrying a child around when Maddy disappeared should have been investigated
**Snip Questions will be asked as to why the relevance of the information was not recognised earlier.
While there may have been an oversight by Leicestershire Police, there are two things we should remember.
They did not have access to all the material collected during the investigation and full responsibility for the case remained with the Portuguese at that time.
In their liaison role, they may have simply forwarded the questionnaires to Portuguese police without analysing them themselves.
Even if they did consider the content, they may not have realised the relevance without access to all of the material.
The information should have been recognised as of great relevance by the Portuguese police.
I would have expected any person saying they were innocently carrying a child at around the relevant time and place to be investigated and cross-referenced with other witness accounts.
That said, in a high-profile investigation, so much information floods in that it is all too easy for a crucial item to get lost.
At that time, the main focus of the investigation centred on the interpretation of the DNA evidence which had been recently made available.
This may have led to other potential lines of enquiry being overlooked.
No matter what the explanation, the fact that this “new” witness was in the system all along illustrates why case reviews are so important.
A review of all material, by new pairs of eyes and with the benefit of hindsight, almost always identifies something which has been overlooked.
In this case, it appears to have changed the basic understanding of what may have happened on Thursday, May 3, 2007. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-anyone-saying-were-2965383
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on August 02, 2016, 01:38:54 AM
what else matched? The only thing that "matched" was a small child
A small child was missing therefore that was a most compelling match. Perhaps if the investigation had focused more on collating and following through on the information it seems they had to hand other lines of inquiry might have been opened up.
Perhaps if Mr Amaral had organised his team to do the donkey work of working through the information held for example, on people carrying small children at the relative time we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Brietta on August 02, 2016, 02:51:27 AM
In the I link posted earlier a former police chief expresses the opinion that an important investigative opportunity was missed when "information should have been recognised as of great relevance by the Portuguese police" was received at a time when "the main focus of the investigation centred on the interpretation of the DNA evidence which had been recently made available". http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-anyone-saying-were-2965383
The focus on DNA evidence was of course after the visit of the dogs when the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance formally became the investigation into Madeleine's parents with all that entailed.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Carana on August 02, 2016, 11:04:44 AM
LP was responsible for collating UK-based enquiries, but he may have gone to his local cop shop, which then forgot to pass it on. Anyone, assuming he did indeed contact the cops, someone screwed up.
And Redwood said "almost certain", so that's a bit stronger than a strong probability, but still not a formal elimination. I don't really see how they could formally eliminate Tannerman without some other form of corroboration (eg CCTV).
DCI Redwood said in October: “Our focus in terms of understanding what happened on the night of May 3 has now given us a shift of emphasis. We are almost certain that the man seen by Jane Tanner is not Madeleine’s abductor.
“It takes us through to a position at 10pm when we see another man who is walking towards the ocean, close by to the apartment, with a young child in his arms.”
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on August 02, 2016, 01:50:47 PM
Everything else seemed to match ... why not the hair colouring? However my error pales into insignificance when measured against the failure of the investigation to check out the information supplied to them at the time when it might have been of some use in recovering Madeleine. Saving ten years of grief for her and her family.
It is interesting that the information was imparted round about the time that Mr Amaral was preparing his case against and indeed his coup de grace on the parents of the child he had given up for dead.
Shattering to think that concentration on the flawed understanding of the significance of the VRD alerts combined with misinterpretation of the forensic results may have led - in the opinion of ex-Met Police chief Peter Kirkham - to the failure look at other lines of enquiry.
Madeleine McCann: Anyone saying they were carrying a child around when Maddy disappeared should have been investigated
**Snip Questions will be asked as to why the relevance of the information was not recognised earlier.
While there may have been an oversight by Leicestershire Police, there are two things we should remember.
They did not have access to all the material collected during the investigation and full responsibility for the case remained with the Portuguese at that time.
In their liaison role, they may have simply forwarded the questionnaires to Portuguese police without analysing them themselves.
Even if they did consider the content, they may not have realised the relevance without access to all of the material.
The information should have been recognised as of great relevance by the Portuguese police.
I would have expected any person saying they were innocently carrying a child at around the relevant time and place to be investigated and cross-referenced with other witness accounts.
That said, in a high-profile investigation, so much information floods in that it is all too easy for a crucial item to get lost.
At that time, the main focus of the investigation centred on the interpretation of the DNA evidence which had been recently made available.
This may have led to other potential lines of enquiry being overlooked.
No matter what the explanation, the fact that this “new” witness was in the system all along illustrates why case reviews are so important.
A review of all material, by new pairs of eyes and with the benefit of hindsight, almost always identifies something which has been overlooked.
In this case, it appears to have changed the basic understanding of what may have happened on Thursday, May 3, 2007. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-anyone-saying-were-2965383
Firstly, the only thing that 'matched' with the Tanner sighting was a child with bare feet, seen from the knees down. The Smiths, on the other hand, saw a child of the right age with the right hair length and colour.
Secondly, no-one knows when the information from Crechedad came into the hands of the police, or even which police, so it's not correct to say that the PJ were busy with other things at the time;
[At that time, the main focus of the investigation centred on the interpretation of the DNA evidence which had been recently made available]
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2016, 10:03:48 PM
what else matched? The only thing that "matched" was a small child
And palish pinkish patterned pyjamas with something around the hem
And a man dressed somewhat similarly in all three descriptions.
Tannermans hair and Crechmans hair do not appear to match and neither does Smithmans hair.
What I cannot understand is where the man labelled as Crechman was coming from? OC creche was NOT in that direction; it was almost in the opposite direction. Neither can I understand where Smithman was coming from. No creches in the direction he was coming from either.
So where were they coming from?
Furthermore if these three (one?) men were carrying their own daughter, didn't they care enough to bother to keep her warm on that cool gusty night? Didn't they worry about her uncovered feet? I remember reading somewhere that Jane was wearing Russells fleece because it was so chilly.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on August 02, 2016, 11:12:35 PM
LP was responsible for collating UK-based enquiries, but he may have gone to his local cop shop, which then forgot to pass it on. Anyone, assuming he did indeed contact the cops, someone screwed up.
And Redwood said "almost certain", so that's a bit stronger than a strong probability, but still not a formal elimination. I don't really see how they could formally eliminate Tannerman without some other form of corroboration (eg CCTV).
DCI Redwood said in October: “Our focus in terms of understanding what happened on the night of May 3 has now given us a shift of emphasis. We are almost certain that the man seen by Jane Tanner is not Madeleine’s abductor.
“It takes us through to a position at 10pm when we see another man who is walking towards the ocean, close by to the apartment, with a young child in his arms.”
You are speculating there, I doubt any policeman stuck stuff in draws and forgot about them in a huge case like this...oh hang on...
As for redwood/sy they must have had very good reasons to eliminate tannerman when they knew they couodnt prove he was the "abductor"
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 02, 2016, 11:49:01 PM
LP was responsible for collating UK-based enquiries, but he may have gone to his local cop shop, which then forgot to pass it on. Anyone, assuming he did indeed contact the cops, someone screwed up.
And Redwood said "almost certain", so that's a bit stronger than a strong probability, but still not a formal elimination. I don't really see how they could formally eliminate Tannerman without some other form of corroboration (eg CCTV).
DCI Redwood said in October: “Our focus in terms of understanding what happened on the night of May 3 has now given us a shift of emphasis. We are almost certain that the man seen by Jane Tanner is not Madeleine’s abductor.
“It takes us through to a position at 10pm when we see another man who is walking towards the ocean, close by to the apartment, with a young child in his arms.”
But you can't effectively bury a body in the sand with your bare hands! Doesn't make sense to think Smithman was doing anything wrong. What sort of places would be between where the sighting took place and the beach?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 03, 2016, 12:30:53 AM
But you can't effectively bury a body in the sand with your bare hands! Doesn't make sense to think Smithman was doing anything wrong. What sort of places would be between where the sighting took place and the beach?
Restaurants, pubs, an ATM, the main Luz bus stop, a 7-11 type convenience store. And of course the church.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 03, 2016, 01:12:30 AM
Restaurants, pubs, an ATM, the main Luz bus stop, a 7-11 type convenience store. And of course the church.
Thanks Shinning I read that the church gave out its key to visitors to PDL e.g Kate and Gerry got one. Is this usual practice? Would any of those other places have been open at 10:00 - 11:00 on that Thursday night?
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: G-Unit on August 03, 2016, 10:15:08 AM
Thanks Shinning I read that the church gave out its key to visitors to PDL e.g Kate and Gerry got one. Is this usual practice? Would any of those other places have been open at 10:00 - 11:00 on that Thursday night?
I don't think it was usual to hand out church keys. The priest said;
He gave them the key to the church on the 7th or 8th May upon the suggestion of John Geraghty, a resident of the parish, so that they could calmly go to the church without any media pressure. Someone from the church gave the key to John Geraghty, who then passed it on to the McCann's, with Father Pacheco's permission. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FATHER_PACHECO.htm
Mr Geraghty was very helpful from the beginning. He stored the McCann's hire car when they left Portugal because the McCann's lawyers, Kingsley Napley, advised hanging onto it for a while. He eventually returned it to the hire company.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 13, 2016, 01:13:58 PM
I don't think it was usual to hand out church keys. The priest said;
He gave them the key to the church on the 7th or 8th May upon the suggestion of John Geraghty, a resident of the parish, so that they could calmly go to the church without any media pressure. Someone from the church gave the key to John Geraghty, who then passed it on to the McCann's, with Father Pacheco's permission. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FATHER_PACHECO.htm
Mr Geraghty was very helpful from the beginning. He stored the McCann's hire car when they left Portugal because the McCann's lawyers, Kingsley Napley, advised hanging onto it for a while. He eventually returned it to the hire company.
Do people really need buildings to pray to an invisible God who is....everywhere anyway? Questions :why did she need a priest, access to a church, and a pope visit? did she want to confess and be forgiven of something, well probably not because they said they did nothing wrong. it was the abductors fault.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2016, 02:06:04 PM
Do people really need buildings to pray to an invisible God who is....everywhere anyway? Questions :why did she need a priest, access to a church, and a pope visit? did she want to confess and be forgiven of something, well probably not because they said they did nothing wrong. it was the abductors fault.
Take philosophical discussion elsewhere and leave poor Kate and Gerry the freedom and right to deal with their shock and trauma the way that is right for them.
Title: Re: Documentaries & Articles for Discussion
Post by: mercury on August 14, 2016, 01:44:04 AM
I will agree with you there FM Whether one believes them or not no one knows for definite so the benefit of the doubt can be out in favour of the possiblity they wanted guidance refuge the power of prayer they believed in and spiritual whatever
At th end of the day no one knows them or what happened I certainly dont trust or believe them You assert thngs though out with your knowledge as fact, and that is totally wrong