Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: kizzy on June 16, 2018, 09:47:29 AM
Title: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: kizzy on June 16, 2018, 09:47:29 AM
Wonder what the police would have done if mrs Fenn had called them
- and they found the children alone.
92
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 16, 2018, 10:28:19 AM
Wonder what the police would have done if mrs Fenn had called them
- and they found the children alone.
Just as well, she didn't , she got the stone cold response when asked if she could help by calling the police, when asked what was going on...
I wonder why Mrs Fenn didn't say they told her Maddie was abducted!!
Mrs Fenn offered to contact the police and they declined her offer. they never mentioned abduction to her. or anyone else- they were looking for a ,'missing child'- as if she had wandered off...
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: John on June 16, 2018, 12:39:34 PM
Wonder what the police would have done if mrs Fenn had called them
- and they found the children alone.
That's an excellent point kizzy and I don't think it has been touched on previously. I believe had that happened we would not be here discussing this case as the disappearance would never have occurred.
As for the parents I think they would have received a flea in their ear about the perils of leaving young children unattended.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2018, 12:41:07 PM
That's an excellent point kizzy and I don't think it has been touched on previously. I believe had that happened we would not be here discussing this case as the disappearance would never have happened.
depends if mrs fenns testimony is correct....I suspect it is not
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: John on June 16, 2018, 12:45:36 PM
depends if mrs fenns testimony is correct....I suspect it is not
We have discussed Mrs Fenns experience in detail including how the crying stopped immediately the patio door to 5a was opened. I think it is disingenuous for anyone to attempt to undermine Mrs Fenn's evidence.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 16, 2018, 01:20:10 PM
The OC would only have intervened if there was a complaint. They rent out apartments, it's not up to them to tell people how to parent their kids.
That's right, it would have been solely between the GNR, the parents and the complainant. I certainly received a bollicking in Spanish when my three-year-old decided to wander off on a Palma beach so I guess leaving three children alone in an unlocked apartment would have attract a slightly heavier response.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 16, 2018, 01:33:39 PM
Doesn't matter. What would the PJ have done when they found the kids alone and the OC staff aware of that?
Yes the ocean staff should bare the blame. OR It could be that they were not the slightest bit interested in the Tapas and felt it was their decision to leave the kids alone.
I suspect IF Mrs Fen or anyone else mentioned their concern this would have been dismissed out of hand. I am basing this on the parents evidence that 'kate was concerned and spoke to Fi on the matter- thus leaving a door unlocked, and Gerry over ruling her. Also, that heart breaking claim that Maddie her self spoke to the parents about being left alone. My God if the worried and perhaps scared child herself was dismissed then WHO was going to change their minds? really seriously folks.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 16, 2018, 01:34:43 PM
The OC would only have intervened if there was a complaint. They rent out apartments, it's not up to them to tell people how to parent their kids.
There was more to it than that. Silvia Batista claimed in an interview (traces only are left now) that she offered the McCanns babysitting services on the Thursday. I took that to mean Mrs Fenn had complained and OC had taken some action to correct the situation.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 16, 2018, 01:35:47 PM
That's right, it would have been solely between the GNR, the parents and the complainant. I certainly received a bollicking in Spanish when my three-year-old decided to wander off on a Palma beach so I guess leaving three children alone in an unlocked apartment would have attract a slightly heavier response.
mmm indeed and if it was in this country even worse!
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 16, 2018, 01:36:53 PM
Yes the ocean staff should bare the blame. OR It could be that they were not the slightest bit interested in the Tapas and felt it was their decision to leave the kids alone.
I suspect IF Mrs Fen or anyone else mentioned their concern this would have been dismissed out of hand. I am basing this on the parents evidence that 'kate was concerned and spoke to Fi on the matter- thus leaving a door unlocked, and Gerry over ruling her. Also, that heart breaking claim that Maddie her self spoke to the parents about being left alone. My God if the worried and perhaps scared child herself was dismissed then WHO was going to change their minds? really seriously folks.
OC could have warned the McCanns that they will call the police themselves.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 16, 2018, 01:41:13 PM
OC could have warned the McCanns that they will call the police themselves.
You can deploy whatever tactic you like to preserve the McCanns 'abduction' theory, However, to place the responsibility about leaving the children alone on other people is a bit rich to be honest.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: John on June 16, 2018, 01:44:38 PM
There was more to it than that. Silvia Batista claimed in an interview (traces only are left now) that she offered the McCanns babysitting services on the Thursday. I took that to mean Mrs Fenn had complained and OC had taken some action to correct the situation.
That's interesting Rob. Mrs Fenn is annoyed by crying on the Tuesday evening and the housekeeper approaches the parents on the Thursday.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 16, 2018, 01:52:52 PM
Doesn't matter. What would the PJ have done when they found the kids alone and the OC staff aware of that?
In that scenario, the PJ wouldn't have been called in, it would still have been the GNR.
Her first reaction was to chat to her friend, Edna about hearing a child crying. Neither seemed particularly anxious, presumably, as she could have called the GNR or even the OC.
Was she in fact sure where the sound was coming from? Edna was never interviewed to corroborate that account, let alone the time, and Mrs Fenn herself wasn't interviewed until some time in August despite being the neighbour directly above.
A sound reconstruction of that account might have been helpful as well: she was elderly and may have had hearing difficulties and early '90s buildings aren't generally best known for their acoustic insulation properties.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: kizzy on June 16, 2018, 02:32:00 PM
That's right, it would have been solely between the GNR, the parents and the complainant. I certainly received a bollicking in Spanish when my three-year-old decided to wander off on a Palma beach so I guess leaving three children alone in an unlocked apartment would have attract a slightly heavier response.
Yes and especially if they had been worse for ware with alcohol - like imo they could have been.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: kizzy on June 16, 2018, 02:33:15 PM
In that scenario, the PJ wouldn't have been called in, it would still have been the GNR.
Her first reaction was to chat to her friend, Edna about hearing a child crying. Neither seemed particularly anxious, presumably, as she could have called the GNR or even the OC.
Was she in fact sure where the sound was coming from? Edna was never interviewed to corroborate that account, let alone the time, and Mrs Fenn herself wasn't interviewed until some time in August despite being the neighbour directly above.
A sound reconstruction of that account might have been helpful as well: she was elderly and may have had hearing difficulties and early '90s buildings aren't generally best known for their acoustic insulation properties.
If insulation not to good all the more she would hear the crying - for over an hour.
Its amazing the twins didn't wake as well - all three of them crying.
But as we know the twins sleep through anything.
Even after being told about the crying - they still went out ..for crying out loud.
Every night going out leaving the children - then the very last night maddie goes missing.
Never to be seen again,
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Carana on June 16, 2018, 02:41:08 PM
If insulation not to good all the more she would hear the crying - for over an hour.
Its amazing the twins didn't wake as well - all three of them crying.
But as we know the twins sleep through anything.
Even after being told about the crying - they still went out ..for crying out loud.
Every night going out leaving the children - then the very last night maddie goes missing.
Never to be seen again,
Not in my experience, and I don't have hearing difficulties. My own experiences don't reflect the reality of what she heard, or thought she heard, obviously, but I have lived in similar buildings and have had reason to want to call the police for more serious concerns than a child crying at some point before midnight. I later discovered that the sound wasn't at all coming from where I had assumed it to be.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 16, 2018, 02:46:43 PM
In that scenario, the PJ wouldn't have been called in, it would still have been the GNR.
Her first reaction was to chat to her friend, Edna about hearing a child crying. Neither seemed particularly anxious, presumably, as she could have called the GNR or even the OC.
Was she in fact sure where the sound was coming from? Edna was never interviewed to corroborate that account, let alone the time, and Mrs Fenn herself wasn't interviewed until some time in August despite being the neighbour directly above.
A sound reconstruction of that account might have been helpful as well: she was elderly and may have had hearing difficulties and early '90s buildings aren't generally best known for their acoustic insulation properties.
It has been established that at the time Mrs Fen would not know the children were being left alone every night. it has also been established thatit was coming from the McCann apartment- Maddie asked her parents where they were- she was aware they were being left alone- but still the parents left them alone again after this conversation with Maddie- so even if she were imagining it or was tone deaf, Maddie mentioned it. Sorry not getting away with this; it was other peoples responsibility to 'do something'.
I am shocked that some are even mentioning others responsibility and failing to criticize the behaviour of the parents who had the ultimate responsibility.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2018, 02:59:01 PM
We have discussed Mrs Fenns experience in detail including how the crying stopped immediately the patio door to 5a was opened. I think it is disingenuous for anyone to attempt to undermine Mrs Fenn's evidence.
I think Mrs Fenn is mistaken if she thought she Heard crying from 5a for an hour and a half
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: kizzy on June 16, 2018, 02:59:55 PM
Not in my experience, and I don't have hearing difficulties. My own experiences don't reflect the reality of what she heard, or thought she heard, obviously, but I have lived in similar buildings and have had reason to want to call the police for more serious concerns than a child crying at some point before midnight. I later discovered that the sound wasn't at all coming from where I had assumed it to be.
think its wrong to post excuses - your experience is nothing like mrs fenn imo
They were holiday apartments [ basic] no carpets she will have know were the crying was coming from.
no one else said it was there child
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2018, 03:00:29 PM
There was more to it than that. Silvia Batista claimed in an interview (traces only are left now) that she offered the McCanns babysitting services on the Thursday. I took that to mean Mrs Fenn had complained and OC had taken some action to correct the situation.
Do you have a cite to support any of this... It may well be mythical
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: kizzy on June 16, 2018, 03:01:30 PM
It has been established that at the time Mrs Fen would not know the children were being left alone every night. it has also been established thatit was coming from the McCann apartment- Maddie asked her parents where they were- she was aware they were being left alone- but still the parents left them alone again after this conversation with Maddie- so even if she were imagining it or was tone deaf, Maddie mentioned it. Sorry not getting away with this; it was other peoples responsibility to 'do something'.
I am shocked that some are even mentioning others responsibility and failing to criticize the behaviour of the parents who had the ultimate responsibility.
This conjures up many possibilities imo.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2018, 03:02:46 PM
What I find not surprising is that Mrs Fenns uncorroborated statement is, treated as absolute fact... It isnt
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 16, 2018, 03:08:16 PM
What I find not surprising is that Mrs Fenns uncorroborated statement is, treated as absolute fact... It isnt
Are you suggesting that Kate was lying when she mentioned that Maddie asked them where they werewhen they were crying? Are you also suggesting that Maddie didn't know there was crying in their room by the children? or are you just doing 'a Kate'? slag off anyone who does not agree with her ?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Lace on June 16, 2018, 03:08:41 PM
I have mentioned before, but I will mention it again, I believe the crying was the Tuesday night. Kate mentioned to Fiona that Madeleine had said she and Sean had been crying. On the Tuesday night Amelie woke up crying, in my opinion this then woke Sean and Madeleine, Sean cried and then Madeleine called 'Daddy daddy' and went into the McCann's bedroom.
Children of almost four don't understand the meaning of 'last night, the night before etc.' my daughter always said 'yesterday' when she meant anytime before the present day.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 16, 2018, 03:09:17 PM
I have mentioned before, but I will mention it again, I believe the crying was the Tuesday night. Kate mentioned to Fiona that Madeleine had said she and Sean had been crying. On the Tuesday night Amelie woke up crying, in my opinion this then woke Sean and Madeleine, Sean cried and then Madeleine called 'Daddy daddy' and went into the McCann's bedroom.
Children of almost four don't understand the meaning of 'last night, the night before etc.' my daughter always said 'yesterday' when she meant anytime before the present day.
But that’s not what even the McCanns say.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2018, 03:15:41 PM
Are you suggesting that Kate was lying when she mentioned that Maddie asked them where they werewhen they were crying? Are you also suggesting that Maddie didn't know there was crying in their room by the children? or are you just doing 'a Kate'? slag off anyone who does not agree with her ?
What I'm saying is Mrs fenns statement is uncorroborated...
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Lace on June 16, 2018, 03:19:54 PM
When questioned about the statement given by Mrs. Fenn they said it wasn't true that Madeleine cried on the Tuesday night and came into their room.
In my opinion Kate only thought Madeleine might have been disturbed on the Wednesday night because she found a stain on her pyjama's which she thought might have been someone trying to sedate her.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 16, 2018, 03:20:05 PM
No they don't say that, and funnily enough they were there that night... well for some of it anyway, but that won't stop people for taking an eraser and re writing what should have happened.
The scrutiny, ie police investigation, certainly crushed most of it. That is what makes em the baddie in all this.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 16, 2018, 03:24:07 PM
When questioned about the statement given by Mrs. Fenn they said it wasn't true that Madeleine cried on the Tuesday night and came into their room.
In my opinion Kate only thought Madeleine might have been disturbed on the Wednesday night because she found a stain on her pyjama's which she thought might have been someone trying to sedate her.
hmmm oh really. the stain was a drug to sedate was it, well Kate being an anaesthetist would know what kind of sedating drug this would be does she mention this, I mean if she suspected her daughter of being drugged by someone then why did she go out and leave her alone to be drugged again? Why would anyone want to drug a child?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Lace on June 16, 2018, 03:27:58 PM
No they don't say that, and funnily enough they were there that night... well for some of it anyway, but that won't stop people for taking an eraser and re writing what should have happened.
The scrutiny, ie police investigation, certainly crushed most of it. That is what makes em the baddie in all this.
The McCann's said they didn't know when the crying that Madeleine was talking about took place and that Madeleine dismissed it and walked away.
It seems to me that you are taking an eraser and re writing what should have happened, how many times have we heard 'Madeleine cried the night before' no that is not true, the McCann's themselves don't know when the crying incident took place. In my opionion it was the Tuesday night.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Lace on June 16, 2018, 03:31:12 PM
hmmm oh really. the stain was a drug to sedate was it, well Kate being an anaesthetist would know what kind of sedating drug this would be does she mention this, I mean if she suspected her daughter of being drugged by someone then why did she go out and leave her alone to be drugged again? Why would anyone want to drug a child?
[ removed ] Kate found the stain on Madeleines pyjama's the morning of the 3rd of May, how was she supposed to know that Madeleine was going to disappear? An abductor trying to sedate her child would never have entered her head, a tea stain I think she thought it was at the time.
How would Kate know what every sedating drug would look like?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: John on June 16, 2018, 03:38:24 PM
[ removed ] Kate found the stain on Madeleines pyjama's the morning of the 3rd of May, how was she supposed to know that Madeleine was going to disappear? An abductor trying to sedate her child would never have entered her head, a tea stain I think she thought it was at the time.
How would Kate know what every sedating drug would look like?
Well she must know... she mentions it- all be it after the fact. filed in the 'just remembered' file. The parents can't recall which night their daughter cried- oh how convenient as long at it shows up Mrs Fen and their daughter to be wrong then that is all good and well.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 16, 2018, 04:25:56 PM
No because factually it is an uncorroborated statement... Do you disagree.. Who has corroborated it
So is Kate’s claim that the window was open when she entered the children’s bedroom ? Multiple witnesses failed to see it. Is that an uncorroborated statement was too because it’s the only spec of evidence that speaks of abduction ?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 16, 2018, 04:27:38 PM
When questioned about the statement given by Mrs. Fenn they said it wasn't true that Madeleine cried on the Tuesday night and came into their room.
In my opinion Kate only thought Madeleine might have been disturbed on the Wednesday night because she found a stain on her pyjama's which she thought might have been someone trying to sedate her.
But they weren’t there when Madeleine cried so how would they know?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2018, 04:28:18 PM
So is Kate’s claim that the window was open when she entered the children’s bedroom ? Multiple witnesses failed to see it. Is that an uncorroborated statement was too because it’s the only spec of evidence that speaks of abduction ?
Of course it's uncorroborated....as is mrs Fenns statement...
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 16, 2018, 04:31:37 PM
[ removed ] Kate found the stain on Madeleines pyjama's the morning of the 3rd of May, how was she supposed to know that Madeleine was going to disappear? An abductor trying to sedate her child would never have entered her head, a tea stain I think she thought it was at the time.
How would Kate know what every sedating drug would look like?
So how was this liquid drug administered, how long did it take to work and why wasn’t Madeleine displaying the after effects the next day ( or she wasn’t in any of Kate’s statements, not until Madeleine. Nice but not too clever bit of retrofitting)?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 16, 2018, 04:33:31 PM
Ah but mine are supported by independent evidence, that's the difference my good fellow.
Evidence comes in many forms... One is weak... I believe the evidence that supports your belief is extremely weak... I think the evidence for abduction is far stronger... As do SY it seems
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2018, 04:57:08 PM
Evidence comes in many forms... One is weak... I believe the evidence that supports your belief is extremely weak... I think the evidence for abduction is far stronger... As do SY it seems
I’m not talking about abduction, I’m talking about independent evidence for the open window. If you can’t supply it then I’m afraid Kate’s statement carry’s the same weight as Mrs Fenn’s.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 16, 2018, 05:33:10 PM
Evidence comes in many forms... One is weak... I believe the evidence that supports your belief is extremely weak... I think the evidence for abduction is far stronger... As do SY it seems
The truth is that there is no evidence that Maddie was abducted so if your claim about SY is right then they have wasted 11 million quid on what amounts to nothing more than a wild goose chase. In any event it is the Portuguese police who maintain primacy in this case and they aren't looking for any abductor imo.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Carana on June 16, 2018, 05:45:55 PM
The truth is that there is no evidence that Maddie was abducted so if your claim about SY is right then they have wasted 11 million quid on what amounts to nothing more than a wild goose chase. In any event it is the Portuguese police who maintain primacy in this case and they aren't looking for any abductor imo.
..
You don't know what evidence SY have... The PJ seem to be doing nothing except allowing SY to investigate... But they have said clearly there is no evidence, against the mccanns
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 16, 2018, 05:59:32 PM
You don't know what evidence SY have... The PJ seem to be doing nothing except allowing SY to investigate... But they have said clearly there is no evidence, against the mccanns
So the independent evidence for the open window?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Lace on June 16, 2018, 05:59:45 PM
The truth is that there is no evidence that Maddie was abducted so if your claim about SY is right then they have wasted 11 million quid on what amounts to nothing more than a wild goose chase. In any event it is the Portuguese police who maintain primacy in this case and they aren't looking for any abductor imo.
There is evidence that Madeleine was abducted, she was asleep in her bed, a window was open which had been closed when the McCann's left the apartment and Madeleine has not been found.
What evidence of abduction was there for Sarah Payne? If her brother hadn't seen the white van there wouldn't have been any, just a child disappeared.
What evidence for April Jones? If her friend hadn't seen her getting in that car there wouldn't have been any evidence apart from the fact she was playing outside and then disappeared.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 16, 2018, 06:01:44 PM
There is evidence that Madeleine was abducted, she was asleep in her bed, a window was open which had been closed when the McCann's left the apartment and Madeleine has not been found.
What evidence of abduction was there for Sarah Payne? If her brother hadn't seen the white van there wouldn't have been any, just a child disappeared.
What evidence for April Jones? If her friend hadn't seen her getting in that car there wouldn't have been any evidence apart from the fact she was playing outside and then disappeared.
Each one of those cases had witnesses to the crime.
Where is the evidence that the window was open when Kate entered the room?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Lace on June 16, 2018, 06:04:04 PM
There is evidence that Madeleine was abducted, she was asleep in her bed, a window was open which had been closed when the McCann's left the apartment and Madeleine has not been found.
That's not evidence. We only have her parents word for what you offer and Kate McCann's fingerprints on the window.
On the other hand we have the evidence from two tracker dogs that she walked out of 5a and was lifted across the road from mini reception. Woke, wandered and was abducted.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 16, 2018, 06:43:50 PM
Actualment didn't Matt say it was closed when he did his ear check?
He did but that’s not what I’m seeking evidence of.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 16, 2018, 06:51:02 PM
Now back to the Fenn files. Mrs Fenn heard the child crying daddy on the Tuesday night for over an hour. Maddie allegedly told her mother that she and Sean had cried the night before ie Wednesday night. So we have crying episodes each night culminating in Maddie's disappearance. Add to that the twins drowsiness and inability to wake up even during all the commotion and wailing and that for me is doggone suspicious.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2018, 07:02:09 PM
That's not evidence. We only have her parents word for what you offer and Kate McCann's fingerprints on the window.
On the other hand we have the evidence from two tracker dogs that she walked out of 5a and was lifted across the road from mini reception. Woke, wandered and was abducted.
from wahti hve read their evidence is unreliable and this seems to be confirmed in the files by the handlers
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2018, 07:03:48 PM
Now back to the Fenn files. Mrs Fenn heard the child crying daddy on the Tuesday night for over an hour. Maddie allegedly told her mother that she and Sean had cried the night before ie Wednesday night. So we have crying episodes each night culminating in Maddie's disappearance. Add to that the twins drowsiness and inability to wake up even during all the commotion and wailing and that for me is doggone suspicious.
looks like the investigating police dont agree with you...and mrs fenns statement is uncorroborated
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 16, 2018, 07:06:25 PM
looks like the investigating police dont agree with you...and mrs fenns statement is uncorroborated
It will have been corroborated by her friend and Silvia Batista or do you think the PJ are so stupid as to not check such things? Not everything the police did is reflected in the files.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2018, 07:07:10 PM
It will have been corroborated by her friend and Silvia Batista or do you think the PJ are so stupid as to not check such things? Not everything the police did is reflected in the files.
you would therefore agree SY may well have evidence of abduction
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 16, 2018, 07:14:01 PM
Do you have a cite to support any of this... It may well be mythical
I have spent hours trying to get to the source of this and originally the transcript of the interview must have been available but now I can only find quotes from the transcript and discussion about the quotes but no one ever says it never happened. "________________________________________ http://www.terra.com.pe/noticias/articu ... 934149.htm
La directora de servicios técnicos del resort Ocean Club, Silvia Batista, afirmó que la misma noche en que Madeleine desapareció, ella en persona le ofreció el servicio de cuidado de niños "porque el hotel es responsable por los hijos de los clientes, pero ellos lo rechazaron"
Translation:
The director of the Ocean Club's technical services, Silvia Batista, confirmed that on the same night Madeleine disappeared, she in person offered them the babysitting service, because the hotel is responsible for its guests, but they rejected her offer." http://themaddiecasefiles.com/silvia-batista-t10908.html
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 17, 2018, 06:31:09 AM
Why not ? Because your bias just screams it can’t be?
How can Mrs Fenn's statement ever be corroborated? It could have been possible to have evidence she told someone, but that is not corroboration of the crying but just that she was annoyed by the claimed crying.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 17, 2018, 06:34:44 AM
Each one of those cases had witnesses to the crime.
Where is the evidence that the window was open when Kate entered the room?
One thing is certain we know specifically which window Kate claims was open, but with Mrs Fenn she hears a child cry but we can't be certain it was the same child for the hour and quarter.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2018, 09:00:44 AM
How can Mrs Fenn's statement ever be corroborated? It could have been possible to have evidence she told someone, but that is not corroboration of the crying but just that she was annoyed by the claimed crying.
Mrs Fenn may well have heard crying but can we be sure for how long.... The answer is no.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2018, 09:10:35 AM
One thing is certain we know specifically which window Kate claims was open, but with Mrs Fenn she hears a child cry but we can't be certain it was the same child for the hour and quarter.
Nor which apartment (s) the sound (s) actually came from. In her statement, she stated that she oftens stays up late. Where was she at the time - patio-side (more logical for a living room) or in bed (possibly road-side or off to the side)? Some people also have a TV and a phone extension in the bedroom, but she doesn't appear to have been asked.
She also stated that she didn't hear anything on the evening of 3 May until approximately 22:30 when she heard a woman shouting (who must have been Kate). People were already swarming around the flat by that time, and I doubt that they were all whispering.
Many elderly people have hearing aids, which I'm told don't always reflect sound accurately. All the more reason to have conducted a reconstruction to verify where the sound could have been coming from and for contacting Edna to check on the time.
Who was above Mrs Fenn? Could the sliding door noise have come from above and not below?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: carlymichelle on June 17, 2018, 09:38:28 AM
i read somewhere once and im not sure where so dont ask for cites but someone/some people heard maddie/the mcann children crying and went in though the open/unlocked door/s and conforted the children but that was not the night maddie vanished? could that of been the crying incident when maddie asked why gerry and kate didnt come when they were crying??
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: carlymichelle on June 17, 2018, 09:43:30 AM
Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared SCOTLAND YARD detectives are trying to find a middle-aged couple said to have entered Madeleine McCann’s holiday apartment to comfort her because she was crying, we can reveal today. By James Murray PUBLISHED: 00:00, Sun, May 19, 2013
Madeleine s tears alerted a resident on eve of her disappearance Madeleine’s tears alerted a resident on eve of her disappearance
It is believed they entered the bedroom on May 2, 2007, the evening before Madeleine disappeared from the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz on Portugal’s Algarve.
The tip-off was given by two key witnesses who were reinterviewed as part of the Yard’s two-year, £4.5million investigation.
It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2.
She was so concerned she rang a friend in the village to ask what to do and considered ringing Portugal’s Policia Judiciaria.
At the time, Madeleine’s mother Kate and father Gerry were dining with friends at a tapas bar some 50 yards from the apartment.
A source said: “Police were astonished when this new information came to light. Officers spoke to other key witnesses to discover more about the middle-aged couple.
“Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.”
Pamela Fenn has since died, so police have been speaking to other people who were staying in the same apartments.
Our revelation comes as Scotland Yard detectives say there are potentially 20 suspects they want to speak to. Retiring Detective Chief Superintendent Hamish Campbell, head of the Yard’s Homicide and Serious Crime Command, urged Portuguese authorities to investigate the new leads.
He said: “There are a lot of people of interest. There are people who could be properly explored further, if only to be eliminated.”
Scotland Yard officers have been interviewing witnesses here for months, although the public prosecutor in Portugal has decided against reopening the investigation.
Despite claims of a “Mexican stand off” between Portuguese police and Yard officers, the Sunday Express understands there is in fact very good co-operation between both squads.
Pedro de Carmo, deputy national leader of the PJ, said yesterday: “We still co-operate with their team. There are good communications.”
Portuguese officers are very impressed with the diligence of the Met investigation and have been impressed with their interviews with witnesses in Britain.
We can confirm that a couple staying in the same block as apartment 5a were interviewed last February.
They were in their apartment on the night Madeleine vanished. Afterwards they wrote an account of what they saw but were never formally interviewed by Portuguese detectives.
They had been at a restaurant earlier in the evening and left at about 9pm.
madeleine mccann, maddie, scotland yard, new, suspects, mystery, couple, missingOcean Club view, showing distance between tapas bar and McCanns’ apartment
The McCanns were in bits, he was crying on the shoulder of a friend. She was screaming: ‘The f*****g b......s have taken her’
The woman’s statement
On their way home they walked directly past the entrance to the Ocean Club pool, where the “Tapas 7” (the name given to the friends eating with the McCanns on the night Madeleine disappeared) were enjoying the meal with Kate and Gerry.
They walked past apartment 5a but noticed nothing untoward. The woman said in her statement: “I stood on the balcony at about 9.15 with a whisky.
“I saw people eating at the tapas bar and children in the play area. We went to bed at 10pm-ish. We were woken up by our bell ringing at 11.30pm. It was a friend of the McCanns, saying that a little girl had been abducted. The friend asked if we had a computer so they could get the media involved in the search.
“Two police were on the corner of our block, one lady said that off-duty police had come and were searching. We did see single men on mobiles while we were out who could have been police.”
The couple took part in the search for Madeleine and then returned to their apartment.
The woman’s statement continues: “We walked back up towards our apartment, a group had gathered on the corner. The McCanns were in bits, he was crying on the shoulder of a friend. She was screaming: ‘The f*****g b......s have taken her’. Finally, at around 4am, we said: ‘Is it OK if we go to bed?’ We directed this comment towards a man in a white shirt and jeans, who seemed to be authoritative.”
At the couple’s home here, two Yard officers questioned them separately for three hours and got them to sign lengthy statements. They further interviewed them this year to double check their information.
The couple are key because at precisely 9.15pm on May 3, Jane Tanner, a friend of the McCanns, said she left the tapas bar and walked past Gerry, who was talking to holidaymaker Jez Wilkins outside apartment 5a.
Neither Gerry nor Kate said they saw Jane. She reported that she had seen a man carrying a child, believed to be Madeleine, walking across the top of the road.
At the time she had not realised the significance. Officers asked the couple if they saw Jane, Gerry or Jez but they insist they did not.
The Sunday Express has visited the couple’s holiday apartment, which looks over the tapas bar. From its balcony you can see directly into the garden of apartment 5a.
The woman said: “We have one of the best views of the whole block. We are sure of the timings. If we had seen anyone we would have remembered.
“We will continue to answer the Yard’s questions. We have given our fingerprints and DNA. We were happy to assist. They should be left to get on with their inquiries.”
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2018, 09:48:29 AM
Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared SCOTLAND YARD detectives are trying to find a middle-aged couple said to have entered Madeleine McCann’s holiday apartment to comfort her because she was crying, we can reveal today. By James Murray PUBLISHED: 00:00, Sun, May 19, 2013
Madeleine s tears alerted a resident on eve of her disappearance Madeleine’s tears alerted a resident on eve of her disappearance
It is believed they entered the bedroom on May 2, 2007, the evening before Madeleine disappeared from the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz on Portugal’s Algarve.
The tip-off was given by two key witnesses who were reinterviewed as part of the Yard’s two-year, £4.5million investigation.
It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2.
She was so concerned she rang a friend in the village to ask what to do and considered ringing Portugal’s Policia Judiciaria.
At the time, Madeleine’s mother Kate and father Gerry were dining with friends at a tapas bar some 50 yards from the apartment.
A source said: “Police were astonished when this new information came to light. Officers spoke to other key witnesses to discover more about the middle-aged couple.
“Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.”
Pamela Fenn has since died, so police have been speaking to other people who were staying in the same apartments.
Our revelation comes as Scotland Yard detectives say there are potentially 20 suspects they want to speak to. Retiring Detective Chief Superintendent Hamish Campbell, head of the Yard’s Homicide and Serious Crime Command, urged Portuguese authorities to investigate the new leads.
He said: “There are a lot of people of interest. There are people who could be properly explored further, if only to be eliminated.”
Scotland Yard officers have been interviewing witnesses here for months, although the public prosecutor in Portugal has decided against reopening the investigation.
Despite claims of a “Mexican stand off” between Portuguese police and Yard officers, the Sunday Express understands there is in fact very good co-operation between both squads.
Pedro de Carmo, deputy national leader of the PJ, said yesterday: “We still co-operate with their team. There are good communications.”
Portuguese officers are very impressed with the diligence of the Met investigation and have been impressed with their interviews with witnesses in Britain.
We can confirm that a couple staying in the same block as apartment 5a were interviewed last February.
They were in their apartment on the night Madeleine vanished. Afterwards they wrote an account of what they saw but were never formally interviewed by Portuguese detectives.
They had been at a restaurant earlier in the evening and left at about 9pm.
madeleine mccann, maddie, scotland yard, new, suspects, mystery, couple, missingOcean Club view, showing distance between tapas bar and McCanns’ apartment
The McCanns were in bits, he was crying on the shoulder of a friend. She was screaming: ‘The f*****g b......s have taken her’
The woman’s statement
On their way home they walked directly past the entrance to the Ocean Club pool, where the “Tapas 7” (the name given to the friends eating with the McCanns on the night Madeleine disappeared) were enjoying the meal with Kate and Gerry.
They walked past apartment 5a but noticed nothing untoward. The woman said in her statement: “I stood on the balcony at about 9.15 with a whisky.
“I saw people eating at the tapas bar and children in the play area. We went to bed at 10pm-ish. We were woken up by our bell ringing at 11.30pm. It was a friend of the McCanns, saying that a little girl had been abducted. The friend asked if we had a computer so they could get the media involved in the search.
“Two police were on the corner of our block, one lady said that off-duty police had come and were searching. We did see single men on mobiles while we were out who could have been police.”
The couple took part in the search for Madeleine and then returned to their apartment.
The woman’s statement continues: “We walked back up towards our apartment, a group had gathered on the corner. The McCanns were in bits, he was crying on the shoulder of a friend. She was screaming: ‘The f*****g b......s have taken her’. Finally, at around 4am, we said: ‘Is it OK if we go to bed?’ We directed this comment towards a man in a white shirt and jeans, who seemed to be authoritative.”
At the couple’s home here, two Yard officers questioned them separately for three hours and got them to sign lengthy statements. They further interviewed them this year to double check their information.
The couple are key because at precisely 9.15pm on May 3, Jane Tanner, a friend of the McCanns, said she left the tapas bar and walked past Gerry, who was talking to holidaymaker Jez Wilkins outside apartment 5a.
Neither Gerry nor Kate said they saw Jane. She reported that she had seen a man carrying a child, believed to be Madeleine, walking across the top of the road.
At the time she had not realised the significance. Officers asked the couple if they saw Jane, Gerry or Jez but they insist they did not.
The Sunday Express has visited the couple’s holiday apartment, which looks over the tapas bar. From its balcony you can see directly into the garden of apartment 5a.
The woman said: “We have one of the best views of the whole block. We are sure of the timings. If we had seen anyone we would have remembered.
“We will continue to answer the Yard’s questions. We have given our fingerprints and DNA. We were happy to assist. They should be left to get on with their inquiries.”
So no real evidence this ever happened... The couple interviewed in this article never claimed to have entered the alprtment the night before
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: John on June 17, 2018, 02:02:44 PM
So no real evidence this ever happened... The couple interviewed in this article never claimed to have entered the alprtment the night before
In my opinion, had a couple entered the McCann apartment in order to check on a crying child they would have reported the matter to the Ocean Club staff immediately. This never happened which clearly undermines the entire story.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2018, 02:29:20 PM
In my opinion, had a couple entered the McCann apartment in order to check on a crying child they would have reported the matter to the Ocean Club staff immediately. This never happened which clearly undermines the entire story.
I agree. It sounds like so many old forum myths that get rehashed until they are eventually assumed to be "fact".
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Brietta on June 17, 2018, 03:48:50 PM
So no real evidence this ever happened... The couple interviewed in this article never claimed to have entered the alprtment the night before
If the reference is to Mr and Mrs Moyes who arrived on Wednesday 2 May, in my opinion if it is not only mistaken it may very well be an outright fabrication.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 17, 2018, 04:35:31 PM
Mrs Fenn's friend would be able to corroborate the episode, she might well even have heard it over the telephone. As for Mrs Batista, she would be able to corroborate the fact that a complaint had been made to her the following day about the crying in 5a. Neither witness needed to be physically there in order to back up Mrs Fenn's claim.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2018, 04:43:34 PM
Mrs Fenn's friend would be able to corroborate the episode, she might well even have heard it over the telephone. As for Mrs Batista, she would be able to corroborate the fact that a complaint had been made to her the following day about the crying in 5a. Neither witness needed to be physically there in order to back up Mrs Fenn's claim.
No one can confirm how long the crying lasted
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 17, 2018, 04:47:38 PM
The police were certainly sure of Mrs Fenn's report.
The Truth of the Lie - Goncalo Amaral
1st May 2007
"For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return."
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2018, 06:03:35 PM
The police were certainly sure of Mrs Fenn's report.
The Truth of the Lie - Goncalo Amaral
1st May 2007
"For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return."
Mrs Fenn never said it was Madeleine - how could she?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 17, 2018, 06:07:47 PM
I don’t think it really matters what child was crying, what matters is that one was for an hour and a quarter.
And as I said a few days ago there’s no corroboration that the window was open before Kate entered the apartment. Should we doubt her claim too ?
It could have been different children even from different apartments. Kate did say that Amelie (?) cried sometime late that evening, but said that it didn't last that long (and she and Gerry were already in bed).
There could have been some other young kid crying elsewhere, then Amelie later, which may well have sounded louder to her.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 17, 2018, 06:40:11 PM
Assuming the crying did come from that apartment, it could have been any of the three. But there's still no corroboration that it did.
I wonder what word the PJ officer used when asking her to give an approximate stage of growth of a child?
Mrs. Fenn was sure it was from the McCanns apartment.
"She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering."
And I will make sure you ALL don't miss this:
"She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2018, 06:46:27 PM
Mrs. Fenn was sure it was from the McCanns apartment.
"She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering."
And I will make sure you ALL don't miss this:
"She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Did she speak to them at any point right after the disappearance? If so, did she mention the burglaries?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 17, 2018, 06:49:12 PM
It could have been different children even from different apartments. Kate did say that Amelie (?) cried sometime late that evening, but said that it didn't last that long (and she and Gerry were already in bed).
There could have been some other young kid crying elsewhere, then Amelie later, which may well have sounded louder to her.
Mrs Fenn was quite clear that the sobs came from the apartment below her. Further if the McCanns and their friends were checking every half an hour and the sobbing went on for over an hour and a half why did none of the friends mention hearing the sobs ? If it was in another apartment. Surely that could have even bolstered the abduction theory ?
As to the Amelie crying, I believe that was in the early hours of the morning.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2018, 06:52:58 PM
Mrs Fenn was quite clear that the sobs came from the apartment below her. Further if the McCanns and their friends were checking every half an hour and the sobbing went on for over an hour and a half why did none of the friends mention hearing the sobs ? If it was in another apartment. Surely that could have even bolstered the abduction theory ?
As to the Amelie crying, I believe that was in the early hours of the morning.
The thing is, there was no corroboration as to where the sound was coming from nor about the time. How many other kids could have been in that block that night? Some flats had private owners, so not necessarily on a package holiday list. Was that checked out?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 17, 2018, 07:06:31 PM
The thing is, there was no corroboration as to where the sound was coming from nor about the time. How many other kids could have been in that block that night? Some flats had private owners, so not necessarily on a package holiday list. Was that checked out?
The time must have been very near to what Mrs Fenn remembers as she called her friend Edna about it and what old woman calls anther old woman later that 11.45 ? Further you say Mrs Fenn may have been hard of hearing yet she did hear a child. Why didn’t the McCanns or their friends on their half hourly checks ?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2018, 07:16:00 PM
The time must have been very near to what Mrs Fenn remembers as she called her friend Edna about it and what old woman calls anther old woman later that 11.45 ? Further you say Mrs Fenn may have been hard of hearing yet she did hear a child. Why didn’t the McCanns or their friends on their half hourly checks ?
With hearing loss it's, all about frequencies
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2018, 07:17:15 PM
The police were certainly sure of Mrs Fenn's report.
The Truth of the Lie - Goncalo Amaral
1st May 2007
"For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return."
Amarals book contains several things that are not true... It is not a reliable source
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 17, 2018, 07:50:40 PM
The thing is, there was no corroboration as to where the sound was coming from nor about the time. How many other kids could have been in that block that night? Some flats had private owners, so not necessarily on a package holiday list. Was that checked out?
This backs up Mrs Fenn's statement. They left the tapas at around midnight and didn't check every 30 minutes as they claimed.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 17, 2018, 08:16:56 PM
Not good enough...cite for the comment you are paraphrasing... I never said anything like that... If you are going to make things up and claim as fact debate is pointless
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 17, 2018, 08:22:37 PM
Not good enough...cite for the comment you are paraphrasing... I never said anything like that... If you are going to make things up and claim as fact debate is pointless
You said recreation or cite. I retracted my comment. A gentleman always pays his debts. Are you a gentleman Davel ?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2018, 08:31:14 PM
I did but here it is again...I retract the claim that you ever said ‘uncorroborated statements are unreliable’.
In fact it’s okay don’t answer it. By making me retract that statement answers the question. You don’t believe uncobborated statements are unreliable.
Thanks Davel. *&(+(+
Phew that was easy.
it woud have been far easier if you had done it in the first place....are uncorroborated claims reliable...in some instances suspects are convicted on uncorroberated claims...it depends on the circumstances
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 17, 2018, 08:47:44 PM
it woud have been far easier if you had done it in the first place....are uncorroborated claims reliable...in some instances suspects are convicted on uncorroberated claims...it depends on the circumstances
No need to answer Davel. We now know that you probably think Kate was ‘mistaken’ about the window ( as Mrs Fenn was about the crying) as both are uncobborated claims.
No need to make it any clearer.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 17, 2018, 08:49:41 PM
Moving on ....
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 17, 2018, 08:51:55 PM
Did she speak to them at any point right after the disappearance? If so, did she mention the burglaries?
Yes she offered to help and her phone to Gerry at 22:30 to call the police. He refused and Mrs McCann told her to F Off! Charming.
REMEMBER Russell stayed in Tuesday night and he heard no crying from his apartment. Mrs Fenn heard the crying below i.e. in apartment 5A.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 17, 2018, 08:55:44 PM
Russell said he wasn't there on quiz night TUE - Read on:
Tuesday, the day that I wasn’t there, erm, that, that I think it was that, you know, there was an aerobics instructor who, this is second-hand information, who was drumming up some support for, you know, some group called Pool Aerobics or something, from the people who were there. Erm, and the only reason I mentioned that was, if you had that information in other people’s statements about what night the quiz took place on, that was the night I wasn’t there”.
Yes she offered to help and her phone to Gerry at 22:30 to call the police. He refused and Mrs McCann told her to F Off! Charming.
REMEMBER Russell stayed in Tuesday night and he heard no crying from his apartment. Mrs Fenn heard the crying below i.e. in apartment 5A.
For the 1 week period there was a lot of illness amongst the kids IMO. Did the whole resort have an outbreak of some rapidly spreading condition. Did anyone report it?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 17, 2018, 09:49:03 PM
No need to answer Davel. We now know that you probably think Kate was ‘mistaken’ about the window ( as Mrs Fenn was about the crying) as both are uncobborated claims.
No need to make it any clearer.
Arrers missus ?>)()<
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: sadie on June 18, 2018, 01:59:17 AM
We have discussed Mrs Fenns experience in detail including how the crying stopped immediately the patio door to 5a was opened. I think it is disingenuous for anyone to attempt to undermine Mrs Fenn's evidence.
John, we only have the thoughts and words of an old woman that the crying came from 5A.
It could have been at a number of apartments that the crying happened. With hearing problems such as old people usually get (differential hearing in the two ears), it is impossible to tell from which direction sound is coming. I myself am in that position.
The fact that only one child was crying makes it more likely that the sound came from another apartment with only one child. All three would have been at it, had it been at the Mccanns apartment.
Is it possible that the hearing device belonging to THe Oldfields failed, or that they forgot to switch it on?
Did The Moyes have any young children?. How about the people in the next door flat to The Moyes.
Any of those could have slipped out on to their balcony
We just dont know and IMO it is unfair to attribute, as fact, that it was one of The Mccann children. Had it been, all three of them would have been howling IMO
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Carana on June 18, 2018, 05:25:21 AM
This backs up Mrs Fenn's statement. They left the tapas at around midnight and didn't check every 30 minutes as they claimed.
Which waiter was he? Was he one of the ones who served them, or did he work in the bar part? Not very clear, IMO. Who is he talking about - the entire group or just some of them? The Payne's didn't go at all anyway.
Their table was always booked for 8:30, not 8, and apparently the Paynes were usually a bit late, although possibly not always as late as when they turned up at 9 one night.
So which is it? They hardly ever went, therefore there was plenty of opportunity for an abduction, or someone or other was on the go so frequently that there was no way of missing one?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 18, 2018, 09:49:37 AM
struggling!
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Carana on June 18, 2018, 10:34:28 AM
Russell said he wasn't there on quiz night TUE - Read on:
Tuesday, the day that I wasn’t there, erm, that, that I think it was that, you know, there was an aerobics instructor who, this is second-hand information, who was drumming up some support for, you know, some group called Pool Aerobics or something, from the people who were there. Erm, and the only reason I mentioned that was, if you had that information in other people’s statements about what night the quiz took place on, that was the night I wasn’t there”.
Yes, because the little one was sick, so he stayed and Jane ferried his food to him.
Could she have been the one crying that evening? Even if possibly followed by Amelie at around or just after midnight?
So both children howled Daddy, Daddy, even though their dads were there at the time. Further Amelie’s crying was too late and it wasn’t loud enough to wake her parents never mind someone in another apartment.
Still that little tale did its job but conveniently muddying the waters. Well done Gerry.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Carana on June 18, 2018, 01:11:38 PM
So both children howled Daddy, Daddy, even though their dads were there at the time. Further Amelie’s crying was too late and it wasn’t loud enough to wake her parents never mind someone in another apartment.
Still that little tale did its job but conveniently muddying the waters. Well done Gerry.
Mrs Fenn said that the sound of crying "got louder and more expressive", apparently. It doesn't say at what point she thought she heard a child crying "Daddy". Perfectly reasonable question to ask, IMO, as it could have been Russell's child objecting to an evening washdown.
Were either of the McCanns asked what, if anything, Madeleine actually said later that Tuesday night when she came to their room?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: kizzy on June 18, 2018, 01:18:06 PM
John, we only have the thoughts and words of an old woman that the crying came from 5A.
It could have been at a number of apartments that the crying happened. With hearing problems such as old people usually get (differential hearing in the two ears), it is impossible to tell from which direction sound is coming. I myself am in that position.
The fact that only one child was crying makes it more likely that the sound came from another apartment with only one child. All three would have been at it, had it been at the Mccanns apartment.
Is it possible that the hearing device belonging to THe Oldfields failed, or that they forgot to switch it on?
Did The Moyes have any young children?. How about the people in the next door flat to The Moyes.
Any of those could have slipped out on to their balcony
We just dont know and IMO it is unfair to attribute, as fact, that it was one of The Mccann children. Had it been, all three of them would have been howling IMO
Just one excuse really after the other imo
maddie told the mccanns - why didn't you come when i was crying
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 18, 2018, 01:20:53 PM
Mrs Fenn said that the sound of crying "got louder and more expressive", apparently. It doesn't say at what point she thought she heard a child crying "Daddy". Perfectly reasonable question to ask, IMO, as it could have been Russell's child objecting to an evening washdown.
Were either of the McCanns asked what, if anything, Madeleine actually said later that Tuesday night when she came to their room?
Are you honestly suggesting that two children cried that night, one in 5a and one 2 apartments away from Mrs Fenn, and did so in such a seamless way that Mrs Fenn couldn’t tell the difference between the two ?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: kizzy on June 18, 2018, 01:34:42 PM
Mrs Fenn said that the sound of crying "got louder and more expressive", apparently. It doesn't say at what point she thought she heard a child crying "Daddy". Perfectly reasonable question to ask, IMO, as it could have been Russell's child objecting to an evening washdown.
Were either of the McCanns asked what, if anything, Madeleine actually said later that Tuesday night when she came to their room?
Don't be ridiculous. Russell would leave his child crying for 75 minutes. Jane did not stop it either? Mrs. Fenn was too far away from their apartment.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Carana on June 18, 2018, 02:51:10 PM
maddie told the mccanns - why didn't you come when i was crying
Not the morning after when Mrs Fenn thought she'd heard a child crying below her, though. And no one appears to have actually heard a child crying on the Wednesday night.
Could have simply been a dream.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: kizzy on June 18, 2018, 02:57:21 PM
Not the morning after when Mrs Fenn thought she'd heard a child crying below her, though. And no one appears to have actually heard a child crying on the Wednesday night.
Could have simply been a dream.
Did ever kmccann deny that maddie was crying .
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 18, 2018, 03:21:49 PM
Not the morning after when Mrs Fenn thought she'd heard a child crying below her, though. And no one appears to have actually heard a child crying on the Wednesday night.
Could have simply been a dream.
Who was dreaming ?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: slartibartfast on June 18, 2018, 04:56:48 PM
Not the morning after when Mrs Fenn thought she'd heard a child crying below her, though. And no one appears to have actually heard a child crying on the Wednesday night.
Could have simply been a dream.
Always possible Madeleine remembered the day after. I.e. happened on Tuesday night and remembered on Thursday morning. Or Kate misremembered and Madeleine spoke on Wednesday morning.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 18, 2018, 05:54:15 PM
Always possible Madeleine remembered the day after. I.e. happened on Tuesday night and remembered on Thursday morning. Or Kate misremembered and Madeleine spoke on Wednesday morning.
Possible.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Lace on June 19, 2018, 10:51:59 AM
Don't be ridiculous. Russell would leave his child crying for 75 minutes. Jane did not stop it either? Mrs. Fenn was too far away from their apartment.
Hello, I notice the 'don't be ridiculous' has not been deleted from this post. When I say something similar it is deleted.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 19, 2018, 10:57:53 AM
Well all I said in a post was 'get real' and that bit was deleted.
Well that is being personal or even personal and off topic.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Brietta on June 19, 2018, 11:52:50 AM
What difference would Mrs Fenn's August statement have made if it had been said, as I think it should have been, in May shortly after Madeleine's disappearance.
Mrs Fenn's balcony had a commanding view over much of the area featured in Madeleine's disappearance and what is of significance as far as I am concerned is that it appears that she was not approached immediately in the aftermath to make a statement.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 19, 2018, 12:01:02 PM
What difference would Mrs Fenn's August statement have made if it had been said, as I think it should have been, in May shortly after Madeleine's disappearance.
Mrs Fenn's balcony had a commanding view over much of the area featured in Madeleine's disappearance and what is of significance as far as I am concerned is that it appears that she was not approached immediately in the aftermath to make a statement.
Mrs Fenn obviously gave then information she had in August. What do you think she could have imparted in May that would take the investigation the slightest bit forward?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 19, 2018, 12:42:59 PM
Mrs Fenn obviously gave then information she had in August. What do you think she could have imparted in May that would take the investigation the slightest bit forward?
Whether she had informed anyone at the time. Much easier to cross check recent information rather than months later.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 19, 2018, 12:49:13 PM
What difference would Mrs Fenn's August statement have made if it had been said, as I think it should have been, in May shortly after Madeleine's disappearance.
Mrs Fenn's balcony had a commanding view over much of the area featured in Madeleine's disappearance and what is of significance as far as I am concerned is that it appears that she was not approached immediately in the aftermath to make a statement.
Hang on - the police questioned her the day after Madeleine's disappearance didn't they??
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 19, 2018, 12:52:21 PM
Hang on - the police questioned her the day after Madeleine's disappearance didn't they??
There is no record of it. Nor is there any record of Mr and Mrs Moyes who were in the apartment above Mrs fenn being interviewed either. Or the people who left food to rot in the fridge in apartment 5J. Does anyone even know who they were, where they went or where they are now?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 19, 2018, 02:27:32 PM
There is no record of it. Nor is there any record of Mr and Mrs Moyes who were in the apartment above Mrs fenn being interviewed either. Or the people who left apartment 5J on May 4th. Does anyone even know who they were, where they went or where they are now?
I’m sure SY do.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 19, 2018, 04:08:21 PM
There is no record of it. Nor is there any record of Mr and Mrs Moyes who were in the apartment above Mrs fenn being interviewed either. Or the people who left apartment 5J on May 4th. Does anyone even know who they were, where they went or where they are now?
How astounding!
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: jassi on June 19, 2018, 04:11:14 PM
There is no record of it. Nor is there any record of Mr and Mrs Moyes who were in the apartment above Mrs fenn being interviewed either. Or the people who left apartment 5J on May 4th. Does anyone even know who they were, where they went or where they are now?
You mean there is no record available to the general public. There may very well be a record.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 19, 2018, 04:37:54 PM
You mean there is no record available to the general public. There may very well be a record.
It is also a possibility there is a total misunderstanding of how "available to the general public" is defined in this context. I was of the opinion that in the context of filed cases it is within the powers of the PP to decide what constitutes the file. "Available to the public" can mean one having to go along to the place the documents are deposited and asking to have a look. Where one may do so , even take notes but copying and photographing are verboten. It seems to be taken on faith that what shows up on a google search is the genuine exhaustive article.... *%87
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Carana on June 19, 2018, 07:12:33 PM
It is also a possibility there is a total misunderstanding of how "available to the general public" is defined in this context. I was of the opinion that in the context of filed cases it is within the powers of the PP to decide what constitutes the file. "Available to the public" can mean one having to go along to the place the documents are deposited and asking to have a look. Where one may do so , even take notes but copying and photographing are verboten. It seems to be taken on faith that what shows up on a google search is the genuine exhaustive article.... *%87
The DVD of the available files was handed to journalists (minus the rogs), which then got copied via some of their friends to other friends and then to all and sundry and ended up uploaded on several sites.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: jassi on June 19, 2018, 07:21:05 PM
The DVD of the available files was handed to journalists (minus the rogs), which then got copied via some of their friends to other friends and then to all and sundry and ended up uploaded on several sites.
And aren't we all eternally grateful, otherwise we'd have very little to talk and argue about.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 19, 2018, 07:34:05 PM
And aren't we all eternally grateful, otherwise we'd have very little to talk and argue about.
It generates a wry smile at the thought of two groups of people, who accuse each other of being as thick as brick, debating[insults and all] the accuracy of what may well be a bootleg document anyway.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: sadie on June 19, 2018, 11:06:12 PM
There is no record of it. Nor is there any record of Mr and Mrs Moyes who were in the apartment above Mrs fenn being interviewed either. Or the people who left apartment 5J on May 4th. Does anyone even know who they were, where they went or where they are now?
Many holidaymakers weren't interviewed. Mostly because they had nothing to say, I imagine. Is it a fact that people left 5J on 4th May? I think a cite could be required.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Erngath on June 20, 2018, 10:02:57 AM
Many holidaymakers weren't interviewed. Mostly because they had nothing to say, I imagine. Is it a fact that people left 5J on 4th May? I think a cite could be required.
If they weren't interviewed how is it possible to state they had nothing to say?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: sadie on June 20, 2018, 10:26:14 AM
No-one knows exactly who was crying on the previous night .... unless you wish to condemn a family based on the hearing and thoughts of an old, almost certainly partially deaf woman
If you add up the figures for woman, you will find that 100% of women start going deaf before, or by the age of 70
How old was Mrs Fenn? About 80 is my guess. With almost 100% certainty, she suffered significant hearing loss. Her loud voice indicates that also. Deaf people speak loudly. Mrs Fenn was loud. Her hearing was not good and by the way she almost shouted, I would guess it was quite bad. IMO, she would have no idea from whence the sound originated
So are you still prepared (and loving it?) to intimate that Madeleine cried two nights running when you have no sound evidence, other than the one night that Kate so honestly told the PJ about?
If so I hope that you are never called for Jury service
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: faithlilly on June 20, 2018, 11:18:49 AM
No-one knows exactly who was crying on the previous night .... unless you wish to condemn a family based on the hearing and thoughts of an old, almost certainly partially deaf woman
If you add up the figures for woman, you will find that 100% of women start going deaf before, or by the age of 70
How old was Mrs Fenn? About 80 is my guess. With almost 100% certainty, she suffered significant hearing loss. Her loud voice indicates that also. Deaf people speak loudly. Mrs Fenn was loud. Her hearing was not good and by the way she almost shouted, I would guess it was quite bad. IMO, she would have no idea from whence the sound originated
So are you still prepared (and loving it?) to intimate that Madeleine cried two nights running when you have no sound evidence, other than the one night that Kate so honestly told the PJ about?
If so I hope that you are never called for Jury service
A simple question. If Mrs Fenn was so hard of hearing that she couldn’t hear a child crying in the flat nearest to her how is she going to hear a child in a flat further away. That she may have been deaf but she heard crying suggests the crying was very close.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: G-Unit on June 20, 2018, 09:58:43 PM
If they weren't interviewed how is it possible to state they had nothing to say?
I said 'I imagine'. The PJ were present in the village and anyone with information was free to approach them. Jez Wilkins did that.
How is it possible to state that the people in 5J left on 4th May without providing a cite? That's what I'd like to know.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: blonk on June 20, 2018, 10:21:54 PM
The thread title is: "What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?"
A good question, but perhaps an equally good question would be: "Why on earth didn't she call the police on the night of the crying?"
And it also seems she contacted no-one else at all, except her friend Edna Glyn. It is likely that Mrs Fenn, as most old people do, would have had a list of emergency numbers to hand by her 'phone - police, fire, ambulance, Ocean Club reception etc.
Yet she only spoke to Edna Glyn, about which we glean only this:
Quote from Mrs Fenn statement: "That night she contacted a friend called EDNA GLYN, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23.00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the child's crying".
And that's all! So it seems that Mrs Fenn was chatting to her friend, a child frantically crying 'Daddy! Daddy!' ever more loudly in the background...then Mrs Fenn reported it to Mrs Glyn...Mrs Glyn said: "I'm not surprised!, and...er...that's it? Did neither of them think that someone should be contacted?
But I wanted to raise one more issue which as yet has only been mentioned once on the thread, and that is this peculiar statement from Mrs Fenn:
QUOTE: "...at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger".
Now, firstly, that statement is ambiguous. Something may have been lost in translation. But reading it as I think it's meant to be taken, it seems that she's telling the PJ: "I heard this child crying. It didn't sound like a child of 2 (which I take to mean younger than 3). The child sounded if it was over 2 (i.e. at least three years old)".
I admit I am male, and maybe females are better at this sort of thing. But I have heard a great number of crying children in my time. I suggest it would be very hard to distinguish between the crying of a 2-year-old and a 3-year-old child.
Can anyone explain why Mrs Fenn should be so very specific about the crying being from a 3-year-old and not a 2-year-old?
I can't account for it.
If she had said: "It was a young child, not a baby", that would be understandable.
Instead of which we have a convoluted statement that the child was: "not a baby of two years of age or younger".
So that is two question marks about Mrs Fenn's evidence: 1 Why didn't she get help from the police or the Ocean Club? 2. Why is she so insistent that the crying was not "from a baby of two years of age or younger"?
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 20, 2018, 10:42:41 PM
"Odd thing is, only Pamela Fenn heard this crying. Not another sole in the block heard anything. Seems like the Moyes didn't miss much, they heard nothing.
I find a few other things odd about Mrs Fenn's translated statement.
1. Mrs Fenn was in the living room, on the back of her apartment, watching News at Ten. Madeleine's bedroom was on the front of 5a, but she manages to hear the words 'Daddy, daddy'.
2. She rang her friend Edna Glynn to tell her. And according to Murat, she rang him.
3. She listened to crying for an hour and 15 minutes, and did nothing. Instead of ringing every Tom, Dick and Harry, why not ring the Tapas bar, to ask if the parents were there.
4. She never mentioned it to her niece or her son.
5. She never told the McCann's. Even when she spoke to Gerry.
Come on, a woman of her age not doing something about this, is just unbelieveable.
If she made a statement on the 4th May, where is it?"
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 21, 2018, 08:12:14 AM
We can't all be correct.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: G-Unit on June 21, 2018, 08:23:14 AM
"Odd thing is, only Pamela Fenn heard this crying. Not another sole in the block heard anything. Seems like the Moyes didn't miss much, they heard nothing.
I find a few other things odd about Mrs Fenn's translated statement.
1. Mrs Fenn was in the living room, on the back of her apartment, watching News at Ten. Madeleine's bedroom was on the front of 5a, but she manages to hear the words 'Daddy, daddy'.
2. She rang her friend Edna Glynn to tell her. And according to Murat, she rang him.
3. She listened to crying for an hour and 15 minutes, and did nothing. Instead of ringing every Tom, Dick and Harry, why not ring the Tapas bar, to ask if the parents were there.
4. She never mentioned it to her niece or her son.
5. She never told the McCann's. Even when she spoke to Gerry.
Come on, a woman of her age not doing something about this, is just unbelieveable.
If she made a statement on the 4th May, where is it?"
Is there any reason why Madeleine should be crying in her bedroom? She could have been in any room, including the living room directly below Mrs Fenn's living room. Mrs Fenn had no reason to believe the children were alone, as far as I know.
Title: Re: What if Mrs Fenn had called the police the night of the crying?
Post by: Brietta on June 21, 2018, 12:55:13 PM
"Odd thing is, only Pamela Fenn heard this crying. Not another sole in the block heard anything. Seems like the Moyes didn't miss much, they heard nothing.
I find a few other things odd about Mrs Fenn's translated statement.
1. Mrs Fenn was in the living room, on the back of her apartment, watching News at Ten. Madeleine's bedroom was on the front of 5a, but she manages to hear the words 'Daddy, daddy'.
2. She rang her friend Edna Glynn to tell her. And according to Murat, she rang him.
3. She listened to crying for an hour and 15 minutes, and did nothing. Instead of ringing every Tom, Dick and Harry, why not ring the Tapas bar, to ask if the parents were there.
4. She never mentioned it to her niece or her son.
5. She never told the McCann's. Even when she spoke to Gerry.
Come on, a woman of her age not doing something about this, is just unbelieveable.
If she made a statement on the 4th May, where is it?"
What is and what is not known about Edna Glyn? Did she ever pass comment on Mrs Fenn's phone call? What did the phone records say?