Author Topic: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd  (Read 30907 times)

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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2021, 08:58:40 PM »
Possibly but unlikely in my opinion. I haven't seen it referenced anywhere but if Chauvin takes the stand he might be asked if he knew Floyd previously in some context.

This has been claimed, that they worked together in a nightclub & had previously clashed.

But I haven't seen this matter raised by either the prosecution or defence.

Snopes Fact Check say's this is a mixture of truth.

True.
Maya Santamaria, who owned the building that housed El Nuevo Rodeo club, said that both George Floyd and Derek Chauvin were employed by the club during a period that overlapped in 2019.

Undetermined
It is unknown whether Chauvin and Floyd actually knew each other before the officer pinned Floyd to the ground, putting his knee on Floyd's neck before the latter died.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/chauvin-floyd-club-employment/

Santamaria told us via phone that while the employment history of Floyd and Chauvin at the club did overlap some, it’s unlikely that the two men knew each other.

“They were in different departments, and in different parts of the building,” Santamaria told us. “I don’t think they knew each other. I think that’s a stretch.”
I stand with Putin. Glory to Mother Putin.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2021, 09:12:06 PM »
And I think Chauvin taking the stand is unlikely unless the defence realise they are absolutely screwed & throw Chauvin in for one last roll of the dice.

The prosecution would tear him to shreds over the use of unnecessary force & failure to render aid.

I don't know how he could talk his way out.

(Editor note: Sensible discussion please)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 09:27:29 PM by John »
I stand with Putin. Glory to Mother Putin.

Offline John

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2021, 09:24:46 PM »
Seems that Chauvin worked as a security guard outside the El Nuevo Rodeo premises in south Minneapolis for some 17 years while George Floyd had been a more recent addition as a bouncer.  They certainly knew each other according to the owner of the club but Chauvin was seen as heavy handed and aggressive towards customers while Floyd tended to defuse conflicts.

No doubt this will all come out in due course.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2021, 09:57:51 PM »
Yes, apologies for the silliness. After several reasoned, rational & sensible comments on the subject I couldn't help but lapse into standard form.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make in the silliness was that it would be impossible for him to defend his position.

If his excuse for not adhering to the correct procedure for restraint was the pressure of the moment, that won't stand up.

The defence has already tried to paint the witnesses as an angry mob, the implication being this may have affected Chauvin's thought or judgement. 

The problem with that is the witnesses confronting him included 1 young man, an elderly man, several women & 2 young children. Hardly a threatening situation for a cop with 19 years experience.

Also Officer Keung, a rookie, who twice alerted Chauvin to Floyds lack of pulse was also heard asking him 'should we lay him on his side' which obviously would have been safer, but Chauvin declined.

So with bystanders imploring him to render aid, the firefighter/medic offering to render aid, his colleague alerting him to Floyd's condition & no doubt the feeling of Floyd going limp beneath his knee, he persisted in his restraint.

It's no wonder they're trying to point to the drug overdose theory, it seems the only hope they've got of giving the jury any cause for doubt, but, imo, it certainly doesn't appear to be a reasonable one.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 10:26:23 PM by Wonderfulspam »
I stand with Putin. Glory to Mother Putin.

Offline John

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2021, 10:10:02 PM »
Several witnesses made reference to Chauvin's nonchalant demeanour as he knelt on Floyd for over 9 minutes.

Fire fighter witness Genevieve Hansen even gave a statement suggesting Derek Chauvin was so laid back than he had his hand in his pocket. As can be seen from the image below, this was an optical illusion.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 12:19:32 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2021, 01:14:56 AM »
A Summary of the trial - Week 1 Day 4 contd...

The last witness of the day was David Pleoger. Now retired, on May 25, 2020 Pleoger was the MPD Sergeant responsible for the precinct zone in which the Floyd event took place, and the supervisory sergeant over Chauvin, Thau, King, and Lane.

Pleoger was questioned on direct by Prosecutor Schleicher, and on cross examination by Nelson.

When asked by the prosecution if it wasn’t true that sometimes police officers used more force than the circumstances called for, Pleoger answered in the affirmative.

Conversely, when asked by the defence if it wasn’t true that sometimes police officers were compelled by circumstances to use more force than might otherwise be the case, Ploeger again answered in the affirmative.

Both of these answers are correct—the appropriate amount of force is determined by the totality of the circumstances, and it’s both true that greater force than necessary under the circumstances is excessive and unlawful and that the circumstances may require a greater degree of force than might otherwise be the case.

Specifically, although Pleoger as a sergeant would routinely review, in a comprehensive manner, routine use of force events involving his officers, once an event was escalated to a so-called critical incident—such as the death of a suspect, as in the case of Floyd—the use-of-force investigation was escalated out of his hands to higher authority.

As a result, Pleoger never did anything like a thorough use-of-force investigation in this case. At most, he’d reviewed the body camera footage, and even that only at the late request of the prosecutors.

As a result, the defence argued in a period during which the jury had been removed from the courtroom, precisely to allow this argument out of the jury’s hearing, Pleoger might be able to provide the jury with a use-of-force opinion, but only an uninformed opinion, not an informed opinion, much less an authoritative decision.

After this argument outside the hearing of the jury, the jury was called back in and Cahill allowed Schleicher to ask Pleoger a very narrow use-of-force question.  Schleicher got the answer he wanted, but the context was so tightly constrained that it caused little harm to the defence.

Because of the jockeying between the state’s efforts to drag a purportedly authoritative use-of-force call out of Pleoger, and the defence efforts to foil this, poor Ploeger was subject to direct by Schleicher, then cross by Nelson, then re-direct by Schleicher, then re-cross by Nelson, and finally a re-re-direct by Schleicher.

(Summary acknowledgment Attorney Andrew Branca)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 05:02:11 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2021, 02:33:56 AM »
A Summary of the trial - Week 1 Day 5

The first witness was MPD Sergeant John Edwards whose only real involvement in this event was to take over at shift change from Sergeant Pleoger.  Edwards engaged in some routine activities on site, such as having officers run crime scene tape to secure the relevant areas of the scene, begin to search out witnesses who might be willing to give statements, and so forth.

Within an hour or two afterwards, however, when it became known that Floyd had died and this was now officially a critical incident, Sergeant Edwards and every other member of MPD involved knew that their substantive role in the case was effectively over. At that point they did the minimum required to be prepared to smoothly hand over the case to BCA.

This was certainly true of Sergeant Edwards, as we learned through his testimony as the state stepped him through his activities that evening of 25 May 2020.  All of these activities were largely administrative in nature, and none of Edwards’ testimony added much substantive value to understanding this case.

Really all the evidence about the event of which Edwards was aware consisted of body camera footage shown to him by the prosecution. This wasn’t a big deal with respect to Edwards but became a bigger deal when the same approach was taken with the next witness, Lt. Zimmerman.

Indeed, so limited was the utility of Edwards’ testimony that the defence did not even bother subjecting him to cross-examination, so all the testimony we have from Edwards was based on direct questioning by the state Prosecutor Schleicher.

The second and final state’s witness of the day was MPD Homicide Lieutenant Richard Zimmerman.  It was noted that he is apparently the most senior of MPD’s homicide detectives.

Direct questioning of Zimmerman was conducted by Prosecutor Frank, taking over from Schleicher, and that raises an interesting and noteworthy point.

Today one of the television commentators chattering away while the court was recessed mentioned that the state had some 15 or so attorneys admitted on the case by Judge Cahill.

There is only one defence attorney, Eric Nelson.

Nelson has himself, a newly barred assistant, and that’s it.  The situation is rather like a wrestling match in which one competitor fights alone against 10-15 opponents who can tag each other in and out as they like.

On a more practical level, it means, for example, that each prosecutor need have command of every detail of only the subset of witnesses that they intend to personally question—whereas, in contrast, Eric Nelson must have command of every detail of every single witness.

It also means that if any single prosecutor feels, perhaps, that they might be a bit off that day, they can “tag in” a colleague.  Eric Nelson can “tag in” nobody.

Perhaps the best way to describe Lt. Zimmerman is “well-seasoned.”  He joined the MPD back in 1985, after a few years as a Sheriff’s deputy, back in the days when cops carried a gun, handcuffs, and that was about it. Often, back then, from my own recollection, not even radios—indeed, often not even every squad car had a radio.

Frank had a very specific role in mind for Zimmerman, and it had little to do with the substantive factors of this case.  And there’s good reason it had little to do with the substantive factors of this case—because Zimmerman knows virtually none of the relevant evidence of the case.

Much as with Sergeant Edwards, Zimmerman was almost immediately aware that this was going to be a critical incident and promptly handed over to BCA—indeed, as it was in fact handed over within two or three hours of Zimmerman’s involvement.

Zimmerman’s role, then, was largely as a transient caretaker of the case, to ensure the uniformed officers were doing the things they were supposed to be doing to secure evidence, run crime scene tape, canvass for witnesses, and so forth.

But everybody involved, including Zimmerman, was aware that by the time they went to bed that evening this would be a case entirely in the hands of BCA, with effectively zero involvement by MPD.

So, if Frank would not be able to make use of Zimmerman to testify substantively about the case, for what purpose could he use Zimmerman?  As a purported expert on MPD use-of-force policies able to provide an authoritative determination that Chauvin’s use of force upon Floyd was unjustifiable.

Before getting to that, of course, Frank stepped Zimmerman through his administrative role on the case, as a transient caretaker, much as Prosecutor Schleicher had done earlier with Sergeant Edwards.

Then we got to the real point of having Zimmerman testify.

Frank asked Zimmerman if he’d been trained by MPD on use of force, if he was familiar with MPD use of force policies, and (importantly) if he’d viewed the body cam footage of the Floyd event.

The body cam footage is important here, because unless Zimmerman had viewed at least that limited body of evidence he’d have zero basis on which to have a use-of-force opinion.

Accordingly, the prosecution had fed him the limited body of evidence consisting of body camera footage specifically so they could ask for his use of force opinion in court, and have that opinion based on more than zero knowledge of the evidence.

And Zimmerman was happy to comply, providing Frank with every answer the prosecutor could hope for.

The placement of a knee on the neck, Zimmerman said, qualified as deadly force, because “it could kill someone.”

Unmentioned here by either prosecution or defence is that the MPD training policies and manual in effect on 25 May 2020 explicitly allowed for—and, indeed, provided photograph illustrations of—knee on the neck use of force as appropriate non-deadly restraint of a suspect.  (The city of Minneapolis did pass a law in July 2020, banning just about anything resembling a “choke hold,” but that was obviously new policy adopted after the Floyd event.)

Asked by Frank if a suspect who was handcuffed could still represent a threat to the officer, Zimmerman answered definitely in the negative.

This is, of course, utter nonsense. The reason Thau was looking for a hobble device in the squad car to further restrain Floyd (ultimately the hobble was never used) was because Floyd had kicked at the officers trying to restrain him on the ground—clearly a handcuffed suspect can still be a physical danger to officers.

Indeed, there have been several instances in which handcuffed suspects have shot and killed officers.

Further, the duty of the officer in restraining a suspect is not merely to protect the officer from the suspect, but also to protect the public from the suspect, and even to protect the suspect from the suspect—this last is a genuine factor when dealing with a violently non-compliant, apparently intoxicated, very large and powerful suspect while on one of the busiest intersections in the city, as here.

Frank also asked Zimmerman about the dangers of the prone position for a handcuffed suspect, driving the prosecution narrative that positional asphyxia had killed Floyd, and Zimmerman was happy to talk about how he’d been trained for decades about the dangers of positional asphyxia and the importance of bringing a handcuffed suspect to a seated or recovery position as soon as possible.

Frank asked Zimmerman about the duty of police to provide care to a suspect in need, even if the officers had already called for an ambulance, and Zimmerman affirmed that the officers had such a duty while waiting for the ambulance to arrive.

About this point the defence objected to the line of questioning—likely on the grounds that Zimmerman was speaking in an entirely hypothetical sense without any grounding or foundation in the actual facts of this actual event.  This led to a rather lengthy sidebar during which the court recessed for its morning break.

When the court returned, it was clear that Frank had been instructed by Cahill to tie the questioning to the case. It was at this point that Frank asked Zimmerman about his reviewing of the body camera evidence.

With this foundation established, Frank then asked Zimmerman the very narrow question of whether, based solely on that body camera footage and based on Zimmerman’s training and experience, did Zimmerman believe Chauvin’s use of force was unnecessary?

Zimmerman’s response: Totally unnecessary.

And that pretty much concluded direct.

The defect in this line of questioning, from a substantive perspective, is obvious—the officers on scene in general, and Chauvin in particular, were not making their use-of-force decisions based on body camera footage, they were making their use-of-force decisions based on the totality of the circumstances.

Indeed, the body cameras do not even capture what the officers merely saw, because a turn of the head without a turn of the body means the officer is viewing events not captured by the camera.

The body camera obviously doesn’t at all capture non-visible evidence, such as muscular resistance by a suspect, the perception of traffic moving up and down the street only feet away, the knowledge that EMS is en route on a code 3 with lights and sirens, and more.

It’s as if there were 20 possible sources of information driving the use-of-force decision making of the officers on scene, and Zimmerman was asked to give his use-of-force assessment based only one of those sources.

If that’s all the substantive information Zimmerman has, then he’s simply ill-informed, and if he’s ill-informed then his opinion is equally ill-informed.

To his credit, Nelson did an excellent job clarifying this reality, getting Zimmerman to agree to a long list of factors, other than what might be captured on a body camera, as important in making use-of-force decisions.

Nelson also noted that Zimmerman himself could hardly be characterized as anything like a use-of-force expert, with Zimmerman agreeing that as a long-time homicide detective he would only very rarely be involved in the use of violent force on a suspect, and that indeed his primary exposure to use of force events consisted almost entirely of his mandatory annual training—at which he, Zimmerman, was a student, not a trainer.

There are, of course, limits to what defence counsel can do on cross-examination—specifically, defence counsel is not permitted to argue with a witness (despite what you see on television), nor can defence counsel himself testify (again, despite what you see on television).

These limitations were illustrated when Nelson asked Zimmerman if there was any provision under MPD policy in which a knee on neck would be allowed, other than as a purely opportunistic defence technique, and Zimmerman replied that there was not.

Well, the actual MPD policy and training manual indicates that knee on neck is explicitly permitted (or was, at the time of the Floyd event), and even demonstrated photographically.

Now, Nelson could have pulled out that policy, and shoved it in Zimmerman’s face to impeach him on the stand, but today was not the best day to bring that particular club to bear, and especially not to an older gentleman like Zimmerman.

Nelson undoubtedely thought to save that club for a better time when he could bring it to bear from a position of strength, rather than on cross-examination—and at time much more proximate to jury deliberations.

It’s worth keeping in mind that everything happening in court today will have been three weeks in the past by the time the jury goes into deliberations, and in the intervening three weeks the jury will have seen a mountain of additional evidence—much of it evidence presented by the defence in its case in chief.

Overall, Zimmerman was subject to direct by Frank, cross examination by Nelson, and then a very brief re-direct by Frank.

The court closed for the weekend.

(Summary acknowledgment Attorney Andrew Branca)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 05:05:05 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Angelo222

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2021, 01:03:55 PM »
I have always been interested in and followed this case where possible so it is such a relief to have an unbiased summary written so comprehensively.  This saves me hours of having to watch videos thankfully. Cheers  8((()*/

I noted several points which the forum might want to discuss.

1. Officer Chauvin was not among the first two responders to Cup Foods call to report someone passing a forged bill. He and his Chinese partner were called to help when George Floyd became uncooperative and aggressive.  Remember, Floyd was a big guy, I'm surprised two officers manage to walk him the 50m or so to the patrol car which was parked in front of the Cup Foods store. None of the officers and certainly not Chauvin were to know that Floyd had swallowed pills to hide them from the police.

2. Testimony showed that there was a delay by the EMS emergency ambulance and that poor communication resulted in several lost minutes as firefighters arrived to find no ambulance and had to go into the store to find out what was happening. I'm sure this question is going to become more and more important as the trial continues. We will never know if Floyd could have been saved had a) the EMS ambulance not had to move because of a noisy threatening crowd and b) had the firefighters arrived sooner to help with resuscitation.

3. We heard from Hansen, the off duty rookie firefighter who was stood outside Cup Foods shouting at the police. She insisted several times that the emergency services response times were wrong. She wouldn't accept that the firefighter medics took so long to turn up when their station was a mere three blocks away. Her view of the scene was slightly impeded, she wrongly claimed that Chauvin was kneeling on Floyd's neck with his hand in his pocket. A trick of the light since Chauvin had black gloves on.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 01:23:04 PM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2021, 02:57:07 PM »
Can anyone here give a reasonable defence  for an arresting officer to continue kneeling on the neck of another human being minutes after that person has stopped resisting arrest and has in fact stopped responding full stop?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2021, 03:47:11 PM »
Can anyone here give a reasonable defence  for an arresting officer to continue kneeling on the neck of another human being minutes after that person has stopped resisting arrest and has in fact stopped responding full stop?

No.

There isn't a reasonable defence to kneel on his neck once he had been handcuffed behind his back & prone on the ground, let alone when he stopped breathing & had no pulse.

That is why the only defence Chauvin has is the absurd idea that the knee never killed him but the Fentanyl did.
I stand with Putin. Glory to Mother Putin.

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2021, 05:26:04 PM »
No.

There isn't a reasonable defence to kneel on his neck once he had been handcuffed behind his back & prone on the ground, let alone when he stopped breathing & had no pulse.

That is why the only defence Chauvin has is the absurd idea that the knee never killed him but the Fentanyl did.
And yet in an online poll conducted by this forum nearly 40% of respondents had more sympathy for the killer than the man he killed.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Angelo222

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2021, 05:55:46 PM »
And yet in an online poll conducted by this forum nearly 40% of respondents had more sympathy for the killer than the man he killed.

It appears people support police officers and not the criminals.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline John

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2021, 06:06:17 PM »
Can anyone here give a reasonable defence  for an arresting officer to continue kneeling on the neck of another human being minutes after that person has stopped resisting arrest and has in fact stopped responding full stop?

Good question VS. The answer might come later as the trial progresses. Clearly the defence is going down the substance abuse and hiding illicit drugs route as contributing to the cause of death.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Angelo222

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2021, 06:09:31 PM »
Good question VS. The answer might come later as the trial progresses. Clearly the defence is going down the substance abuse and hiding illicit drugs route as contributing to the cause of death.

I would agree with them and that is why I'm going with involuntary manslaughter as the probable outcome.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline John

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2021, 06:10:50 PM »
And yet in an online poll conducted by this forum nearly 40% of respondents had more sympathy for the killer than the man he killed.

The twitter poll has been an unusual one. It now reflects slightly more sympathy for Chauvin after being skewed in Floyd's favour initially.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.