Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?

[Alfie]

G-Unit asks: "If he poses no threat why does each day bring a new attempt to discredit him? Why bother?"

The truth is Jeremy poses no threat whatsoever to the Conservatives but that in turn IS a threat to democracy in this country, because what it means is that at the very least there is very likely no credible alternative to the present government for a  minimum 5 years, but in reality more like a generation if the Labour Party is split asunder or destroyed. 

How is that good for this country?

[G-Unit]

I don't know how many times I have to say it but if Labour members are content for their party never to get into power again and to simply be a pressure group against austerity then fair enough, but who then is going to provide serious credible opposition to the Tories?  The GBP are never going to put a far left Jez-led Labour party in parliament, so what is the point of all this? 

What was stupid about my question by the way?  Why are you so very reluctant to tell us what you really think, instead of constantly taking the position of devil's advocate?

Labour members have been led away from their roots by Kinnock and Blair in pursuit of electoral victory. Perhaps they prefer to return to their roots rather than become pseudo Tories?

At the very least a clear alternative to the Tories would allow a clear choice. The Blairites weren't different enough, some seem to think.

Your question was stupid because it was a fantasy scenario which skimmed the surface of the very important ethical and ideological issues being addressed by the Labour Party at the moment. Being in power is important, but it's more important that the right people are in place first. If Corbyn wins the leadership election he will need a PLP prepared to adopt radical policies and, if elected, implement them. An impossibility with his present PLP.

I don't see our political system as particularly democratic. I don't belong to a political party. I don't believe in the first past the post system. I see capitalism as a cruel economic system because it's competitiveness means the ruthless thrive. Despite the higher standards of living it provides, the greed it encourages means those at the bottom will always struggle, if only relatively.

[Alfie]

Labour members have been led away from their roots by Kinnock and Blair in pursuit of electoral victory. Perhaps they prefer to return to their roots rather than become pseudo Tories?

At the very least a clear alternative to the Tories would allow a clear choice. The Blairites weren't different enough, some seem to think.

Your question was stupid because it was a fantasy scenario which skimmed the surface of the very important ethical and ideological issues being addressed by the Labour Party at the moment. Being in power is important, but it's more important that the right people are in place first. If Corbyn wins the leadership election he will need a PLP prepared to adopt radical policies and, if elected, implement them. An impossibility with his present PLP.

I don't see our political system as particularly democratic. I don't belong to a political party. I don't believe in the first past the post system. I see capitalism as a cruel economic system because it's competitiveness means the ruthless thrive. Despite the higher standards of living it provides, the greed it encourages means those at the bottom will always struggle, if only relatively.

Fair enough.

At the risk of asking another question that you refuse to answer on the basis that you think it's "stupid", what economic system do you think works, and where in the world do you see this working best?

[Alice Purjorick]

I don't know how many times I have to say it but if Labour members are content for their party never to get into power again and to simply be a pressure group against austerity then fair enough, but who then is going to provide serious credible opposition to the Tories?  The GBP are never going to put a far left Jez-led Labour party in parliament, so what is the point of all this? 

What was stupid about my question by the way?  Why are you so very reluctant to tell us what you really think, instead of constantly taking the position of devil's advocate?

Maybe they like being an ineffectual opposition?
After all they had years of practice with Foot and Kinnock. Perhaps they believe it is their rightful place.
The SNP currently has enough parliamentary clout to be an effectual opposition not to mention a leader who has clear views and is not afraid to articulate them. So we have a sort of "Her Majesty's Unofficial Opposition".

[Mr Gray]

Labour members have been led away from their roots by Kinnock and Blair in pursuit of electoral victory. Perhaps they prefer to return to their roots rather than become pseudo Tories?

At the very least a clear alternative to the Tories would allow a clear choice. The Blairites weren't different enough, some seem to think.

Your question was stupid because it was a fantasy scenario which skimmed the surface of the very important ethical and ideological issues being addressed by the Labour Party at the moment. Being in power is important, but it's more important that the right people are in place first. If Corbyn wins the leadership election he will need a PLP prepared to adopt radical policies and, if elected, implement them. An impossibility with his present PLP.

I don't see our political system as particularly democratic. I don't belong to a political party. I don't believe in the first past the post system. I see capitalism as a cruel economic system because it's competitiveness means the ruthless thrive. Despite the higher standards of living it provides, the greed it encourages means those at the bottom will always struggle, if only relatively.

The Labour party members want a left wing party but the electorate doesnt...thats democracy

[Alfie]

Why is it necessary to have choice between two extremes, why is it not acceptable to have more nuanced choices within the central spectrum of politics, such as that offered by 'New' Labour (dirty words now, but only because of Iraq) and "Hug A Hoody" "Compassionate" Conservatism?  Who would really want to live in a country that swings between the far left and the far right every five or ten years? 

[Alice Purjorick]

Why is it necessary to have choice between two extremes, why is it not acceptable to have more nuanced choices within the central spectrum of politics, such as that offered by 'New' Labour (dirty words now, but only because of Iraq) and "Hug A Hoody" "Compassionate" Conservatism?  Who would really want to live in a country that swings between the far left and the far right every five or ten years?

Where is this country?

[Alfie]

Where is this country?

It was a rhetorical question - "who would want to live in a country...."?  G-Unit was bemoaning the fact that the Labour Party are just "pseudo" Tories, whilst the Tories have muscled in on traditional Labour policy territory of late, so there is an overlap between the two which she presumably perceives as a negative situation.  She seems to be advocating a shift away from the centre towards the left for Labour, and presumably would not object to the same thing happening in Tory Land.  Were that to happen then the GBP would be left with a choice between two extremes rather than two more centrist parties.  Perhaps it would be more like the good old days again and that's what misty eyed nostalgists are hankering after.

[Alfie]

France is becoming one such country.  Hollande's socialist policies are so unpopular he's likely to lose to Marine Le Pen's Far Right party next year.  Perhaps this will be the situation we find ourselves in in 10 or 20 years if Jeremy gets his way....

[Alice Purjorick]

It was a rhetorical question - "who would want to live in a country...."?  G-Unit was bemoaning the fact that the Labour Party are just "pseudo" Tories, whilst the Tories have muscled in on traditional Labour policy territory of late, so there is an overlap between the two which she presumably perceives as a negative situation.  She seems to be advocating a shift away from the centre towards the left for Labour, and presumably would not object to the same thing happening in Tory Land.  Were that to happen then the GBP would be left with a choice between two extremes rather than two more centrist parties.  Perhaps it would be more like the good old days again and that's what misty eyed nostalgists are hankering after.

I cannot speak for G-Unit.
Ah the good old days; what rational objection can one have to rationing, rickets, cars that fell to bits after 25,000 miles, steam driven railway locomotives, purchase tax 33% (?), luxury tax (%lots) and a top rate of income tax at 19 shillings in the pound (95%) ?      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8OgkjcW0g4
Working from first principles "the government" has to run the country. The government has nothing to trade to raise revenue to do that, ergo taxation. So the government raises money by taking it from where it can raise the most with the least effort. ie everyone earning up to 50k on PAYE takes the hit which is up to the top 10% of earners. Whatever flavour the government is it will not odds that simple truth. What it does with it afterwards is the politically questionable thing. Does it believe funding it's own political quirks transcends the requirement for infrastructure investment just as an example........... the Brits clearly think it does. Unless of course we go back further in the good old days to when the mega rich funded major infrastructure projects to make them mega richer see Trent and Mersey Canal and Bridgewater Canal
One should also bear in mind on taxation it is enshrined in EU law that a man should pay the minimum tax that he can legally get away with ..................woweee watch out now that law is likely to go 

Simples.
End of rant

[G-Unit]

Fair enough.

At the risk of asking another question that you refuse to answer on the basis that you think it's "stupid", what economic system do you think works, and where in the world do you see this working best?

What other economic system? Everywhere seems to be capitalist or on the way to being capitalist now. That's why it needs tempering by government measures to protect the poor and powerless. A Conservative government is unlikely to put those measures in place imo.

[Alfie]

What other economic system? Everywhere seems to be capitalist or on the way to being capitalist now. That's why it needs tempering by government measures to protect the poor and powerless. A Conservative government is unlikely to put those measures in place imo.

OK open it up to any time in the last 100 years, cite another economic system that you think has worked well for its people that wasn't based on capitalism.

[Miss Taken Identity]

OK open it up to any tme in the last 100 years, cite another economic system that you think has worked well for its people that wasn't based on capitalism.

Hitlers Germany? That was a sucess story to crawl from nothing to something great... but then the murders,slaughtering ( which was also very efficiently done)! and a bloody great war lead that cute salute Nationalist Socialist party to....erm oblivion.

 ah but now....

People forget that Nazis were socialists, who hated communists... well they actually hated everyone equally, so at least they couldn't be called racists.

[Alfie]

Hitlers Germany? That was a sucess story to crawl from nothing to something great... but then the murders,slaughtering ( which was also very efficiently done)! and a bloody great war lead that cute salute Nationalist Socialist party to....erm oblivion.

 ah but now....

People forget that Nazis were socialists, who hated communists... well they actually hated everyone equally, so at least they couldn't be called racists.

Nazis couldn't be called racists?! That's a new one! 

[G-Unit]

OK open it up to any tme in the last 100 years, cite another economic system that you think has worked well for its people that wasn't based on capitalism.

There is no such system, but that doesn't mean governments should ignore the hardships it causes when whole communities lose their livelihoods.