UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on September 21, 2018, 06:19:47 AM
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Why is there uncertainty as to when the Police arrived?
John Hill's statement would be a classic:
"The deponent went to the main reception to see if the authorities had been alerted, and fifteen minutes later went to the apartment being used by the McCanns, where he saw that both members of the couple were in a panic and were shouting that the child had been taken. The deponent thinks that the GNR arrived at the scene at about 22.45, however in a conversation several weeks later, he heard someone say, he doesn't remember whom, that they had arrived at about 23.30, but as he was so busy he declared that he had no notion of the passage of time."
Can we determine the exact times?
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Why is there uncertainty as to when the Police arrived?
John Hill's statement would be a classic:
"The deponent went to the main reception to see if the authorities had been alerted, and fifteen minutes later went to the apartment being used by the McCanns, where he saw that both members of the couple were in a panic and were shouting that the child had been taken. The deponent thinks that the GNR arrived at the scene at about 22.45, however in a conversation several weeks later, he heard someone say, he doesn't remember whom, that they had arrived at about 23.30, but as he was so busy he declared that he had no notion of the passage of time."
Can we determine the exact times?
Jose Maria Batista Roque one of the first two GNR policemen on the scene, said they arrived at around 23.00 hours.
On 3rd May he was on duty at the events, he arrived at the OC at about 23.00 accompanied by Officer Costa. They were the first to arrive on the scene.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
I don't know if he is tweedledum or tweedledee though but I believe that gives us a fairly accurate time for first police arrival on the scene.
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Jose Maria Batista Roque one of the first two GNR policemen on the scene, said they arrived at around 23.00 hours.
On 3rd May he was on duty at the events, he arrived at the OC at about 23.00 accompanied by Officer Costa. They were the first to arrive on the scene.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
I don't know if he is tweedledum or tweedledee though but I believe that gives us a fairly accurate time for first police arrival on the scene.
Once Roque had received this phone call he would have felt a little dis-empowered:
"He also refers to a situation when he was searching outside, near the pool, that someone from the OC whom he cannot identify, passed him a mobile phone, as a British Consulate employee who spoke in Portuguese, wanted to talk to the authorities. Upon speaking to him, he told him that the investigation and subsequent actions were under the responsibility of the PJ."
I find that strange that this message came via someone else's phone purporting to be from the British Consulate, removing Roque's power.
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Once Roque had received this phone call he would have felt a little dis-empowered:
"He also refers to a situation when he was searching outside, near the pool, that someone from the OC whom he cannot identify, passed him a mobile phone, as a British Consulate employee who spoke in Portuguese, wanted to talk to the authorities. Upon speaking to him, he told him that the investigation and subsequent actions were under the responsibility of the PJ."
I find that strange that this message came via someone else's phone purporting to be from the British Consulate, removing Roque's power.
Unlikely to have his (Roque) mobile number when the OC's would likely to be known or easily found,so maybe not so strange.
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Unlikely to have his (Roque) mobile number when the OC's would likely to be known or easily found,so maybe not so strange.
What about the usual chain of command? Do you think it right that the GNR officer should be taking instructions from the British Consulate?
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What about the usual chain of command? Do you think it right that the GNR officer should be taking instructions from the British Consulate?
Now you understand where the Brit interference comes into it.
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What about the usual chain of command? Do you think it right that the GNR officer should be taking instructions from the British Consulate?
Why on earth do you think that?
By the way, you are off-topic already.
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Now you understand where the Brit interference comes into it.
How would Roque confirm the call had come from the British Consulate. When I first read that I thought that could easily be a scam.
I hope someone from the GNR confirmed the PJ had agreed to handle the situation.
I was thinking if the GNR are on hand but their authority has been undermined have the police actually arrived?
When did the PJ arrive? For Emma Knights' version is even worse than John Hill's.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
"I remember that the police arrived between 00.00 and 00.30, entered by the main door and went to the kitchen with Gerry."
John Hill had the police arriving at 11:30 but here Emma says they could be as late as 12:30 AM.
Who actually arrives at around 12:00 - 12:30?
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Plain clothed or uniformed its still the police.
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Vitor Manuel Martins "When questioned he confirms the integrity of the service information drawn up from the stations inquiries carried out in the early morning of 04/05/2007, adding that he arrived on the scene about 30 - 40 minutes after the phone call from the GNR, at about 00.40/00.50.
At the scene, there were already some elements from the GNR and some people walking around the OC grounds, searching for the child."
So that is saying the GNR called in the PJ around midnight.
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Vitor Manuel Martins "When questioned he confirms the integrity of the service information drawn up from the stations inquiries carried out in the early morning of 04/05/2007, adding that he arrived on the scene about 30 - 40 minutes after the phone call from the GNR, at about 00.40/00.50.
At the scene, there were already some elements from the GNR and some people walking around the OC grounds, searching for the child."
So that is saying the GNR called in the PJ around midnight.
GNR uniformed,PJ plain clothes, still the police.
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GNR uniformed,PJ plain clothes, still the police.
Tell John Hill and Emma Knights that!
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Despite the heading in the PJ files indicating Vitor Martins as a GNR officer the text of the file shows he works for the PJ. "VITOR MARTINS G.N.R. INSPECTOR"
"Vitor Manuel Martins
Occupation : PJ Officer
He is an inspector with the PJ and currently works at the Porto PJ Directorate."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm
On the night of the disappearance there appears to be at least two PJ inspectors that turn up at the scene.
Vitor Martins and the photographer "JOAO BARREIRAS PJ OFFICER"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BARREIRAS.htm is his statement about the night.
It appears the Vitor and Joao travel to the scene together and this next bit maybe the reason why no one really knows when the police arrive as they did not go to the reception but went directly to the scene as is stated here:
"When they arrived at the scene, which they immediately identified due to the presence of GNR officers, as well as quite a lot of people who were walking around the street searching for the child, they immediately went to the apartment in question, where they found several people, including some GNR officers, as well as the head of the Lagos GNR station."
But at that scene were Kate, Gerry and Silvia Batista, so they are the ones who should be able to confirm the arrival time of the PJ officers.
Were there any others?
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What does Silvia say about the arrival of the PJ?
Silvia appears to be very quiet on this matter unfortunately:
"At a given point, soon after the PJ officers arrived, the parents took the twins from their beds where they were sleeping, taking them up to the apartment on the first floor. At Kate's request the deponent took from the babies' cots the dolls and a blanket also up to the first floor. The cots stayed with only the mattresses [in them]."
I presume from that time on Kate stayed in the Payne's apartment (upstairs), but Silvia went back down with Gerry and Co. in apartment 5A.
What does Gerry say about the arrival of the PJ?
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Gerry McCanns says nothing either about the PJ arrival.
"----- The deponent had had the wrong idea that MATHEW had seen the bedroom external blinds closed when he was there at 21H30, the reason for that was that he thought the disappearance would have been happened between 21h30 and 22h00, it being that, actually, he is [?] convinced that the abduction occurred in the period understood to be between his visit at 21h05 and MATHEW'S visit at 21H30. Only about 01h00 on 4 May 2007 did he learn through RUSSELL that his companion, JANE, at 21h10, could have seen an individual crossing the top of the road with a child in his arms, that may or may not have been his daughter MADELEINE. Asked, he relates that he does not recall to have described exactly the type of pyjamas (colour, designs, etc.) that MADELEINE had worn at the time she disappeared. The photo of his daughter MADELEINE, after having printed several in the reception of the hotel, was delivered to the police (PJ) who were at the location, as well as to other persons who were there."
Are the letters (PJ) in the Portuguese statement or is that inserted by the translator for clarity?
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_902.jpg)
Top of the page is the word "Policia" no (PJ) in brackets so I deduce that (PJ) was added by the translator.
This study is getting pretty weird, and I'm hoping someone else is following it for I need help in sorting out who asked Gerry for the passports was it a GNR officer or the PJ inspector?
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Does Kate mention the arrival of the PJ, it should be somewhere near something about moving the twins upstairs hopefully?
The last 3-4 pages of the chapter called "Missing" covers Kate's interaction with the PJ. Either Silvia is lying or Kate is for they say incompatible things. Kate says the PJ left while they were still in the apartment free to take what they wanted.
The PJ say it was locked.
Someone is telling porkies! Who controlled the key? Where was the key kept till the PJ returned, was the apartment ever locked up at all?
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If the PJ leave a building open how can they ask questions like where has a certain suitcase gone? It was there when Joao took the photos at night, it was not there when they were retaken the next day, when was it taken who took it? Impossible questions, impossible to be answered, if the building was left unattended and unlocked after the PJ left.
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Why on earth do you think that?
By the way, you are off-topic already.
I don't think so, for I'm trying to work out whether a GNR officer on site without powers constitutes the "police" on site.
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I don't think so, for I'm trying to work out whether a GNR officer on site without powers constitutes the "police" on site.
Read the thread title. It has nothing to do with when the PJ arrived. Off topic.
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Read the thread title. It has nothing to do with when the PJ arrived. Off topic.
The OP is wider that the thread title, Titles are limited as to how long they are allowed to be.
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Well that was interesting in that I now know only 2 PJ staff were in attendance on the night of the 3rd. Vitor and Joao and there was another staff member in the office at Portimao. And they travelled together.
I'm not sure how many GNR turned up during the night time. We'll have to work it out, but my impression is that they arrived at various times so that could account for some of the discrepancies.
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The OP is wider that the thread title, Titles are limited as to how long they are allowed to be.
The OP isn't wider than the thread title.
But if you want to wander about with posts which have nothing to do with the GNR arriving, so be it.
It would seem the other mods are standing back and letting you get on with it, so I shall do the same.
&^&*%
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The OP isn't wider than the thread title.
But if you want to wander about with posts which have nothing to do with the GNR arriving, so be it.
It would seem the other mods are standing back and letting you get on with it, so I shall do the same.
&^&*%
It asks when did the police arrive so that includes the GNR, the PJ and Interpol if required.
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It asks when did the police arrive so that includes the GNR, the PJ and Interpol if required.
I've also changed the title to include the GNR, the PJ and Interpol, with a struggle to fit enough words in.
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Roque
Costa
ARMANDO AUGUSTO MORAIS G.N.R. OFFICER "On 4th May he was called at about 01.15, he arrived at the OC at about 1.55, accompanied by the officer Laçao. They presented themselves to Sergeant Duarte from the GNR Lagos post and were informed by him of the disappearance of a small girl from the resort. There were other GNR officers present at the scene, but he does not remember their names. There were also PJ officers present."
ANTONIO H. C. DUARTE 16 MAY & 08 NOV 07 "Upon questioning, he states that he arrived at the site of the disappearance of the young girl on 3rd May of this year, about 25 to 30 minutes after the patrol. Upon arriving at the site he was told that this was a case of abduction, this information being transmitted, he thinks, by the girl's father. He was also informed by Silvia (head of maintenance at the resort) that the parents and friends said it was an abduction, their intention being to inform the media, and that they were in fact making phone calls to this effect.
ANTONIO FREITAS SILVA DOG HANDLER "- He remembers that on the 4th of May of the current year, around 23H00, they attempted to tentatively identify and thus reconstruct the path taken by the missing minor. They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child in question. This operation was realised by two different dogs.
CARLOS M.CARVALHO LACAO 16 MAY07 "On 4th May he was called at about 01.15 when he was asleep at home, requesting him to appear at the Lagos GNR post as a small girl had disappeared. After arriving at the GNR post with his colleagues Morais and two dogs (Numi and Kit), German Shepherd dogs, which made up the search team, they immediately left for P da L. They arrived at about 02.30. When they arrived at the scene, they entered the McCann's apartment by the front door, and entered the living room, where there were some PJ officers as well as the MCCann couple. The just talked to some colleagues from the PJ and asked for a piece of clothing that Madeleine had worn or used recently. They were given a pink/orange blanket that the child had been covered with in her bed.
JOAO VASCO DA CASIMIRO 16 MAY 07 "On 4th May 2007 he entered into the service of the events occurred at 01.00, having received orders from the commander to go to P da L. He arrived at the OC complex at 01.10 and went to join Commander Duarte, who updated him on the situation and sent him to Rua da Ramalhete. On the scene where he had been sent by the Commander, he began to revise the perimeter of the resort, in a police car accompanied by his colleague, Officer Neto.
JOSE CARLOS LEAL PIMENTAL 16-05-07 "At about 00.00 on 4th May, he received a telephone call at his home from Officer Costa, informing him that a child had disappeared from P da L. he was also informed that the post commander had previously tried to contact him, which had been impossible as he had left his home, forgetting to take his mobile phone with him. He immediately left for P da L in his own car and met his post commander, Sergeant Duarte who accompanied him to the site of the events in the resort in P da L. Officer Costa was on site. The witness arrived at 00.10 - 00.15. According to orders from his superior he teamed up with Officer Costa to carry out external searches of the resort in case the girl had left the apartment and got lost nearby. At about 04.00 AM they searched the streets, gardens, caravans, lorries, etc. As well as questioning lorry drivers in the parking area next to the "Luz Tur" building, they stopped a caravan with two English individuals, who said they lived in the Espiche area. The caravan was duly searched."
JOSE MARIA BATISA ROQUE 16 MAY 07-17 OCT 07 In the sequence of facts, he was with the patrol of the GNR that went to the Ocean Club Gardens establishment (situated in Para da Luz) on night of May 03, 2007,
NELSON FILIPE P.DA COSTA 07&16 MAY 07 "On the 3rd May he arrived at the resort in P da L at about 23.00, accompanied by officer Roque. They went to the OC reception. At that moment Madeleine’s father arrived at the reception and informed them of the events. After having found out what happened, he went to the exact place Madeleine had disappeared from, accompanied by Roque, the girl’s father and a woman who was acting as interpreter, whose name he does not remember and another individual, a friend of the girl’s father, whose name he does not recall.
NELSON P.F.DA COSTA 17 OCT 07 "Regarding the facts on 3rd May, when he was on patrol with his colleague Roque in the Odiaxere zone, they received a radio communication from the central, telling them to go to P da L, specifically to the OC resort reception where the father of a little girl who had gone missing was. When they were on their way to this place and in the Valverde area, they received a new communication, informing them that this was a very young child and that her father had called again. They continued on their way, now with urgency, heading for the main reception of the resort."
PEDRO MIGUEL E.FERNANDES DOG HANDLER " On the 4th of May of the current year, around 23h, he was asked to use the two sniffer dogs he has trained in the search operation that attempted to reconstruct the route taken by the missing minor. For this purpose he made the dogs sniff a bath towel which had supposedly been used by the missing minor."
PAOLO JORGE CARVAIHOSA DA COSTA 16 MAY 07 "On 3rd May when he was at home, he was contacted by the GNR post commander who asked him to go to P da L. He arrived at the OC at 00.05 on 4th May having contacted his colleague Nelson Costa who informed him about the situation.
PAULO J. FERNANDES NETO 16 MAY 07 "On the night of 4th May at 01.00 after having begun duty at his post, he first heard, from the Patrol Commander, Officer Casimiro, that a girl had disappeared and that he to go and join his colleagues who were there. At about 01.05-01.20 they arrived at the site
RUI SEGIO LOPES SILVA 16 MAY 07 "Together with his colleague, Santos, he immediately offered to do all that was necessary to help. After having helped his previously mentioned colleague prepare a message to distribute the news, he left for the OC in his own car. He arrived with his colleague Santos between 00.00 and 00.01 and presented himself to the GNR post commander, Duarte.
2 arrive around 11:00 PM (Roque and Da Costa)
Duarte arrives around 11:30 PM
some arrive at midnight
Some arrive at 12:15 AM
some arrive at 12:20 AM
Some arrive at 1:55 AM
Some more dog handlers arrive at 11:00 PM on the 4th.
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2 arrive around 11:00 PM (Roque and Da Costa)
Duarte arrives around 11:30 PM
some arrive at midnight
Some arrive at 12:15 AM
some arrive at 12:20 AM
Some arrive at 1:55 AM
Some more dog handlers arrive at 11:00 PM on the 4th.
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Then there are claim's that the Portuguese were doing nothing!
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Then there are claim's that the Portuguese were doing nothing!
Local dogs and handlers at 02.30am, search and rescue dogs from Lisbon at 07.30 am........
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Local dogs and handlers at 02.30am, search and rescue dogs from Lisbon at 07.30 am........
Thanks for I was only looking at those listed under GNR in the alphabetical section.
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Then there are claim's that the Portuguese were doing nothing!
The efforts to stop a potential kidnapping were rather pitiful. When I think it through it is one of the hardest things to do. A kidnapper would put the child in the boot so there would be no child to see in the car. Has that ever been achieved before?
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Who observes the GNR arriving?
Robin Crossland seems to keep quite a good record of the events. He says: "That at around 22H50, local elements of the GNR arrived and took charge of the occurrence, and began to manage and lead the search operations of the child missing in the area;
. That until the GNR arrived at the local it was John Hill who determined what to do; "
Silvia turns up in time to accompany the GNR over to the apartment.
"She drove immediately to the Ocean Club where she arrived a few minutes before elements of the GNR popped in.
After she arrived she went immediately to the apartment A5 where she found several people inside the apartment and outside of it. She entered in the flat but soon left without having spoken with anyone, because she was informed that elements of the GNR were in the principal reception. She went there to meet them.
When she came close to the elements of the GNR she found that behind her was
Gerry, Madeleine's father, accompanied by another man whose identity she doesn't remember.
Then Gerry kneeled down, hit the floor with both hands, positioning himself as if he were a praying Arab, and screamed twice of anger, what he said being impossible to understand. Then Gerry stand up and accompanied her (the witness) and the other man in the car of the GNR to the apartment A5.
She entered the apartment and asked for the passports of all elements of the family, and also photographs of the missing girl. She went with Gerry to the GNR car to hand over the requested documents. She mentions she did this, as well as other tasks, at the request of the GNR Commandant, because she could translate their questions and the missing girl's family's answers.
She remembers Gerry gave the Commandant of several photographs of the missing girl. They were postcard-like pictures, taking into account their size and shape and seemed all the same to her."
It confuses me a little for the GNR want the passports and photos and so do the PJ. It seems repetitive but maybe that is what happens when there are two police forces.
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Who observes the GNR arriving?
Robin Crossland seems to keep quite a good record of the events. He says: "That at around 22H50, local elements of the GNR arrived and took charge of the occurrence, and began to manage and lead the search operations of the child missing in the area;
. That until the GNR arrived at the local it was John Hill who determined what to do; "
Silvia turns up in time to accompany the GNR over to the apartment.
"She drove immediately to the Ocean Club where she arrived a few minutes before elements of the GNR popped in.
After she arrived she went immediately to the apartment A5 where she found several people inside the apartment and outside of it. She entered in the flat but soon left without having spoken with anyone, because she was informed that elements of the GNR were in the principal reception. She went there to meet them.
When she came close to the elements of the GNR she found that behind her was
Gerry, Madeleine's father, accompanied by another man whose identity she doesn't remember.
Then Gerry kneeled down, hit the floor with both hands, positioning himself as if he were a praying Arab, and screamed twice of anger, what he said being impossible to understand. Then Gerry stand up and accompanied her (the witness) and the other man in the car of the GNR to the apartment A5.
She entered the apartment and asked for the passports of all elements of the family, and also photographs of the missing girl. She went with Gerry to the GNR car to hand over the requested documents. She mentions she did this, as well as other tasks, at the request of the GNR Commandant, because she could translate their questions and the missing girl's family's answers.
She remembers Gerry gave the Commandant of several photographs of the missing girl. They were postcard-like pictures, taking into account their size and shape and seemed all the same to her."
It confuses me a little for the GNR want the passports and photos and so do the PJ. It seems repetitive but maybe that is what happens when there are two police forces.
I get the impression that police work can be repetitive with different people asking for the same information at different times.
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The efforts to stop a potential kidnapping were rather pitiful. When I think it through it is one of the hardest things to do. A kidnapper would put the child in the boot so there would be no child to see in the car. Has that ever been achieved before?
What exactly did you expect? Road blocks on every road in Portugal stopping and searching every single vehicle? Police at all Portuguese airports checking every single passenger travelling with small girls? Police stopping everyone with a small girl on every street in Portugal? Has any police force anywhere in the world ever done that?
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The efforts to stop a potential kidnapping were rather pitiful. When I think it through it is one of the hardest things to do. A kidnapper would put the child in the boot so there would be no child to see in the car. Has that ever been achieved before?
What are the lines to be drawn up,a stop and search perimeter of how many miles? no one but no one saw any thing suspicious involving a bundling of a child into a car.Given there were at least two reports of two separate persons carrying kids around.
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What are the lines to be drawn up,a stop and search perimeter of how many miles? no one but no one saw any thing suspicious involving a bundling of a child into a car.Given there were at least two reports of two separate persons carrying kids around.
And one of those reports didn't surface for another 2 weeks. How long did it take to mobilise 8 GNR officers? How would you ever organise sufficient roadblocks to stop an abduction?
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I get the impression that police work can be repetitive with different people asking for the same information at different times.
Why didn't the GNR hand over the information they had to the PJ when they arrived.
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And one of those reports didn't surface for another 2 weeks. How long did it take to mobilise 8 GNR officers? How would you ever organise sufficient roadblocks to stop an abduction?
First you establish an abduction took place,like I said before why set up road blocks if there were no reports of any one bundling a child into a car.
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First you establish an abduction took place,like I said before why set up road blocks if there were no reports of any one bundling a child into a car.
But even if there was there was no way of getting the machinery in place to stop that car. Think of bank robbers they end up changing identity, and changing cars.
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But even if there was there was no way of getting the machinery in place to stop that car. Think of bank robbers they end up changing identity, and changing cars.
Leave it out Rob.
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Leave it out Rob.
What I'm saying the thought of stopping the transit of a kidnapped girl is virtually impossible.
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What I'm saying the thought of stopping the transit of a kidnapped girl is virtually impossible.
Off topic I know but Robert Black was only caught after some one saw him abduct a girl.
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What I'm saying the thought of stopping the transit of a kidnapped girl is virtually impossible.
Why criticise what the Portuguese did then?
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Why criticise what the Portuguese did then?
Did I?
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Did I?
Some of your recent posts can be interpreted in that fashion.
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Some of your recent posts can be interpreted in that fashion.
Which one or ones? Well the one about locking up the apartment has me totally baffled. Did the PJ lock the apartment after they went home, or was it left open so the GNR had a base to work from?
Were the McCanns told they can take whatever they like that night as Kate says?
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Some of your recent posts can be interpreted in that fashion.
In Your Opinion.
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Which one or ones? Well the one about locking up the apartment has me totally baffled. Did the PJ lock the apartment after they went home, or was it left open so the GNR had a base to work from?
Were the McCanns told they can take whatever they like that night as Kate says?
Your post 28 would do for a start
"The efforts to stop a potential kidnapping were rather pitiful. When I think it through it is one of the hardest things to do. A kidnapper would put the child in the boot so there would be no child to see in the car. Has that ever been achieved before?"
How else should one interpret that?
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Your post 28 would do for a start
"The efforts to stop a potential kidnapping were rather pitiful. When I think it through it is one of the hardest things to do. A kidnapper would put the child in the boot so there would be no child to see in the car. Has that ever been achieved before?"
How else should one interpret that?
I read all those GNR statements and not one sounded like an effective way of catching a child kidnapper. Could they have inspected every car leaving PdL that night. How many roads would they have had to block off?
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Did I?
Yes you did. "The efforts to stop a potential kidnapping were rather pitiful." Then you say " How would you ever organise sufficient roadblocks to stop an abduction?"
You seem to be lurching from one opinion to the opposite one.
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The efforts to stop a potential kidnapping were rather pitiful. When I think it through it is one of the hardest things to do. A kidnapper would put the child in the boot so there would be no child to see in the car. Has that ever been achieved before?
Several people seem to have objected to my post but what I noted there were dribs and drabs of GNR turning up over the night. I'd like to know what the best response from the GNR could have been?
Could they have mustered 100 soldiers to establish roadblocks on all the roads leading out of PdL? The sort of response one would expect if there was a genuine kidnapping.
What I notice was the GNR going around looking over areas already covered by the T9 and the areas covered by the OC missing child procedures.
Look and contrast to the way the Ocean Club procedures were kicked into action. Lyndsay called at around 10:20 PM and the procedures commenced searching by 10:25 and by the time John Hill turned up there were 100 staff and volunteers involved in the search.
I find that a truly remarkable response and amazing organisation by the lower level staff.
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Several people seem to have objected to my post but what I noted there were dribs and drabs of GNR turning up over the night. I'd like to know what the best response from the GNR could have been?
Could they have mustered 100 soldiers to establish roadblocks on all the roads leading out of PdL? The sort of response one would expect if there was a genuine kidnapping.
What I notice was the GNR going around looking over areas already covered by the T9 and the areas covered by the OC missing child procedures.
Look and contrast to the way the Ocean Club procedures were kicked into action. Lyndsay called at around 10:20 PM and the procedures commenced searching by 10:25 and by the time John Hill turned up there were 100 staff and volunteers involved in the search.
I find that a truly remarkable response and amazing organisation by the lower level staff.
So, should the GNR do this every time a child wanders out of an unattended flat?
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The efforts to stop a potential kidnapping were rather pitiful. When I think it through it is one of the hardest things to do. A kidnapper would put the child in the boot so there would be no child to see in the car. Has that ever been achieved before?
I seem to recall most of the GNR were aware the parents and their friends were treating the case as an abduction. There was some effort put in by the GNR to treat it as a possible abduction, some warnings had gone out to patrols over the country and to the local airport. There was trouble getting a response to the call out at the airport though and that was recorded.
Did any one of the road patrols take any action based on the requests?
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So, should the GNR do this every time a child wanders out of an unattended flat?
A lot of people had been searching the local area for the best part of 30 minutes when the first two GNR called in. The T9 had been looking from just after 10:00.
That phone call supposedly from the UK Consulate telling him (Officer Roque) that the GNR did not have jurisdiction but the PJ were to handle the case. Who was that? Was that genuine, did that kill his ability to activate a full blown response without the permission of the PJ? I would have hated to have been in Roque's shoes, he'd be wondering who in the PJ was dealing with this case, when are they coming what do they want me to do?
When the PJ do finally turn up they cover the same ground the GNR had already done, the passports were in the apartment, Madeleine wasn't going to cross a border with her old passport. Pointless taking down those details again.
They took a few photos and left the apartment locked or unlocked no one knows for sure.
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A lot of people had been searching the local area for the best part of 30 minutes when the first two GNR called in. The T9 had been looking from just after 10:00.
That phone call supposedly from the UK Consulate telling him (Officer Roque) that the GNR did not have jurisdiction but the PJ were to handle the case. Who was that? Was that genuine, did that kill his ability to activate a full blown response without the permission of the PJ? I would have hated to have been in Roque's shoes, he'd be wondering who in the PJ was dealing with this case, when are they coming what do they want me to do?
When the PJ do finally turn up they cover the same ground the GNR had already done, the passports were in the apartment, Madeleine wasn't going to cross a border with her old passport. Pointless taking down those details again.
They took a few photos and left the apartment locked or unlocked no one knows for sure.
Passports weren’t necessarily required.
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Passports weren’t necessarily required.
The McCanns had their passports with them that is fact. Did they need them at the airports to prove they were European Union citizens? I don't know the policies over there.
As soon as the first two dog patrols had indicated Madeline had wandered as far as the car park, that should have sent alarm bells ringing for the reason a trail ends in a car park is likely to be because a car is involved.
Did the GNR not report this to the PJ that night?
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The McCanns had their passports with them that is fact. Did they need them at the airports to prove they were European Union citizens? I don't know the policies over there.
As soon as the first two dog patrols had indicate Madeline had wandered as far as the car park, that should have sent alarm bells ringing for the reason a trail ends in a car park is likely to be because a car is involved.
Did the GNR not report this to the PJ that night?
Portugal is in the Schengen area so no passports needed to move to adjacent countries.
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Portugal is in the Schengen area so no passports needed to move to adjacent countries.
What about at airports getting back from the Portugal to the UK did they have to show their passports? Well tell me why did they bring their passports on holiday, and why would both the GNR and the PJ ask the McCanns for their passport details as a priority?
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What about at airports getting back from the Portugal to the UK did they have to show their passports? Well tell me why did they bring their passports on holiday, and why would both the GNR and the PJ ask the McCanns for their passport details as a priority?
Lookup Schengen area. Easier than trying to explain.
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The McCanns had their passports with them that is fact. Did they need them at the airports to prove they were European Union citizens? I don't know the policies over there.
As soon as the first two dog patrols had indicate Madeline had wandered as far as the car park, that should have sent alarm bells ringing for the reason a trail ends in a car park is likely to be because a car is involved.
Did the GNR not report this to the PJ that night?
Thing is though ... the dogs and their handlers started at the apartment and followed a trail which ended up in the car park ... but was that necessarily the direction of travel? Were they tracking Madeleine or a stronger scent?
Is it possible the trail started in the car park, turned right to move up the street, crossed the road to the lane and from there proceeded along the apartment block to end, not start at the apartment door?
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Thing is though ... the dogs and their handlers started at the apartment and followed a trail which ended up in the car park ... but was that necessarily the direction of travel? Were they tracking Madeleine or a stronger scent?
Is it possible the trail started in the car park, turned right to move up the street, crossed the road to the lane and from there proceeded along the apartment block to end, not start at the apartment door?
I've never trained a tracking dog, but I'd imagine it was looking for the strongest trail leading from the apartment.
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Lookup Schengen area. Easier than trying to explain.
https://traveltips.usatoday.com/europeans-need-passport-travel-between-countries-europe-105883.html
EU Countries Requiring Passports
Certain countries in the European Union do not belong to the Schengen Area, and EU nationals must show their passports – or other valid national ID – when entering or exiting these countries. At the time of publication, European nationals must show their IDs when entering or exiting the United Kingdom, Ireland, Cyprus, Croatia, Bulgaria or Romania. The U.K.'s upcoming exit from the EU may further affect this, however the regulations have not been put in place yet."
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I've never trained a tracking dog, but I'd imagine it was looking for the strongest trail leading from the apartment.
The point I was making is that the trail didn't necessarily start where the dogs picked it up ... it could have ended there and the dogs could have followed it back.
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Your post 28 would do for a start
"The efforts to stop a potential kidnapping were rather pitiful. When I think it through it is one of the hardest things to do. A kidnapper would put the child in the boot so there would be no child to see in the car. Has that ever been achieved before?"
How else should one interpret that?
Well dear Jass, one could, if one wanted to, prevent a kidknapping by merely looking after ones child. 8**8:/:
Oh do you think that was a general question? ah no worries same answer applies!
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A lot of people had been searching the local area for the best part of 30 minutes when the first two GNR called in. The T9 had been looking from just after 10:00.
That phone call supposedly from the UK Consulate telling him (Officer Roque) that the GNR did not have jurisdiction but the PJ were to handle the case. Who was that? Was that genuine, did that kill his ability to activate a full blown response without the permission of the PJ? I would have hated to have been in Roque's shoes, he'd be wondering who in the PJ was dealing with this case, when are they coming what do they want me to do?
When the PJ do finally turn up they cover the same ground the GNR had already done, the passports were in the apartment, Madeleine wasn't going to cross a border with her old passport. Pointless taking down those details again.
They took a few photos and left the apartment locked or unlocked no one knows for sure.
"A lot of people had been searching the local area for the best part of 30 minutes when the first two GNR called in. The T9 had been looking from just after 10:00."
Ok now with more knowledge we find that a time was claimed to have been when MBM was DISCOVERED missing. 10pm. Who called the police and did they tell them on the phone that a child was abducted as she was left alone in an apartment sleeping while her parents were eating and drinking? I don't think so. AND were they told when the last time the child was seen by both parents> AND the actual timescale for a child to 'disappear' . bed time - 10pm. A good few hours for an 'abductor' oh, but wait... JT saw tha abducter just after GM had left the apartment..
Now the tapas knew fine well there were no physical checks on their children- they also knew when their children were last checked- few hours! so why did they all run back to 'search' the bedroom she was abducted from?
The PJ were NOT called out to an emergency abducted child, just a missing one.
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"A lot of people had been searching the local area for the best part of 30 minutes when the first two GNR called in. The T9 had been looking from just after 10:00."
Ok now with more knowledge we find that a time was claimed to have been when MBM was DISCOVERED missing. 10pm. Who called the police and did they tell them on the phone that a child was abducted as she was left alone in an apartment sleeping while her parents were eating and drinking? I don't think so. AND were they told when the last time the child was seen by both parents> AND the actual timescale for a child to 'disappear' . bed time - 10pm. A good few hours for an 'abductor' oh, but wait... JT saw tha abducter just after GM had left the apartment..
Now the tapas knew fine well there were no physical checks on their children- they also knew when their children were last checked- few hours! so why did they all run back to 'search' the bedroom she was abducted from?
The PJ were NOT called out to an emergency abducted child, just a missing one.
I have read your post and you've got so much wrong I wonder where to start. Have you read each statement in the GNR section? Did you read what it was they were rushing there to do?
Did you read that Roque was given a phone call supposedly from the UK Consulate? Was that phone call ever investigated? Could that have been the kidnappers trying to give themselves more time, by delaying the investigation?
Surely he wasn't lying about the phone call and what was being said to him. But who put their hand up and said the phone call was made by me?
Did you read that one of the GNR officers failed to take his cell phone with him and failed to get an important call? Was the message just left on the voice messages.?
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I have read your post and you've got so much wrong I wonder where to start. Have you read each statement in the GNR section? Did you read what it was they were rushing there to do?
Did you read that Roque was given a phone call supposedly from the UK Consulate? Was that phone call ever investigated? Could that have been the kidnappers trying to give themselves more time, by delaying the investigation?
Surely he wasn't lying about the phone call and what was being said to him. But who put their hand up and said the phone call was made by me?
Did you read that one of the GNR officers failed to take his cell phone with him and failed to get an important call? Was the message just left on the voice messages.?
What kidnappers? Names them.
They were looking for a missing child that is why they said she may have wandred off and would maybe come back. Why would they think that? SOMETHING to do with them not believing the Tapas.
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Let's have a look
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARMANDO_MORAIS.htm "Armando" - great name!
What the heck does this mean? "As he did not obtain any results in the area close to the resort, he extended the perimeter of the search to a distance of 1 km."
Does he mean the radius of the search was 1 KM or the circumference was 1 km. I take it to mean he kept approximately 1 km from the apartment and did a full circuit from a start point. Remember circumference = 2 pi radius squared. so that is about a 7 km long circuit. Quite a task. But why did he do that if his dog picked up nothing close by you'd wonder why go further out. Maybe the scent on the clothing wasn't that great. What clothing item was it? Was it Madeleine's? Did Kate confirm that it was?
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What kidnappers? Names them.
They were looking for a missing child that is why they said she may have wandred off and would maybe come back. Why would they think that? SOMETHING to do with them not believing the Tapas.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_DUARTE.htm
Duarte was above Roque and this is what Roque reported to him "After Roque checked that the child was not in the apartment, he gathered information from the mother and father. He was told by the patrol, that the father had put forward a theory saying that it could have been an abduction. He was also told that there was a shutter that had been 'raised'."
Kidnapping or abduction all about the same in my book.
Who was plugging in ideas that contradicted the parent's theory? Was it Silvia as her role as translator? Was she was able to plug in her ideas and how do we know what the Tapas 9 wanted to say was translated properly? Did she translate it with conviction?
I've already complained to Operation Grange that Silvia Batista had a conflict of interest when she was translating for the Tapas 9 and representing the management of the OC at the same time.
In her statement I see evidence of her undermining the McCanns and Jane Tanner.
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Duarte also states:
"He arrived alone, in his own car at about 23.50 and went to the apartment (to the entrance hall) by means of the front door (opposite the parking area) where he found the girl's parents, a couple and Silvia. He was told that the twins were still sleeping in the bedroom. On the patio next to the front door, was an English woman who had spoken to the patrol, and had referred to having see someone pass in the street, in a dark area, who was carrying a child. As the information had already been gathered and given his limited knowledge of English, he did not manage to talk to the woman."
So that defines that Jane must have spoken to Roque before midnight about see the man carrying a child.
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"Kidnapping or abduction all about the same in my book."
OK name them. or offer evidence of your claim.
I've already complained to Operation Grange that Silvia Batista had a conflict of interest when she was translating for the Tapas 9 and representing the management of the OC at the same time.
Did they get back to you?
In her statement I see evidence of her undermining the McCanns and Jane Tanner.
undermining? not just plain old non believer
So, Gerry suggested an abduction took place to the GNR, and mentioned that a shutter had been raised?
who closed it? when was it closed, why was it closed it was a crime scene... OR Was it?
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
Decribes the path his dog took after sniffing the bath towel. "4th of May of the current year, around 23H00" i.e. one day later.
More searches on the 8th as well.
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Here is an interesting piece of information
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-LACAO.htm
"When they entered the apartment they did not speak to anyone, not wanting to get in the way of other GNR officers present. During the searches they only spoke to the sergeant, from the Lagos GNR post, with a GNR officer and with a security guard who was present, he does not remember what company he was from. The conversation was about whether they had found anything.
That security guard I haven't seen him being mentioned before?
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The point I was making is that the trail didn't necessarily start where the dogs picked it up ... it could have ended there and the dogs could have followed it back.
You have me confused. Are you saying the dogs tracked Madeleine back to 5a?
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You have me confused. Are you saying the dogs tracked Madeleine back to 5a?
Do the dogs know which way the person walked?
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_CASIMIRO.htm
I like this - he is sent to a particular spot but he doesn't stay there!
"On 4th May 2007 he entered into the service of the events occurred at 01.00, having received orders from the commander to go to P da L. He arrived at the OC complex at 01.10 and went to join Commander Duarte, who updated him on the situation and sent him to Rua da Ramalhete.
On the scene where he had been sent by the Commander, he began to revise the perimeter of the resort, in a police car accompanied by his colleague, Officer Neto."
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Do the dogs know which way the person walked?
My post was in response to Brietta, Rob but clearly the dogs didn't know which way the person walked but neither do their handlers, you, Brietta, nor me. The obvious place to start a search with sniffer dogs is the last known location of the missing person not some shop/house yard away though.
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My post was in response to Brietta, Rob but clearly the dogs didn't know which way the person walked but neither do their handlers, you, Brietta, nor me. The obvious place to start a search with sniffer dogs is the last known location of the missing person not some shop/house yard away though.
I agree with you.
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Now this sounds a bit suspicious: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_PIMENTAL.htm
"At about 04.00 AM they searched the streets, gardens, caravans, lorries, etc. As well as questioning lorry drivers in the parking area next to the "Luz Tur" building, they stopped a caravan with two English individuals, who said they lived in the Espiche area. The caravan was duly searched.
When carrying out the search of the resort area they also saw several local people helping to search. He remembers a woman named Silvia who worked at the resort.
He left for home at about 04.20."
Silvia Isabel Cunha Azevedo Cravinho does not get involved in the search.
Silvia Batista doesn't describe searching
Since he mentions something at 4:00 AM and going home at 4:20 AM did the sighting of Silvia happen in between?
He seems to know Silvia Batista but didn't Silvia say she was at home in Lagos at 4:00 AM?
No it was her husband Joao "That he immediately left for the OC where he arrived at about 23.00 and immediately began to search the resort and the beach area, searching in all the places where the child might be. The searches were carried out by employees from the Tapas and the restaurant who had just finished their shifts and by some local people. He continued searching until about 04.00 when he returned home with his wife." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BATISTA.htm
So it is possible Silvia joined in searching before she went home.
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Robittybob1. You started this thread enquiring as to when the GNR arrived on site and twice you have taken posts off topic. I have a mind to request this thread be deleted as it is below par and utterly confusing.
PS. The GNR arrived on site at 2300 hrs.
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You have me confused. Are you saying the dogs tracked Madeleine back to 5a?
With apologies for turning this into another dog thread and very much off topic ... that is not what I am saying. I am suggesting that it is possible that the dogs were not following Madeleine' scent.
We have no idea who was last to touch the blanket the dogs were given to sniff.
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With apologies for turning this into another dog thread and very much off topic ... that is not what I am saying. I am suggesting that it is possible that the dogs were not following Madeleine' scent.
We have no idea who was last to touch the blanket the dogs were given to sniff.
Didn't the McCanns give the GNR dog handlers the blanket. I would imagine they would give the police something that would be covered in Madeleine's scent IMO.
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Robittybob1. You started this thread enquiring as to when the GNR arrived on site and twice you have taken posts off topic. I have a mind to request this thread be deleted as it is below par and utterly confusing.
PS. The GNR arrived on site at 2300 hrs.
The last few posts were attempts to answer Miss Taken Identity's question about what the GNR knew of their reason for being there.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10184.msg490480#msg490480 and a subsequent post.
She puts up very challenging posts that are not the easiest to reply to.
I'm looking at all aspects of the GNR and PJ arrival, who when why etc. What they did, what they report, could all be included in the thread really.
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Robittybob1. You started this thread enquiring as to when the GNR arrived on site and twice you have taken posts off topic. I have a mind to request this thread be deleted as it is below par and utterly confusing.
PS. The GNR arrived on site at 2300 hrs.
Two of the GNR arrive at that time, but none of the Ocean club management confirm that time. I was trying to work out why.
Silvia even travels back in the car along with Gerry, Gerry's friend, and the two GNR officers. A total of 5 in the car.
"After she arrived she went immediately to the apartment A5 where she found several people inside the apartment and outside of it. She entered in the flat but soon left without having spoken with anyone, because she was informed that elements of the GNR were in the principal reception. She went there to meet them."
Someone informed Silvia that the GNR had arrived.
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With apologies for turning this into another dog thread and very much off topic ... that is not what I am saying. I am suggesting that it is possible that the dogs were not following Madeleine' scent.
We have no idea who was last to touch the blanket the dogs were given to sniff.
Surely the predominant scent on the blanket would have been Madeleine's.
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Surely the predominant scent on the blanket would have been Madeleine's.
We are going to get this conversation scrubbed, Robbity, way off topic. Being familiar with babies and cuddle blankets I am aware the blanket would be washed constantly and in my opinion certainly before they left for Portugal.
There could be a stronger scent than Madeleine's associated with it or associated with the apartment and the passageway which the dogs followed back to source.
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Well dear Jass, one could, if one wanted to, prevent a kidknapping by merely looking after ones child. 8**8:/:
Oh do you think that was a general question? ah no worries same answer applies!
A 6 yr old in the UK was taken from her bath whilst her mother and brother were in their home and had just left her. She was in earshot of them
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/oct/20/ukcrime
The mother was unable to prevent the abduction because she was unaware of it despite being so close. This mother and all reasonable people would be very distressed to hear you say that if she wanted to, she could have prevented a kidnapping; that she wasn't looking after her child.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/oct/20/ukcrime
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Let's have a look
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARMANDO_MORAIS.htm "Armando" - great name!
What the heck does this mean? "As he did not obtain any results in the area close to the resort, he extended the perimeter of the search to a distance of 1 km."
Does he mean the radius of the search was 1 KM or the circumference was 1 km. I take it to mean he kept approximately 1 km from the apartment and did a full circuit from a start point. Remember circumference = 2 pi radius squared. so that is about a 7 km long circuit. Quite a task. But why did he do that if his dog picked up nothing close by you'd wonder why go further out. Maybe the scent on the clothing wasn't that great. What clothing item was it? Was it Madeleine's? Did Kate confirm that it was?
Soz Rob,
Have another look at your formula.
Circumference should be 2pi radius.
The squared bit only comes in when one is considering area of the circle
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_DUARTE.htm
Duarte was above Roque and this is what Roque reported to him "After Roque checked that the child was not in the apartment, he gathered information from the mother and father. He was told by the patrol, that the father had put forward a theory saying that it could have been an abduction. He was also told that there was a shutter that had been 'raised'."
Kidnapping or abduction all about the same in my book.
Who was plugging in ideas that contradicted the parent's theory? Was it Silvia as her role as translator? Was she was able to plug in her ideas and how do we know what the Tapas 9 wanted to say was translated properly? Did she translate it with conviction?
I've already complained to Operation Grange that Silvia Batista had a conflict of interest when she was translating for the Tapas 9 and representing the management of the OC at the same time.
In her statement I see evidence of her undermining the McCanns and Jane Tanner.
Another hardworking forum poster who I admired for her logic and thoroughness, also expressed doubt at the veracity of Sylvia Batista
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Another hardworking forum poster who I admired for her logic and thoroughness, also expressed doubt at the veracity of Sylvia Batista
Can you recall who that might have been Sadie? In her book Kate raves on about how helpful Silvia was. No doubt she helped, but Kate and Gerry really needed the GNR to accept the "Madeleine was abducted" theory. I see one part of the GNR team stopped a caravan and searched it. I wonder how much more effective the GNR could have been if the officers without dogs or even all of them searched vehicles leaving PdL. I think the dogs could be really useful to sniff out any hidden compartment in a vehicle containing a girl.
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Didn't the McCanns give the GNR dog handlers the blanket. I would imagine they would give the police something that would be covered in Madeleine's scent IMO.
There are three descriptions of the items given to the GNR for the purposes of giving their dogs a scent to follow.
Two of the items seem successful in getting the dogs active
1. That was the Turkish towel
2. The pink blanket.
3 But the third was described as "clothing" and that dog did not pick up any trail; around the apartment.
Was this a third item or just a bad description?
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The last few posts were attempts to answer Miss Taken Identity's question about what the GNR knew of their reason for being there.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10184.msg490480#msg490480 and a subsequent post.
She puts up very challenging posts that are not the easiest to reply to.
I'm looking at all aspects of the GNR and PJ arrival, who when why etc. What they did, what they report, could all be included in the thread really.
"She puts up very challenging posts that are not the easiest to reply to. "
Indeed, lots of questions which have no real easy explanation- but thanks for trying.
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So, should the GNR do this every time a child wanders out of an unattended flat?
There was the case where a child was abducted from the bath, so what do you have? Someone carrying a naked child somewhere! Sounds really planned.
Can every case of child abduction be prevented by the parents? With the coordination of parents and community it can be kept to a minimum.
Where within part of the community it is common place to have men carrying little kids dressed in pyjamas down the streets, especially in a holiday resort where people don't really know their neighbours - Houston we have a big problem.
On that one night we had two sightings of a man carrying a child on the streets within an hour. And the community members thought it was probably a normal situation.
There must be a distance out from a night creche where it would be unusual for a man to be seen carrying a child at night so that normality does not extend out that far I presume.
If an abductor had a car and had sedated his victim and then drove off, he still needs a destination.
But that type of situation it would be impossible to contain the situation within a boundary for a car can always go further and faster than your ability to contain the driver.
So we would have to think someone really organised to kidnap a child by motor vehicle would be rather impossible to stop. But then this type of abductor may get observed in the planning stages.
A vehicle accident, a type of hit and run situation where the body is picked up from the scene, no planning stages, and leaving little evidence, and driving off by car. How are you going to prevent that especially if the driver is on his own?
I would say most situations are not fully planned out and they are the ones that could be caught by establishing a perimeter around the township. If you can't stop vehicles, at least get CCTV (e.g. Dash cam recordings, list of number plates, of the vehicles entering and leaving the containment area).
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So, should the GNR do this every time a child wanders out of an unattended flat?
Not every time but if the parents and their friends have looked and they say the child has been taken - yes.
But there was a stage earlier than that. What should have been the right response from OC? Should they have only called the GNR once the 20 minutes of unfruitful searching has been completed? And remember that 20 minutes comes after the 10 minutes or so it took to gather enough staff to perform the missing child procedures.
And then you've got the response of the GNR to the phone calls - should they dropped what they were doing and come as fast as possible?
So even though Kate's immediate diagnosis was that Madeleine had been taken, her friends didn't think so.
I think Amy Tierney agreed with Kate in that it looked like she had been taken, but the OC still organised the missing child procedures (which are not designed to solve an abducted child).
When the GNR are finally rung there is no urgency until the second call and then the GNR speed up in getting there.
The GNR then were totally understaffed to contain a child abduction situation.
When the PJ finally turn up they don't see any signs of a break in and hence disbelieve Kate's plea that she's been taken and they walk away from the situation after a couple of hours.
The GNR at least persist with their tracker dogs looking for a lost girl, but only make half hearted attempts at checking vehicles coming and going. Were there cars, trucks, vans on the roads? They stop and search a single caravan.
What did Amy Tierney say about the findings she made?
"She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.
The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.
However there was a bed against the window, which could have enabled the girl to climb up onto it and then up to the window, the witness thinks it would not be possible as she would not be able to open the shutters and even if she had done so she would have fallen outside as the window is too high for a child of that age to be able to descend without falling."
these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone. Did Amy not say this to Lyndsay?
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Not every time but if the parents and their friends have looked and they say the child has been taken - yes.
But there was a stage earlier than that. What should have been the right response from OC? Should they have only called the GNR once the 20 minutes of unfruitful searching has been completed? And remember that 20 minutes comes after the 10 minutes or so it took to gather enough staff to perform the missing child procedures.
And then you've got the response of the GNR to the phone calls - should they dropped what they were doing and come as fast as possible?
So even though Kate's immediate diagnosis was that Madeleine had been taken, her friends didn't think so.
I think Amy Tierney agreed with Kate in that it looked like she had been taken, but the OC still organised the missing child procedures (which are not designed to solve an abducted child).
When the GNR are finally rung there is no urgency until the second call and then the GNR speed up in getting there.
The GNR then were totally understaffed to contain a child abduction situation.
When the PJ finally turn up they don't see any signs of a break in and hence disbelieve Kate's plea that she's been taken and they walk away from the situation after a couple of hours.
The GNR at least persist with their tracker dogs looking for a lost girl, but only make half hearted attempts at checking vehicles coming and going. Were there cars, trucks, vans on the roads? They stop and search a single caravan.
What did Amy Tierney say about the findings she made?
"She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.
The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.
However there was a bed against the window, which could have enabled the girl to climb up onto it and then up to the window, the witness thinks it would not be possible as she would not be able to open the shutters and even if she had done so she would have fallen outside as the window is too high for a child of that age to be able to descend without falling."
these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone. Did Amy not say this to Lyndsay?
Unless there is some evidence of abduction I would say the repose you advocate is over the top.
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Unless there is some evidence of abduction I would say the repose you advocate is over the top.
It wouldn't have triggered the much vaunted Amber Alert even if there'd been one in place.
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Unless there is some evidence of abduction I would say the repose you advocate is over the top.
Well it would be justified at the stage of the Tapas 9 not finding Madeleine in the vicinity. She had no shoes on so she isn't going to walk far in bare feet. Amy and Kate both concluded she had "been taken". That is evidence of abduction.
window open
shutters up
girl missing
Girl not found in vicinity
I could imagine that OC did not have procedures for the rare event of an abduction. They had no idea what to do, so they do what they usually do, just look for a missing girl.
Because they also don't see what Kate and Amy saw they think she has just wandered too.
It is the continual lessening of the response I see that as the problem. For if they had done the over the top response it would be effective in finding the missing girl too, even if she was missing because people who knew her were moving her.
Only if a car had picked her up and left the area that type of situation can't be stopped by any sort of response locally.
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It wouldn't have triggered the much vaunted Amber Alert even if there'd been one in place.
What would trigger an Amber Alert then?
Amber alert named after Amber Hagerman https://youtu.be/uJfN5vdxxzk
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It wouldn't have triggered the much vaunted Amber Alert even if there'd been one in place.
https://www.amberalert.gov/guidelines.htm
Summary of Department of Justice Recommended Criteria
There is reasonable belief by law enforcement that an abduction has occurred.
The law enforcement agency believes that the child is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death.
There is enough descriptive information about the victim and the abduction for law enforcement to issue an AMBER Alert to assist in the recovery of the child.
The abduction is of a child aged 17 years or younger.
The child’s name and other critical data elements, including the Child Abduction flag, have been entered into the National Crime Information Center (NCIC) system.
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https://www.amberalert.gov/guidelines.htm
Summary of Department of Justice Recommended Criteria
There is reasonable belief by law enforcement that an abduction has occurred.
The law enforcement agency believes that the child is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death.
There is enough descriptive information about the victim and the abduction for law enforcement to issue an AMBER Alert to assist in the recovery of the child.
The abduction is of a child aged 17 years or younger.
The child’s name and other critical data elements, including the Child Abduction flag, have been entered into the National Crime Information Center (NCIC) system.
as well as descriptive information about the suspect and the suspect’s vehicle.
https://www.amberalert.gov/guidelines.htm
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Well it would be justified at the stage of the Tapas 9 not finding Madeleine in the vicinity. She had no shoes on so she isn't going to walk far in bare feet. Amy and Kate both concluded she had "been taken". That is evidence of abduction.
window open
shutters up
girl missing
Girl not found in vicinity
I could imagine that OC did not have procedures for the rare event of an abduction. They had no idea what to do, so they do what they usually do, just look for a missing girl.
Because they also don't see what Kate and Amy saw they think she has just wandered too.
It is the continual lessening of the response I see that as the problem. For if they had done the over the top response it would be effective in finding the missing girl too, even if she was missing because people who knew her were moving her.
Only if a car had picked her up and left the area that type of situation can't be stopped by any sort of response locally.
Spain was 1hr 22mins away by car.
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Spain was 1hr 22mins away by car.
Do you think a patrol at the border could be organised in time? Probably 20 minutes has passed before the alarm is raised?
How many border crossings are there?
What would the instructions be? Would you suggest they stop and inspect every vehicle, and for how long would the assignment go on?
I did see some figures and there was a vehicle every few seconds across that bridge they talk about. How were you going to manage that?
"Toll Fees: ( New Portuguese Government Regulation)
If you are traveling to Portugal by road, do not forget to bring with you a 20€ bill (local currency), to pay for your toll fee, when crossing the following highway borders:
* Northern borders:
- Highway A3 : Valença do Minho (Portugal) - Tuy (Spain);
- Highway IP3: Chaves (Portugal) - Verín (Spain);
*Center border:
- Highway A25: Vilar Formoso (Portugal) - Fuentes de Oñoro (Spain);
*Southern borders:
- Highway A6: Elvas (Portugal) - Badajoz (Spain);
- Highway A22: Vila Real de Santo António (Portugal) - Ayamonte (Spain);
Once toll fees are electronically paid for resident citizens (they have to buy a electronic chip to be used inside the vehicle which is read by the toll machine, when passing the toll portal), foreign visitors, have to STOP at the border and pay this amount (single price) for all the borders, wherever be your destination, inside the Country. The payment is processed through a sort of ATM machine, but there are assistants nearby, to help you to use it, if you need so. "
So that is 5 major border crossings.
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Do you think a patrol at the border could be organised in time? Probably 20 minutes has passed before the alarm is raised?
How many border crossings are there?
What would the instructions be? Would you suggest they stop and inspect every vehicle, and for how long would the assignment go on?
I did see some figures and there was a vehicle every few seconds across that bridge they talk about. How were you going to manage that?
If you ever get back on track, you should be able to work out that Kate raised the alarm just after 10pm, and the GNR arrived at 5A around 11.20pm.
From their actions and testimonies, the GNR were looking at that time for a missing girl, not an abducted girl.
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If you ever get back on track, you should be able to work out that Kate raised the alarm just after 10pm, and the GNR arrived at 5A around 11.20pm.
From their actions and testimonies, the GNR were looking at that time for a missing girl, not an abducted girl.
I would agree with those timings but it should be made clear that the GNR went to main reception first at 11pm where they met Gerry and others before driving up to 5a.
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Spain was 1hr 22mins away by car.
Yellow Notices
Yellow notices are a valuable law enforcement tool that can increase the chances of a missing person being located, particularly if there is a possibility that the person might travel, or be taken, abroad.
What is the purpose of an INTERPOL Yellow Notice?
A Yellow Notice is a global alert to help locate missing persons, or to identify persons who are unable to identify themselves.
Who are the subjects of Yellow Notices?
Yellow Notices are published for victims of parental abductions, criminal abductions (kidnappings) or unexplained disappearances.
How is a Yellow Notice published?- Police in one of our member countries request a Yellow Notice via their National Central Bureau and provide information on the case.
- The INTERPOL General Secretariat publishes the Notice.
- Police all around the world are alerted.
Why is the Yellow notice important?- It gives high, international visibility to cases
- Abducted/missing persons are flagged to border officials, making travel difficult
- Countries can request and share critical information linked to the investigation.
https://www.interpol.int/INTERPOL-expertise/Notices/Yellow-Notices
On the 8th May ... Goncalo Amaral requested a yellow alert be issued in Madeleine McCann's case http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELINE.htm
Given that the border with Spain was 1hr 22mins away by car ... how many other international borders would it have been possible to take Madeleine over by land sea or air in the days between the 3rd and the 8th before the request for a yellow alert was made?
In my opinion Madeleine McCann was a little missing child disastrously let down by police who did not use every single resource available to them at the time of most urgent priority s far as she was concerned ... as the late date of the 8th asking for international cooperation in this most elementary of matters proves.
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If you ever get back on track, you should be able to work out that Kate raised the alarm just after 10pm, and the GNR arrived at 5A around 11.20pm.
From their actions and testimonies, the GNR were looking at that time for a missing girl, not an abducted girl.
Why do you say "11:20 PM", I can't see why it would take 25 minutes to get there from the reception.
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Why do you say "11:20 PM", I can't see why it would take 25 minutes to get there from the reception.
As you have just invented 25 minutes, and dropped the 'around' from my 'around 11.20pm', I don't see anything in your post worthy of discussion.
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As you have just invented 25 minutes, and dropped the 'around' from my 'around 11.20pm', I don't see anything in your post worthy of discussion.
Then why bother to comment?
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Then why bother to comment?
To show how inaccurate the post was.
Not all of our guests would have gleaned it was inaccurate. I suspect that not all of our posting members would have gleaned it was inaccurate.
In attempting to build a forensic timeline, there is no room for such basic inaccuracies.
And lest you ask, yes, a forensic timeline of what happened AFTER the balloon went up may well be critical.
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To show how inaccurate the post was.
Not all of our guests would have gleaned it was inaccurate. I suspect that not all of our posting members would have gleaned it was inaccurate.
In attempting to build a forensic timeline, there is no room for such basic inaccuracies.
And lest you ask, yes, a forensic timeline of what happened AFTER the balloon went up may well be critical.
Then tell us about it.
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To show how inaccurate the post was.
Not all of our guests would have gleaned it was inaccurate. I suspect that not all of our posting members would have gleaned it was inaccurate.
In attempting to build a forensic timeline, there is no room for such basic inaccuracies.
And lest you ask, yes, a forensic timeline of what happened AFTER the balloon went up may well be critical.
You just threw down your figures without proof. I have no idea how long the GNR took to get there but Silvia says it was travelled both ways in a car.
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You just threw down your figures without proof. I have no idea how long the GNR took to get there but Silvia says it was travelled both ways in a car.
What was travelled both ways in a car?
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What was travelled both ways in a car?
Silvia's trips.
She was at the apartment, someone informed her the GNR were turning up. Then she drove over to reception, met Gerry and his friend and then they all took the GNR's car back to the apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
"After she arrived she went immediately to the apartment A5 where she found several people inside the apartment and outside of it. She entered in the flat but soon left without having spoken with anyone, because she was informed that elements of the GNR were in the principal reception. She went there to meet them.
When she came close to the elements of the GNR she found that behind her was
Gerry, Madeleine's father, accompanied by another man whose identity she doesn't remember.
Then Gerry kneeled down, hit the floor with both hands, positioning himself as if he were a praying Arab, and screamed twice of anger, what he said being impossible to understand. Then Gerry stand up and accompanied her (the witness) and the other man in the car of the GNR to the apartment A5."
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It maybe possible to identify who it was "Gerry's friend" that was in the car with the GNR.
It will have to be either Matt or Russell.
Do either of them mention the GNR turning up?
Russell says "And I think possibly Sylvia this Housekeeper, I think she came in, I think she was offering to translate at some point." So that is distancing himself from being the one in the car with Silvia.
and later "Reply “Yeah well I think the ones that I had, I took, you know cos obviously they were printing out, you know they were slow you know, we really wanted to get them to the Police fairly quickly, so I took the first couple of copies and took those round to, I think the GNR staff, I presume they were the origin, you know original uniformed Officers, it wasn’t the PJ, it was well before the PJ arrived, erm there were other copies printed off which I don’t know where they got to but I know that Mark WARNER, somebody in Mark WARNER made a poster, or at least an A4 err saying that there’d been, you know, there’d been a, err an abduction and that Madeleine was missing and that was circulated around the next morning, so somebody had, had, had that photograph and used it for that poster but I took, I don’t know two or three copies maybe and gave them to the Police. I actually think ultimately there may have been more copies printed off and somebody else gave even more copies to them as well, err and I think some of the other copies were shown, were just shown to people around who were going on the searches but erm personally”."
Russell says something like delivering photos to the GNR while at the same time others still had the card reader possibly printing off more photos. Is he blaming the selection of the poster photo on "Mark Warner" staff?
What does Matt say? He was over at the reception when the GNR arrive and Silvia is there, and he talks about Gerry being in the car, but comes short on saying he hoped in too!
"Reply 'You are and yet people on the outside of it, erm, responded in a much more practical way, of course, they would do, but with decent suggestions about doing this, doing that, you know. But, erm, we were there about sort of eleven, ten past eleven when the GNR sort of Police arrived and there was two of them in a Police car. Somebody's asked whether the siren was on and I think the lights were flashing but I don't remember, and I may have heard the siren in the distance, but I can't recall. So they arrived just about five minutes after Gerry and I had been there. And one of the cleaning ladies I think came to translate, I think this is Sylvia or Sylvie, I'm not sure, but she was there helping, you know, saying, this is, you know, this is the father. And they put him in the car and drove back up to the apartment."
" so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'.
00.51.10 4078 'Quite quick then''
Reply 'Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe."
Matt definitely feels a lack of urgency to call the police.
In this next bit Matt mentions the police 5 times:
"Erm, at some point we were back and forth to the, to the reception as well. And I think what the reception probably did was ring the MARK WARNER people and say, there's somebody that's saying there's a child missing, because by that time there were lost of MARK WARNER people around, erm, and they were very good, they, you know, they obviously, you know, got there and that might have been the impetus that got them to ring the Police, if, because I understand that there is some discrepancy about when we thought we'd called the Police and when the Police were actually called and that might be that they went on the, on that route first and then went, I think it's Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well, erm, and, erm, you know, was obviously, you know, sort of intermittently sort of calm and then completely, you know, hysterically upset, it was sort of, you know, it was sort of pretty sort of upsetting, because you didn't know what to really say, because you can't really say, you know, it's going to be okay, because, you know, you assume the worst and it's going to be particularly awful, you know, it's going, you know, some, erm, person's got, (inaudible), some xxxxxxx's got my, you know, got my daughter and she's so innocent"
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Silvia's trips.
She was at the apartment, someone informed her the GNR were turning up. Then she drove over to reception, met Gerry and his friend and then they all took the GNR's car back to the apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
"After she arrived she went immediately to the apartment A5 where she found several people inside the apartment and outside of it. She entered in the flat but soon left without having spoken with anyone, because she was informed that elements of the GNR were in the principal reception. She went there to meet them.
When she came close to the elements of the GNR she found that behind her was
Gerry, Madeleine's father, accompanied by another man whose identity she doesn't remember.
Then Gerry kneeled down, hit the floor with both hands, positioning himself as if he were a praying Arab, and screamed twice of anger, what he said being impossible to understand. Then Gerry stand up and accompanied her (the witness) and the other man in the car of the GNR to the apartment A5."
This does not say that Silvia drove her car from G5 to OC reception. The method of getting there is not specified.
The fact that she got in the GNR car to get from OC reception to 5A suggests she did not have her car with her, i.e. that she had walked from 5A to OC reception.
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This does not say that Silvia drove her car from G5 to OC reception. The method of getting there is not specified.
The fact that she got in the GNR car to get from OC reception to 5A suggests she did not have her car with her, i.e. that she had walked from 5A to OC reception.
Have you got this information Rob? Sounds like Matthew to me.
A GNR patrol arrives at Ocean Club (two men); When they arrived they saw the girl's father, a friend whom GNR Officer N. F. P. d. C. describes as tall and blond,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
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Have you got this information Rob? Sounds like Matthew to me.
A GNR patrol arrives at Ocean Club (two men); When they arrived they saw the girl's father, a friend whom GNR Officer N. F. P. d. C. describes as tall and blond,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
I would agree it was Matthew or Matt as I call him. But in the bit I quote Matt only says Gerry got in the car, for some reason he doesn't mention himself.
the part " I think this is Sylvia or Sylvie, I'm not sure, but she was there helping, you know, saying, this is, you know, this is the father. And they put him in the car and drove back up to the apartment."
Why doesn't he mention himself here? 3 other people say someone else was in the car.
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This does not say that Silvia drove her car from G5 to OC reception. The method of getting there is not specified.
The fact that she got in the GNR car to get from OC reception to 5A suggests she did not have her car with her, i.e. that she had walked from 5A to OC reception.
Alright I think you need to look at her husband's statement too. One or the other says they drove to OC reception at that time. So once there Joao can take care of the car when Silvia travels with the GNR.
OK I'm a bit confused but I'm sure I've read it!
Joao says: "they drove from Lagos to OC and got there about 11:00. "That he knows about the situation in the OC relating to the disappearance of the little girl, having been informed on the same day, at about 22.30 by phone by the OC administrator, who had contacted his wife, Silvia Batista.
That he immediately left for the OC where he arrived at about 23.00 and immediately began to search the resort and the beach area, searching in all the places where the child might be. The searches were carried out by employees from the Tapas and the restaurant who had just finished their shifts and by some local people. He continued searching until about 04.00 when he returned home with his wife."
So they definitely have a car between them agreed?
Silvia says she called in at the apartment before going to reception. Do you think they went to reception first then to G5A then back to reception, met up with the GNR then Silvia travelled back with the GNR? That is quite possible.
Maybe I didn't add enough to my quote from Silvia:
"As she said earlier she was alerted about the disappearance of Madeleine between 22.30 and 23:00. She was at home and was informed of the event via a telephone call.
She drove immediately to the Ocean Club where she arrived a few minutes before elements of the GNR popped in.
After she arrived she went immediately to the apartment A5 where she found several people inside the apartment and outside of it. She entered in the flat but soon left without having spoken with anyone, because she was informed that elements of the GNR were in the principal reception. She went there to meet them.
I do think those last two movements involved the same car they had driven in to get to OC don't you?
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Have you got this information Rob? Sounds like Matthew to me.
A GNR patrol arrives at Ocean Club (two men); When they arrived they saw the girl's father, a friend whom GNR Officer N. F. P. d. C. describes as tall and blond,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
OK - making progress, hopefully.
Is tall and blond an accurate description of Mathew? Is it enough to nail him as the one of the 3 male friends of Gerry?
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OK - making progress, hopefully.
Is tall and blond an accurate description of Mathew? Is it enough to nail him as the one of the 3 male friends of Gerry?
You have a choice of Matthew, Russell or David.
David is dark.
Russell is blond and doesn't describe being at reception when the GNR arrive.
Matt is sometimes described as tall and blond and also greying, but he describes himself as being with Gerry at OC reception when the GNR arrive. " And they put him in the car and drove back up to the apartment."
Had he said " And they put him in the car and drove us back up to the apartment" we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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Alright I think you need to look at her husband's statement too. One or the other says they drove to OC reception at that time. So once there Joao can take care of the car when Silvia travels with the GNR.
OK I'm a bit confused but I'm sure I've read it!
Joao says: "they drove from Lagos to OC and got there about 11:00. "That he knows about the situation in the OC relating to the disappearance of the little girl, having been informed on the same day, at about 22.30 by phone by the OC administrator, who had contacted his wife, Silvia Batista.
That he immediately left for the OC where he arrived at about 23.00 and immediately began to search the resort and the beach area, searching in all the places where the child might be. The searches were carried out by employees from the Tapas and the restaurant who had just finished their shifts and by some local people. He continued searching until about 04.00 when he returned home with his wife."
So they definitely have a car between them agreed?
Silvia says she called in at the apartment before going to reception. Do you think they went to reception first then to G5A then back to reception, met up with the GNR then Silvia travelled back with the GNR? That is quite possible.
Maybe I didn't add enough to my quote from Silvia:
"As she said earlier she was alerted about the disappearance of Madeleine between 22.30 and 23:00. She was at home and was informed of the event via a telephone call.
She drove immediately to the Ocean Club where she arrived a few minutes before elements of the GNR popped in.
After she arrived she went immediately to the apartment A5 where she found several people inside the apartment and outside of it. She entered in the flat but soon left without having spoken with anyone, because she was informed that elements of the GNR were in the principal reception. She went there to meet them.
I do think those last two movements involved the same car they had driven in to get to OC don't you?
The Batistas had a car, agreed.
"She arrived a few minutes before elements of the GNR popped in." Witness statement timings are notoriously unreliable, but the time of 11pm is given.
The time at which the GNR turned up is critical. And I don't have a definitive measure for it.
The sequence is important - Silvia before the GNR - later the GNR turning up. When Gerry met up with the GNR in main reception is also vital.
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Have you got this information Rob? Sounds like Matthew to me.
A GNR patrol arrives at Ocean Club (two men); When they arrived they saw the girl's father, a friend whom GNR Officer N. F. P. d. C. describes as tall and blond,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
From that Timeline theory document which isnot actualy an official file document but a study (IMO) by someone unknown to me, it makes it impossible to be Matthew.
"23.00/23.05 pm - A GNR patrol arrives at Ocean Club (two men); When they arrived they saw the girl's father, a friend whom GNR Officer N. F. P. d. C. describes as tall and blond, an OC employee and a translator who was also an OC employee, named S.B.. He found it notable that when they were still at the main reception, the father kneeled down, laying his head on the ground and crying, at the same time as making an expression which GNR Officer N. F. P. d. C. did not understand.
Estimated time around 23.10 pm Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by E.L.K. when she was on her way to the beach, the search area to which she was assigned by L. J. (child care director and search coordinator)."
Matthew can't be in the car with Gerry and at the beach with David Payne at the same time.
So could the tall blond in the car actually be Russell?
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From that Timeline http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm Kazlux has:
"23.20/23.30 Manager J.H. asked hotel manager E. L. K. to go to the apartment the girl had disappeared from and, on behalf of Mark Warner, provide all the help the family might need. She went to the McCann's apartment, entered by the patio doors and introduced herself to Kate and Mrs Payne. She entered the apartment living room and Kate and Mrs Payne stayed in the main bedroom, from where she could hear them both crying."
Wouldn't she have noticed the GNR and Silvia there as well at that time?
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from the Timeline
"Between 00.00 and 00.30, the police arrived, entered by the main door and went to the kitchen with Gerry. Hotel manager E. L. K. went to the bedroom where Kate and Mrs Payne were. Kate was still upset, crying and calling Madeleine's name, shouting "where is she?" She also banged on the headboard. At that moment Hotel manager E. L. K. went to check on the twins in their room and they were ok. She remembers being in the main bedroom with Kate, Mrs Payne, Gerry, Russell and David who were sitting on the bed and she sat on the floor. At that moment David suggested that the press should be contacted. Russell disagreed, saying they should keep calm and let the police take care of the situation."
After picking up Gerry, Silvia and the friend did the GNR drive around for the next hour or so? before going to the apartment?
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The Batistas had a car, agreed.
"She arrived a few minutes before elements of the GNR popped in." Witness statement timings are notoriously unreliable, but the time of 11pm is given.
The time at which the GNR turned up is critical. And I don't have a definitive measure for it.
The sequence is important - Silvia before the GNR - later the GNR turning up. When Gerry met up with the GNR in main reception is also vital.
Thanks for replying and sorry for not reading your post sooner. Look I can easily see the situation of Silvia not really knowing where the various parties are meeting up. Some meet at the Tapas area some at the main reception. So if Silvia and Joao drive around to the main reception and find the GNR are not there, there is a chance they actually went straight around to Tapas, so someone needs to check, Silvia has a car and goes around there, but while there the GNR turn up at the main reception so she drives back there, Joao at the wheel, so each movement is done quickly.
The 11:00 PM timing matches with what the GNR themselves say.
The order of the GNR help determine the time. If someone turns up and Roque and Da Costa are already there two of them turned up before the third one did.
Well does Gerry know when the GNR turned up?
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Gerry does not mention the GNR
There is one sentence "They continued with searches outside around the various apartment blocks, the deponent having asked MATHEW who went to the secondary reception [where] the event was communicated to the local police, since he had no doubt that his daughter had been kidnapped [abducted]."
I'm not sure if he is talking about phoning the police or actually talking to the police face to face.
At another location Gerry is reported as saying
"Only about 01h00 on 4 May 2007 did he learn through RUSSELL that his companion, JANE, at 21h10, could have seen an individual crossing the top of the road with a child in his arms, that may or may not have been his daughter MADELEINE. Asked, he relates that he does not recall to have described exactly the type of pyjamas (colour, designs, etc.) that MADELEINE had worn at the time she disappeared. The photo of his daughter MADELEINE, after having printed several in the reception of the hotel, was delivered to the police (PJ) who were at the location, as well as to other persons who were there."
I can't tell if the events described here are sequential or not.
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In Gerry's arguido statement only one comment is relevant to this thread
"--- When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way.
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom."
So once the police arrived Gerry stayed with them. Seems reasonable to me.
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This is where Sylvia Batista's phone call to Lagos GNR becomes key.
She does not say she she made such a phone call. But it is in the GNR Lagos phone records.
From memory, it was made at 11.09.
Clearly, before this call Sylvia was not aware the GNR had turned up. This call was probably the source for her knowing the GNR were in reception. So at that time, Sylvia went reception to help with translating.
More certainly, by the time of that phone call, Sylvia was not in the back of a GNR car heading from the OC to 5A, and the GNR had not arrived at 5A.
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This is where Sylvia Batista's phone call to Lagos GNR becomes key.
She does not say she she made such a phone call. But it is in the GNR Lagos phone records.
From memory, it was made at 11.09.
Clearly, before this call Sylvia was not aware the GNR had turned up. This call was probably the source for her knowing the GNR were in reception. So at that time, Sylvia went reception to help with translating.
More certainly, by the time of that phone call, Sylvia was not in the back of a GNR car heading from the OC to 5A, and the GNR had not arrived at 5A.
That call seems to have been made at 11.02 on the morning of 4th. I can see nothing on the evening of 3rd.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CALLS_TO_GNR.htm Pages 3051/2
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This is where Sylvia Batista's phone call to Lagos GNR becomes key.
She does not say she she made such a phone call. But it is in the GNR Lagos phone records.
From memory, it was made at 11.09.
Clearly, before this call Sylvia was not aware the GNR had turned up. This call was probably the source for her knowing the GNR were in reception. So at that time, Sylvia went reception to help with translating.
More certainly, by the time of that phone call, Sylvia was not in the back of a GNR car heading from the OC to 5A, and the GNR had not arrived at 5A.
Can you see her number on the calls register?
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That call seems to have been made at 11.02 on the morning of 4th. I can see nothing on the evening of 3rd.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CALLS_TO_GNR.htm Pages 3051/2
Could you take me step by step through that please?
What is the phone number we are looking for?
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Could you take me step by step through that please?
What is the phone number we are looking for?
We don't have complete phone numbers, just the first and last three numbers. Silvia's number began with 964 and ended with 114;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_851.jpg
If you look at the pages of calls to the GNR that number called them on the morning of 4th.
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This is where Sylvia Batista's phone call to Lagos GNR becomes key.
She does not say she she made such a phone call. But it is in the GNR Lagos phone records.
From memory, it was made at 11.09.
Clearly, before this call Sylvia was not aware the GNR had turned up. This call was probably the source for her knowing the GNR were in reception. So at that time, Sylvia went reception to help with translating.
More certainly, by the time of that phone call, Sylvia was not in the back of a GNR car heading from the OC to 5A, and the GNR had not arrived at 5A.
Back to the drawing board
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That call seems to have been made at 11.02 on the morning of 4th. I can see nothing on the evening of 3rd.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CALLS_TO_GNR.htm Pages 3051/2
Perhaps I am getting confused, but 3051/2 seems to be calls made from the OC land-line.
If there is a further call from the OC land-line to GNR Lagos at 11.02 on 4/5/07, I was not aware of that one. Many thanks.
The call I am thinking of appears in the list of calls received by GNR Lagos on 3 May. It's the horrible misordered one, but it contains the calls from Securitas to GNR Lagos.
The call in question is from Sylvia's mobile to GNR Lagos, so it will not turn up in OC land-line records.
I guess I need to dig out Sylvia's mobile number, plus the page with the call on it.
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We don't have complete phone numbers, just the first and last three numbers. Silvia's number began with 964 and ended with 114;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_851.jpg
If you look at the pages of calls to the GNR that number called them on the morning of 4th.
If SIL is correct someone rang Silvia from the OC landline at 11:02 on the 4th.
I know the issue of Silvia ringing the GNR has been raised before on the forum.
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Perhaps I am getting confused, but 3051/2 seems to be calls made from the OC land-line.
If there is a further call from the OC land-line to GNR Lagos at 11.02 on 4/5/07, I was not aware of that one. Many thanks.
The call I am thinking of appears in the list of calls received by GNR Lagos on 3 May. It's the horrible misordered one, but it contains the calls from Securitas to GNR Lagos.
The call in question is from Sylvia's mobile to GNR Lagos, so it will not turn up in OC land-line records.
I guess I need to dig out Sylvia's mobile number, plus the page with the call on it.
I think you are right with this.
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Perhaps I am getting confused, but 3051/2 seems to be calls made from the OC land-line.
If there is a further call from the OC land-line to GNR Lagos at 11.02 on 4/5/07, I was not aware of that one. Many thanks.
The call I am thinking of appears in the list of calls received by GNR Lagos on 3 May. It's the horrible misordered one, but it contains the calls from Securitas to GNR Lagos.
The call in question is from Sylvia's mobile to GNR Lagos, so it will not turn up in OC land-line records.
I guess I need to dig out Sylvia's mobile number, plus the page with the call on it.
You say in one of your blogs:
https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/tag/silvia-batista/
"There is another call of interest on this sheet. 964098114 called GNR Lagos at 11.09pm, lasting 41 seconds. This mobile number was noted as belonging to Silvia Batista. That call I will park for another post."
Phone list - (https://shininginluz.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/12_volume_xiia_page_31591.jpg)
Phonecall to GNR at 11:09 approx.
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Perhaps I am getting confused, but 3051/2 seems to be calls made from the OC land-line.
If there is a further call from the OC land-line to GNR Lagos at 11.02 on 4/5/07, I was not aware of that one. Many thanks.
The call I am thinking of appears in the list of calls received by GNR Lagos on 3 May. It's the horrible misordered one, but it contains the calls from Securitas to GNR Lagos.
The call in question is from Sylvia's mobile to GNR Lagos, so it will not turn up in OC land-line records.
I guess I need to dig out Sylvia's mobile number, plus the page with the call on it.
Ah, the one I found was from OC to Silvia's mobile! Sorry, SiL!
How about this sheet? 23:08:46
(https://shininginluz.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/12_volume_xiia_page_31591.jpg)
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Ah, the one I found was from OC to Silvia's mobile! Sorry, SiL!
How about this sheet? 23:08:46
(https://shininginluz.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/12_volume_xiia_page_31591.jpg)
That's the one.
Now to be pedantic, the call started at 23.08.46 and lasted 41 seconds.
Equally, while 964098114 cannot be matched in full to the staff lists due to redaction, enough remains to strongly suggest it is Silvia's mobile, not someone elses.
Quite why Silvia would have the GNR mobile in her mobile and chose not to use an OC land-line is beyond me, but I will stick with the records we have got.
Silvia called GNR Lagos at 23.09, probably to be told that the GNR were already in OC reception. Even though she glosses over this in her statement.
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Back to the drawing board
Egg on face time.
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That's the one.
Now to be pedantic, the call started at 23.08.46 and lasted 41 seconds.
Equally, while 964098114 cannot be matched in full to the staff lists due to redaction, enough remains to strongly suggest it is Silvia's mobile, not someone elses.
Quite why Silvia would have the GNR mobile in her mobile and chose not to use an OC land-line is beyond me, but I will stick with the records we have got.
Silvia called GNR Lagos at 23.09, probably to be told that the GNR were already in OC reception. Even though she glosses over this in her statement.
I used to have the number of the local police in my mobile contacts. It depends if she had had reason to ring them at another time, I suppose. Perhaps she rang them because of the obvious distress in 5A.
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... snip ...
Silvia called GNR Lagos at 23.09, probably to be told that the GNR were already in OC reception. Even though she glosses over this in her statement.
Silvia's statement does say she was informed the GNR were at the main reception. If this is how she was informed we have a fixed point in time. 23.09 Silvia at the apartment G5A.
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I used to have the number of the local police in my mobile contacts. It depends if she had had reason to ring them at another time, I suppose. Perhaps she rang them because of the obvious distress in 5A.
Silvia was sent there by her manager Robin Crossland to be an interpreter so it was important for her to be with the GNR when they arrive.
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I would like the researchers to consider who it was that travelled with the GNR officers Roque and da Costa, along with Gerry and Silvia.
It is a bit odd in the end that with the involvement of Silvia in the whole affair over the identification of Robert Murat that she doesn't recall who it was. Was it Russell O'Brien (ROB) or was it Matthew Oldfield (MO)?
In the research on those calls made by Silvia I noticed Pegasus had claimed it was MO. The problem with saying it was MO is that that would make Emma Knight's statement totally impossible.
Maybe Pegasus was wrong. I'd love to be able to work that out.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6160.msg237938#msg237938
"The GNR spent some time at main reception as the father was there, also MO, and SB who translated what the father said. Then the 2 GNR (and GM MO and SB) went in the GNR car to the apartment.(source: Da Costa statement Oct 2007).
ETA If we allow a few minutes translation at reception and 1 minute drive that gives arrival at 5A at about 2300?"
I don't have a problem with the GNR arriving at reception at 23.00 Hours. I don't think Pegasus actually says why he thinks this was MO. It isn't a bad guess as MO was asked to call the police right from the beginning.
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I would like the researchers to consider who it was that travelled with the GNR officers Roque and da Costa, along with Gerry and Silvia.
It is a bit odd in the end that with the involvement of Silvia in the whole affair over the identification of Robert Murat that she doesn't recall who it was. Was it Russell O'Brien (ROB) or was it Matthew Oldfield (MO)?
In the research on those calls made by Silvia I noticed Pegasus had claimed it was MO. The problem with saying it was MO is that that would make Emma Knight's statement totally impossible.
Maybe Pegasus was wrong. I'd love to be able to work that out.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6160.msg237938#msg237938
"The GNR spent some time at main reception as the father was there, also MO, and SB who translated what the father said. Then the 2 GNR (and GM MO and SB) went in the GNR car to the apartment.(source: Da Costa statement Oct 2007).
ETA If we allow a few minutes translation at reception and 1 minute drive that gives arrival at 5A at about 2300?"
I don't have a problem with the GNR arriving at reception at 23.00 Hours. I don't think Pegasus actually says why he thinks this was MO. It isn't a bad guess as MO was asked to call the police right from the beginning.
Gerry phoned Kate at 23.17 I believe. That suggests they weren't together so was he on his way back from reception then?
According to Emma Knight Russell was around, but she never mentions Matthew;
Gerry returned to the apartment accompanied by Russell......I remember being in the main bedroom with Kate, Mrs Payne, Gerry, Russell and David
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
Russell. however, says;
at the time the police arrived he was not present as he was searching for Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN.htm
It was Matthew;
But, erm, we were there about sort of eleven, ten past eleven when the GNR sort of Police arrived and there was two of them in a Police car......So they arrived just about five minutes after Gerry and I had been there. And one of the cleaning ladies I think came to translate, I think this is Sylvia or Sylvie, I'm not sure, but she was there helping, you know, saying, this is, you know, this is the father.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
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Gerry phoned Kate at 23.17 I believe. That suggests they weren't together so was he on his way back from reception then?
According to Emma Knight Russell was around, but she never mentions Matthew;
Gerry returned to the apartment accompanied by Russell......I remember being in the main bedroom with Kate, Mrs Payne, Gerry, Russell and David
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
Russell. however, says;
at the time the police arrived he was not present as he was searching for Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN.htm
It was Matthew;
But, erm, we were there about sort of eleven, ten past eleven when the GNR sort of Police arrived and there was two of them in a Police car......So they arrived just about five minutes after Gerry and I had been there. And one of the cleaning ladies I think came to translate, I think this is Sylvia or Sylvie, I'm not sure, but she was there helping, you know, saying, this is, you know, this is the father.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
I appreciate your effort but obviously I'm going to have to ask you for a little assistance to understand your POV.
Tell me about that phone call from Gerry to Kate please?
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Where does this list come from http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2705.msg221304#msg221304
Why are some names marked XXXX?
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I see my problem now. There must be a big mistake in the file: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
"23.00/23.05 pm - A GNR patrol arrives at Ocean Club (two men); When they arrived they saw the girl's father, a friend whom GNR Officer N. F. P. d. C. describes as tall and blond, an OC employee and a translator who was also an OC employee, named S.B.. He found it notable that when they were still at the main reception, the father kneeled down, laying his head on the ground and crying, at the same time as making an expression which GNR Officer N. F. P. d. C. did not understand.
Estimated time around 23.10 pm Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by E.L.K. when she was on her way to the beach, the search area to which she was assigned by L. J. (child care director and search coordinator).
23:14 Gerry calls Kate (8 seconds)
23:17 Gerry calls Kate (31 seconds)"
That sentence "Estimated time around 23.10 pm Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by E.L.K. when she was on her way to the beach" is given the wrong time frame.
Emma in the report to Control Risks mentions this encounter but it must have been a lot earlier than 23.10.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-SEP-07.htm#oa29-p11to14
"Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by Emma Knights when she was on her way to the beach, the search area to which she was assigned by Lyndsey Johnson (child care director and search coordinator)."
When did DP MO or Emma go to the beach? Does she mention the beach in her statement?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm she says:
"I returned to the location where the leaflets were being distributed and passed on the information that I had gathered about the missing girl. Lyndsey was busy with the distribution of the leaflets and I went to search in the beach area. On my return I passed by the Duke Pub where I met other members of staff who also joined in the searches."
That sounds like it happened within the early stages of the Missing Child Procedures.
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I appreciate your effort but obviously I'm going to have to ask you for a little assistance to understand your POV.
Tell me about that phone call from Gerry to Kate please?
After her arrival in Portugal on 28th April 2007, with the exception of one incoming call on Wednesday 2nd May 2007 at 11.21 (which, very interestingly, was the Swansea 'wrong number'), and one call from her husband at 23.17 on Thursday 3rd May 2007, everything else has been 'whoosh-clunked' from memory.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm
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After her arrival in Portugal on 28th April 2007, with the exception of one incoming call on Wednesday 2nd May 2007 at 11.21 (which, very interestingly, was the Swansea 'wrong number'), and one call from her husband at 23.17 on Thursday 3rd May 2007, everything else has been 'whoosh-clunked' from memory.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm
People do clear their Mobiles from time to time.
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People do clear their Mobiles from time to time.
...and the police get suspicious from time to time.
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...and the police get suspicious from time to time.
I would hope the police are suspicious all the time
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...and the police get suspicious from time to time.
Apparently not, in this case.
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People do clear their Mobiles from time to time.
I delete my incoming and outgoing messages as they get full. I never delete my incoming and outgoing call records as they don't get full.
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I delete my incoming and outgoing messages as they get full. I never delete my incoming and outgoing call records as they don't get full.
If I was sitting somewhere.... Anxiously waiting for news with time ticking by very slowly... Deleting cals and messages is something I might well do
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The two calls to Kate from Gerry are the final pieces of the time-line puzzle.
As noted above, these were at 23.14, duration 8 seconds, and 23.17, duration 31 seconds.
These I consider to be unturned stones. If it was known where Gerry was when he made these calls, and the gist of the content, there would be more certainty re end-points.
What useful communication could be imparted to Kate in that 8 second call, when she was waiting for news of what was going on?
Silvia's statement suggests that after she reached OC Reception, there was still an extended interaction between Gerry and the GNR. It was not a case of piling into the GNR car and driving off.
Whatever, Gerry was not at 5A at 23.14 and he was not at 5A at 23.17.
The drive time from the OCR to 5A is perhaps 1 to 2 minutes. If Gerry's 23.17 was made whilst travelling inside the GNR car, an ETA of 23.19 is possible. If Gerry made it a minute or two before everyone got into the GNR car, an ETA of 22.22 or 22.23 is feasible.
It cannot be nailed down more accurately than to about 23.20, and will stay that way unless Gerry opts to turn over a stone or two.
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The two calls from Kate to Gerry are the final pieces of the time-line puzzle.
OR
The two calls from Gerry to Kate are the final pieces of the time-line puzzle?
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If I was sitting somewhere.... Anxiously waiting for news with time ticking by very slowly... Deleting cals and messages is something I might well do
I certainly would clear up space for important messages if my message box was clogged up with unnecessary messages or trivia.
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I certainly would clear up space for important messages if my message box was clogged up with unnecessary messages or trivia.
Most sensible people would.
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I certainly would clear up space for important messages if my message box was clogged up with unnecessary messages or trivia.
But would you delete phone calls Brietta?
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But would you delete phone calls Brietta?
Is this the best evidence there is against the McCann's... Deleting phone calls
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Is this the best evidence there is against the McCann's... Deleting phone calls
Who said it was "the best evidence"? Only you Davel. It certainly raises questions if true though IMO.
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Who said it was "the best evidence"? Only you Davel. It certainly raises questions if true though IMO.
This is silly. Or do you think The McCanns discussed plans for disposing of their daughter on their Mobiles?
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This is silly. Or do you think The McCanns discussed plans for disposing of their daughter on their Mobiles?
I didn't even say it was important. All I asked was whether Brietta would have deleted her phone calls. You and other supporters seem very sensitive on this topic if I may say so.
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Who said it was "the best evidence"? Only you Davel. It certainly raises questions if true though IMO.
Which questions does it raise?
Can you give some examples?
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I didn't even say it was important. All I asked was whether Brietta would have deleted her phone calls. You and other supporters seem very sensitive on this topic if I may say so.
I'm not sensitive at all about this topic.
You seem to believe the deletion is significant.
Why?
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Which questions does it raise?
Can you give some examples?
Why did they delete the calls they did?
Why didn't they delete all the calls rather than selecting some for deletion?
There are two for starters Erngath.
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Why did they delete the calls they did?
Why didn't they delete all the calls rather than selecting some for deletion?
There are two for starters Erngath.
So you believe the deleted calls were evidence that they are involved in their child's disappearance?
Which ones were selected?
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So you believe the deleted calls were evidence that they are involved in their child's disappearance?
Which ones were selected?
So far no less than 3 supporters have asked me if the deleted calls were evidence in Madeleine's disappearance. I have said no such thing if you notice.
Perhaps you could ask Rob these same questions please as I am going out now.
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So far no less than 3 supporters have asked me if the deleted calls were evidence in Madeleine's disappearance. I have said no such thing if you notice.
Perhaps you could ask Rob these same questions please as I am going out now.
Possibly like me, just interested in what sceptics believe to be evidence against the McCanns.
Have a nice evening.
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Getting back on topic, are we now agreed that the GNR arrived at the OC at around 11,10 and at 5A at approximately 11.20?
The next person to arrive was the Commander of the Lagos GNR Post Antonio Henrique da Duarte Conceicao.
At about 23.10/23.17 he heard from a telephone call from the Patrol Commander, Officer Roque, that there had been a disappearance at the OC resort, P da L...........
He arrived alone, in his own car at about 23.50 and went to the apartment (to the entrance hall) by means of the front door (opposite the parking area) where he found the girl's parents, a couple and Silvia.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_DUARTE.htm
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Getting back on topic, are we now agreed that the GNR arrived at the OC at around 11,10 and at 5A at approximately 11.20?
... snip ...
I agree that it could be as late as 11:20 PM when the GNR get around to G5A but how did you or why did you go against what the GNR say about their own arrival time?
I think the issue around the telephone call from the UK Consulate would have really delayed the GNR. They would have a mission on their hands sorting that out at 11:00 PM at night. Was that issue thrown at them as soon as they arrived?
When did that happen? Has anyone discussed this issue before on the forum?
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Getting back on topic, are we now agreed that the GNR arrived at the OC at around 11,10 and at 5A at approximately 11.20?
The next person to arrive was the Commander of the Lagos GNR Post Antonio Henrique da Duarte Conceicao.
At about 23.10/23.17 he heard from a telephone call from the Patrol Commander, Officer Roque, that there had been a disappearance at the OC resort, P da L...........
He arrived alone, in his own car at about 23.50 and went to the apartment (to the entrance hall) by means of the front door (opposite the parking area) where he found the girl's parents, a couple and Silvia.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_DUARTE.htm
I reserve the right to haggle over arrival time at OC, but moving on to the rest of your post ...
If Duarte has got these timings right, something strange is going on.
There must have been a desk officer manning the phone at GNR Lagos. Why did he not inform Duarte? Was Duarte elsewhere?
If the phone call from Roque was in the period when Roque was at the OC then Roque must have gleaned enough to think it was time to make sure Duarte was in the loop. Apparently, he prioritised that over getting to 5A to look at the incident scene.
Presumably the phone call was mobile to mobile, so not in the records for GNR Lagos?
Duarte was hardly prompt in getting to the scene. If he was informed by 23.17, a trip to Luz by 23.50 suggests he started elsewhere than GNR Lagos.
And why take his own car? Wasn't he near a GNR car?
Notice it is still disappearance, not abduction.
The bottom line is that Roque escalated to Duarte, who responded by travelling to the incident scene.
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I reserve the right to haggle over arrival time at OC, but moving on to the rest of your post ...
If Duarte has got these timings right, something strange is going on.
There must have been a desk officer manning the phone at GNR Lagos. Why did he not inform Duarte? Was Duarte elsewhere?
If the phone call from Roque was in the period when Roque was at the OC then Roque must have gleaned enough to think it was time to make sure Duarte was in the loop. Apparently, he prioritised that over getting to 5A to look at the incident scene.
Presumably the phone call was mobile to mobile, so not in the records for GNR Lagos?
Duarte was hardly prompt in getting to the scene. If he was informed by 23.17, a trip to Luz by 23.50 suggests he started elsewhere than GNR Lagos.
And why take his own car? Wasn't he near a GNR car?
Notice it is still disappearance, not abduction.
The bottom line is that Roque escalated to Duarte, who responded by travelling to the incident scene.
I think you are very right about what you feel SIL.
"Own car" or "own GNR car" could be the same thing he might have a company car at his disposal that he ends up calling his own.
Roque could have got Duarte to sort out the issue as to what the GNR were allowed to do in this case now that a message was given to Roque that the PJ are handling the case, even though the PJ weren't on site.
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SIL "Notice it is still disappearance, not abduction."
I saw on another thread that the equivalent to an Amber Alert was issued several days later by Roque on the basis of the signs of abduction.
Missing girl not found.
Jane Tanner's sighting of a man carry a girl in pyjamas in the area.
Kate and Gerry's report that the window was open and the shutters up.
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I agree that it could be as late as 11:20 PM when the GNR get around to G5A but how did you or why did you go against what the GNR say about their own arrival time?
I think the issue around the telephone call from the UK Consulate would have really delayed the GNR. They would have a mission on their hands sorting that out at 11:00 PM at night. Was that issue thrown at them as soon as they arrived?
When did that happen? Has anyone discussed this issue before on the forum?
Where do you get the idea that the Consulate phoned at 11pm?
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Where do you get the idea that the Consulate phoned at 11pm?
Well 11:00 PM or even 12:00 AM, I'm meaning sorting it out that late at night.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
"He also refers to a situation when he was searching outside, near the pool, that someone from the OC whom he cannot identify, passed him a mobile phone, as a British Consulate employee who spoke in Portuguese, wanted to talk to the authorities. Upon speaking to him, he told him that the investigation and subsequent actions were under the responsibility of the PJ." If his recollection is correct and our timing is correct the phone call must have been after 11:20 PM for he is over at the Tapas area.
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From Time line study http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9185.msg448018#msg448018
Time Line Study by Kazlux: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
on the morning of the 4th May 2007:
"0.29.37 am Angela Morado at UK Consulate calls Gerry (4.53 minutes)" Well someone has to ring the UK Consulate with Gerry's phone number first before that can happen.
I was surprised to see my old post still there on the forum! http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7468.msg350349#msg350349
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Well 11:00 PM or even 12:00 AM, I'm meaning sorting it out that late at night.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
"He also refers to a situation when he was searching outside, near the pool, that someone from the OC whom he cannot identify, passed him a mobile phone, as a British Consulate employee who spoke in Portuguese, wanted to talk to the authorities. Upon speaking to him, he told him that the investigation and subsequent actions were under the responsibility of the PJ." If his recollection is correct and our timing is correct the phone call must have been after 11:20 PM for he is over at the Tapas area.
He leaves PdL at 2.30am too;
At about 02.30 after having been replaced by two colleagues, he left the scene as the police had already arrived.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
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He leaves PdL at 2.30am too;
At about 02.30 after having been replaced by two colleagues, he left the scene as the police had already arrived.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
Duarte was in charge by then. It would have been normal practice IMO for Roque to get permission to leave when he did. There was enough GNR there at the time I suppose, even though I argue that the GNR failed to put enough staff there to do vehicle checks.
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SIL "Notice it is still disappearance, not abduction."
I saw on another thread that the equivalent to an Amber Alert was issued several days later by Roque on the basis of the signs of abduction.
Missing girl not found.
Jane Tanner's sighting of a man carry a girl in pyjamas in the area.
Kate and Gerry's report that the window was open and the shutters up.
I think two issues here are very important.
1 no mention of abduction even at this time!
2 Kate and Gery mention shutters and windows - who else saw this? if no one esles saw this then who closed them and why if it was to be considered a 'crime' scene.
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Duarte was in charge by then. It would have been normal practice IMO for Roque to get permission to leave when he did. There was enough GNR there at the time I suppose, even though I argue that the GNR failed to put enough staff there to do vehicle checks.
The Consulate were involved from half past midnight;
0.29.37 am Angela Morado at UK Consulate calls Gerry (4.53 minutes)
0.47.41 am Angela Morado at UK Consulate calls Gerry (2.15 minutes)
1.16.11 am Gerry calls A. M. UK Consulate(1.57 minutes)
7.15.19 am Gerry calls Angela Morado UK Consulate (4.51 minutes)
8.35.15 am Gerry calls Angela Morado, UK consulate (1.43 minutes)
8.50.27 am Gerry calls Angela Morado, UK consulate (4.47 minutes)
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I think two issues here are very important.
1 no mention of abduction even at this time!
2 Kate and Gerry mention shutters and windows - who else saw this? if no one else's saw this then who closed them and why if it was to be considered a 'crime' scene.
Are you married or have you ever been married?
Gerry and Kate were supposedly married, so it was Kate who saw it as a crime scene but her husband didn't think so, it was her husband who closed the window and it was her husband who lowered the shutters and then went around the outside and her husband found they could be lifted from the outside.
Gerry obviously misread the situation and stuffed it up IMO. OK he can make up excuses about the draughts on the children sleeping in the cots etc. but he is only human.
Amy Tierney saw the window open and the shutters raised, and I don't think GNR Officer Roque ever had a chance to talk to her that night.
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The Consulate were involved from half past midnight;
0.29.37 am Angela Morado at UK Consulate calls Gerry (4.53 minutes)
0.47.41 am Angela Morado at UK Consulate calls Gerry (2.15 minutes)
1.16.11 am Gerry calls A. M. UK Consulate(1.57 minutes)
7.15.19 am Gerry calls Angela Morado UK Consulate (4.51 minutes)
8.35.15 am Gerry calls Angela Morado, UK consulate (1.43 minutes)
8.50.27 am Gerry calls Angela Morado, UK consulate (4.47 minutes)
Well obviously they are involved before that too. Someone must have told the Consulate before "0.29.37 am" as Angela wouldn't just ring Gerry without reason!
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Well obviously they are involved before that too. Someone must have told the Consulate before "0.29.37 am" as Angela wouldn't just ring Gerry without reason!
His sister Patricia and Kate's uncle Brian Kennedy were phoning the FCO, the Embassy and the Consulate. No doubt they gave his number out.
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His sister Patricia and Kate's uncle Brian Kennedy were phoning the FCO, the Embassy and the Consulate. No doubt they gave his number out.
What is the FCO again? Foreign & Commonwealth Office - GOV.UK
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Are you married or have you ever been married?
Gerry and Kate were supposedly married, so it was Kate who saw it as a crime scene but her husband didn't think so, it was her husband who closed the window and it was her husband who lowered the shutters and then went around the outside and her husband found they could be lifted from the outside.
Gerry obviously misread the situation and stuffed it up IMO. OK he can make up excuses about the draughts on the children sleeping in the cots etc. but he is only human.
Amy Tierney saw the window open and the shutters raised, and I don't think GNR Officer Roque ever had a chance to talk to her that night.
But Roque must have been sufficiently convinced it could be an abduction he issued the "yellow alert" as someone called it, or is it a "Yellow Notice".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELINE.htm from the alphabetical list "MADELEINE PASSPORT & DISAPPEARANCE INFO"
"From the GNR
Brigade n? 3
Portimao
NUIPC 201/07 GALGS
REPORT OF NEWS OF DISAPPEARANCE
Responsible Officer: Jos?Mar? Batista Roque
Person denouncing: McCann Gerald Patrick
Passport n?
Residence: Orchard House
Disappeared Person
Name: Madeleine Beth McCann
Feminine sex, white. Date of birth: 12-05-2003
Height about 0.90 mt. Colour of eyes, blue left eye, greenish right eye with brown.
Blond hair with chestnut tips touching the shoulders.
Daughter of Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Healy.
Single, BC N? issued on 04-08-2003.
Resident of Leicester. UK.
Residence: Orchard House and temporarily since 28th April, in apartment 5 A, Ocean Club, Rua Agostinho da Silva, Praia da Luz.
Tel:
Profession:
Place of work:
Individual markings: small chestnut birthmark on left leg.
Date of disappearance: 03-05-2007 between 21.30 and 22.00.
Probable causes: from apartment 5 A, Ocean Club Rua Agostinho da Silva, Praia da Luz.when she was sleeping in one of the bedrooms whose window faced the parking area of the respective block together with her two year old twin siblings. The possibility of abduction was raised by the parents, given that Jane Tanner, a temporary resident of apartment D5, Ocean Club, Rua Agostinho da Silva would have seen an individual aged between 30 and 40, about 1.78 m in height, with dark hair, wearing light coloured trousers and a dark shirt, who was carrying a child who appeared to her to be wearing pyjamas and also because of the fact that the shutters of the bedroom in question were raised and the window open. The Portimao PJ were contacted, two inspectors arrived at the scene and proceeded to make inspections.
OBSERVATIONS
(Collect characteristics of personal objects namely watches, rings, false teeth, etc).
On the left leg she has a small chestnut birthmark, she was wearing light coloured pyjamas (top and bottom), with a pink donkey design on the bottoms with the letters ON and she was barefoot.
Signed in Lagos
4th May 2007
01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_29"
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&%%6
But Roque must have been sufficiently convinced it could be an abduction he issued the "yellow alert" as someone called it, or is it a "Yellow Notice".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELINE.htm from the alphabetical list "MADELEINE PASSPORT & DISAPPEARANCE INFO"
"From the GNR
Brigade n? 3
Portimao
NUIPC 201/07 GALGS
REPORT OF NEWS OF DISAPPEARANCE
Responsible Officer: Jos?Mar? Batista Roque
Person denouncing: McCann Gerald Patrick
Passport n?
Residence: Orchard House
Disappeared Person
Name: Madeleine Beth McCann
Feminine sex, white. Date of birth: 12-05-2003
Height about 0.90 mt. Colour of eyes, blue left eye, greenish right eye with brown.
Blond hair with chestnut tips touching the shoulders.
Daughter of Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Healy.
Single, BC N? issued on 04-08-2003.
Resident of Leicester. UK.
Residence: Orchard House and temporarily since 28th April, in apartment 5 A, Ocean Club, Rua Agostinho da Silva, Praia da Luz.
Tel:
Profession:
Place of work:
Individual markings: small chestnut birthmark on left leg.
Date of disappearance: 03-05-2007 between 21.30 and 22.00.
Probable causes: from apartment 5 A, Ocean Club Rua Agostinho da Silva, Praia da Luz.when she was sleeping in one of the bedrooms whose window faced the parking area of the respective block together with her two year old twin siblings. The possibility of abduction was raised by the parents, given that Jane Tanner, a temporary resident of apartment D5, Ocean Club, Rua Agostinho da Silva would have seen an individual aged between 30 and 40, about 1.78 m in height, with dark hair, wearing light coloured trousers and a dark shirt, who was carrying a child who appeared to her to be wearing pyjamas and also because of the fact that the shutters of the bedroom in question were raised and the window open. The Portimao PJ were contacted, two inspectors arrived at the scene and proceeded to make inspections.
OBSERVATIONS
(Collect characteristics of personal objects namely watches, rings, false teeth, etc).
On the left leg she has a small chestnut birthmark, she was wearing light coloured pyjamas (top and bottom), with a pink donkey design on the bottoms with the letters ON and she was barefoot.
Signed in Lagos
4th May 2007
01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_29"
Amaral asked for the yellow alert, not Roque.
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&%%6
Amaral asked for the yellow alert, not Roque.
Could well be, but the "REPORT OF NEWS OF DISAPPEARANCE" is signed off by Roque the GNR Officer.
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Could well be, but the "REPORT OF NEWS OF DISAPPEARANCE" is signed off by Roque the GNR Officer.
As the first one at the scene he quite properly produced a report of what he heard and saw. The report was passed to the PJ.
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But Roque must have been sufficiently convinced it could be an abduction he issued the "yellow alert" as someone called it, or is it a "Yellow Notice".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELINE.htm from the alphabetical list "MADELEINE PASSPORT & DISAPPEARANCE INFO"
"From the GNR
Brigade n? 3
Portimao
NUIPC 201/07 GALGS
REPORT OF NEWS OF DISAPPEARANCE
Responsible Officer: Jos?Mar? Batista Roque
Person denouncing: McCann Gerald Patrick
Passport n?
Residence: Orchard House
Disappeared Person
Name: Madeleine Beth McCann
Feminine sex, white. Date of birth: 12-05-2003
Height about 0.90 mt. Colour of eyes, blue left eye, greenish right eye with brown.
Blond hair with chestnut tips touching the shoulders.
Daughter of Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Healy.
Single, BC N? issued on 04-08-2003.
Resident of Leicester. UK.
Residence: Orchard House and temporarily since 28th April, in apartment 5 A, Ocean Club, Rua Agostinho da Silva, Praia da Luz.
Tel:
Profession:
Place of work:
Individual markings: small chestnut birthmark on left leg.
Date of disappearance: 03-05-2007 between 21.30 and 22.00.
Probable causes: from apartment 5 A, Ocean Club Rua Agostinho da Silva, Praia da Luz.when she was sleeping in one of the bedrooms whose window faced the parking area of the respective block together with her two year old twin siblings. The possibility of abduction was raised by the parents, given that Jane Tanner, a temporary resident of apartment D5, Ocean Club, Rua Agostinho da Silva would have seen an individual aged between 30 and 40, about 1.78 m in height, with dark hair, wearing light coloured trousers and a dark shirt, who was carrying a child who appeared to her to be wearing pyjamas and also because of the fact that the shutters of the bedroom in question were raised and the window open. The Portimao PJ were contacted, two inspectors arrived at the scene and proceeded to make inspections.
OBSERVATIONS
(Collect characteristics of personal objects namely watches, rings, false teeth, etc).
On the left leg she has a small chestnut birthmark, she was wearing light coloured pyjamas (top and bottom), with a pink donkey design on the bottoms with the letters ON and she was barefoot.
Signed in Lagos
4th May 2007
01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_29"
So her height was estimated as about 90cm in the period that Roque was with Kate and/or Gerry, pre-dating their 4th May statements.
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&%%6
Amaral asked for the yellow alert, not Roque.
The request to Interpol is dated 8th May 2007 ... I have already asked Slarti on this thread how many borders could Madeleine have been taken over in that timescale?
Maybe you could provide the answer since you mention the yellow alert again.
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The request to Interpol is dated 8th May 2007 ... I have already asked Slarti on this thread how many borders could Madeleine have been taken over in that timescale?
Maybe you could provide the answer since you mention the yellow alert again.
In 5 days one could fly around the Earth using commercial flights.
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The request to Interpol is dated 8th May 2007 ... I have already asked Slarti on this thread how many borders could Madeleine have been taken over in that timescale?
Maybe you could provide the answer since you mention the yellow alert again.
No idea, and off topic imo.
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Back on topic again then please. Is everyone happy that it was Matt in the GNR car along with Gerry and Silvia even though Matt fails to mention his own presence in the car.
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Back on topic again then please. Is everyone happy that it was Matt in the GNR car along with Gerry and Silvia even though Matt fails to mention his own presence in the car.
I agree that Matt was at Main Reception with Gerry when the GNR arrived, although he's very vague as to how he came to be there, isn't he? Silvia says all three of them were taken to 5A in the GNR car.
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I agree that Matt was at Main Reception with Gerry when the GNR arrived, although he's very vague as to how he came to be there, isn't he? Silvia says all three of them were taken to 5A in the GNR car.
And so do the GNR officers.
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Can you recall who that might have been Sadie? In her book Kate raves on about how helpful Silvia was. No doubt she helped, but Kate and Gerry really needed the GNR to accept the "Madeleine was abducted" theory. I see one part of the GNR team stopped a caravan and searched it. I wonder how much more effective the GNR could have been if the officers without dogs or even all of them searched vehicles leaving PdL. I think the dogs could be really useful to sniff out any hidden compartment in a vehicle containing a girl.
Soz Rob, it was in private conversation. I am not at liberty to reveal who it was.
I agree about the dogs .
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Was there something happening prior to Kate's alarm being raised?
Read Robin Crossland: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBIN_CROSSLAND-1.htm
Helder Luis: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
VITOR SANTOS HOUSING MANAGER: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR-SANTOS.htm
Arlindo Pelega: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm
And work out how they all can be wrong? If they are not wrong what was really going on?
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If the alarm was raised by the father before 10:00 and the father hadn't told the mother.
Helder Luis:
"He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared."
So that was a staff member, who either worked at the Tapas or elsewhere but was there prior to 10:00 PM. It was a male staff. Probably Portuguese speaking.
No name of the person who contacted him, nor his position, nor the exact time.
Helder Luis:
"That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child's father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
He then contacted the head of reception Vitor Santos and informed him of the situation."
No names of the girl's father (other than John Hill, and Vitor Santos). So clearly the phone calls were prior to ringing Santos.
So when does Vitor Santos say he was rung?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR-SANTOS.htm
"With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
Given the circumstances, the witness thought it best to go to the resort to find out more about the situation.
When he arrived at the scene about 10 to 15 minutes later, he immediately went to the reception where the GNR were present, taking a statement from the girl's father.
The witness then went to the apartment where there was an agglomeration of persons, however he managed to perceive that the apartment did not show any sign of disturbance not that anyone had attempted to break in.
He adds that he heard it said at the scene that the mother had not left the shutter open as she always closed the shutter when she left. When asked, he says that he did not notice anything strange in relation to the apartment or its surroundings."
Did Gerry ever give a statement over at the reception? Was Silvia Batista present? "When he arrived at the scene about 10 to 15 minutes later, he immediately went to the reception where the GNR were present, taking a statement from the girl's father."
Who told Vitor Santos that a girl was missing from 5A? We assume he is talking about 5A.
I wonder why the PJ taking the statement don't make some attempt to make the statement absolutely clear.
Was it OC policy to immediately call the GNR?
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Robin Crossland who is the most precise with his times says this:
"That at around 22h15 of 03 May 2007, he was alone in his residence, situated in Lagos, and was contacted by John Hill, Mark Warner manager who works in the Ocean Club establishment and who informed him that a child, a minor, of the feminine sex, who was staying with her family in that resort, had disappeared and that he was going to initiate the 'procedure for missing child' (sic);
. The deponent left toward the local where he arrived at 22H25 and there found John Hill and other functionaries, Silvia Batista, Joao Batista, the former who is employee manager and the latter maintenance;
. That when he arrived at the Ocean Club, he went to the entry of the pool and the restaurant (Tapas) areas of said establishment, having there come across various individuals in the local, all of which were participating in the search for the lost child, and was made up of guests and other people;. That at around 22H50, local elements of the GNR arrived and took charge of the occurrence, and began to manage and lead the search operations of the child missing in the area;"
Only issue I have is that John Hill says he didn't know about the case till 22.28. "Statements show that he knew of these facts by means of a phone call from Lindsay, head of the child care service, who told him about a female child staying at the resort who had disappeared. This phone call was made to the deponent's mobile phone at about 22.28 on 03-05-2007. About 5 minutes later the deponent presented himself at the resort,"
Why does he say 22.28 when others are saying he rang Robin at 22.15?
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Why have Interpol in the thread title?
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Why have Interpol in the thread title?
Richard D Hall had an email asking why Interpol had been there before the GNR had arrived.
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Richard D Hall had an email asking why Interpol had been there before the GNR had arrived.
Who sent the email?
As Interpol donot have agents it seems unlikely.
There are no Interpol agents. Interpol is an international association of governments with the mission of assisting and coordinating law enforcement efforts among its members. It has no police powers itself. Each member country designates a point of contact, a liaison to the other members.
"Agents of Interpol" have been a media theme for many years, but they're a media invention. There are no Interpol agents.
Interpol is an international association of governments with the mission of assisting and coordinating law enforcement efforts among its members. It has no police powers itself.
The Interpol bit has been flogged to death on this forum previously.
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Who sent the email?
As Interpol donot have agents it seems unlikely.
There are no Interpol agents. Interpol is an international association of governments with the mission of assisting and coordinating law enforcement efforts among its members. It has no police powers itself. Each member country designates a point of contact, a liaison to the other members.
"Agents of Interpol" have been a media theme for many years, but they're a media invention. There are no Interpol agents.
Interpol is an international association of governments with the mission of assisting and coordinating law enforcement efforts among its members. It has no police powers itself.
The Interpol bit has been flogged to death on this forum previously.
You could ask Richard D. Hall who wrote the email. It might not have been Interpol either because the idea being simply is that some other organisation other than their own had attended to an earlier incident. What other options do we have? Could it have been something like another countries secret service agents. Amaral was tending to blame MI5, others have suggested the Israeli Secret Service.
Something big was was happening to have the agents on hand then.
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In the file the GNR are delayed by an incident in Odiaxere. Strangely enough Amaral in one of his interviews belittles them and just says "road works" he does not say "Odiaxere" which I found strange but typical of GA.
da Santos says: "With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR."
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You could ask Richard D. Hall who wrote the email. It might not have been Interpol either because the idea being simply is that some other organisation other than their own had attended to an earlier incident. What other options do we have? Could it have been something like another countries secret service agents. Amaral was tending to blame MI5, others have suggested the Israeli Secret Service.
Something big was was happening to have the agents on hand then.
Which agents?
Will Dick get there before Matt arrives back at the table, will Snowy rescue Jock from the swimming pool.......
Tune in tomorrow same time same place on the dial.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2eqX93umXo
Oh do give over!
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Which agents?
Will Dick get there before Matt arrives back at the table, will Snowy rescue Jock from the swimming pool.......
Tune in tomorrow same time same place on the dial.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2eqX93umXo
Oh do give over!
These things do happen in real life. There are agents, countries are at war, and events happen that we will never know about. Amaral might be wrong in some detail but not entirely wrong.
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In the file the GNR are delayed by an incident in Odiaxere. Strangely enough Amaral in one of his interviews belittles them and just says "road works" he does not say "Odiaxere" which I found strange but typical of GA.
da Santos says: "With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR."
Did I read somewhere that the call to a burglary in Odiaxere was a hoax? Or have I imagined that?
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Did I read somewhere that the call to a burglary in Odiaxere was a hoax? Or have I imagined that?
Quite possible. Amaral never mentions it himself. I heard him put the delay in attending the incident in PdL down to "road works" that was in one of his video interviews (that must have been a translation too, for I can't understand Portuguese).
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I believe someone knew about the incident early enough to ring John Hill so that John Hill was able to ring Robin Crossland by 22.15.
Who rang John Hill? Was it Amy Tierney or Lyndsay Johnson? How did he know, that it was necessary to call the GNR in the first place?
By the time the GNR do arrive circumstances could have totally changed.
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What is rather surprising is that the very earliest report of a disturbance at the Tapas is not long after the time that Jane sees the man carrying the child recorded in the notes by Vitor Martins.
The earliest report is from Arlindo Pelega and he was over at Tapas.
Was it his phone call that Helder Luis refers to?
If Jane's sighting coincided with another incident prior to the alert by Kate, there could be a situation where the man carrying the child is someone who has found a child and going to a phone to report it to OC management.
It then become possible that practically the same time as the child is discovered missing (the incident that Arlindo reports) the child is found either dead or alive, a message is made to management, and they alert the staff, at least.
Arlindo's statement is one of the most difficult to relate it to the McCann case if the Kate McCann's alert was at 10:00 PM as GA insisted.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm
" A few minutes later, when it was around 21H20, he heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared. "
compare that to what Gerry reports to the GNR or the PJ on the night of the 3rd. or morning of the 4th. in Vitor Martins' notes.
"At about 21.20, their friend Jane passed by the apartment (along the corridor of the main entrance) she saw an individual carrying a child who passed descending the road, however she did not recognise this individual, nor the child, only having noticed that the individual appeared to be aged between 30 or 40, had dark hair and light coloured trousers."
Now these two events are relatively close spatially (within 100 meters) and occurring in the same time (21.20). The moment someone is saying a child is missing Jane is seeing a man carrying a child.
It is not possible for that alarm raised at 9:20 being the same alert as Kate's alert and the Tapas 9 have still to get Gerry and Jane back to the table, for them to eat their mains for Russell and Matt to check their kids and for them to return as well.
It is impossible IMO that Arlindo is remembering Kate's alert In fact he might have left the Tapas area before Kate's alert.
It certainly would be impossible for Jane to return to a table where the people are aware a child is missing and not report immediately what she had seen just moments before.
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10184.msg494004#msg494004 is one of my most important posts from the years of study into this case. What does Arlindo do when he leaves the Tapas area to go back to his own restaurant? Did he shut the reception door stopping anyone entering without their access card?
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10184.msg494004#msg494004 is one of my most important posts from the years of study into this case. What does Arlindo do when he leaves the Tapas area to go back to his own restaurant? Did he shut the reception door stopping anyone entering without their access card?
You would like to think a different child was missing that night. You will need to take account of this then;
Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home....... My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
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You would like to think a different child was missing that night. You will need to take account of this then;
Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home....... My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
"You would like to think a different child was missing that night." Yes but I'm also saying this child was found almost immediately so no missing child procedures needed to be activated. It is possible this child died and that is why the "police" still needed to be called.
"Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home....... My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment."
Can you think how someone could be looking for Madeleine even before Kate has gone to check the apartment?
I have already explained that actually.
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"You would like to think a different child was missing that night." Yes but I'm also saying this child was found almost immediately so no missing child procedures needed to be activated. It is possible this child died and that is why the "police" still needed to be called.
"Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home....... My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment."
Can you think how someone could be looking for Madeleine even before Kate has gone to check the apartment?
I have already explained that actually.
In England if a child dies the first call is to the Ambulance service. They bring in the Police when they realise life is truly extinct.
The evidence of these people all points to Madeleine being missed before 10 pm, not to a fictitious child having died.
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In England if a child dies the first call is to the Ambulance service. They bring in the Police when they realise life is truly extinct.
The evidence of these people all points to Madeleine being missed before 10 pm, not to a fictitious child having died.
OK but what would a family do if it happened while on holiday in Portugal. I would think they might want to transport the body home. Cut the holiday short could also be on the cards, possible, do you agree?
You say: "The evidence of these people all points to Madeleine being missed before 10 pm... "
If all these people had mentioned Madeleine or the McCann family by name I might agree with you but the majority hide behind nameless words like child, father , family, client. etc.
Stephen Carpenter is the odd one out he actually mentions "Madeleine" by name in an incident that happens before 22.00. One out of the many. Definitely not "all".
"not to a fictitious child having died" What I'm suggesting surely wouldn't be the only time a child has died while at a holiday resort, surely. No doubt plenty of procedures are put into the prevention of such happenings.
But it became clear to me that the procedure of throwing the laundry down the hole in the staircases was dangerous and yet it was not mentioned in any of the statements by the cleaners or laundry workers until 6 years had passed and SY was preparing to interview OC drivers and that prompted Mario to come forward and he described the method of collecting the laundry.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/488488/Former-Ocean-Club-driver-is-suspect-in-McCann-case
Those who do statement analysis would suggest that that might be a clue. Even if it wasn't a clue it certainly seemed dangerous when there could be little kids around.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIO_MARREIROS.htm
"British boy, five, drowns on holiday in Portugal" https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/29/british-boy-five-drowns-on-holiday-in-portugal
Does it hint at the procedure for calling the police?
Involvement of the Foreign Office "A spokesman for the Foreign Office said: “We are providing support for the family of a British child who has died in Portugal.”
"Family holidays end in tragedy as two children drown in pools" https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/995991/family-holiday-tragedy-pool-drowning-child-death
"Child “sucked into pool filter” on last day of holiday dies in hospital"
"A post-mortem examination has yet to take place but police sources said everything is pointing to the girl’s death being the result of a tragic accident."
http://portugalresident.com/child-%E2%80%9Csucked-into-pool-filter%E2%80%9D-on-last-day-of-holiday-dies-in-hospital
This report does have a lot of graphic detail that surprises me.
"Toddler son of British couple falls to his death from Portugal apartment"
"One source said it was believed the child had died in a tragic accident – possibly while the youngster’s parents were still sleeping – but the investigation was ongoing." https://metro.co.uk/2018/05/06/toddler-son-british-couple-falls-death-portugal-apartment-7525557/
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OK but what would a family do if it happened while on holiday in Portugal. I would think they might want to transport the body home. Cut the holiday short could also be on the cards, possible, do you agree?
You say: "The evidence of these people all points to Madeleine being missed before 10 pm... "
If all these people had mentioned Madeleine or the McCann family by name I might agree with you but the majority hide behind nameless words like child, father , family, client. etc.
Stephen Carpenter is the odd one out he actually mentions "Madeleine" by name in an incident that happens before 22.00. One out of the many. Definitely not "all".
"not to a fictitious child having died" What I'm suggesting surely wouldn't be the only time a child has died while at a holiday resort, surely. No doubt plenty of procedures are put into the prevention of such happenings.
But it became clear to me that the procedure of throwing the laundry down the hole in the staircases was dangerous and yet it was not mentioned in any of the statements by the cleaners or laundry workers until 6 years had passed and SY was preparing to interview OC drivers and that prompted Mario to come forward and he described the method of collecting the laundry.
Those who do statement analysis would suggest that that might be a clue. Even if it wasn't a clue it certainly seemed dangerous when there could be little kids around.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIO_MARREIROS.htm
There are laws covering unexpected deaths. You can't just take a dead body from country to country no matter what you want to do.
Bringing the body home
To bring the body home you must:
get a certified English translation of the death certificate
get permission to remove the body, issued by a coroner (or equivalent) in the country where the person died
https://www.gov.uk/after-a-death/death-abroad
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There are laws covering unexpected deaths. You can't just take a dead body from country to country no matter what you want to do.
Bringing the body home
To bring the body home you must:
get a certified English translation of the death certificate
get permission to remove the body, issued by a coroner (or equivalent) in the country where the person died
https://www.gov.uk/after-a-death/death-abroad
Fair enough but that doesn't have to be done the same night does it. What would need to be done first? Would it be keep the body cold?
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Fair enough but that doesn't have to be done the same night does it. What would need to be done first? Would it be keep the body cold?
You don't just pick up a body and wander off with it in search of a fridge, that's for sure. Not in European countries anyway.
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You don't just pick up a body and wander off with it in search of a fridge, that's for sure. Not in European countries anyway.
In my opinion:
I'm not saying that either but here's how it could have happened. I would say there was an accidental death, the child was taken to a doctor who pronounced the child dead. Police were called and were satisfied it was an accident. The body was stored in a chiller until the holiday was over. A death certificate etc was going to be sort the next day.
The Police knew about the death, and tried to keep it out of the McCann file but odd bits crept in. There need not have been any connection to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
But were there connections?
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In my opinion:
I'm not saying that either but here's how it could have happened. I would say there was an accidental death, the child was taken to a doctor who pronounced the child dead. Police were called and were satisfied it was an accident. The body was stored in a chiller until the holiday was over. A death certificate etc was going to be sort the next day.
The Police knew about the death, and tried to keep it out of the McCann file but odd bits crept in. There need not have been any connection to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
But were there connections?
I see you have a pair of these fantasy spectacles as well.
Are they now standard issue?
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In my opinion:
I'm not saying that either but here's how it could have happened. I would say there was an accidental death, the child was taken to a doctor who pronounced the child dead. Police were called and were satisfied it was an accident. The body was stored in a chiller until the holiday was over. A death certificate etc was going to be sort the next day.
The Police knew about the death, and tried to keep it out of the McCann file but odd bits crept in. There need not have been any connection to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
But were there connections?
I'm sorry, but that's just plain daft. Accidental or unexpected deaths involve investigations and inquests before a death certificate is issued. Until the death certificate is issued the body is stored by a hospital or an undertaker. Suggesting that the bereaved carried on with their holiday is truly bizarre imo.
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Fair enough but that doesn't have to be done the same night does it. What would need to be done first? Would it be keep the body cold?
A local undertaker would be called to remove the body for storage if not removed by ambulance to the Hospital Mortuary. Transport would then be arranged.
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I'm sorry, but that's just plain daft. Accidental or unexpected deaths involve investigations and inquests before a death certificate is issued. Until the death certificate is issued the body is stored by a hospital or an undertaker. Suggesting that the bereaved carried on with their holiday is truly bizarre imo.
The PJ talk about Silvia giving them a list of the people who left that day. Is that just the arrivals list? I'd have no idea when someone actually left. Do you?
What is there to investigate if a child is found under a pile of laundry that is thrown down the stairwell? It would be obvious, OK it is now moved in my scenario.
A local undertaker would be called to remove the body for storage if not removed by ambulance to the Hospital Mortuary. Transport would then be arranged.
Could that be done the next morning?
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Why not?
Portugal is a relative warm country and I'm sure that they wouldn't want bodies hanging around for long before being put into cold storage.
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The PJ talk about Silvia giving them a list of the people who left that day. Is that just the arrivals list? I'd have no idea when someone actually left. Do you?
What is there to investigate if a child is found under a pile of laundry that is thrown down the stairwell? It would be obvious, OK it is now moved in my scenario.
Could that be done the next morning?
What is there to investigate?
1. Why was laundry being thrown down a stairwell.
2. Who threw it.
3. What safety measures were in place.
4. When was the child missed?
5. When was she found?
6. How did she die?
No, you can't hang onto a body which, in the scenario you describe, would be evidence. The authorities would need to decide if it was indeed laundry which caused the death.
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Why not?
Portugal is a relative warm country and I'm sure that they wouldn't want bodies hanging around for long before being put into cold storage.
Ocean Club may already have a spot (chest freezer) to put bodies in case of natural death amongst their elderly clients. Who knows?
I'm going to check up what happens in NZ for I had a feeling lying in state at home for a couple of days is one of the customs.
https://teara.govt.nz/en/tangihanga-death-customs/page-1
"Tangihanga ceremony
For the tangihanga ceremony the body is usually prepared by an undertaker and displayed in an open coffin. A tangi often takes three days and is held on a marae, but with the increase of urbanisation it can be held in a hall or a private home."
The body can remain in a private home for up to 3 days in an open "coffin" or lying on the floor as I have seen.
With the family gathering around the deceased.
"The body is welcomed onto the marae with the whānau pani (the bereaved). Over the course of the tangihanga visitors are welcomed onto the marae and traditional speeches, songs and chants are exchanged"
https://youtu.be/nWRs4_bdfQA this one is very authentic.
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What is there to investigate?
1. Why was laundry being thrown down a stairwell.
2. Who threw it.
3. What safety measures were in place.
4. When was the child missed?
5. When was she found?
6. How did she die?
No, you can't hang onto a body which, in the scenario you describe, would be evidence. The authorities would need to decide if it was indeed laundry which caused the death.
It would depend in which of the blocks the death occurred but I previously suggested block 4.
"1. Why was laundry being thrown down a stairwell." No other way of getting the laundry down the stairs"
"2. Who threw it." One of the cleaners in that block.
:3. What safety measures were in place." You would have to ask them but I've been told it is customary in one enterprise just to yell out "Heads".
"4. When was the child missed?" Maybe they were doing the same as the McCanns or did they have a child monitor?
"5. When was she found? "I suggested she was found by the laundry man when he was picking up the laundry that evening."
"6. How did she die?" I'd call it "Accidental asphyxiation" Any doctor could tell that was the case???? History and location consistent with the story being told.
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Some years ago there was a post that had the term "accidental asphyxiation" in it (but now on "Search" that post is no longer there (i.e not coming up on search).
It still appears in a quote of my post but the original post is also gone. I used that term because I had seen the term being used in another post (recall the poster as well).
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7503.msg358312#msg358312
All from memory of course.
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Some years ago there was a post that had the term "accidental asphyxiation" in it (but now on "Search" that post is no longer there (i.e not coming up on search).
It still appears in a quote of my post but the original post is also gone. I used that term because I had seen the term being used in another post (recall the poster as well).
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7503.msg358312#msg358312
All from memory of course.
Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. / Re: Wandering Off Topic
« on: May 28, 2016, 11:22:00 PM »
Quote from: Alice Purjorick on May 28, 2016, 10:25:20 PM
Get a good fire going and death can be by asphyxiation due to the fire using all the O2.
The rest was from other poster:
Yes fire can cause asphyxiation but there are far commoner causes for example accidental strangulation, object inhalation, liquid inhalation.
So my memory was at fault, Alice had used the term asphyxiation and the other person "accidental strangulation" which is another term for "accidental asphyxiation".
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found the original now. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7060.msg335580#msg335580
and a reply http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7060.msg335580#msg335580
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It would depend in which of the blocks the death occurred but I previously suggested block 4.
"1. Why was laundry being thrown down a stairwell." No other way of getting the laundry down the stairs"
"2. Who threw it." One of the cleaners in that block.
:3. What safety measures were in place." You would have to ask them but I've been told it is customary in one enterprise just to yell out "Heads".
"4. When was the child missed?" Maybe they were doing the same as the McCanns or did they have a child monitor?
"5. When was she found? "I suggested she was found by the laundry man when he was picking up the laundry that evening."
"6. How did she die?" I'd call it "Accidental asphyxiation" Any doctor could tell that was the case???? History and location consistent with the story being told.
All very glib and completely wrong. If such a practice took place it was probably breaking Health and Safety laws. It was dangerous and careless and Mark Warmer would have been in trouble if they allowed it. If they didn't allow it them those doing it would have been in trouble.
'Any doctor' can't decide on the cause of death and issue a death certificate. In case of unexpected deaths the coroner does those things.
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All very glib and completely wrong. If such a practice took place it was probably breaking Health and Safety laws. It was dangerous and careless and Mark Warmer would have been in trouble if they allowed it. If they didn't allow it them those doing it would have been in trouble.
'Any doctor' can't decide on the cause of death and issue a death certificate. In case of unexpected deaths the coroner does those things.
It was one of the workers who described how the cleaners threw the laundry down the stairs. Oh yes I do agree it was dangerous, but if the building didn't have laundry chutes what else could they do?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/madeleine-mccann-witness-saw-weird-1918572 Mario describes how it was done.
"It was 7.30pm to 8pm. When cleaners cleared sheets they dropped them down the hole in the stairs to be collected by me at the bottom."
You say: "Any doctor' can't decide on the cause of death and issue a death certificate. In case of unexpected deaths the coroner does those things."
When my dad died the undertaker asked the family if we wanted a postmortem. I wanted to know why he died but the rest of the family seemed to over rule me. I still think someone murdered him, but we'll never know now. So it was just put down to natural causes but it was the family that generally agreed with the doctor and the police if they had arrived they accepted it too.
I think it would have to be driven by the family. If they felt they had been a bit slack in looking after their child they might just accept the verdict of accident and non-suspicious death and leave it at that.
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Could that be done the next morning?
Usually done after doctor has visited and confirmed death.
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Usually done after doctor has visited and confirmed death.
I have had little experience on what is usual. I know when Dad died they took him from where he died and laid him on a bed, I was able to get a reliever and drive there from another town and then hours passed before an undertaker came and went through this check list of details. That might have been after more than 6 hours had passed. His body was in full rigor mortis by this stage and I remember it was a struggle to get him onto the wheeled stretcher. I don't know if that is unusual or not.
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I have had little experience on what is usual. I know when Dad died they took him from where he died and laid him on a bed, I was able to get a reliever and drive there from another town and then hours passed before an undertaker came and went through this check list of details. That might have been after more than 6 hours had passed. His body was in full rigor mortis by this stage and I remember it was a struggle to get him onto the wheeled stretcher. I don't know if that is unusual or not.
There are expected deaths; someone who had cancer or heart disease for example. They're simple; the family doctor decides they have died as expected and issues a death certificate. The family call the undertakers and that's it.
The there are unexpected deaths like my neighbour. He didn't appear one day so we raised the alarm. It turned out he was dead and the ambulance was called. They don't take dead bodies, so the police were next. They record these bodies, look at the scene in case of foul play and take statements. Then the undertaker comes; often some hours later. The Coroner decided that the death was from natural causes and issued the death certificate in due course. His own doctor wasn't called out at all, although he was probably spoken to about my neighbour's health.
In the scenario you are describing the above would apply, but the death clearly wouldn't be from natural causes, it would be accidental death or even manslaughter. Much more police investigation, possibly an autopsy and definitely a Coroner involved.
In New Zealand, by the way, you call the person's doctor for an expected death, 111 for anything else.
https://www.govt.nz/browse/family-and-whanau/death-and-bereavement/what-you-need-to-do-when-someone-dies/
Hopefully you now realise that there are legal steps to be taken when a death occurs and failing to report a death, or interfering with a body is an offense. Interfering includes moving the body without the police seeing the scene.
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That article certainly gives plenty of options. One that caught my eye was the "If you're organising the funeral and burial yourself" section. I had no idea a family could organise their own burial. (That could happen in some back blocks of NZ where the Maori have their own cemeteries.)
What about this sentence? "Depending on how the person died, a doctor, nurse or coroner will examine the body and decide what happened." If someone is 86 just put it down to natural causes.
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That article certainly gives plenty of options. One that caught my eye was the "If you're organising the funeral and burial yourself" section. I had no idea a family could organise their own burial. (That could happen in some back blocks of NZ where the Maori have their own cemeteries.)
What about this sentence? "Depending on how the person died, a doctor, nurse or coroner will examine the body and decide what happened." If someone is 86 just put it down to natural causes.
Of course you can organise a burial or cremation, but not many want to. You''d have to buy a coffin, put the body in it, buy a plot and arrange for the grave to be dug or arrange for a part-filled one to be opened, arrange any religious services, hire appropriate transport, carry the coffin yourselves, lower it yourselves and so on. The undertakers do all that for you.
No matter what age a person is the death needs investigating and certifying. Old age doesn't always mean someone died from natural causes.