Who, when were Police called to OC? When did they arrive? incl GNR PJ & Interpol

[Robittybob1]

So, should the GNR do this every time a child wanders out of an unattended flat?

There was the case where a child was abducted from the bath,  so what do you have?  Someone carrying a naked child somewhere!  Sounds really planned. 
Can every case of child abduction be prevented by the parents?  With the coordination of parents and community it can be kept to a minimum.
Where within part of the community it is common place to have men carrying little kids dressed in pyjamas down the streets, especially in a holiday resort where people don't really know their neighbours - Houston we have a big problem.

On that one night we had two sightings of a man carrying a child on the streets within an hour.  And the community members thought it was probably a normal situation.

There must be a distance out from a night creche where it would be unusual for a man to be seen carrying a child at night so that normality does not extend out that far I presume.

If an abductor had a car and had sedated his victim and then drove off, he still needs a destination.
But that type of situation it would be impossible to contain the situation within a boundary for a car can always go further and faster than your ability to contain the driver.
So we would have to think someone really organised to kidnap a child by motor vehicle would be rather impossible to stop.  But then this type of abductor may get observed in the planning stages.

A vehicle accident, a type of hit and run situation where the body is picked up from the scene, no planning stages, and leaving little evidence, and driving off by car.  How are you going to prevent that especially if the driver is on his own?

I would say most situations are not fully planned out and they are the ones that could be caught by establishing a perimeter around the township.  If you can't stop vehicles, at least get CCTV (e.g. Dash cam recordings, list of number plates, of the vehicles entering and leaving the containment area).

[Robittybob1]

So, should the GNR do this every time a child wanders out of an unattended flat?

Not every time but if the parents and their friends have looked and they say the child has been taken - yes.

But there was a stage earlier than that. What should have been the right response from OC?  Should they have only called the GNR once the 20 minutes of unfruitful searching has been completed?  And remember that 20 minutes comes after the 10 minutes or so it took to gather enough staff to perform the missing child procedures.

And then you've got the response of the GNR to the phone calls - should they dropped what they were doing and come as fast as possible?

So even though Kate's immediate diagnosis was that Madeleine had been taken, her friends didn't think so.
I think Amy Tierney agreed with Kate in that it looked like she had been taken, but the OC still organised the missing child procedures (which are not designed to solve an abducted child).

When the GNR are finally rung there is no urgency until the second call and then the GNR speed up in getting there.

The GNR then were totally understaffed to contain a child abduction situation.

When the PJ finally turn up they don't see any signs of a break in and hence disbelieve Kate's plea that she's been taken and they walk away from the situation after a couple of hours. 

The GNR at least persist with their tracker dogs looking for a lost girl, but only make half hearted attempts at checking vehicles coming and going. Were there cars, trucks, vans on the roads?   They stop and search a single caravan.

What did Amy Tierney say about the findings she made?


"She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.

The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.

However there was a bed against the window, which could have enabled the girl to climb up onto it and then up to the window, the witness thinks it would not be possible as she would not be able to open the shutters and even if she had done so she would have fallen outside as the window is too high for a child of that age to be able to descend without falling."

these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.  Did Amy not say this to Lyndsay?

[slartibartfast]

Not every time but if the parents and their friends have looked and they say the child has been taken - yes.

But there was a stage earlier than that. What should have been the right response from OC?  Should they have only called the GNR once the 20 minutes of unfruitful searching has been completed?  And remember that 20 minutes comes after the 10 minutes or so it took to gather enough staff to perform the missing child procedures.

And then you've got the response of the GNR to the phone calls - should they dropped what they were doing and come as fast as possible?

So even though Kate's immediate diagnosis was that Madeleine had been taken, her friends didn't think so.
I think Amy Tierney agreed with Kate in that it looked like she had been taken, but the OC still organised the missing child procedures (which are not designed to solve an abducted child).

When the GNR are finally rung there is no urgency until the second call and then the GNR speed up in getting there.

The GNR then were totally understaffed to contain a child abduction situation.

When the PJ finally turn up they don't see any signs of a break in and hence disbelieve Kate's plea that she's been taken and they walk away from the situation after a couple of hours. 

The GNR at least persist with their tracker dogs looking for a lost girl, but only make half hearted attempts at checking vehicles coming and going. Were there cars, trucks, vans on the roads?   They stop and search a single caravan.

What did Amy Tierney say about the findings she made?


"She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.

The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.

However there was a bed against the window, which could have enabled the girl to climb up onto it and then up to the window, the witness thinks it would not be possible as she would not be able to open the shutters and even if she had done so she would have fallen outside as the window is too high for a child of that age to be able to descend without falling."

these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.  Did Amy not say this to Lyndsay?

Unless there is some evidence of abduction I would say the repose you advocate is over the top.

[G-Unit]

Unless there is some evidence of abduction I would say the repose you advocate is over the top.

It wouldn't have triggered the much vaunted Amber Alert even if there'd been one in place.

[Robittybob1]

Unless there is some evidence of abduction I would say the repose you advocate is over the top.

Well it would be justified at the stage of the Tapas 9 not finding Madeleine in the vicinity.  She had no shoes on so she isn't going to walk far in bare feet.  Amy and Kate both concluded she had "been taken".  That is evidence of abduction. 
window open
shutters up
girl missing
Girl not found in vicinity

I could imagine that OC did not have procedures for the rare event of an abduction.  They had no idea what to do, so they do what they usually do, just look for a missing girl.

Because they also don't see what Kate and Amy saw they think she has just wandered too.

It is the continual lessening of the response I see that as the problem.  For if they had done the over the top response  it would be effective in finding the missing girl too, even if she was missing because people who knew her were moving her.

Only if a car had picked her up and left the area that type of situation can't be stopped by any sort of response locally.

[Robittybob1]

It wouldn't have triggered the much vaunted Amber Alert even if there'd been one in place.

What would trigger an Amber Alert then?
Amber alert named after Amber Hagerman https://youtu.be/uJfN5vdxxzk

[Robittybob1]

It wouldn't have triggered the much vaunted Amber Alert even if there'd been one in place.

https://www.amberalert.gov/guidelines.htm

Summary of Department of Justice Recommended Criteria
There is reasonable belief by law enforcement that an abduction has occurred.
The law enforcement agency believes that the child is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death.
There is enough descriptive information about the victim and the abduction for law enforcement to issue an AMBER Alert to assist in the recovery of the child.
The abduction is of a child aged 17 years or younger.
The child’s name and other critical data elements, including the Child Abduction flag, have been entered into the National Crime Information Center (NCIC) system.

[G-Unit]

https://www.amberalert.gov/guidelines.htm

Summary of Department of Justice Recommended Criteria
There is reasonable belief by law enforcement that an abduction has occurred.
The law enforcement agency believes that the child is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death.
There is enough descriptive information about the victim and the abduction for law enforcement to issue an AMBER Alert to assist in the recovery of the child.
The abduction is of a child aged 17 years or younger.
The child’s name and other critical data elements, including the Child Abduction flag, have been entered into the National Crime Information Center (NCIC) system.

as well as descriptive information about the suspect and the suspect’s vehicle.
https://www.amberalert.gov/guidelines.htm

[slartibartfast]

Well it would be justified at the stage of the Tapas 9 not finding Madeleine in the vicinity.  She had no shoes on so she isn't going to walk far in bare feet.  Amy and Kate both concluded she had "been taken".  That is evidence of abduction. 
window open
shutters up
girl missing
Girl not found in vicinity

I could imagine that OC did not have procedures for the rare event of an abduction.  They had no idea what to do, so they do what they usually do, just look for a missing girl.

Because they also don't see what Kate and Amy saw they think she has just wandered too.

It is the continual lessening of the response I see that as the problem.  For if they had done the over the top response  it would be effective in finding the missing girl too, even if she was missing because people who knew her were moving her.

Only if a car had picked her up and left the area that type of situation can't be stopped by any sort of response locally.

Spain was 1hr 22mins away by car.

[Robittybob1]

Spain was 1hr 22mins away by car.

Do you think a patrol at the border could be organised in time?  Probably 20 minutes has passed  before the alarm is raised?
How many border crossings are there?
What would the instructions be?  Would you suggest they stop and inspect every vehicle, and for how long would the assignment go on?
I did see some figures and there was a vehicle every few seconds across that bridge they talk about. How were you going to manage that?

"Toll Fees: ( New Portuguese Government Regulation)

If you are traveling to Portugal by road, do not forget to bring with you a 20€ bill (local currency), to pay for your toll fee, when crossing the following highway borders:

* Northern borders:

- Highway A3 : Valença do Minho (Portugal) - Tuy (Spain);

- Highway IP3: Chaves (Portugal) - Verín (Spain);

*Center border:

- Highway A25: Vilar Formoso (Portugal) - Fuentes de Oñoro (Spain);

*Southern borders:

- Highway A6: Elvas (Portugal) - Badajoz (Spain);

- Highway A22: Vila Real de Santo António (Portugal) - Ayamonte (Spain);

Once toll fees are electronically paid for resident citizens (they have to buy a electronic chip to be used inside the vehicle which is read by the toll machine, when passing the toll portal), foreign visitors, have to STOP at the border and pay this amount (single price) for all the borders, wherever be your destination, inside the Country. The payment is processed through a sort of ATM machine, but there are assistants nearby, to help you to use it, if you need so. "

So that is 5 major border crossings.

[ShiningInLuz]

Do you think a patrol at the border could be organised in time?  Probably 20 minutes has passed  before the alarm is raised?
How many border crossings are there?
What would the instructions be?  Would you suggest they stop and inspect every vehicle, and for how long would the assignment go on?
I did see some figures and there was a vehicle every few seconds across that bridge they talk about. How were you going to manage that?

If you ever get back on track, you should be able to work out that Kate raised the alarm just after 10pm, and the GNR arrived at 5A around 11.20pm.

From their actions and testimonies, the GNR were looking at that time for a missing girl, not an abducted girl.

[Angelo222]

If you ever get back on track, you should be able to work out that Kate raised the alarm just after 10pm, and the GNR arrived at 5A around 11.20pm.

From their actions and testimonies, the GNR were looking at that time for a missing girl, not an abducted girl.

I would agree with those timings but it should be made clear that the GNR went to main reception first at 11pm where they met Gerry and others before driving up to 5a.

[Brietta]

Spain was 1hr 22mins away by car.

Yellow Notices
Yellow notices are a valuable law enforcement tool that can increase the chances of a missing person being located, particularly if there is a possibility that the person might travel, or be taken, abroad.

What is the purpose of an INTERPOL Yellow Notice?
A Yellow Notice is a global alert to help locate missing persons, or to identify persons who are unable to identify themselves.

Who are the subjects of Yellow Notices?
Yellow Notices are published for victims of parental abductions, criminal abductions (kidnappings) or unexplained disappearances.

How is a Yellow Notice published?

• Police in one of our member countries request a Yellow Notice via their National Central Bureau and provide information on the case.
• The INTERPOL General Secretariat publishes the Notice.
• Police all around the world are alerted.

Why is the Yellow notice important?

• It gives high, international visibility to cases
• Abducted/missing persons are flagged to border officials, making travel difficult
• Countries can request and share critical information linked to the investigation.

https://www.interpol.int/INTERPOL-expertise/Notices/Yellow-Notices

On the 8th May ... Goncalo Amaral requested a yellow alert be issued in Madeleine McCann's case http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELINE.htm

Given that the border with Spain was 1hr 22mins away by car ... how many other international borders would it have been possible to take Madeleine over by land sea or air in the days between the 3rd and the 8th before the request for a yellow alert was made?

In my opinion Madeleine McCann was a little missing child disastrously let down by police who did not use every single resource available to them at the time of most urgent priority s far as she was concerned ... as the late date of the 8th asking for international cooperation in this most elementary of matters proves.

[Robittybob1]

If you ever get back on track, you should be able to work out that Kate raised the alarm just after 10pm, and the GNR arrived at 5A around 11.20pm.

From their actions and testimonies, the GNR were looking at that time for a missing girl, not an abducted girl.

Why do you say "11:20 PM", I can't see why it would take 25 minutes to get there from the reception.

[ShiningInLuz]

Why do you say "11:20 PM", I can't see why it would take 25 minutes to get there from the reception.

As you have just invented 25 minutes, and dropped the 'around' from my 'around 11.20pm', I don't see anything in your post worthy of discussion.