GA : Wait, that's not what I was saying, what is known internationally and in terms of rules for investigation here in Portugal and in any country of the world and by British police, is that you can't trust the timetables provided by suspects, and that is why the Public ministry made a mistake in shelving the process. If you read the dispatch of the shelving, it says: the couple could not have done this or that at that time because they weren't there, but who gave that indication of that half an hour? It was Mr. Gerald McCann and Mrs. Kate McCann.
MST : And all the others, all the friends.
GA : No, no, not all the friends.
MST : They went to that apartment..
GA : Just to that apartment, there are seven children and only that flat...
MST : There are six friends dining plus an older lady, seven people who all say they go there every x minutes.
GA : No, it's like this : Mr. Matthew Oldfield, for example, said that he never saw the girl and says he entered in the apartment and didn't see her, now it's like this: I'm talking in general terms, I do not want to break any injunction, I must be careful with that, all I'm saying in technical terms, of police experts, in police terms, (times) cannot be trusted, it's in the reports, even the British police...
MST : One can't trust what the witnesses say, ok.
GA : Not the witnesses, the suspects, don't you forget that !
MST : (mocking) But you determined them as suspects before they became suspects, it is what it seems to me, really, the idea you give is that they are immediately suspects..
GA : But they're not...
MST : You woke up the next day in the morning and without even having looked at their faces, you are already suspecting them..
GA : But it's a golden rule...
MST : Which golden rule ? I think the golden rule here is to start investigating, if there is evidence, then suspicions may arise, but before you have any evidence, there are already suspicions.
GA : No, in international terms... We don't have many cases...
MST : Gonçalo Amaral, excuse me for that, but it seems to me that you started from a thesis and looked for evidence to confirm your thesis, instead of doing the other way round.
GA : You're wrong, on the contrary I can tell you something: in the beginning they said it was a case similar to another one, I said no...
MST : Similar with the Joana Cipriano case...
GA : Not again...
MST :The case of Joana..
GA : And our mistake...
MST : Is equal...
GA : No, it's not equal..
MST : You also investigated, also there was no body and you concluded that the mother and the brother did it.
GA : I didn't conclude it, it was the court of Portimão who concluded it and they were condemned.
MST : Let me ask you if you were convinced, I wasn't, I believe you were satisfied as an investigator that the court corroborated your thesis, right ? In the case of Joana...
GA : But why my thesis ? It was the police...
MST : It was proved that she was beaten, that was judged also that she was beaten hard..
GA : Who was condemned?
MST : You were condemned with a suspended sanction, suspended not for beating her but for making false declarations about the case...
GA : How did I make false declarations ? How do we come to this ? I'm going to explain it quickly...
MST : There was a judicial sentence, I'm guided by the sentence.
GA : No, I was heard always as a witness and one day (inaudible)...
MST : Let me ask you a question, do you think that in this country many people believes that Leonor Cipriano killed her daughter ?
GA : I think so.
MST : Very few people, Gonçalo Amaral, very few people.
GA : You think?
MST : How can a woman without any instruction, without any proof, who was beaten hard by the PJ...
GA : It wasn't proved that she was beaten, you are going to...
MST : How could she manage to be so clever that she kills her daughter, hides the body and the PJ couldn't get a single trace?
GA : Not a single residue ?
MST : Then months later exactly the same happens with a British couple.
GA : A PJ didn't find any residue (in the Joana case) ?
MST : Where is the body?
GA : The inspection was carried 12 days after and taking into account the circumstances, there was blood, washing of the apartment itself, a person who never cleaned the house cleaned it at that time, there are a series of traces, if you want to talk about that case, let's talk of it, I mean..
MST : Something should exist for the court to condemn her, now there is also a revision of the sentence based on something...
GA : Yes the revision of the sentence was rejected.
MST : It was ? I didn't know that, look, I wish it had been, because that one doesn't convince me
GA : Why doesn't it convince you?
MST : It doesn't convince me, because I have an a priori suspicion
GA : On justice in this country.
MST : No, about defendants sent to a court of justice after confessing to crimes made under beating, which is obvious, I cannot accept that, therefore, I suspect.
GA : But the lady confessed.
MST : Yes I think there is a confession.
GA : When was that ?
MST : There is a confession in the files, I don't know when. What I know is she (Leonor) was taken out of jail, during the night, she was taken back to the PJ facilities and they returned her beaten, it was during the night and besides it was participated by the director of the jail, right?
GA : At night? Maybe it should have been examined better, because you know... if we are going to talk about this case, there's something essential...
MST : But we are not going to talk about Joana Cipriano, let's go back to the Maddie case.
GA : Let me mention it quickly, I was accused in this process of omission of denouncing and I ask: what did that lady (the jail's director) when she found someone coming from the PJ assalted. Why didn't she ask for medico-legal help ? Why didn't she inform the Public ministry, why did she ask a person dependent on her...
MST : We don't have time, let's go back to the Maddie case..
GA : Wait, let me finish this...
MST : A conclusion, nothing more.
GA : Why did she ask a dependant employee to make a medical examination with a psychiatric one, this is interesting, because there are experts in Odemira and there are forensic experts. There was no necessity that a German psychiatrist dependent on the director made examination.
MST : I'm not discussing the Joana case, I don't have time, what I want is the Maddie case, it is still actual, it didn't reach any conclusion, at the time of the Maddie case, the Times of London wrote something which I agree completely, it said like this
GA : It's your opinion? I cannot give mine?
MST : About this you can give it, The Times said the Portuguese police continues to be the bulk of their investigations in the self-incrimination of arguidos, of suspects...
GA : That's a lie
MST : Listen, or through phone tapping where they confess the crime, or through confessions....
GA : I'm going to explain to you..
MST : Let me finish.. and I remembered this, because when you tell in the book that when Kate McCann was made arguida, there were great expectations that she'd confess spontaneously and she didn't confess and the husband didn't confess and then they returned to England, you became very disappointed because they returned to England, because from that moment on, they were not here for you to continue interrogate them...
GA : To England we already knew they were going... Our director (Alipio Ribeiro) found hasted the nomination as arguidos, but they were leaving and there are statements in that direction, but saying that...
MST : But it was a right they had.
GA : Yes, it was, completely.
MST : To whom read the news blown by the police and the media, by police obviously
GA : Why obviously? Why not by the Public ministry, by British police?
MST : (mocking) By Public ministry, by British police. Its another opinion of mine;. For you it seemed that the McCanns were suspects because they returned to England, they returned home five months later, whereas their function was to stay here to be interrogated, be interrogated by the PJ until they confessed something they never did, isn't that right?
GA : We are running out of time, you told me so, let's change the format, I'm going to tell you very quickly one important thing : as for the couple McCann, they only mentioned leaving on the day that British dogs arrived to Portugal and after Mr. Gerald McCann learnt the potentialities of those dogs, and to let everything clear and why I wrote the book...
MST : I don't see the connection, if they'd be in London, wouldn't the dogs act the same way?
GA : Here the dogs seem to have failed, it's because of the heat in Algarve.
MST : What difference can they make by being here or not, at the same time as the dogs?
GA : What difference? They knew what was going to happen next, until that, they walked holding hands and the PJ gave them information every week. But as this interview is close to the send and I think I have the right to tell something..
MST : Tell it.
GA : I wrote that book, the truth of the lie, in the exercise of my freedom of speech like the judge told, because of the attacks towards me : they called me, the British press, 418 times shameful, 440 times outrageous, 140 times torturer, 45 times disabled, 37 times incompetent, 23 times libertine cop, 20 times sacked...
MST : Let me tell you, I heard what you said..
GA : When my freedom of speech is at stake, and when the Parliament discusses the issue of freedom of speech, as it occurred recently, and the discussion should be extended, because what's at stake here is not only my freedom of speech, it's the freedom of speech of the journalists and citizens of this country.
MST : (bored) Yes, yes, I heard, so, you made your statement, I only want a short answer to this question: imagine, imagine yourself, because I cannot imagine myself, that the McCanns are indeed innocent, imagine that they are under the excruciating pain of losing their daughter who was abducted, that they do not know what happened to her, they had still suffered the ignominy of seeing themselves considered suspects of having killed their daughter and hidden her corpse, have you already thought about that hypothesis?
GA : I have already thought of that and thought of all hypotheses..
GA : and you sleep serenely, certain that this didn´t happened?
GA : I do sleep, you know why? Who required the shelving of the process? You spoke of it in that Express article. The couple McCann. Who conformed with the shelving of the process? The couple McCann.
MST : excuse me but they are not conformed, I think that they want to reopen the process.
GA : Excuse me but you don't know the rules. They could at that time have opened the instruction.
MST : Dr. Amaral, I have to "shelve" the interview.
GA : Sadly, sadly..www.videos.sapo.pt/kytCmGbwRvczB463ubkb