Author Topic: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction  (Read 6541 times)

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Offline puglove

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Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #75 on: April 17, 2017, 05:04:00 PM »
I made contact with Craig Fries and Judy Melinek:

http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(17)30002-6/references

They seem to think a reconstruction is possible.  I guess a cynic would add "of course... $$  £4%4%"  But I don't see why not.  All the evidence is still available:

Physical layout of WHF
Autopsy photos and reports detailing victims' wounds and anatomy
Soc photos for casings
Image of rifle and silencer

It would surely be possible to map this out using digital technology.  But it is likely to be more complicated and costly than another test which has the potential to destroy the silencer evidence.  And as I said a reconstruction showing NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing and main stairs, or main stairs only, doesn't make JB innocent or overcome the silencer evidence.

I distinctly remember old Colly Cropper on blue PROMISING to finance any tests that Bamber needed. You should contact her, Holl, get her to cough up. If she's still alive.
There was an old woman called P@
Who worshipped a murdering tw@
She typed all day long
Getting everything wrong
Then her pussyc@ sh@ in her h@.

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2017, 07:01:48 PM »
I distinctly remember old Colly Cropper on blue PROMISING to finance any tests that Bamber needed. You should contact her, Holl, get her to cough up. If she's still alive.

She'll be totally proccupied with Robert Halfon now he's a Minister.       

Although a reconstruction could potentially support JB's case there's also a counter argument (as you've pointed out) and in any event it doesn't tackle the central plank of the prosecution case against JB namely the silencer.

JB's former solicitor and CCRC commissioner Ewen Smith re the silencer @ 3 mins in:

http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/2001/03/12/BSP120301024/?s=jeremy+bamber&st=0&pn=1     
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Caroline

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2017, 11:41:48 AM »
She'll be totally proccupied with Robert Halfon now he's a Minister.       

Although a reconstruction could potentially support JB's case there's also a counter argument (as you've pointed out) and in any event it doesn't tackle the central plank of the prosecution case against JB namely the silencer.

JB's former solicitor and CCRC commissioner Ewen Smith re the silencer @ 3 mins in:

http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/2001/03/12/BSP120301024/?s=jeremy+bamber&st=0&pn=1   

But even without the silencer, it doesn't make Jeremy innocent.

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2017, 02:11:03 PM »
But even without the silencer, it doesn't make Jeremy innocent.

True but my understanding is that the judicial system in England is adversarial and based on the presumption of innocence at trial with a jury finding not guilty or guilty.  Thereafter at appeal it is about finding some evidence that renders the trial verdict unsafe.  It is almost certain that if the silencer evidence can be undermined then JB's conviction will be quashed as per Ewen Smith above (and if it isn't the conviction will stand).   
   
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Samson

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2017, 02:40:54 PM »
True but my understanding is that the judicial system in England is adversarial and based on the presumption of innocence at trial with a jury finding not guilty or guilty.  Thereafter at appeal it is about finding some evidence that renders the trial verdict unsafe.  It is almost certain that if the silencer evidence can be undermined then JB's conviction will be quashed as per Ewen Smith above (and if it isn't the conviction will stand).   
   
Holly:
We are describing parallel universes here and in Mark Lundy in New Zealand.
Jeremy Bamber and Mark Lundy are accused of killing their families for financial gain.
They both have cast iron logistical alibis.

Locked room murder mysteries are great fiction, but terrible witch trials.
You are doing all in your power to help this forum arrive at the obvious solution.

Offline adam

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2017, 07:19:34 PM »
And how come Roch is suddenly some sort of Bamber virgin? He was a mod, 4 years ago.

I don't mind posters writing long posts making big statements. Providing sources or good supporting arguments are supplied. With or without requests.

In the last week -

Sheila 'definately comnitted the massacre'.

The police '100%' framed Bamber.

Sheila was 'planning the massacre in her head' at supper.

Bamber is innocent because  he chose the wrong weapon.

The massacre was not planned.

Some of the police were aware Sheila was the killer.

Bamber is innocent because he made mistakes afterwards.

                                                  ----------------

The problem is no sources or valid supporting arguments have been supplied.

Today it has been said a police man saw Sheila without the rifle on her. But again no source has been supplied.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 07:38:30 PM by adam »

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #81 on: April 21, 2017, 12:33:18 PM »
As far as I'm concerned all the physical evidence supports NB sustaining his lip and jaw gsw's facing towards the master bedroom whilst stood on the landing stairs with the perp stood just inside.  NB then retreated back downstairs sustaining the gsw's to his shoulder and chest/elbow graze wound whilst on the main stairs, facing down towards the main door/hall, with the perp behind.  This is supported by:

- None of NB's blood found in the main bedroom.  Two small spots of blood were found on the landing but these were inconclusive when tested.  Bloodstaining was found on the stairs but this doesn't appear to have been tested or if it was the results appear unknown.  Blood matching NB's group was found on wallpaper in the hall.

- The location of casings supports the theory above.  Malcolm Fletcher told the court at trial that the Anshutz rifle ejects casings to the right, upwards and forwards at a distance of up to 4 metres.  The following vid shows 'Farm Girl' firing her Bushmaster rifle which shows the sort of height and length casings travel.  Although the Bushmaster ejects backwards.  (New vid Myster.)  The vid supports the theory the perp fired at NB from behind on the stairs and casings DRH/13 and 14 flew over the handrail and ended up on the transistion strip and landing stairs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6I8lgiagFU -  Watch the casings fly!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whOpcwwu5Zo - Watch the casings fly!

We can also see how straightforward it is to load the magazine, prepare for fire and pull the trigger with longish, manicured and painted nails. 

- Distance of shots: lip and jaw within inches of NB's skin and shoulder and chest/elbow at least 2 feet from body.

- Trajectories: 20 degrees below the horizontal lip and jaw.  Downwards for the shoulder and chest/elbow.

- Wound tracks:  front to back for lip and jaw.  Dr Vanezis' trial testimony confirms the shoulder shot was fired from above. 

SC as Perp

I doubt any expert will disagree with the fact that NB was shot in the locations above.  However as pointed out by puglove it doesn't rule out JB.  My theory is that NB and SC were downstairs.  Why they were downstairs, how long they had been there and their exact locations will never be known. NB made the tel call to JB.  SC went upstairs and shot June.  NB leaves the phone and runs upstairs where he is shot as above.

JB as Perp

However it is possible NB heard a noise whilst JB was in the twins room.  NB went to investigate.  Meanwhile JB entered the master bedroom via the box room and shot June.  NB then reappears at the bedroom door and is shot as above. 

SC as perp

She was able to shoot June and NB at different times in different rooms: June the bedroom, NB the landing stairs and main stairs.  2 adults v 1 adult.

JB as perp

He was also able to shoot June and NB at different times in different rooms as above but what was SC doing?  3 adults v 1 adult.  Why and how would SC sleep through June being shot at least 5 times in the master bedroom and NB twice on the landing and twice on the main stairs?  SC's bedroom was literally a few steps away from the master bedroom across the landing.  JB could not be in 3 places at once.  June was still mobile evidenced by the fact she was able to walk around the bed as per bloodstaining.  NB was able to make it to the kitchen.  SC was uninjured whilst in her own bedroom.  Toxicology tests show SC had a moderate dose of Haloperidol in her blood and a trace of cannabis so compos mentis.  The tracks and trajectories of SC's gsw's were up into her neck whilst prone on the floor.  How could JB have pulled this off without SC resisting and causing some injury to JB?
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Online John

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #82 on: April 21, 2017, 06:57:47 PM »
According to Ed Lawson's cross-examination of Malcolm Fletcher June sustained a total of 8 gsw's.  1 gsw didn't penetrate her skin and caused a bruise only which resulted in bullet DRH/5.  Had exhibits not been destroyed then it may well have been possible to check this bullet for June's DNA.  8 casings were found either on June's side of the bed or on the floor June's side.  The other four casings found upstairs and relevant to June/NB: DRH/3, 4, 13 and 14 were found just inside the door, on the transition strip and landing.  Imo this shows the perp stood in the entrance facing out shooting at NB on the landing or the perp on the main stairs and shooting at NB on the main stairs.  The casings eject to the right, upwards and forwards.   

The perp was clearly stood in a very similar location for DRH/6, 7, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 43 with the barrel pointing in the same direction.  Then moved for DRH/3, 4, 13 and 14 with the barrel pointing in a completely different direction. The fact NB was shot on the landing and main stairs or main stairs only doesn't make JB innocent but it does create a highly plausible scenario for the claimed call from NB. Only the killer knows where he was when he discharged the rifle at June and Nevill.

Did you ever think that casings DRH 3,4,5 and 13 could very well have rebounded off the bedroom door after having been discharged from a position at or just outside the door?  No amount of theorising can ever determine the actual position the shooter was in Holly, there are simply too many variables at play. Only the killer knows where he stood when he discharged the rifle at June and Nevill.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 07:02:44 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
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Offline Myster

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #83 on: April 21, 2017, 07:49:12 PM »
SC as Perp

I doubt any expert will disagree with the fact that NB was shot in the locations above.  However as pointed out by puglove it doesn't rule out JB. My theory is that NB and SC were downstairs.  Why they were downstairs, how long they had been there and their exact locations will never be known. NB made the tel call to JB.  SC went upstairs and shot June.  NB leaves the phone and runs upstairs where he is shot as above.
Not in the real world that I inhabit, Holly.  If Sheila had hold of a loaded rifle and was "going crazy", it beggars belief that Nevill would have allowed her out of his sight to waste time kindling a sleeping log.
‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2017, 02:49:04 PM »
Did you ever think that casings DRH 3,4,5 and 13 could very well have rebounded off the bedroom door after having been discharged from a position at or just outside the door?  No amount of theorising can ever determine the actual position the shooter was in Holly, there are simply too many variables at play. Only the killer knows where he stood when he discharged the rifle at June and Nevill.

DRH/5 was a bullet (now destroyed) which Scipio and I dedicated an entire thread to:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7940.msg383818#msg383818

There's a mountain of available data which according to experts will prove in no uncertain terms where vitcims were shot and the position of perp: bloodstaining, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks. 
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #85 on: April 22, 2017, 02:50:13 PM »
Not in the real world that I inhabit, Holly.  If Sheila had hold of a loaded rifle and was "going crazy", it beggars belief that Nevill would have allowed her out of his sight to waste time kindling a sleeping log.

The physical evidence at soc seems to suggest otherwise.
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2017, 10:29:31 AM »
By sheer chance and coincidence I glanced through Scott Lomax's book yesterday and noticed he claims SC's fingerprints were found on a shotgun.  No source so I've no idea how reliable it is. 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 05:04:42 PM by Admin »
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2017, 11:21:47 AM »
Anyway back on topic.  I was wondering why JB's defence didn't try to reconstruct the soc?  Asking 12 people taken at random (jury) to take on board a lot of complex info over a short time period is asking a lot.  At one time I thought the case, like many complex trials, was perhaps beyond a jury but I think I was wrong as it is clear from the questions they posed to the judge that they arrived at the hub of the case which is the silencer and blood.  Had the defence painted some pictures, metaphorically, this could have potentially been a powerful tool.     
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Caroline

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2017, 12:44:37 PM »
By sheer chance and coincidence I glanced through Scott Lomax's book yesterday and noticed he claims SC's fingerprints were found on a shotgun.  No source so I've no idea how reliable it is.

I actually wrote to SL on this subject a few years ago, just checked my email and it's still there. This is what he said but it's not very convincing ..... By the way, I have left the time and date stamp but have not included email addresses.

"Sent: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:54 Subject:
Re: Bamber Case (Shotgun Finger Prints)
Hi Caroline, Thank you for your email. You are probably best contacting the Bamber campaign as they have greater access to the documents. I have seen the relevant document but don't have a copy. I am not convinced it is strictly relevant to what happened that night. I am not sure what the document reference is - I wrote the book in 2004 which is when I saw the document, so I can't recall its contents. There will be references to it in my notes but I don't have time to go through them all. So it is best you get in touch with the campaign."
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 05:03:56 PM by Admin »

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2017, 01:12:39 PM »
The phone call was clearly an important aspect of the case for jurors to consider.  Either the call happened, as JB claimed, and he's innocent.  Or he made it up and he's guilty.

If the perp burst into the master bedroom with NB sustaining his lip and jaw gsw's there, this seems to support the prosecution case of no phone call since no blood was found on the phone and NB's lip and jaw gsw rendered him incapable of purposeful speech   

The defence at trial and 2002 appeal appear to have made the fatal mistake of going along with the prosecution case that the perp burst into the master bedroom and shot NB in the bedroom despite the physical evidence suggesting otherwise.  Therefore how could NB have made the tel call when a) NB was losing a lot of blood from his lip and jaw gsw's and none was found on or around the mouthpiece and b) the lip and jaw gsw's rendered him incapable of purposeful speech.

In the attached Geoffrey Rivlin QC cross examines Dr Vanezis about NB's lip and jaw gsw's and the amount of blood produced.  Imo GR doesn't spell it out for jurors by asking the question ie could NB have sustained these gsw's in the bedroom and escaped without leaving a trace of blood in the bedroom or landing?  Instead it could be considered an own goal in that jurors may well have thought thought NB could not have made the call wtihout leaving any blood on the mouthpiece?  We are told by the appeal court judges that Geoffrey Rivlin had a reputation for thoroughness:

"Counsel with the experience of Mr Rivlin QC, and with his acknowledged reputation for thoroughness",

In the attached Ed Lawson QC cross-examines Malcolm Fletcher and asks if anyone was shot outside the bedroom upstairs.  MF answers no.  Ed Lawson offers no challenge despite MF's explanation that casings are ejected to the right, upwards and forwards and travel up to 4 feet.  And yet EL was hailed as the "cleverest of the clever"  &%+((£

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/law-obituaries/5309767/Edmund-Lawson-QC.html

Everyone makes mistakes.  Yes even me  8)--)) And yet these people are talked about as though super human which imo is unhealthy for the judicial system. 
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92