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http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Books/Murders-at-White-House-Farm-Carol-Ann-Lee/9780283072222
"On 7 August 1985, Nevill and June Bamber, their daughter Sheila and her two young sons Nicholas and Daniel were discovered shot to death at White House Farm in Essex. The murder weapon was found on Sheila's body; a bible lay at her side. All the windows and doors of the farmhouse were secure, and the Bambers' son, 24-year-old Jeremy, had alerted police after apparently receiving a phone call from his father, who told him Sheila had 'gone berserk' with the gun. It seemed a straightforward case of murder-suicide, but a dramatic turn of events was to disprove the police's theory. In October 1986, Jeremy Bamber was convicted of killing his entire family in order to inherit his parents' substantial estates. He has always maintained his innocence. Drawing on interviews and correspondence with many of those closely connected to the events - including Jeremy Bamber - and a wealth of previously unpublished documentation, Carol Ann Lee brings astonishing clarity to a complex and emotive case. She describes the years of rising tension in the family that culminated in the murders, and provides clear insight into the background of each individual and their relationships within the family unit. Scrupulously fair in its analysis, The Murders at White House Farm is an absorbing portrait of a family, a time and a place, and a gripping account of one of Britain's most notorious crimes."
About the Author
"Carol Ann Lee is the highly acclaimed author of ten books, including One of Your Own: The Life and Death of Myra Hindley, Witness: The Story of David Smith and A Fine Day for a Hanging: The Real Ruth Ellis Story. Witness and A Fine Day for a Hanging were both shortlisted for CWA Non-Fiction Dagger Awards."
288
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I've no idea of the reason but it appears two slightly different covers exist:
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The numbers:
CAL's link has 12 full lines of text about the book and 2 full lines about the author:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6386.msg246982#msg246982
PH's link has 9 full lines of text about the book and 10 full lines about the author:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6384.msg246801#msg246801
CAL's book:
Dimensions: 23.4cm x 15.3cm
Number of pages: 320
Amazon price - hardcover: £14.88 = £0.0465 per page
PH's book:
Dimensions: 23cm x 15cm
Number of pages: 216
Amazon price - hardcover: £13.99 = £0.0647 per page
@)(++(* a new username (if I ever feel I need a change) could be Seriously Sad 8)><(
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From the Inside Flap
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Murders-White-House-Farm/dp/0283072210
Light spilled from the windows of White House Farm and inside a dog whimpered as Essex Police approached on 7 August 1985. When they entered they found the bodies of Nevill and June Bamber, their daughter Sheila and her two young sons. It looked as if Sheila had shot them all then turned the gun on herself.
As the media destroyed Sheila's reputation, the behaviour of her brother Jeremy was raising suspicions in his horrified relatives. Had he committed the murders in order to inherit from his wealthy parents? Dramatic new evidence suggested he had, and he was convicted the following year. He has always protested his innocence.
Drawing on extensive new research, including correspondence with Jeremy Bamber, Carol Ann Lee describes the years of rising tension in the family that culminated in the murders and takes us through the twists and turns of the investigation and trial. Scrupulously fair, The Murders at White House Farm is an absorbing portrait of a family, a time and place, and a gripping account of one of Britain's most notorious crimes.
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I ask myself will a third book surface? &%+((£
?>)()< 8(>(( ?{)(** 8)--)) 8)-))) @)(++(* 8@??)( 8**8:/: 8(*( *&*%£ 8((()*/ &%54%
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I ask myself will a third book surface? &%+((£
?>)()< 8(>(( ?{)(** 8)--)) 8)-))) @)(++(* 8@??)( 8**8:/: 8(*( *&*%£ 8((()*/ &%54%
So long as it isn't any biased science-fiction potboiler by Miss H.G. Wells. 8((()*/
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Are you feeling OK tonight? @)(++(*
So long as it isn't any proposed biased book by Miss H.G. Wells. 8((()*/
Early start on the razz 8((()*/
I'm no book reader and even less of a writer so you're ok there.
We've heard about the forthcoming books by CAL and PH for so long I just have a feeling a third, hitherto unknown, might surface &%+((£ Nothing concrete.
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According to The Robert Smith literary agency CAL is going to answer once and for all the question of whether JB murdered his family or not.
"Carol Ann Lee has written the definitive story of the killing of the Bamber family in Essex 30 years ago, The Murders At White House Farm, to be published by Sidgwick & Jackson in July. Did Jeremy Bamber murder his family? Carol has interviewed everyone involved, including Bamber himself, and has reassessed all the evidence, much of it new, to answer that question once and for all".
http://www.robertsmithliteraryagency.com/
I wonder if any of the books will be serialised in the papers?
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According to The Robert Smith literary agency CAL is going to answer once and for all the question of whether JB murdered his family or not.
"Carol Ann Lee has written the definitive story of the killing of the Bamber family in Essex 30 years ago, The Murders At White House Farm, to be published by Sidgwick & Jackson in July. Did Jeremy Bamber murder his family? Carol has interviewed everyone involved, including Bamber himself, and has reassessed all the evidence, much of it new, to answer that question once and for all".
http://www.robertsmithliteraryagency.com/ (http://www.robertsmithliteraryagency.com/)
I wonder if any of the books will be serialised in the papers?
We're in for a treat!... not just one, but two books that will answer the question "once and for all". 8@??)(
Looks like you'll have reassess your position, Holls! 8(8-))
It'll not be much dearer buying a book than forking out for numerous daily or weekly newspapers... although they'd reach a larger audience.
Something fishy about this move to Wakefield. &%+((£ Do you think JB knows the conclusion of these books and is about to confess?
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We're in for a treat!... not just one, but two books that will answer the question "once and for all". 8@??)(
Looks like you'll have reassess your position, Holls! 8(8-))
It'll not be much dearer buying a book than forking out for numerous daily or weekly newspapers... although they'd reach a larger audience.
Something fishy about this move to Wakefield. &%+((£ Do you think JB knows the conclusion of these books and is about to confess?
I have no idea what CAL's position is. Initially her book was due for release Apr 2014 and titled 'Blood Guilt':
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Blood_Guilt.html?id=DUQVnwEACAAJ
I thought 'Blood Guilt' may have been a ref to the open pages of the bible; the relationship between June and SC with June supposedly referring to SC as the Devil's child and SC perhaps believing this based on her unknown parentage/adoption; June struggling to come to terms with her illegitimate adopted children based on her religiosity/sexual morality, hence 'Blood Guilt'. A bit heavy but there doesn't seem to be anything light about WHF.
In the write up re the forthcoming book CAL refers to the years of rising tensions within the family that culminated in the murders. I took this to mean SC's life: school expulsions, unplanned pregnancies, abortions, miscarriages, sacked from her job, unable to gain permanent employment, divorce, financial problems, difficulty parenting her children, recreational drugs, lifelong difficult relationship with June and meeting her birth mother ie the emphasis on SC being responsible.
However I see in a slightly different write up she refers to setting the crime against the historical context showing JB as a brash outsider; a product of Thatcher's 80's who thought he could and should have it all:
https://m.mightyape.co.nz/product/The-Murders-at-White-House-Farm-Hardback/22962849
This sounds like she's angling at a guilty JB on the basis of greed.
Have to wait and see. Exciting times!
I can see how up-to-date books on the case could make for an interesting read but I struggle with any smoking gun emerging either way. Sadly I think the whole sorry saga will drag on.
There are a number of ?'s re JB's move to Monster Mansion:
1. JB parting company with SM around the end 2013.
2. No announcement of a replacement to SM.
3. PH supposedly changing stance around end of 2013/beginning of 2014. I say supposedly as we don't know what his earlier views were and how strong they were either way. Or his motivation(s) for writing a book about WHF and how much influence others have had, if any, in making it as sellable as possible. I recall he posted on Blue some info had come to light that he needed to let the authorities know about. This was around the time his book was delayed and he changed stance.
4. A number of posters on Blue changing stance, or claiming they have changed stance, around the time of 3 above. Namely the CApris and Susan M-Ing-ing-ham.
5. DS Jones passing away beginning 2014.
6. CAL and PH delaying publication of their books from Apr 2014 to Jul 2015.
7. PH's claims of death threats in connection with JB's case.
8. The CT, JB and others insisting an application is winging its way to CCRC but no sign of.
9. The imminent release of two case related books which coincide with the 30th anniversary of the tragedy.
10. JB moved to Monster Mansion.
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Still think a third book might emerge by a serious player - a heavyweight - with serialisation in a broadsheet. Nothing concrete just a feeling!
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Still think a third book might emerge by a serious player - a heavyweight - with serialisation in a broadsheet. Nothing concrete just a feeling!
Oh Holl, hope certainly springs eternal in your breast, doesn't it? (Myster, stop thinking about Holly's breast ?8)@)-) )
Well, you'd better hope that this miraculous third book comes up with something a bit more promising than some shitty little cakes that look like they were made by Mr. Tumble, and a weird, kinky pineapple nipple thingy. Because at the moment, it looks like that's the best he's got. 8)><( xxx
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(Myster, stop thinking about Holly's breast ?8)@)-) )
8)><( No choice but to end it all then... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH7oxaOv9ao (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH7oxaOv9ao)
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8)><( No choice but to end it all then... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH7oxaOv9ao (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH7oxaOv9ao)
Ah, that song is my guilty pleasure.
I didn't know that Nelly covered it, though.
Mmmm. Sweaty moobs. ?{)(**
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Ah, that song is my guilty pleasure.
I didn't know that Nelly covered it, though.
Mmmm. Sweaty moobs. ?{)(**
This will probably get deleted but, with the exception of Holly (who is battling with her own demons) ....I have zero respect for anyone who supports Bamber. Silly , angry, hubristic old men, daft old women who smell of wee, daft tarts who can't see the wood for the trees, and dodgy blokes who are too lazy to do their homework. Scipio has told you exactly how it happened.
Bamber now resides at Monster Mansions. Where he belongs. Because he's a child killer. And no amount of books will help him.
8((()*/
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This will probably get deleted but, with the exception of Holly (who is battling with her own demons) ....I have zero respect for anyone who supports Bamber. Silly , angry, hubristic old men, daft old women who smell of wee, daft tarts who can't see the wood for the trees, and dodgy blokes who are too lazy to do their homework. Scipio has told you exactly how it happened.
Bamber now resides at Monster Mansions. Where he belongs. Because he's a child killer. And no amount of books will help him.
8((()*/
@)(++(* 8((()*/
Grrrrr demons grrrr.... I've worked through my issues and I'm now a mature well rounded individual with bags of emotional intelligence; capable of giving and receiving love; and full of compassion for my fellow human beings ?{)(**
I'm aware of my weaknesses and accept I will always be vulnerable around park benches, Carlsberg Special Brew and abandoned babies ?{)(**
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Ah, that song is my guilty pleasure.
I didn't know that Nelly covered it, though.
Mmmm. Sweaty moobs.
Just an idea...how about a reality Blue n Red forum whereby one poster from each forum is nominated for a recorded dinner date? Pay to view the dinner/meeting with the proceeds going to good causes? Puglove and Nelly could kick it off? *&*%£
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Just an idea...how about a reality Blue n Red forum whereby one poster from each forum is nominated for a recorded dinner date? Pay to view the dinner/meeting with the proceeds going to good causes? Puglove and Nelly could kick it off? *&*%£
Kick being the operative word Holly. Are you trying to start WW3? @)(++(*
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Just an idea...how about a reality Blue n Red forum whereby one poster from each forum is nominated for a recorded dinner date? Pay to view the dinner/meeting with the proceeds going to good causes? Puglove and Nelly could kick it off? *&*%£
I would SO be up for that!! 8((()*/
(Don't think I'd get much grub, though. &%&£(+ )
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Kick being the operative word Holly. Are you trying to start WW3? @)(++(*
No! Potentially it could be a fantastic opportunity to increase the profile of the forum ?>)()<
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http://heyevent.uk/event/vdku5bn5knsm2a/carol-ann-lee-book-launch
Best wishes with your book launch Carol Ann Lee 8((()*/
I have already ordered mine via my local Waterstones. Can't wait to read it. Feel like an excited child at Chistmas counting the days on the advent calendar 8(*(
Btw if you see a rotund Monster Munching man with a dog called Misty that will be Mike from Blue. If your books not pro Bamber best advise Waterstones to step up security 8)--))
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Just an idea...how about a reality Blue n Red forum whereby one poster from each forum is nominated for a recorded dinner date? Pay to view the dinner/meeting with the proceeds going to good causes? Puglove and Nelly could kick it off? *&*%£
Delilah will need a major facelift to make her bellissima before any dinner-date's arranged. 8**8:/:
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http://heyevent.uk/event/vdku5bn5knsm2a/carol-ann-lee-book-launch (http://heyevent.uk/event/vdku5bn5knsm2a/carol-ann-lee-book-launch)
Best wishes with your book launch Carol Ann Lee 8((()*/
I have already ordered mine via my local Waterstones. Can't wait to read it. Feel like an excited child at Chistmas counting the days on the advent calendar 8(*(
Btw if you see a rotund Monster Munching man with a dog called Misty that will be Mike from Blue. If your books not pro Bamber best advise Waterstones to step up security 8)--))
Or Chestmas even. 8**8:/:
But Oh dear... 8(8-)) ... no mention of case solved "once and for all" in that link.
It must be, surely... if the account's "definitive"? &%+((£
Do you really think CAL reads all the claptrap written by misfits and ne'er-do-wells here? 8)-)))
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Delilah will need a major facelift to make her bellissima before any dinner-date's arranged. 8**8:/:
Job done!...
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How fitting that 'Coney' Street in York, only 12 miles from Full Sutton was chosen for her book launch! &%+((£
Remember to click on the green button, Holls.
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How fitting that 'Coney' Street in York, only 12 miles from Full Sutton was chosen for her book launch! &%+((£
Remember to click on the green button, Holls.
CAL is a Yorkshire lass. What better place for a book launch than the beautiful city of York? I know the area well. I have relatives that live on Stockton Lane (main road leading in/out York City) and visited regularly as a child.
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Delilah will need a major facelift to make her bellissima before any dinner-date's arranged. 8**8:/:
The whole purpose of a reality forum would be to film 2 posters with opposing views in a convivial setting and to contrast the exchanges with those on a virtual forum (Blue n Red). It's not romance/sex. We have Plenty of Fish and Tinder for that!
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Or Chestmas even. 8**8:/:
But Oh dear... 8(8-)) ... no mention of case solved "once and for all" in that link.
It must be, surely... if the account's "definitive"? &%+((£
Do you really think CAL reads all the claptrap written by misfits and ne'er-do-wells here? 8)-)))
Ooooh Chestmas 8**8:/: 8(*( 8**8:/: 8(*(
I understand CAL does read Blue. Don't know about Red.
PH made himself known to the forums so why not CAL? Albeit more discreetly.
It's difficult to see how authors have access to anything that isn't in the public domain. Unless they have shelled out for expert witnesses by way of ballistics, pathology, SoC, psychology etc to review old material using modern methods and technologies etc. I guess it's interesting to see how lay people/posters interpret the existing info and arrive at conclusions. 12 ordinary folk sealed JB's fate.
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Ooooh Chestmas 8**8:/: 8(*( 8**8:/: 8(*(
I understand CAL does read Blue. Don't know about Red.
PH made himself known to the forums so why not CAL? Albeit more discreetly.
It's difficult to see how authors have access to anything that isn't in the public domain. Unless they have shelled out for expert witnesses by way of ballistics, pathology, SoC, psychology etc to review old material using modern methods and technologies etc. I guess it's interesting to see how lay people/posters interpret the existing info and arrive at conclusions. 12 ordinary folk sealed JB's fate...
&%+((£ ... CAroLine? 8((()*/
... and D.Sgt Stan Jones. ?>)()<
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&%+((£ ... CAroLine? 8((()*/
... and D.Sgt Stan Jones. ?>)()<
If CAroLine is Carol Ann Lee I'm Mother Teresa and Naughty Nun was just a cover 8((()*/
DS Jones formed part of the investigation and not one of the 12 ordinary folk aka the jury.
Little point in speculating about anything now as in just under 3 weeks time we will have access to PH's book. And then less than two weeks later CAL's. Think I'll have a rest until then and chill out in the summer sun 8(>((
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Actually I should have said just over 3 weeks time. 3 weeks tomorrow to be precise.
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Actually I should have said just over 3 weeks time. 3 weeks tomorrow to be precise.
Oy Vey!!! You want precise... you got precise... The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/to?iso=20150730T00&p0=1348&msg=The+Murders+at+White+House+Farm&font=serif&csz=1&swk=1)
and for balance... Deviant: Jeremy Bamber and the White House Farm Murders by Paul Harrison. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/to?iso=20150718T00&p0=1362&msg=Deviant%3A+Jeremy+Bamber+%26+the+White+House+Farm+Murders&font=serif&swk=1)
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Oy Vey!!! You want precise... you got precise... The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/to?iso=20150730T00&p0=1348&msg=The+Murders+at+White+House+Farm&font=serif&csz=1&swk=1)
and for balance... Deviant: Jeremy Bamber and the White House Farm Murders by Paul Harrison. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/to?iso=20150718T00&p0=1362&msg=Deviant%3A+Jeremy+Bamber+%26+the+White+House+Farm+Murders&font=serif&swk=1)
Thank you Myster. Endlessly resourceful 8**8:/:
Not long now. Meanwhile we have Glastonbury, women's football world cup (England thru to semis 8@??)(), Wimbledon and the summer sun to keep us occupied. Happy days ?{)(**
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Want a free advance copy to review, Holly? 8((()*/
You need to be a "pro reader of influence" though. The question is... do you qualify? &%+((£
https://jillysheep.wordpress.com/2015/06/26/the-murders-at-white-house-farm-by-carol-ann-lee/ (https://jillysheep.wordpress.com/2015/06/26/the-murders-at-white-house-farm-by-carol-ann-lee/)
https://s2.netgalley.com/tour (https://s2.netgalley.com/tour)
https://s2.netgalley.com/catalog/book/66575 (https://s2.netgalley.com/catalog/book/66575)
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Thank you Myster. Endlessly resourceful 8**8:/:
Not long now. Meanwhile we have Glastonbury, women's football world cup (England thru to semis 8@??)(), Wimbledon and the summer sun to keep us occupied. Happy days ?{)(**
Oh Holl, books schmooks.
Ultimate bliss is the sun shining, my swallows fledging, and getting the hay in. An added bonus is Bamber having a mushy sprout rammed up his bumhole.
*&*%£
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Without a shadow of doubt, these authors are gleaming their information from the two forums so for anyone who has followed the progress of the case here and on blue, I fear nothing new will be learned.
I bet neither of them identify Bamber's co-conspirator however.
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Oh Holl, books schmooks.
Ultimate bliss is the sun shining, my swallows fledging, and getting the hay in. An added bonus is Bamber having a mushy sprout rammed up his bumhole.
*&*%£
Think JB might have a bit more than a mushy sprout rammed in all sorts of orifices!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_sexuality
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Want a free advance copy to review, Holly? 8((()*/
You need to be a "pro reader of influence" though. The question is... do you qualify? &%+((£
https://jillysheep.wordpress.com/2015/06/26/the-murders-at-white-house-farm-by-carol-ann-lee/ (https://jillysheep.wordpress.com/2015/06/26/the-murders-at-white-house-farm-by-carol-ann-lee/)
https://s2.netgalley.com/tour (https://s2.netgalley.com/tour)
https://s2.netgalley.com/catalog/book/66575 (https://s2.netgalley.com/catalog/book/66575)
Oh Myster 8**8:/:
I must surely meet the criteria of "Pro reader of influence" by my membership/posts on the UK Justice forum ?>)()< Anyway I'm prepared to wait. I like the build-up and anticipation; a bit like a lengthy session of foreplay 8(*(
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Without a shadow of doubt, these authors are gleaming their information from the two forums so for anyone who has followed the progress of the case here and on blue, I fear nothing new will be learned.
Based on the review Myster has posted it appears not. As far as I can see the only way in which anything new might be learned would be by commissioning tests and paying for expert testimony. Do authors and/or their backers eg publishers have the money for such? I've no idea of the commercial viability, mark up on books etc?
I bet neither of them identify Bambers co-conspirator however. £4%4£
Have you John?
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Oh Myster 8**8:/:
I must surely meet the criteria of "Pro reader of influence" by my membership/posts on the UK Justice forum ?>)()< Anyway I'm prepared to wait. I like the build-up and anticipation; a bit like a lengthy session of foreplay 8(*(
Reviews are coming out thick and fast, four weeks before the book's official release...
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25686362-the-murders-at-white-house-farm (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25686362-the-murders-at-white-house-farm)
Sometimes you've gotta grab a quickie when freely offered... or live to regret it! 8(8-))
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Have you John?
Yes, and I believe most well informed followers of this case know who that individual was.
Reviews are coming out thick and fast, four weeks before the book's official release...
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25686362-the-murders-at-white-house-farm (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25686362-the-murders-at-white-house-farm)
Sometimes you've gotta grab a quickie when freely offered... or live to regret it! 8(8-))
I wonder will this book be yet another attempt to label the Bamber household dysfunctional when the only real dysfunctional individual was Jeremy Bamber himself?
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Yes, and I believe most well informed followers of this case know who that individual was.
I'm obviously not a well informed follower of the case as I have no idea who you are referring to and would be grateful if you could enlighten me.
I wonder will this book be yet another attempt to label the Bamber household dysfunctional when the only real dysfunctional individual was Jeremy Bamber himself?
What would you call a family created by two 'closed' adoptions in the late 50's and early 60's whereby the adoptive mother suffered serious mental illness as a result of her decision to adopt; both adoptees appear to have suffered over and above the 'normal' developmental issues; one then develops mental illness and the other is convicted of murdering his entire immediate adoptive family including his adopted sister's twin sons. Doesn't sound 'normal' to my mind &%+((£ Especially when compared with the genetic families:
- Boutflours/Eatons - no history of mental illness and/or religious mania?
- Sheila's birth family - no history of mental illness and/or religious mania?
- Jeremy's birth family - no history of criminality, anti-social personality disorder?
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I'm obviously not a well informed follower of the case as I have no idea who you are referring to and would be grateful if you could enlighten me.
It doesn't really take much working out Holly so I will let you ponder the issue.
What would you call a family created by two 'closed' adoptions in the late 50's and early 60's whereby the adoptive mother suffered serious mental illness as a result of her decision to adopt; both adoptees appear to have suffered over and above the 'normal' developmental issues; one then develops mental illness and the other is convicted of murdering his entire immediate adoptive family including his adopted sister's twin sons. Doesn't sound 'normal' to my mind &%+((£ Especially when compared with the genetic families:
- Boutflours/Eatons - no history of mental illness and/or religious mania?
- Sheila's birth family - no history of mental illness and/or religious mania?
- Jeremy's birth family - no history of criminality, anti-social personality disorder?
Unfortunate? When you have children you really don't know how they will turn out, similarly, when you adopt, there are NO guarantees. One can only do ones best and that is what Nevile and June attempted. They taught them right from wrong but both of them rebelled in different ways...bad luck all round imo.
(http://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/bamber_jeremy/bamber_091.jpg)
June Bamber with adopted children Sheila and Jeremy with family pet Crispy in happier times.
(Jeremy was later to kill them all claiming they had worthless lives)
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It doesn't really take much working out Holly so I will let you ponder the issue.
Unfortunate? When you have children you really don't know how they will turn out, similarly, when you adopt, there are NO guarantees. One can only do ones best and that is what Nevile and June attempted. They taught them right from wrong but both of them rebelled in different ways...bad luck all round imo.
(http://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/bamber_jeremy/bamber_091.jpg)
June Bamber with adopted children Sheila and Jeremy with family pet Crispy in happier times.
(Jeremy was later to kill them all claiming they had worthless lives)
John, I agree entirely that there are no guarantees about how children will turn out, BUT biological children, for the MOST part will have much about them which has been handed down from his/her parents. Adopted children don't have those genetics to fall back on so it's possible they could find themselves living with one or both parents whose concepts are innately alien to them.
Whilst it can't be said to be true of ALL adoptive parents, like biological parents we have to look at their own childhood experiences to understand what sort of parents they're likely to become. I think it highly likely that June had the same expectations of HER children as her mother had of her, ie duty, obedience and responsibility to parents, society and God. Whilst her biological children would have probably been genetically predisposed to the concept, her adopted children may have -and I think probably DID- see it as harsh and restrictive. For all that, June was a good, devoted woman -I've never heard a bad word said about her- who, I believe, within her own parameters, limited, but she had no other frame of reference, did the best she knew how. Sadly, I believe that because neither Jeremy nor Sheila conformed to her expectations, it's likely that June became overwhelmed and felt that others would judge her to have failed.
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It doesn't really take much working out Holly so I will let you ponder the issue.
I guess I could come up with all sorts of names but I prefer not to speculate in the absence of any evidence whatsoever.
Unfortunate? When you have children you really don't know how they will turn out, similarly, when you adopt, there are NO guarantees. One can only do ones best and that is what Nevile and June attempted. They taught them right from wrong but both of them rebelled in different ways...bad luck all round imo.
(http://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/bamber_jeremy/bamber_091.jpg)
June Bamber with adopted children Sheila and Jeremy with family pet Crispy in happier times.
(Jeremy was later to kill them all claiming they had worthless lives)
I maintain June's mental illness circa 1959 caused by her decision to adopt had a profound effect on SC and adversely impacted all family members. SC should have been removed from the Bambers' care permanently and as a couple they should have been prevented from adopting again. Instead SC was placed in foster care and later returned to the Bambers who went on to adopt JB.
I'm sure June was a very decent woman on all fronts but that doesn't mean by default she made for a good adoptive mother. CC had concerns about her influence on the twins. In his book he states he forbid June unsupervised contact with the twins. She was later found to have hoodwinked CC's girlfriend and took the twins into a room and made them pray. I have previously posted that studies show adoptive parents and religion are not always a good mix.
http://www.originsnsw.com/mentalhealth/id5.html
"Mc Whinnie also refers to her study about the conditions of religious affiliation for prospective adopters. Her study again shows that other factors are important here, and it should not be assumed that because the adopters are members of a church they would make sympathetic adopters. In fact it would seem important to assess particularly carefully the attitudes of those who hold very rigid religious beliefs since these, if unduly puritanical, might lead them to finding difficulty in accepting illegitimacy and the child born to unmarried parents"
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Based on the review Myster has posted it appears not. As far as I can see the only way in which anything new might be learned would be by commissioning tests and paying for expert testimony.
There is something new... an e-mail from Colin Caffell in CAL's book...
and "With startling evidence never before seen and a dramatic conclusion this, for the first time in print" in PH's.
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There is something new... an e-mail from Colin Caffell in CAL's book...
and "With startling evidence never before seen and a dramatic conclusion this, for the first time in print" in PH's.
Yes I'm sure there will be some new info eg I was unaware June worked undercover in WW2. But I'm very sceptical about anything new from an evidential perspective that is also capable of withstanding scrutiny. PH has made all sorts of claims in the past re his Ripper and Bible John books which amounted to a lot of hot air!
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John, I agree entirely that there are no guarantees about how children will turn out, BUT biological children, for the MOST part will have much about them which has been handed down from his/her parents. Adopted children don't have those genetics to fall back on so it's possible they could find themselves living with one or both parents whose concepts are innately alien to them.
Whilst it can't be said to be true of ALL adoptive parents, like biological parents we have to look at their own childhood experiences to understand what sort of parents they're likely to become. I think it highly likely that June had the same expectations of HER children as her mother had of her, ie duty, obedience and responsibility to parents, society and God. Whilst her biological children would have probably been genetically predisposed to the concept, her adopted children may have -and I think probably DID- see it as harsh and restrictive. For all that, June was a good, devoted woman -I've never heard a bad word said about her- who, I believe, within her own parameters, limited, but she had no other frame of reference, did the best she knew how. Sadly, I believe that because neither Jeremy nor Sheila conformed to her expectations, it's likely that June became overwhelmed and felt that others would judge her to have failed.
An excellent post April, I fully agree with those sentiments.
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Yes I'm sure there will be some new info eg I was unaware June worked undercover in WW2. But I'm very sceptical about anything new from an evidential perspective that is also capable of withstanding scrutiny. PH has made all sorts of claims in the past re his Ripper and Bible John books which amounted to a lot of hot air!
8@??)( @)(++(*
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Another review...
http://reviewsrevues.com/2015/06/25/the-murders-at-white-house-farm-carol-ann-lee-2015-a-murder-they-wrote-review/ (http://reviewsrevues.com/2015/06/25/the-murders-at-white-house-farm-carol-ann-lee-2015-a-murder-they-wrote-review/)
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Holly's view of SJ maybe?... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qwGeyDQzm4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qwGeyDQzm4&feature=youtu.be)
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Holly's view of SJ maybe?... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qwGeyDQzm4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qwGeyDQzm4&feature=youtu.be)
@)(++(*
I don't understand why Holly's chooses to attack Stan. He was an accomplished police officer rising to the rank of DI the hard way.
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@)(++(*
I don't understand why Holly's chooses to attack Stan. He was an accomplished police officer rising to the rank of DI the hard way.
I apologise if my posts regarding DS Jones come over as attacking. I see them more as criticism, especially with regard to his drinking alcohol whilst on duty, in the same way as others criticise DCI Jones.
As far as I am aware all police officers have to undertake 6 months as a PC on the beat including graduates ie there's no fast-track/alternative route to progressing up the ranks?
Did DS Jones reach the rank of DI?
http://www.essex.police.uk/about/obituaries.aspx
Chief Supt George Harris also worked his way up through the ranks. He looks sober and a safe pair of hands imo.
http://www.essex.police.uk/museum/thelaw/n_8306lw.pdf
As far as I can see he signed off the soc/WHF as 4 murders/1 suicide and I feel extremely confident he will ultimately be proved correct.
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I apologise if my posts regarding DS Jones come over as attacking. I see them more as criticism, especially with regard to his drinking alcohol whilst on duty, in the same way as others criticise DCI Jones.
As far as I am aware all police officers have to undertake 6 months as a PC on the beat including graduates ie there's no fast-track/alternative route to progressing up the ranks?
Did DS Jones reach the rank of DI?
http://www.essex.police.uk/about/obituaries.aspx
Chief Supt George Harris also worked his way up through the ranks. He looks sober and a safe pair of hands imo.
http://www.essex.police.uk/museum/thelaw/n_8306lw.pdf
As far as I can see he signed off the soc/WHF as 4 murders/1 suicide and I feel extremely confident he will ultimately be proved correct.
All cops have to work their way up through the ranks unlike the military services where one can fast track to Lieutenant. When it comes to detecting some crimes however, good old Dixon of Dock Green style is preferable to career police who only look up.
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Holly's view of SJ maybe?... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qwGeyDQzm4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qwGeyDQzm4&feature=youtu.be)
@)(++(*
Maybe 8(0(*
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Holly's view of SJ maybe?... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qwGeyDQzm4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qwGeyDQzm4&feature=youtu.be)
When NB likened the police at Witham to Dad's Army I wonder if he had anyone specific in mind &%+((£
Excerpt from RB's WS:
"he (NB) commented that if they were like the police at Witham they were no more good than Dad's Army":
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1651
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1652
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When NB likened the police at Witham to Dad's Army I wonder if he had anyone specific in mind &%+((£
Excerpt from RB's WS:
"he (NB) commented that if they were like the police at Witham they were no more good than Dad's Army":
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1651 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1651)
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1652 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1652)
It does make you think who NB had dealings with at Witham, whether regarding his magisterial work or previous death threats, but names aren't documented as far as I know.
If you were banned ages ago, how come you can still see statements over there? Why not do an abs and post the above, because other than blues who've converted, no-one else here including myself can see them.
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It does make you think who NB had dealings with at Witham, whether regarding his magisterial work or previous death threats, but names aren't documented as far as I know.
If you were banned ages ago, how come you can still see statements over there? Why not do an abs and post the above, because other than blues who've converted, no-one else here including myself can see them.
I copied a post from the Nun/Blue before NGB closed the iron curtains. Some posters remain loyal to the Nun and I will see what I can do ?>)()<
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Holl, presupposing the 2 new books tell us what we already know, will you still tilt at lost windmills?
Will you ever explain why Bamber planned the murders?
Will you explain why the gun was free of prints?
Will you explain how Sheila was free of blood splatter on her legs?
I could go on, but I can't be arsed. If Sheila fought with Ralph in the kitchen, she would have been a mess. Covered in blood. And bruises. And gun residue.
I totally rest my case.
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If bamber is so guilty why the campaign for years for his innocence...wouldn't they have given upby now
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Holl, presupposing the 2 new books tell us what we already know, will you still tilt at lost windmills?
Will you ever explain why Bamber planned the murders?
Will you explain why the gun was free of prints?
Will you explain how Sheila was free of blood splatter on her legs?
I could go on, but I can't be arsed. If Sheila fought with Ralph in the kitchen, she would have been a mess. Covered in blood. And bruises. And gun residue.
I totally rest my case.
Can you explain please how senior police officers at the soc, along with the police surgeon, all with years of experience all missed the obvious if it's as straight forward as you believe?
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If bamber is so guilty why the campaign for years for his innocence...wouldn't they have given upby now
The only person in the world who knows for sure whether or not JB is guilty is JB. I'm prepared to accept he might be guilty as charged. But what I'm not prepared to accept is that it's obvious he's guilty, there's no risk of a MoJ, and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.
Sadly the case has attracted some oddballs with dodgy pasts eg Michael Teskowski and bogus lawyer Giovanni DeStefano, now behind bars, along with emotionally unstable women. This obviously hasn't helped JB's case.
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Btw I'm not one of the emotionally unstable women 8(0(* Although I'm sure some might disagree!
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Can you explain please how senior police officers at the soc, along with the police surgeon, all with years of experience all missed the obvious if it's as straight forward as you believe?
Yes I can, Holl, thanks for asking - and a LOT more convincingly than you can explain why there is sweet Felicity Arkwright of evidence on Sheila and the gun! 8(0(*
(And that's why Bamber is eating his Sunday spam fritter with Mick Philpott's hand on his leg. 8((()*/ )
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The only person in the world who knows for sure whether or not JB is guilty is JB. I'm prepared to accept he might be guilty as charged. But what I'm not prepared to accept is that it's obvious he's guilty, there's no risk of a MoJ, and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.
Sadly the case has attracted some oddballs with dodgy pasts eg Michael Teskowski and bogus lawyer Giovanni DeStefano, now behind bars, along with emotionally unstable women. This obviously hasn't helped JB's case.
Can you name any of these emotionally unstable women Holly? Jeremy spoke to me about some of his female friends and many were academics. I know a couple of them including Aunt Agatha and I would never describe them as emotionally unstable. Maybe you are party to information that I am not even though you never spoken to or met Jeremy.
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Can you explain please how senior police officers at the soc, along with the police surgeon, all with years of experience all missed the obvious if it's as straight forward as you believe?
The police surgeon had only the autopsy information and a little background information at his disposal in 1985 whereas the investigating officer had it all. The argument that a doctor should have known better simply doesn't hold water.
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The only person in the world who knows for sure whether or not JB is guilty is JB. I'm prepared to accept he might be guilty as charged. But what I'm not prepared to accept is that it's obvious he's guilty, there's no risk of a MoJ, and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.
Sadly the case has attracted some oddballs with dodgy pasts eg Michael Teskowski and bogus lawyer Giovanni DeStefano, now behind bars, along with emotionally unstable women. This obviously hasn't helped JB's case.
The evidence is all there which convicted Jeremy Bamber, the chances of a moj having occurred are extremely low IMHO.
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Can you name any of these emotionally unstable women Holly? Jeremy spoke to me about some of his female friends and many were academics. I know a couple of them including Aunt Agatha and I would never describe them as emotionally unstable. Maybe you are party to information that I am not even though you never spoken to or met Jeremy.
Hello Daisy lovely to see you posting again ?{)(**
Yes there was a Sabina Butt mentioned in Roger Wilkes' book along with others can't recall their names now but its all in Roger Wilkes' book. I found it quite amusing but I'm sure it wasn't for JB. It involved an intimate exchange of letters ending up in the tabloids amongst other things. Plus I think a phantom pregnancy? Have you read Wilkes? If not I would recommend.
No I've never met or spoken with JB. My contact with JB has been limited to a handful of letters over a long time period.
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Yes I can, Holl, thanks for asking - and a LOT more convincingly than you can explain why there is sweet Felicity Arkwright of evidence on Sheila and the gun! 8(0(*
(And that's why Bamber is eating his Sunday spam fritter with Mick Philpott's hand on his leg. 8((()*/ )
Puglove in less than 2 weeks time PH's book will be available for public consumption. Apparently he is going to show anyone who cares to read his book that JB is guilty 100% and put the case to bed once and for all! Apparently he has the 'smoking gun'. You will then be able to humiliate and ridicule me like never before 8)><(
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Puglove in less than 2 weeks time PH's book will be available for public consumption. Apparently he is going to show anyone who cares to read his book that JB is guilty 100% and put the case to bed once and for all! Apparently he has the 'smoking gun'. You will then be able to humiliate and ridicule me like never before 8)><(
If I wanted bullshit all I need do is walk out the back door into the field. @)(++(*
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The police surgeon had only the autopsy information and a little background information at his disposal in 1985 whereas the investigating officer had it all. The argument that a doctor should have known better simply doesn't hold water.
The police surgeon, Dr Ian Craig, witnessed all victims in situ and obviously observed the soc too. A police surgeon is trained and experienced in dealing with such victims/soc are they not? Chief Supt Harris accompanied Dr Craig when he certified the deaths at soc. Here we have a highly trained and experienced police officer and a highly trained and experienced medical professional. Am I going to run with DS Jones, who according to the pathologist could offer nothing of evidential value, over Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris? No I am not. We don't have to all share the same views do we? It makes no difference what we think, say or do the only people capable of changing JB's fate are three appeal court judges who will require substantial NEW evidence.
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The police surgeon, Dr Ian Craig, witnessed all victims in situ and obviously observed the soc too. A police surgeon is trained and experienced in dealing with such victims/soc are they not? Chief Supt Harris accompanied Dr Craig when he certified the deaths at soc. Here we have a highly trained and experienced police officer and a highly trained and experienced medical professional. Am I going to run with DS Jones, who according to the pathologist could offer nothing of evidential value, over Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris? No I am not. We don't have to all share the same views do we? It makes no difference what we think, say or do the only people capable of changing JB's fate are three appeal court judges who will require substantial NEW evidence.
Did those two gentlemen you mentioned spend any time with the killer and his lover? NO
Did Stan Jones spend any time with the killer and his lover? YES
QED
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Did those two gentlemen you mentioned spend any time with the killer and his lover? NO
Did Stan Jones spend any time with the killer and his lover? YES
QED
As evidenced by the video Adam posted, DS Jones wan't able to provide anything of evidential value. It was all based on JB's facial expressions, a supposed chuckle, his attitude during interviews etc, etc. He even said he knew JB was guilty but in the next breath said he had to pray something turned up to prove him right. In other words he thought he was guilty but had nothing concrete to go on until of course he secured JM's testimony and the silencer turned up!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&feature=youtu.be&t=26m29s
Dr Vanezis' report confirms the same:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=740
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As evidenced by the video Adam posted, DS Jones wan't able to provide anything of evidential value. It was all based on JB's facial expressions, a supposed chuckle, his attitude during interviews etc, etc. He even said he knew JB was guilty but in the next breath said he had to pray something turned up to prove him right. In other words he thought he was guilty but had nothing concrete to go on until of course he secured JM's testimony and the silencer turned up!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&feature=youtu.be&t=26m29s
Dr Vanezis' report confirms the same:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=740
That's what separates a good copper from a Muppet. Jones knew from day 1 that all was not as it should have been. Excellent police work on his behalf.
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Hello Daisy lovely to see you posting again ?{)(**
Yes there was a Sabina Butt mentioned in Roger Wilkes' book along with others can't recall their names now but its all in Roger Wilkes' book. I found it quite amusing but I'm sure it wasn't for JB. It involved an intimate exchange of letters ending up in the tabloids amongst other things. Plus I think a phantom pregnancy? Have you read Wilkes? If not I would recommend.
No I've never met or spoken with JB. My contact with JB has been limited to a handful of letters over a long time period.
Thank you Holly.
I thought you were referring to recent women. No I haven't read Roger's book. If I didn't know Jeremy then I would read it but I think it is outdated now. I have hundreds of documents which have superceded anything in his book so it doesn't really interest me. It is no secret that Jeremy has always had an eye for the ladies and this hasn't changed over the years. He is certainly a charismatic man and it amazes me that he is never depressed or miserable. It was difficult to imagine he was speaking to me from a prison. This may be his way of coping and having hope or of course it could be for another reason.
I have read Colin's book which didn't so much focus on the murders but on his relationship with the family. I found it quite upsetting, especially when I saw the pictures the twins had drawn. A psychologist said they had been deeply disturbed. I also couldn't understand how Jeremy could have acted with total disrespect at the funerals.
As you say, the only person who truly knows if he is innocent is Jeremy himself and who are we to judge one way or the other when none of us were present on that evening.
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That's what separates a good copper from a Muppet. Jones knew from day 1 that all was not as it should have been. Excellent police work on his behalf.
Gut instinct is a good starting point but the danger is that officers became convinced they are right based on subjective aspects eg JB's attitude and behaviour and then go about fabricating evidence to get a conviction.
I posted this earlier today where DS Jones says he knew JB was guilty of the murders but then says he had to pray something would turn up to prove him right. Very worrying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&feature=youtu.be&t=26m29s
If DS Jones was a an excellent officer why didn't he rise about the rank of Sargent?
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http://extracts.panmacmillan.com/extract?isbn=9780283072222&utm_source=panmacmillan.com The Murders at White House Farm Book Page
The Murders at White House Farm
Carol Ann Lee | 9 minutes reading time
Prologue
Evening sunlight slanted across the countryside in a blaze of copper as the Volkswagen camper van rattled along the road to Tollesbury, village ‘of plough and sail’, whose inhabitants had long relied on harvests from land and sea. Weatherboard houses and modern bungalows disappeared as fields unfurled on every horizon; to the south was the Blackwater estuary, a wilderness of salt marshes, tidal mudflats and islands. It was an hour’s drive from London, yet a world away.
The six-year-old twins fidgeted in the back of the van, aware that the journey was almost over. From the driver’s seat, their father glanced at them anxiously through the mirror. The boys looked almost identical, with their delicate faces, slim limbs and blond hair, but there was tension in Daniel’s expression. Nicholas, too, was quieter than usual. In the front passenger seat their mother sat silently, her grey-blue eyes impassive.
Where the road twisted sharply to the left, Pages Lane appeared on the right. A postbox stood like a scarlet sentinel against the uncut field to one side of the lane; on the other was a hedgerow stippled with creamy blossom, leading to a neat row of four farm cottages. The van rumbled down the lane, passing the cottages and turning right at a fork in the track, where a tall hedge on the left coiled past black timbered barns to a large yard flanked by outbuildings. The van pulled in, close to the back door of a handsome Georgian farmhouse. Somewhere within, inscribed on a beam under the eaves, was the date ‘1820’.
White House Farm, on the glittering seaward reaches of Tolleshunt D’Arcy, was the hub of a thriving business covering hundreds of acres, yet the building itself had a cloistered air. Hidden by trees and set in large gardens, the elegant grey frontage could only be glimpsed by walkers from the creek end of the lane.
Before the week was out, its timeless seclusion would be gone forever.
The crime about to take place in the Essex countryside would dominate the headlines for weeks to come. Until then, the main news stories included the success of Live Aid, a sixteen-hour music marathon that raised millions for starving Ethiopians and secured the biggest global audience in television history; Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and her husband Dennis buying a Barratt Homes house in south London; the discovery that the small pimple removed from President Ronald Reagan’s nose was cancerous; the dropping of charges of riot and unlawful assembly against seventy-nine miners arrested when 10,000 pickets converged on Orgreave coking plant; and twenty-seven-year-old Madonna topping the charts for the first time with ‘Into The Groove’ from the film Desperately Seeking Susan.
In ‘Aids Threatens to Spread Rapidly’, on 6 August 1985, The Times drew attention to the latest information about the aggressive new virus. The government’s chief medical advisers announced that ‘heterosexuals are also at risk from the disease normally associated with homosexuals’ and predicted over 2,000 cases within two years, mostly in London. An editorial in the same paper asked: ‘Can Youth Cope With Our Age?’, warning that in a society obsessed by immediate gratification, young adults were being influenced ‘more by their peers than their parents, by present opportunity more than past tradition’. While older people yearned for the principled 1940s, their children faced ‘the threat of nuclear war, the prospect of mass unemployment, a world in which there are many more sticks than carrots’. Positive responses such as CND and Live Aid were undermined by ‘the implosion of ambition’ and the ‘radical rejection of the diminished world’ of parents and grandparents.
Nevill and June Bamber understood only too well the conflicts highlighted by the editorial. Married in 1949 and unable to conceive naturally, they had adopted two babies: a daughter, Sheila Jean, in 1958, and a son, Jeremy Nevill, in 1961. Ever since, they had striven to instil the values of the pre-war world into their children.
On Sunday, 4 August 1985, Nevill Bamber attended the early church service at Tolleshunt Major. The Frosts, whom he had known for years, caught up with him afterwards. ‘He seemed his normal self,’ Joan Frost recalled. ‘I would describe the Bambers as a loving couple, fond of both their children, devoted to their grandchildren, very caring for the community, generous financially and [with] time for others.’
June Bamber was at the 10.30am service in Tolleshunt D’Arcy, where she had been a churchwarden since Easter. She read the lesson and waited outside the church for Nevill after the service. His familiar blue pickup truck soon appeared and Eric Turner, the elderly canon, greeted him as he strode across the gravel. Rev. Bernard Robson heard Nevill remark that he and June were looking forward to having their daughter Sheila and her six-year-old twins Daniel and Nicholas stay for the week. Their former son-in-law, Colin Caffell, was driving them from London.
Until a few months earlier, the twins had lived primarily with their mother, although Colin had joint custody and saw them every week. But in March 1985, Sheila was diagnosed with schizophrenia and admitted to St Andrew’s Hospital, a private psychiatric clinic in Northampton. June Bamber had twice received treatment there herself and shared a psychiatrist with her daughter, who had suffered a nervous breakdown three years before. Nicholas and Daniel moved in with their father and remained living with him after Sheila was discharged.
Despite their divorce, Sheila and Colin were on good terms; he had invited her to his housewarming party in Kilburn the night before the visit. She arrived early to help him tidy up and prepare food, explaining how unhappy she was with the treatment her parents had chosen, which involved monthly injections of an anti-psychotic drug whose side effects included a debilitating lethargy. When Colin offered to speak to Nevill and June on her behalf, Sheila readily agreed.
During the party she was quiet. Her brother Jeremy and his girlfriend Julie Mugford were there, along with Colin’s partner, Heather. Sheila complimented Julie on her make-up and chatted to a few people, but seemed distracted. Jeremy asked his sister several times if she was okay. ‘Sheila appeared vacant and confused and said she was very tired,’ he later told detectives. Colin confirmed: ‘Sheila just sat there looking detached. She continuously kept staring out of the window.’
Shortly before midnight, Sheila asked Colin to take her home. Because he had been drinking he summoned her brother, who hadn’t touched alcohol. Sheila seemed to shrink from the idea, but Jeremy and Julie saw her safely home, then returned to the party. They left in the early hours for the small village of Goldhanger, where Jeremy lived in a cottage three miles from White House Farm.
On Sunday morning the twins were fretful about the visit to their grandparents. Much as they loved Granny Bamber, they didn’t like how she made them pray with her so often. Colin had already promised Sheila he would speak to his former in-laws about her medical care; now he told his sons that he would ask their grandmother not to be so strict about prayers. He also reassured Daniel, who had recently become vegetarian, that he would have a word about mealtimes.
At half-past three, the twins climbed into the camper van, clutching the plastic Care Bears that accompanied them everywhere. Colin drove the short distance to Morshead Road in Maida Vale, where Sheila lived at the immediate end of an imposing Edwardian building of thirteen red brick apartments. She settled in the camper van’s front seat. Once they were out of London and onto the A12, it was a fairly straight run to Tolleshunt D’Arcy. The sun emerged from a dense ridge of cloud as Colin attempted to make conversation with his ex-wife, but Sheila was lost in her own thoughts. Later he recalled that she ‘never spoke’ during the two-and-a-half-hour journey and seemed ‘quiet and inward’ but ‘smiling and content’.
In contrast, the twins kept up a steady stream of chatter about the party, school friends and a forthcoming holiday to Norway with their father. But as the van lumbered closer to Tolleshunt D’Arcy, Daniel began to grow agitated. Above the stuttering din of the Volkswagen engine, he shouted, ‘You will speak to Granny about the prayers and everything, won’t you, Daddy?’ Colin nodded, calling back that Mummy would make sure everything was fine. He glanced at Sheila, who stared at the road ahead, unresponsive. A knot of unease settled in his stomach.
As they reached the village, his disquiet increased. He couldn’t fathom why, nor could he think of an excuse for heading back to London. Instead, he followed the road where it led to Pages Lane, with its postbox and sign that read: ‘Private Road: White House Farm and Wycke Farm Only.’
At Bourtree Cottage, Julie Mugford stood looking at the ladies’ burgundy bicycle resting on its stand: it had a ‘sit-up-and-beg’ frame, white saddle and metal bell. When she had asked Jeremy about it that morning, he told her that it belonged to his mother. ‘He had got it so I could use it,’ Julie recalled. ‘I had not previously asked him to get me a bike, although I think I might have suggested it might be handy sometime the previous summer.’
Julie carried her belongings out to the silver Vauxhall Astra. As Jeremy emerged from the cottage, she frowned in disapproval at his hair, dyed the day before. She had bought him a brown shade from Boots in Colchester to hide ginger streaks from a previous home tinting, which looked odd against his naturally light brown hair, but the result was black as coal. She told him it looked like a wig. Jeremy shrugged off her criticism, unperturbed.
‘Jeremy took me to Chelmsford railway station at about 7pm on Sunday, 4th August 1985 to catch the 7.50pm train to London,’ Julie explained four days later. Studying for an honours degree in education at Goldsmith’s College, she lived in Lewisham, but spent holidays and most weekends with Jeremy in Goldhanger.
Julie hadn’t seen June or Nevill for over a month. She was aware that Sheila was due at the farm that Sunday, and the next time she heard from Jeremy was ‘by telephone at 9.50pm on Tuesday, 6th August 1985 . . .’
After that, nothing would ever be the same again.
Red roses bloomed on the trellis by the back door of White House Farm. June, a keen nature lover, had scattered bread on the bird table in the kitchen yard and filled the birdbath.
‘We arrived there about 6.45pm,’ Colin told the police in a miasma of grief and disbelief four days later. ‘I stayed with the boys, Sheila and the Bambers until about 8.30pm.’ The twins gravitated to their father’s side as soon as they were out of the van. Daniel and Nicholas were not naturally clingy and the knot of unease in Colin’s gut tightened as they entered the farmhouse. He nudged the boys through the scullery and into the kitchen. Every surface was crammed, from the Children’s Society collecting boxes on the worktop to the magazine rack overflowing with the Sunday Times and Farming News. A Welsh dresser took pride of place, crowded with ornaments, postcards, books and decorative plates, one bearing the solemn homily, ‘A Place for Everything and Everything in its Place’.
June made hot drinks and poured juice into the twins’ orange beakers. Crispy, an irascible shih-tzu known as ‘the Pest’, got under everyone’s feet until he was shooed into his basket beside the Aga. After pleasantries had been exchanged, Colin broached the subject of prayers. Nevill pulled up his favourite Windsor chair next to the mantelpiece to listen. June bristled slightly, but let Colin talk. Nevill reacted with customary humour to the news that Daniel was now vegetarian; wagging a finger, he warned his grandson he would never grow up big and strong if he didn’t eat his meat, but tempered his words with a smile.
The one issue Colin did not raise was Sheila’s medical treatment. His priority was the welfare of the twins and he hoped the Bambers would respect his entreaties if he left it there. Sensing that Sheila was upset by his lack of support, he avoided meeting her gaze. Colin stayed to supper at June and Nevill’s request, but Sheila had retreated into her own world: ‘Sheila was very quiet and appeared to be very vacant.’ After the meal he stood to leave and once more felt the weight of her gloom as she cast him a disappointed look.
It was the twins’ reaction to his departure that troubled him most. Daniel and Nicholas fell against him, clutching his clothes and burying tearful faces into his neck as he scooped them up. Their inexplicable distress was overwhelming: ‘It would be difficult to express how tightly they hugged me to say goodbye. They had never acted like this before.’ Gently, he unfastened their grip.
A cool breeze stirred the leaves of the shrubbery as Colin put the Volkswagen into gear. He waved vigorously before turning into the lane, and in his mirror caught a last, fleeting glimpse of the family watching from the darkened garden. In a moment he was at the end of the track and looking back saw only the black, gathered trees.
In the months to come, he went over that night again and again, remembering every detail. He became convinced that his sons had experienced some sort of premonition, as the memory of that final evening, together with a series of deeply disturbing drawings by Daniel, led him to conclude that there was ‘more to all this than I could logically explain’ and that, ‘on some level, they knew they were going to die’.
I'm confused about the section in bold above. I'm taking it to mean that SC suffered a breakdown in 1982 whereas I believe it was 1983? June was admitted to St Andrews in 1959 and 1982 and Sheila was admitted in 1983 and 1985.
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The above sounds remarkably like Steve_uk. Poor Lookout will be broken hearted - she had fallen in love with Steve 8)><( I think she was torn between Mike's earthiness and foul-mouthed tirades, and Steve's eloquence.
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The above sounds remarkably like Steve_uk. Poor Lookout will be broken hearted - she had fallen in love with Steve 8)><( I think she was torn between Mike's earthiness and foul-mouthed tirades, and Steve's eloquence.
Ho ho!! Poor Steve - what a thought. 8)><(
Having a (very) quick squiz at this book, it certainly seems to be incredibly well researched. I didn't know that Sheila's first Shih Tzu was Sweepy, a present for her 10th birthday. Or the heart-breaking name of her home before the adoption - The Holy Innocents Sunnyside Nursery. But I love that Tussauds' deemed Bamber "too forgettable" to make a waxwork of him!
I'll be very interested to read Colin's message.
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Ho ho!! Poor Steve - what a thought. 8)><(
Having a (very) quick squiz at this book, it certainly seems to be incredibly well researched. I didn't know that Sheila's first Shih Tzu was Sweepy, a present for her 10th birthday. Or the heart-breaking name of her home before the adoption - The Holy Innocents Sunnyside Nursery. But I love that Tussauds' deemed Bamber "too forgettable" to make a waxwork of him!
I'll be very interested to read Colin's message.
I should add that, in his letters to C.A.L., Bamber sounds his usual ignorant, arrogant, deluded self.
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Ho ho!! Poor Steve - what a thought. 8)><(
Having a (very) quick squiz at this book, it certainly seems to be incredibly well researched. I didn't know that Sheila's first Shih Tzu was Sweepy, a present for her 10th birthday. Or the heart-breaking name of her home before the adoption - The Holy Innocents Sunnyside Nursery. But I love that Tussauds' deemed Bamber "too forgettable" to make a waxwork of him!
I'll be very interested to read Colin's message.
Where did all that lot come from!!!? *%87 I must have welled-up and missed it through worrying about Reagan's cancerous pimple. 8(8-))
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Where did all that lot come from!!!? *%87 I must have welled-up and missed it through worrying about Reagan's cancerous pimple. 8(8-))
I just googled and a big lump appeared - the layout of the book, preface, prologue, the first few chapters and a list of references for each chapter. And a quotation from To Kill A Mockingbird...."People generally see what they look for, and hear what they listen for" which, I think, possibly answers Holl's question as to why so many people were initially conned by Bamber.
(I don't know what I did, but if a plum like me can find it, a diabolical mastermind like you should have no trouble!)
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I'm confused about the section in bold above. I'm taking it to mean that SC suffered a breakdown in 1982 whereas I believe it was 1983? June was admitted to St Andrews in 1959 and 1982 and Sheila was admitted in 1983 and 1985.
Sheila was admitted to St. Andrews on the 2nd August 1983, and discharged on the 10th September having been diagnosed for the first time with schizophrenia. The next admission following a second breakdown at Moreshead Mansions was on the 3rd March 1985, after which she was released around three weeks later on the 29th March, having responded well to Haloperidol treatment, although as we know, this made her lithargic.
This was according to Wilkes and Powell.
Bet you can't wait (http://i.imgur.com/8UAjLS2.gif) to get your analytical (http://i.imgur.com/2LzAWsi.gif) into these (http://i.imgur.com/8r1zSmF.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/8r1zSmF.gif) weighty tomes?
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I just googled and a big lump appeared - the layout of the book, preface, prologue, the first few chapters and a list of references for each chapter. And a quotation from To Kill A Mockingbird...."People generally see what they look for, and hear what they listen for" which, I think, possibly answers Holl's question as to why so many people were initially conned by Bamber.
(I don't know what I did, but if a plum like me can find it, a diabolical mastermind like you should have no trouble!)
It looks like C.A.L's book will be definitive....I wonder how MD's will measure up?
(Hopefully about four and a half inches, to cure my wobble.)
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It looks like C.A.L's book will be definitive....I wonder how MD's will measure up?
(Hopefully about four and a half inches, to cure my wobble.)
Found the link...
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rj14BwAAQBAJ&pg=PP255&lpg=PP255&dq=The+Murders+at+White+House+Farm+read&source=bl&ots=h7KmLHRnPl&sig=Mq-fJTjV015NHZ2BOWq7GlxUSEY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pz2gVba6EeXW7QaXzYjADg&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=The%20Murders%20at%20White%20House%20Farm%20read&f=false (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rj14BwAAQBAJ&pg=PP255&lpg=PP255&dq=The+Murders+at+White+House+Farm+read&source=bl&ots=h7KmLHRnPl&sig=Mq-fJTjV015NHZ2BOWq7GlxUSEY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pz2gVba6EeXW7QaXzYjADg&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=The%20Murders%20at%20White%20House%20Farm%20read&f=false)
Looks like the WHF plans have been taken from yours truly's. 8((()*/
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Found the link...
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rj14BwAAQBAJ&pg=PP255&lpg=PP255&dq=The+Murders+at+White+House+Farm+read&source=bl&ots=h7KmLHRnPl&sig=Mq-fJTjV015NHZ2BOWq7GlxUSEY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pz2gVba6EeXW7QaXzYjADg&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=The%20Murders%20at%20White%20House%20Farm%20read&f=false (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rj14BwAAQBAJ&pg=PP255&lpg=PP255&dq=The+Murders+at+White+House+Farm+read&source=bl&ots=h7KmLHRnPl&sig=Mq-fJTjV015NHZ2BOWq7GlxUSEY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pz2gVba6EeXW7QaXzYjADg&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=The%20Murders%20at%20White%20House%20Farm%20read&f=false)
Looks like the WHF plans have been taken from yours truly's. 8((()*/
Ta Dah!! God, you're good!! 8**8:/:
You only get a few goes though, till you "reach your limit." ?8)@)-)
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Ta Dah!! God, you're good!! 8**8:/:
You only get a few goes though, till you "reach your limit." ?8)@)-)
More easier to follow extracts here... http://www.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/reader/9780283072222?fromssl=true (http://www.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/reader/9780283072222?fromssl=true)
Lucky pugsy! 8((()*/ ... you'll have the whole book for FREE before the 30th... HOPEFULLY! ?{)(**
You reading, Carol? 8(0(*
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Ho ho!! Poor Steve - what a thought. 8)><(
Having a (very) quick squiz at this book, it certainly seems to be incredibly well researched. I didn't know that Sheila's first Shih Tzu was Sweepy, a present for her 10th birthday. Or the heart-breaking name of her home before the adoption - The Holy Innocents Sunnyside Nursery. But I love that Tussauds' deemed Bamber "too forgettable" to make a waxwork of him!
I'll be very interested to read Colin's message.
Good find puglove 8((()*/ I Googled some of the words in your post above and hey presto....
Lots of new info re previous occupants of WHF along with opinions and views from those that knew June, NB, SC and JB but so far I haven't read anything new or old from an evidential perspective. In fact CAL states she is not going to touch on that as it would require an entire book in itself! Can CAL then claim the book is definitive?
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I just googled and a big lump appeared - the layout of the book, preface, prologue, the first few chapters and a list of references for each chapter. And a quotation from To Kill A Mockingbird...."People generally see what they look for, and hear what they listen for" which, I think, possibly answers Holl's question as to why so many people were initially conned by Bamber.
(I don't know what I did, but if a plum like me can find it, a diabolical mastermind like you should have no trouble!)
True. But police officers, and others eg police surgeons and pathologists, are trained to think critically/independently and not to be led by witnesses at soc? They are frequently called to such scenes: domestic violence, child abuse, disputes turned violent between neighbours, rape. All these scenarios usually involve one witness/victim blaming the other witness/victim.
Those who believe JB guilty must by definition disbelieve the phone call. They porn scorn on the idea that NB would call JB. Can you honestly imagine multiple police officers, from various ranks, and others, accepting the phone call at face value and being totally oblivious to what was staring them in the face ie that SC was without signs of a struggle or blood beyond her own injuries (or certainly that's what the photos seem to indicate) having observed the state of poor NB in the kitchen?
I've noted a lot of input in CAL's book from the Carr family who don't have a good word to say about JB. It seems they might have been influenced from day 1; Jim Carr was effectively employed by RB. People often aren't good at thinking critically and independently unless they have been trained and/or encouraged to do so. Hence we have "popular delusions" and "the madness of crowds". A current example is the small Chinese investor encouraged to invest their life savings into the China stock-market by the government.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=580.msg17683#msg17683
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Sheila was admitted to St. Andrews on the 2nd August 1983, and discharged on the 10th September having been diagnosed for the first time with schizophrenia. The next admission following a second breakdown at Moreshead Mansions was on the 3rd March 1985, after which she was released around three weeks later on the 29th March, having responded well to Haloperidol treatment, although as we know, this made her lithargic.
This was according to Wilkes and Powell.
Bet you can't wait (http://i.imgur.com/8UAjLS2.gif) to get your analytical (http://i.imgur.com/2LzAWsi.gif) into these (http://i.imgur.com/8r1zSmF.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/8r1zSmF.gif) weighty tomes?
Thank you 8((()*/ That's what I thought. So that appears to be an error then on CAL's part.
I was interested to learn that June required psychiatric treatment in 1955. How on earth she was approved to adopt SC in 1957/8 and JB in 1961 having required further psychiatric treatment in 1959 I honestly don't know. It simply beggars belief.
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Found the link...
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rj14BwAAQBAJ&pg=PP255&lpg=PP255&dq=The+Murders+at+White+House+Farm+read&source=bl&ots=h7KmLHRnPl&sig=Mq-fJTjV015NHZ2BOWq7GlxUSEY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pz2gVba6EeXW7QaXzYjADg&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=The%20Murders%20at%20White%20House%20Farm%20read&f=false (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rj14BwAAQBAJ&pg=PP255&lpg=PP255&dq=The+Murders+at+White+House+Farm+read&source=bl&ots=h7KmLHRnPl&sig=Mq-fJTjV015NHZ2BOWq7GlxUSEY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pz2gVba6EeXW7QaXzYjADg&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=The%20Murders%20at%20White%20House%20Farm%20read&f=false)
Looks like the WHF plans have been taken from yours truly's. 8((()*/
Looks like a lot of the content has been gleaned from the forums! &%+((£
Patti's research into SC's birth family and the nursery pre adoption and my introduction of the 'Primal Wound'! &%+((£
CAL if you're reading we trust you'll be getting the drinks in 8((()*/
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Gut instinct is a good starting point but the danger is that officers became convinced they are right based on subjective aspects eg JB's attitude and behaviour and then go about fabricating evidence to get a conviction.
I posted this earlier today where DS Jones says he knew JB was guilty of the murders but then says he had to pray something would turn up to prove him right. Very worrying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&feature=youtu.be&t=26m29s
If DS Jones was a an excellent officer why didn't he rise about the rank of Sargent?
Lots of good police officers don't wish to end up as managers so refuse promotion, its that simple.
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Looks like a lot of the content has been gleaned from the forums! &%+((£
Nothing new there then!
Little of anything of significance relative to the murders will be found in either book but if you like reading triviality do carry on.
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True. But police officers, and others eg police surgeons and pathologists, are trained to think critically/independently and not to be led by witnesses at soc? They are frequently called to such scenes: domestic violence, child abuse, disputes turned violent between neighbours, rape. All these scenarios usually involve one witness/victim blaming the other witness/victim.
Those who believe JB guilty must by definition disbelieve the phone call. They porn scorn on the idea that NB would call JB. Can you honestly imagine multiple police officers, from various ranks, and others, accepting the phone call at face value and being totally oblivious to what was staring them in the face ie that SC was without signs of a struggle or blood beyond her own injuries (or certainly that's what the photos seem to indicate) having observed the state of poor NB in the kitchen?
I've noted a lot of input in CAL's book from the Carr family who don't have a good word to say about JB. It seems they might have been influenced from day 1; Jim Carr was effectively employed by RB. People often aren't good at thinking critically and independently unless they have been trained and/or encouraged to do so. Hence we have "popular delusions" and "the madness of crowds". A current example is the small Chinese investor encouraged to invest their life savings into the China stock-market by the government.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=580.msg17683#msg17683
Have you been reading about John "Goldfinger" Palmer, Holl? Essex police and TWO ambulance crews decided that he had died of natural causes - he'd been shot six times!!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ5r3oNFVeE
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More easier to follow extracts here... http://www.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/reader/9780283072222?fromssl=true (http://www.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/reader/9780283072222?fromssl=true)
Lucky pugsy! 8((()*/ ... you'll have the whole book for FREE before the 30th... HOPEFULLY! ?{)(**
You reading, Carol? 8(0(*
I'm just getting something about my browser not being supported, whatever that means. 8(8-))
I'll probably buy the book, but I'm not really that fussed to trawl through reams of details to reach a foregone conclusion. I don't think that Bamber deserves the oxygen, anymore than all the other child murderers. I just want to read Colin's message.
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Nothing new there then!
Little of anything of significance relative to the murders will be found in either book but if you like reading triviality do carry on.
I think you're probably right, John. I wonder if, when I'm having a cheeky google, I'll stumble across "Mason Doyle's" effort? And his "smoking gun"?
Or I just might paint the back door. Then watch it dry. ?>)()<
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I'm just getting something about my browser not being supported, whatever that means. 8(8-))
I'll probably buy the book, but I'm not really that fussed to trawl through reams of details to reach a foregone conclusion. I don't think that Bamber deserves the oxygen, anymore than all the other child murderers. I just want to read Colin's message.
I use Firefox browser, and it reads OK on that, more like a book, but it's exactly the same text/content that you showed me and have already read... just a bit easier on the eye with sepia-toned option, that's all. They'll not give too much away, just a taster!
You buying the book or e-pub?
If you want the cheaper e-pub version (£7.47), try downloading the free "Kindle Reading App" which acts like a virtual Kindle on your laptop or PC.
You have to enter your e-mail address first, and if I remember they also give you one or two free classics such as Treasure Island and Pride & Prejudice to try out to see if they work...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Murders-White-House-Farm-ebook/dp/B00UXKJ0SA/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid= (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Murders-White-House-Farm-ebook/dp/B00UXKJ0SA/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid=)
Here's the Kindle App on my PC, but it also works on a spare laptop...
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I use Firefox browser, and it reads OK on that, more like a book, but it's exactly the same text/content that you showed me and have already read... just a bit easier on the eye with sepia-toned option, that's all. They'll not give too much away, just a taster!
You buying the book or e-pub?
If you want the cheaper e-pub version (£7.47), try downloading the free "Kindle Reading App" which acts like a virtual Kindle on your laptop or PC.
You have to enter your e-mail address first, and if I remember they also give you one or two free classics such as Treasure Island and Pride & Prejudice to try out to see if they work...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Murders-White-House-Farm-ebook/dp/B00UXKJ0SA/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid= (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Murders-White-House-Farm-ebook/dp/B00UXKJ0SA/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid=)
Here's the Kindle App on my PC, but it also works on a spare laptop...
Oh right. Firefox cheaper pub version. Got it.
Myster, I haven't got a clue what you're on about, I understood one word in ten. But I know you mean well!! 8**8:/:
I'll just order the book from Amazon. Then I'll probably skim through it. Massive kudos to C.A.L. for researching in depth.
And ten years later, Bamber will be farting like a trooper after his mushy sprouts, and pulling his cracker with Mark Bridger.
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Nothing new there then!
Little of anything of significance relative to the murders will be found in either book but if you like reading triviality do carry on.
I suppose that when Ian Brady and Peter Sutcliffe shuffle off their ghastly mortal coils there will be a little flurry of interest in them again. For a while. Bamber seems to be getting his 15 minutes in the next couple of weeks. Thank goodness it will be a pyrrhic victory. 8((()*/
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Oh right. Firefox cheaper pub version. Got it.
Myster, I haven't got a clue what you're on about, I understood one word in ten. But I know you mean well!! 8**8:/:
I'll just order the book from Amazon. Then I'll probably skim through it. Massive kudos to C.A.L. for researching in depth.
And ten years later, Bamber will be farting like a trooper after his mushy sprouts, and pulling his cracker with Mark Bridger.
What sort of computer have you got... A Victorian Steampunk Sumsang? 8(8-))
Get BT on the job... he'll sort you out! @)(++(*
P.S. - when you've skimmed through the book, skim it my way if you would.... please. 8**8:/:
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Members are reminded that digital copies of any book are always welcome in our library in order to facilitate research as permitted by existing UK copyright law.
Admin
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From The Mail on Sunday
Carol Ann Lee, "Now I know Bamber did it"
Better late than never I suppose. ching ching
(http://i.imgur.com/NyXRT[Name removed].jpg?1)
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3157376/Now-know-Bamber-did-Crime-writer-s-definitive-verdict-public-schoolboy-slaughtered-entire-family-30-years-ago-tried-frame-dead-sister-protested-innocence.html
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I reckon CAL's ahead by a furlong in this two-horse race!
8**8:/: weeee! -------------------------------- ?8)@)-) ... Gee-yup, Paul!
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What sort of computer have you got... A Victorian Steampunk Sumsang? 8(8-))
Get BT on the job... he'll sort you out! @)(++(*
P.S. - when you've skimmed through the book, skim it my way if you would.... please. 8**8:/:
BT's called BT because he's got big tits, not because he's got any computer skills!
I owe you a prezzie, so I've just ordered you a copy from the Mail, I'll get it off to Myster Towers as soon as it arrives. 8((()*/
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I reckon CAL's ahead by a furlong in this two-horse race!
8**8:/: weeee! -------------------------------- ?8)@)-) ... Gee-yup, Paul!
Yes, a two-horse race to a conclusion most of us have already made in any event. I suppose she's got to eat.
Holly's quiet...has she got over the shock yet? 8(8-))
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Yes, a two-horse race to a conclusion most of us have already made in any event. I suppose she's got to eat.
Holly's quiet...has she got over the shock yet? 8(8-))
Holly has been enjoying the Wimbledon final 8((()*/
Shock...what shock? The article contains nothing new. Typical tabloid fodder. It sounds like a journo has extracted excerpts and put together an article with their own slant on the case, so much so they have changed the cover of the book/its title! I wonder if CAL/her publishers were aware of this? I've yet to read the book but based on the reviews and excerpts I've read I thought CAL had left it open for the reader to draw his/her own conclusion?
Was this a journo wanting an easy day at his/her desk or did someone put him/her up to it? &%+((£
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Lots of good police officers don't wish to end up as managers so refuse promotion, its that simple.
Did DS Jones refuse promotion?
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I think you're probably right, John. I wonder if, when I'm having a cheeky google, I'll stumble across "Mason Doyle's" effort? And his "smoking gun"?
Or I just might paint the back door. Then watch it dry. ?>)()<
I've varnished my stock, shaved my legs and nicked a load of out of date tomatoes and eggs from the back of tescos ready for you guys to pelt me into submission and ridicule and humiliate me with the "smoking gun" 8)><(
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You're seeing things again, holls! 8(>((
They haven't changed the book cover at all... that's just an enhanced photo of WHF on which the cover was based! 8((()*/
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I've varnished my stock, shaved my legs and nicked a load of out of date tomatoes and eggs from the back of tescos ready for you guys to pelt me into submission and ridicule and humiliate me with the "smoking gun" 8)><(
... which will be triggered on the 18th. ?>)()<
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You're seeing things again, holls! 8(>((
They haven't changed the book cover at all... that's just an enhanced photo of WHF on which the cover was based! 8((()*/
Must be my age dear! What else have I 'seen' recently then where I was deluded? &%+((£
I'm all breathless. Just run down to the local shop and managed to secure the last copy of the DM. Had to sweet talk the boy to take it out the bundle to be returned. Phew!
CAL's Front Cover
"THE MURDERS AT WHITE HOUSE FARM
Jeremy Bamber and the killing of his family. The definitive investigation."
Daily Mail
"NOW I KNOW BAMBER DID IT"
(Caps and underscore as per printed editions)
I thought it would be serialised as per my contact in Waterstones.
http://www.iaindale.com/posts/2013/09/22/how-newspaper-book-serialisations-work
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I assume the Tora Tomkinson referred to in CAL's book and Tara referred to in Farhad Emami's (Freddie) WS's are one and the same with an O and A getting lost somewhere in translation?
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I assume the Tora Tomkinson referred to in CAL's book and Tara referred to in Farhad Emami's (Freddie) WS's are one and the same with an O and A getting lost somewhere in translation?
Appears there's only one Tora Tomkinson alive, aged 65+ in the UK ~ giyf
Is FE's wit stat on here?
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Have you been reading about John "Goldfinger" Palmer, Holl? Essex police and TWO ambulance crews decided that he had died of natural causes - he'd been shot six times!!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ5r3oNFVeE
Good grief! Do EP never learn 8()(((@#
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3155737/John-Goldfinger-Palmer-riddled-bullets-Gangster-shot-six-times-suffered-wounds-chest-arms.html
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Appears there's only one Tora Tomkinson alive, aged 65+ in the UK ~ giyf
Is FE's wit stat on here?
No.
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Good grief! Do EP never learn 8()(((@#
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3155737/John-Goldfinger-Palmer-riddled-bullets-Gangster-shot-six-times-suffered-wounds-chest-arms.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3155737/John-Goldfinger-Palmer-riddled-bullets-Gangster-shot-six-times-suffered-wounds-chest-arms.html)
... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqMXOajLiVM&list=FLZFZfbU6SgeJiKXJ6fpyWUQ&index=76 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqMXOajLiVM&list=FLZFZfbU6SgeJiKXJ6fpyWUQ&index=76)
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Must be my age dear! What else have I 'seen' recently then where I was deluded? &%+((£
I'm all breathless. Just run down to the local shop and managed to secure the last copy of the DM. Had to sweet talk the boy to take it out the bundle to be returned. Phew!
CAL's Front Cover
"THE MURDERS AT WHITE HOUSE FARM
Jeremy Bamber and the killing of his family. The definitive investigation."
Daily Mail
"NOW I KNOW BAMBER DID IT"
(Caps and underscore as per printed editions)
I thought it would be serialised as per my contact in Waterstones.
http://www.iaindale.com/posts/2013/09/22/how-newspaper-book-serialisations-work
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Found the link...
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rj14BwAAQBAJ&pg=PP255&lpg=PP255&dq=The+Murders+at+White+House+Farm+read&source=bl&ots=h7KmLHRnPl&sig=Mq-fJTjV015NHZ2BOWq7GlxUSEY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pz2gVba6EeXW7QaXzYjADg&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=The%20Murders%20at%20White%20House%20Farm%20read&f=false (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rj14BwAAQBAJ&pg=PP255&lpg=PP255&dq=The+Murders+at+White+House+Farm+read&source=bl&ots=h7KmLHRnPl&sig=Mq-fJTjV015NHZ2BOWq7GlxUSEY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pz2gVba6EeXW7QaXzYjADg&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=The%20Murders%20at%20White%20House%20Farm%20read&f=false)
Looks like the WHF plans have been taken from yours truly's. 8((()*/
I only had chance to skim the above at the time and was going to read it carefully but its gone?!
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Geez, Holly... that isn't meant to be a book cover!... it's just an illustration using the same photo + new shock headline to fill up the page and describe who the article is written by. CAL's trying to get her two-penneth in before PH's book comes out in X (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/to?iso=20150718T00&p0=1362&msg=Deviant%3A+Jeremy+Bamber+%26+the+White+House+Farm+Murders&font=serif&swk=1)time!
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I only had chance to skim the above at the time and was going to read it carefully but its gone?!
S**** said something about there being a time limit on it, but the text/content is exactly the same as the Sainsbury's one here, no more, no less...
http://www.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/reader/9780283072222?fromssl=true
(http://www.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/reader/9780283072222?fromssl=true)
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Geez, Holly... that isn't meant to be a book cover!... it's just an illustration using the same photo + new shock headline to fill up the page and describe who the article is written by. CAL's trying to get her two-penneth in before PH's book comes out in X (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/to?iso=20150718T00&p0=1362&msg=Deviant%3A+Jeremy+Bamber+%26+the+White+House+Farm+Murders&font=serif&swk=1)time!
Hmmm well it appears to me that the DM are using CAL's cover with a sensational own creation headline! I doubt CAL has much say in editorial content.
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S**** said something about there being a time limit on it, but the text/content is exactly the same as the Sainsbury's one here, no more, no less...
http://www.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/reader/9780283072222?fromssl=true
(http://www.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/reader/9780283072222?fromssl=true)
Oh Myster...you are so resourceful and knowledgeable about IT 8**8:/: I've now installed Firefox on my laptop and can read the above 8((()*/
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I wonder how much The Mail on Sunday paid her for the
story serialisation, something any idiot reporter could have put together?
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Its perhaps a bit dangerous to start posting based on excerpts but it seems SC's first termination was an unplanned pregnancy with CC? I thought SC had a relationship with a farmhand which resulted in an unplanned pregnancy/termination? I'm sure this was in most, if not all, of the previous books incl CC's?
I note NB and June's friends, Richard and Inez Bowen, had a son who worked at WHF and was apparently friendly with SC. This was around the time SC was 16/17 yoa. No mention of the son by name.
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Its perhaps a bit dangerous to start posting based on excerpts but it seems SC's first termination was an unplanned pregnancy with CC? I thought SC had a relationship with a farmhand which resulted in an unplanned pregnancy/termination? I'm sure this was in most, if not all, of the previous books incl CC's?
I note NB and June's friends, Richard and Inez Bowen, had a son who worked at WHF and was apparently friendly with SC. This was around the time SC was 16/17 yoa. No mention of the son by name.
I wouldn't be guided too much by this authors speculations Holly. We already know the important stuff and that's what counts.
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Oh Myster...you are so resourceful and knowledgeable about IT 8**8:/: I've now installed Firefox on my laptop and can read the above 8((()*/
8(8-)) You reminded me of college days spent with teletype and ticker-tape, when we had to book an hour's use on a mainframe a week in advance.
If you decide to stick with Firefox there are a couple of Add-ons that might be of interest...
MAFF (Mozilla Archive File Format) which stores any downloaded web page complete, (equivalent of a ZIP file), instead of as disparate text, picture and formatting files littering your save folder(s).
Knowing you, I think you hoard anything and everything found on the net. 8(0(*
Adblock Plus which stops most if not all pop-up advertising. Especially useful if you have a Youtube video Favourites account. You can set music and other videos on autoplay without having to suffer endless irritating adverts.
I've used both for a while with no ill-effects. 8((()*/
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/mozilla-archive-format/ (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/mozilla-archive-format/)
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/adblock-plus/ (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/adblock-plus/)
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I wouldn't be guided too much by this authors speculations Holly. We already know the important stuff and that's what counts.
Do I detect a sense of paternalism towards me John? ?{)(** Perhaps you think at the very least I need protecting from myself? &%+((£
Now I'm being serious here on Sunday I feel sure I read an excerpt from CAL's book re clarification on Dr Vanezis' pathology report however I can't find it now and having had a few drinks on Sunday I'm wondering did I imagine/dream it or was it for real?
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8(8-)) You reminded me of college days spent with teletype and ticker-tape, when we had to book an hour's use on a mainframe a week in advance.
If you decide to stick with Firefox there are a couple of Add-ons that might be of interest...
MAFF (Mozilla Archive File Format) which stores any downloaded web page complete, (equivalent of a ZIP file), instead of as disparate text, picture and formatting files littering your save folder(s).
Knowing you, I think you hoard anything and everything found on the net. 8(0(*
Adblock Plus which stops most if not all pop-up advertising. Especially useful if you have a Youtube video Favourites account. You can set music and other videos on autoplay without having to suffer endless irritating adverts.
I've used both for a while with no ill-effects. 8((()*/
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/mozilla-archive-format/ (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/mozilla-archive-format/)
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/adblock-plus/ (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/adblock-plus/)
Oh Myster... addons 8**8:/: Thank you.
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Do I detect a sense of paternalism towards me John? ?{)(** Perhaps you think at the very least I need protecting from myself? &%+((£
Now I'm being serious here on Sunday I feel sure I read an excerpt from CAL's book re clarification on Dr Vanezis' pathology report however I can't find it now and having had a few drinks on Sunday I'm wondering did I imagine/dream it or was it for real?
Its all hype Holly, nobody who knows anything about the White House Farm murders believes for a minute that any of these authors have anything of value. Jeremy must be pissing himself laughing at them all or crying in his cornflakes depending on your point of view!
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I wonder how much The Mail on Sunday paid her for the story serialisation, something any idiot reporter could have put together?
It was pretty lame - I don't know why anyone expects much from the Daily Mail. They made a mockery of Patrick Macnee's auto (but on the plus side, I bought a copy of Blind In One Ear years ago from Bookfinder-General, and apparently it's worth a few bob now! 8((()*/ )
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How massively joyous that Magdelena Luczak has died (hopefully by her own hand.)
I struggle with the concept of capital punishment, but there is very little point in keeping child killers alive for 40/50 years. Hopefully, Jeremy Bamber will come to terms with the futility of his existance, and do the right thing too.
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It was pretty lame - I don't know why anyone expects much from the Daily Mail. They made a mockery of Patrick Macnee's auto (but on the plus side, I bought a copy of Blind In One Ear years ago from Bookfinder-General, and apparently it's worth a few bob now! 8((()*/ )
Might as well auction it off then while it's dog-eared and buy three autographed copies of 'Deviant'... one for me, one for Holls, and one for wonky whotsit.
They'll be worth a lot more when Jem pops his clogs. 8((()*/
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Patrick-Macnee-Marie-Cameron-BLIND-IN-ONE-EAR-Harrap-hardcover-1st-edition-/121700570761?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c55eb5689 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Patrick-Macnee-Marie-Cameron-BLIND-IN-ONE-EAR-Harrap-hardcover-1st-edition-/121700570761?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c55eb5689)
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Might as well auction it off then while it's dog-eared and buy three autographed copies of 'Deviant'... one for me, one for Holls, and one for wonky whotsit.
They'll be worth a lot more when Jem pops his clogs. 8((()*/
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Patrick-Macnee-Marie-Cameron-BLIND-IN-ONE-EAR-Harrap-hardcover-1st-edition-/121700570761?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c55eb5689 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Patrick-Macnee-Marie-Cameron-BLIND-IN-ONE-EAR-Harrap-hardcover-1st-edition-/121700570761?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c55eb5689)
Good morning, Myster!
It's not dog-eared, it's a hardback in perfect nick, even the dust-jacket. And I can't part with it, I'm an Avengers nut (I'm Pugman on the forum).
I'll be buying "Deviant" when it's in a basket outside The Works (I don't like bullies.) I'm sure I'll read about the "smoking gun" on here. ?>)()<
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This week's serialisation of CAL's book in the MoS which includes a contribution from CC:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3166636/Bamber-slaughtered-family-25-bullets-told-girlfriend-s-going-years-investigation-leading-author-tell-exactly-happened-night-White-House-Farm-massacre.html
The serialisation doesn't seem to correspond with the book excerpts *%87
So much for Caroline's research on the 'last trailer'; apparently NB was seen bringing it in by Len Foakes at 10.15pm.
"Dorothy's husband Len was the last person to see any member of the household alive. At about 10.15pm he saw Nevill on his tractor, collecting the last of the rapeseed harvest".
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This week's serialisation of CAL's book in the MoS which includes a contribution from CC:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3166636/Bamber-slaughtered-family-25-bullets-told-girlfriend-s-going-years-investigation-leading-author-tell-exactly-happened-night-White-House-Farm-massacre.html
The serialisation doesn't seem to correspond with the book excerpts *%87
So much for Caroline's research on the 'last trailer'; apparently NB was seen bringing it in by Len Foakes at 10.15pm.
"Dorothy's husband Len was the last person to see any member of the household alive. At about 10.15pm he saw Nevill on his tractor, collecting the last of the rapeseed harvest".
Err, that was simply a 'scenario' dear an idea - try reading things properly! How could I research who brought it back? @)(++(* Seriously, quit with the obsession - it's embarrassing! %56& However, given that CAL is confused about the phones and when they were moved, I'm not 100% convinced that Foakes did 'see' Nevill - why would he be outside at 10:15?
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Several possibilities on a warm Summer night... taking a breather, checking everything was safe outside their cottage, or if they had a dog, letting it out before retiring.
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Err, that was simply a 'scenario' dear an idea - try reading things properly! How could I research who brought it back? @)(++(* Seriously, quit with the obsession - it's embarrassing! %56& However, given that CAL is confused about the phones and when they were moved, I'm not 100% convinced that Foakes did 'see' Nevill - why would he be outside at 10:15?
The phones are a lot more important than many people realise. IMO they are actually key to proving Bamber's guilt.
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Re. theories in the above Mail-on-Sunday article:
Carol Ann Lee has in my opinion got the sequence of a couple of events wrong. For example, why would Jeremy Bamber after shooting his father four times in the bedroom, then go off to fire one bullet at each twin in their room, leaving Nevill alone but still able to walk around and free to escape to raise the alarm using the kitchen phone? It doesn't make sense. More likely that his father was either forced or followed/chased downstairs immediately after being shot.
In Dr Vanezis' opinion, five bullets were fired in quick succession at Daniel's head, not just one then four later on, placing doubt on CAL's "single bullet first" theory...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=694 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=694)
Also doubt that Sheila was left alone after being shot once, so that Bamber could finish off the twins, as written in CAL's account. Again, according to Vanezis, the second neck shot was fired within a few seconds of the first, giving very little time in between for Bamber to visit the twins' room and fire another six bullets, then go down to the kitchen, load a final one into the magazine before returning upstairs to finish his task...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732)
June was shot in the neck first whilst lying in bed, as evidenced by the blood on her pillow in the CS photo, not afterwards when walking around the bedroom as stated in the article.
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Re. theories in the above Mail-on-Sunday article:
Carol Ann Lee has in my opinion got the sequence of a couple of events wrong. For example, why would Jeremy Bamber after shooting his father four times in the bedroom, then go off to fire one bullet at each twin in their room, leaving Nevill alone but still able to walk around and free to escape to raise the alarm using the kitchen phone? It doesn't make sense. More likely that his father was either forced or followed/chased downstairs immediately after being shot.
In Dr Vanezis' opinion, five bullets were fired in quick succession at Daniel's head, not just one then four later on, placing doubt on CAL's "single bullet first" theory...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=694 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=694)
Also doubt that Sheila was left alone after being shot once, so that Bamber could finish off the twins, as written in CAL's account. Again, according to Vanezis, the second neck shot was fired within a few seconds of the first, giving very little time in between for Bamber to visit the twins' room and fire another six bullets, then go down to the kitchen, load a final one into the magazine before returning upstairs to finish his task...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732)
June was shot in the neck first whilst lying in bed, as evidenced by the blood on her pillow in the CS photo, not afterwards when walking around the bedroom as stated in the article.
Myster as far as I can see the serialisation of CAL's book in the MoS bears no resemblance to the contents of her actual book. The MoS give the impression the article is by CAL but I wouldn't mind betting she had no say whatsoever over editorial content or even allowing her book to be serialised in a tabloid. The serialisation was probably part of the deal struck with the publishers.
The article doesn't sound like CAL at all; rather a junior journo who knows next to nothing about the case. It sounds like he/she has looked through the Mail's back articles on the case and put his/her own spin on it in line with the editor's take on the case. The phones have a ring of Bob Woffinden about them?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387438/I-wrong-Jeremy-Bamber-says-crime-writer.html
Most, if not all, journalists at the Mail will only have a fraction of knowledge about the case compared with most posters on this forum.
Btw I agree with your analysis above.
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Err, that was simply a 'scenario' dear an idea - try reading things properly! How could I research who brought it back? @)(++(* Seriously, quit with the obsession - it's embarrassing! %56& However, given that CAL is confused about the phones and when they were moved, I'm not 100% convinced that Foakes did 'see' Nevill - why would he be outside at 10:15?
Yes I appreciate it was a 'scenario' an idea. How can I read things properly when the only place I can read the thread you created entitled 'The Last Trailer' is on a forum you banned me from? And has since been made 'members only' meaning guests can no longer view only!
How about allowing me access to your 'scenario' idea as previously agreed:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1033.msg189741#msg189741
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1033.msg189746#msg189746
If I remember correctly it was a lengthy post and involved a crow flying to the end of the field but worded more poetically &%+((£ Oh go on Caro lets see 'The Last Trailer' 8((()*/
As far as I can see JB said he left the last trailer for NB to bring in and this seems to be the case based on Len Foakes' WS. Len Foakes lived along Pages Lane and worked at WHF so I see nothing odd with him observing NB at 10.15pm in August at the busiest time on the farm?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5632.0;attach=4572
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If it was written by journos, then surely they must have access to the book and didn't come up with such wide of the mark theories off their own bat. Three years of research have supposedly gone into this book, so I can't see CAL letting inaccurate statements by a junior hack pass
Myster muster. There's a Carol Ann Lee copyright declaration with the article too, so she must have had some control and vetting.
You'll have to wait until the 30th to compare and contrast, then we'll find out who's right. &%+((£
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If it was written by journos, then surely they must have access to the book and didn't come up with such wide of the mark theories off their own bat. Three years of research have supposedly gone into this book, so I can't see CAL letting inaccurate statements by a junior hack pass Myster muster. There's a Carol Ann Lee copyright declaration with the article too, so she must have had some control and vetting.
You'll have to wait until the 30th to compare and contrast, then we'll find out who's right. &%+((£
I've seen lots of discrepancies between the MoS articles and CAL's book excerpts. The MoS are quoting CAL as believing JB guilty but in her book excerpts she appears balanced, objective and impartial allowing the reader to draw his/her own conclusion:
http://www.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/reader/9780283072222?fromssl=true
How newspaper serialisations work by Iain Dale:
http://www.iaindale.com/posts/2013/09/22/how-newspaper-book-serialisations-work
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Tis all about money at the end of the day whether it is a book or a serialisation. The thought that an innocent young man might have wiled away three decades in a jail sells to the great British public.
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I've seen lots of discrepancies between the MoS articles and CAL's book excerpts. The MoS are quoting CAL as believing JB guilty but in her book excerpts she appears balanced, objective and impartial allowing the reader to draw his/her own conclusion:
http://www.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/reader/9780283072222?fromssl=true
How newspaper serialisations work by Iain Dale:
http://www.iaindale.com/posts/2013/09/22/how-newspaper-book-serialisations-work
Holly, the Sainsbury exerpt appears to be all about family life and relationships up until 1978 and has no reference to the murders? Is this merely a tease prior to the main course?
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A Yorkshire Post interview with Carol Ann Lee...
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/features/bamber-murders-the-definitive-account-1-7368685 (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/features/bamber-murders-the-definitive-account-1-7368685)
Contrary to what Carol Ann Lee says at the end of the above article, it would have been very easy for a fit, agile 24 year-old farmer to get into WHF Toilet/Shower Room or Lounge by one of the sliding-sash windows, as Jeremy Bamber admitted he had done so several times before in this police interview transcript - 10 to 12 Sept 1985...
(http://i.imgur.com/aRgD950.jpg?1)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1336 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1336)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1338 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1338)
A wooden scaffolding plank or used fencing placed underneath the window as in this contemporary photo would have made the Toilet/Shower Room easily accessible...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg22008#msg22008 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg22008#msg22008)
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A Yorkshire Post interview with Carol Ann Lee...
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/features/bamber-murders-the-definitive-account-1-7368685 (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/features/bamber-murders-the-definitive-account-1-7368685)
Contrary to what Carol Ann Lee says at the end of the above article, it would have been very easy for a fit, agile 24 year-old farmer to get into WHF Toilet/Shower Room or Lounge by one of the sliding-sash windows, as Jeremy Bamber admitted he had done so several times before in this police interview transcript - 10 to 12 Sept 1985...
I am really beginning to wonder if this author knows much about this case beyond the cosy chats and e-mails she has reported having with contributors to this book? Her apparent ignorance of many matters including the means by which Jeremy Bamber used to gain access to an otherwise secure farmhouse is hard to square with her pre launch claim of a definitive account.
Carol Ann Lee might have consciously made the decision not to visit Bamber even though he was in a cell a mere three miles from her home but by the looks of it he has managed to influence her all the same. According to Miss Lee, Jeremy Bamber offered to correct potential errors in her book before publication but this was declined by her with no explanation given.
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I am really beginning to wonder if this author knows much about this case beyond the cosy chats and e-mails she has reported having with contributors to this book? Her apparent ignorance of many matters including the means by which Jeremy Bamber used to gain access to an otherwise secure farmhouse is hard to square with her pre launch claim of a definitive account.
Carol Ann Lee might have consciously made the decision not to visit Bamber even though he was in a cell a mere three miles from her home but by the looks of it he has managed to influence her all the same. According to Miss Lee, Jeremy Bamber offered to correct potential errors in her book before publication but this was declined by her with no explanation given.
I had high hopes for this book (especially after reading "Deviant") ......I doubt if she would have been granted permission to visit Bamber, but she could at least have done her homework. Yet again, this forum (well done, Myster) proves that we have all the facts of this case. 8((()*/
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Holly, the Sainsbury exerpt appears to be all about family life and relationships up until 1978 and has no reference to the murders? Is this merely a tease prior to the main course?
As I said a day or so ago, I'm pretty certain I read in another excerpt some very interesting clarification from an interview CAL had with Peter Vanezis. But as I read it after a day at Wimbledon and drinks I'm unsure if I read it for real or imagined it while slightly intoxicated! If it was for real Peter Vanezis confirms a) the burn marks were made on the night of the murders (I was wrong) and b) SC put her hand to neck after the first shot (you were wrong). It seems she also interviewed Malcom Fletcher and Dr Ferguson.
In Myster's recent post and link to the Yorkshire Post interview with CAL she tells how unlike other authors she has started from the beginning and worked forward to the tragedy. So yes the Sainsbury's excerpt might well be the tease prior to the main course.
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A Yorkshire Post interview with Carol Ann Lee...
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/features/bamber-murders-the-definitive-account-1-7368685 (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/features/bamber-murders-the-definitive-account-1-7368685)
Contrary to what Carol Ann Lee says at the end of the above article, it would have been very easy for a fit, agile 24 year-old farmer to get into WHF Toilet/Shower Room or Lounge by one of the sliding-sash windows, as Jeremy Bamber admitted he had done so several times before in this police interview transcript - 10 to 12 Sept 1985...
(http://i.imgur.com/aRgD950.jpg?1)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1336 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1336)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1338 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1338)
A wooden scaffolding plank or used fencing placed underneath the window as in this contemporary photo would have made the Toilet/Shower Room easily accessible...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg22008#msg22008 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg22008#msg22008)
I will reserve judgement until I've read the book rather than rely on second hand accounts via newspapers.
The article makes no sense in a number of places: CAL states she has her own views and has agreed with JB to remain neutral (obviously a fact the MoS seem to have overlooked). Yet she states JB claims he did not attempt to contact his birth parents pre tragedy; the relatives state the opposite that JB did attempt to contact them pre tragedy and they declined contact. CAL has run with the relatives over JB. Why would she do this in the absence of any further info?
I haven't read in any of the WS's that JB attempted to contact his birth parents pre tragedy. AE makes several references to SC contacting her birth mother.
Saying she thought JB might struggle to fit in/out of a window doesn't mean anything really. It doesn't rule it in or out. She might have said that in passing to the journalist but I doubt if the book will contain such a personal view.
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Been on a biz mtg all day. Just looked at my messages and rcvd a text message from Waterstones CAL's book is ready for collection. I'm off 8(*(
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Been on a biz mtg all day. Just looked at my messages and rcvd a text message from Waterstones CAL's book is ready for collection. I'm off 8(*(
What the f...!!!... it's only supposed to be released on the 30th!
How come you get special treatment, Holly Golightly but Doolittle!!!
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What the f...!!!... it's only supposed to be released on the 30th!
How come you get special treatment, Holly Golightly but Doolittle!!!
?>)()<
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?>)()<
?>)()< Thee <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 8()(((@# Me
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?>)()< Thee <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 8()(((@# Me
Home with said book in hand. Breathless and trembling with anticipation of what might be as I turn each page....
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Home with said book in hand. Breathless and trembling with anticipation of what might be as I turn each page....
Mmmm *%87 ... I know what it is! ?>)()<
You've got a FREE advance copy so can you give a 8((()*/ rather than a %56& review for Waterstones before publication date.
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Home with said book in hand. Breathless and trembling with anticipation of what might be as I turn each page....
I bet it's shit!
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I bet it's shit!
Awww Sika give the girl a break. Its excellent. CAL's research and attention to detail is outstanding. She must have worked so hard to put this together and is clearly very talented. I'm at page 163 and now moving to 7th Aug and post murders. What I'm really enjoying is that everything is presented neutrally. As I move onto SoC etc that may change.
It's definitely, by far, the best book I've read with regard to background. Whether CAL can trump Wilkes on aspects like the blood evidence and silencer remains to be seen - I will report back!
So far well done CAL 8((()*/ 8@??)(
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I assume the Tora Tomkinson referred to in CAL's book and Tara referred to in Farhad Emami's (Freddie) WS's are one and the same with an O and A getting lost somewhere in translation?
Yes the Tara referred to in Freddie's WS and Tora Tomkinson are one and the same. She was very close to SC and it appears she was also adopted.
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CAL interviewed Dr Vanezis. He confirms the burn marks were made on the night of the murders. He suggests the rifle/silencer as a result of the heat generated from firing. He explains the lack of burn marks on NB's PJ's as a result of the different properties ie skin v cloth. Which if you think about an iron for clothes makes sense.
He also suggests SC did put her hand up to her wound.
If the rifle/silencer did cause the burns as a result of firing I'm surprised the flake in the silencer wasn't destroyed to the extent it was incapable of yielding results for serological analysis *%87
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As far as I can see CAL has made a significant error in that she refers to the blood samples etc taken from the victims at post portem being sent direct to FSS. Whereas according to Dr Vanezis' WS they were handed to EP and, according to a COLP interview, stored in the SoC fridge at chelmsford police station.
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Dr Vanezis refers to SC's two wounds as 'loose contact' as opposed to 'close contact'. This coupled with the small calibre rifle, low velocity ammo, and use of a silencer makes drawback less likely. Factor in the heat from firing the rifle ie likely to destroy blood evidence and render useless for serological analysis and the so-called silencer/blood evidence is starting to look decidedly dodgy &%+((£
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I have read SC was placed in foster care after June's 2nd breakdown in 1959 but according to CAL SC was looked after by NB and other family members.
SC - birthmother
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Children's home
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June
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NB and other family members
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June and Julia Sayer
The above shows the various 'caregivers' SC had during critical bonding periods where all the evidence shows the optimal situation is for an infant to bond with a single 'primary' caregiver.
Julia Sayer was a full-time nanny hired by the Bambers when June was released from St Andrews circa 1959.
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If the infant doesn't form sufficiently strong bonds leading to an 'attachment disorder' such as 'disorganised' attachment this can lead to a propensity towards violence, aggression and suicide. And might explain the level of violence used at WHF.
The above is supported by all relevant experts across the globe and yet I still can't see that it has been considered and ruled in or out in connection with WHF.
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If the infant doesn't form sufficiently strong bonds leading to an 'attachment disorder' such as 'disorganised' attachment this can lead to a propensity towards violence, aggression and suicide. And might explain the level of violence used at WHF.
The above is supported by all relevant experts across the globe and yet I still can't see that it has been considered and ruled in or out in connection with WHF.
CAL believes Jeremy Bamber was the murderer... it says so in the Mail on Sunday. 8((()*/
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CAL interviewed Dr Vanezis. He confirms the burn marks were made on the night of the murders. He suggests the rifle/silencer as a result of the heat generated from firing. He explains the lack of burn marks on NB's PJ's as a result of the different properties ie skin v cloth. Which if you think about an iron for clothes makes sense.
He also suggests SC did put her hand up to her wound.
If the rifle/silencer did cause the burns as a result of firing I'm surprised the flake in the silencer wasn't destroyed to the extent it was incapable of yielding results for serological analysis *%87
I don't think so, had she put her hand to the wound it would have have blood on the palms and inner fingers and would have been completely smudged. There would also have been a substantial amount of blood on the rifle and the trigger which there wasn't.
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I don't think so, had she put her hand to the wound it would have have blood on the palms and inner fingers and would have been completely smudged. There would also have been a substantial amount of blood on the rifle and the trigger which there wasn't.
Who's the good looking guy in the avatar pic John?
Just for you:
"Vanezis recorded in his initial notes: 'Blood-stained palm print on nightdress matches bloodstains appear to have been transferred from r.hand...Both hands not contaminated apart from bloodstains'. But in court he declared that Sheila's hands were 'completely free of blood and if she'd pressed against the nightdress I would have still seen some traces of blood on her palms. He explained that blood on her nightdress 'appearedto have been transferred from her wrist' although 'the palms of her hand were certainly not contaminated with blood, but there was spotting of blood associated and close to the wrist.'
Asked to address the discrepancy today, Vanezis muses: 'I'm not sure whether I said that after the blood had been washed from her hands'. Regarding his courtroom statement about the stain on her nightdress, he reflects: 'The smear in the blood on her neck wounds is obviously from putting her hand up to it. Her fingers could then have made the marks on her nightdress because there are three streaks forming the stain - two together and one slightly apart. The marks could be from her wrist, but the thickness of them definitely resembles fingers and she certainly has some blood on the side of her hand. There's also a line through the streaks where the material has folded, giving a slightly distorted pattern'. The blood trails evident on Sheila's lower right arm, together with substantial blood staining on the right side of the nightdress in the armpit area and below, reinforced the probability that she had raised her hand to her neck".
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Thanks for that Holly, bottom line is he can't be sure about any of this, however, as I pointed out, there would have been much more smearing evident in the original crimescene photos had Sheila been mobile for any length of time after the first wound.
The only smearing I can see on her neck is where her head was forward causing a mirror image effect before she was laid back. There are no marks whatsoever caused by her hand or fingers.
Below: Enlargement of original crime-scene photo.
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This was what Vanezis was presented with, a slightly different proposition what?
Below: Sheila Caffell after having been moved to the mortuary.
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Thanks for that Holly, bottom line is he can't be sure about any of this, however, as I pointed out, there would have been much more smearing evident in the original crimescene photos had Sheila been mobile for any length of time after the first wound.
The only smearing I can see on her neck is where her head was forward causing a mirror image effect before she was laid back. There are no marks whatsoever caused by her hand or fingers.
Below: Enlargement of original crime-scene photo.
I struggle with the soc photos so I wouldn't like to say. I think Dr V is saying the marks on SC's nightdress are consistent with her fingers?
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I struggle with the soc photos so I wouldn't like to say. I think Dr V is saying the marks on SC's nightdress are consistent with her fingers?
The original crime-scene photos are unique. Clearly, the marks on her nightdress came from contact with her arm and wrist at some stage.
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And then we have the altered/staged position of the arm and hand in the two photos below which probably caused the staining on the nightdress AFTER THE EVENT.
Only Jeremy and the first police officers who entered the master bedroom will ever know the actual positioning of Sheila's arms and where the rifle was.
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And then we have the altered/staged position of the arm and hand in the two photos below which probably caused the staining on the nightdress AFTER THE EVENT.
Only Jeremy and the first police officers who entered the master bedroom will ever know the actual positioning of Sheila's arms and where the rifle was.
CAL had a mtg with DI Cook and his wife Alvina.
"The two men examined her more closely, noticing a blood-stain on her nightdress under her wrist. In order to see it clearly, Cook moved her hand and asked DC Bird to take shots of it. Crime scene photographs thus show Sheila's hand in two positions and from a slightly different angle. At trial, Cook explained that his aim had been 'to demonstrate the blood marks which were not readily visible under the wrist'. Bird confirmed that he was present and had already taken a 'series of photographs' when Cook moved Sheila's hand to show the marks on the nightdress. Acting Sergeant Woodstock also mentions Cook's action in his witness statement".
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CAL had a mtg with DI Cook and his wife Alvina.
"The two men examined her more closely, noticing a blood-stain on her nightdress under her wrist. In order to see it clearly, Cook moved her hand and asked DC Bird to take shots of it. Crime scene photographs thus show Sheila's hand in two positions and from a slightly different angle. At trial, Cook explained that his aim had been 'to demonstrate the blood marks which were not readily visible under the wrist'. Bird confirmed that he was present and had already taken a 'series of photographs' when Cook moved Sheila's hand to show the marks on the nightdress. Acting Sergeant Woodstock also mentions Cook's action in his witness statement".
"Vanezis submits that in such a scenario, the length of the rifle must also be taken into account: 'If Sheila had the gun in her hands, she would be able to wave it around and hit him with it - and Nevill would have to be careful how he grabbed it, because if it had already been fired, then it would have been hot. Plus, I'm never surprised by the strength women have when they're filled with anger'.
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"Vanezis submits that in such a scenario, the length of the rifle must also be taken into account: 'If Sheila had the gun in her hands, she would be able to wave it around and hit him with it - and Nevill would have to be careful how he grabbed it, because if it had already been fired, then it would have been hot. Plus, I'm never surprised by the strength women have when they're filled with anger'.
Hmmm sounds like Dr V might have upset the fairer sex from time -to- time &%+((£
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"Vanezis submits that in such a scenario, the length of the rifle must also be taken into account: 'If Sheila had the gun in her hands, she would be able to wave it around and hit him with it - and Nevill would have to be careful how he grabbed it, because if it had already been fired, then it would have been hot. Plus, I'm never surprised by the strength women have when they're filled with anger'.
I believe an experiment was carried out in Arizona in recent times where an identical rifle was fired off muliple times and then the muzzle temperature recorded. It seems the muzzle never reached a temperature which could cause damage if brought into contact with human skin.
On the blue forum someone suggested that the muzzle had been heated on the kitchen Aga.
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I believe an experiment was carried out in Arizona in recent times where an identical rifle was fired off muliple times and then the muzzle temperature recorded. It seems the muzzle never reached a temperature which could cause damage if brought into contact with human skin.
On the blue forum someone suggested that the muzzle had been heated on the kitchen Aga.
The ITV clip showed that the rifle's muzzle didn't heat up sufficiently to cause the burns. What about the silencer 8(0(*. Silencers trap the hot gases in the expansion chamber and between the baffles making them far hotter than the rifle's muzzle where the hot gases dissipate in the atmosphere &%+((£
OMG he did it!
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I believe an experiment was carried out in Arizona in recent times where an identical rifle was fired off muliple times and then the muzzle temperature recorded. It seems the muzzle never reached a temperature which could cause damage if brought into contact with human skin.
On the blue forum someone suggested that the muzzle had been heated on the kitchen Aga.
You're probably thinking of 'Bamber - The New Evidence' program with firearms expert, Philip Boyce. The Anschutz 525 appeared to be a carbine version, ie. shorter than that used in the WHF case, so not representative anyway.
It's also been discussed here, with the rifle end being heated in the AGA combustion chamber via the fuel filler-hole in the left-hand hot-plate, or in the ash-pit through a door at the front. Heating it on a hot-plate or in one of the ovens on the right-hand side would have been too time-consuming to reach the required branding temperature, if at all, imo.
Having said that, the burns could have been caused by a red-hot ejected bullet shell ricocheting off the mantelpiece wall, then onto the nape of Nevill's neck, getting trapped under his pyjama top.
Or by something completely different.
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The ITV clip showed that the rifle's muzzle didn't heat up sufficiently to cause the burns. What about the silencer 8(0(* . Silencers trap the hot gases in the expansion chamber and between the baffles making them far hotter than the rifle's muzzle where the hot gases dissipate in the atmosphere &%+((£
OMG he did it!
The diameter of a Parker-Hale moderator is about three-quarters of an inch, a lot larger than any of the three burn marks.
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The diameter of a Parker-Hale moderator is about three-quarters of an inch, a lot larger than any of the three burn marks.
In the Oscar Pistorius trial, these marks on Reeva Steenkamp's back were thought by some to be have been caused by a hot bullet ricocheting off the tiled wall behind her.
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In the Oscar Pistorius trial, these marks on Reeva Steenkamp's back were thought by some to be have been caused by a hot bullet ricocheting off the tiled wall behind her.
I had written off the burn marks on the basis that Dr V made no ref to them when asked by the defence about other injuries NB sustained (other than gunshot wounds).
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=292.msg134570#msg134570
Why would he do this? And he didn't even respond to my email seeking clarification 8()(((@#. Perhaps it's good he understands the strength of women when consumed with anger 8()(((@#
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The diameter of a Parker-Hale moderator is about three-quarters of an inch, a lot larger than any of the three burn marks.
When Dr V met CAL he disagreed with his own post mortem assessment and Malcom Fletcher's:
"With hindsight Vanezis disagrees: 'I've thought about this a lot, with the benefit of another twenty-eight years' experience. If you put something hot against fairly thick clothing, you're more likely to burn the skin than the clothing because of the properties of the skin. If you pushed a rifle against someone's back, that would fit in very nicely with the gun having already been fired and the muzzle still being hot when touching the back'. He discounts the poker: 'No, I think it's the gun pressed against his skin. I don't think you can read too much into the slight difference in the shape of the marks either. They're all fairly circular, skin is not totally flat, and the way you hold something is not always the same. My guess is that those marks are the effect of the muzzle of the rifle being prodded against Nevill's pyjama top whilst he was still alive. The temperature is such that the clothing doesn't burn. You don't need a lot of heat for that. Don't forget that we're seeing those marks after death, which dries the skin and makes it darker.' "
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When Dr V met CAL he disagreed with his own post mortem assessment and Malcom Fletcher's:
"With hindsight Vanezis disagrees: 'I've thought about this a lot, with the benefit of another twenty-eight years' experience. If you put something hot against fairly thick clothing, you're more likely to burn the skin than the clothing because of the properties of the skin. If you pushed a rifle against someone's back, that would fit in very nicely with the gun having already been fired and the muzzle still being hot when touching the back'. He discounts the poker: 'No, I think it's the gun pressed against his skin. I don't think you can read too much into the slight difference in the shape of the marks either. They're all fairly circular, skin is not totally flat, and the way you hold something is not always the same. My guess is that those marks are the effect of the muzzle of the rifle being prodded against Nevill's pyjama top whilst he was still alive. The temperature is such that the clothing doesn't burn. You don't need a lot of heat for that. Don't forget that we're seeing those marks after death, which dries the skin and makes it darker.' "
That's the problem, the marks look very dark, which makes me think that they were old and unrelated to the murders. It's impossible to tell from black and white images.
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I don't think so, had she put her hand to the wound it would have have blood on the palms and inner fingers and would have been completely smudged. There would also have been a substantial amount of blood on the rifle and the trigger which there wasn't.
Bamber obviously moved Sheila's arms in order to stage the "suicide," so it's possible that droplets and smears of blood were transferred from her shoulder to her wrist then. He might have placed her right hand at the top of the barrel (so wrist on shoulder area) then moved the hand down to the trigger when he remembered that Sheila was right-handed. I doubt if she made any conscious, voluntary (or involuntary) movements after the first shot - the haemorrhage and resulting pocket of blood in her throat went nowhere, neither upwards and coughed out, or down into her lungs and/or stomach. And sadly it must be remembered that although the boys died almost instantly, BOTH had blood present in their airways, and Nicholas had blood in his stomach.
(It's also possible that Sheila's hand WAS at the top of the barrel because she grabbed it as Bamber pushed it into her neck - that might explain blood splashing onto her wrist, and the first shot missing it's target.)
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As far as I can see CAL has made a significant error in that she refers to the blood samples etc taken from the victims at post portem being sent direct to FSS. Whereas according to Dr Vanezis' WS they were handed to EP and, according to a COLP interview, stored in the SoC fridge at chelmsford police station.
CAL makes ref to 9th Aug then moves on:
"Sheila's fingerprints and those of her parents were taken at the morturary by DSDavidson. Her hand swabs, blood samples, stomach contents, liver and urine samples, together with June's blood and urine samples, and Nevill and the twins' blood samples, were submitted to the Forensic Science Laboratory in Huntingdon that morning".
Dr V's WS confirms they were all handed to EP and stored in the fridge at Chelmsford police station. It's not clear to me when they were taken to FSS supposedly by a civilian driver.
I think CAL must have missed the point here as she appears to give both sides of any contentious aspects. I would have expected her to draw on the COLP report where DS Davidson is interviewed about the samples and asked if he or others planted any blood from SC's sample in the silencer. This was asked on the basis that he was responsible for the SoC fridge where the samples were stored.
&%+((£
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CAL makes ref to 9th Aug then moves on:
"Sheila's fingerprints and those of her parents were taken at the morturary by DSDavidson. Her hand swabs, blood samples, stomach contents, liver and urine samples, together with June's blood and urine samples, and Nevill and the twins' blood samples, were submitted to the Forensic Science Laboratory in Huntingdon that morning".
Dr V's WS confirms they were all handed to EP and stored in the fridge at Chelmsford police station. It's not clear to me when they were taken to FSS supposedly by a civilian driver.
I think CAL must have missed the point here as she appears to give both sides of any contentious aspects. I would have expected her to draw on the COLP report where DS Davidson is interviewed about the samples and asked if he or others planted any blood from SC's sample in the silencer. This was asked on the basis that he was responsible for the SoC fridge where the samples were stored.
&%+((£
Hey Holl!
I genuinely don't understand the science here, but do you think that Sheila's blood could have been planted in the baffles from either diluted, degraded blood from the buckets, or samples taken at the scene and held before they were stored in the fridge? (Bearing in mind Scipio's explanation of how difficult it is to replicate spatter on said baffles?)
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When Dr V met CAL he disagreed with his own post mortem assessment and Malcom Fletcher's:
"With hindsight Vanezis disagrees: 'I've thought about this a lot, with the benefit of another twenty-eight years' experience. If you put something hot against fairly thick clothing, you're more likely to burn the skin than the clothing because of the properties of the skin. If you pushed a rifle against someone's back, that would fit in very nicely with the gun having already been fired and the muzzle still being hot when touching the back'. He discounts the poker: 'No, I think it's the gun pressed against his skin. I don't think you can read too much into the slight difference in the shape of the marks either. They're all fairly circular, skin is not totally flat, and the way you hold something is not always the same. My guess is that those marks are the effect of the muzzle of the rifle being prodded against Nevill's pyjama top whilst he was still alive. The temperature is such that the clothing doesn't burn. You don't need a lot of heat for that. Don't forget that we're seeing those marks after death, which dries the skin and makes it darker.' "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeLsEeE0zTI&feature=youtu.be&t=4m17s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeLsEeE0zTI&feature=youtu.be&t=4m17s)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeLsEeE0zTI&feature=youtu.be&t=4m17s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeLsEeE0zTI&feature=youtu.be&t=4m17s)
I've always maintained that a multi-disciplinary approach is required. Phillip Boyce is an expert in ballistics not pathology:
http://www.forensicequity.com/philip-boyce-bsc.-msc---firearms-expert-e-6.html
In any event the tests are not on a like for like basis:
- PB heated the outside of the rifle which would produce a different result than the rifle heating up internally from firing?
- If the murders were carried out in quick succession ie over a few minutes what would the effect be in terms of temperature compared with the test which showed PB firing repeatedly and then checking the temperature?
Need a metallurgist.
Also is a sheet of pig skin capable of simulating human skin? Was NB dead or alive when he received the burns? This would surely affect the outcome of the actual burn marks?
There's a huge difference between the muzzle of a rifle heating up and a silencer both as a result of firing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tJ7heDIqXU
With the unsilenced rifle the hot gasses dissipate in the atmosphere. With a silencer fitted they largely dissipate within the silencer's expansion chamber and baffles meaning the silencer retains the heat:
http://sploid.gizmodo.com/a-silencer-cut-in-half-is-pretty-cool-indeed-1689112501
As far as I can see the tests require experts in pathology, ballistics, metallurgy, (biology?)
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Hey Holl!
I genuinely don't understand the science here, but do you think that Sheila's blood could have been planted in the baffles from either diluted, degraded blood from the buckets, or samples taken at the scene and held before they were stored in the fridge? (Bearing in mind Scipio's explanation of how difficult it is to replicate spatter on said baffles?)
Well I'm no expert puglove! I think it is unlikely the bloody water would be capable of producing the blood results: grouping along with the two enzymes and one protein. And distributing the way in which it was found within the silencer ie a flake.
DS Davidson was one of the officers present at post-mortem and was party to SC's blood sample being handed over to EP by Dr V. DS Davidson was also responsible for the SoC fridge at Chelmsford police station. As far as I can see there were no particular safeguards to prevent him or others tampering with the sample. And quite a flimsy audit trail in samples being transported from Chelmsford police station to FSS and checked in by FSS in terms of signatures on seals, quantity by way of number of samples and amounts contained within each vial.
Serological testing of blood and any results is dependent upon the quality of blood. As far as I can see any sort of heat, even prolonged ambient temperature, would render any blood sample useless. This begs the question how the blood sample/flake could have withstood the heat from the silencer (see post above) and yet still be capable of producing results for blood group along with the two enzymes and one protein &%+((£
The silencer can easily be dissembled and reassembled:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGrGCnStmrk
I haven't seen any evidence that the blood found within the silencer in terms of distribution and location corresponded exclusively with draw-back from a firearm.
COA Doc:
75. Traces of blood in the form of smears were found in three places on the outside of the moderator: on the flat surface at the muzzle end, in the knurled end and in the ridge at the gun end of the device. The blood on the outside of the moderator was confirmed to be of human origin but there were insufficient quantities to permit grouping analysis.
76. Inside the moderator, on the four or five baffles nearest to the end from which the bullet would exit, there was a considerable amount of blood. At one point blood had pooled to form a flake when it dried, and this flake was subjected to group testing.
The silencer was the only exhibit capable of producing blood results for grouping, two enzymes and one protein. Many other exhibits were tested:
- Rifle
- Carpet
- Wallpaper
None were capable of producing results for the enzymes and protein and yet the silencer was despite being exposed to considerable heat. &%+((£ &%+((£ &%+((£ &%+((£ &%+((£ &%+((£ &%+((£ &%+((£ &%+((£ &%+((£
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Well I'm no expert puglove!
@)(++(* Don't worry about it Holls... an ex is a has-been and a spurt is a drip under pressure. 8((()*/
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Am I missing something wrt the burn marks? What does it matter how or who was responsible for them?
Anything interested worth debating in the book Holls??
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...such as whether a silencer can be easily deceived or not &%+((£
or if the pillows in Wakefield are hop-filled and fluffier than those in Full Sutton so he can a better night's sleep. 8(8-))
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Am I missing something wrt the burn marks? What does it matter how or who was responsible for them?
Anything interested worth debating in the book Holls??
I had written the burn marks off as totally irrelevant. Mainly based on Dr V not mentioning them when asked by the police and defence about injuries NB sustained other than gunshot wounds. Well I guess he may have mentioned them but the info is certainly not on Blue or Red. CAL met with Dr V and he discusses his thoughts on the burns at length. Although he is unable to say with any certainty what caused them.
JB's recent defence argued that the burn marks were caused by the end of the rifle and not the silencer.
Myster and others have suggested a hot bullet exiting, ricocheting and catching NB. If this was the case I am surprised other victims didn't suffer similar burn marks *%87
If either JB or SC deliberately pushed the hot rifle/silencer into NB's back why? It has been suggested to check for life. Surely it was obvious? Again why NB and not other victims? Other suggestions have included branding, something to do with the devil. Again why NB and not other victims?
No earth shattering revelations. But lots of new bits of information eg AP confirms that JM asked him twice, post tragedy, about renting a villa in Ibiza. She also asked JB to bring June's bike to London for her to use around college.
The book just deals with the facts as they have been reported via WS's, interviews with CAL etc, etc. The author doesn't give anything away about her own personal views. If I had to hazard a guess I would say she's inclined to see JB as guilty. It will be interesting to see readers' conclusions who have no fixed ideas and know little, or nothing, about the case!
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...such as whether a silencer can be easily deceived or not &%+((£
or if the pillows in Wakefield are hop-filled and fluffier than those in Full Sutton so he can a better night's sleep. 8(8-))
CAL makes ref to JB's recent transfer to Wakefield. (I guess it's easy enough to make last minute alterations until the print button is pushed). He spent almost 15 years at Full Sutton: "He was suddenly and unexpectedly transferred to Wakefield prison".
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As I said before, the move's suspicious and definitely something to do with the 30th anniversary. For his own protection, just in case an inmate spies an opportunity to attack him as a result of seeing the contents of the two books as well, maybe?
I bet quite a few in Full Sutton and Wakefield are going to have a thorough read, even they're not available in the prison libraries. Paul Harrison's is damning of Bamber, but his conclusion that Sheila was also involved and somehow manipulated like a puppet isn't convincing at all, imo... of which more later. Although Carol Ann Lee is somewhat cagey committing herself in the Yorkshire Post, I'm sure she's certain of the truth too.
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I'm puzzled by the following:
"The blood on the nightdress was Sheila's own; both Fletcher and Vanezis agree that had she been the killer, blood from the other victims would have been detected on the garment".
How did they arrive at this conclusion? Observing the blood stains or analysing the blood? If the former why didn't Dr V (and others) seize on this straight away? If the latter I haven't seen any evidence that any of the exhibits were capable of yielding full serological results (capable of distinguishing the victims' blood from one another) other than the silencer? Some exhibits were capable of yielding blood group results. SC and June shared the same group.
The CoA doc states the rifle contained smears and splashes consistent with it being used to strike somebody who was already bleeding:
71. The rifle bore blood smearing on the barrel in the region of the fore-sight and around the mechanism and there were splashes of blood to the left side of the weapon. The appearance of the blood staining was consistent with it having been used to strike somebody who was already bleeding. On analysis the blood was found to be human blood but tests to determine grouping were unsuccessful. A "pull-through" on the barrel of the rifle was conducted for any traces of blood within the weapon. There were none.
If it's case that the perp would have sustained back spatter to his/her person then why did the rifle not contain back spatter (fine mist)? Especially given that with most shots, if not all, the rifle was much closer to the victims than the perp? Back spatter travels in the opposite direction of the bullet towards the shooter from the entrance wound but there doesn't appear to have been back spatter elsewhere? Some must surely land elsewhere eg carpet, walls, furniture etc? I'm not convinced that back spatter would result with the small calibre rifle and low velocity bullets used. By Dr V's own admission he makes ref to... with the benefit of another 28 years experience etc, etc. Forensic science and ballistics was very much in its infancy in the 1980's?
Regardless of any delays in JB coming under the spotlight it seems to me the staff and tests carried out at FSS were woefully inadequate. Not least the lack of communication between the various professionals. I imagine our American cousins laughing their socks off!
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I had written the burn marks off as totally irrelevant. Mainly based on Dr V not mentioning them when asked by the police and defence about injuries NB sustained other than gunshot wounds. Well I guess he may have mentioned them but the info is certainly not on Blue or Red. CAL met with Dr V and he discusses his thoughts on the burns at length. Although he is unable to say with any certainty what caused them.
JB's recent defence argued that the burn marks were caused by the end of the rifle and not the silencer.
Myster and others have suggested a hot bullet exiting, ricocheting and catching NB. If this was the case I am surprised other victims didn't suffer similar burn marks &%+((£
If either JB or SC deliberately pushed the hot rifle/silencer into NB's back why? It has been suggested to check for life. Surely it was obvious? Again why NB and not other victims? Other suggestions have included branding, something to do with the devil. Again why NB and not other victims?
No earth shattering revelations. But lots of new bits of information eg AP confirms that JM asked him twice, post tragedy, about renting a villa in Ibiza. She also asked JB to bring June's bike to London for her to use around college.
The book just deals with the facts as they have been reported via WS's, interviews with CAL etc, etc. The author doesn't give anything away about her own personal views. If I had to hazard a guess I would say she's inclined to see JB as guilty. It will be interesting to see readers' conclusions who have no fixed ideas and know little, or nothing, about the case!
Not a bullet, just a red-hot brass shell casing thrown from the rifle's ejection port on the right-hand side, when the last four shots were fired at Nevill's head.
Stan Jones mentioned that the burns might have been the result of prodding Nevill's back with the rifle if/when he was forced downstairs. The question remains whether it was hot enough though.
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Not a bullet, just a red-hot brass shell casing thrown from the rifle's ejection port on the right-hand side, when the last four shots were fired at Nevill's head.
Stan Jones mentioned that the burns might have been the result of prodding Nevill's back with the rifle if/when he was forced downstairs. The question remains whether it was hot enough though.
What is the temperature of the casings when ejected? Would a single casing be capable of causing the three marks? Surely some applied pressure would be required to cause a burn?
If JB then surely the silencer was in use and that would be capable of generating sufficient heat to cause the burns? I thought JB needed to keep NB away from the kitchen phone? Why would he want to force NB downstairs?
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As I said before, the move's suspicious and definitely something to do with the 30th anniversary. For his own protection, just in case an inmate spies an opportunity to attack him as a result of seeing the contents of the two books as well, maybe?
I bet quite a few in Full Sutton and Wakefield are going to have a thorough read, even they're not available in the prison libraries. Paul Harrison's is damning of Bamber, but his conclusion that Sheila was also involved and somehow manipulated like a puppet isn't convincing at all, imo... of which more later. Although Carol Ann Lee is somewhat cagey committing herself in the Yorkshire Post, I'm sure she's certain of the truth too.
Wakefield is the final move for Bamber, because of his age and status. He'd better get used to it, because he's been well and truly dumped.
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What is the temperature of the casings when ejected? Would a single casing be capable of causing the three marks? Surely some applied pressure would be required to cause a burn?
If JB then surely the silencer was in use and that would be capable of generating sufficient heat to cause the burns? I thought JB needed to keep NB away from the kitchen phone? Why would he want to force NB downstairs?
Obviously red hot, because they contain(ed) burning gunpowder. The three marks are different sizes, reducing as they move down the nape, so maybe the biggest could have been where the shell first landed, with the weight of pyjama top sufficent to hold shell in position for a second or two before it rolled on to create the remaining two marks. It's only a theory so may be totally wrong anyway.
Hot shell casings being ejected... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo)
The moderator is 22mm diameter, the largest burn mark is around 10 to 12mm diameter and circular. So not a good fit
To make it look as if Nevill had used the Kitchen phone to call his son, and so provide Bamber with a reason to call the police from his cottage.
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We've always had closure, Myster. With all respect to Holly, the tiny band of Bamber supporters have been so crazy, fixated and outlandish, they've demolished any tiny shred of credibility Bamber hoped to find while he dredged through his piles of paper.
This is an open invitation to anyone who has supported and believed in Bamber during the last 30 years. I promise not to react to your posts (unless invited) and you can tell an interested and intelligent group your evidential reasons for your support.
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Obviously red hot, because they contain(ed) burning gunpowder. The three marks are different sizes, reducing as they move down the nape, so maybe the biggest could have been where the shell first landed, with the weight of pyjama top sufficent to hold shell in position for a second or two before it rolled on to create the remaining two marks. It's only a theory so may be totally wrong anyway.
Hot shell casings being ejected... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo)
The moderator is 22mm diameter, the largest burn mark is around 10 to 12mm diameter and circular. So not a good fit
To make it look as if Nevill had used the Kitchen phone to call his son, and so provide Bamber with a reason to call the police from his cottage.
For some reason I had it in my mind the burn marks were horizontal as opposed to vertical. Now I realise I was wrong I see where you are coming from Myster. It sounds like a hot casing could provide the answer:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/endurance-training/getting-burned-hot-ejected-auto-shell-casings-397601.html
I wonder why Dr V didn't put this forward as an explanation? He must have witnessed other cases? It doesn't appear Philip Boyce put it forward either?
Surely best for JB to keep NB upstairs and stage the bedroom phone?
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A hot case causing the burns could also provide the answer re the missing case itself. Dr V seems quite sure that NB sustained the 4 gunshot wounds to his head whilst in the kitchen but only 3 cases were found. If one case found itself down NB's PJ top this might account for that? This would then mean an additional case upstairs not attributable to any gunshot wound.
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Awww Sika give the girl a break. Its excellent. CAL's research and attention to detail is outstanding. She must have worked so hard to put this together and is clearly very talented. I'm at page 163 and now moving to 7th Aug and post murders. What I'm really enjoying is that everything is presented neutrally. As I move onto SoC etc that may change.
It's definitely, by far, the best book I've read with regard to background. Whether CAL can trump Wilkes on aspects like the blood evidence and silencer remains to be seen - I will report back!
So far well done CAL 8((()*/ 8@??)(
Mine came this afternoon..... first impressions - it certainly is very good.
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For some reason I had it in my mind the burn marks were horizontal as opposed to vertical. Now I realise I was wrong I see where you are coming from Myster. It sounds like a hot casing could provide the answer:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/endurance-training/getting-burned-hot-ejected-auto-shell-casings-397601.html (http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/endurance-training/getting-burned-hot-ejected-auto-shell-casings-397601.html)
I wonder why Dr V didn't put this forward as an explanation? He must have witnessed other cases? It doesn't appear Philip Boyce put it forward either?
Surely best for JB to keep NB upstairs and stage the bedroom phone?
They might be horizontal. I thought they were vertical because they appeared that way up when first seen in the New Evidence documentary and on the net.
Getting burned by a flying shell casing is more common than I thought.
Possibly it was considered but rejected. The largest burn mark was about 10 to 15mm diameter and circular, whereas the rim diameter of an Eley shell casing is around 7 to 8mm. So a difference to be noted there. As I understand it, three shells were found in the kitchen when there should have been four - two on the floor and one marked DRH 19 on the table. The lost shell might account for the burns... but then again maybe not.
Nevill might have pushed his son out of the way to escape downstairs to the kitchen, and so scuppered any plan for JB to stage the bedroom phone.
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Lots of cases on net/youtube re burns from spent cartridge shells:
http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/hot-cartridge-case-syndrome-strikes.html
Do the bullets still exist?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14625-hot-bullet-casings-can-still-finger-the-criminal/
Interestingly as I was looking for the above it appears that fingerprints are notoriously difficult to find on firearms:
http://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/2013/10/27/why-we-dont-find-fingerprints-on-firearms/
http://www.evidencemagazine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22
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http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid4.htm
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FAO ANNA:
Thanks Holly,
I cant quite get to grips with the JB story, so if you think it is worth it, I will buy the book. I think there is more than one though.
Hi Anna re your post above. 6 authors have written exclusively about WHF:
Colin Caffell
Scott Lomax
Claire Powell
Roger Wilkes
With two newcomers: Paul Harrison and Carol Ann Lee both published this month.
Those listed above were written in the late 80's/early 90's with the exception of Lomax who wrote his book in the noughties. Each had something to offer until recently. I now feel CP's book has been superseded by CAL's. CP gave some insight into SC's life in London with interviews by friends, meeting her birth mother but this has now been covered off by CAL. Other aspects of CP's book were not so good. CC's book gives a first-hand account of the family dynamics in the Bamber family. Lomax is good for the beginner; it sets out the prosecution case in easy to understand chapters for each aspect of the case. Wilkes provides an excellent highly technical explanation of the silencer and blood evidence with diagrams to aid the readers understanding and in this regard his book trumps others incl CAL's. All just my opinion of course!
CAL's starts from the beginning and provides a lot of very interesting background info re family members going back 2/3 generations. She attempts to provide accurate portrayals of the characters and their relationship with each other. She also builds in the social history of the time and how this shaped the various individuals. She then covers off all aspects of the case: soc, police investigation, trial etc. It is all properly researched and referenced. I guess for me this was somewhat boring as it is a repeat of what I have read numerous times not only in the other books but witness statements and court documents etc. For those who are new to the case I am sure they will find it riveting and imo it is an accurate account of events and CAL can be relied upon in terms of honesty. Also she doesn't show any author bias.
I am probably not the best person to ask about PH's book as I simply do not like the man and would not trust him as far as I could throw him. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact we don't share the same views about JB. I really don't care how others view JB. PH launched on the so-called Blue forum bigging himself up as an author of 30 odd published books, involved with tv etc, etc, ex police and high court judges clerk. He said he was writing a book about WHF and wanted to join in debate. He never joined in debate using his username Mason Doyle and when others, such as Andrea, asked reasonable questions about titles of his previous book he became defensive bordering on rude. This was a red flag for me. Another poster, Reader, pulled him up about his use of the words "deliberate lies" pointing out that all lies are by definition deliberate! He makes repeated reference to "deliberate lies" in his book so much so even DI Miller who he claims to have interviewed also uses the term "deliberate lies" 8(0(* Another poster, Neil, (not NGB) said he wouldn't want to be PH's proof reader! He was then banned from the Blue forum having already been banned from this forum. He then claimed he received an anonymous letter sent to his home address containing a death threat due to the fact he was writing a book about JB that was going to be unsupportive of JB's claim he's the victim of a MoJ. Instead of reporting the matter to the police, as surely most would do, he went to the editor of a tabloid. Imo there was no death threat or anonymous letter it was simply an attempt to gain some publicity for his book.
The book itself is appalling and the contrast with CAL's could not be greater. He rants all the way through using derogatory terms about JB and anyone who believes he might be the victim of a MoJ. It contains a lot of irrelevant waffle eg about how the Krays asked PH to pen their biography...yeah right...It is fatally flawed in that PH contradicts himself throughout the book eg several times he makes ref to the police investigation and exhibits all being of an acceptable standard, no wrongdoing etc. Then he contradicts himself by saying the police were incompetent and exhibits did not meet the criteria for acceptance into a court of law. There are many factual errors eg re JB's schooling and qualifications. This example is not really important in the grand scheme of things but it shows that much of the book is very poorly researched. Of the few that he claims contributed all are either deceased or wished to remain anonymous or no one has ever heard of. My guess is in reality no one contributed. Whether he asked and they declined or he didn't even bother asking I wouldn't like to say. Then to cap it all we have yet another anonymous letter sent to his home address. In this letter he claims an ex con wrote to him telling him JB confessed to being involved in the murders but his sister, SC, was his accomplice. This is clearly a complete work of fiction.
Another book penned by PH is a sort of auto-biography and this imo is another complete work of fiction.
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FAO ANNA:
Thanks Holly,
I cant quite get to grips with the JB story, so if you think it is worth it, I will buy the book. I think there is more than one though.
Hi Anna re your post above. 6 authors have written exclusively about WHF:
Colin Caffell
Scott Lomax
Claire Powell
Roger Wilkes
With two newcomers: Paul Harrison and Carol Ann Lee both published this month.
Those listed above were written in the late 80's/early 90's with the exception of Lomax who wrote his book in the noughties. Each had something to offer until recently. I now feel CP's book has been superseded by CAL's. CP gave some insight into SC's life in London with interviews by friends, meeting her birth mother but this has now been covered off by CAL. Other aspects of CP's book were not so good. CC's book gives a first-hand account of the family dynamics in the Bamber family. Lomax is good for the beginner; it sets out the prosecution case in easy to understand chapters for each aspect of the case. Wilkes provides an excellent highly technical explanation of the silencer and blood evidence with diagrams to aid the readers understanding and in this regard his book trumps others incl CAL's. All just my opinion of course!
CAL's starts from the beginning and provides a lot of very interesting background info re family members going back 2/3 generations. She attempts to provide accurate portrayals of the characters and their relationship with each other. She also builds in the social history of the time and how this shaped the various individuals. She then covers off all aspects of the case: soc, police investigation, trial etc. It is all properly researched and referenced. I guess for me this was somewhat boring as it is a repeat of what I have read numerous times not only in the other books but witness statements and court documents etc. For those who are new to the case I am sure they will find it riveting and imo it is an accurate account of events and CAL can be relied upon in terms of honesty. Also she doesn't show any author bias.
I am probably not the best person to ask about PH's book as I simply do not like the man and would not trust him as far as I could throw him. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact we don't share the same views about JB. I really don't care how others view JB. PH launched on the so-called Blue forum bigging himself up as an author of 30 odd published books, involved with tv etc, etc, ex police and high court judges clerk. He said he was writing a book about WHF and wanted to join in debate. He never joined in debate using his username Mason Doyle and when others, such as Andrea, asked reasonable questions about titles of his previous book he became defensive bordering on rude. This was a red flag for me. Another poster, Reader, pulled him up about his use of the words "deliberate lies" pointing out that all lies are by definition deliberate! He makes repeated reference to "deliberate lies" in his book so much so even DI Miller who he claims to have interviewed also uses the term "deliberate lies" 8(0(* Another poster, Neil, (not NGB) said he wouldn't want to be PH's proof reader! He was then banned from the Blue forum having already been banned from this forum. He then claimed he received an anonymous letter sent to his home address containing a death threat due to the fact he was writing a book about JB that was going to be unsupportive of JB's claim he's the victim of a MoJ. Instead of reporting the matter to the police, as surely most would do, he went to the editor of a tabloid. Imo there was no death threat or anonymous letter it was simply an attempt to gain some publicity for his book.
The book itself is appalling and the contrast with CAL's could not be greater. He rants all the way through using derogatory terms about JB and anyone who believes he might be the victim of a MoJ. It contains a lot of irrelevant waffle eg about how the Krays asked PH to pen their biography...yeah right...It is fatally flawed in that PH contradicts himself throughout the book eg several times he makes ref to the police investigation and exhibits all being of an acceptable standard, no wrongdoing etc. Then he contradicts himself by saying the police were incompetent and exhibits did not meet the criteria for acceptance into a court of law. There are many factual errors eg re JB's schooling and qualifications. This example is not really important in the grand scheme of things but it shows that much of the book is very poorly researched. Of the few that he claims contributed all are either deceased or wished to remain anonymous or no one has ever heard of. My guess is in reality no one contributed. Whether he asked and they declined or he didn't even bother asking I wouldn't like to say. Then to cap it all we have yet another anonymous letter sent to his home address. In this letter he claims an ex con wrote to him telling him JB confessed to being involved in the murders but his sister, SC, was his accomplice. This is clearly a complete work of fiction.
Another book penned by PH is a sort of auto-biography and this imo is another complete work of fiction.
Thank you, Holly, My goodness, that was a long and very informative post. I am very grateful to you. I will buy the new book first by Carol Ann Lee and work backwards. I intend to spend a bit more time trying to study this case.
It seems that there is a lot of doubt as to JB's guilt. His sister seems a very unstable and clever person, but nobody who was entirely sane would kill their own babies, surely?
I will see if the new book by Carol ann Lee, is of any help before I say any more.
Thanks again for your help.
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Thank you, Holly, My goodness, that was a long and very informative post. I am very grateful to you. I will buy the new book first by Carol Ann Lee and work backwards. I intend to spend a bit more time trying to study this case.
It seems that there is a lot of doubt as to JB's guilt. His sister seems a very unstable and clever person, but nobody who was entirely sane would kill their own babies, surely?
I will see if the new book by Carol ann Lee, is of any help before I say any more.
Thanks again for your help.
There is no doubt as to Jeremy Bambers guilt and both books convey this message in their own way. JB has a very small but determined group of followers some of whom would like to benefit from his release.
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Thank you, Holly, My goodness, that was a long and very informative post. I am very grateful to you. I will buy the new book first by Carol Ann Lee and work backwards. I intend to spend a bit more time trying to study this case.
It seems that there is a lot of doubt as to JB's guilt. His sister seems a very unstable and clever person, but nobody who was entirely sane would kill their own babies, surely?
I will see if the new book by Carol ann Lee, is of any help before I say any more.
Thanks again for your help.
You're welcome Anna 8((()*/
I look forward to hearing your comments following on from any relevant books you might read.
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There is no doubt as to Jeremy Bambers guilt and both books convey this message in their own way. JB has a very small but determined group of followers some of whom would like to benefit from his release.
What is the definition of a "follower"? Assuming it is someone who believes JB might be the victim of a MoJ how would we determine the number of "followers"? Are the number of "followers" on the wane, static or increasing and might this change either upwards or downwards?
If JB's conviction is ever quashed how would any "followers" benefit either financially or otherwise?
Imo CAL's book leaves the reader to draw his/her own conclusion as to whether JB's conviction is safe or not.
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You're welcome Anna 8((()*/
I look forward to hearing your comments following on from any relevant books you might read.
I have just ordered CAL's book on my Kindle. It is not released until the 30th apparently.
It would have been nice to have and keep the book, but I can't hold a book or turn the pages, unfortunately.
I cant wait to read it! And then I will give you my honest opinion.
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What is the definition of a "follower"? Assuming it is someone who believes JB might be the victim of a MoJ how would we determine the number of "followers"? Are the number of "followers" on the wane, static or increasing and might this change either upwards or downwards?
If JB's conviction is ever quashed how would any "followers" benefit either financially or otherwise?
Imo CAL's book leaves the reader to draw his/her own conclusion as to whether JB's conviction is safe or not.
She sets out the entire plot describing in detail what she thinks went on so she must believe he is guilty.
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6488.msg258476#msg258476
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It is difficult to see how CAL's book could be improved on other than an author/publisher/other backers involved in such a project investing considerable resource, both in terms of finance and manpower, to make direct challenges to the prosecutions case. Eg all existing books discuss the fact that only two fingerprints were found on the rifle: one from JB and one from SC. It now appears that fingerprints are notoriously difficult to lift from firearms due to such factors as the texture of the firearm and gun oil. Much has been made about this aspect of the case incl DI Cook (a fingerprint expert with 19 years experience circa 1985) saying had SC handled the gun extensively he would have expected to find more of her prints when only one was in fact found.
As DNA testing was not around in 1985/86 the blood 'found' in the silencer was analysed based on serology: blood grouping A,B,O and proteins and enzymes. The outcome of serological analysis is dependent upon the quality of blood and any exposure to heat, even prolonged ambient temperature, is likely to render any sample useless. The prosecution claim the murders were carried out in quick succession and with the silencer fitted throughout. When a firearm is fired with a silencer attached it reduces the noise by trapping the hot gasses in the silencer's expansion chamber and internal baffles instead of the hot gasses dissipating in the atmosphere as they would with an unsilenced firearm. Therefore any blood drawn back into the silencer from SC's neck shots, referred to as 'draw-back', is extremely unlikely to have produced the results the prosecution claim as any blood in the silencer would have fried!
Other developments in science since 85/86 include neuro-science where if a baby/small child fails to form satisfactory bonds with primary caregivers this is likely to give rise to an attachment disorder with a propensity towards violence, aggression and suicide.
The case as it stands, incl all books to date, are rooted in the dark ages and imo up-to-date science and technology could throw new light on the case.
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She sets out the entire plot describing in detail what she thinks went on so she must believe he is guilty.
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6488.msg258476#msg258476
The MoS's two week serialisation bears no resemblance whatsoever to the contents of the book taken as a whole. Much of the article above is based on appendix 1 which is the prosecution's case against JB.
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I have just ordered CAL's book on my Kindle. It is not released until the 30th apparently.
It would have been nice to have and keep the book, but I can't hold a book or turn the pages, unfortunately.
I cant wait to read it! And then I will give you my honest opinion.
I was very eager to get my copy 8(*( and purchased over the counter in Waterstones as this was the fastest route. Otherwise I would have gone the e-book route. Hard copies are just clutter and extra items to dust as far as I'm concerned. I know many appreciate hard copies though. I'm sure you will not be disappointed with your purchase Anna and very much look forward to your views 8((()*/
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I was very eager to get my copy 8(*( and purchased over the counter in Waterstones as this was the fastest route. Otherwise I would have gone the e-book route. Hard copies are just clutter and extra items to dust as far as I'm concerned. I know many appreciate hard copies though. I'm sure you will not be disappointed with your purchase Anna and very much look forward to your views 8((()*/
I am rather eager to read this book as well, Holly. At the moment I am reading the court rulings for the second time, due to the fact that it is rather unclear to me, just what evidence was responsible for sending him down.
No doubt the book will help guide me through it. I will tell you what I think of the book, when I have read it. I know only very basic details of the case, which seems rather complicated, so I am hoping the book will help........
And then I can come back here and check out the many details posted and get on everybody's nerves asking questions. @)(++(*
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It's simpler than you think Anna... especially when you read all the 'No comments' and obfuscation in Jeremy Bamber's police interviews.
Holly's the one who makes it complicated! 8((()*/
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It's simpler than you think Anna... especially when you read all the 'No comments' and obfuscation in Jeremy Bamber's police interviews.
Holly's the one who makes it complicated! 8((()*/
So would most if they knew they were being lied to and deceived 8((()*/
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It is difficult to see how CAL's book could be improved on other than an author/publisher/other backers involved in such a project investing considerable resource, both in terms of finance and manpower, to make direct challenges to the prosecutions case. Eg all existing books discuss the fact that only two fingerprints were found on the rifle: one from JB and one from SC. It now appears that fingerprints are notoriously difficult to lift from firearms due to such factors as the texture of the firearm and gun oil. Much has been made about this aspect of the case incl DI Cook (a fingerprint expert with 19 years experience circa 1985) saying had SC handled the gun extensively he would have expected to find more of her prints when only one was in fact found.
As DNA testing was not around in 1985/86 the blood 'found' in the silencer was analysed based on serology: blood grouping A,B,O and proteins and enzymes. The outcome of serological analysis is dependent upon the quality of blood and any exposure to heat, even prolonged ambient temperature, is likely to render any sample useless. The prosecution claim the murders were carried out in quick succession and with the silencer fitted throughout. When a firearm is fired with a silencer attached it reduces the noise by trapping the hot gasses in the silencer's expansion chamber and internal baffles instead of the hot gasses dissipating in the atmosphere as they would with an unsilenced firearm. Therefore any blood drawn back into the silencer from SC's neck shots, referred to as 'draw-back', is extremely unlikely to have produced the results the prosecution claim as any blood in the silencer would have fried!
Other developments in science since 85/86 include neuro-science where if a baby/small child fails to form satisfactory bonds with primary caregivers this is likely to give rise to an attachment disorder with a propensity towards violence, aggression and suicide.
The case as it stands, incl all books to date, are rooted in the dark ages and imo up-to-date science and technology could throw new light on the case.
Who wrote this babble? Blood in the moderator would have fried so no conclusions could be drawn?
As for her book being so great I see nothing at all to be impressed with it adds nothing at all except some erroneous conclusions to the discourse so far as I can tell.
This seems to be quoting some of her claims:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3166636/Bamber-slaughtered-family-25-bullets-told-girlfriend-s-going-years-investigation-leading-author-tell-exactly-happened-night-White-House-Farm-massacre.html
Aside from making a lot of assumptions simply, she gets the order of the shots completely wrong. Instead of being logical she asserts Jeremy left the room with Nevill not mortally wounded and allowed him to escape to the downstairs so he could go shoot the boys 1 time each. This makes no sense but even worse would not be possible since at least 6 of June's 7 wounds were fired at her in a row along with the 4 fired into Nevill so that doesn't leave any left to attack the boys with. She resolves this problem by making the ABSURD suggestion that
June was shot 3 times when Jeremy returned upstairs from the kitchen:
"June started towards her son, who fired three more shots into her neck, head, and finally between the eyes. Jeremy then forced Sheila down beside the bed and shot her once in the throat."
The shots to June's neck and head were delivered while she was in bed not after she got up. Her head was against the pillow transferring blood to it when she was hot in the head and the bullet to her neck exited into her pillow.
Not only did she do poor research if she didn't understand such a basic issue because there is a great deal of material discussing that these shots were delivered while she was in bed, she should have been able to figure it out herself by looking at the evidence on her own.
If she can't even get something so basic right and thus screwed up the order of shots so bad- all 8 shots into the boys were fired the same time not in separate events- what else did she screw up?
The only way this book would have added anything of value would have been if she obtained more testimony that could be publicly released and other official reports etc to quote from to expand the public release. Giving her erroneous ideas of what happened doesn't anything to our knowledge about the case.
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It's simpler than you think Anna... especially when you read all the 'No comments' and obfuscation in Jeremy Bamber's police interviews.
Holly's the one who makes it complicated! 8((()*/
Hopefully it will give me an idea of what went on Myster, then I can pick it up on here. I believe this was a complicated case to start with and many suspects use the "No comment" reply.
I sure hope that the case is simple to follow, but a few things that I have read cause me doubt, as to his guilt.
Anyway I should have the book tomorrow, so I will let you know what I think when I have read it......Such a sad case 8(8-))
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Hopefully it will give me an idea of what went on Myster, then I can pick it up on here. I believe this was a complicated case to start with and many suspects use the "No comment" reply.
I sure hope that the case is simple to follow, but a few things that I have read cause me doubt, as to his guilt.
Anyway I should have the book tomorrow, so I will let you know what I think when I have read it......Such a sad case 8(8-))
Beware because some of the claims the press asserts she made are factually wrong. Others are assertions that may or may not be what happened there are multiple possibilities and only the killer knows which of the options he selected.
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Beware because some of the claims the press asserts she made are factually wrong. Others are assertions that may or may not be what happened there are multiple possibilities and only the killer knows which of the options he selected.
Oh dear, So it is not factual after all. I will have to list these faults in her book and eliminate/correct them. Thanks for the warning, Scipio. *&(+(+
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Oh dear, So it is not factual after all. I will have to list these faults in her book and eliminate/correct them. Thanks for the warning, Scipio. *&(+(+
Anna you may wish to read my post as follows:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6488.msg259043#msg259043
Unlike yourself where you have stated you are going to purchase the book, read it and then join in debate I'm afraid we have a number of posters who wish to debate the contents of the book without even bothering to read it! This tends to be a male trait I am afraid!
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Who wrote this babble? Blood in the moderator would have fried so no conclusions could be drawn?
As for her book being so great I see nothing at all to be impressed with it adds nothing at all except some erroneous conclusions to the discourse so far as I can tell.
This seems to be quoting some of her claims:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3166636/Bamber-slaughtered-family-25-bullets-told-girlfriend-s-going-years-investigation-leading-author-tell-exactly-happened-night-White-House-Farm-massacre.html
Aside from making a lot of assumptions simply, she gets the order of the shots completely wrong. Instead of being logical she asserts Jeremy left the room with Nevill not mortally wounded and allowed him to escape to the downstairs so he could go shoot the boys 1 time each. This makes no sense but even worse would not be possible since at least 6 of June's 7 wounds were fired at her in a row along with the 4 fired into Nevill so that doesn't leave any left to attack the boys with. She resolves this problem by making the ABSURD suggestion that
June was shot 3 times when Jeremy returned upstairs from the kitchen:
"June started towards her son, who fired three more shots into her neck, head, and finally between the eyes. Jeremy then forced Sheila down beside the bed and shot her once in the throat."
The shots to June's neck and head were delivered while she was in bed not after she got up. Her head was against the pillow transferring blood to it when she was hot in the head and the bullet to her neck exited into her pillow.
Not only did she do poor research if she didn't understand such a basic issue because there is a great deal of material discussing that these shots were delivered while she was in bed, she should have been able to figure it out herself by looking at the evidence on her own.
If she can't even get something so basic right and thus screwed up the order of shots so bad- all 8 shots into the boys were fired the same time not in separate events- what else did she screw up?
The only way this book would have added anything of value would have been if she obtained more testimony that could be publicly released and other official reports etc to quote from to expand the public release. Giving her erroneous ideas of what happened doesn't anything to our knowledge about the case.
May I suggest you read the book Scipio before you attempt a critique!
As I explained to Angelo yesterday the above is contained in an appendix (1). It is a "possible scenario" put together by those who worked on the original investigation including Dr Vanezis and Malcolm Fletcher; not all those consulted agreed on every point! What does this tell you 8(0(*
The book contains nothing original from the author. She has simply brought existing info together from various sources including interviews.
CAN I ASK PLEASE THAT IF POSTERS WISH TO COMMENT ON CAROL ANN LEE'S BOOK THEY READ IT BEFOREHAND - THANK YOU
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Anna you may wish to read my post as follows:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6488.msg259043#msg259043
Unlike yourself where you have stated you are going to purchase the book, read it and then join in debate I'm afraid we have a number of posters who wish to debate the contents of the book without even bothering to read it! This tends to be a male trait I am afraid!
Thanks Holly, I will read it before commenting .
I do worry however, whether or not it is factual, or somewhat dramatized, which can be misleading.
Nobody except the real killer can know, with exact detail what happened, so I guess there would have to be some supposition. So I should have the book tomorrow and all will be revealed. ?{)(**
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Thanks Holly, I will read it before commenting .
I do worry however, whether or not it is factual, or somewhat dramatized, which can be misleading.
Nobody except the real killer can know, with exact detail what happened, so I guess there would have to be some supposition. So I should have the book tomorrow and all will be revealed. ?{)(**
I agree totally. It is based on people's perceptions of others and events and this will inevitably vary from reality. There's very little input from the author. She has simply pulled together all the various info from the various sources and attempted to put it into some sort of coherent narrative.
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Who wrote this babble? Blood in the moderator would have fried so no conclusions could be drawn?
The babble is all mine in terms of the sentence above ?>)()<
The blood 'found' in the silencer was analysed based on blood serology. Unlike DNA it is susceptible to degradation and should never be exposed to heat which is likely to destroy the enzymes and proteins:
Conventional serological analysis
"Analysis of the proteins, enzymes, and antigens present in the blood. These substances are more susceptible to degradation than DNA and this type of testing usually requires a "large" sample (quarter size) in good condition for optimal results. This type of testing is rarely statistically individualizing.
"Blood evidence must never be exposed to excessive heat or humidity. If possible, the bloodstained evidence should be refrigerated until it can be transported to the crime lab. The evidence should also be taken to the lab as soon as possible. The following are guidelines, listed in order of the author's preferences, for collecting and preserving blood evidence"
http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/blood.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tJ7heDIqXU
Did Malcolm Fletcher and John Hayward have the conversation ? &%+((£
Table showing the victims' blood, enzyme and protein results:
ABO PGM EAP AK Hp
Nevill Bamber O PGM1+ EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
June Bamber A PGM1+ EAP BA AK2-1 Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell O PGM2+1+ EAP B AK1 Hp2
Nicholas Caffell O PGM2+1+ EAP B AK1 Hp2
Sheila Caffell A PGM1+ EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blood In Silencer A Nil EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Boutflour A PGM1+ EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ABO = Blood Group System
PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme) Breaks down quickly outside the body hence blood in silencer was unable to produce a reading
EAP = Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)
AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)
HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)
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http://m.yorkpress.co.uk/news/13505382.Waterstones_book_launch_for_York_crime_writer/
Wow had I known CAL was doing a Q & A session I would have ventured North. I'll get in touch with Andrea and Patti, being Yorkshire gals, and see if they can nip along with a tape.
I find the comments a little harsh. CAL is not an advocate for JB nor is she a forensic scientist or QC. She can only present the facts as they stand. As far as I can see she has been very fair throughout the book. I'm sure many who read the book will be left wondering if JB is the victim of a MoJ and might want to delve further.
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http://m.yorkpress.co.uk/news/13505382.Waterstones_book_launch_for_York_crime_writer/ (http://m.yorkpress.co.uk/news/13505382.Waterstones_book_launch_for_York_crime_writer/)
Wow had I known CAL was doing a Q & A session I would have ventured North. I'll get in touch with Andrea and Patti, being Yorkshire gals, and see if they can nip along with a tape.
I find the comments a little harsh. CAL is not an advocate for JB nor is she a forensic scientist or QC. She can only present the facts as they stand. As far as I can see she has been very fair throughout the book. I'm sure many who read the book will be left wondering if JB is the victim of a MoJ and might want to delve further.
What do you expect from members of Bamber's cranky fan club, Holly? Shouldn't those misprints in their comments read - "Anyone who wishes to swallow baloney can go to www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk (http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk?)"?
Actually, I'm quite impressed by the book after a swift thumb-through this evening... (all thanks to S****'s extraordinary generosity! I still owe you something, hun!)
There are several mistakes concerning the shooting sequence, and still no agreement amongst the experts as to the cause of those burn marks - rifle end (even though it didn't get hot enough by firing many times) or a poker. No mention that a stray shell-casing bouncing off the mantelpiece wall might have been responsible.
I reckon CAL's book is a suitable replacement for Wilkes, Powell and Caffell, now that they're all oop. A pity that it's not linen-bound like my copy of Wilkes which has taken quite a hammering without any pages falling out. Not so with the other two.
Anna's in for quite a read.
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Hello: I hope you don't mind me joining the discussion? I had a theory or two I wondered if you had discussed, so joined to ask you. One is about the burn marks, but I'm not sure if this is the thread to post it on as it's about the book?
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Hello: I hope you don't mind me joining the discussion? I had a theory or two I wondered if you had discussed, so joined to ask you. One is about the burn marks, but I'm not sure if this is the thread to post it on as it's about the book?
Hi Passer-by. 8((()*/
You could try looking here first...http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=292.0 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=292.0)
... and then post at the end of page 8.
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Hi Passer-by. 8((()*/
You could try looking here first...http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=292.0 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=292.0)
... and then post at the end of page 8.
Ho ho!! Good luck with that!
A massive welcome, and I hope that you find what you're looking for. May I recommend Myster, Holly Goodhead and scipio usmc for excellent technical detail, Andrea for common sense and the voice of reason, and Tim Invictus and me for naughtiness and fun! ?>)()<
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Andrea's still searching for Keith Moon... Tim's gone AWOL, probably Yeti-hunting... and you, dearest, need to open up the boarded-up pub again.
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Thank you for the welcome: I've read a lot of your discussions already! ;-)
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Andrea's still searching for Keith Moon... Tim's gone AWOL, probably Yeti-hunting... and you, dearest, need to open up the boarded-up pub again.
Can we have a free house with mirco brewery and Nobby's Nuts? 8)-)))
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So the question for those members who have read the book is, what if anything has Carol Ann Lee brought to the case in terms of evidence?
I might be cynical but surely had there been anything at all which supports Jerry's claim to innocence we would have heard it by now?
The silence is deafening!
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So the question for those members who have read the book is, what if anything has Carol Ann Lee brought to the case in terms of evidence?
I might be cynical but surely had there been anything at all which supports Jerry's claim to innocence we would have heard it by now?
The silence is deafening!
I don't think CAL ever claimed any earth shattering new revelations? The author/book meets her/its objectives as stated on the covers flap? I don't think it was ever possible to prove JB's "innocence" and doubt it ever will be. Criminal trials are based on guilty beyond reasonable doubt or not guilty. Convictions are quashed on the basis they are unsafe not necessarily that the defendant is innocent.
The book provides a detailed analysis of all the main characters with their backgrounds and sets out everything clearly and fairly.
I really need to re-read the book but based on my first reading my only criticism is that CAL has implied that the blood samples were sent to the lab directly from the pathologist. This is incorrect the samples were handed to EP and held in the SoC fridge at Chelmsford police station. DS Davidson was asked during his COLP interview whether he or others planted blood in the silencer. According to CAL's book JB suggested to Geoffrey Rivlin blood was deliberately planted in the silencer. There was plenty of scope for CAL to include a potential weakness in the plank of the prosecutions case against JB but she failed to do so. Why? Genuine oversight or wanted to hold back for whatever reason(s) &%+((£
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A fascinating book, which seems to have been extremely well researched.
I was pleasantly surprised at the inclusion of the wartime background of Neville and June.
A lot of experts have helped in the compilation of this book and it reflects in the accuracy and very realistic storyline therein .
Carol has written this powerful yet sympathetic book, without portraying any conclusions of her own feelings in the case.
It is up to the reader to decide from the evidence and history of the case alone, what they themselves conclude is the most likely scenario.
I sensed, blackmail, suffering, control and threats in the book. All to achieve ultimate goals……..Financial superiority, power, control and in the case of Sheila and Jeremy, Love.
Being adopted back then was a very lonely place to be. You may feel a sense of belonging with your adoptive parents, but other family members could see you as a threat and not belonging to their bloodline. Only treating you as family to please or accommodate the adoptive parents.(while they were around)
I am not really interested in gory photos and how a gun works.
The way this story is set out to explain what happened, is all that is necessary for me, to know what occurred (that we know of, that is)
I admit that I knew very little about this case, so having it written in such an easy to imagine, manner, made it very easy to follow.
I made notes on a word processor page, as I read it and a lot of my conclusions proved to be correct as I continued my journey down the story.
Firstly I felt extremely sorry for the way that Sheila and Jeremy were controlled in every manner of how they conducted their lives and how they were kept apart as a family. They probably didn’t fit in with all the charity work than June had to be seen doing.
I don’t believe they were adopted out of love.
I very soon came to the conclusion that it was almost impossible for Sheila to have committed the murders, but I don’t believe that Jeremy did it either, or if he did it was not alone…….
Lots more I can say, but I would spoil the book for others and there are still family members of June and Neville to consider, before I share my thoughts of what I think may have happened.
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A fascinating book, which seems to have been extremely well researched.
I was pleasantly surprised at the inclusion of the wartime background of Neville and June.
A lot of experts have helped in the compilation of this book and it reflects in the accuracy and very realistic storyline therein .
Carol has written this powerful yet sympathetic book, without portraying any conclusions of her own feelings in the case.
It is up to the reader to decide from the evidence and history of the case alone, what they themselves conclude is the most likely scenario.
I sensed, blackmail, suffering, control and threats in the book. All to achieve ultimate goals……..Financial superiority, power, control and in the case of Sheila and Jeremy, Love.
Being adopted back then was a very lonely place to be. You may feel a sense of belonging with your adoptive parents, but other family members could see you as a threat and not belonging to their bloodline. Only treating you as family to please or accommodate the adoptive parents.(while they were around)
I am not really interested in gory photos and how a gun works.
The way this story is set out to explain what happened, is all that is necessary for me, to know what occurred (that we know of, that is)
I admit that I knew very little about this case, so having it written in such an easy to imagine, manner, made it very easy to follow.
I made notes on a word processor page, as I read it and a lot of my conclusions proved to be correct as I continued my journey down the story.
Firstly I felt extremely sorry for the way that Sheila and Jeremy were controlled in every manner of how they conducted their lives and how they were kept apart as a family. They probably didn’t fit in with all the charity work than June had to be seen doing.
I don’t believe they were adopted out of love.
I very soon came to the conclusion that it was almost impossible for Sheila to have committed the murders, but I don’t believe that Jeremy did it either, or if he did it was not alone…….
Lots more I can say, but I would spoil the book for others and there are still family members of June and Neville to consider, before I share my thoughts of what I think may have happened.
Thanks Anna. Interesting review from someone who hitherto knew little about the case. I've read so few books I had no idea what to write for a review but I had a go and uploaded it to the Waterstones site (below). I think you might start to find yourself torn between the McCann and WHF boards!
It seems a strange adoptive family even stranger than my own 8(0(* Firstly June suffers a breakdown triggered by her decision to adopt SC requiring in-patient psychiatric care. Upon returning to WHF a full-time nanny, Julia Saye, is employed to care for SC. At 10 yoa SC is sent to boarding school miles from WHF and enrolled mid-term which can be difficult for a child/student in terms of slotting in. During the summer of 1973 June asks AE to find SC some chores and teach her to cook. *%87
https://www.waterstones.com/books/reviews/isbn/9780283072215#review-70301
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Thanks Anna. Interesting review from someone who hitherto knew little about the case. I've read so few books I had no idea what to write for a review but I had a go and uploaded it to the Waterstones site (below). I think you might start to find yourself torn between the McCann and WHF boards!
It seems a strange adoptive family even stranger than my own 8(0(* Firstly June suffers a breakdown triggered by her decision to adopt SC requiring in-patient psychiatric care. Upon returning to WHF a full-time nanny, Julia Saye, is employed to care for SC. At 10 yoa SC is sent to boarding school miles from WHF and enrolled mid-term which can be difficult for a child/student in terms of slotting in. During the summer of 1973 June asks AE to find SC some chores and teach her to cook. *%87
https://www.waterstones.com/books/reviews/isbn/9780283072215#review-70301
Nice review Holly.
I read a lot, but rarely write reviews.
I might be around on here a bit more...as you say.
Poor Jeremy has made so many applications for reviews on his prison tariff and appeals, only to have them all turned down.
The police bungled once they certainly cant risk being accused again, so Jeremy hasn't got a snowball in hell's chance.
The Silencer evidence should never have gone to court since it was in possession of third parties before it was even taken by the police. DNA from sheila's mum proved that it was most unlikely to be sheila's blood.
The window that could be opened from outside -Jeremy admitted to having used it in the past. Ann knew about it and IIRC Julie did too?. So how many others knew of the windows?
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Can we have a free house with mirco brewery and Nobby's Nuts? 8)-)))
Oh yes!
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Thanks Anna. Interesting review from someone who hitherto knew little about the case. I've read so few books I had no idea what to write for a review but I had a go and uploaded it to the Waterstones site (below). I think you might start to find yourself torn between the McCann and WHF boards!
It seems a strange adoptive family even stranger than my own 8(0(* Firstly June suffers a breakdown triggered by her decision to adopt SC requiring in-patient psychiatric care. Upon returning to WHF a full-time nanny, Julia Saye, is employed to care for SC. At 10 yoa SC is sent to boarding school miles from WHF and enrolled mid-term which can be difficult for a child/student in terms of slotting in. During the summer of 1973 June asks AE to find SC some chores and teach her to cook. &%+((£
https://www.waterstones.com/books/reviews/isbn/9780283072215#review-70301
I knew that your review would be brilliant. And it is. I can't argue with you anymore, Holl, because you have your ideas, and I have mine. If I thought for a moment that Bamber was innocent, I would never sleep again. But I rest easy.
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I knew that your review would be brilliant. And it is. I can't argue with you anymore, Holl, because you have your ideas, and I have mine. If I thought for a moment that Bamber was innocent, I would never sleep again. But I rest easy.
And well done you, passer-by. Joined the forum, not a clue, 3 posts later, Bamber is as innocent as a new-born lamb.
Next time you join this forum, call yourself Paul Daniels.
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I knew that your review would be brilliant. And it is. I can't argue with you anymore, Holl, because you have your ideas, and I have mine. If I thought for a moment that Bamber was innocent, I would never sleep again. But I rest easy.
How many people would have to be involved with the conspiracy, Holl?
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Let's face it, Jeremy was a damaged child from the off, things only got worse as he got older.
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Nice review Holly.
I read a lot, but rarely write reviews.
I might be around on here a bit more...as you say.
Poor Jeremy has made so many applications for reviews on his prison tariff and appeals, only to have them all turned down.
The police bungled once they certainly cant risk being accused again, so Jeremy hasn't got a snowball in hell's chance.
The Silencer evidence should never have gone to court since it was in possession of third parties before it was even taken by the police. DNA from sheila's mum proved that it was most unlikely to be sheila's blood.
The window that could be opened from outside -Jeremy admitted to having used it in the past. Ann knew about it and IIRC Julie did too?. So how many others knew of the windows?
Thanks Anna.
Yes nothing is straight-forward!
Had to look up IIRC. Thought it was abbreviated Latin but I see it is short for 'if I recall correctly' @)(++(*
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I knew that your review would be brilliant. And it is. I can't argue with you anymore, Holl, because you have your ideas, and I have mine. If I thought for a moment that Bamber was innocent, I would never sleep again. But I rest easy.
Thanks pugs.
We haven't argued. We had a little spat once when the moon was full and our monthly cycles collided. That was down to gravitational pull and hormones. 8((()*/
I really couldn't give a flying fig if others don't share my views on JB.
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If Carol Ann Lee intended to write a non judgemental book about the White House Murders then the following headline was a huge mistake.
From The Mail on Sunday
Carol Ann Lee, "Now I know Bamber did it"
(http://i.imgur.com/NyXRT[Name removed].jpg?1)
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3157376/Now-know-Bamber-did-Crime-writer-s-definitive-verdict-public-schoolboy-slaughtered-entire-family-30-years-ago-tried-frame-dead-sister-protested-innocence.html
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I've seen lots of discrepancies between the MoS articles and CAL's book excerpts. The MoS are quoting CAL as believing JB guilty but in her book excerpts she appears balanced, objective and impartial allowing the reader to draw his/her own conclusion:
http://www.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/reader/9780283072222?fromssl=true
Holly, is the link you provided the actual book?
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If Carol Ann Lee intended to write a non judgemental book about the White House Murders then the following headline was a huge mistake.
From The Mail on Sunday
Carol Ann Lee, "Now I know Bamber did it"
(http://i.imgur.com/NyXRT[Name removed].jpg?1)
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3157376/Now-know-Bamber-did-Crime-writer-s-definitive-verdict-public-schoolboy-slaughtered-entire-family-30-years-ago-tried-frame-dead-sister-protested-innocence.html
The 2 week serialisation in the MoS is not representative of the book as a whole. It's just typical tabloid trash. I doubt CAL/her publishers had much say in it. Perhaps it was done on a commercial basis to recover costs in bringing the book to market.
She makes it quite clear here she will not be drawn into sharing her own views:
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/features/features/13520876.Did_Jeremy_Bamber_kill_his_family_30_years_ago__Make_up_your_own_mind__says_local_author_Carol_Ann_Lee/
Having read the book and articles such as above in the York Press I wouldn't really like to say what her views are. I think the fact that she has overlooked (?) that the victims' blood samples were handed to EP and not sent direct to FSS (Page 214 of CAL's book) and then not commented on the COLP inquiry which tackles the thorny issue of deliberate contamination is odd *%87 Especially when there can be little doubt that the silencer was a key exhibit in the prosecution case against JB. Page 339 and 340 JB discusses with Geoffrey Rivlin QC the possibility of deliberation contamination which GR writes off as "too far-fetched to pursue". But was it? Imo it is the most likely explanation as to how SC's blood type/group was 'found' in the silencer.
CAL also makes much of JB's claims that discussions were taking place on the eve of 6th Aug about the future of the twins ie foster care etc. CAL could have introduced the witness statement of Colin's mother, Mrs Doris Brencher, where she confirms that weeks before the murders herself and June had a telephone conversation where June stated she was concerned that the twins would be taken and placed in foster care. This lends some support to JB's claims yet CAL failed to include it.
I would have to re-read the book again very carefully to see if I can spot anything else.
Mrs Brencher's witness statement is on Blue.
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She would have been paid handsomely for that article so she would have to had authorised it beforehand.
What about the Saintsbury link?
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Holly, is the link you provided the actual book?
Myster provided the link but yes it is an excerpt from the actual book.
The MoS article is taken largely from an appendix within the book which is perhaps why it is an appendix 8(0(* The appendix is based on the prosecution case against JB. It was probably based on a commercial decision between CAL, her agent and publishers to recover initial costs in bringing the book to market plus some free advertising. I guess it beats anonymous death threats 8(0(*
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/524489/Mass-killer-Jeremy-Bamber-s-threat-to-Scots-author-Harrison
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http://www.iaindale.com/posts/2013/09/22/how-newspaper-book-serialisations-work
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Myster provided the link but yes it is an excerpt from the actual book.
The MoS article is taken largely from an appendix within the book which is perhaps why it is an appendix 8(0(* The appendix is based on the prosecution case against JB. It was probably based on a commercial decision between CAL, her agent and publishers to recover initial costs in bringing the book to market plus some free advertising. I guess it beats anonymous death threats 8(0(*
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/524489/Mass-killer-Jeremy-Bamber-s-threat-to-Scots-author-Harrison
Not to mention anonymous letters from someone in Brentwood. @)(++(*
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Not to mention anonymous letters from someone in Brentwood. @)(++(*
Quite @)(++(*
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How many people would have to be involved with the conspiracy, Holl?
I don't believe in conspiracy theories. If JB is the victim of a MoJ it will be no different from any of the other high profile MoJ's which often feature:
- Fabrication of evidence
- Unreliable prosecution witnesses
- Poor defence
- Misdirection by judge
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11075284/When-innocent-men-go-to-jail-miscarriages-of-justice-in-Britain.html
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Let's face it, Jeremy was a damaged child from the off, things only got worse as he got older.
When you say "off" what point in time are you referring to?
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When you say "off" what point in time are you referring to?
The moment the bond with his natural mother was broken.
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The moment the bond with his natural mother was broken.
But SC's bond with her natural mother was also broken?
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But SC's bond with her natural mother was also broken?
Yes...that too.
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Holly, from earlier...
She would have been paid handsomely for that article so she would have to had authorised it beforehand.
I have some difficulty believing she would authorise the serialisation in such terms given her neutrality in the book.
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But SC's bond with her natural mother was also broken?
I believe the birth Mothers in no way affected how these kids turned out. And as for corruption in evidence. It only takes a few persistent, determined and powerful people to change the course of Justice. Especially against someone who had no family left to support him.
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I don't believe in conspiracy theories. If JB is the victim of a MoJ it will be no different from any of the other high profile MoJ's which often feature:
- Fabrication of evidence
- Unreliable prosecution witnesses
- Poor defence
- Misdirection by judge
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11075284/When-innocent-men-go-to-jail-miscarriages-of-justice-in-Britain.html
No, sorry, I meant that there must have been a conspiracy if blood was planted in the silencer. How many people do you think would have been involved?
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No, sorry, I meant that there must have been a conspiracy if blood was planted in the silencer. How many people do you think would have been involved?
I will post my reply here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6514.0
or John will be putting me on the naughty step 8)><(
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Holly, from earlier...
I have some difficulty believing she would authorise the serialisation in such terms given her neutrality in the book.
Well perhaps she didn't authorise it? CAL cant get a book to market without others eg agent, publisher? Perhaps the publisher said we are going to give you X in advance but we need to recover our initial costs quickly and get X amount of sales in 10 weeks and we've arranged this deal with MoS sign here... &%+((£
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Carol Ann Lee takes the opportunity in her book to refer to Jeremy's letters to her. One thing which sticks out is his claim to be speaking on Sheilas behalf. I find that rather bizarre given what transpired and leads me to the conclusion that the guy has lost the plot, literally!!
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Well 30 years in the slammer with nothing to do except re-examine autopsy photos of his family and chat to serial killers isn't like to lead to many other plots in his head, it's a wonder he's kept it together as well as he has and isn't chatting to his friend, Mr Key.
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The following link seems fairly reliable in explaining how the Amazon's bestsellers rank works:
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/8-things-people-dont-know-amazons-bestsellers-rank-sales-rank/
In a nutshell the rank is based on volume of sales relative to all other sales in that particular category.
Carol Ann Lee's current position = 654
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Murders-White-House-Farm/dp/0283072210
Paul Harrison's current position = 92,205
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Deviant-Jeremy-Bamber-White-Murders/dp/190409192X
You need to move down a fair way on the above links to get to the best-selling rank.
As a guide Amazon have produced the following based on best seller rank and typical sales per day based on the rank:
Amazon Best Seller Rank 50,000 to 100,000 – selling close to 1 book a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 10,000 to 50,000 – selling 5 to 15 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 5,500 to 10,000 – selling 15 to 25 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 3,000 to 5,500 – selling25 to 70 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 1,500 to 3,000 – selling70 to 100 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 750 to 1,500 – selling 100 to 120 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 500 to 750 – selling120 to 175 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 350 to 500 – selling175 to 250 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 200 to 350 – selling 250 to 500 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 35 to 200 -selling500 to 2,000 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 20 to 35 – selling 2,000 to 3,000 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank of 5 to 20 – selling3,000 to 4,000 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank of 1 to 5 – selling4,000+ books a day.
So according to the above Carol Ann Lee is selling between 120 - 175 books a day; Paul Harrison is selling 1 book per day.
Well done Carol Ann Lee 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
I wonder which author will be top of the charts next week &%+((£
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It's a toss-up between Harper Lee's 'Go Set A Watchman' and Mary Berry's 'Absolute Favourites'. 8((()*/
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... or Carol Ann Lee, if you've got anything to do with it. *%87
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... such as a gushing OTT review. 8**8:/:
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Happy to see that you agree with the previous reviewer though... i.e. that Bamber is guilty as charged. 8((()*/
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It's a toss-up between Harper Lee's 'Go Set A Watchman' and Mary Berry's 'Absolute Favourites'. 8((()*/
The 654 figure I quoted above for CAL is relative across all sales all categories. Within her own category (denoted by # she is #11 and #19:
#11 in Books > Biography > True Crime
#19 in Books > Society, Politics & Philosophy > True Accounts
8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
https://chrismcmullen.wordpress.com/2014/10/18/amazon-com-sales-rank-how-does-it-work-research-based/
https://www.chrismcmullen.com/
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... or Carol Ann Lee, if you've got anything to do with it. *%87
Why not? Its a good book: fair and balanced account.
Are you going to share your views Mr Myster?
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... such as a gushing OTT review. 8**8:/:
I assume you are talking about the review on Amazon by Hollyg as my review on Waterstones by Holly Goodhead could hardly be described as "gushing"?
Hollyg on Amazon is nothing to do with me.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/pdp/profile/A154XV8P86HRFC/ref=cm_cr_pr_pdp?ie=UTF8
I believe there was a poster on Blue, maybe here too, by the name of Holly Girl?
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The 654 figure I quoted above for CAL is relative across all sales all categories. Within her own category (denoted by # she is #11 and #19:
#11 in Books > Biography > True Crime
#19 in Books > Society, Politics & Philosophy > True Accounts
8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
https://chrismcmullen.wordpress.com/2014/10/18/amazon-com-sales-rank-how-does-it-work-research-based/
https://www.chrismcmullen.com/
I'm not sure if the Amazon rank figures are real time or based on up-dates at set intervals. Anyway for a CAL V PH comparison based on category here are PH's figures at this moment in time:
#560 in Books > Biography > True Crime
#855 in Books > Society, Politics & Philosophy > True Accounts
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I assume you are talking about the review on Amazon by Hollyg as my review on Waterstones by Holly Goodhead could hardly be described as "gushing"?
Hollyg on Amazon is nothing to do with me.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/pdp/profile/A154XV8P86HRFC/ref=cm_cr_pr_pdp?ie=UTF8 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/pdp/profile/A154XV8P86HRFC/ref=cm_cr_pr_pdp?ie=UTF8)
I believe there was a poster on Blue, maybe here too, by the name of Holly Girl?
Why not? Its a good book: fair and balanced account.
Are you going to share your views Mr Myster?
That's all we need... a Holly doppleganger! Odd that her review confirms what you think about serialisations? &%+((£
All that's missing now is the latest review from the fella who hobnobbed with Kublai Khan. @)(++(*
I've already said I think CAL's effort is a worthy successor to three other out-of-print ones, but surely it doesn't cost that much more to have a book casebound?
Pages are falling out like Autumn leaves already! 8(8-))
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That's all we need... a Holly doppleganger! Odd that her review confirms what you think about serialisations? &%+((£
All that's missing now is the latest review from the fella who hobnobbed with Kublai Khan. @)(++(*
I've already said I think CAL's effort is a worthy successor to three other out-of-print ones, but surely it doesn't cost that much more to have a book casebound?
Pages are falling out like Autumn leaves already! 8(8-))
If you look at Hollyg's other reviews I think it's fairly obvious we are not one and the same:
- She reads books I rarely do as mentioned on here loads of times.
- Her children are much younger than mine based on the gifts she has purchased for them.
- We do both suffer from rosacea (she reviewed some cream) but mine is so mild I don't even bother concealing it with anything (I just have a pinky complexion) and Hollyg's seems quite severe. Perhaps she is Celtic too as it tends to be prevalent in Celts.
- I rarely buy goods online. I only purchase services online eg tickets, hotels, flights.
Anyone who follows the case and has read any of CAL's previous books (or excerpts in my case) will know that she doesn't display author bias in her writing so it was obvious to me, and I assume Hollyg, that the MoS articles were just adaptations.
Yes I forgot your comments re CAL's book 8((()*/
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/history/595845/Inside-the-mind-of-a-murderer-Carol-Ann-Lee-Jeremy-Bamber
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/history/595845/Inside-the-mind-of-a-murderer-Carol-Ann-Lee-Jeremy-Bamber (http://www.express.co.uk/news/history/595845/Inside-the-mind-of-a-murderer-Carol-Ann-Lee-Jeremy-Bamber)
Interesting chat. Her last words "His entire focus is on getting out." are spot on!... to which should be added ", no matter how much he twists the truth and manipulates to achieve it".
JB thinks he's done more than enough time in jail, and is prepared to accuse everyone except himself of wrongdoing, whether it's his sister, Essex Police, or the extended family. People should take every word he utters with a large shovelful of salt.
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I would expect anyone who has had a long prison sentence to be manipulative as it is the only way to exert influence with limited physical range of power: it is also a modus operandi that we learn from those around us (everyone manipulates to some extent). The outwardly respectable middle-class family hiding it's dirty washing from view and not using physical punishments is also highly likely to use manipulation as a means of control: telling SC she was the devil's child was, effectively, an attempt to manipulate her through fear. So I think that is a characteristic to be expected.
But about the cruel to animals: not so good at all, anyone got any more on that? I thought he was anti-blood sports and both JM and AE referred to this?
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I would expect anyone who has had a long prison sentence to be manipulative as it is the only way to exert influence with limited physical range of power: it is also a modus operandi that we learn from those around us (everyone manipulates to some extent). The outwardly respectable middle-class family hiding it's dirty washing from view and not using physical punishments is also highly likely to use manipulation as a means of control: telling SC she was the devil's child was, effectively, an attempt to manipulate her through fear. So I think that is a characteristic to be expected.
But about the cruel to animals: not so good at all, anyone got any more on that? I thought he was anti-blood sports and both JM and AE referred to this?
I'm not condoning the OCP break-in but I have often thought JB was peeved that he apparently had the same role and responsibilities as AE and yet received less remuneration. He discussed this with his mother, June, who told him his remuneration would be adjusted when he learned to live properly! I do not know what was meant by this but I can quite imagine it was a reference to JM staying at JB's pad which June did not agree with. As far as I can see JB was not breaking the law, other than the cannabis growing which I doubt June was aware of, so as a twenty something man it was up to JB how he chose to live his life. So yes I agree there was a lot of attempting to control SC and JB by way of religion and money.
First time I heard of JB being cruel to animals was in CAL's book. I think its VERY important to consider the source. Apparently the claim was made by Robert Carr whose father Jim was employed by OCP. RB had Jim Carr speak with his son Rob Carr who at the time was a serving officer in the MET and check out the investigation with his contacts in EP! Another Carr claimed she by chance met JB in New Zealand and again didn't have a good word to say about him. The following might be of help:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=580.msg17683#msg17683
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Thanks for the link: it was very interesting, and the man was probably well-meaning but what a shocking level of indiscretion all round - for all they knew at that stage it could have been another family member.
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Interesting chat. Her last words "His entire focus is on getting out." are spot on!... to which should be added ", no matter how much he twists the truth and manipulates to achieve it".
JB thinks he's done more than enough time in jail, and is prepared to accuse everyone except himself of wrongdoing, whether it's his sister, Essex Police, or the extended family. People should take every word he utters with a large shovelful of salt.
The books also refers to JB wanting to clear his name and prove his innocence. If he's a victim of a MoJ of course he's going to fight his corner. Otherwise the alternative might ending up mentally ill like Stefan Kiszko.
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A review from a gent who I seem to think we've heard about before *%87 ...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/customer-reviews/RLUK5SAP42DY7/ref=cm_cr_pr_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0283072210 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/customer-reviews/RLUK5SAP42DY7/ref=cm_cr_pr_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0283072210)
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A review from a gent who I seem to think we've heard about before *%87 ...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/customer-reviews/RLUK5SAP42DY7/ref=cm_cr_pr_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0283072210 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/customer-reviews/RLUK5SAP42DY7/ref=cm_cr_pr_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0283072210)
He certainly isn't backwards about coming forwards that man, is he? He seems rather like the plumber who let people think he was a mercenary - it cuts a certain dash at the bar whenever it's someone's round.
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Some of the reviews seem a bit infantile eg one has given one star and seemed rather annoyed that the call from NB to EP wasn't included! The reviewer even posted the log in his/her review! I'm sure CAL looked into this aspect of the case and found there was no evidence to support a call from NB to EP.
As far as I'm concerned it's difficult to see how the book could be improved on other than a completely different style eg commissioning new tests to counter the prosecutions case and grilling those interviewed Jeremy Paxman style. CAL has relayed the facts as they currently stand and appears to have taken a softly, softly approach during interviews by recording the interviewee's comments as opposed to probing and disturbing. I had to read parts 2 or 3 times but it's clear there are lots of inconsistencies which CAL brought to the fore but didn't push it further.
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A reminder that a digital copy of the book is available on request for research purposes. Mods can download directly from restricted area.
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A reminder that a digital copy of the book is available on request for research purposes. Mods can download directly from restricted area.
It is all over kindle, not sure why it might be an issue in mother country.
It is an essential resource for case students, but in a 100 years CAL will be studied by sociologists.
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Copyright, my dear boy... as Malcolm Mugg used to say.
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I just paid kindle price from NZ and read it, essential material. I have quoted tracts here and elsewhere to illustrate IMPORTANT points.
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I just paid kindle price from NZ and read it, essential material. I have quoted tracts here and elsewhere to illustrate IMPORTANT points.
Yes that's fine, you've purchased the electronic version and quoted excerpts for discussion. If you upload the entire electronic version for others to read that might be a problem.
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Yes that's fine, you've purchased the electronic version and quoted excerpts for discussion. If you upload the entire electronic version for others to read that might be a problem.
Kindle highlights makes it difficult to copy long extracts and all formatting disappears, but I wasn't clear if the book can be purchased in UK via Kindle.
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Kindle highlights makes it difficult to copy long extracts and all formatting disappears, but I wasn't clear if the book can be purchased in UK via Kindle.
It can.
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I bought it hardback on Amazon for around a fiver. Not worth cheap skating on it when you can pick it up at that price.
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I bought it hardback on Amazon for around a fiver. Not worth cheap skating on it when you can pick it up at that price.
I got the hardback and the Kindle because you can do quick searches on the Kindle version.
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I got mine for free, gratis, zilch... so there! mm, mmmm!.. ?{)(** and I still can't thank her enough. 8(8-))
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Not worth starting another topic for, but here's a taster of an audiobook to come - 'Blood Relations' by Roger Wilkes...
https://soundcloud.com/hachetteaudiouk/blood-relations-by-roger-wilkes-read-by-colin-mace-audiobook-extract (https://soundcloud.com/hachetteaudiouk/blood-relations-by-roger-wilkes-read-by-colin-mace-audiobook-extract)
and a future textbook by former High Court judge, Sir Richard Henriques who was involved in Jeremy Bamber's 2002 appeal...
https://www.hachette.co.uk/titles/richard-henriques/from-crime-to-crime/9781529333503/ (https://www.hachette.co.uk/titles/richard-henriques/from-crime-to-crime/9781529333503/)