Author Topic: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee  (Read 74342 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #210 on: July 28, 2015, 03:41:28 PM »
There is no doubt as to Jeremy Bambers guilt and both books convey this message in their own way.  JB has a very small but determined group of followers some of whom would like to benefit from his release.

What is the definition of a "follower"?  Assuming it is someone who believes JB might be the victim of a MoJ how would we determine the number of "followers"?  Are the number of "followers" on the wane, static or increasing and might this change either upwards or downwards?

If JB's conviction is ever quashed how would any "followers" benefit either financially or otherwise?

Imo CAL's book leaves the reader to draw his/her own conclusion as to whether JB's conviction is safe or not. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Anna

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #211 on: July 28, 2015, 04:04:36 PM »
You're welcome Anna  8((()*/

I look forward to hearing your comments following on from any relevant books you might read.

I have just ordered CAL's book on my Kindle. It is not released until the 30th apparently.
It would have been nice to have and keep the book, but I can't hold a book or turn the pages, unfortunately.
I cant wait to read it! And then I will give you my honest opinion.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Angelo222

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #212 on: July 28, 2015, 04:05:45 PM »
What is the definition of a "follower"?  Assuming it is someone who believes JB might be the victim of a MoJ how would we determine the number of "followers"?  Are the number of "followers" on the wane, static or increasing and might this change either upwards or downwards?

If JB's conviction is ever quashed how would any "followers" benefit either financially or otherwise?

Imo CAL's book leaves the reader to draw his/her own conclusion as to whether JB's conviction is safe or not.

She sets out the entire plot describing in detail what she thinks went on so she must believe he is guilty.

www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6488.msg258476#msg258476
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 04:13:06 PM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #213 on: July 28, 2015, 04:18:28 PM »
It is difficult to see how CAL's book could be improved on other than an author/publisher/other backers involved in such a project investing considerable resource, both in terms of finance and manpower, to make direct challenges to the prosecutions case.  Eg all existing books discuss the fact that only two fingerprints were found on the rifle: one from JB and one from SC.  It now appears that fingerprints are notoriously difficult to lift from firearms due to such factors as the texture of the firearm and gun oil.  Much has been made about this aspect of the case incl DI Cook (a fingerprint expert with 19 years experience circa 1985) saying had SC handled the gun extensively he would have expected to find more of her prints when only one was in fact found. 

As DNA testing was not around in 1985/86 the blood 'found' in the silencer was analysed based on serology: blood grouping A,B,O and proteins and enzymes.  The outcome of serological analysis is dependent upon the quality of blood and any exposure to heat, even prolonged ambient temperature, is likely to render any sample useless.  The prosecution claim the murders were carried out in quick succession and with the silencer fitted throughout.  When a firearm is fired with a silencer attached it reduces the noise by trapping the hot gasses in the silencer's expansion chamber and internal baffles instead of the hot gasses dissipating in the atmosphere as they would with an unsilenced firearm.  Therefore any blood drawn back into the silencer from SC's neck shots, referred to as 'draw-back', is extremely unlikely to have produced the results the prosecution claim as any blood in the silencer would have fried!

Other developments in science since 85/86 include neuro-science where if a baby/small child fails to form satisfactory bonds with primary caregivers this is likely to give rise to an attachment disorder with a propensity towards violence, aggression and suicide.

The case as it stands, incl all books to date, are rooted in the dark ages and imo up-to-date science and technology could throw new light on the  case.




Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #214 on: July 28, 2015, 04:22:58 PM »
She sets out the entire plot describing in detail what she thinks went on so she must believe he is guilty.

www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6488.msg258476#msg258476

The MoS's two week serialisation bears no resemblance whatsoever to the contents of the book taken as a whole.  Much of the article above is based on appendix 1 which is the prosecution's case against JB.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #215 on: July 28, 2015, 06:16:31 PM »
I have just ordered CAL's book on my Kindle. It is not released until the 30th apparently.
It would have been nice to have and keep the book, but I can't hold a book or turn the pages, unfortunately.
I cant wait to read it! And then I will give you my honest opinion.

I was very eager to get my copy  8(*( and purchased over the counter in Waterstones as this was the fastest route. Otherwise I would have gone the e-book route.  Hard copies are just clutter and extra items to dust as far as I'm concerned. I know many appreciate hard copies though.  I'm sure you will not be disappointed with your purchase Anna and very much look forward to your views  8((()*/
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 06:26:10 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Anna

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #216 on: July 28, 2015, 06:53:57 PM »
I was very eager to get my copy  8(*( and purchased over the counter in Waterstones as this was the fastest route. Otherwise I would have gone the e-book route.  Hard copies are just clutter and extra items to dust as far as I'm concerned. I know many appreciate hard copies though.  I'm sure you will not be disappointed with your purchase Anna and very much look forward to your views  8((()*/

I am rather eager to read this book as well, Holly. At the moment I am reading the court rulings for the second time, due to the fact that it is rather unclear to me, just what evidence was responsible for sending him down.
 
No doubt the book will help guide me through it. I will tell you what I think of the book, when I have read it. I know only very basic details of the case, which seems rather complicated, so I am hoping the book will help........ 
And then I can come back here and check out the many details posted and get on everybody's nerves asking questions.  @)(++(*
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Myster

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #217 on: July 28, 2015, 07:12:31 PM »
It's simpler than you think Anna... especially when you read all the 'No comments' and obfuscation in Jeremy Bamber's police interviews.

Holly's the one who makes it complicated!  8((()*/   
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #218 on: July 28, 2015, 07:18:38 PM »
It's simpler than you think Anna... especially when you read all the 'No comments' and obfuscation in Jeremy Bamber's police interviews.

Holly's the one who makes it complicated!  8((()*/

So would most if they knew they were being lied to and deceived  8((()*/
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #219 on: July 29, 2015, 03:01:20 PM »
It is difficult to see how CAL's book could be improved on other than an author/publisher/other backers involved in such a project investing considerable resource, both in terms of finance and manpower, to make direct challenges to the prosecutions case.  Eg all existing books discuss the fact that only two fingerprints were found on the rifle: one from JB and one from SC.  It now appears that fingerprints are notoriously difficult to lift from firearms due to such factors as the texture of the firearm and gun oil.  Much has been made about this aspect of the case incl DI Cook (a fingerprint expert with 19 years experience circa 1985) saying had SC handled the gun extensively he would have expected to find more of her prints when only one was in fact found. 

As DNA testing was not around in 1985/86 the blood 'found' in the silencer was analysed based on serology: blood grouping A,B,O and proteins and enzymes.  The outcome of serological analysis is dependent upon the quality of blood and any exposure to heat, even prolonged ambient temperature, is likely to render any sample useless.  The prosecution claim the murders were carried out in quick succession and with the silencer fitted throughout.  When a firearm is fired with a silencer attached it reduces the noise by trapping the hot gasses in the silencer's expansion chamber and internal baffles instead of the hot gasses dissipating in the atmosphere as they would with an unsilenced firearm.  Therefore any blood drawn back into the silencer from SC's neck shots, referred to as 'draw-back', is extremely unlikely to have produced the results the prosecution claim as any blood in the silencer would have fried!

Other developments in science since 85/86 include neuro-science where if a baby/small child fails to form satisfactory bonds with primary caregivers this is likely to give rise to an attachment disorder with a propensity towards violence, aggression and suicide.

The case as it stands, incl all books to date, are rooted in the dark ages and imo up-to-date science and technology could throw new light on the  case.

Who wrote this babble?  Blood in the moderator would have fried so no conclusions could be drawn?

As for her book being so great I see nothing at all to be impressed with it adds nothing at all except some erroneous conclusions to the discourse so far as I can tell.

This seems to be quoting some of her claims:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3166636/Bamber-slaughtered-family-25-bullets-told-girlfriend-s-going-years-investigation-leading-author-tell-exactly-happened-night-White-House-Farm-massacre.html

Aside from making a lot of assumptions simply, she gets the order of the shots completely wrong.  Instead of being logical she asserts Jeremy left the room with Nevill not mortally wounded and allowed him to escape to the downstairs so he could go shoot the boys 1 time each.  This makes no sense but even worse would not be possible since at least 6 of June's 7 wounds were fired at her in a row along with the 4 fired into Nevill so that doesn't leave any left to attack the boys with.  She resolves this problem by making the ABSURD suggestion that
June was shot 3 times when Jeremy returned upstairs from the kitchen:

"June started towards her son, who fired three more shots into her neck, head, and finally between the eyes. Jeremy then forced Sheila down beside the bed and shot her once in the throat."

The shots to June's neck and head were delivered while she was in bed not after she got up.  Her head was against the pillow transferring blood to it when she was hot in the head and the bullet to her neck exited into her pillow.

Not only did she do poor research if she didn't understand such a basic issue because there is a great deal of material discussing that these shots were delivered while she was in bed, she should have been able to figure it out herself by looking at the evidence on her own.

If she can't even get something so basic right and thus screwed up the order of shots so bad- all 8 shots into the boys were fired the same time not in separate events- what else did she screw up?

The only way this book would have added anything of value would have been if she obtained more testimony that could be publicly released and other official reports etc to quote from to expand the public release.  Giving her erroneous ideas of what happened doesn't anything to our knowledge about the case.

 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Anna

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #220 on: July 29, 2015, 03:33:38 PM »
It's simpler than you think Anna... especially when you read all the 'No comments' and obfuscation in Jeremy Bamber's police interviews.

Holly's the one who makes it complicated!  8((()*/

Hopefully it will give me an idea of what went on Myster, then I can pick it up on here. I believe this was a complicated case to start with and many suspects use the "No comment" reply.
I sure hope that the case is simple to follow, but a few things that I have read cause me doubt, as to his guilt.

Anyway I should have the book tomorrow, so I will let you know what I think when I have read it......Such a sad case  8(8-))
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #221 on: July 29, 2015, 03:42:34 PM »
Hopefully it will give me an idea of what went on Myster, then I can pick it up on here. I believe this was a complicated case to start with and many suspects use the "No comment" reply.
I sure hope that the case is simple to follow, but a few things that I have read cause me doubt, as to his guilt.

Anyway I should have the book tomorrow, so I will let you know what I think when I have read it......Such a sad case  8(8-))

Beware because some of the claims the press asserts she made are factually wrong.  Others are assertions that may or may not be what happened there are multiple possibilities and only the killer knows which of the options he selected.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Anna

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #222 on: July 29, 2015, 03:49:41 PM »
Beware because some of the claims the press asserts she made are factually wrong.  Others are assertions that may or may not be what happened there are multiple possibilities and only the killer knows which of the options he selected.

Oh dear, So it is not factual after all. I will have to list these faults in her book and eliminate/correct them. Thanks for the warning, Scipio.  *&(+(+
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #223 on: July 29, 2015, 04:34:42 PM »
Oh dear, So it is not factual after all. I will have to list these faults in her book and eliminate/correct them. Thanks for the warning, Scipio.  *&(+(+

Anna you may wish to read my post as follows:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6488.msg259043#msg259043

Unlike yourself where you have stated you are going to purchase the book, read it and then join in debate I'm afraid we have a number of posters who wish to debate the contents of the book without even bothering to read it!  This tends to be a male trait I am afraid! 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #224 on: July 29, 2015, 04:42:04 PM »
Who wrote this babble?  Blood in the moderator would have fried so no conclusions could be drawn?

As for her book being so great I see nothing at all to be impressed with it adds nothing at all except some erroneous conclusions to the discourse so far as I can tell.

This seems to be quoting some of her claims:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3166636/Bamber-slaughtered-family-25-bullets-told-girlfriend-s-going-years-investigation-leading-author-tell-exactly-happened-night-White-House-Farm-massacre.html

Aside from making a lot of assumptions simply, she gets the order of the shots completely wrong.  Instead of being logical she asserts Jeremy left the room with Nevill not mortally wounded and allowed him to escape to the downstairs so he could go shoot the boys 1 time each.  This makes no sense but even worse would not be possible since at least 6 of June's 7 wounds were fired at her in a row along with the 4 fired into Nevill so that doesn't leave any left to attack the boys with.  She resolves this problem by making the ABSURD suggestion that
June was shot 3 times when Jeremy returned upstairs from the kitchen:

"June started towards her son, who fired three more shots into her neck, head, and finally between the eyes. Jeremy then forced Sheila down beside the bed and shot her once in the throat."

The shots to June's neck and head were delivered while she was in bed not after she got up.  Her head was against the pillow transferring blood to it when she was hot in the head and the bullet to her neck exited into her pillow.

Not only did she do poor research if she didn't understand such a basic issue because there is a great deal of material discussing that these shots were delivered while she was in bed, she should have been able to figure it out herself by looking at the evidence on her own.

If she can't even get something so basic right and thus screwed up the order of shots so bad- all 8 shots into the boys were fired the same time not in separate events- what else did she screw up?

The only way this book would have added anything of value would have been if she obtained more testimony that could be publicly released and other official reports etc to quote from to expand the public release.  Giving her erroneous ideas of what happened doesn't anything to our knowledge about the case.

May I suggest you read the book Scipio before you attempt a critique!

As I explained to Angelo yesterday the above is contained in an appendix (1).  It is a "possible scenario" put together by those who worked on the original investigation including Dr Vanezis and Malcolm Fletcher; not all those consulted agreed on every point!  What does this tell you  8(0(*

The book contains nothing original from the author.  She has simply brought existing info together from various sources including interviews. 

CAN I ASK PLEASE THAT IF POSTERS WISH TO COMMENT ON CAROL ANN LEE'S BOOK THEY READ IT BEFOREHAND - THANK YOU
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?