You can discuss Julie Mugford's diaries here

[John]

The words Society > believe murder was ultimate sin but it wasn't so.  which Julie wrote in her diary are indeed puzzling.  Could it be that she was trying to make excuses for what she thought Sheila had done?  Is she in fact saying that Sheila could not be blamed for killing everyone?

[Admin]

The words Society > believe murder was ultimate sin but it wasn't so.  which Julie wrote in her diary are indeed puzzling.  Could it be that she was trying to make excuses for what she thought Sheila had done?  Is she in fact saying that Sheila could not be blamed for killing everyone?

We thought the reference was to Jeremy but you might be right.  It all depends on when it was written and only Julie knows that John.  By the way, have you had a response from Mrs Smerchanski yet?

[Angelo222]

The diary entry for Tuesday 6 August is intriguing.  Julie is more or less saying that if it is tonight or never then basically if Jeremy can get over tonight then that will be an end of it.  Did she really believe he was just kidding I find myself asking?  Was she such a bad judge of character?

The other thing which is concerning is how she was able to make the entry at the top listing what she believed to be the number of times each of the victims had been shot when this information wasn't available at the time.

Did Jeremy fill her in on these details?   8-)(--)

It is strange that those details were filled in at the top of the page.  Had they been at the bottom it could have been explained away unless she wrote the entry the following day which I suppose is quite reasonable given the circumstances.  I am beginning to sound like Tesko now??   

[Myster]

John, I think the explanation is much simpler.

Apparently, Colin Caffell asked to see Julie Mugford after he learned the truth. Together with Liz Rimmington she went to talk to him in October,'85,  and it was Liz who told him, amongst other damning things that...,

"Jeremy never believed murder was a crime".  (In Search of the Rainbow's End, p.103)

In the diary entry, "Society > believe murder was ultimate sin but it wasn't so".., I think that Julie was just reiterating what Jeremy Bamber or Liz Rimmington had said to her.

[John]

John, I think the explanation is much simpler.

Apparently, Colin Caffell asked to see Julie Mugford after he learned the truth. Together with Liz Rimmington she went to talk to him in October,'85,  and it was Liz who told him, amongst other damning things that...,

"Jeremy never believed murder was a crime".  (In Search of the Rainbow's End, p.103)

In the diary entry, "Society > believe murder was ultimate sin but it wasn't so".., I think that Julie was just reiterating what Jeremy Bamber or Liz Rimmington had said to her.

Excellent Myster.  That most certainly explains it.  I bet that meeting between Julie and Colin was a difficult one.  If that meeting took place after Jeremy was arrested and after Julie gave the comprehensive 32 page statement to DS Jones then she would have been in a position to spill the beans on Jeremy at that stage to Colin.  I wonder did Julie also have a meeting with Robert, Ann or David after Jeremy was arrested or was she too ashamed to face them?

I must add that question to my e-mail to her.

[abs]

The diary entry for Tuesday 6 August is intriguing.  Julie is more or less saying that if it is tonight or never then basically if Jeremy can get over tonight then that will be an end of it.  Did she really believe he was just kidding I find myself asking?  Was she such a bad judge of character?

The other thing which is concerning is how she was able to make the entry at the top listing what she believed to be the number of times each of the victims had been shot when this information wasn't available at the time.

Did Jeremy fill her in on these details?   8-)(--)

It is strange that those details were filled in at the top of the page.  Had they been at the bottom it could have been explained away unless she wrote the entry the following day which I suppose is quite reasonable given the circumstances.  I am beginning to sound like Tesko now??   

In my view that is very significant. It looks like a slip and makes me believe the diaries might be fake.
No one starts writing far down on a page, then, another day, writes above it. Makes no sense.
And why would she write in such formal manner:
"Night/morning of 5 murders at Tolleshunt D'Arcy.
- White House Farm

1) Mr Nevill Bamber    8 x 's
2) Mrs June Bamber   5 x 's
3) Mrs Sheila Caffell   All shot twice (suicide?)
4) Nicholas Caffell       3 x 's
5) Daniel Caffell          3 x 's"

It sounds like something a police officer would write, "Mrs Sheila Caffell", "Daniel Caffell".... Julie knew them, she would have written "Sheila" and "Daniel" etc.
Did she write the diaries at all - this is too weird? Not quite buying this.

[Admin]

The diary entry for Tuesday 6 August is intriguing.  Julie is more or less saying that if it is tonight or never then basically if Jeremy can get over tonight then that will be an end of it.  Did she really believe he was just kidding I find myself asking?  Was she such a bad judge of character?

The other thing which is concerning is how she was able to make the entry at the top listing what she believed to be the number of times each of the victims had been shot when this information wasn't available at the time.

Did Jeremy fill her in on these details?   8-)(--)

It is strange that those details were filled in at the top of the page.  Had they been at the bottom it could have been explained away unless she wrote the entry the following day which I suppose is quite reasonable given the circumstances.  I am beginning to sound like Tesko now??   

In my view that is very significant. It looks like a slip and makes me believe the diaries might be fake.
No one starts writing far down on a page, then, another day, writes above it. Makes no sense.
And why would she write in such formal manner:
"Night/morning of 5 murders at Tolleshunt D'Arcy.
- White House Farm

1) Mr Nevill Bamber    8 x 's
2) Mrs June Bamber   5 x 's
3) Mrs Sheila Caffell   All shot twice (suicide?)
4) Nicholas Caffell       3 x 's
5) Daniel Caffell          3 x 's"

It sounds like something a police officer would write, "Mrs Sheila Caffell", "Daniel Caffell".... Julie knew them, she would have written "Sheila" and "Daniel" etc.
Did she write the diaries at all - this is too weird? Not quite buying this.

We take on board what you say abs.  The suggestion that a police officer wrote the diaries and then passed them off as Julie's is a bit far fetched don't you think?  Why would any officer put his career in jeopardy for those muppets?

Come on abs, lets think logically and put the tesko nonsense to bed.

[abs]

But why would Sheila write this, and write it in such a formal manner? It rings false to me. I don´t know who wrote it, I am just saying that it sounds like something from a police report, not a young girl´s diary.

And another thing:

Went to Colchester shopping.  Lizzie + I   Brett + Jeremy.

Bought suit £ value not legible   tie £30  offered to buy me a new designer dress - said NO!

Went to Miss Selfridge's then to Sloppy Joe's then home.

Meal - ask Lizzie where?

Discussion white face black eye make up.

Jeremy and Liz sat up talking after Brett and I went to bed - suicidal - had to tell someone but who?

They came up after approx 1 hr.  Was he convincing someone else.  Was I mad?

What it really says is: "Offered to buy new designer dress - No"
A little different.


P.S. I do think I am being logical.

[Admin]

But why would Sheila write this, and write it in such a formal manner? It rings false to me. I don´t know who wrote it, I am just saying that it sounds like something from a police report, not a young girl´s diary.

And another thing:

Went to Colchester shopping.  Lizzie + I   Brett + Jeremy.

Bought suit £ value not legible   tie £30  offered to buy me a new designer dress - said NO!

Went to Miss Selfridge's then to Sloppy Joe's then home.

Meal - ask Lizzie where?

Discussion white face black eye make up.

Jeremy and Liz sat up talking after Brett and I went to bed - suicidal - had to tell someone but who?

They came up after approx 1 hr.  Was he convincing someone else.  Was I mad?

What it really says is: "Offered to buy new designer dress - No"
A little different.


P.S. I do think I am being logical.

How is it different abs, it means the same thing.  Jeremy was purchasing some new clothes and offered to buy Julie a new designer dress obviously to keep her sweet.  She said NO?   Are we missing something here?

We do accept and point out that we have deciphered some of the diary entries while other are written verbatim.  This is because some of the posts are from the old forum.  Please always check with the actual diary entry which is posted beneath.

[abs]

"Offered to buy new designer dress - No"

This (what is actually written) could also be interpreted as someone did not offer to buy a new designer dress. Either way it could be interpreted, also that she said no, true, but also my suggestion.

You are beginning to sound peed off at me - I am just writing what I see, just my opinions.

[Admin]

"Offered to buy new designer dress - No"

This (what is actually written) could also be interpreted as someone did not offer to buy a new designer dress. Either way it could be interpreted, also that she said no, true, but also my suggestion.

You are beginning to sound peed off at me - I am just writing what I see, just my opinions.

No...not at all.  Just thought we had made a mistake.  You are probably right in what you say, a females intuition??

Julie would have written "didn't offer to buy me a new designer dress" if that had been the case.  What do you think?  It's just that having read all her notes this is the way she normally writes....she wore her heart on her sleeve.

[kevin]

Now that you are on admin, can we have some more of Julie's diaries please?

[Admin]

Now that you are on admin, can we have some more of Julie's diaries please?

On it at the moment, a couple of other statements to post up first.

[Weety]

It's been a while since I read her diaries and I haven't re-read them yet, but don't think they were 'kept' in the way that some think. I think after the murders she was trying to remember everything that had happened and been said, and she used the diary to write it all down. The formality of the names and numbers of bullets section was probably written down as someone (perhaps a policeman) explained it to her, and it was probably one of the first things she wrote in the diary. After that she went back and wrote in the details as best she could remember them.

[Weety]

But why would Sheila write this, and write it in such a formal manner? It rings false to me. I don´t know who wrote it, I am just saying that it sounds like something from a police report, not a young girl´s diary.

And another thing:

Went to Colchester shopping.  Lizzie + I   Brett + Jeremy.

Bought suit £ value not legible   tie £30  offered to buy me a new designer dress - said NO!

Went to Miss Selfridge's then to Sloppy Joe's then home.

Meal - ask Lizzie where?

Discussion white face black eye make up.

Jeremy and Liz sat up talking after Brett and I went to bed - suicidal - had to tell someone but who?

They came up after approx 1 hr.  Was he convincing someone else.  Was I mad?

What it really says is: "Offered to buy new designer dress - No"
A little different.


P.S. I do think I am being logical.

I think it says "Offered to buy me designer dress - No"
The 'm' is just misformed.