Author Topic: Brexit has well and truly begun!  (Read 284780 times)

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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1095 on: February 14, 2019, 05:47:49 PM »
From a post on Facebook.  Any pro-Brexit rebuttals welcome
LONG INFURIATED POST ALERT:

Right, let's tackle this WTO thing, because it's pissing me off.

1/ If we end up solely on WTO rules, then we need a hard border in Ireland. That risks peace, stability, and the Union. Plus we don't have any time to build the infrastructure required. Like, nowhere NEAR enough time. And there aren't any "alternative arrangements", I promise. They don't exist. There isn't a single border in the world that has any. And that means a hard border.

2/ If we rely on WTO rules for trade, then we need to apply tariffs to imports. And expect that other countries will apply tariffs to our exports. That makes things more expensive for us to buy, and makes our businesses less able to compete. Not really sure how this is a win.

3/ If we decide we're not going to apply tariffs to imports at all, then we lose all leverage for negotiating future trade deals. What on earth would we offer them?? We've already given them free access to our market.

4/ If we decide we're not going to apply tariffs to imports at all, then we destroy our own producers - why would you carry on trying to run a farm produce business when the market is flooded with much cheaper products from abroad?

5/ If we decide to only reduce tariffs on products from the EU, then the Most Favoured Nation clause (WTO rules) kicks in - this says that you can't offer more favourable terms to one bloc, and not everyone else. So - no tariffs from the EU, means no tariffs from anyone. See points 3 and 4.

6/ If you were looking forward to getting your bendy bananas back, then tough shit; this rule didn't come from the EU (no matter what Boris told you), it came from the WTO - specifically, the Codex Alimentarius. So, no change there. Except now bananas are extortionately expensive, because, well, tariffs.

7/ If you're relying on the idea that there's an obscure WTO rule that says we can just carry on trading with the EU on the same terms we have now for 10 years, then tough shit again - this isn't correct. The "rule" is Article XXIV of the GATT, and is specifically an allowance for deviating from the MFN (see 5) because you and another bloc are working towards implementing your bilateral trade deal. It requires an end point - a fully thrashed out trade agreement. It is specifically NOT a clause that comes into play when you decide to drop out of a trading arrangement.

8/ If one of the benefits of "going WTO" is that we can make our own rules, then I can understand that. We could decide, unilaterally, that it's too expensive for us to produce electronics with an earthing wire, so we're not going to insist on that anymore. Cool. But then we can't sell our products to our closest trading neighbours. We want to sell stuff to the EU, we need to follow their rules. Except now we don't get a say in what they are.

9/ Having a "world trade deal" sounds quite attractive - quite romantic. The idea of Britain going out on her own, bravely forging links with faraway lands - it's quite appealing. Except trade doesn't work like that. There's a gravity towards your closest neighbours - proximity is important. I'm more likely to sell something to France than I am to Australia - I can get it there quicker, for example, and for a much lower cost. There is no nation on earth - none - that have prioritised trading with distant countries instead of those geographically closest. We're about to be the first - which will involve a pretty brutal lesson in the realities of logistics.

10/ If we go WTO, then we need to check goods coming into our internal market - including those from the EU. We don't have the infrastructure to do this. Nor do we have the staff. Nor the time. Plus - and this is deeply ironic - once we leave the EU, the pool of people from which we can recruit to do this essential work becomes much, much smaller. Do we have enough vets to perform the necessary checks on livestock coming into the country, for example? No. Where do we normally recruit them from? The EU. Ah, shit.

11/ A No Deal exit was never on the cards during the campaign. It is simply all that is left, once logic and reality strip away all the lies that we were told about Brexit. No, German car manufacturers haven't been knocking on Merkel's  door demanding a trade deal with the UK. No, the EU doesn't need us more than we need them. No, we don't hold all the cards. None of that was true. It was never going to be true. But rather than facing up to reality, the rhetoric has just become more and more extreme. If you're dealt a bad hand in a game of poker - if the river turns against you - you don't HAVE to go all in. There are other options. You don't need to claim that was what you intended to do all along.

All of this - all of the above. That's what Donald Tusk was talking about. People who either ignored the above, or didn't even bother to find out about it - but sold us Brexit anyway. The people who - even now - print banners that say "LET'S GO WTO!" as if it's the easiest thing in the world, and without consequence.

Forty-nine days to go.

Just forty-nine.

Sigh.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1096 on: February 14, 2019, 06:45:39 PM »
Seems correct, AFAIK. Except that the UK is now down to less than 49 days.

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1097 on: February 14, 2019, 06:53:35 PM »
There's a rather large accompanying document to the WA. No idea where that's at.

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1098 on: February 14, 2019, 07:09:08 PM »
Seems correct, AFAIK. Except that the UK is now down to less than 49 days.
As bananas aren’t imported from the EU I think he’s wrong about them being vastly more expensive, apart from that....
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1099 on: February 14, 2019, 07:11:58 PM »
Oh wait...

“Since 1st January, 2008, the African, Caribbean and Pacific (ACP) banana suppliers who have signed an EPA (Economic Partnership Agreement) have benefited from duty and quotafree access to the European Union market”.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1100 on: February 14, 2019, 07:32:39 PM »
Oh wait...

“Since 1st January, 2008, the African, Caribbean and Pacific (ACP) banana suppliers who have signed an EPA (Economic Partnership Agreement) have benefited from duty and quotafree access to the European Union market”.

Not an expert in bananas, I'm afraid.

There's this whole bit:

    Free trade agreements including a stabilisation mechanism

    Since 2009, most of the major banana producers in Latin American have also signed free trade agreements with the EU:  Costa Rica, El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua and Panama, Peru, Colombia and Ecuador. These agreements provide for a gradual reduction of the import duty for bananas from these countries down to € 75/t as of 1 January 2020. They also include a so-called ‘stabilisation mechanism’ that allows the EU, if it chooses to do so, to temporarily suspend the preferential tariffs when imports exceed pre-defined trigger levels and cause a serious disturbance on the EU banana market. These stabilisation mechanisms apply until the end of 2019, when the import duty will be set permanently at €75/t.

    More: Banana import monitoring report

    Economic partnership agreements with ACP countries

    A range of economic partnership agreements grant African, Caribbean and Pacific banana suppliers duty- and quota-free access to the European Union market.


    More: EU trade policy and ACP countries and EPAs in a nutshell.

https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/bananas_en

Offline John

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1101 on: February 14, 2019, 07:52:05 PM »
As bananas aren’t imported from the EU I think he’s wrong about them being vastly more expensive, apart from that....

Actually that isn't strictly correct as bananas are imported from the Canary Islands, the Azores and several French Caribbean regions which also come under the EU auspices..
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1102 on: February 14, 2019, 08:06:31 PM »
Actually that isn't strictly correct as bananas are imported from the Canary Islands, the Azores and several French Caribbean regions which also come under the EU auspices..

John, you're not supposed to agree.  @)(++(*

How are you doing?

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1103 on: February 14, 2019, 09:05:58 PM »
Bit of a shame that the UK only has a few weeks to benefit from the Japan deal, and the Singapore one, if it's also got legs.

Not surprised Dyson moved to Singapore as he'll have access to the EU market as well.

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1104 on: February 14, 2019, 10:15:02 PM »
Beyond the trade issues, I really don't get why May's so stuck on ending freedom of movement. I really don't  get it. I know that there was an issue about "detached" workers (basicallly dumping human labour from poorer countries), which undercut local labour, but a law was passed to end / restrict that in 2016.

What's so wrong about having the opportunity to study, work, live and love in another country if you're not a burden on the state?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1105 on: February 15, 2019, 08:28:46 AM »
Beyond the trade issues, I really don't get why May's so stuck on ending freedom of movement. I really don't  get it. I know that there was an issue about "detached" workers (basicallly dumping human labour from poorer countries), which undercut local labour, but a law was passed to end / restrict that in 2016.

What's so wrong about having the opportunity to study, work, live and love in another country if you're not a burden on the state?

Are you of the opinion that a family aren't a burden on the state if they work? Thet would depend on whether their tax and NI contributions cover the costs of child tax credit, child benefit and education. Then there's healthcare for all the family too.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1106 on: February 15, 2019, 09:44:42 AM »
Are you of the opinion that a family aren't a burden on the state if they work? Thet would depend on whether their tax and NI contributions cover the costs of child tax credit, child benefit and education. Then there's healthcare for all the family too.
Are the things you mention a burden on the state or an investment in the future? 
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1107 on: February 15, 2019, 10:39:00 AM »
No country wants scroungers, they have enough to deal with with home-grown ones. Perhaps we could agree on at least that.

What happens to EU* partners of UK armed forces' personnel who have had to move around and now can't fulfill the permanent residency requirements?

*EU or non-EU, same principle.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 11:17:22 AM by Carana »

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1108 on: February 15, 2019, 12:10:32 PM »
Are the things you mention a burden on the state or an investment in the future?

There isn't a simple either/or answer. 
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1109 on: February 15, 2019, 12:26:56 PM »
No country wants scroungers, they have enough to deal with with home-grown ones. Perhaps we could agree on at least that.

What happens to EU* partners of UK armed forces' personnel who have had to move around and now can't fulfill the permanent residency requirements?

*EU or non-EU, same principle.

It depends how you define 'scrounging'.

What specific problems do EU partners of UK armed forces personnel face?
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