UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on September 13, 2018, 12:46:41 AM
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The Ocean Club organised missing child procedures:
1. Who was in charge?
2. Where was the assembly point?
3. When did they commence?
4. What were the procedures?
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The Ocean Club organised missing child procedures:
1. Who was in charge?
2. Where was the assembly point?
3. When did they commence?
4. What were the procedures?
That's a little difficult to answer as the Mark Warner nannies were the first responders, followed by John Hill of OC. Madeleine was not in the care of MW staff at the time of her disappearance & it was the parents who reported the disappearance, not vice versa, so much of the MW preliminary procedure would not have applied imo. Should the nannies have called the GNR immediately? - possibly, unless Reception had told them police had already been called.
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That's a little difficult to answer as the Mark Warner nannies were the first responders, followed by John Hill of OC. Madeleine was not in the care of MW staff at the time of her disappearance & it was the parents who reported the disappearance, not vice versa, so much of the MW preliminary procedure would not have applied imo. Should the nannies have called the GNR immediately? - possibly, unless Reception had told them police had already been called.
I was looking back through the forum and one comment said they "instigated their missing child procedure and probably didn't want police involvement initially".
I can appreciate that as you never know the businesses may have to pay a fee for using the GNR etc. I know in NZ users have to pay for fire service call outs and even ambulance travel.
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I was looking back through the forum and one comment said they "instigated their missing child procedure and probably didn't want police involvement initially".
I can appreciate that as you never know the businesses may have to pay a fee for using the GNR etc. I know in NZ users have to pay for fire service call outs and even ambulance travel.
Here is an example of UK procedure when a child goes missing in a situation away from home. Certain elements would not have applied in Madeleine's case.
https://thecpsu.org.uk/resource-library/2013/missing-children-and-young-people-at-sports-events-procedure-and-flow-chart/
I don't think that OC or the McCanns would have had to pay for the use of the GNR but perhaps SIL could clarify if the Emergency Services do have a tariff of charges.
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I was looking back through the forum and one comment said they "instigated their missing child procedure and probably didn't want police involvement initially".
I can appreciate that as you never know the businesses may have to pay a fee for using the GNR etc. I know in NZ users have to pay for fire service call outs and even ambulance travel.
I doubt it was the fee, Rob. More likely to be the bad publicity of a child going missing from their Holiday premises and the potential loss of income. That is, of course, if the original poster was correct in his/her assumption.
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Here's how Pegasus saw the situation http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6160.msg238874#msg238874
"Only 20 minutes into the missing child procedure, a manager ordered police to be called in.
Police arrived fast, they were on the outskirts of PDL within about 11 minutes of being phoned.
The first GNR team was two officers, they searched briefly the apartment and immediate area, and called in help.
Next GNR officer to arrive was the Lagos commander, he did not search the apartment, instead he and one of the first two officers immediately did further searches of the area, by foot and car. And as more GNR arrived, they did more searches."
Well that could go to explain what Amy Tierney says "The witness confirms that the girl's father went to the reception to call the police as soon as her disappearance was noticed and that twenty minutes had passed. The GNR took 30 to 35 minutes to arrive."
Was it a policy to call the GNR 20 minutes into a fruitless missing child search?
We know the was calls at 10:41 and 10:52 20 minutes back from those times are 10:21 and 10:32.
Lyndsay was not so certain: "Later, not knowing precisely what time, the local police came to the company and, taking into account the procedure which we had set in place, they proceeded with the appropriate actions for this type of situation."
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Here's how Pegasus saw the situation http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6160.msg238874#msg238874
"Only 20 minutes into the missing child procedure, a manager ordered police to be called in.
Police arrived fast, they were on the outskirts of PDL within about 11 minutes of being phoned.
The first GNR team was two officers, they searched briefly the apartment and immediate area, and called in help.
Next GNR officer to arrive was the Lagos commander, he did not search the apartment, instead he and one of the first two officers immediately did further searches of the area, by foot and car. And as more GNR arrived, they did more searches."
Well that could go to explain what Amy Tierney says "The witness confirms that the girl's father went to the reception to call the police as soon as her disappearance was noticed and that twenty minutes had passed. The GNR took 30 to 35 minutes to arrive."
... snip ...
I'm just realising how interesting that is. I suppose we are entitled to add the 20 to the (30 to 35) and get 50 to 55 minutes before the GNR arrived and it is generally accepted they arrived at 10:55 PM so that means Amy was there and aware that Gerry must have left to call the police at roughly 10:20 PM roughly 20 minutes after she had arrived.
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6981.msg309316#msg309316 was a thread about Richard D Hall's videos.
Benice had this to say (in part): "Basically, [to Richard D Hall] Amy Tierney is a deceitful liar according to Hall, although he doesn't seem to have been able to come up with a reason why this lady would lie through her teeth - so extensively - for a couple she didn't know. Surely discovering the reason for such duplicitous behaviour by Amy Tierney would be a priority - as without a reason for it - it makes no sense.
He also can't understand why as a mere nanny she was at Reception on 3rd May. She was in fact Head of the Baby Club and Mini Club and was on duty. She was also involved in the Missing Child procedure AFAIK."
Was she Head of the Baby Club and Mini Club?
She was on duty.
She was involved in the Missing Child procedure [Amy confirmed the child was missing].
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Benice makes a further comment on a thread about a article in the Sun. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7173.msg326627#msg326627
Benice states in part: "The very fact that there is a Missing Child Procedure in existence in the first place at the OG - is because parents are not perfect people and children do go missing on holiday."
I suppose that is very correct, they have that procedure for from time to time they need to use it.
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The next entry from the search results is a post by John.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1101.msg46181#msg46181
"The hotel manager Emma Knight was quite specific about times and said she was telephoned at 10.17pm by Lyndsay and immediately initiated the missing child procedure."
From what I understand is that Emma might have approved the activation of the Missing Child Procedure, but she says she was off site at the time.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
"On the night of 3rd May, after having finished work, I planned to meet a group of colleagues at 22.30 to go out. At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'."
So Emma calls Amy Tierney the "Service Manager"
Emma's position at the time was "Client Support Manager".
Lyndsey has been called "manager of the KIDS CLUB"
Going out at 22.30 seems rather late.
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Next is an interesting sounding thread title "The childcare arrangements or lack of them reviewed."
In answer to a post by G-unit http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6811.msg289702#msg289702
Benice in part states: "The fact that there was a Missing Child Procedure in place at the OC would confirm that other people's children also went missing from time to time. The only difference being - those other missing children were found."
I have found it hard to pin point how frequently it was used.
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Next - dear to my heart "Why was Tannerman going the wrong way?"
G-unit had this to say: "The last child was collected from the creche later than that. There were still children there when the missing child procedure was begun at 10.20pm.
After this, the "missing child procedure" was initiated, which consists of an organised search, spread over different areas of the complex. The witness immediately helped in the searches, whilst her colleague Charlotte remained at the cręche, looking after the other children that were there and waiting for the arrival of the last parents, after which she also began searching.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared. At that, she immediately launched the "missing child" procedure.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm"
That's all been discussed in the last day or so.
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I'm just realising how interesting that is. I suppose we are entitled to add the 20 to the (30 to 35) and get 50 to 55 minutes before the GNR arrived and it is generally accepted they arrived at 10:55 PM so that means Amy was there and aware that Gerry must have left to call the police at roughly 10:20 PM roughly 20 minutes after she had arrived.
The PJ documents state that they were called at 10.40 pm Rob
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_02.jpg
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Here is an example of UK procedure when a child goes missing in a situation away from home. Certain elements would not have applied in Madeleine's case.
https://thecpsu.org.uk/resource-library/2013/missing-children-and-young-people-at-sports-events-procedure-and-flow-chart/
I don't think that OC or the McCanns would have had to pay for the use of the GNR but perhaps SIL could clarify if the Emergency Services do have a tariff of charges.
I have no reason to believe the GNR or PJ would charge for emergencies, but we haven't had to use either.
We have used the bombeiros at least 3 times re emergencies and there was no charge.
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The PJ documents state that they were called at 10.40 pm Rob
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_02.jpg
That might be so but we are looking at this from Amy's perspective.
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I think it would have taken Amy ten minutes to get to 5A, search it, and alert Lindsay. It took Lindsay five minutes to get to the Tapas. We then have to allow five minutes for Emma to go and get the description of Madeleine clothing. That means it took twenty minutes to be at a point to begin searches. Assuming that the five 'team leaders' for each search zone had arrived, gathered their teams, and were poised to begin, we can allow another five minutes for them all to move off to their designated zones.
John Hill says he was phoned by Lindsay at 22.28. He arrived at 22.35 by which time 100 people were searching and calling the child's name.
That means that Amy must have left the night creche for 5A at 22.10; twenty five minutes before John saw all those people searching.
In my opinion she phoned Lindsay after the woman arrived at 22.05, and Lindsay told her to check it out. No missing child procedure is triggered by a rumour, it had to be confirmed. Amy rang back and confirmed the disappearance following or during her visit to 5A. That was between 22.15 and 22.22 in my opinion. Lindsay then rang Emma.
After searching 5A Amy went to the Tapas complex and probably helped with organising the paperwork for the search teams. At 22.35 John Hill arrived there. I think he and Gerry went to the main reception together to phone the police, although both had mobile phones and the Tapas was nearer. Perhaps it was thought it was more appropriate to use an 'official' phone.
22.41 was the time of the first call to the GNR. From Amy's point of view that was 20 minutes after she officially raised the alarm by notifying Lindsay.
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I think it would have taken Amy ten minutes to get to 5A, search it, and alert Lindsay. It took Lindsay five minutes to get to the Tapas. We then have to allow five minutes for Emma to go and get the description of Madeleine clothing. That means it took twenty minutes to be at a point to begin searches. Assuming that the five 'team leaders' for each search zone had arrived, gathered their teams, and were poised to begin, we can allow another five minutes for them all to move off to their designated zones.
John Hill says he was phoned by Lindsay at 22.28. He arrived at 22.35 by which time 100 people were searching and calling the child's name.
That means that Amy must have left the night creche for 5A at 22.10; twenty five minutes before John saw all those people searching.
In my opinion she phoned Lindsay after the woman arrived at 22.05, and Lindsay told her to check it out. No missing child procedure is triggered by a rumour, it had to be confirmed. Amy rang back and confirmed the disappearance following or during her visit to 5A. That was between 22.15 and 22.22 in my opinion. Lindsay then rang Emma.
After searching 5A Amy went to the Tapas complex and probably helped with organising the paperwork for the search teams. At 22.35 John Hill arrived there. I think he and Gerry went to the main reception together to phone the police, although both had mobile phones and the Tapas was nearer. Perhaps it was thought it was more appropriate to use an 'official' phone.
22.41 was the time of the first call to the GNR. From Amy's point of view that was 20 minutes after she officially raised the alarm by notifying Lindsay.
From memory, as John Hill did not speak Portuguese, he instructed the OC receptionist to phone the GNR.
I don't know John Hill's location at that time.
Based on the subsequent reaction of the GNR, I am inclined to think the 10.41 phone call referred only to a missing child, not to an abducted one.
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From memory, as John Hill did not speak Portuguese, he instructed the OC receptionist to phone the GNR.
I don't know John Hill's location at that time.
Based on the subsequent reaction of the GNR, I am inclined to think the 10.41 phone call referred only to a missing child, not to an abducted one.
That sounds feasible. Perhaps he phoned from the Tapas initially (22.41 call), then went to see the McCanns and went to reception with Gerry (second call).
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That sounds feasible. Perhaps he phoned from the Tapas initially (22.41 call), then went to see the McCanns and went to reception with Gerry (second call).
Receptionist Helder Luis says he made more than one call to the GNR, before phoning his boss, Vitor dos Santos. Dos Santos claims more than one call was made by Helder Luis.
Based on this, I would put John Hill and Gerry at OC reception some time after the second call.
I keep meaning to look up Gerry's phone records to see if they help narrow the timing.
In the mean time, was there still an ongoing search within Luz for Madeleine?
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That sounds feasible. Perhaps he phoned from the Tapas initially (22.41 call), then went to see the McCanns and went to reception with Gerry (second call).
We know it was a call from OC to the GNR at those two times. I would call it "speculation" when guessing what each phone call was about.
I must admit I thought the first phone call was to cancel a GNR call out made earlier and the second call was the actual request for the McCann case. As you can see with speculation you could get many different reasons for the two calls.
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I think it would have taken Amy ten minutes to get to 5A, search it, and alert Lindsay. It took Lindsay five minutes to get to the Tapas. We then have to allow five minutes for Emma to go and get the description of Madeleine clothing. That means it took twenty minutes to be at a point to begin searches. Assuming that the five 'team leaders' for each search zone had arrived, gathered their teams, and were poised to begin, we can allow another five minutes for them all to move off to their designated zones.
John Hill says he was phoned by Lindsay at 22.28. He arrived at 22.35 by which time 100 people were searching and calling the child's name.
That means that Amy must have left the night creche for 5A at 22.10; twenty five minutes before John saw all those people searching.
In my opinion she phoned Lindsay after the woman arrived at 22.05, and Lindsay told her to check it out. No missing child procedure is triggered by a rumour, it had to be confirmed. Amy rang back and confirmed the disappearance following or during her visit to 5A. That was between 22.15 and 22.22 in my opinion. Lindsay then rang Emma.
After searching 5A Amy went to the Tapas complex and probably helped with organising the paperwork for the search teams. At 22.35 John Hill arrived there. I think he and Gerry went to the main reception together to phone the police, although both had mobile phones and the Tapas was nearer. Perhaps it was thought it was more appropriate to use an 'official' phone.
22.41 was the time of the first call to the GNR. From Amy's point of view that was 20 minutes after she officially raised the alarm by notifying Lindsay.
You said "I think it would have taken Amy ten minutes to get to 5A, search it, and alert Lindsay"
I think that is pretty good, and considering the call to Lyndsay would have to precede the call to Emma (10:17)
One could imagine on that basis the call to Lyndsay could have been 10:15 (i.e. 2 minutes before calling Emma).
10:15 minus 10 minutes and you get 10:05 the time the lady mentions the man.
So as long as Amy hurries around to the McCann's apartment and leave the creche immediately it would be possible to present her self at the McCann's apartment around 10:10 and the spend the next 5 minutes checking the apartment and going off to ring Lyndsay by 10:15.
You wrote: "After searching 5A Amy went to the Tapas complex and probably helped with organising the paperwork for the search teams. At 22.35 John Hill arrived there. I think he and Gerry went to the main reception together to phone the police, although both had mobile phones and the Tapas was nearer. Perhaps it was thought it was more appropriate to use an 'official' phone."
Now that is speculative but entirely possible.
"22.41 was the time of the first call to the GNR. From Amy's point of view that was 20 minutes after she officially raised the alarm by notifying Lindsay."
I might have calculated that as 26 minutes rather than 20.
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We know it was a call from OC to the GNR at those two times. I would call it "speculation" when guessing what each phone call was about.
I must admit I thought the first phone call was to cancel a GNR call out made earlier and the second call was the actual request for the McCann case. As you can see with speculation you could get many different reasons for the two calls.
With speculation you can imagine anything but there was no earlier call out from the OC reception and that's a fact.
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Now we have the Manager of the OC putting his spanner in the works;
That at around 22h15 of 03 May 2007, he was alone in his residence, situated in Lagos, and was contacted by John Hill, Mark Warner manager who works in the Ocean Club establishment and who informed him that a child, a minor, of the feminine sex, who was staying with her family in that resort, had disappeared and that he was going to initiate the 'procedure for missing child' (sic);
. The deponent left toward the local where he arrived at 22H25 and there found John Hill and other functionaries, Silvia Batista, Joao Batista, the former who is employee manager and the latter maintenance;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBIN_CROSSLAND-1.htm
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John Hill first found out about the disappearance as follows:
This phone call was made to the deponent's mobile phone at about 22.28 on 03-05-2007. About 5 minutes later the deponent presented himself at the resort.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_HILL.htm
Gerry was talking to Pamela Fenn on his balcony at around 22:30 - that was before he first met with the manager John Hill.
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With speculation you can imagine anything but there was no earlier call out from the OC reception and that's a fact.
I'd say that was an opinion about a fact.
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I'd say that was an opinion about a fact.
Have you evidence of this earlier call?
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John Hill first found out about the disappearance as follows:
This phone call was made to the deponent's mobile phone at about 22.28 on 03-05-2007. About 5 minutes later the deponent presented himself at the resort.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_HILL.htm
Gerry was talking to Pamela Fenn on his balcony at around 22:30 - that was before he first met with the manager John Hill.
At 10.35 the police had still not arrived, so Gerry asked Matt if he would go back down to the twenty-four-hour reception and find out what was happening. John Hill, the Mark Warner resort manager, came up to the veranda behind our apartment. I remember screaming at him to do something. ‘Where are the police?’ I yelled at him.
[madeleine]
Matthew and Fiona make no mention of this second request. I think that's when John Hill sent Emma Knight to 5A after seeing how Kate was reacting. When she arrived only Fiona and Kate were there. A short while later Gerry and Russell came into 5A.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
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Now we have the Manager of the OC putting his spanner in the works;
That at around 22h15 of 03 May 2007, he was alone in his residence, situated in Lagos, and was contacted by John Hill, Mark Warner manager who works in the Ocean Club establishment and who informed him that a child, a minor, of the feminine sex, who was staying with her family in that resort, had disappeared and that he was going to initiate the 'procedure for missing child' (sic);
. The deponent left toward the local where he arrived at 22H25 and there found John Hill and other functionaries, Silvia Batista, Joao Batista, the former who is employee manager and the latter maintenance;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBIN_CROSSLAND-1.htm
G-unit are there any clues in that post from Robin Crossland that proves he was talking about MM?
"1. was contacted by John Hill, Mark Warner manager who works in the Ocean Club establishment How could JH know about Madeleine missing that early as Amy and Lyndsay hadn't confirmed MM missing at that stage. Who rang JH?
2. and who informed him that a child, a minor, of the feminine sex, JH is informing RC that the missing child is female. just on 50% of minors are female.
3. who was staying with her family in that resort, had disappeared and that he was going to initiate the 'procedure for missing child' (sic); Once again nothing specific to point to the McCanns. The times given clash with his sworn statement that he wasn't aware of the McCann situation until 10:28 PM so doesn't that suggest to you it was a different family being described here?
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G-unit are there any clues in that post from Robin Crossland that proves he was talking about MM?
"1. was contacted by John Hill, Mark Warner manager who works in the Ocean Club establishment How could JH know about Madeleine missing that early as Amy and Lyndsay hadn't confirmed MM missing at that stage. Who rang JH?
2. and who informed him that a child, a minor, of the feminine sex, JH is informing RC that the missing child is female. just on 50% of minors are female.
3. who was staying with her family in that resort, had disappeared and that he was going to initiate the 'procedure for missing child' (sic); Once again nothing specific to point to the McCanns. The times given clash with his sworn statement that he wasn't aware of the McCann situation until 10:28 PM so doesn't that suggest to you it was a different family being described here?
Crossland's right hand woman was Silvia Batista, who worked for him and his partners for 21 years. She was informed by him at around 22.30. So John Hill rang Crossland and he rang Silvia. Crossland got the time wrong in my opinion.
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At 10.35 the police had still not arrived, so Gerry asked Matt if he would go back down to the twenty-four-hour reception and find out what was happening. John Hill, the Mark Warner resort manager, came up to the veranda behind our apartment. I remember screaming at him to do something. ‘Where are the police?’ I yelled at him.
[madeleine]
Matthew and Fiona make no mention of this second request. I think that's when John Hill sent Emma Knight to 5A after seeing how Kate was reacting. When she arrived only Fiona and Kate were there. A short while later Gerry and Russell came into 5A.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
They had begun the missing child procedure 10 minutes before informing manager John Hill. Emma went to apartment 5A straight away.
At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'.
I was told who the missing girl was and at the beginning of the procedure went to the McCann's apartment to obtain the girl's description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
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So very close to 10 pm a woman appears at the night creche. Was she there to share the news or to collect a child? We don't know, but I would have thought her name would have been known if she was collecting a child. She was said to be the mother of a child in the Toddler 2 group.
I have wondered if it could have been Fiona. She knew Madeleine had disappeared and she was out and about at that time. I can't work out why she wasn't identified, though. Anyone else would have had to have moved very quickly and decisively, however.
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Crossland's right hand woman was Silvia Batista, who worked for him and his partners for 21 years. She was informed by him at around 22.30. So John Hill rang Crossland and he rang Silvia. Crossland got the time wrong in my opinion.
What and the PJ hadn't noticed all these errors creeping into the statements! How many times have you have had to say they were mistaken by the time now? All those mistakes gone unnoticed by the PJ. I doubt that very much.
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They had begun the missing child procedure 10 minutes before informing manager John Hill. Emma went to apartment 5A straight away.
At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'.
I was told who the missing girl was and at the beginning of the procedure went to the McCann's apartment to obtain the girl's description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
Unless a time is specified I think we have to accept Emma Knights went to the apartment (to obtain the girl's description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared) before John Hill arrived on the scene.
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So very close to 10 pm a woman appears at the night creche. Was she there to share the news or to collect a child? We don't know, but I would have thought her name would have been known if she was collecting a child. She was said to be the mother of a child in the Toddler 2 group.
I have wondered if it could have been Fiona. She knew Madeleine had disappeared and she was out and about at that time. I can't work out why she wasn't identified, though. Anyone else would have had to have moved very quickly and decisively, however.
Look the only reason I can see is that there is an earlier incident the PJ and the Ocean Club wish to keep confidential. So the times and information is correct, it is just that the identifying detail is kept out of it.
You seem to have sensed that too when you say "I can't work out why she wasn't identified".
Fiona is so unlikely to have been that woman. They had the child monitor so they say they didn't move from the table.
It is the lady who had previously spoken to the man looking for the child that makes it all the way to the main reception. Trouble was he called her Maddie or Gabbie, so could the other missing child in the earlier incident be named Gabriel, so gets called Gabbie as much as Madeleine is shortened to Maddie?
For it is the deduction work by the creche staff who figure that it could have been Madeleine McCann, on a different day their deductions could have been all wrong, but that night they fluked it and got it right.
So I find I've made a concession here, either there was a another missing girl named Gabbie or there was someone looking for Madeleine up to 20 minutes before Kate came back saying Madeleine has gone.
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If Madeleine is living under an assumed identity it could be Gabriela, Gabrielle, Gabbie or something like that.
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Look the only reason I can see is that there is an earlier incident the PJ and the Ocean Club wish to keep confidential. So the times and information is correct, it is just that the identifying detail is kept out of it.
You seem to have sensed that too when you say "I can't work out why she wasn't identified".
Fiona is so unlikely to have been that woman. They had the child monitor so they say they didn't move from the table.
It is the lady who had previously spoken to the man looking for the child that makes it all the way to the main reception. Trouble was he called her Maddie or Gabbie, so could the other missing child in the earlier incident be named Gabriel, so gets called Gabbie as much as Madeleine is shortened to Maddie?
For it is the deduction work by the creche staff who figure that it could have been Madeleine McCann, on a different day their deductions could have been all wrong, but that night they fluked it and got it right.
So I find I've made a concession here, either there was a another missing girl named Gabbie or there was someone looking for Madeleine up to 20 minutes before Kate came back saying Madeleine has gone.
Fiona could have reached the night creche by 22.05; she went off on her own. Where did you get this 'man looking for the child' idea from?
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Look the only reason I can see is that there is an earlier incident the PJ and the Ocean Club wish to keep confidential. So the times and information is correct, it is just that the identifying detail is kept out of it.
You seem to have sensed that too when you say "I can't work out why she wasn't identified".
Fiona is so unlikely to have been that woman. They had the child monitor so they say they didn't move from the table.
It is the lady who had previously spoken to the man looking for the child that makes it all the way to the main reception. Trouble was he called her Maddie or Gabbie, so could the other missing child in the earlier incident be named Gabriel, so gets called Gabbie as much as Madeleine is shortened to Maddie?
For it is the deduction work by the creche staff who figure that it could have been Madeleine McCann, on a different day their deductions could have been all wrong, but that night they fluked it and got it right.
So I find I've made a concession here, either there was a another missing girl named Gabbie or there was someone looking for Madeleine up to 20 minutes before Kate came back saying Madeleine has gone.
I'm more inclined to think that the disappearance of Madeleine was discovered before 10 pm.
Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm
On the night of the disappearance, 3rd May, she was working in her bar when some employee who she cannot identify (but whom she knows works for Mark Warner) informed them that a girl had disappeared from the OC. The time would have been about 22.15.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JUNE_WRIGHT.htm
He heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21.30 - 21.40 from P**** B******, a Dutchman and owner of the Atlantico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in P da L and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BAREND_WEIJDOM.htm
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Fiona could have reached the night creche by 22.05; she went off on her own. Where did you get this 'man looking for the child' idea from?
Charlotte Pennington on the dispatches documentary IIRC.
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I'm more inclined to think that the disappearance of Madeleine was discovered before 10 pm.
Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm
On the night of the disappearance, 3rd May, she was working in her bar when some employee who she cannot identify (but whom she knows works for Mark Warner) informed them that a girl had disappeared from the OC. The time would have been about 22.15.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JUNE_WRIGHT.htm
He heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21.30 - 21.40 from P**** B******, a Dutchman and owner of the Atlantico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in P da L and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BAREND_WEIJDOM.htm
It starts to shrink the window of opportunity IMO.
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Charlotte Pennington on the dispatches documentary IIRC.
https://youtu.be/InJLmyakzeE?t=186 For what Charlotte says.
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https://youtu.be/InJLmyakzeE?t=186 For what Charlotte says.
Does that differ from her statement at the time?
If so, I'd go with the earlier statement as the more reliable.
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I'm more inclined to think that the disappearance of Madeleine was discovered before 10 pm.
... snip ....
He heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21.30 - 21.40 from P**** B******, a Dutchman and owner of the Atlantico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in P da L and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BAREND_WEIJDOM.htm
That statement from Barend would totally support my concept of an earlier incident.
"He then went to the place where the events occurred which was at about 21.45 - 21.50. At this time various local people and MW staff were present.
When questioned he said that the police wasn’t there yet but arrived about 5 minutes later.
He is actually saying the Police arrived at 10:00 PM or 22.00 Now how do you tie all that in with the actual phone call evidence and the reports from the GNR officers themselves that it was nearer 11:00 PM rather than 10:00 PM?
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Does that differ from her statement at the time?
If so, I'd go with the earlier statement as the more reliable.
You do what you like.
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https://youtu.be/InJLmyakzeE?t=186 For what Charlotte says.
I notice she says there was one child left and the woman was there to collect that child. According to her colleague;
The witness immediately helped in the searches, whilst her colleague Charlotte remained at the cręche, looking after the other children that were there and waiting for the arrival of the last parents, after which she also began searching.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
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I'm more inclined to think that the disappearance of Madeleine was discovered before 10 pm.
snip
On the night of the disappearance, 3rd May, she was working in her bar when some employee who she cannot identify (but whom she knows works for Mark Warner) informed them that a girl had disappeared from the OC. The time would have been about 22.15.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JUNE_WRIGHT.htm
snip
What June Wright says would tie perfectly with what Emma Knight said. 22.15 is around the time Lyndsay Johnson rang her.
"On the night of the disappearance, 3rd May, she was working in her bar when some employee who she cannot identify (but whom she knows works for Mark Warner) informed them that a girl had disappeared from the OC. The time would have been about 22.15."
So quoting her doesn't help your case.
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Charlotte Pennington on the dispatches documentary IIRC.
Look up Dawn Bullen.
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Look up Dawn Bullen.
I knew someone had attempted to work out who this lady was. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2705.msg233802#msg233802
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2705.msg233807#msg233807
Tapas booking sheet http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/T/03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_608.jpg
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I notice she says there was one child left and the woman was there to collect that child. According to her colleague;
The witness immediately helped in the searches, whilst her colleague Charlotte remained at the cręche, looking after the other children that were there and waiting for the arrival of the last parents, after which she also began searching.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
Well Charlotte doesn't say she left early. And it might have been later. for When Charlotte arrived Kate is outside.
A different time to Amy.
Looking at Amy's statement she doesn't actually say what alerted her to the issue.
"She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding."
Where was she when on duty?
Maybe I was wrong thinking she had to come all the way from the Creche. Maybe she was at the Baby Club?
"She confirms that she works as head of the Baby Club and Mini Club, the former being for children aged up to eleven months and the latter for children aged between three and five."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
If that was the case she could get to the McCanns apartment at the same time as the others as it is from basically the same place.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
Even thought Jacqueline stuffs that idea up "That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called "Maddie" has disappeared, and that the girl's parents needed help in looking for her."
I'd like to see them interviewed again.
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Well Charlotte doesn't say she left early. And it might have been later. for When Charlotte arrived Kate is outside.
A different time to Amy.
Looking at Amy's statement she doesn't actually say what alerted her to the issue.
"She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding."
Where was she when on duty?
Maybe I was wrong thinking she had to come all the way from the Creche. Maybe she was at the Baby Club?
"She confirms that she works as head of the Baby Club and Mini Club, the former being for children aged up to eleven months and the latter for children aged between three and five."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
If that was the case she could get to the McCanns apartment at the same time as the others as it is from basically the same place.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
Even thought Jacqueline stuffs that idea up "That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called "Maddie" has disappeared, and that the girl's parents needed help in looking for her."
I'd like to see them interviewed again.
Did OC have more than 1 evening creche on different sites ?
I'd have thought that all creche children would have been on 1 site, but more than happy to be corrected.
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Did OC have more than 1 evening creche on different sites ?
I'd have thought that all creche children would have been on 1 site, but more than happy to be corrected.
Not that I'm aware of.
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Not that I'm aware of.
The Minis and the Babies were in adjoining rooms upstairs above the main reception. The toddlers were in the tented building in the Tapas complex.
The principal space where the children from MiniClub and BabyClub are situated is in the same building as the Ocean Club complex reception
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm
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The Minis and the Babies were in adjoining rooms upstairs above the main reception. The toddlers were in the tented building in the Tapas complex.
The principal space where the children from MiniClub and BabyClub are situated is in the same building as the Ocean Club complex reception
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm
The question was about the night creche. Were there more than one location for the night creche. I think you have described the daytime creches.
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The question was about the night creche. Were there more than one location for the night creche. I think you have described the daytime creches.
No-one has ever said there was another one.
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No-one has ever said there was another one.
So we agree then do we?
Original question: Did OC have more than 1 evening creche on different sites ?
And I said:
"Not that I'm aware of."
And you say:
"No-one has ever said there was another one."
But they asked if there was another one.
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So we agree then do we?
Original question: Did OC have more than 1 evening creche on different sites ?
And I said:
"Not that I'm aware of."
And you say:
"No-one has ever said there was another one."
But they asked if there was another one.
Which would imply that there was only one place that Amy could have come from.
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Which would imply that there was only one place that Amy could have come from.
No that is not true for she seems to have had her own office in the same building as the Baby Club in the building by the Tapas Restaurant.
in her other statement Amy talks about her room. Do you think they meant her private accommodation or was it an office somewhere?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY-1.htm
"When on the night of 3rd May, at about 24.00, she was at her desk at the Tapas bar, inside the resort, when at a certain time, one of the friends of the McCann couple, Russell, asked for a USB memory stick reader, in order to print photographs of Madeleine. Immediately the deponent replied that she did not have an USB reader, but that she had a printer with this hardware, which could read from memory sticks.
She went to her room and returned to the Tapas with the printer where she printed out 20 to 30 photographs of the girl, using her own paper, in 10x15 format mentioned previously. The memory stick containing the photos belonged to the McCann couple, and came from their camera."
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No that is not true for she seems to have had her own office in the same building as the Baby Club in the building by the Tapas Restaurant.
in her other statement Amy talks about her room. Do you think they meant her private accommodation or was it an office somewhere?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY-1.htm
"When on the night of 3rd May, at about 24.00, she was at her desk at the Tapas bar, inside the resort, when at a certain time, one of the friends of the McCann couple, Russell, asked for a USB memory stick reader, in order to print photographs of Madeleine. Immediately the deponent replied that she did not have an USB reader, but that she had a printer with this hardware, which could read from memory sticks.
She went to her room and returned to the Tapas with the printer where she printed out 20 to 30 photographs of the girl, using her own paper, in 10x15 format mentioned previously. The memory stick containing the photos belonged to the McCann couple, and came from their camera."
That's 2 hours later, so not relevant.
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That's 2 hours later, so not relevant.
According to the girls there was only one child left to go home. Do you expect that all 3 staff to remain at the creche right to the end? No of course not.
"Which would imply that there was only one place that Amy could have come from" Not if Amy has an office over at the Tapas to work at too. She doesn't say where she was when first notified of the Maddy - Gabby situation so I do think it is a mistake if we make assumptions about it.
We actually need to ask her. Get it from her own mouth in her own words. Was she in the same building as Jacqueline and Charlotte at the time?
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The night creche is open until 11pm according to this witness and Charlotte remained at the night creche on 3 May 2007. Therefore, Amy and Jacqueline left to take part in the searches. I would estimate that being around 10:20pm IMO.
When questioned she said that the cręche also offered a free service permitting parents to leave their children in the care of the cręche workers during dinner between 19.15 and 23.00, seeing as the above mentioned situation occurred during this time and that she was on duty for that service on that night.
The witness immediately helped in the searches, whilst her colleague Charlotte remained at the cręche, looking after the other children that were there and waiting for the arrival of the last parents, after which she also began searching.
When questioned, she says that on 3rd May she began her shift at 17.15 remaining at the cręche with her colleagues Amy and Charlotte, until they heard about the disappearance.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
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The night creche is open until 11pm according to this witness and Charlotte remained at the night creche on 3 May 2007. Therefore, Amy and Jacqueline left to take part in the searches. I would estimate that being around 10:20pm IMO.
When questioned she said that the cręche also offered a free service permitting parents to leave their children in the care of the cręche workers during dinner between 19.15 and 23.00, seeing as the above mentioned situation occurred during this time and that she was on duty for that service on that night.
The witness immediately helped in the searches, whilst her colleague Charlotte remained at the cręche, looking after the other children that were there and waiting for the arrival of the last parents, after which she also began searching.
When questioned, she says that on 3rd May she began her shift at 17.15 remaining at the cręche with her colleagues Amy and Charlotte, until they heard about the disappearance.
At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
OK that is quite good but the wording is still not clear enough to be sure that when Jacqueline left her and Amy left together at the same time.
Look at this sentence:"The witness immediately helped in the searches, whilst her colleague Charlotte remained at the cręche, looking after the other children that were there and waiting for the arrival of the last parents, after which she also began searching."
It is clear Charlotte was the last to leave. But when Jacqueline leaves nothing is said about Amy going with her.
But from the sentence after that the three were at work together to begin with.
"When questioned, she says that on 3rd May she began her shift at 17.15 remaining at the cręche with her colleagues Amy and Charlotte, until they heard about the disappearance.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
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As I see it now is that Amy had already gone over to the Tapas, working at her desk, when she heard the commotion created by Kate she was able to very quickly enter the apartment. Hence there is no reason she couldn't have seen the window open and the shutter up as she was one of the first in there.
Much earlier in the thread I thought she had to walk all the way from the creche, but this is not necessary if she was already over there.
Therefore the time someone was aware a child was missing and being actively looked for is around 10 minutes prior to 10:05 for the Jacqueline gives that time, and it appears she was on foot so it would have taken around 10 minutes for that information to get from the apartment to the creche.
I submit someone was looking for "Maddy, Abby or Gabby" as early as 9:55 when IMO Kate's alarm was raised at around 10:03 plus 5 minutes = 10:08 PM.
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Nope! Amy phoned Lyndsay from the night creche and consequently she notified Emma Knight at 22:17 so Amy could not have been at apartment 5A before that time.
She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
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Nope! Amy phoned Lyndsay from the night creche and consequently she notified Emma Knight at 22:17 so Amy could not have been at apartment 5A before that time.
She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
Your logic seems to be missing a few steps.
When someone gets a phone call the receiver cannot tell where the caller is calling from (unless there is caller identity and it was noted in the statement)
You said "Amy phoned Lyndsay from the night creche and consequently she notified Emma Knight at 22:17 so Amy could not have been at apartment 5A before that time.
You are just making both of those "facts" up without the slightest bit of proof.
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Your logic seems to be missing a few steps.
When someone gets a phone call the receiver cannot tell where the caller is calling from (unless there is caller identity and it was noted in the statement)
You said "Amy phoned Lyndsay from the night creche and consequently she notified Emma Knight at 22:17 so Amy could not have been at apartment 5A before that time.
You are just making both of those "facts" up without the slightest bit of proof.
You're trying to move Amy away from the night creche despite evidence to the contrary;
remaining at the cręche with her colleagues Amy and Charlotte, until they heard about the disappearance.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
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You're trying to move Amy away from the night creche despite evidence to the contrary;
remaining at the cręche with her colleagues Amy and Charlotte, until they heard about the disappearance.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
But the first hint of a disappearance in the file (9:20 PM was a time mentioned by Arlindo IIRC) comes much earlier than that visit by the woman picking up her child.
"Disappearance" does not equate to the "disappearance of Madeleine McCann" in my understanding of the case." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm
I did a whole thread on trying to sort out Arlindo, and I'm not sure if I did.
"A few minutes later, when it was around 21H20, he heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared."
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But the first hint of a disappearance in the file (9:20 PM was a time mentioned by Arlindo IIRC) comes much earlier than that visit by the woman picking up her child.
"Disappearance" does not equate to the "disappearance of Madeleine McCann" in my understanding of the case." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm
I did a whole thread on trying to sort out Arlindo, and I'm not sure if I did.
"A few minutes later, when it was around 21H20, he heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared."
Nevertheless you are saying that Amy wasn't where her colleague said she was at the time given by her colleague Jacqueline. Are you accusing Jacqueline of lying?
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Nevertheless you are saying that Amy wasn't where her colleague said she was at the time given by her colleague Jacqueline. Are you accusing Jacqueline of lying?
Rather than just making an accusation how about presenting a detailed argument proving "that Amy wasn't where her colleague said she was at the time given by her colleague Jacqueline".
Step by step rather than cutting me down so quickly please.
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Nevertheless you are saying that Amy wasn't where her colleague said she was at the time given by her colleague Jacqueline. Are you accusing Jacqueline of lying?
Any time after 9:20 when Arlindo says there was a incident involving a disappearance there is the possibility that Amy headed over to The Tapas. Now I think that satisfies whatever Jacqueline says but if you can show otherwise please do.
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You are spreading myths. Did any of the tapas group say that Amy was there with them when the alarm was raised? No they did not because she was at the night creche working with her colleagues Jackie and Charlotte.
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You are spreading myths. Did any of the tapas group say that Amy was there with them when the alarm was raised? No they did not because she was at the night creche working with her colleagues Jackie and Charlotte.
It might be worth reading what Kate says again with this new idea in mind. I've never argued this before, so it needs a new look at the information. When does Kate say there was OC employees involved?
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You are spreading myths. Did any of the tapas group say that Amy was there with them when the alarm was raised? No they did not because she was at the night creche working with her colleagues Jackie and Charlotte.
Prove that "she was at the night creche working with her colleagues Jackie and Charlotte" at anytime after 22.00.
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Any time after 9:20 when Arlindo says there was a incident involving a disappearance there is the possibility that Amy headed over to The Tapas. Now I think that satisfies whatever Jacqueline says but if you can show otherwise please do.
That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
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Prove that "she was at the night creche working with her colleagues Jackie and Charlotte" at anytime after 22.00.
On the 3rd of May 2007, around 22H15, the witness was working during "dinner hour", together with her colleagues Jackie and Amy, when an unknown woman came to them indicating that she was a tourist lodged at the complex and asked them if they had heard about a disappearance of a child, whose name she referred to as "Maggie" or "Maddy";
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm
That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called "Maddie" has disappeared, and that the girl's parents needed help in looking for her.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
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That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
What I can only say is that there were 3 staff "on duty" and it might be considered that Amy was still on duty even if she was over at the Tapas, as long as she was contactable by phone or something like that. Does Amy herself ever say she was aware of this woman arriving while she was there?
"That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called "Maddie" has disappeared, and that the girl's parents needed help in looking for her."
You can be working that shift but not actually on site. I think that is a valid argument.
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The other two witnesses say Amy was with them. Nuff said!
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Quite soon after the alert Gerry lowered the shutter.
"Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside, he made the sickening discovery that it could be raised from this side, too, not just from the inside as we'd thought." Madeleine
But Amy says "She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding." So all this about being on duty doesn't necessarily mean she was at the creche.
To get there in time to see the shutters still raised must mean she wasn't all the way over at the night creche building.
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Kate actually puts a time on the next event "Just after 10.10, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club 24-hour reception to get the staff to call the police. All the shouting had alerted other guests and staff that something was amiss and various people were beginning to appear outside the apartment, front and back." But the shutter had been lowered before that, so Amy was there before that for she was aware ofGerry and Matt going off to call the police.
From Amy "The witness confirms that the girl's father went to the reception to call the police as soon as her disappearance was noticed and that twenty minutes had passed. The GNR took 30 to 35 minutes to arrive." OK that is what she thought at the time.
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Kate actually puts a time on the next event "Just after 10.10, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club 24-hour reception to get the staff to call the police. All the shouting had alerted other guests and staff that something was amiss and various people were beginning to appear outside the apartment, front and back." But the shutter had been lowered before that, so Amy was there before that for she was aware ofGerry and Matt going off to call the police.
From Amy "The witness confirms that the girl's father went to the reception to call the police as soon as her disappearance was noticed and that twenty minutes had passed. The GNR took 30 to 35 minutes to arrive." OK that is what she thought at the time.
So according to Kate there were people around at 22.10, According to Dianne Webster the place was deserted when she went for a wander round. So when did she do that?
Reply ”Yeah, you see there’s, there’s, I can’t quite get the timeline together because err at one point I also went out and had a walk round looking for her but I didn’t travel very far and I can’t remember at what point that was. It was obviously before I went back to the apartment to look after err Lily and Scarlet, now on that assumption I can only, I can only, I can only think that Fiona must have been in the apartment looking after them while I was out and my whole purpose of going back to the apartment was to let Fiona out for, to be with Kate.”
4078 ”Do you remember where you went when you had a little look?”
Reply ”Err well I wandered about, because I’ve got no sense of direction, but I certainly wandered about err to where they had, there was road works going on but I didn’t feel too happy being about on my own at that err because it was quite late.”
4078 ”Did you notice anybody else around when you were out?”
Reply ”No I didn’t, err and that’s what made it seem creepy, the fact I was wandering about on my own.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
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Quite soon after the alert Gerry lowered the shutter.
"Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside, he made the sickening discovery that it could be raised from this side, too, not just from the inside as we'd thought." Madeleine
But Amy says "She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding." So all this about being on duty doesn't necessarily mean she was at the creche.
To get there in time to see the shutters still raised must mean she wasn't all the way over at the night creche building.
No matter how you try to manipulate the evidence it doesn't work. To see the shutters raised and the window open Amy would have had to run up to the apartment with the group after Kate raised the alarm. She would have had to follow Kate, Gerry, Fiona and David up the steps, unnoticed by Rachael, Matthew and Russell. She would have had to enter the bedroom with Gerry. I know this lot weren't the most observant bunch, but really? She was with them and none of them noticed?
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No matter how you try to manipulate the evidence it doesn't work. To see the shutters raised and the window open Amy would have had to run up to the apartment with the group after Kate raised the alarm. She would have had to follow Kate, Gerry, Fiona and David up the steps, unnoticed by Rachael, Matthew and Russell. She would have had to enter the bedroom with Gerry. I know this lot weren't the most observant bunch, but really? She was with them and none of them noticed?
It doesn't have to be that quick, it could 1-2 minutes behind the main lot. but as long as it was ahead of Gerry closing the window and the shutters.
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So according to Kate there were people around at 22.10, According to Dianne Webster the place was deserted when she went for a wander round. So when did she do that?
Reply ”Yeah, you see there’s, there’s, I can’t quite get the timeline together because err at one point I also went out and had a walk round looking for her but I didn’t travel very far and I can’t remember at what point that was. It was obviously before I went back to the apartment to look after err Lily and Scarlet, now on that assumption I can only, I can only, I can only think that Fiona must have been in the apartment looking after them while I was out and my whole purpose of going back to the apartment was to let Fiona out for, to be with Kate.”
4078 ”Do you remember where you went when you had a little look?”
Reply ”Err well I wandered about, because I’ve got no sense of direction, but I certainly wandered about err to where they had, there was road works going on but I didn’t feel too happy being about on my own at that err because it was quite late.”
4078 ”Did you notice anybody else around when you were out?”
Reply ”No I didn’t, err and that’s what made it seem creepy, the fact I was wandering about on my own.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
I was hoping you'd raise the issue of Dianne Webster. Did this check actually happen. It didn't happen according to the timeline established by Control Risks. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10120.0
"Group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance + Control Risks Emma Knights etc."
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I was hoping you'd raise the issue of Dianne Webster. Did this check actually happen. It didn't happen according to the timeline established by Control Risks. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10120.0
"Group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance + Control Risks Emma Knights etc."
Dianne said it did, but she only said that in April 2008. Even so, she said it in a police interview and there are consequences for lying to the police. You quoted Kate McCann and I quoted Dianne Webster. Their accounts don't match, but you can't justify saying one is right and the other is wrong without supporting evidence in my opinion. Kate mentions 'all the shouting' but no-one has mentioned shouting before 22.10 except her. Perhaps that didn't happen.
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Dianne said it did, but she only said that in April 2008. Even so, she said it in a police interview and there are consequences for lying to the police. You quoted Kate McCann and I quoted Dianne Webster. Their accounts don't match, but you can't justify saying one is right and the other is wrong without supporting evidence in my opinion. Kate mentions 'all the shouting' but no-one has mentioned shouting before 22.10 except her. Perhaps that didn't happen.
Dianne didn't say she searched in her 11th May 2007 statement G-Unit.
I am not sure how she could say with precision that at 22.00 Kate McCann returned as she seems vague about other things. Anyway she waits for about 5 minutes then goes to 5A.
Therefore, she can only say with precision that, at 22.00 Kate McCann returned to the restaurant, seemingly in panic, communicating to others the fact that of Madeleine's disappearance. Asked about the reaction of other members of the group when they heard the above from KATE, the witness says that everyone, except the witness, left the restaurant and went to the apartment of the couple McCANN in order to find out what was going on.
In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN
snip
She is in the apartment for about 10 minutes then goes back to the restaurant
She adds that that night, and after the occurrence of the facts under investigation, have been in the the apartment on two separate occasions. At the time described above she remained about 10 minutes in the apartment. After this time she returned to the restaurant to get her handbag as well as the camera of the couple McCANN and "baby monitor" of her daughter, and was soon back again in the apartment.
snip
Then she went to look after the Payne's children and did not leave that apartment.
The question asked, she states to know that male members of the group undertook a search around [outside] the apartment to try to locate Madeleine, which was absolutely fruitless. The deponent states that FIONA had asked her to move to their daughters to make sure that everything would be well with them, hence the deponent will have returned to her apartment from which she did not leave.
No searching at all
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
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"She can only say with precision that, at 22.00 Kate McCann returned to the restaurant, seemingly in panic, communicating to others the fact that of Madeleine's disappearance."
Fascinating as DW later admitted that she did not look at her watch for the time!
Reply “Oh when she came back and Madeleine had been taken, yeah she, at that point she’d disappeared.”
4078 “Do you know what sort of time that was?”
Reply “Well no, again, you see I didn’t, I didn’t look at my watch, I’m only going on err I mean Dave would have been more aware of the time than I was.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
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Dianne said it did, but she only said that in April 2008. Even so, she said it in a police interview and there are consequences for lying to the police. You quoted Kate McCann and I quoted Dianne Webster. Their accounts don't match, but you can't justify saying one is right and the other is wrong without supporting evidence in my opinion. Kate mentions 'all the shouting' but no-one has mentioned shouting before 22.10 except her. Perhaps that didn't happen.
As I think DW kept it a secret that she took this walk. It is significant. I did a thread on it a year ago probably so I could recheck it. (Thread may have been removed).
I do quote that passage in this thread though http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7876.msg375574#msg375574
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My determination now is that since Amy Tierney's statement is dated 6th May 2007 "CRECHE WORKER 06 MAY 2007" Even though in the file the title in the index is incorrect i.e. "AMY ELLEN TIERNEY CRECHE 05 JUNE 2007"
There is no way Amy would have been aware of the shutters up, window open, who was in the apartment, when Gerry determined to ring the police, etc unless it was an actual experience. IMO based on the evidence presented I believe she was there in the apartment to observe Gerry shutting the window and shutters.
And even though she is over there rather than at the actual creche she is on duty for the reason she was over at her desk or office whatever it was she was still at work on duty.
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My determination now is that since Amy Tierney's statement is dated 6th May 2007 "CRECHE WORKER 06 MAY 2007" Even though in the file the title in the index is incorrect i.e. "AMY ELLEN TIERNEY CRECHE 05 JUNE 2007"
There is no way Amy would have been aware of the shutters up, window open, who was in the apartment, when Gerry determined to ring the police, etc unless it was an actual experience. IMO based on the evidence presented I believe she was there in the apartment to observe Gerry shutting the window and shutters.
And even though she is over there rather than at the actual creche she is on duty for the reason she was over at her desk or office whatever it was she was still at work on duty.
It's perfectly possible that she was repeating what she was told, rather than what she actually saw. Dianne was told things which she then claimed to have 'remembered'. The time the alarm was raised? It sounds like David told her that. Passing Matthew on her way to the restaurant? She 'remembered' only after David reminded her.
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Perhaps this is what Amy Tierney saw
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/05/article-0-022B5D4000000578-244_468x311.jpg)
After all at least two people had tried to open them from the outside so they may have stuck and this is what the police found so it could be what Amy Tierney saw too.
Fiona too says she tried opening shutters as well although it is unclear which shutters and whether she was inside or outside. She is clear that it wasn't the shutters in the children's bedroom but that is all.
Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn't actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
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Perhaps this is what Amy Tierney saw
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/05/article-0-022B5D4000000578-244_468x311.jpg)
After all at least two people had tried to open them from the outside so they may have stuck and this is what the police found so it could be what Amy Tierney saw too.
Fiona too says she tried opening shutters as well although it is unclear which shutters and whether she was inside or outside. She is clear that it wasn't the shutters in the children's bedroom but that is all.
Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn't actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Yet her finger prints weren't to be found on the shutter,tis a strange one innit.
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Yet her finger prints weren't to be found on the shutter,tis a strange one innit.
That makes three people who admitted to touching the shutter from outside ... gets stranger and stranger by the minute. Whose fingerprints was it that were lifted from amongst all the smudges and unusable ones?
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It's perfectly possible that she was repeating what she was told, rather than what she actually saw. Dianne was told things which she then claimed to have 'remembered'. The time the alarm was raised? It sounds like David told her that. Passing Matthew on her way to the restaurant? She 'remembered' only after David reminded her.
You tell me who would have told Amy?
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It's perfectly possible that she was repeating what she was told, rather than what she actually saw. Dianne was told things which she then claimed to have 'remembered'. The time the alarm was raised? It sounds like David told her that. Passing Matthew on her way to the restaurant? She 'remembered' only after David reminded her.
You’ve changed your tune, having previously stated that either she or FP were lying. Plenty of assumptions in your post btw.
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You’ve changed your tune, having previously stated that either she [Amy Tierney] or FP were lying. Plenty of assumptions in your post btw.
"She" being Amy Tierney I understand.
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Rachael's evidence was very confusing. She and Matthew went to check on Grace almost immediately, then he went off searching and she went to tell Jane about Madeleine;
Reply 'Okay, erm basically after Matt and I had checked on Grace, erm Matt went off to search and I went across to Jane's apartment cos she was there with Evie, erm and just told her that Madeleine had gone missing, erm and I must have known at that point that the window was open and the shutter was up, erm cos basically when I told her that....
...1578 'What time did you have the conversation with Jane on the, on the evening''
Reply 'On the night, erm I mean it was probably about ten fifteen, twenty past ten, something like that (inaudible)'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
So it took Rachael until 22.15 to alert Jane? How did she know about the window and shutters therefore if she went from the foot of 5A's steps to her apartment and then to 5D?
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You tell me who would have told Amy?
Kate seemed to be telling everyone; Dianne, Fiona, so why not Amy?
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Rachael's evidence was very confusing. She and Matthew went to check on Grace almost immediately, then he went off searching and she went to tell Jane about Madeleine;
Reply 'Okay, erm basically after Matt and I had checked on Grace, erm Matt went off to search and I went across to Jane's apartment cos she was there with Evie, erm and just told her that Madeleine had gone missing, erm and I must have known at that point that the window was open and the shutter was up, erm cos basically when I told her that....
...1578 'What time did you have the conversation with Jane on the, on the evening''
Reply 'On the night, erm I mean it was probably about ten fifteen, twenty past ten, something like that (inaudible)'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
So it took Rachael until 22.15 to alert Jane? How did she know about the window and shutters therefore if she went from the foot of 5A's steps to her apartment and then to 5D?
Rachael's apartment needed to be opened from the car park side first. Therefore she would have seen the shutters up at that time. Once it was open then it was possible to visit the other apartments via the patio side or along the front door side of the building.
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Rachael's apartment needed to be opened from the car park side first. Therefore she would have seen the shutters up at that time. Once it was open then it was possible to visit the other apartments via the patio side or along the front door side of the building.
It seems she spoke to Kate before she went to see Jane.
Immediately, all of the group, except DIANE, stood up heading for the apartments, and the witness went to see if her daughter was well. Soon after, the men of the group started to do a search around the apartments in an attempt to find the child, at which time KATE said that the window blinds of MADELEINE's bedroom were open and, as such, she had been taken by someone.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-11-MAY07.htm
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It seems she spoke to Kate before she went to see Jane.
Immediately, all of the group, except DIANE, stood up heading for the apartments, and the witness went to see if her daughter was well. Soon after, the men of the group started to do a search around the apartments in an attempt to find the child, at which time KATE said that the window blinds of MADELEINE's bedroom were open and, as such, she had been taken by someone.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-11-MAY07.htm
They may have transited through the McCann's apartment first for Kate says she searched the car park on returning with the Tapas friends. If they were on that side of the building Kate could have easily pointed out the raised shutter to Rachael.
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They may have transited through the McCann's apartment first for Kate says she searched the car park on returning with the Tapas friends. If they were on that side of the building Kate could have easily pointed out the raised shutter to Rachael.
I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I'm not sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know, she's gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on Grace to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
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I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I'm not sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know, she's gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on Grace to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Being almost 100% sure is good enough for some,but when Rowley says that they are almost certain Tannerman was no abductor there is room for doubt,tis strange.
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I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I'm not sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know, she's gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on Grace to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
OK so they went around the back along the footpath.
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Being almost 100% sure is good enough for some,but when Rowley says that they are almost certain Tannerman was no abductor there is room for doubt,tis strange.
In this case it makes no realistic difference. But if they did go through the apartment you'd think they would have noticed the shutters up, but less likely if they went around the footpath IMO.
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OK so they went around the back along the footpath.
Do you mean they went in through the main entrance to the apartments?
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Do you mean they went in through the main entrance to the apartments?
Yes Amy called it the back, some call it the front, but main entrance will do.
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I am not sure if this helps but I have Amy searching the gardens around 10.30pm. This is Leanne Wagstaff's statement. She was with two colleagues Kirsty and Sara. There statements are below too.
On the night of the disappearance she was not working and had gone to a bar with colleagues. When she was heading for the bar from home at about 22.30 she saw her colleague Amy in the garden with a torch, searching for something.
She immediately asked what was happening and was told that a girl had disappeared. At first she thought it was a joke, but then she also began to search. She say that she searched everywhere.
She adds that there is a procedure in case a child goes missing, that they complied with this procedure, which indicated the areas that should be searched in order to find the child.
When asked, she says that she does not know at what moment the police (GNR) were called, but she remembers that when she returned from searching the GNR had arrived.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEANNE-DANIELLE-WAGSTAFF.htm
Leanne was with Sara Williamson. This is Sara's statement
On 3rd May at about 22.30 after having left the apartment where she was living, near to the resort, together with two of her colleagues, Leanne and Kirsty, she met her colleague Amy. She was informed by Amy that Madeleine had disappeared and that she was trying to look for her. For this reason, the witness together with her colleagues joined in the search.
In the search carried out with her colleagues from the OC other individuals (tourists, locals, property owners) also participated.
Later, she cannot say exactly at what time but thinks it was about midnight she noticed officers from the public authorities (police) at the scene taking the appropriate measures for this kind of situation.
When asked, she says that the searches undertaken by OC employees finished at around 04.00 on 4th May with negative results.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SARA-ELIZABETH-WILLIAMSON.htm
And finally Kirsty Maryan
That on the 03 of May, 200, at around 22h30, after having left the apartment where she is living, close to the establishment mentioned, together with two more colleagues, also residents there, whose name are Leanne and Sarah, she found her colleague Amy. That during their discussion she was informed that Madeleine McCann had disappeared and that they were looking for her. For this reason, together with her colleagues, they also began searching for Madeleine McCann;
. That during the search she carried out, together with her colleagues (employees of the Ocean Club) others were also participating from the establishment ion question;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KIRSTY-MARYAN.htm
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This is quite a useful summary of some of the reports on the Missing Child Procedure.
"Charlotte Pennington, Childcare worker
"On the 3rd of May 2007, around 22H15, the witness was working during “dinner hour”, together with her colleagues Jackie and Amy, when an unknown woman came to them indicating that she was a tourist lodged at the complex and asked them if they had heard about a disappearance of a child, whose name she referred to as “Maggie” or “Maddy”;"
Jacqueleine Mary Williams, Childcare worker
"That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the “dinner time period” together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called “Maddie” has disappeared, and that the girl’s parents needed help in looking for her."
Lyndsay Jayne Johnson, Creche Supervisor
"On 3rd May at about 22.20 she was informed by her colleague Amy Tierney that Madeleine had disappeared, a fact which led to the initiation of the “Missing Child” procedure which consists of dividing various areas of the resort up between different employees in order to proceed in the search for the missing child."
John Hill, Warner Manager
"With regard to the facts of the investigation. Statements show that he knew of these facts by means of a phone call from Lindsay, head of the child care service, who told him about a female child staying at the resort who had disappeared. This phone call was made to the deponent’s mobile phone at about 22.28 on 03-05-2007. About 5 minutes later the deponent presented himself at the resort, because Lindsay had told him that she had initiated the procedure for missing children used by the company and the child had not been found. Upon arriving at the scene he saw about 100 people, employees, guests and residents searching the grounds, the beach and adjoining areas calling out the child’s name."
George Crossland, Ocean Club manager
"That at around 22h15 of 03 May 2007, he was alone in his residence, situated in Lagos, and was contacted by John Hill, Mark Warner manager who works in the Ocean Club establishment and who informed him that a child, a minor, of the feminine sex, who was staying with her family in that resort, had disappeared and that he was going to initiate the “procedure for missing child” (sic);"
from http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/41720163/Analysis%20and%20Rebuttal%20of%20Pat%20Brown%27s%20ebook%20%22Profile%20of%20the%20Disappearance%20of%20Madeleine%20McCann%20%28UPDATE