The Ocean Club organised missing child procedures - who, where, when, what?

[Robittybob1]

Quite soon after the alert Gerry lowered the shutter.
"Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window.  Rushing outside,  he made the sickening discovery that it could be raised from this side, too,  not just from the inside as we'd thought." Madeleine

But Amy says "She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding."  So all this about being on duty doesn't necessarily mean she was at the creche.
To get there in time to see the shutters still raised must mean she wasn't all the way over at the night creche building. 

[Robittybob1]

Kate actually puts a time on the next event "Just after 10.10, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club 24-hour reception to get the staff to call the police. All the shouting had alerted other guests and staff that something was amiss and various people were beginning to appear outside the apartment, front and back."  But the shutter had been lowered before that, so Amy was there before that for she was aware ofGerry and Matt going off to call the police.
From Amy "The witness confirms that the girl's father went to the reception to call the police as soon as her disappearance was noticed and that twenty minutes had passed. The GNR took 30 to 35 minutes to arrive."  OK that is what she thought at the time.

[G-Unit]

Kate actually puts a time on the next event "Just after 10.10, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club 24-hour reception to get the staff to call the police. All the shouting had alerted other guests and staff that something was amiss and various people were beginning to appear outside the apartment, front and back."  But the shutter had been lowered before that, so Amy was there before that for she was aware ofGerry and Matt going off to call the police.
From Amy "The witness confirms that the girl's father went to the reception to call the police as soon as her disappearance was noticed and that twenty minutes had passed. The GNR took 30 to 35 minutes to arrive."  OK that is what she thought at the time.

So according to Kate there were people around at 22.10, According to Dianne Webster the place was deserted when she went for a wander round. So when did she do that?

Reply    ”Yeah, you see there’s, there’s, I can’t quite get the timeline together because err at one point I also went out and had a walk round looking for her but I didn’t travel very far and I can’t remember at what point that was. It was obviously before I went back to the apartment to look after err Lily and Scarlet, now on that assumption I can only, I can only, I can only think that Fiona must have been in the apartment looking after them while I was out and my whole purpose of going back to the apartment was to let Fiona out for, to be with Kate.”

 

 4078    ”Do you remember where you went when you had a little look?”

 Reply    ”Err well I wandered about, because I’ve got no sense of direction, but I certainly wandered about err to where they had, there was road works going on but I didn’t feel too happy being about on my own at that err because it was quite late.”

4078    ”Did you notice anybody else around when you were out?”

 Reply    ”No I didn’t, err and that’s what made it seem creepy, the fact I was wandering about on my own.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm

[G-Unit]

Quite soon after the alert Gerry lowered the shutter.
"Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window.  Rushing outside,  he made the sickening discovery that it could be raised from this side, too,  not just from the inside as we'd thought." Madeleine

But Amy says "She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding."  So all this about being on duty doesn't necessarily mean she was at the creche.
To get there in time to see the shutters still raised must mean she wasn't all the way over at the night creche building.

No matter how you try to manipulate the evidence it doesn't work. To see the shutters raised and the window open Amy would have had to run up to the apartment with the group after Kate raised the alarm. She would have had to follow Kate, Gerry, Fiona and David up the steps, unnoticed by Rachael, Matthew and Russell. She would have had to enter the bedroom with Gerry. I know this lot weren't the most observant bunch, but really? She was with them and none of them noticed?

[Robittybob1]

No matter how you try to manipulate the evidence it doesn't work. To see the shutters raised and the window open Amy would have had to run up to the apartment with the group after Kate raised the alarm. She would have had to follow Kate, Gerry, Fiona and David up the steps, unnoticed by Rachael, Matthew and Russell. She would have had to enter the bedroom with Gerry. I know this lot weren't the most observant bunch, but really? She was with them and none of them noticed?

It doesn't have to be that quick, it could 1-2 minutes behind the main lot. but as long as it was ahead of Gerry closing the window and the shutters.

[Robittybob1]

So according to Kate there were people around at 22.10, According to Dianne Webster the place was deserted when she went for a wander round. So when did she do that?

Reply    ”Yeah, you see there’s, there’s, I can’t quite get the timeline together because err at one point I also went out and had a walk round looking for her but I didn’t travel very far and I can’t remember at what point that was. It was obviously before I went back to the apartment to look after err Lily and Scarlet, now on that assumption I can only, I can only, I can only think that Fiona must have been in the apartment looking after them while I was out and my whole purpose of going back to the apartment was to let Fiona out for, to be with Kate.”

 

 4078    ”Do you remember where you went when you had a little look?”

 Reply    ”Err well I wandered about, because I’ve got no sense of direction, but I certainly wandered about err to where they had, there was road works going on but I didn’t feel too happy being about on my own at that err because it was quite late.”

4078    ”Did you notice anybody else around when you were out?”

 Reply    ”No I didn’t, err and that’s what made it seem creepy, the fact I was wandering about on my own.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm

I was hoping you'd raise the issue of Dianne Webster.  Did this check actually happen.  It didn't happen according to the timeline established by Control Risks. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10120.0
"Group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance + Control Risks Emma Knights etc."

[G-Unit]

I was hoping you'd raise the issue of Dianne Webster.  Did this check actually happen.  It didn't happen according to the timeline established by Control Risks. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10120.0
"Group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance + Control Risks Emma Knights etc."

Dianne said it did, but she only said that in April 2008. Even so, she said it in a police interview and there are consequences for lying to the police. You quoted Kate McCann and I quoted Dianne Webster. Their accounts don't match, but you can't justify saying one is right and the other is wrong without supporting evidence in my opinion. Kate mentions 'all the shouting' but no-one has mentioned shouting before 22.10 except her. Perhaps that didn't happen.

[Sunny]

Dianne said it did, but she only said that in April 2008. Even so, she said it in a police interview and there are consequences for lying to the police. You quoted Kate McCann and I quoted Dianne Webster. Their accounts don't match, but you can't justify saying one is right and the other is wrong without supporting evidence in my opinion. Kate mentions 'all the shouting' but no-one has mentioned shouting before 22.10 except her. Perhaps that didn't happen.

Dianne didn't say she searched in her 11th May 2007 statement G-Unit.

I am not sure how she could say with precision that at 22.00 Kate McCann returned as she seems vague about other things. Anyway she waits for about 5 minutes then goes to 5A.

Therefore, she can only say with precision that, at 22.00 Kate McCann returned to the restaurant, seemingly in panic, communicating to others the fact that of Madeleine's disappearance. Asked about the reaction of other members of the group when they heard the above from KATE, the witness says that everyone, except the witness, left the restaurant and went to the apartment of the couple McCANN in order to find out what was going on.
In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN

snip

She is in the apartment for about 10 minutes then goes back to the restaurant

She adds that that night, and after the occurrence of the facts under investigation, have been in the the apartment on two separate occasions. At the time described above she remained about 10 minutes in the apartment. After this time she returned to the restaurant to get her handbag as well as the camera of the couple McCANN and "baby monitor" of her daughter, and was soon back again in the apartment.

snip

Then she went to look after the Payne's children and did not leave that apartment.

The question asked, she states to know that male members of the group undertook a search around [outside] the apartment to try to locate Madeleine, which was absolutely fruitless. The deponent states that FIONA had asked her to move to their daughters to make sure that everything would be well with them, hence the deponent will have returned to her apartment from which she did not leave.

No searching at all

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm

[pathfinder73]

"She can only say with precision that, at 22.00 Kate McCann returned to the restaurant, seemingly in panic, communicating to others the fact that of Madeleine's disappearance."

Fascinating as DW later admitted that she did not look at her watch for the time!

Reply    “Oh when she came back and Madeleine had been taken, yeah she, at that point she’d disappeared.”

4078    “Do you know what sort of time that was?”

 Reply    “Well no, again, you see I didn’t, I didn’t look at my watch, I’m only going on err I mean Dave would have been more aware of the time than I was.”

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm

[Robittybob1]

Dianne said it did, but she only said that in April 2008. Even so, she said it in a police interview and there are consequences for lying to the police. You quoted Kate McCann and I quoted Dianne Webster. Their accounts don't match, but you can't justify saying one is right and the other is wrong without supporting evidence in my opinion. Kate mentions 'all the shouting' but no-one has mentioned shouting before 22.10 except her. Perhaps that didn't happen.

As I think DW kept it a secret that she took this walk.  It is significant.  I did a thread on it a year ago probably so I could recheck it. (Thread may have been removed).
I do quote that passage in this thread though http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7876.msg375574#msg375574

[Robittybob1]

My determination now is that since Amy Tierney's statement is dated 6th May 2007 "CRECHE WORKER  06 MAY 2007"  Even though in the file the title in the index is incorrect i.e. "AMY ELLEN TIERNEY CRECHE 05 JUNE 2007"

There is no way Amy would have been aware of the shutters up, window open, who was in the apartment, when Gerry determined to ring the police, etc unless it was an actual experience.  IMO based on the evidence presented I believe she was there in the apartment to observe Gerry shutting the window and shutters.
And even though she is over there rather than at the actual creche she is on duty for the reason she was over at her desk or office whatever it was she was still at work on duty.

[G-Unit]

My determination now is that since Amy Tierney's statement is dated 6th May 2007 "CRECHE WORKER  06 MAY 2007"  Even though in the file the title in the index is incorrect i.e. "AMY ELLEN TIERNEY CRECHE 05 JUNE 2007"

There is no way Amy would have been aware of the shutters up, window open, who was in the apartment, when Gerry determined to ring the police, etc unless it was an actual experience.  IMO based on the evidence presented I believe she was there in the apartment to observe Gerry shutting the window and shutters.
And even though she is over there rather than at the actual creche she is on duty for the reason she was over at her desk or office whatever it was she was still at work on duty.

It's perfectly possible that she was repeating what she was told, rather than what she actually saw. Dianne was told things which she then claimed to have 'remembered'. The time the alarm was raised? It sounds like David told her that. Passing Matthew on her way to the restaurant? She 'remembered' only after David reminded her.

[Sunny]

Perhaps this is what Amy Tierney saw



After all at least two people had tried to open them from the outside so they may have stuck and this is what the police found so it could be what Amy Tierney saw too.

Fiona too says she tried opening shutters as well although it is unclear which shutters and whether she was inside or outside.  She is clear that it wasn't the shutters in the children's bedroom but that is all.


Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn't actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside'.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

[barrier]

Perhaps this is what Amy Tierney saw



After all at least two people had tried to open them from the outside so they may have stuck and this is what the police found so it could be what Amy Tierney saw too.

Fiona too says she tried opening shutters as well although it is unclear which shutters and whether she was inside or outside.  She is clear that it wasn't the shutters in the children's bedroom but that is all.


Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn't actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside'.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Yet her finger prints weren't to be found on the shutter,tis a strange one innit.

[Brietta]

Yet her finger prints weren't to be found on the shutter,tis a strange one innit.

That makes three people who admitted to touching the shutter from outside ... gets stranger and stranger by the minute.  Whose fingerprints was it that were lifted from amongst all the smudges and unusable ones?