Where was Gerry immediately after Kate found Madeleine gone at 10pm?

[stephen25000]

Both statements are true and support thr McCanns innicence

Innocence of what ?

[jassi]

Innocence of what ?

Anything and everything, of course 

[Eleanor]

It is quite obvious to me that Madeleine was not found to be missing before 10pm.  So some people were mistaken about the times.  Even Mr. Smith's timed and dated receipt came into question.
So why hide these first hand statements?  Unless it is to confuse Internet Posters.  I know what I think.  And Sadie isn't far wrong.

[John]

Members are asked to please refrain from posting their own previous posts as quotes.  This is spamming.

[pathfinder73]

Jeronimo was very good on observation but poor on times.

He gave two lots of times, IIRC
1)  21H30 and 22H00
2)  22.20  - ?  ( I forget the later time.

THere was a big space in the middle, but he says he saw Gerry searching whilst Diane was still there on her own.  She left at 10.05 or soon after (lets guess at 10.07)

As said before Jeronimo was not so good on times but he was good on observation of what went on.

Stop repeating incorrect times! Dianne saw that Russell only had two bites of his steak when Kate came running. This way before 10pm so I don't know where you get 10.05 or 10.07. You'll find the evidence in the witness interviews not by guessing!

"When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45." (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira - Tapas waiter)

That is Russell! Confirmed he came back at 9.45 as Russell himself said by the waiter that served him his reheated steak. So how did he only have two bites of his steak 15 minutes later at 10pm when Kate came running? It's not possible. He had his steak brought to the table much earlier than 10pm!

"He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group? David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell's food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner. David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area. (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira - Tapas waiter)

No Gerry seen in this statement - only David and Matt seen searching the tapas area. All searching this area just before 10pm anyway so it has no bearing on where Gerry was 10 to 10.10?

The 10pm Kate going to check myth should be buried once and for all!

[Benice]

Stop repeating incorrect times! Dianne saw that Russell only had two bites of his steak when Kate came running. This way before 10pm so I don't know where you get 10.05 or 10.07. You'll find the evidence in the witness interviews not by guessing!

"When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45." (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira - Tapas waiter)

That is Russell! Confirmed he came back at 9.45 as Russell himself said by the waiter that served him his reheated steak. So how did he only have two bites of his steak 15 minutes later at 10pm when Kate came running? It's not possible. He had his steak brought to the table much earlier than 10pm!

"He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group? David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell's food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner. David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area. (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira - Tapas waiter)

No Gerry seen in this statement - only David and Matt seen searching the tapas area. All searching this area just before 10pm anyway so it has no bearing on where Gerry was 10 to 10.10?

From memory so apols in advance  if I'm wrong  - but I don't think Russell was served his 'reheated' steak.   IIRC a fresh steak was cooked for him - which, if cooking it was not commenced  until after he had returned to the table, (which seems likely), would have taken longer than merely presenting him with a plate of food which had been kept warm in his absence.  IMO

TBH as no-one could be absolutely certain - down to the last second - of the times they did different things - it's a pretty pointless exercise imo.

IMO no way would Gerry have a plan which included being away from the complex disposing of Madeleine's body after the alarm had been raised - simply because he had no way of knowing in advance what time the police would arrive.  It could have been within 5/10 mins of the alarm being raised for all he knew.    Would he take such a risk when there were far simpler ways of disposing of a body available to him?   Not a chance IMO.

[sadie]

Stop repeating incorrect times! Dianne saw that Russell only had two bites of his steak when Kate came running. This way before 10pm so I don't know where you get 10.05 or 10.07. You'll find the evidence in the witness interviews not by guessing!

1)  No it wasn't.  Russell was delayed.  Because he and Jane had to share responsibility for looking after his sick daughter, he had only returned to the restauarant at IIRC 9.45.  The waiter insisted on cooking him a new steak and that is why he had only taken 2 bites out of it. Preparation and cooking time.

2)  IIRC 10.05 ar a little later comes from Diane Websters one statement.  It certainly is mentioned in a statement and that can only be Dianes.

"When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45." (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira - Tapas waiter)

3)  That would be Russell with reasons as mentioned above

That is Russell! Confirmed he came back at 9.45 as Russell himself said by the waiter that served him his reheated steak. So how did he only have two bites of his steak 15 minutes later at 10pm when Kate came running? It's not possible. He had his steak brought to the table much earlier than 10pm!

4)  It wasn't reheated .  Wrong again.  A new piece of steak was cooked.
Pls read the statements and absorb facts. Do not spin them.  It was a new piece of steak, which had to be fetched, prepared and cooked, then served with presumably hot vegetables.  10 pm for serving thta seems pretty quick to me.

"He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group? David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell's food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner. David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area. (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira - Tapas waiter) 

No Gerry seen in this statement - only David and Matt seen searching the tapas area. All searching this area just before 10pm anyway so it has no bearing on where Gerry was 10 to 10.10?

Quite right.  Nothing about Gerry in Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveiras staement at all. 
It was in Jeronimos and Dianes statements IIRC that Gerry was searching frantically ... and came to speak to Diane.  She left at about 9.05 or a lttle later.    I think one place it was reported that she left at 10.05 - 10.10 and in another statement it said she left at 10.05 or a little after.  I amhappy to be corrected on the 10.10 time if I have rememberd incorrectly, but am pretty sure

Not everything is in everybodies statement you know.  Some things will not be in anybodies statements, but it doesn't mean they didn't happen

The 10pm Kate going to check myth should be buried once and for all!

Try and get your facts right, old boy ...


That is only a myth made up by people like you, who cant be bothered to get your facts right and are determined to put the boot on with the Mccanns.   

I have thouoghly read all the waiters and Tapas group statements, but thanks to you lot keep insisting on cites, my eyesight has deteriorated and I have difficulty reading now.  Fortunately I have pretty good recall which beats your "so called facts" into Top Hats

There is absolutely no reason to think that Kate did not go back to 5A at the time she and others in the group stated.  At about 10 pm

Another silly myth of yours proved incorrect

As I said, make sure you read all the statements and understand them.  Try and get your facts right, there's a good chap

[Anna]

Dianne Webster...Excerpt:-


to table and err they’d actually cooked him a fresh steak and he was just starting to tuck into it when err Kate had obviously gone back to check on the children, came running in you know, as far as I can recollect she said you know she’s gone, Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, screaming you know.”

PC: "How did she look?”

DW: "Well I don’t know, frightened or absolutely, well, it’s very difficult to take in when something like that, you know, you’re just sitting at a table having what was a nice meal and err everybody just, you know, stopped what they were doing and just got up and Fiona said to me you know, I said what do you want me to do and she said you stay there in case err you know if Madeleine, because at that time we didn’t know what had happened because I think Gerry had sort of said to Kate oh she can’t be, you know. Err so I, I stayed at the table in case Madeleine had wandered off and she might come looking round the restaurant. Err this is when it gets all a bit confusing because I’ve no idea how long I, I stayed there. I don’t, I don’t think it was that long and I know that at one point, again, this wasn’t in my original statement, Dave did come back to the table and say can, can you just go back to the apartment, but all this is very, very, very vague and I know when I left the table I went, I did go into err Kate and Gerry’s err apartment, which was just absolute err just terrible.”

PC: "What did you see when you got there?”

DW: "What did I see? Well Kate and Gerry, Gerry was absolutely, absolutely distraught, absolute, you know, I mean I’ve never heard a man make the noises he made, err and Kate, Kate was just err you can’t, you just can’t put into words how they were I mean they were just, I remember I went through into the room where err where Madeleine was sleeping and err and she said you know, somebody, you know, she’s been taken because she said that the shutters and that had been open, the window open. Err the twins were still asleep in the cot and I, with all the noise going on I don’t know how they slept through it which makes me think there was, they must have been err drugged with something.”

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post442.html#p442

[sadie]

From memory so apols in advance  if I'm wrong  - but I don't think Russell was served his 'reheated' steak.   IIRC a fresh steak was cooked for him - which, if cooking it was not commenced  until after he had returned to the table, (which seems likely), would have taken longer than merely presenting him with a plate of food which had been kept warm in his absence.  IMO

TBH as no-one could be absolutely certain - down to the last second - of the times they did different things - it's a pretty pointless exercise imo.

IMO no way would Gerry have a plan which included being away from the complex disposing of Madeleine's body after the alarm had been raised - simply because he had no way of knowing in advance what time the police would arrive.  It could have been within 5/10 mins of the alarm being raised for all he knew.    Would he take such a risk when there were far simpler ways of disposing of a body available to him?   Not a chance IMO.

You got there first 

IMO no way would Gerry have a plan which included being away from the complex disposing of Madeleine's body after the alarm had been raised - simply because he had no way of knowing in advance what time the police would arrive.  It could have been within 5/10 mins of the alarm being raised for all he knew.    Would he take such a risk when there were far simpler ways of disposing of a body available to him?   Not a chance IMO.

Exactly, and would he parade his dead daughter through the streets without any attempt to hide her


Anyone thta thinks that must be stark raving bonkers

That medium height Smithman was not even as tall as the impressively tall Gerry




What a load of twaddle we are hearing.

[Kazcutt]

Where is Gerry from 10 to 10.10? Read the rog interviews from the others. Fiona was doing first searches with Matt, David and Russ. After telling Matt to call the police she goes to see Kate who is alone in 5A. Gerry has vanished like Madeleine. You don't find that unusual?

In the dining room with the candle stick

[sadie]

Dianne Webster...Excerpt:-


to table and err they’d actually cooked him a fresh steak and he was just starting to tuck into it when err Kate had obviously gone back to check on the children, came running in you know, as far as I can recollect she said you know she’s gone, Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, screaming you know.”

PC: "How did she look?”

DW: "Well I don’t know, frightened or absolutely, well, it’s very difficult to take in when something like that, you know, you’re just sitting at a table having what was a nice meal and err everybody just, you know, stopped what they were doing and just got up and Fiona said to me you know, I said what do you want me to do and she said you stay there in case err you know if Madeleine, because at that time we didn’t know what had happened because I think Gerry had sort of said to Kate oh she can’t be, you know. Err so I, I stayed at the table in case Madeleine had wandered off and she might come looking round the restaurant. Err this is when it gets all a bit confusing because I’ve no idea how long I, I stayed there. I don’t, I don’t think it was that long and I know that at one point, again, this wasn’t in my original statement, Dave did come back to the table and say can, can you just go back to the apartment, but all this is very, very, very vague and I know when I left the table I went, I did go into err Kate and Gerry’s err apartment, which was just absolute err just terrible.”

PC: "What did you see when you got there?”

DW: "What did I see? Well Kate and Gerry, Gerry was absolutely, absolutely distraught, absolute, you know, I mean I’ve never heard a man make the noises he made, err and Kate, Kate was just err you can’t, you just can’t put into words how they were I mean they were just, I remember I went through into the room where err where Madeleine was sleeping and err and she said you know, somebody, you know, she’s been taken because she said that the shutters and that had been open, the window open. Err the twins were still asleep in the cot and I, with all the noise going on I don’t know how they slept through it which makes me think there was, they must have been err drugged with something.”

Thanks Anna.  (the fastest statement spotter in the west!)  Have you got the bit where she states the time she left?  It must be in another statement.  I think she made three statements in all.

Have to go out now.  Loads of things to catch up with.

[The Singularity]

If there was any ambiguity as to where Mr McCann was then I am fairly sure that would have been one of the first avenues of the initial investigation and the subsequent review investigation. Basic investigative techniques is to clear both parents or guardians as soon as is possible.

I’ve seen threads like this before where someone questions the timeline to crowbar in a suspicion crudely in the hope that someone will pick it up and run with it. It will be “erroneous and unnecessary” car rides next. Or blue bags, freezers, pet cemeteries, the Fourth Reich, Vatican hit men etc.

Whereas I am a great believer in questioning everything, there are some things that tend to prove resilient to close scrutiny over time and to think that two investigations missed or neglected to establish where the father of a missing child was in the crucial time window she went missing is commendable but absurd. 

I think between the statements taken at the time, the follow up statements from witnesses, the review team then going over these with a fine toothed comb it is safe to conclude as arm chair sleuths, as has the investigating officers, that Mr McCann can account for his movements and there were witnesses to back it up.

If there wasn’t it would have been flagged straight away and it wouldn’t have been Kate being grilled in the police station but Gerry.

[Eleanor]

A Good Post, Singularity.  Spot on.

[Estuarine]

Oh well let's have another try on this tedious story.
One judges people by their deeds not their words (or talk is cheap if you prefer).
When push came to shove the T9 were a no show because they all had ring twitter.

[Anna]

Time Reports and some more on missing states etc A bit long I'm afraid

Missing pages and Rog statements of Neil and friend

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post116725.html#p116725


Subject: Group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance





Earliest Report
Date:14-08-2007


Dear Sirs,

This report contains a summary of the 'timeline' that shows the movements of the group after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from apartment G5A in the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz on 3rd May 2007. It is centred on the McCann family and the group of friends who travelled with them on holiday to Portugal.

This 'timeline' was created based upon translations of statements made by elements of the group to the Portuguese police, from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group and by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner, from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police and from questioning carried out at that time.

At about 22.00 when Kate Healy returned to the apartment to check on the children, the rest of the group were at the Tapas Bar/Restaurant except for Jane Tanner, who was in her apartment G5D as, Evie, one of her children was unwell.

When Kate discovered that her daughter Madeleine was not in the apartment (G5A) she ran back to the Tapas Bar to alert the rest of the group.
Dianne Webster remained at the table whilst all the others rushed to the apartment. Gerry McCann and Kate Healy were the first to return to their apartment, where Kate had left the patio doors completely open and the twins were fast asleep in their beds.

Gerald searched the apartment and stated that the window of the children's bedroom was open and the shutter raised. He checked the shutter before continuing to search outside.

All the men from the group began to search the immediate area.

David Payne ran from the McCann's apartment towards the Millennium area. Then he turned in the direction of the church. He searched the rocky areas of the beach/coast and checked the stands and boats. He then returned to the Ocean Club reception, passing the Millennium area. David then checked the area around the walls together with Matthew Oldfield.


Russell O'Brien was in the McCann's apartment for a moment only, rushing out to search the perimeter of the apartment. Then he went to look for Madeleine with Matthew Oldfield. They went in the direction of the beach. He searched the perimeter of the tennis courts and the paths leading to the beach. Russell searched the gardens and all of the surrounding area. He searched the eastern part of the beach, zigzagging back along the roads to the McCann's apartment. All the time more people were joining in the search and Russell knew the police had been contacted.
Afterwards he searched the adjacent apartments to the east of Kate and Gerry along the Rua da Ramalhete and more apartments to the east. On some occasions David Payne was with him.

When Matthew saw that Madeleine was not in the apartment, he went to the 24 hours reception to ask them to telephone the police. Matthew spent most of the night searching the neighbouring areas for Madeleine without success. Matthew searched the road between the apartment and the Creche. He searched between the apartment and the Millennium restaurant, also along the beach and finally a cemetery as well as the road leading back to the apartment. Part of this search was carried out with David Payne and Russell O'Brien and part was carried out alone. Matthew talked to an Indian insurance salesman and saw Nathan, the director of the beach concession.

Fiona Payne was the only woman from the group to help in the searches. Fiona searched the periphery of the complex ' one search, which she made alone. When she returned she spent the rest of the night with Kate.

After waiting at the restaurant table for five minutes, Dianne Webster went to the McCann's apartment where she entered the children's bedroom and saw Kate with the twins. Kate insisted on the fact that the window and shutters were open when she saw the children, Dianne went outside to see if she could raise the shutter from the outside and found it to be impossible. Dianne stayed in the McCann's apartment for about 5 minutes and then returned to the restaurant to fetch her bag, the McCann's camera and the baby monitor. She then immediately returned to the McCann's apartment. Gerry and Kate were in the apartment as well as Fiona. Fiona asked Dianne to stay with Lily and Scarlet to check that they were ok. Dianne returned to the Payne apartment and stayed there for the rest of the night.

Rachel Mampilly went to see her own daughter before going to meet Jane in her apartment. When they talked Jane told her that when she had gone to check on the children she saw Gerry and Jez talking together as well as a man carrying a child. Jane told Rachel that she had not said anything at the time because nobody knew that Madeleine had gone missing and she had not seen the child's face.


Summary

It is difficult to confirm where all the elements were in the minutes/ hours after the discovery that Madeleine was missing. It appears that most of the women remained within or near the apartments, Fiona Payne left and searched around the complex, before returning to the McCann's apartment where she stayed with Kate. Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate.

The men's movements, however, are more difficult to pinpoint.

Gerald was seen and spoken to by Neil Berry and Raj Malu. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on Neil's balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search.

Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by Emma Knights when she was on her way to the beach, the search area to which she was assigned by Lyndsey Johnson (child care director and search coordinator).

At about 01.00 Matthew was with John Hill (resort manager) when they knocked on Jeremy Wilkins's door to ask if he had seen anything.

At about 23.30 a white fair haired man aged about 30, one of the friends of the McCann group was seen by Valerie Kerr and her family when he asked them if they had seen Madeleine. They were near to the chapel. Valerie and Laura returned to their apartment, changed clothes and went to help with the search.


Conclusion

In the confusion following the disappearance of Madeleine it would be possible that one of the men or Fiona Payne 'escaped' to join in the searches again later.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic165.html