Author Topic: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.  (Read 26680 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Brietta

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #120 on: February 01, 2019, 11:29:35 AM »
I'm truly puzzled by the continued influence of sectarianism in Scotland and Nirthern Ireland. It existed in England when I was young but it just died out because, imo, so many of my generation lost interest in organised relgion.

In my case I thought that criticising Catholics as my mother did was against the principles of Christianity. How could anyone claim to be a Christian and not learn the lesson behind the story of the good Samaritan? I live by Christian principles but I don't need to believe in God or be a church member to do that.

I do not think sectarianism in Scotland has much if anything to do with God.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #121 on: February 01, 2019, 12:02:06 PM »
Independence.  IndependEnce. 
I am always somewhat amused be ardent Brexiteers who can’t understand Scotland’s desire to split from the Union.

As I am bewildered by people who want independance from UK, but to be ruled by faceless, unelected beaurocats who do not know or share our culture or us theirs...

We have a lot of history with UK. we share infrastructure, etc, we fought together in two world wars... AGAINST Eu leaders in France Germany.

6million dollar question!


"The scourge of Scotland has been the evil of sectarianism ... this post as some others from this poster smacks of it yet again."  How dare you accuse me of being a bigot. I have no interest  any religion that partakes in murder, slaughter of innocent babies, torture,mental. physical,sexual abuse in the name of a god.
  I have my own faith which does not partake in such atrocities. I do not need a crown headed figure or a pope to teach me about a god they cannot even obey his,  being a male god ofcourse, rules. ofcourse these rules were made up by man.. not invisible main sky.

If you want I will post links what has been happening in Ireland by the 'church' to women and children over the centuries. And the Kirk in Scotland, is well documented, however, nothing on you tube about that as this was dumped many years ago. It aint love and prosperity for sure!

I will continue to write and challenge the fairy stories I read on here on any subject. Please feel free to offer a debateable come  back and refrain from name calling or trying to rid me from this forum, and others from this forum to suit your agenda.
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline Erngath

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #122 on: February 01, 2019, 12:04:49 PM »
The scourge of Scotland has been the evil of sectarianism ... this post as some others from this poster smacks of it yet again.

Having re-read the post in question, not only does it smack of sectarianism but also racism.
Disgraceful.
Deal with the failings of others as gently as with your own.

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #123 on: February 01, 2019, 12:17:32 PM »
I do not think sectarianism in Scotland has much if anything to do with God.

You are absolutely correct it doesn't- never has!

It began with power/control as it always has been in many cultures- religion. pope vs crown.

 The pope lost in the UK, but kept a foothold in many EU coutries- the poorer ones with large starving families this being the 'love of Christ' and all that.  In Ireland they were a very superstitious lot. Well the poor uneducated that is, the rich wanted to buy their place in heaven via a church/pope. 
 
Sectarianism began with Irish families splitting up due to allegedly taking sides. Some wanted to work  in factories,feed their families and free themselves from the churches hold. Ireland was split in two. A type of civil war  called the troubles took hold. This can all be read in libraries.


As for me being a bgiot preferring one religion over another. I have no intention of  'fighting' for queen/king and country or any pope /mullah or anyone else who fancies themselves as better than anyone else!
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline G-Unit

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #124 on: February 01, 2019, 12:26:39 PM »
I do not think sectarianism in Scotland has much if anything to do with God.

Is it connected to religion?
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #125 on: February 01, 2019, 12:33:31 PM »
Is it connected to religion?

Yes. I have explained. 

Reading Brietta and Ergaths posts is like watching old videos of the muppets... those two men in the balcony...
 (&^&

Oh the name calling tut tut tut.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f6w2jK_1Bk
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline Sunny

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #126 on: February 01, 2019, 12:55:45 PM »
Is it connected to religion?

I've always understood that the sectarianism in Scotland is connected to Ireland and the troubles.   Don't the Celtic fans chant some IRA chants?
Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

Moderators and Editors take note!

Offline Brietta

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #127 on: February 01, 2019, 01:11:37 PM »
Is it connected to religion?

If you wish to taint your mind with making an attempt on plumbing the depths of what is known as "Scotland's Hidden Shame" (if memory serves me well we have a thread on 'sectarianism v the McCann family') you could do no better than reading through recent posts made on this thread and others.

You may have missed some of it because it is so insidious ... Ergath, myself and a few others perhaps got the full flavour of it.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #128 on: February 01, 2019, 01:34:30 PM »
If you wish to taint your mind with making an attempt on plumbing the depths of what is known as "Scotland's Hidden Shame" (if memory serves me well we have a thread on 'sectarianism v the McCann family') you could do no better than reading through recent posts made on this thread and others.

You may have missed some of it because it is so insidious ... Ergath, myself and a few others perhaps got the full flavour of it.

Does that mean you prefer not to answer my question?

Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #129 on: February 01, 2019, 01:56:15 PM »
I've always understood that the sectarianism in Scotland is connected to Ireland and the troubles.   Don't the Celtic fans chant some IRA chants?


Yes that is where it stems from. Irish Roman catholics and Irish non roman catholics. at war with each other. UK got involved as they are our near neighbour. Politics and religion- never a good mix as history has shown.  There is [ censored word ]ed on both sides of that particular issue. 

Brietta and Ergath are trying to change history and sweep it under a carpet by name calling.

I do no t take sides in this 'war' it is futile but then some poeple make a lot of money from it. The IRA has not gone away.

Sectarianism is alive and well! It has NOTHING to do with Jesus or 'God'
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline Erngath

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #130 on: February 01, 2019, 02:33:20 PM »

Yes that is where it stems from. Irish Roman catholics and Irish non roman catholics. at war with each other. UK got involved as they are our near neighbour. Politics and religion- never a good mix as history has shown.  There is [ censored word ]ed on both sides of that particular issue. 

Brietta and Ergath are trying to change history and sweep it under a carpet by name calling.

I do no t take sides in this 'war' it is futile but then some poeple make a lot of money from it. The IRA has not gone away.

Sectarianism is alive and well! It has NOTHING to do with Jesus or 'God'


I agree " Sectarianism is alive and well"
And you were the one who dragged sectarianism into the Independence discussion with your reference to 2nd and 3rd generation Irish voters.
I believe your implication was that "hatred of the English" would prompt these voters to seek independence.
Utter rubbish.

Years ago very few Catholics supported the idea of independence, being concerned that Catholics would once again be faced with bias and intolerance from the Protestant majority.
My siblings will never vote for Independence, and they are also the third generation of Irish immigrants.

Your post was insulting!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 02:39:48 PM by Erngath »
Deal with the failings of others as gently as with your own.

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #131 on: February 01, 2019, 02:42:49 PM »
As I am bewildered by people who want independance from UK, but to be ruled by faceless, unelected beaurocats who do not know or share our culture or us theirs...

We have a lot of history with UK. we share infrastructure, etc, we fought together in two world wars... AGAINST Eu leaders in France Germany.

6million dollar question!


"The scourge of Scotland has been the evil of sectarianism ... this post as some others from this poster smacks of it yet again."  How dare you accuse me of being a bigot. I have no interest  any religion that partakes in murder, slaughter of innocent babies, torture,mental. physical,sexual abuse in the name of a god.
  I have my own faith which does not partake in such atrocities. I do not need a crown headed figure or a pope to teach me about a god they cannot even obey his,  being a male god ofcourse, rules. ofcourse these rules were made up by man.. not invisible main sky.

If you want I will post links what has been happening in Ireland by the 'church' to women and children over the centuries. And the Kirk in Scotland, is well documented, however, nothing on you tube about that as this was dumped many years ago. It aint love and prosperity for sure!

I will continue to write and challenge the fairy stories I read on here on any subject. Please feel free to offer a debateable come  back and refrain from name calling or trying to rid me from this forum, and others from this forum to suit your agenda.
*%87
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Erngath

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #132 on: February 01, 2019, 02:51:59 PM »
I've always understood that the sectarianism in Scotland is connected to Ireland and the troubles.   Don't the Celtic fans chant some IRA chants?

Yes some Celtic fans do sing IRA songs and I do wish they wouldn't.
However in the sixties before the atrocities of the IRA there was a group called the Clancy Brothers who were very popular and sang these songs which are actually political, not sectarian.

Celtic Football club have always had Protestant players, managers and staff.
It is only recently that Rangers have loosened their sectarian policy of never signing any Catholic, either as players, managers or indeed staff.

 Can I just add that although Sectarianism exists, especially among football fans, there are an increasingly number of  interfaith services and meetings.





Deal with the failings of others as gently as with your own.

Offline Brietta

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #133 on: February 01, 2019, 03:57:17 PM »
Yes some Celtic fans do sing IRA songs and I do wish they wouldn't.
However in the sixties before the atrocities of the IRA there was a group called the Clancy Brothers who were very popular and sang these songs which are actually political, not sectarian.

Celtic Football club have always had Protestant players, managers and staff.
It is only recently that Rangers have loosened their sectarian policy of never signing any Catholic, either as players, managers or indeed staff.

 Can I just add that although Sectarianism exists, especially among football fans, there are an increasingly number of  interfaith services and meetings.

I'm told that Rangers knocked back the opportunity to sign Danny McGrain because of the Catholic sounding name. 

LOL big mistake on two counts if true ...
The man became a legend ... and was also a protestant.

Things have been taking place for many years regarding the efforts of the two West Coast football clubs (along with others) and things are in the main much more civilised than it ever was.
Without being complacent I think the football clubs and charities such as 'Nil by Mouth' have had a tremendous presence in helping helping change.  So it isn't all doom and gloom.

Nude Old Firm fans tackle bigotry
Sunday, 23 September 2007
Old Firm fans strip off About 100 naked Old Firm fans have joined together to pose for a photograph at Hampden Park.
Alistair Devine said the image would show how far Scottish football has come in tackling sectarian violence.

In 1980, the photographer captured a famous scene of riots at an Old Firm Game at Hampden, with police on horses trying to halt fighting on the pitch.

The Rangers and Celtic supporters, both male and female, posed with just their scarves to cover their modesty.

Mr Devine, who a year ago organised a similar project where he photographed 30 nude volunteers in a Glasgow bar, said he hoped the image would show the unity between the fans.

"The point of the picture is quite simple," he said. "It is to let bigots be bygones and to move forward as a nation in our view towards bigotry.

"Back in the 1980s our game here was absolutely rife with bigotry and dreadful violence.

"We have moved on a long way. If we had tried this 25 years ago we would never had got it."

Mr Devine said the fans who had turned up for the photo were very brave.

He added that efforts by Scotland's churches, government, football clubs and the campaign group Nil by Mouth had helped to tackle sectarian violence in football.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7009122.stm
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Erngath

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #134 on: February 01, 2019, 04:36:38 PM »
I'm told that Rangers knocked back the opportunity to sign Danny McGrain because of the Catholic sounding name. 

LOL big mistake on two counts if true ...
The man became a legend ... and was also a protestant.

Things have been taking place for many years regarding the efforts of the two West Coast football clubs (along with others) and things are in the main much more civilised than it ever was.
Without being complacent I think the football clubs and charities such as 'Nil by Mouth' have had a tremendous presence in helping helping change.  So it isn't all doom and gloom.

Nude Old Firm fans tackle bigotry
Sunday, 23 September 2007
Old Firm fans strip off About 100 naked Old Firm fans have joined together to pose for a photograph at Hampden Park.
Alistair Devine said the image would show how far Scottish football has come in tackling sectarian violence.

In 1980, the photographer captured a famous scene of riots at an Old Firm Game at Hampden, with police on horses trying to halt fighting on the pitch.

The Rangers and Celtic supporters, both male and female, posed with just their scarves to cover their modesty.

Mr Devine, who a year ago organised a similar project where he photographed 30 nude volunteers in a Glasgow bar, said he hoped the image would show the unity between the fans.

"The point of the picture is quite simple," he said. "It is to let bigots be bygones and to move forward as a nation in our view towards bigotry.

"Back in the 1980s our game here was absolutely rife with bigotry and dreadful violence.

"We have moved on a long way. If we had tried this 25 years ago we would never had got it."

Mr Devine said the fans who had turned up for the photo were very brave.

He added that efforts by Scotland's churches, government, football clubs and the campaign group Nil by Mouth had helped to tackle sectarian violence in football.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7009122.stm


And long may such iniatives continue to be successful.
Deal with the failings of others as gently as with your own.