Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 844706 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #930 on: July 14, 2015, 01:29:04 PM »
Pathfinder ... there are screeds of information and discussions out there about specialist dogs trained to search out an individual by scent.

A lot of it originates in America where I think bloodhounds are the animal of choice.  I believe Germany is another centre of excellence.

We only have them in Wales (see the link provided by Ferryman) ... and in 2007 the Portuguese had none.

No-one can state what it was that the Portuguese dogs followed ... but the chance of it being Madeleine's unique scent are so slim I believe it may be non-existent.

They found Madeleine's alive scent. Amaral brought the best dogs over from England to find out what happened to Madeleine McCann. SY are searching for a body. They are back to where Amaral was in 2007 looking for a body and Smithman. So all has gone quiet from SY while they plan their next crucial move. They're at the crossroads now.

Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Anna

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #931 on: July 14, 2015, 02:12:49 PM »
They did the best they could in the circumstances.  Their training was to find people lost outdoors if Madeleine had been outside (woke and wandered theory) there is every likelihood they would have found her.
Particularly when one considers the area of terrain they covered.

They were perfectly correct to improvise and hope and they put their all into finding Madeleine.

I think what you have illustrated in the link you posted Ferryman, is that dogs with particular 'bloodhound' skills are few and far between in Europe.
There are mountain rescue dogs in Scotland as well as police dogs ... yet a specialist team had to be imported from Wales.

Back in 2007 the Portuguese faced similar problems. 

Sometimes the issue with dogs finding nothing is that there is nothing there to be found.

I think you have all probably read about the initial dogs who were brought in, but just in case....

Processos Vol V


Pages 1335 – 1337

Witness Statement

Date: 2007-05-16

Carlos Manuel Carvalho Lacao

Occupation: GNR Officer


He has been a GNR officer since 1988. He holds the post of soldier and currently works in the Portimao Territorial Group, working within the forensics service.

On 4th May he was called at about 01.15 when he was asleep at home, requesting him to appear at the Lagos GNR post as a small girl had disappeared. After arriving at the GNR post with his colleagues Morais and two dogs (Numi and Kit), German Shepherd dogs, which made up the search team, they immediately left for P da L. They arrived at about 02.30.

When they arrived at the scene, they entered the McCann’s apartment by the front door, and entered the living room, where there were some PJ officers as well as the MCCann couple. The just talked to some colleagues from the PJ and asked for a piece of clothing that Madeleine had worn or used recently. They were given a pink/orange blanket that the child had been covered with in her bed.

They began searching with the dogs from the main entrance to the apartment, having given the blanket to his dog Numi to smell and begin to search.

The route initially taken was from the front entrance door to the passageway between Blocks 4 and 5, along the corridor and then along the passage that leads past the entrance to the small reception to the resort’s swimming pool. After that the whole of the area surrounding the resort was searched.

With regard to the indications transmitted by his dog Numi, he says that at the beginning he was only “a little interested”, he let the dog "get on with it" .

They finished the searches at about 07.00 AM.


His dog’s speciality is patrolling (Maintenance of Public Order) although the dog also has some training in “tracking”.


When they entered the apartment they did not speak to anyone, not wanting to get in the way of other GNR officers present. During the searches they only spoke to the sergeant, from the Lagos GNR post, with a GNR officer and with a security guard who was present, he does not remember what company he was from. The conversation was about whether they had found anything.

He remembers that during a brief rest period at about 04.00, Madeleine’s mother asked whether there was any news and whether the roads had been blocked off.

There were some unknown people helping in the searches, especially when they arrived at the resort. Their number decreased as it got later. Between 04.00 and 07.00 basically the only people searching were the witness, his colleague and another GNR officer.

During this night as well as the following night, when he repeated the searches from 23.00 to 08.00 he did not see anyone suspicious.

He did not see Robert Murat on either of the nights. He did not search inside the apartment, just the verandas and surrounding areas.


No more is said. Reads, ratifies, signs.

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post353.html#p353
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #932 on: July 14, 2015, 02:13:23 PM »
Pathfinder ... there are screeds of information and discussions out there about specialist dogs trained to search out an individual by scent.

A lot of it originates in America where I think bloodhounds are the animal of choice.  I believe Germany is another centre of excellence.

We only have them in Wales (see the link provided by Ferryman) ... and in 2007 the Portuguese had none.

No-one can state what it was that the Portuguese dogs followed ... but the chance of it being Madeleine's unique scent are so slim I believe it may be non-existent.

Two types of dogs were used, and it was search and rescue dogs who were given the towel and blanket to sniff at;

At 00.40, given the complexity of the situation that seemed to surround the disappearance, the GNR post commander requested reinforcements from two sniffer dog teams from the Portimao territorial group to help in the searches, considering the possibility that the girl could have left the apartment on foot and could be somewhere not very far from the OC resort.

At 01.00 after the group commander had been briefed about the situation, telephone contact was made with an official from the Queluz GNR school, with the aim of their releasing search and rescue dog teams, seeing as these are specially trained to find missing persons, which is not the case with the Portimao sniffer dogs, which are essentially patrol dogs.

At 02.00 they arrived at P da L and began searching with the Portimao sniffer dog teams, the terrain searches were extended until the morning with the dogs and officers on the scene, as well as the night guard and local people who volunteered to help in the searches that took place throughout the night.

At 08.00 three officers with 4 search and rescue dogs from Queluz arrived at the scene, these dogs immediately began to operate.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #933 on: July 14, 2015, 04:27:09 PM »
Two types of dogs were used, and it was search and rescue dogs who were given the towel and blanket to sniff at;

At 00.40, given the complexity of the situation that seemed to surround the disappearance, the GNR post commander requested reinforcements from two sniffer dog teams from the Portimao territorial group to help in the searches, considering the possibility that the girl could have left the apartment on foot and could be somewhere not very far from the OC resort.

At 01.00 after the group commander had been briefed about the situation, telephone contact was made with an official from the Queluz GNR school, with the aim of their releasing search and rescue dog teams, seeing as these are specially trained to find missing persons, which is not the case with the Portimao sniffer dogs, which are essentially patrol dogs.

At 02.00 they arrived at P da L and began searching with the Portimao sniffer dog teams, the terrain searches were extended until the morning with the dogs and officers on the scene, as well as the night guard and local people who volunteered to help in the searches that took place throughout the night.

At 08.00 three officers with 4 search and rescue dogs from Queluz arrived at the scene, these dogs immediately began to operate.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

Search and rescue dogs track the generic human scent, not the individual and unique one ...

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #934 on: July 14, 2015, 05:11:41 PM »
Search and rescue dogs track the generic human scent, not the individual and unique one ...

It is all in the training and the GNR dogs did their best but I doubt very much if they had been trained to track an individual.


**snip
Ever wonder what happens when police use a bloodhound to help find a missing person? Let’s find out.

When a bloodhound sniffs a scent article, such as a piece of clothing, air rushes through the dog’s nasal cavity. The scent of the person creates an “odor image” (a sort of smell photograph) in the dog’s brain.

The odor image is created from a variety of smells that a human cannot detect, including sweat, breath and skin. Although the world is full of smells, a bloodhound’s sense of smell is so powerful that it can use the odor image to pick out the exact scent trail it needs.

Once the bloodhound finds a scent trail matching the odor image, it can follow that specific smell despite all the other odors in the environment. Bloodhounds have been known to follow a scent trail for more than 130 miles!

If someone has ever walked past you wearing perfume, you’ve probably noticed that, within a few minutes, the smell disappears. A bloodhound’s sense of smell is so strong that it can still smell a trail up to 300 hours old! That would be like someone walking past you wearing perfume and still being able to smell it 13 days later!

The nose isn’t the only part of bloodhounds well-suited for tracking. Their signature wrinkly skin helps trap scents, too. Their long, droopy ears also act as scent sweepers, dragging the ground and sweeping scents toward their noses.

For nearly 200 years, bloodhounds have helped law enforcement personnel track missing persons and criminals. Although today’s police forces have exciting new technologies available, many believe bloodhounds are still the best option when it comes to tracking.

http://wonderopolis.org/wonder/what-makes-bloodhounds-good-detectives
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #935 on: July 14, 2015, 05:43:35 PM »
Nope!

with the aim of their releasing search and rescue dog teams, seeing as these are specially trained to find missing persons, which is not the case with the Portimao sniffer dogs, which are essentially patrol dogs.

Search and resuce dogs track the generic human scent, not the individual and unique one.

So who were the SAR dogs looking for then? its confusing.

Offline Carana

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #936 on: July 14, 2015, 05:54:07 PM »
A thread that I found interesting. K9Snoop does seem to be an accredited dog handler but seems objective to me.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-176441.html

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #937 on: July 14, 2015, 06:03:11 PM »
So who were the SAR dogs looking for then? its confusing.

The hope was that they would find Madeleine.

But they were of the wrong discipline to track an individual and unique scent.

Somewhere in the GNR report (I can't find it now) there was actually a discussion about whether their dogs would be able to assimilate Madeleine's scent from sniffing something belonging to Madeleine.

The mere fact of that conversation proves they had dogs of the wrong discipline for that search.

Dogs of the right discipline can't work any other way hence (English nomenclature) scent article method dog.  That is dogs that assimilate an individual and unique scent by sniffing an article.


Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #938 on: July 14, 2015, 06:08:29 PM »
The hope was that they would find Madeleine.

But they were of the wrong discipline to track an individual and unique scent.

Somewhere in the GNR report (I can't find it now) there was actually a discussion about whether their dogs would be able to assimilate Madeleine's scent from sniffing something belonging to Madeleine.

The mere fact of that conversation proves they had dogs of the wrong discipline for that search.

Dogs of the right discipline can't work any other way hence (English nomenclature) scent article method dog.  That is dogs that assimilate an individual and unique scent by sniffing an article.

Sorry, still  dont understand. If the dogs dont search for an individuals scent what exactly do they search for?

Offline Carana

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #939 on: July 14, 2015, 06:10:13 PM »
Sorry, still  dont understand. If the dogs dont search for an individuals scent what exactly do they search for?

Have a read of the link to a thread I posted just above, Mercury.

There are all kinds of dogs trained for different purposes.

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #940 on: July 14, 2015, 06:24:54 PM »
Have a read of the link to a thread I posted just above, Mercury.

There are all kinds of dogs trained for different purposes.
Cant you just tell me?

The dogs were given Madeleines belongings but Ferryman and others have said this means nothing at all

So, what were the dogs looking for? Ferryman says a generic human scent, that don't help much either, there were many humans around, if you see what I mean

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #941 on: July 14, 2015, 06:25:30 PM »
Sorry, still  dont understand. If the dogs dont search for an individuals scent what exactly do they search for?

Humans simultaneously emit two different scents: an areal scent that differentiates humans from species of animals, but does not differentiate one human as unique from another; a second scent, at, or just above, ground level that, like a signature or a full DNA profile, does differentiate one human as unique from another.

Dogs of the second type (that track the individual and unique scent) are rare and specialised, known in Britain as scent article method dogs.

In Britain there is only one police force that has them, based in Dyfed Wales.

Offline Anna

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #942 on: July 14, 2015, 06:28:35 PM »
Cant you just tell me?

The dogs were given Madeleines belongings but Ferryman and others have said this means nothing at all

So, what were the dogs looking for? Ferryman says a generic human scent, that don't help much either, there were many humans around, if you see what I mean


Tracking and Trailing Dogs
Tracking dogs are capable of locating any human scent and following the scent to a successful conclusion.
Trailing dogs are capable of locating a specific human scent (usually obtained from an article of clothing) and following the scent, ignoring other scents, to a successful conclusion.
Search Dogs UK are able to supply dogs trained in both disciplines to agencies concerned with locating persons in vast areas.
Target Agencies: Law Enforcement, SAR Agencies.
http://www.searchdogsuk.co.uk/other_disciplines.html
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #943 on: July 14, 2015, 06:32:35 PM »
thanks Fm and Anna but I havent got an answer to my question , what were the dogs  sent out to do?/find rather

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #944 on: July 14, 2015, 06:39:04 PM »
thanks Fm and Anna but I havent got an answer to my question , what were the dogs  sent out to do?/find rather

evidence ...they didn't find any