Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 844695 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1395 on: July 26, 2015, 08:16:39 PM »
Ahhh....

Good to be able to agree with you.


Did they actually exist?

Eek! Something we agree on. They should have, as there should have been contact info like with the day creches. I've read one witness statement saying they were contacted at night because their child cried, but can't remember who it was at the moment. Unless the PJ had them and didn't include them in the files I can't imagine Mark Warner keeping them for years until SY came along.

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1396 on: July 26, 2015, 08:22:55 PM »
You better write to all police forces worldwide who use cadaver dogs and let them know their alerts mean nothng, might save them some time energy and money

And please don't twist Grime's words to suit

if the alerts had any value they would be admissible as evidence ...grime has made it clear that the alerts themselves are of no value without corroboration. the dogs are used world wide to find evidence...if they never found any ...as in this case..they would not be used

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1397 on: July 26, 2015, 08:33:15 PM »
if the alerts had any value they would be admissible as evidence ...grime has made it clear that the alerts themselves are of no value without corroboration. the dogs are used world wide to find evidence...if they never found any ...as in this case..they would not be used

Eddie alerted in the Prout case and found nothing. I assume they brought him in because they suspected Prout. The police didn't wander off saying 'no body, no evidence, he didn't do it' though. They continued to gather circumstantial evidence and got a conviction with it. I have no way of knowing what they thought about Eddie's alert, but I imagine they bore it in mind.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1398 on: July 26, 2015, 08:41:53 PM »
Eddie alerted in the Prout case and found nothing. I assume they brought him in because they suspected Prout. The police didn't wander off saying 'no body, no evidence, he didn't do it' though. They continued to gather circumstantial evidence and got a conviction with it. I have no way of knowing what they thought about Eddie's alert, but I imagine they bore it in mind.

The dogs do not prove Maddie died in the apartment...that's what amaral said and what he said is wrong

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1399 on: July 26, 2015, 08:42:43 PM »
if the alerts had any value they would be admissible as evidence ...grime has made it clear that the alerts themselves are of no value without corroboration. the dogs are used world wide to find evidence...if they never found any ...as in this case..they would not be used
No, your problem is you have to decide why police use cadaver dogs and it's not just in case they find a body, anyone can do that

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1400 on: July 26, 2015, 08:45:57 PM »
if the alerts had any value they would be admissible as evidence ...grime has made it clear that the alerts themselves are of no value without corroboration. the dogs are used world wide to find evidence...if they never found any ...as in this case..they would not be used

Eddie's alert wasn't used in the Prout case but it showed them they were on the right path.


BREAKING: KSP has confirmed that the body of Laynee Wallace has been found in a well in Barren County.

The body is being taken to Louisville for an autopsy to ensure that it's Laynee.

The place Laynee Wallace was found was only a few miles from where she was living with her mother and Anthony Barbour.

Police say the property where the 2 year old was found belongs to the Barbour family.

This morning Anthony Barbour woke up in the hospital, but Tuesday night it will be his first night of many behind bars because he's facing multiple felonies.

Anthony Barbour is being charged with kidnapping and burglary but nothing relating to the death of Laynee Wallace one day after her body was found in a well in Barren County.

Police tell us that an autopsy has been completed and we could learn the results as early as Tuesday night. Once it's been released more charges could be added for Barbour.

We don't exactly know how Laynee's body ended up where it did, or how she died yet, but the woman who says Barbour held her against her will Monday afternoon says when they spoke, he told her his side of the story.

"She had fallen. She had an accident. He said she accidentally fell," said the woman.

http://www.wbko.com/home/headlines/Police-Still-Searching-For-Missing-Monroe-County-Two-Year-Old-304499851.html
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1401 on: July 26, 2015, 08:49:04 PM »
No, your problem is you have to decide why police use cadaver dogs and it's not just in case they find a body, anyone can do that

they are used to find evidence...bodies...body parts. Without finding evidence there alerts are of no use

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1402 on: July 26, 2015, 08:50:54 PM »
This is what grime said...

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent
 contamination. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this
 alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.


Not is alerting..but  is possibly alerting...

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1403 on: July 26, 2015, 08:58:28 PM »
This is what grime said...

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent
 contamination. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this
 alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.


Not is alerting..but  is possibly alerting...

He is a police officer and he knows the law. He is stating the legal position. When he uses the word 'possible' he isn't referring to the alert, (we all know Eddie alerted, after all, and Grime mentions 'this alert', so no doubts about that) he is referring to the reason for the alert; possibly cadaver scent contamination.
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Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1404 on: July 26, 2015, 09:01:57 PM »
they are used to find evidence...bodies...body parts. Without finding evidence there alerts are of no use

No...they alert to remnant scent as well, there may be no physical evidence for it, but its still evidence

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1405 on: July 26, 2015, 09:44:12 PM »
He is a police officer and he knows the law. He is stating the legal position. When he uses the word 'possible' he isn't referring to the alert, (we all know Eddie alerted, after all, and Grime mentions 'this alert', so no doubts about that) he is referring to the reason for the alert; possibly cadaver scent contamination.

That's right...the alert is possibly to cadaver scent contamination..... Therefore not definitely

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1406 on: July 26, 2015, 09:47:51 PM »
if the alerts had any value they would be admissible as evidence ...grime has made it clear that the alerts themselves are of no value without corroboration. the dogs are used world wide to find evidence...if they never found any ...as in this case..they would not be used

According to the former head of the Portuguese police laboratory there would have been no point in trying to progress the case to court because of a lack of evidence.

Had any evidence ever existed it was rendered  irretrievably corrupted and useless. 
The people who have been most let down by these circumstances are Madeleine McCann and her parents ... if any evidence of an intruder had existed mismanagement of the scene ensured it was lost forever.

The investigation knew there was not sufficient evidence to charge the Drs McCann with any crime.  Which is why they tried to railroad them by making them arguidos and putting them under intolerable pressure.

If Eddie and Keela were ever going to be of any use, it would have been in the early stages and not after a period when the apartment had been let out to other families ... and when the PJ had run out of ideas and other indicators of the guilt they attributed to Madeleine's parents.


Madeleine: Forensics expert says inquiry is 'complete waste' because of police blunders at apartment
By VANESSA ALLEN
Last updated at 09:49 18 December 2007

Defence lawyers would demolish scientific evidence in the case because of the wholesale contamination of forensics samples, the former head of the Portuguese police laboratory claimed.

Jose Manuel Anes said the seven-month police inquiry amounted to a complete waste of time and money.

"Huge amounts of money were spent but if, in the first hours, the due precautions for the preservation of the crime scene were not taken, all this hard work goes down the drain," he said.

"We can spend rivers of money which will all go down the drain if the crime scene is not properly isolated."

Portuguese police failed to seal off the McCann family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz immediately after the parents reported her abduction, meaning up to 50 people were free to tramp through the flat, destroying potentially vital evidence.

Mr Anes's damning analysis of the investigation has inspired "alarm" in Kate and Gerry McCann who still hope to learn what happened to their daughter on the night of May 3.

Their spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "It is alarming to hear that Mr Anes has this view.

"All we want, and have done throughout, is to ensure the operational police side of this has been done in an effective and efficient manner as possible."

Microscopic traces of blood were missed for three months, until British sniffer dogs detected them, and police failed to don protective forensics suits, meaning their fingerprints and bootmarks contaminated the crime scene.

In an interview for the book The McCanns' Guilt, written by a Portuguese journalist, Mr Anes said state-of-the-art tests were rendered useless if they were performed on contaminated samples.

The 62-year-old added: "As the technology for lab analysis becomes increasingly sensitive, the need not to contaminate the crime scene also increases.

"Any evidence left behind by an investigator, whatever it may be, can irreparably contaminate a sample gathered at the crime scene."

Mr Anes said detectives were too influenced by the McCanns' insistence their daughter was abducted.

He also said Portuguese forces should learn lessons from the British police, who train all officers to seal off crime scenes.

"I am utterly convinced that - unless some new, concrete evidence suddenly emerges - I fear the case will never reach trial," he added.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-503113/Madeleine-Forensics-expert-says-inquiry-complete-waste-police-blunders-apartment.html#ixzz3h1y5YZis

"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1407 on: July 26, 2015, 09:54:52 PM »
yawn

Offline sadie

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1408 on: July 26, 2015, 11:09:16 PM »
Eek! Something we agree on. They should have, as there should have been contact info like with the day creches. I've read one witness statement saying they were contacted at night because their child cried, but can't remember who it was at the moment. Unless the PJ had them and didn't include them in the files I can't imagine Mark Warner keeping them for years until SY came along.

And neither can I.

Such transiant things as the occasional evening at the creche could even have had all the details and signatures written on a notepad.   To be screwed up and thrown away once all the children had been collected, signed for and any charges had been paid.


Now please remind me.  Was the evening creche free?
If so, once all the children had been collected and signed for, it is quite likely that the list would have been scrapped IMO



But once again, we dont know.

Offline pegasus

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1409 on: July 27, 2015, 02:42:27 AM »
And neither can I.

Such transiant things as the occasional evening at the creche could even have had all the details and signatures written on a notepad.   To be screwed up and thrown away once all the children had been collected, signed for and any charges had been paid.
Now please remind me.  Was the evening creche free?
If so, once all the children had been collected and signed for, it is quite likely that the list would have been scrapped IMO
But once again, we dont know.
Yes the evening creche was free.
And professional in-apartment evening childcare was available for 15 euros an hour.
And the apartment was self-catering with full kitchen.
And the Tapas restaurant offered a takeaway service.
Four safe options IFLG and BP failed to mention, and any of them would have resulted in this dog thread never existing.