Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 845040 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3000 on: August 19, 2015, 02:40:11 PM »
Yes, I know, but it hasn't been established which decomposing body fluids from a living person Eddie may have been trained to ignore aside from blood.

There's simply no definitive answer to that either way, as no one seems to have asked Grime. Unless anyone finds a case in which Grime has testified in court that Eddie would not react to decomposing urine, semen, vaginal fluids, sputum, nasal secretions, etc., then I don't see why it should be assumed that alerts to such substances are unlikely.

Eddie was trained to recognise cadaver scent. Not all the constituents of this scent are scientifically identified, but because of the way a dog's nose works, they can identify each individual consituent. They alert when all the different compounds which make up cadaver scent are present. In other words, they don't alert to certain bits of the scent, only to all of it.


CADAVER SCENT

The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic
compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a
receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite
considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot as
yet be replicated in laboratory processes
. Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time
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Offline Anna

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3001 on: August 19, 2015, 02:53:46 PM »
Eddie was trained to recognise cadaver scent. Not all the constituents of this scent are scientifically identified, but because of the way a dog's nose works, they can identify each individual consituent. They alert when all the different compounds which make up cadaver scent are present. In other words, they don't alert to certain bits of the scent, only to all of it.


CADAVER SCENT

The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic
compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a
receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite
considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot as
yet be replicated in laboratory processes
. Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time
Do you have cite for that post, Please, G?

"Volatile organic compounds" None of us know what it is that the dogs alert too in a cadaver scent.
Where does it say that they can not alert to part of the makeup of a Cadaver scent.

The scent can not be replicated in a laboratory, therefore it is impossible to know what the scent consists of, or indeed which parts of a cadaver scent, the dogs recognise and alert too.

Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time

“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3002 on: August 19, 2015, 02:57:46 PM »
Do you have cite for that post, Please, G?

"Volatile organic compounds" None of us know what it is that the dogs alert too in a cadaver scent.
Where does it say that they can not alert to part of the makeup of a Cadaver scent.

The scent can not be replicated in a laboratory, therefore it is impossible to know what the scent consists of, or indeed which parts of a cadaver scent, the dogs recognise and alert too.

Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time


???

Offline Anna

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3003 on: August 19, 2015, 03:08:07 PM »

???

Ah! Now, I am sure that you will understand this, Stephen.

The smell of a decomposing body is made up of all sorts of interesting compounds, but amines and sulfurous molecules make up the stinkier end of the spectrum. Most of those amines come from breakdown of the proteins in the corpse, and two of them have such fetid odours that they have been named putrescine - after the process of putrefaction - and cadaverine, after the Latin-derived word for a corpse: cadaver.

Putrescine and cadaverine are chemically very similar: they are both diamines. Both have short hydrocarbon chains with a primary amine group on either end. The difference is that putrescine has four carbon atoms in the chain between the two amines (its systematic name is butane-1,4-diamine), whereas there are five in cadaverine - or pentane-1,5-diamine.

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/podcast/CIIEcompounds/transcripts/putrescine.asp
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3004 on: August 19, 2015, 03:19:06 PM »
Ah! Now, I am sure that you will understand this, Stephen.

The smell of a decomposing body is made up of all sorts of interesting compounds, but amines and sulfurous molecules make up the stinkier end of the spectrum. Most of those amines come from breakdown of the proteins in the corpse, and two of them have such fetid odours that they have been named putrescine - after the process of putrefaction - and cadaverine, after the Latin-derived word for a corpse: cadaver.

Putrescine and cadaverine are chemically very similar: they are both diamines. Both have short hydrocarbon chains with a primary amine group on either end. The difference is that putrescine has four carbon atoms in the chain between the two amines (its systematic name is butane-1,4-diamine), whereas there are five in cadaverine - or pentane-1,5-diamine.

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/podcast/CIIEcompounds/transcripts/putrescine.asp

I do know know already Anna.

Trust me on that.

There are many compounds which are present from decomposition and the result largely of hydrolysis of 'proteins' and subsequent  decarboxylation of the among no acids produced

My question referred to the mentionng of Urine.

I will be more specific next time when I raise a question  mark.


Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3005 on: August 19, 2015, 03:25:05 PM »
I do know know already Anna.

Trust me on that.

There are many compounds which are present from decomposition and the result largely of hydrolysis of 'proteins' and subsequent  decarboxylation of the among no acids produced

My question referred to the mentionng of Urine.

I will be more specific next time when I raise a question  mark.

Perhaps you mean to say "amino acids"?

  8(0(*
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 03:36:26 PM by Anna »

Offline Anna

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3006 on: August 19, 2015, 03:27:34 PM »
I do know know already Anna.

Trust me on that.

There are many compounds which are present from decomposition and the result largely of hydrolysis of 'proteins' and subsequent  decarboxylation of the among no acids produced

My question referred to the mentionng of Urine.

I will be more specific next time when I raise a question  mark.

OK, Thanks Stephen.
Did I mention urine in that post?  or did You answer the wrong post.........I do it all the time.

“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3007 on: August 19, 2015, 03:41:21 PM »
I do know know already Anna.

Trust me on that.

There are many compounds which are present from decomposition and the result largely of hydrolysis of 'proteins' and subsequent  decarboxylation of the among no acids produced

My question referred to the mentionng of Urine.

I will be more specific next time when I raise a question  mark.

Introduction

The decay process of vertebrates begins rapidly after death (i.e. four minutes after death) [1] and leads to the release of postmortem compounds in the ecosystem [2]–[3]. These cadaveric compounds, mainly volatile organic compounds (i.e. VOCs), are by- or end-products of the decay process [2], [4]. They come from the catabolism of the four major categories of biological macromolecules in living organisms: proteins, nucleic acid, lipids and carbohydrates [2]–[3]. The principal decay pathways and the metabolic origin of the main vertebrate postmortem volatiles were reviewed by Dent and colleagues [5], Boumba and colleagues [6] and recently by Paczkoski and Schütz [4]. However, the metabolic origin of many cadaveric compounds is still unknown [4], [7]. Only a few research groups have studied the postmortem VOCs emanating from human remains [8]–[13] and animal carcasses (pig [7], [14]–[15], mouse [16], rabbit [17]). Nevertheless, the majority of these studies is focused on burial decomposition or in closed environments (“body bag”) and limits the access to the corpse for the necrofauna, mainly insects [7]–[11]. The available information concerning postmortem chemistry of above-ground decomposition is rather limited. Numerous applications would however benefit from a better understanding of the postmortem volatiles emitted during the decay process.

(...)

In conclusion, this study provides the first documentation of the use of GCxGC-TOFMS to analyze pig decaying volatile compounds. The use of comprehensive GC could improve the characterization of the smell of death in terms of volatile constitution, rather than conventional GC. Indeed, the complexity of postmortem volatile samples requires more complex analytical methods [25]. Concerning data analysis, it would be interesting to include chemometrics analysis in future work. Nevertheless, the solvent extraction of the volatile organic compounds from the sorbent cartridges as well as the storage of the liquid fraction prior analyses is not adequate for the most volatile polar compounds, compared to the use of thermal desorption techniques, which is currently under investigation. However, our results demonstrated that bi-dimensional gas chromatography coupled with time-of-flight mass spectrometry is a powerful tool to analyze the volatile cadaveric emissions.

Source
Enhanced Characterization of the Smell of Death by Comprehensive Two-Dimensional Gas Chromatography-Time-of-Flight Mass Spectrometry (GCxGC-TOFMS)

    Jessica Dekeirsschieter,
    Pierre-Hugues Stefanuto,
    Catherine Brasseur,
    Eric Haubruge,
    Jean-François Focant

PLOS

    Published: June 18, 2012

    DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0039005


http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0039005

?

« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 03:59:35 PM by Carana »

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3008 on: August 19, 2015, 03:44:30 PM »
OK, Thanks Stephen.
Did I mention urine in that post?  or did You answer the wrong post.........I do it all the time.

Quite possibly Anna.

I don't have the time to read them all through.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3009 on: August 19, 2015, 04:25:16 PM »
http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3010 on: August 19, 2015, 04:30:24 PM »
http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

The reference is to dogs which have been trained only on material from human sources ... Eddie was not one of those.

It is worth bearing in mind that no-one ... ie scientist or handler ... knows exactly what VOC or combination thereof the dog is alerting to.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Anna

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3011 on: August 19, 2015, 04:38:55 PM »
http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

We are not discussing the training of any other dog, Pathfinder.
We are discussing Eddie and this is what is said about him, in regards to searches.


Search Asset Profile

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Anna

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3012 on: August 19, 2015, 04:46:44 PM »
The reference is to dogs which have been trained only on material from human sources ... Eddie was not one of those.

It is worth bearing in mind that no-one ... ie scientist or handler ... knows exactly what VOC or combination thereof the dog is alerting to.

Absolutely, Brietta. For all we know it could be that something resembling  part of cadaver scent residue that the dog alerted too, a false alert or indeed a cadaver.
We will never know for sure what triggered the alert.
 
Something that has part of the makeup of cadaverine or putriscine and was a common denominator would be a fair possibility, though.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3013 on: August 19, 2015, 04:48:22 PM »
Suggestion to the Forum owner - contact this young lady to take part in this discussion, at least she should know what she's talking about, and she can be contacted via her twitter account:

https://www.hud.ac.uk/news/2014/august/forensicsresearchtomakecadaverdogsmoreefficient.php

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3014 on: August 19, 2015, 05:01:06 PM »
Do you have cite for that post, Please, G?

"Volatile organic compounds" None of us know what it is that the dogs alert too in a cadaver scent.
Where does it say that they can not alert to part of the makeup of a Cadaver scent.

The scent can not be replicated in a laboratory, therefore it is impossible to know what the scent consists of, or indeed which parts of a cadaver scent, the dogs recognise and alert too.

Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time

Here you are Anna, sorry!

I think the post says the dog will alert to the scent of a cadaver. If only parts of the scent are present, therefore, that wouldn't be the scent of a cadaver, would it? No alert.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
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Result = happy posting.
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Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
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