Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 844695 times)

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Offline pegasus

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3900 on: August 25, 2015, 01:05:09 PM »
Don't know... when was the car manufactured?

At some point a proximity card would need to be handled, wouldn't it?
It was first rented out new in about Mar 2007 IIRC so probably a 2007 model.


Online misty

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3901 on: August 25, 2015, 01:10:05 PM »
Don't know... when was the car manufactured?

At some point a proximity card would need to be handled, wouldn't it?

That has always been my argument, Carana. Whoever touched the key fob also touched the door handle & the steering wheel - yet there was no cross-contamination according to Eddie.

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3902 on: August 25, 2015, 01:22:11 PM »
I keep hoping that some of you will accept official documents, realise that Amaral was barking up the wrong tree ... and be big enough not only to throw in the towel, but to publically apologise



Would be good if some of you who were able, would make the effort ....  and like Brenda Ryan put right some of the harm that you have done.


A very strong and caring woman is Brenda Ryan.  It cant have been easy switching sides when she realised her mistakes, but she did.  Then she went out of her way to try and make amends by publishing her blog supporting Madeleine and The Mccanns. 

Can anyone remember the name of her blog?   It was very sensitive and well thought out, I would like to reread it

Blinkered – My god I was blindfolded
I know there is a lot of tweets from people going on about what happened pre-arguido days and it seems that they are  living back in 2007 before the Attorney General said the McCanns along with Robert Murat did NOT commit any crimes and they were released from their arguido days.
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/08/29/blinkered-my-god-i-was-blindfolded/
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3903 on: August 25, 2015, 01:43:19 PM »
It would seem that under Rebelo the only individuals being seriously investigated were the parents and their friends.

Under Rebelo, the final PJ report was written, which clearly states the McCanns are innocent.

Offline faithlilly

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3904 on: August 25, 2015, 02:01:19 PM »
No I don't disagree - Amaral had taken the investigation down a blind alley to the exclusion of everything else and Rebelo had no choice but to re-examine the witnesses and arguidos.  He was being thorough, but despite his thoroughness he found nothing to suggest the parents dunnit.  Oh dear.

Being thorough ? He didn't question Murat or anyone connected to him even though he was also an arguido, so not especially thorough, and the reconstitution was his idea not Amaral's. It seems he also thought the timeline didn't work.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3905 on: August 25, 2015, 02:08:40 PM »
Well, having passed the buck from posters on to scientific studies, reports and Mr Grime himself, perhaps you could point out where those expert works have addressed themselves specifically to points made about this case rather than simply applied in a cherry-picked disparate way by posters?

Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

How do the Clever Hans / handler cuing studies explain that?

Does Mr Grime in his report,  put it down to Eddie not being in "work-mode" at the time?

Did the dog "unlearn" certain behaviours to suit those occasions when an alert to a multitude of contaminant triggers would make no sense to posters?

Did handler cuing influence the alert to a boys t-shirt or does the cherry picking choose another convenient  scientific study because handler expectation doesn`t cover that one?

Where does MG or any expert state that an alert by Eddie to a key fob rules out any possibility that there was any other cadaver contaminant source ever present in the hire car ?

A source can be found to quote away any point and sounds impressive but when applied to a whole case it can fall apart.

It can work for propaganda purposes, though.

If you are unwilling to take what Mr Grime says about Eddie's alert in the Renault I am very sorry, but nothing anyone on this forum or elsewhere has to say is going to overcome the level of prejudice and denial you are suffering from so forgive me for stating the obvious yet again.

Mr Grime just cannot make it any clearer that Eddie did not alert to cadaver odour in the Renault

Do you really think Mr Grime and the PJ were too stupid to verify what Eddie was or was not alerting to by ensuring him access to the car once Keela had detected blood to ensure it was checked out and either ruled in or eliminated for cadaver scent.

In fact when Eddie was introduced to parking level 3 and had the choice to alert either to the car or to the key fob ... what did he choose?
Unless you choose to disregard Mr Grime's statement ... Eddie alerted to the key fob ... Eddie did not alert to the Renault ... therefore Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent, Madeleine McCann's or anyone else's.



**Snip
(Eddie)
15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry
and Kate McCann.


(Keela)
Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory and another canine inspection that began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having been verified the following result:

03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
compartment of the car;
04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the Budget rental company.

In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car park.
At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

(Eddie)
At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
... the present document has been duly signed:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3906 on: August 25, 2015, 02:13:19 PM »
On 6 August 2007, at 15h17, a canine inspection was performed in the following motor cars, this
being done on level -4 of the above-mentioned underground car park:
[list of cars: Opel Corsa; Fiat Punto; Peugeot 205; Renault Scenic; Skodia Fabia; VW Transporter;
Nissan Patrol; VW Passat; Audi A4; Renault Kangoo.]

Thus, at the hour indicated the work began, with the dog Eddy, that detects cadaver odour,
examining the whole level of the underground car park where the vehicles were parked, it having
been verified the following result:

15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry
and Kate McCann.

Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert
examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory
and another canine inspection that
began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having
been verified the following result:

03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
compartment of the car;

04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,
which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the
Budget rental company.

In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the
map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car
and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car
park.

At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.

At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

08-Processo Volume 8 pages 2186 to 2188
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

Done it again Carana, great minds etc.   However I don't think even constant repetition of the facts are ever going to be recognised ... no fun in that.
[/list]
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 02:41:36 PM by Brietta »
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3907 on: August 25, 2015, 02:24:05 PM »
If you are unwilling to take what Mr Grime says about Eddie's alert in the Renault I am very sorry, but nothing anyone on this forum or elsewhere has to say is going to overcome the level of prejudice and denial you are suffering from so forgive me for stating the obvious yet again.

Mr Grime just cannot make it any clearer that Eddie did not alert to cadaver odour in the Renault

Do you really think Mr Grime and the PJ were too stupid to verify what Eddie was or was not alerting to by ensuring him access to the car once Keela had detected blood to ensure it was checked out and either ruled in or eliminated for cadaver scent.

In fact when Eddie was introduced to parking level 3 and had the choice to alert either to the car or to the key fob ... what did he choose?
Unless you choose to disregard Mr Grime's statement ... Eddie alerted to the key fob ... Eddie did not alert to the Renault ... therefore Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent, Madeleine McCann's or anyone else's.



**Snip
(Eddie)
15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry
and Kate McCann.


(Keela)
Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory and another canine inspection that began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having been verified the following result:

03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
compartment of the car;
04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the Budget rental company.

In order to confirm that the dog (EDDIE) had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car park.
At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

(Eddie)
At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
... the present document has been duly signed:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

Eddie marked the car key.  Nothing else. 

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3908 on: August 25, 2015, 02:30:13 PM »
Thank you Carana

A number of posters make the point that the forensics were "Inconclusive" as though this adds some weight to their argument about the forensic results.

It may be interesting to debate what members here think "Inconclusive" actually means.

To kick this off, here is Vocabulary.com definition
____________________

If something's inconclusive, that means it doesn't lead to a conclusion or a resolution. Inconclusive often describes scientific results. If your data about a flu outbreak is inconclusive, then your results don't prove anything.

A good way to remember the meaning of inconclusive is to look at the root word conclusive, which means "definitive, decisive, and convincing." When you add in- — which means "not" — to the front of conclusive, you get a word that means "not definitive." When something's inconclusive, it doesn't resolve your questions and leaves room for debate. If you're a detective, the last thing you want to hear is that your evidence is inconclusive.
___________

http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/inconclusive


Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3909 on: August 25, 2015, 02:33:37 PM »
We do indeed but you failed to address to my question. If it were that cut and dried why take another nine months to lift the arguido status.
As for my attention span it is longer than your ability to make a post without a sneer  8(0(*

Then it must be your comprehension which is at fault if your attention span is fine.

In my opinion and that of many at the time ... the initial error was the fact that the Drs McCann had been constituted arguidos in haste perhaps with the forthcoming deadline for the necessity to have proof to enable such a step to be taken was looming.


Quote from Carana
If you meant why the McCanns continued to be arguidos (as did Murat, whom you forgot), it's because in the Portuguese system arguido status remains in place until the end of the investigative phase. If charges are brought at the end of that time, those charged retain arguido status for the next phases. It becomes extinct for those not charged or if the case is shelved.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6311.msg265965#msg265965
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 02:43:24 PM by Brietta »
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3910 on: August 25, 2015, 02:35:21 PM »
Thank you Carana

A number of posters make the point that the forensics were "Inconclusive" as though this adds some weight to their argument about the forensic results.

It may be interesting to debate what members here think "Inconclusive" actually means.

To kick this off, here is Vocabulary.com definition
____________________

If something's inconclusive, that means it doesn't lead to a conclusion or a resolution. Inconclusive often describes scientific results. If your data about a flu outbreak is inconclusive, then your results don't prove anything.

A good way to remember the meaning of inconclusive is to look at the root word conclusive, which means "definitive, decisive, and convincing." When you add in- — which means "not" — to the front of conclusive, you get a word that means "not definitive." When something's inconclusive, it doesn't resolve your questions and leaves room for debate. If you're a detective, the last thing you want to hear is that your evidence is inconclusive.
___________

http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/inconclusive

So it doesn't mean the McCanns are guilty, then?

I'm devastated .....

Offline faithlilly

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3911 on: August 25, 2015, 02:41:14 PM »
Thank you Carana

A number of posters make the point that the forensics were "Inconclusive" as though this adds some weight to their argument about the forensic results.

It may be interesting to debate what members here think "Inconclusive" actually means.

To kick this off, here is Vocabulary.com definition
____________________

If something's inconclusive, that means it doesn't lead to a conclusion or a resolution. Inconclusive often describes scientific results. If your data about a flu outbreak is inconclusive, then your results don't prove anything.

A good way to remember the meaning of inconclusive is to look at the root word conclusive, which means "definitive, decisive, and convincing." When you add in- — which means "not" — to the front of conclusive, you get a word that means "not definitive." When something's inconclusive, it doesn't resolve your questions and leaves room for debate. If you're a detective, the last thing you want to hear is that your evidence is inconclusive.
___________

http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/inconclusive

And as a detective you most certainly don't want to hear that the results of the forensics tests were CONCLUSIVE and your suspect was categorically ruled out of any criminality.

But that didn't happen here, did it.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3912 on: August 25, 2015, 02:43:20 PM »
And as a detective you most certainly don't want to hear that the results of the forensics tests were CONCLUSIVE and your suspect was categorically ruled out of any criminality.

But that didn't happen here, did it.

Has it happened EVER?

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3913 on: August 25, 2015, 02:46:04 PM »
Being thorough ? He didn't question Murat or anyone connected to him even though he was also an arguido, so not especially thorough, and the reconstitution was his idea not Amaral's. It seems he also thought the timeline didn't work.
OK, you've convinced me -  Rebelo wasn't thorough, he was slip-shod and conducted an inadequate investigation, same as his predecessor.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3914 on: August 25, 2015, 02:48:46 PM »
And as a detective you most certainly don't want to hear that the results of the forensics tests were CONCLUSIVE and your suspect was categorically ruled out of any criminality.

But that didn't happen here, did it.
How could forensics have proved the McCanns DIDN'T chuck their daughter's body is a bin as you believe?