Controlling the 5 adults in WHF. Who was in the best position ?

[adam]

Jeremy's supporters often claim he couldn't have controlled the occupants at WHF. But wouldn't the same be true for Sheila ?

So who was in the best position to control the occupants and carry out a successful massacre ?

Jeremy

He would have been fully clothed. Probably in several layers, with gloves and a balaclava to protect himself.

He was competent with guns.

He also had the element of surprise as everyone would be asleep. June & the twins being shot in bed while Neville escaped seconds earlier. Sheila had to be out of bed, so was either carried, lead of retreated to the far corner of the main bedroom. So not really much to control if everything goes smoothly.

If things got violent, he was a fit young man who could control two 6 year olds and a two women. Even if they woke. Neville was more problematic and the judge said he 'put up a tremendous fight for life'. Luckily for a fully clothed and hyped up Jeremy,  Neville was badly injured and eventually brutally beaten.

Sheila

She did not have any protective clothing. So more likely to get head, body or hand injuries.

She did not have the element of surprise. Neville being up and awake, and having the option of getting June for assistance or restraining Sheila himself.  He even had time to spend several minutes phoning Jeremy and the police.

She had limited/no experience with guns. Holding a not very powerful rifle. She would have to accurately hit a moving Neville & a moving June, Nicholas & Daniel if they woke from the noise.

She was very slight and would not stand a chance in a struggle with a fit Neville or Neville/June. She may also struggle with an injured Neville or Neville/June and end up with injuries or losing control of the rifle.

                          ______________________________


It is common knowledge that the crime was committed by either Sheila or Jeremy. It seems much more believable that Jeremy would be able to control the five occupants at WHF.

[puglove]

If Ralph was fully awake and not seriously injured (and he MUST have been if he was able to use the phone, and also not to smear it with blood) then yes, Adam, I totally agree with you.

[Holly Goodhead]

Jeremy's supporters often claim he couldn't have controlled the occupants at WHF. But wouldn't the same be true for Sheila ?

So who was in the best position to control the occupants and carry out a successful massacre ?

Jeremy

He would have been fully clothed. Probably in several layers, with gloves and a balaclava to protect himself.

He was competent with guns.

He also had the element of surprise as everyone would be asleep. June & the twins being shot in bed while Neville escaped seconds earlier. Sheila had to be out of bed, so was either carried, lead of retreated to the far corner of the main bedroom. So not really much to control if everything goes smoothly.

If things got violent, he was a fit young man who could control two 6 year olds and a two women. Even if they woke. Neville was more problematic and the judge said he 'put up a tremendous fight for life'. Luckily for a fully clothed and hyped up Jeremy,  Neville was badly injured and eventually brutally beaten.

Sheila

She did not have any protective clothing. So more likely to get head, body or hand injuries.

She did not have the element of surprise. Neville being up and awake, and having the option of getting June for assistance or restraining Sheila himself.  He even had time to spend several minutes phoning Jeremy and the police.

She had limited/no experience with guns. Holding a not very powerful rifle. She would have to accurately hit a moving Neville & a moving June, Nicholas & Daniel if they woke from the noise.

She was very slight and would not stand a chance in a struggle with a fit Neville or Neville/June. She may also struggle with an injured Neville or Neville/June and end up with injuries or losing control of the rifle.

                          ______________________________


It is common knowledge that the crime was committed by either Sheila or Jeremy. It seems much more believable that Jeremy would be able to control the five occupants at WHF.

Statistically/mathematically no.  JB 3 against 1.  SC 2 against 1.  I think we can safely rule out the twins having any awareness of the unfolding horror as thankfully they appear to have been asleep and oblivious.

ANYONE with a loaded firearm will have the upper hand against others that is how the likes of Michael Ryan, Thomas Hamilton, Derrick Bird, Anders Breivik and all the mass shootings by lone gunmen we hear about in N.America happen.  The gunmen usually commit suicide afterwards too.  Often these men seem to be angry  over some real or perceived injustice and socially isolated.  In the case of AB I don't think he attempted suicide afterwards but the motivation for his shooting spree was political.

The difficulty with the JB dunnit scenario is not the 3 against 1 but how he managed to get SC to compliantly lay down while he shot her twice?  If she wasn't compliant then where are the marks on her body suggesting she resisted?  None of the above lone gunmen managed to stage a suicide.  They just randomly fired off shots shooting anyone in their path and in many cases took their own life.  In the case of Michael Ryan he shot his mother who it was said he was very close to.

Imo SC was very angry having just recently been reunited with her birth mother.  I think rightly or wrongly she attributed her problems to the fact she had been adopted.  Perhaps if SC was the perp and murdered her adoptive parents, twins sons and then committed suicide it was in fact anger directed against her birth mother rather than her adoptive parents?  Seems strange to me that SC was 28 yoa at her time of death.  Just weeks before the tragedy she was reunited with her birth mother.  She could have met with her birth mother from any age from 18 yoa onwards.  Why did she choose that time?  And why only weeks afterwards did we have the WHF tragedy?  I think the judge might have overlooked that curious coincidence 

http://poundpuplegacy.org/node/19847

The fact many perceive SC as being incapable is imo to some degree based on conscious or sub-conscious gender stereo-typing.

Also the fact most don't have any experience and/or knowledge about adoption doesn't mean to say it didn't play a pivotal role in the WHF tragedy.

[Holly Goodhead]

Adam I have taken this extract from CC's book.  As you will see according to this account SC was more than capable of asserting herself and defending her corner when the need arose.  I just cant buy into the idea that SC would lie down and allow JB to shoot her? 

"When she was about 16 and at boarding school, she would often 'bunk' out of dormitory after lights out and go into Norwich with some of her classmates.  On one occasion, when she was on her own, she decided to save her bus fare and hitch a lift back to school some miles out of town.  It wasn't long before she was picked up by a man who, during the drive, started to tell her how she shouldn't be out alone after dark and so on.  Half-way back to the school he turned down a side road, stopped the car and proved to be the very kind of man he had warned her about.  She, to her credit, kicked up a good fight and called him a dirty old man who ought to know better than to try it on with a girl young enough to be his daughter.  On this occasion she was extremely lucky.  The man restarted his car and drove the rest of the way back.  What really amazed me was that she was more angry than frightened by this incident.  It never occurred to her that she might well have come unstuck".

Wonder what happened to her classmates and why she was on her own?  &%+((£

[Myster]

ANYONE with a loaded firearm will have the upper hand against others that is how the likes of Michael Ryan, Thomas Hamilton, Derrick Bird, Anders Breivik and all the mass shootings by lone gunmen we hear about in N.America happen.  The gunmen usually commit suicide afterwards too.  Often these men seem to be angry  over some real or perceived injustice and socially isolated.  In the case of AB I don't think he attempted suicide afterwards but the motivation for his shooting spree was political.

The difficulty with the JB dunnit scenario is not the 3 against 1 but how he managed to get SC to compliantly lay down while he shot her twice?  If she wasn't compliant then where are the marks on her body suggesting she resisted?  None of the above lone gunmen managed to stage a suicide.  They just randomly fired off shots shooting anyone in their path and in many cases took their own life.  In the case of Michael Ryan he shot his mother who it was said he was very close to.

All these men held firearms certificates, owned weapons, were familiar with handling them and therefore confident in their loading and use... Sheila Caffell didn't and wasn't.

Not difficult at all!  The effects of SC's haloperidol usage have been covered before so little need to repeat it again, but... tired, drowsy, dopey therefore easily manipulated, especially with having a loaded rifle pointed at her. She might even have fainted with the shock of seeing her dead mother, thus providing no resistance at all... look at her closed eyelids and passive facial expression.

[Andrea]

Holly, Sheila meeting her natural mother was a positive experience for her. Colin said the meeting went better than expected and Sheila was happy about the whole thing. Do you sometimes forget JB was adopted? All you apply to Sheila could also apply to JB. But, imo, I don't think adoption had anything to do with the WHF massacre, it was purely down to greed.

[Holly Goodhead]

All these men held firearms certificates, owned weapons, were familiar with handling them and therefore confident in their loading and use... Sheila Caffell didn't and wasn't.

Not difficult at all!  The effects of SC's haloperidol usage have been covered before so little need to repeat it again, but... tired, drowsy, dopey therefore easily manipulated, especially with having a loaded rifle pointed at her. She might even have fainted with the shock of seeing her dead mother, thus providing no resistance at all... look at her closed eyelids and passive facial expression.

There are some crucial differences:

Those mentioned above                                          Perp at WHF:  JB or SC

Many shots fired from distance                                     Most shots fired within inches to max a couple of feet

None were brought up with firearms                             Both brought up with firearms and familiar with everyday
                                                                                 use

All owned firearms                                                      Neither owned firearms

No access to other firearms other than those                Both had access to firearms at WHF
owned

SC wasn't too tired, dopey and drowsy to manicure and polish her nails, shape her eyebrows, shave her legs (or whatever hair removal method she used) and wash and style her hair (evidence soc photos).  Neither was she too tired, dopey and drowsy to take the call from PB at circa 10pm; why not let June or NB pick up?  After I left home and visited my parents I would never pick up the call unless I was specifically expecting one as I assumed it would be for my parents.  Was SC expecting a call?

23. Barbara Wilson, the farm secretary telephoned the farmhouse at 9.30 p.m. and spoke to Nevill Bamber. He was not cheerful and Mrs Wilson thought she had interrupted an argument. In evidence she described Nevill as abrupt, very impatient and very short. Pamela Boutflour, June Bamber's sister also telephoned the house that evening at about 10 p.m. She spoke first with Sheila Caffell who was quiet and then to her sister. Mrs Boutflour noted nothing unusual in her sister's mood or in their conversation

[APRIL]

Holly, Sheila meeting her natural mother was a positive experience for her. Colin said the meeting went better than expected and Sheila was happy about the whole thing. Do you sometimes forget JB was adopted? All you apply to Sheila could also apply to JB. But, imo, I don't think adoption had anything to do with the WHF massacre, it was purely down to greed.

Andrea, if it was, there must have been a hell of a lot of churning emotions going on for Sheila when she had to return to the less positive relationship she had with June. It's perfectly possible that any ongoing relationship with Christine wouldn't have been entirely successful but it never had the chance to get beyond a honeymoon period. I couldn't possibly forget that Jeremy was also adopted but it's been my experience that males are more detached than females when it comes to meeting biological parents. MAYBE it has to do with that boys bond better with their mothers -biological OR adopted- than do girls.

[Myster]

There are some crucial differences:

Those mentioned above                                          Perp at WHF:  JB or SC

Many shots fired from distance                                     Most shots fired within inches to max a couple of feet

None were brought up with firearms                             Both brought up with firearms and familiar with everyday
                                                                                 use

All owned firearms                                                      Neither owned firearms

No access to other firearms other than those                Both had access to firearms at WHF
owned

SC wasn't too tired, dopey and drowsy to manicure and polish her nails, shape her eyebrows, shave her legs (or whatever hair removal method she used) and wash and style her hair (evidence soc photos).  Neither was she too tired, dopey and drowsy to take the call from PB at circa 10pm; why not let June or NB pick up?  After I left home and visited my parents I would never pick up the call unless I was specifically expecting one as I assumed it would be for my parents.  Was SC expecting a call?

23. Barbara Wilson, the farm secretary telephoned the farmhouse at 9.30 p.m. and spoke to Nevill Bamber. He was not cheerful and Mrs Wilson thought she had interrupted an argument. In evidence she described Nevill as abrupt, very impatient and very short. Pamela Boutflour, June Bamber's sister also telephoned the house that evening at about 10 p.m. She spoke first with Sheila Caffell who was quiet and then to her sister. Mrs Boutflour noted nothing unusual in her sister's mood or in their conversation

I suspect the Anschutz was Jeremy Bamber's 1984 Christmas present from his dad.  Sure it was in Nevill's name, but certainly Jeremy's plaything.

Where is it stated that SC did all the above highlighted in bold that night.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt regarding her hair, although even that's debatable.

Depends on your source. The call was for and answered by June - an invite for mother, daughter and the twins to Carbonells Farm on the Thursday.  Because it wasn't her phone Sheila was handed it as a matter of courtesy. Pam Boutflour later reported the conversation was hard-going and that Sheila sounded like a zombie, although I've no idea what one might sound like.  Do you?... sleepy, dopey, drowsy?

[Holly Goodhead]

Holly, Sheila meeting her natural mother was a positive experience for her. Colin said the meeting went better than expected and Sheila was happy about the whole thing. Do you sometimes forget JB was adopted? All you apply to Sheila could also apply to JB. But, imo, I don't think adoption had anything to do with the WHF massacre, it was purely down to greed.

As far as I can see there are crucial differences in SC and JB's experiences as adoptees.  Firstly June did not become clinically depressed as a result of adopting JB as she did with SC.  Secondly JB did not develop mental illness as SC did which imo had its roots in SC's early life experiences.  Thirdly JB showed no interest in reuniting with his birth parents whereas SC did. 

Yes CC and Dr F said SC's experience reuniting with her birth mother was a positive experience but I know from personal experience that these things are never that straight forward 

You can Google 'adoption reunion' and it will throw up loads of returns:

http://www.thelostdaughters.com/2014/03/romanticizing-adoption-and-reunion.html

http://nowwhat.cog7.org/Articles/Home-Family/Children/The_Pain_After_Reunion.html

http://pacer-adoption.org/2014/03/19/the-inner-life-of-the-adopted-child-adoption-trauma-loss-fantasy-search-and-reunion/

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/dec/29/adoption-reunions-road-gets-bumpy

I can understand that those who haven't experienced it can easily discount or minimise its influence on WHF tragedy and I don't mean that facetiously its natural as there is a low level of awareness. 

[Holly Goodhead]

I suspect the Anschutz was Jeremy Bamber's 1984 Christmas present from his dad.  Sure it was in Nevill's name, but certainly Jeremy's plaything.

Where is it stated that SC did all the above highlighted in bold that night.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt regarding her hair, although even that's debatable.

Depends on your source. The call was for and answered by June - an invite for mother, daughter and the twins to Carbonells Farm on the Thursday.  Because it wasn't her phone Sheila was handed it as a matter of courtesy. Pam Boutflour later reported the conversation was hard-going and that Sheila sounded like a zombie, although I've no idea what one might sound like.  Do you?... sleepy, dopey, drowsy?

I'm half watching the prog re Christopher Jefferies. 

PB said she spoke with SC first that to my mind means that she SC picked up the call not June.  I really don't think the word "zombie" would feature in PB's vocabulary.  Imo its just not the sort of word that a female of her age/background would use.  It is certainly not in her WS.  Yes PB said SC was "quiet" and didn't say "goodnight Auntie Pam" as would be the norm.   

I doubt SC did all her personal grooming on the 6th but it appears she did them very recently.  Why would she have been specifically sleepy, dopey and drowsy that particular night?  I believe she was seen by the Foakes skipping down Pages Lane with the twins earlier on in the day.

[adam]

Scipio said on Blue that the massacre took place at the perfect time for an execution. When everyone would be asleep and provide little or no resistance.

Sheila being so hyper & aggressive at this time is much more unlikely. Although there are rumours there was no cheese in the fridge for her to make a midnight cheese & pickle sandwich. No cheese, a loaded rifle....

[Holly Goodhead]

Scipio said on Blue that the massacre took place at the perfect time for an execution. When everyone would be asleep and provide little or no resistance.

Sheila being so hyper & aggressive at this time is much more unlikely. Although there are rumours there was no cheese in the fridge for her to make a midnight cheese & pickle sandwich. No cheese, a loaded rifle....

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5528.0

[Holly Goodhead]

Holly, Sheila meeting her natural mother was a positive experience for her. Colin said the meeting went better than expected and Sheila was happy about the whole thing. Do you sometimes forget JB was adopted? All you apply to Sheila could also apply to JB. But, imo, I don't think adoption had anything to do with the WHF massacre, it was purely down to greed.

Does anyone know why SC's birth mother didn't attend the funerals of SC and the twins?  SC's birth uncle, Peter Jay, attended.