Author Topic: Brexit has well and truly begun!  (Read 285073 times)

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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1680 on: April 03, 2019, 12:42:19 PM »
The only reason we might leave without a deal is because MP's have rejected the withdrawal agreement agreed by the EU and HM Governmebt. The problem is of their making and the solution is in their hands; vote for the WA and move on with negotiating our future relationship.
Except that May's deal is not the Brexit that most Leavers voted for as I'm sure they will be happy to tell you.   ?{)(**
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1681 on: April 03, 2019, 05:21:20 PM »
Why don't you enlighten me as you seem so well informed. What's wrong with it?
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1682 on: April 03, 2019, 05:46:45 PM »
Why don't you enlighten me as you seem so well informed. What's wrong with it?
Don’t ask me, I’m a Remainer and I would put up with it, just to make the whole damn thing go away.  However every Leaver I have spoken to thinks it’s a betrayal of Brexit because it locks us in to the EU indefinitely, has them calling the shots and we have to pay them £39 billion for the privilege.  If it was so brilliant why aren’t the ERG getting right behind it?  Ask Angelo and John if they think Mrs May’s deal is any good.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1683 on: April 03, 2019, 06:37:42 PM »
Don’t ask me, I’m a Remainer and I would put up with it, just to make the whole damn thing go away.  However every Leaver I have spoken to thinks it’s a betrayal of Brexit because it locks us in to the EU indefinitely, has them calling the shots and we have to pay them £39 billion for the privilege.  If it was so brilliant why aren’t the ERG getting right behind it?  Ask Angelo and John if they think Mrs May’s deal is any good.

So your source isn't 'most remainers' just those you have spoken to. How many's that them?
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1684 on: April 03, 2019, 07:12:15 PM »
So your source isn't 'most remainers' just those you have spoken to. How many's that them?
What are you on about?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1685 on: April 03, 2019, 07:20:09 PM »
Here you go

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-deal-opinion-poll-theresa-may-a8831241.html

Also, it may have escaped your notice but there was a big demonstration outside the House of Commons last weekend.  I don't recall seeing many placards endorsing May's deal.  Now why weren't they all pushing for it to go through if it has so much support amongst Leave voters...?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1687 on: April 03, 2019, 07:23:32 PM »
From the Telegraph 11/3/19

More than half of the British public does not think the Prime Minister’s Brexit deal delivers on the referendum result, according to a new poll.

The YouGov survey found only 12 per cent of adults think Theresa May's deal honours the leave vote compared to 58 per cent who claim it does not and 31 per cent who don’t know.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1688 on: April 03, 2019, 09:12:16 PM »
Those aren't the opinions of Leavers, they're mixed. Believe poll results if you wish. 
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1689 on: April 03, 2019, 09:30:09 PM »
Those aren't the opinions of Leavers, they're mixed. Believe poll results if you wish.
Sure, and you believe that the majority of Leavers want May’s deal despite providing no evidence that they do.  BTW, if only 12% of those polled supported May’s deal and some of those are possible Remain voters, does it not follow that the majority of those 52% who originally voted leave are against the deal?  If not perhaps you can demonstrate the maths to support your view.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1690 on: April 03, 2019, 09:42:09 PM »
Hey, wouldn’t it be a good idea to actually hold a referendum to see just how much the GBP support May’s deal?  I guess that would be ultra undemocratic though...  8(8-))
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1691 on: April 03, 2019, 11:26:11 PM »
Sure, and you believe that the majority of Leavers want May’s deal despite providing no evidence that they do.  BTW, if only 12% of those polled supported May’s deal and some of those are possible Remain voters, does it not follow that the majority of those 52% who originally voted leave are against the deal?  If not perhaps you can demonstrate the maths to support your view.

I don't think I expressed an opinion about the electorate. I suggested that MP's should vote it through and get things moving.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1692 on: April 03, 2019, 11:38:29 PM »
I don't think I expressed an opinion about the electorate. I suggested that MP's should vote it through and get things moving.
When I wrote this you seemed intent on disagreeing
“Except that May's deal is not the Brexit that most Leavers voted for as I'm sure they will be happy to tell you”

If you didn’t think I was talking about the electorate who did you think I was referring to?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1693 on: April 04, 2019, 07:29:23 AM »
Another article from today’s Times that’s bang on the money IMO

We’re all paying the price for May’s little lie
Jenni RussellApril 3 2019, 5:00pm,
PM couldn’t have known that ‘No deal is better than a bad deal’ would haunt her two years later


You may not know it, but Theresa May — the indecisive, secretive, blinkered, tribal prime minister taking us to the edge of disaster — is a hidden genius. Hold on to that thought.

Here we are, days from crashing out with no deal. Suddenly there’s a chance of averting destruction, as MPs try to block it, and the prime minister abandons hardline Brexiteers in the hope that Jeremy Corbyn will help get a deal through. It’s only a chance, though. Europe’s leaders are still deeply sceptical that we can agree among ourselves within a week, and if we fail, they may refuse us extra time to inflict confusion on them.

You might suppose that Britain, with the exception of a few extremists raging about betrayal, would be hugely relieved at he chance of avoiding no-deal at the thirteenth hour. How could we not be? This week the cabinet secretary’s private briefing to government on no-deal was leaked. It is shocking.

Sir Mark Sedwill predicts devastation for the economy and “significant disruption”. Food prices would rise 10 per cent, fresh produce by more. Our recession would be worse than in 2008.

We would be much more vulnerable to terrorism and crime; losing information-sharing with EU forces would “enormously increase” the pressure on our security services. No-deal in Northern Ireland, with all the tension over imposing border controls, would leave it so unstable that Whitehall would have to reintroduce direct rule from London, an arrangement with a bitter history.

This is an official record of the civil service’s bleak assessment of what threatens us within a fortnight, not hysterical shroud-waving. It reinforces all the warnings we already have, from the EU’s quietly factual briefings last summer to the increasingly agitated pleas from businesses, councils and hospitals for government to grasp how disastrous crashing out would be.

Yet warnings like these are shrugged off by much of the electorate as invented, exaggerated or short-term, because many now think no-deal is just fine. A YouGov poll shows that if there’s no agreement next week, no-deal is the most popular outcome. People would rather crash out than remain, at 44 to 42 per cent. Even if an extension is granted, 40 per cent want no-deal and only 36 per cent to stay in.

This is dumbfounding. This is a country sanguine about declaring sanctions on itself, putting itself out of work, making crime easier, forcing its own lives to become meaner and harder. Only a third of voters believe the warnings about disruption; 45 per cent think them mostly nonsense.

Why have we ended up here? No-deal was never on offer in the referendum. Brexiteers told us how simple, smooth and profitable Brexit would be, from Liam Fox asserting that an agreement with the EU would be the easiest in human history, to Boris Johnson and Michael Gove promising “no sudden changes that would disrupt the economy”. Nigel Farage suggested joining the EEA, while Vote Leave’s Daniel Hannan said no one was threatening our place in the single market and Owen Paterson that “only a madman” would leave it. Nobody proposed a chaotic, bitter Brexit and yet it is now the most popular option.

This remarkable and dangerous transformation of public opinion is principally Theresa May’s achievement. She unintentionally turned a slogan with some short-term usefulness into one of the most convincing, concise and memorable political messages of recent years. She turns out to be one of the most brilliant, if destructive, marketeers in politics. “No deal is better than a bad deal”, a centrepiece of her Lancaster House speech in January 2017, was only ever meant by her to be a convenient figleaf, simultaneously keeping her Brexiteers loyal and convincing the EU that Britain had other options than to agree to compromise.

It failed on both counts. Where it has spectacularly worked, in May’s endless repetition of it and its gleeful adoption by the right-wing press, is that it has sunk deeply into voters’ consciousness, convincing those confronted with Brexit’s unavoidable tradeoffs and difficulties that we needn’t deal with all these tiresome Europeans and their realities. Because no deal is better than a bad one, right?

The tragedy of this convenient strategic lie and its effective brainwashing is twofold. It threatens public backing for the compromise that May is frantically seeking now, bewildering all those voters who believed her. And it was never in any way true. No-deal, in the sense of freedom and independence, is a mirage. It does not exist.

If we left without a deal the very first thing we would have to do, even if ports were not being paralysed by checks, hospitals running out of radiation medicine and fresh food disappearing from shops, would be to open talks with the EU on new trade rules. Except now we would be supplicants, not members, pitching our 60-million market against one ten times the size. We’d be facing their understandable contempt and fury at our reneging on our existing agreements and obligations to them. And their first preconditions for talks would be as now: money, Ireland, citizens’ rights.

Theresa May never dared explain the reality; that no-deal would mean, in practice, the UK’s immediate surrender to the EU’s emergency terms. Now that she is desperately trying to avert the disaster she herself always understood, the prospects of getting MPs and the public to back it are threatened by the success of her own calculating lie.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1694 on: April 04, 2019, 08:24:59 AM »
When I wrote this you seemed intent on disagreeing
“Except that May's deal is not the Brexit that most Leavers voted for as I'm sure they will be happy to tell you”

If you didn’t think I was talking about the electorate who did you think I was referring to?

When I asked you to explain how you knew what 'most leavers' thought you mentioned people you had spoken to. They aren't the electorate.
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