Author Topic: Brexit has well and truly begun!  (Read 285060 times)

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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2070 on: August 31, 2019, 05:50:52 PM »
Hi Baz, certainly seemed like an attack. It is ok though because I have been fighting for uncomfortable issues to be addresssed by certain communities,only to be called a rascist and a nazi. Hence why my husband has no interest in jousting with online personas as he has been called islamophobic fascist himself by highlighting issues. By ignorat lefties I have to say.   You may have forgotten the London bombings? are you aware many more attacks have been thwarted?

You just go on being defensive and welcoming  people you do not know, and we can both laugh it off. So what does being British mean exactly? That question is so diffcult as  wee have got to bring in culture and there are many which go against the greain of what was once perceieved as being British.


In reply to any 'curious' posters. My husband was found half dead 10 months old he could walk talk and speak 15 languages at 11 months, he did the interpreting and mapping 2 days before his 1st Birthday, all this while his parents were enjoying a few drinks in a local Tapas restaurant...

Some ignoramuses hate Germans  and believe they all played a part in the slaughter of innocents, Some Germans risked their lives by helping and assisting those hunted by the Nazis. they also assisted with spying and other work for the allies.  The same is happening on the middle east. some online personas don't believe it. I laugh it off at their proud stance of ignorance.
Well that was a load of nonsense from start to finish, IMO.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2071 on: September 01, 2019, 09:01:14 AM »
Excellent comment by a reader in today’s Sunday Times -

There’s just so many fundamental contradictions with the Govt’s current position. Leave or remain - please tell me where I am wrong on this?

They guaranteed the rights of EU citizens would be protected. They have now implemented a policy that contradicts that position. They intend to end FoM on 31.10.19. And yet the UK is the country whose citizens have taken the greatest advantage of FoM with more of us living in EU states than any other EU nation. All EU nations have stated they will mirror our FoM response. The more draconian we are, the more draconian they will be. We are on the brink of losing hundreds of thousands of economic contributors and critical workforce and replacing them with repatriated Retirees drawing on state health and social care.

They talked about a positive relationship with the EU in 2016. Their stated actions of no-Deal will economically harm EU27. Moreover by demonising the EU and seeking to cast blame they are souring / destroy lasting relationships with the EU with whom we will need to rebuild a beneficial trading relationship. No Deal is not an end, it is a beginning. The manner of our EU Exit simply sets the tone and ground-rules for our ongoing relationship and our Govt actions appear to be the equivalent of salting the earth.

They intend to massively increase public sector spending after years of austerity at a point when there is both a general global downturn and all economic modelling states a consequence of a disorderly Exit will be exceptionally low / zero growth, increased unemployment and a reduction in tax income. So the policy must be to increase borrowing and debt.

Where is the rationality in these policies?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2072 on: September 01, 2019, 10:37:53 AM »
Excellent comment by a reader in today’s Sunday Times -

There’s just so many fundamental contradictions with the Govt’s current position. Leave or remain - please tell me where I am wrong on this?

They guaranteed the rights of EU citizens would be protected. They have now implemented a policy that contradicts that position. They intend to end FoM on 31.10.19. And yet the UK is the country whose citizens have taken the greatest advantage of FoM with more of us living in EU states than any other EU nation. All EU nations have stated they will mirror our FoM response. The more draconian we are, the more draconian they will be. We are on the brink of losing hundreds of thousands of economic contributors and critical workforce and replacing them with repatriated Retirees drawing on state health and social care.

They talked about a positive relationship with the EU in 2016. Their stated actions of no-Deal will economically harm EU27. Moreover by demonising the EU and seeking to cast blame they are souring / destroy lasting relationships with the EU with whom we will need to rebuild a beneficial trading relationship. No Deal is not an end, it is a beginning. The manner of our EU Exit simply sets the tone and ground-rules for our ongoing relationship and our Govt actions appear to be the equivalent of salting the earth.

They intend to massively increase public sector spending after years of austerity at a point when there is both a general global downturn and all economic modelling states a consequence of a disorderly Exit will be exceptionally low / zero growth, increased unemployment and a reduction in tax income. So the policy must be to increase borrowing and debt.

Where is the rationality in these policies?

The Conservative Party rational? Isn't that asking too much? Was selling off our council housing and our publicly owned utilities rational? Was the Poll Tax rational? Has it been rational to plunge thousands of families into poverty and to cut our public services to the bone recently?
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2073 on: September 01, 2019, 11:18:41 AM »
The Conservative Party rational? Isn't that asking too much? Was selling off our council housing and our publicly owned utilities rational? Was the Poll Tax rational? Has it been rational to plunge thousands of families into poverty and to cut our public services to the bone recently?
I’m not sure if you’ve noticed, but the knight in shining armour who is riding us all towards the sunny uplands of a no-deal Brexit has been a member of the conservative government for some time now, as were Theresa May and that Esther McVey woman you seemed to admire so much.  Amazed that you recognise thst plunging thousands of families into poverty is irrational seeing as how you’re so keen on Brexit and don’t think the economy matters that much.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2074 on: September 01, 2019, 03:08:48 PM »
I’m not sure if you’ve noticed, but the knight in shining armour who is riding us all towards the sunny uplands of a no-deal Brexit has been a member of the conservative government for some time now, as were Theresa May and that Esther McVey woman you seemed to admire so much.  Amazed that you recognise thst plunging thousands of families into poverty is irrational seeing as how you’re so keen on Brexit and don’t think the economy matters that much.

My you do assume and exaggerate imo.

At least this time it will be the Electorate's fault rather than the Conservative's fault!
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2075 on: September 01, 2019, 03:13:57 PM »
My you do assume and exaggerate imo.

At least this time it will be the Electorate's fault rather than the Conservative's fault!
Which bit was an exaggeration?  It will still be the he Conservatives fault - from start to finish, it’s their mess completely.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2076 on: September 01, 2019, 07:58:54 PM »
Which bit was an exaggeration?  It will still be the he Conservatives fault - from start to finish, it’s their mess completely.

They are carrying out the wishes of the electorate, who voted to get out of the EU.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2077 on: September 01, 2019, 08:32:17 PM »
They are carrying out the wishes of the electorate, who voted to get out of the EU.
The fault is the Conservatives completely.  Dave caved in to.the extreme EU sceptics in his party and called a referendum.  Bad move, IMO, as at the time of the referendum many voting did not really understand the pros and cons properly. 
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2078 on: September 02, 2019, 07:16:58 AM »
“The first duty of an MP is to do what he [or she] thinks … is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate.”

Winston Churchill
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2079 on: September 02, 2019, 07:32:25 AM »
The fault is the Conservatives completely.  Dave caved in to.the extreme EU sceptics in his party and called a referendum.  Bad move, IMO, as at the time of the referendum many voting did not really understand the [ censored word ] and cons properly.

They knew what they wanted and they voted for it. Only to be called stupid or too old by know-it-all commentators. Just because some people are able to air their opinions in the media it doesn't make those opinions correct.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2080 on: September 02, 2019, 07:58:13 AM »
“The first duty of an MP is to do what he [or she] thinks … is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate.”

Winston Churchill

Nobody knows which side of the argument Churchill would have been on. Would he have signed the Maastrict Treaty? He supported the idea of a United States of Europe, but he didn't include Britain; "We British have our own Commonwealth of Nations" he said in 1946.
Churchill, Winston (1946). Speech to the Academic Youth (Speech). Zürich, Switzerland.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2081 on: September 02, 2019, 07:58:50 AM »
They knew what they wanted and they voted for it. Only to be called stupid or too old by know-it-all commentators. Just because some people are able to air their opinions in the media it doesn't make those opinions correct.
Oh really?  So when I say I know why the people voted for Brexit I’m ridiculed and asked for cites repeatedly but when you say the people knew what they were voting for then thst’s a fact is it?  OK, whatever you say Boss.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2082 on: September 02, 2019, 08:00:11 AM »
Nobody knows which side of the argument Churchill would have been on. Would he have signed the Maastrict Treaty? He supported the idea of a United States of Europe, but he didn't include Britain; "We British have our own Commonwealth of Nations" he said in 1946.
Churchill, Winston (1946). Speech to the Academic Youth (Speech). Zürich, Switzerland.
Which side he would have been on has nothing to do with the quote I posted.  I guess as far as you are concerned the silly old fool got it wrong on this occasion.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2083 on: September 02, 2019, 08:21:26 AM »
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-theresa-may-leave-voters-remain-eu-referendum-campaign-deal-a8740526.html

The British public still have no idea what they voted for with Brexit – it’s not elitist to admit it
Inviting a largely uninformed public to make a judgement on something as unfathomably complex as EU membership was akin to asking a six-year-old to perform brain surgery – with a crayon

Otto EnglishTuesday 22 January 2019 14:39
In the run up to the 2016 EU referendum I campaigned for Stronger IN on the streets of South London. I’d never canvassed before and it was a disquieting experience. As I trudged through Lewisham handing out flyers, it became horribly apparent that most of those who I stopped to talk to didn’t understand what the hell was going on.

Some asked me to explain it. Others told me they were “voting for Boris”. One guy took my arm and informed me that “chaos is good so I’m voting for chaos”. One of my children’s teachers – who I bumped into by the station – asked me which way she should vote. When I told her I was backing Remain, she stared at me blankly and asked if that was “in or out?”

But it was the older woman who engaged me in the market on a busy Saturday afternoon that really made me realise that our cause was doomed: “I don’t want to join the EU.” She told me. I started to explain that we were already in the EU, the referendum was about leaving it or remaining and when I took out my phone to prove my point she stopped me in my tracks and repeated very deliberately: “No. I’m sorry I’ve made my mind up. I don’t care about that. I’m voting against.” And that was the end of that.

The uncomfortable truth is that whether you voted Remain or Leave in June 2016 you probably voted emotionally. Very few people understood it. Inviting a largely uninformed public to make a judgement on something as unfathomably complex as our membership of the EU was akin to asking a six-year-old to perform delicate brain surgery – with a crayon.

 Brexit deal vote: Opposing groups of protesters gather by parliament

Show all 20
 
And it's not just Brexit. Most people simply do not fathom politics. Most have no understanding of concepts like pooled sovereignty, or how net migration works, or what first past the post is, or how our unwritten constitution functions. Many, frankly, don’t even care. Why should they?

In a parliamentary democracy we elect politicians to make important decisions on our behalf. That’s how the system has functioned for decades and also why the British have traditionally astutely avoided referendums – which reduce perplexingly multifaceted matters to a binary choice. Thatcher famously called referendums the tools of “demagogues and dictators” – but they are more than that. They are a dangerous capitulation of responsibility by the executive to an electorate less equipped to make judgements than they.

Forget the “people’s will” – all evidence demonstrates that the “people’s ignorance” is staggering. Around half of adults don’t know who their MP is while just 11 per cent can name one of their MEPs. A survey carried out in the run up to the 2015 general election revealed that 69 per cent of Britons confessed to having “no interest in politics” while a staggering 59 per cent couldn’t even name the then-prime minister, David Cameron.

And yet we are told daily that the “people understood what they were voting for”. That sacred result – delivered by the hallowed 52 per cent one day in June 2016 – now dictates the course of this nation’s destiny. The British public might be cheerfully ignorant of the mechanisms of politics but put them in a polling station and they are apparently transformed into a master race of all knowing super beings who can do no wrong – and whose will must be delivered at all costs.

Do most British people really understand the backstop? Of course not. What WTO rules mean? No. Who genuinely comprehends the difference between the Norwegian or Canadian models? What percentage of the British population has sat down to read Theresa May’s deal, or even the abstract? I certainly haven’t – have you?

Support free-thinking journalism and subscribe to Independent Minds
Say any of this, dare to imply that the majority simply don’t get any of it whatsoever and you are accused of being an elitist who thinks that the people are stupid. That is why nobody in public life dares to say it. The people aren’t stupid. Far from it. They have better things to do than acquaint themselves with the intricacies of the Maastricht treaty. But their obliviousness is being abused.

The awful truth is that while most people don’t understand what the hell is going on, that lack of knowledge is being used against them by Jacob Rees-Mogg, Farage and friends in the furtherance of their own nebulous cause.

It’s time for a little more honesty. Let’s be frank. Nobody understands what the hell is going on.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2084 on: September 02, 2019, 10:15:01 AM »
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-theresa-may-leave-voters-remain-eu-referendum-campaign-deal-a8740526.html

The British public still have no idea what they voted for with Brexit – it’s not elitist to admit it
Inviting a largely uninformed public to make a judgement on something as unfathomably complex as EU membership was akin to asking a six-year-old to perform brain surgery – with a crayon

Otto EnglishTuesday 22 January 2019 14:39
In the run up to the 2016 EU referendum I campaigned for Stronger IN on the streets of South London. I’d never canvassed before and it was a disquieting experience. As I trudged through Lewisham handing out flyers, it became horribly apparent that most of those who I stopped to talk to didn’t understand what the hell was going on.

Some asked me to explain it. Others told me they were “voting for Boris”. One guy took my arm and informed me that “chaos is good so I’m voting for chaos”. One of my children’s teachers – who I bumped into by the station – asked me which way she should vote. When I told her I was backing Remain, she stared at me blankly and asked if that was “in or out?”

But it was the older woman who engaged me in the market on a busy Saturday afternoon that really made me realise that our cause was doomed: “I don’t want to join the EU.” She told me. I started to explain that we were already in the EU, the referendum was about leaving it or remaining and when I took out my phone to prove my point she stopped me in my tracks and repeated very deliberately: “No. I’m sorry I’ve made my mind up. I don’t care about that. I’m voting against.” And that was the end of that.

The uncomfortable truth is that whether you voted Remain or Leave in June 2016 you probably voted emotionally. Very few people understood it. Inviting a largely uninformed public to make a judgement on something as unfathomably complex as our membership of the EU was akin to asking a six-year-old to perform delicate brain surgery – with a crayon.

 Brexit deal vote: Opposing groups of protesters gather by parliament

Show all 20
 
And it's not just Brexit. Most people simply do not fathom politics. Most have no understanding of concepts like pooled sovereignty, or how net migration works, or what first past the post is, or how our unwritten constitution functions. Many, frankly, don’t even care. Why should they?

In a parliamentary democracy we elect politicians to make important decisions on our behalf. That’s how the system has functioned for decades and also why the British have traditionally astutely avoided referendums – which reduce perplexingly multifaceted matters to a binary choice. Thatcher famously called referendums the tools of “demagogues and dictators” – but they are more than that. They are a dangerous capitulation of responsibility by the executive to an electorate less equipped to make judgements than they.

Forget the “people’s will” – all evidence demonstrates that the “people’s ignorance” is staggering. Around half of adults don’t know who their MP is while just 11 per cent can name one of their MEPs. A survey carried out in the run up to the 2015 general election revealed that 69 per cent of Britons confessed to having “no interest in politics” while a staggering 59 per cent couldn’t even name the then-prime minister, David Cameron.

And yet we are told daily that the “people understood what they were voting for”. That sacred result – delivered by the hallowed 52 per cent one day in June 2016 – now dictates the course of this nation’s destiny. The British public might be cheerfully ignorant of the mechanisms of politics but put them in a polling station and they are apparently transformed into a master race of all knowing super beings who can do no wrong – and whose will must be delivered at all costs.

Do most British people really understand the backstop? Of course not. What WTO rules mean? No. Who genuinely comprehends the difference between the Norwegian or Canadian models? What percentage of the British population has sat down to read Theresa May’s deal, or even the abstract? I certainly haven’t – have you?

Support free-thinking journalism and subscribe to Independent Minds
Say any of this, dare to imply that the majority simply don’t get any of it whatsoever and you are accused of being an elitist who thinks that the people are stupid. That is why nobody in public life dares to say it. The people aren’t stupid. Far from it. They have better things to do than acquaint themselves with the intricacies of the Maastricht treaty. But their obliviousness is being abused.

The awful truth is that while most people don’t understand what the hell is going on, that lack of knowledge is being used against them by Jacob Rees-Mogg, Farage and friends in the furtherance of their own nebulous cause.

It’s time for a little more honesty. Let’s be frank. Nobody understands what the hell is going on.

So he campaigned for Remain, but admits he doesn't fully understand all the details.  Perhaps we should do away with voting on anything, as we're all so ignorant?

What has become clear is that voting for an MP and letting them make decisions for us has been shown to be unsatisfactory. Most of them had no more knowledge about the issues than we did, but had been happily going along with greater integration nevertheless.

In my opinion a lot of MP's are far more interested in their own careers than they are in the 'good of the country'. Faced with being sacked, will the Conservative remainers chose career or country? That will be interesting.
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