Author Topic: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?  (Read 111963 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #720 on: May 16, 2020, 06:44:38 PM »
This article is over two weeks old. There has been nearly 10,000 more deaths in the U.K.

Maybe more...

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #721 on: May 16, 2020, 07:13:47 PM »
Maybe more...
Yes, and I don’t see why the number of deaths since the article was written would have any bearing on the argument being put forward by the article’s author.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #722 on: May 16, 2020, 07:47:23 PM »
Maybe more...

I think the pulling of the international coronavirus comparison chart at the press briefing is telling.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Online Wonderfulspam

I stand with Putin. Glory to Mother Putin.

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #724 on: May 17, 2020, 08:35:17 AM »
Finding it hard to disagree with this, from today’s ST

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Set us free from lockdown, ministers, and stop covering your backs
Jonathan Sumption
Sunday May 17 2020, 12.01am, The Sunday Times
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The lesson of Covid-19 is brutally simple and applies generally to public regulation. Free people make mistakes and willingly take risks. If we hold politicians responsible for everything that goes wrong, they will take away our liberty so that nothing can go wrong. They will do this not for our protection against risk, but for their own protection against criticism.

The lockdown was originally justified as a temporary measure to spread coronavirus infections over a longer period. This was to allow time for the NHS’s critical care capacity to catch up. Hence the slogan “Protect the NHS”.

It was never much of a rationale. The NHS is there to protect us, not the other way round. How could its unpreparedness possibly justify depriving the entire UK population of its liberty, pushing us into the worst recession since the early 18th century, destroying millions of jobs and hundreds of thousands of businesses, piling up public and private debt on a crippling scale and undermining the education of our children?

Since the prime minister’s broadcast last Sunday, the lockdown has found a new rationale. The government has dropped “Protect the NHS” from its slogan. The reason is plain from the paper it published the following day. The NHS is not at risk.

This is partly because the government has done an outstanding job in increasing intensive care capacity, and partly because the threat to the NHS was always overstated. The critical care capacity of the NHS has nearly doubled since January, even without the 4,000 or more additional beds in seven temporary Nightingale hospitals. Around the top of the spike in infections, on April 10, 41% of NHS general acute beds were empty. Only 51% of acute beds were occupied by a Covid-19 patient. The current figure is 20%. The Nightingale hospitals stand empty. These are government figures.


Today, the lockdown is only about shielding us from the risk of infection. This raises serious questions about our relationship with the state. It is our business, not the state’s, to say what risks we will take with our own health. We are not fools or children needing to be told by ministers what is good for us, and forced by police officers to do it. We should not need to consult ministers, as the first member of the public to phone in to the daily press conference did, about whether she was allowed to hug her grandchildren.

The usual answer is that by going out and about we may infect other people. But that no longer works as an excuse for coercion. Those who do not want to run the risk of being infected can isolate themselves voluntarily. They will be no worse off than they are under the current compulsory regime. The rest of us can then get on with our lives.

The continuance of the lockdown is particularly odd given that in its latest paper the government accepts that, whatever we do, Covid-19 is likely to be with us long term. So unless it plans to keep the lockdown in place for ever, all that it achieves is to put off the moment when we have to face the risk anyway.

The prime minister told the House of Commons on Monday that his new so-called plan was workable because the British would use their common sense. In that case, why not allow them to do so by leaving the decisions to them?

Instead, we are resorting to law, which, because it requires exact definition, will always cover very many things that are perfectly harmless. Thus it was OK to go for a walk in the park but not to sunbathe. It is OK to drive to the Lake District but not to visit your second home. It is OK to meet one person but not two, and OK to do it in the front garden but not in the back. This kind of thing is arbitrary and absurd. It discredits the law as well as those who make it.

So how has the government ended up in this unsustainable position?

The answer is that, having originally embarked on a sensible policy that would have avoided a lockdown, it did a 180-degree turn on the afternoon of March 23, without thinking of the wider implications. It was in a blind panic provoked by Professor Neil Ferguson’s “reasonable worst case” of 510,000 deaths. Quite apart from the fact that a worst case is by definition an unlikely one, few scientists now support this figure. But it has had disastrous consequences. It pushed the government into making a decision that mocks our humanity and treats us all as mere tools of government policy.

The government terrified people into submission by giving the impression that Covid-19 was dangerous for everyone. It is not. It attacks people with serious vulnerabilities. By most estimates, between 0.5% and 0.75% of infected persons die. Of those, 87% are over 65 and at least 90% have multiple causes only one of which is Covid-19, according to the Office for National Statistics. The death rate for those under 50 is tiny. For the overwhelming majority, the symptoms are mild. Yet Matt Hancock solemnly intoned that “if you go out, people will die”, in what was surely the high point of governmental hype.

The prime minister’s broadcast was supposed to be his Churchillian moment. Instead, we beheld a man imprisoned by his own rhetoric and the logic of his past mistakes.

The lockdown is now all about protecting politicians’ backs. They are not wicked men, just timid ones, terrified of being blamed for deaths on their watch. But it is a wicked thing that they are doing.

Lord Sumption is a former Supreme Court judge and last year’s BBC Reith lecturer
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #725 on: May 17, 2020, 08:37:24 AM »
And the most popular comment to the above article:

Lord Sumption is absolutely correct in pointing out that, in a liberal society, people should be free to assess their own risks, and make decisions accordingly.
Yet one of the most poisonous aspects about having a National Health Service, collectively paid for by the taxpayer, is that it makes every man a stakeholder in the health of everyone else.  Hospital beds are limited, numbers of doctors and nurses are low, and finances are perpetually strained.  This gives people the language and moral standing to denounce those whose decisions, in their view, will take up hospital resources and therefore their money.  It is exactly because of this that we have to place "protect the NHS" before "save lives" in the government slogan. 
By making one's health a public commodity, it empowers the government to make coercive decisions about our bodies, consumptions and choices.  Whatever one's views on alcohol and obesity, is it the business of a government to impose strenuous taxes on sugary drinks, or to introduce minimum alcohol pricing?  You might agree with these; indeed, they may be rather benign.
Yet the Coronavirus has shown how this healthcare arrangement can bring forth authoritarian streaks in our country.  "Those who flout lockdown rules should not receive any treatment!", "your selfish decisions are taking away hospital beds from those who need them!", "you better clap for 'our' wonderful NHS!". 
The NHS is the golden calf which, as long as it remains politically inviolable in the way it currently is, will give hysterical people the ammunition to tell people what to do with their lives.  It will take a brave politician, but the NHS must be wholly reformed so that it protects our health, not we who protect its.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #726 on: May 17, 2020, 10:30:11 AM »
https://www.opinium.co.uk/public-opinion-on-coronavirus-13th-may/

Public opinion on coronavirus
13th May
Government response to Coronavirus
The last week has seen a significant drop in public confidence in, and approval of, the Government’s handling of the coronavirus situation.Approval of the handling of the crisis has also decreased from 48% to 39%, while disapproval has climbed from 36% to 42%. This is the first time these approval ratings are in negative territory.

 
Meanwhile two-fifths (39%) now state they are not confident in the Government’s abilities, rising from 31% last week.
Confusion over Covid advice
Half (53%) of the English public do not feel that the new Government slogan of ‘Stay Alert, Control the Virus, Save Lives’ is clear, and less than a third (31%) of the British public were able to correctly identify where the UK is on the COVID Alert System scale that the Government introduced [number 4 on the scale].
Public feels uncomfortable using public transport
Once lockdown is lifted, it will likely take some time for the public to feel comfortable travelling by public transport again. Only one in seven would feel comfortable travelling by train/Overground or bus (15% and 16% respectively). This drops to 12% who would feel comfortable immediately travelling by metro/underground and 11% for travelling by plane.
More than one in four would not feel comfortable using any of these forms of public transport again until a vaccine is available.
Keir Starmer is gradually winning over  the undecided
Now for the first time, the proportion approving of the Labour leader’s performance outnumbers those who have yet to make up their minds and the ratio of approvers to disapprovers has remained broadly constant. Although Opinium only started tracking approval ratings in 2012, this is a more positive picture than either of Starmer’s predecessors was able to point to.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Online Eleanor

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #727 on: May 17, 2020, 11:07:21 AM »

I had a frightfully interesting conversation with my youngest son this morning.  "You might die of Flu, Mother."

"Not if I don't catch it."  said I.  And he is going to get it before I do.

Boris?  You couldn't make it up.  He had it and survived.  That was a good one.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #728 on: May 17, 2020, 07:32:15 PM »
Behave Davel.

looks like I was right again....Dr Nagpaul was not speaking for the BMA as  a whole and whilst he is a GP a Consultant Paediatric Immunologist has criticised his statement accusing him of misinterpreting the evidence.

Dr Munro accused Dr Nagpaul of making 'clear errors' in warning of the risks
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 07:34:36 PM by Davel »

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #729 on: May 17, 2020, 07:39:11 PM »
looks like I was right again....Dr Nagpaul was not speaking for the BMA as  a whole and whilst he is a GP a Consultant Paediatric Immunologist has criticised his statement accusing him of misinterpreting the evidence.

Dr Munro accused Dr Nagpaul of making 'clear errors' in warning of the risks


Could we see the quote in context please ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #730 on: May 17, 2020, 08:16:55 PM »
looks like I was right again....Dr Nagpaul was not speaking for the BMA as  a whole and whilst he is a GP a Consultant Paediatric Immunologist has criticised his statement accusing him of misinterpreting the evidence.

Dr Munro accused Dr Nagpaul of making 'clear errors' in warning of the risks

Yep, he’s made a fool of himself - all politically motivated of course, it’s really quite sickening.

CORONAVIRUS
BMA ‘got science wrong’ in urging schools to stay closed
new
Schools should begin to reopen to general pupils from June 1, the government has said
Schools should begin to reopen to general pupils from June 1, the government has said
TIME GOODE/PA WIRE
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The largest doctors’ union has been criticised for saying that it is too early to consider opening schools, with other experts accusing it of making errors in its representation of scientific studies from other countries.

The British Medical Association wrote an open letter on Friday to the National Education Union, which represents teachers, supporting its opposition to government plans to reopen schools on June 1.

Chaand Nagpaul, BMA chairman, wrote that the little evidence so far on the potential dangers posed by reopening schools was conflicting and that the teaching unions had been “absolutely right” to urge caution.

“Until we have got case numbers much lower, we should not consider reopening schools,” he said.

Other experts took issue with the comments. “The BMA have caused headlines by focusing on the wrong part of the debate and by doing so have not presented a balanced representation of their members’ views,” Saul Faust, professor of paediatric immunology and infectious diseases at Southampton University and University Hospital Southampton, said.


He added: “Society has to reopen, children need to return to school as there are negatives for many of having to stay at home and we need to be able to study transmission dynamics in all ages to help us learn how to manage this virus.

“Slowly opening schools in a controlled way will be of low risk to children’s health and less risk to teachers than the risk to many other workers when on public transport.”

In his letter Dr Nagpaul cited a study from New South Wales in Australia, which suggested that very little transmission of the virus was associated with schools. However, he argued that the picture was confused by a separate study from Berlin, which looked at the amount of virus carried by infected children.

He wrote that the German study showed that children were “just as likely to be infected as adults and may be just as infectious”.

Alasdair Munro, clinical research fellow in paediatric infectious diseases at University Hospital, said that the letter contained “clear errors in interpretation of the evidence of transmission in children”.

He added: “The German study examining viral loads did not find children were ‘just as likely to be infected as adults’. It made no comment on this at all, but did find substantially lower numbers of children positive for SARS-CoV-2 in the cohort.

“In addition, the study did not demonstrate children are ‘just as infectious’ as adults. The study made no firm conclusions, but did find viral load increased with age . . . Whilst not the sole indicator of how infectious an individual is, this certainly does not indicate children are as infectious as adults.”

Catherine Carroll-Meehan, head of the school of education and sociology at the University of Portsmouth, said: “Given that we are in warmer months, a compromise might be to have children return to education and use outdoor learning spaces, parks, playgrounds in addition to the classroom. The Danish have recently opened schools and applied social distancing effectively.

“The key to this is knowing who has the virus, who is symptomatic and asymptomatic, testing for antibodies and reassuring the public about safety.”

A spokeswoman for the BMA said: “We are not commenting any further on this today
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #731 on: May 17, 2020, 11:22:17 PM »
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8315411/Department-Educations-chief-scientific-adviser-casts-doubt-June-1-date-schools-reopening.html

From the comments.

‘School staff having access to testing if they're showing symptoms??? If you're showing symptoms it's probably too late & you could potentially die. As a teacher I have been in school every day since lockdown, not bothered about Easter or bank holidays & haven't whinged which will surprise the anti teacher brigade; so long as we are doing what we can to help other key workers & are insuring the vulnerable children are safe. I also fall into the high risk category for personal health reasons but put this aside & have been sensible whilst in school. But reopening with insufficient room to split children into groups of 15 & insufficient number of staff to manage each group & insufficient resources as they can't share etc is total & utter madness. Therefore for the first time in 33 years of teaching I will be following union advice & will have no part in reopening.‘
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 11:41:17 PM by Faithlilly »
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #732 on: May 17, 2020, 11:34:31 PM »
It really seems that the further to the left you are, the more you want this country to stay in lockdown forever.  It’s weird how the left so embrace  having their freedoms removed by the state.  Perhaps it is this childish need to have the Nanny State look after you and tell you what you can and can’t do, thus removing the need to stand on your own two feet, or make your own decisions or take any risks. 
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #733 on: May 18, 2020, 07:21:27 AM »
Thank God not all teachers are selfish and politically motivated and some at least have their pupils best interests at heart:

“In a letter to The Times, 22 of the biggest and best-known academy trusts across England said that the quality of the debate had been unhelpful and was not reflective of the sector.


They said: “Since the lockdown, schools have exercised outstanding civic leadership. We have remained open for key workers’ children; kept vulnerable children safe; delivered food parcels; taught online lessons; and kept in contact with pupils. But for any child, prolonged absence from school is concerning. For disadvantaged pupils, it is calamitous. If we do not take action and reopen schools soon, the impact of lost learning could be irreparable.”

They added: “Rigorous risk assessment at school level is a precursor to any reopening. We ask for improved dialogue and for all parties to work together from now.”

The signatories include the chief executives of Star Academies, Academies Enterprise Trust, David Ross Education Trust, Ormiston Academies Trust, Outwood Grange Academies Trust and Cabot Learning Federation”.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #734 on: May 18, 2020, 08:34:05 AM »
Thank God not all teachers are selfish and politically motivated and some at least have their pupils best interests at heart:

“In a letter to The Times, 22 of the biggest and best-known academy trusts across England said that the quality of the debate had been unhelpful and was not reflective of the sector.


They said: “Since the lockdown, schools have exercised outstanding civic leadership. We have remained open for key workers’ children; kept vulnerable children safe; delivered food parcels; taught online lessons; and kept in contact with pupils. But for any child, prolonged absence from school is concerning. For disadvantaged pupils, it is calamitous. If we do not take action and reopen schools soon, the impact of lost learning could be irreparable.”

They added: “Rigorous risk assessment at school level is a precursor to any reopening. We ask for improved dialogue and for all parties to work together from now.”

The signatories include the chief executives of Star Academies, Academies Enterprise Trust, David Ross Education Trust, Ormiston Academies Trust, Outwood Grange Academies Trust and Cabot Learning Federation”.

It seems to me that for some scoring points against the present govt is more important than children's welfare. I've got 3 teenage children and I feel their education and future is
being jeopardised.