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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: faithlilly on April 11, 2015, 12:13:20 PM
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Looking at the dismissing of witnesses by certain sections of this forum it would seem that this case, above any other, has had more merely mistaken or downright dishonest witnesses than in any other missing persons case in history. Just off the top of my head there's Pamela Fenn, Yvonne Martin, Martin Smith and his wife, the cleaner who saw the cot in the McCann's bedroom and of course the Gaspars, although I'm sure members can come up with many more.
Is it really believable that so many witnesses got things so wrong or is there another, more rational reason why these witnesses statements don't corrsspond with the official version ?
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Looking at the dismissing of witnesses by certain sections of this forum it would seem that this case, above any other, has had more merely mistaken or downright dishonest witnesses than in any other missing persons case in history. Just off the top of my head there's Pamela Fenn, Yvonne Martin, Martin Smith and his wife, the cleaner who saw the cot in the McCann's bedroom and of course the Gaspars, although I'm sure members can come up with many more.
Is it really believable that so many witnesses got things so wrong or is there another, more rational reason why these witnesses statements don't corrsspond with the official version ?
With luck, people trying to help will contact the police (or be contacted by them) with what they think they've heard or seen, or doubts that they may have. Nothing wrong with that (unless malice is involved), but it's then up to the police to investigate further and validate what can be validated.
Unless initial statements have been followed up after a cooling period (bearing in mind the perhaps unconscious influence of news coverage), and can be cross-referenced to other information and judged to be accurate and reliable, then it doesn't mean very much, does it?
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With luck, people trying to help will contact the police (or be contacted by them) with what they think they've heard or seen, or doubts that they may have. Nothing wrong with that (unless malice is involved), but it's then up to the police to investigate further and validate what can be validated.
Unless initial statements have been followed up after a cooling period (bearing in mind the perhaps unconscious influence of news coverage), and can be cross-referenced to other information and judged to be accurate and reliable, then it doesn't mean very much, does it?
So do you think all the witnesses mentioned above were accurate and reliable Carana ?
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Looking at the dismissing of witnesses by certain sections of this forum it would seem that this case, above any other, has had more merely mistaken or downright dishonest witnesses than in any other missing persons case in history. Just off the top of my head there's Pamela Fenn, Yvonne Martin, Martin Smith and his wife, the cleaner who saw the cot in the McCann's bedroom and of course the Gaspars, although I'm sure members can come up with many more.
Is it really believable that so many witnesses got things so wrong or is there another, more rational reason why these witnesses statements don't corrsspond with the official version ?
I agree, They are just playing follow thy leader. Kate and Team McCann, have every right to challenge any attack made upon them, but she does it with venomous,spite, Something we do see here.
The fact that they really can't be expected to remember everything on the day their daughter dissapeared, leaves me to belive they have got 'selective memory' perhaps the bits they do not recall are recalled by witnesses- why would they all lie? It makes no sense at all they have nothing to hide...
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So do you think all the witnesses mentioned above were accurate and reliable Carana ?
I have no idea. It was up to the PJ to verify and cross-check.
Mrs Fenn's testimony, for example, could have been important and shouldn't have been that difficult to verify and cross-check, but it doesn't seem to have been. A bit late now.
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So do you think all the witnesses mentioned above were accurate and reliable Carana ?
I would question Mrs. Fenn's recollection of what she heard and when she heard it.
The crying episode, Mrs. Fenn said she heard a child crying on the Tuesday evening, this child cried for three quarters of an hour, then the child cried 'Daddy'.
In my opinion, what Mrs. Fenn heard was Amelie wake up crying, she then woke Sean and Madeleine, in my opinion Sean then cried, and then Madeleine called 'Daddy' she then went into Kate and Gerry's bedroom, Gerry was just about to go into their bedroom.
I think Mrs. Fenn got the timing wrong as this all happened later than she said it did.
In my opinion this night is also what Madeleine referred to when she said 'why didn't you come when Sean and me were crying' she meant the Tuesday night in my opinion, Sean and Madeleine were woken by Amelie crying.
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The McCann's did have an extra cot in their apartment, this was handed to one of the friends.
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There's this one;
her job is to receive guests at the entrance to the Millenium restaurant and check whether they have to pay for breakfast or whether this is included in their package. She works from 07.00 to 12.00 from Tuesdays to Saturdays. She says that she only attends to guests at breakfast time except on Wednesdays when there is Barbecue Night at the restaurant and when she welcomes guests for dinner, working from 18.00 to 22.00.
When asked, she says that she knows the parents, the siblings and Madeleine. She received them for breakfast on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, she does not know whether they went for breakfast on Sunday or Monday, as these were her days off.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CECILIA-DFC.htm
She would definitely know their names as she was checking against the booking sheets, but six other Millenium workers agreed with her too.
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There's this one;
her job is to receive guests at the entrance to the Millenium restaurant and check whether they have to pay for breakfast or whether this is included in their package. She works from 07.00 to 12.00 from Tuesdays to Saturdays. She says that she only attends to guests at breakfast time except on Wednesdays when there is Barbecue Night at the restaurant and when she welcomes guests for dinner, working from 18.00 to 22.00.
When asked, she says that she knows the parents, the siblings and Madeleine. She received them for breakfast on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, she does not know whether they went for breakfast on Sunday or Monday, as these were her days off.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CECILIA-DFC.htm
She would definitely know their names as she was checking against the booking sheets, but six other Millenium workers agreed with her too.
Did the other Millenium workers actually see the McCanns or was this hearsay based on what they'd heard from the receptionist, directly or indirectly?
Why would the rest of the Tapas group corroborate that the McCanns didn't go there for breakfast aside from that first morning?
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Looking at the dismissing of witnesses by certain sections of this forum it would seem that this case, above any other, has had more merely mistaken or downright dishonest witnesses than in any other missing persons case in history. Just off the top of my head there's Pamela Fenn, Yvonne Martin, Martin Smith and his wife, the cleaner who saw the cot in the McCann's bedroom and of course the Gaspars, although I'm sure members can come up with many more.
Is it really believable that so many witnesses got things so wrong or is there another, more rational reason why these witnesses statements don't corrsspond with the official version ?
How many other witness statements in missing persons cases have you been privileged enough to have been able to pick over at your leisure?
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How many other witness statements in missing persons cases have you been privileged enough to have been able to pick over at your leisure?
Probably the same amount as you and 'supporters' have to vilify people you do not even know (who were at a 'scene of police interest') - on the say so of others you do not know! namely Team McCann.
Sound about right?
Can all the witnesses be wrong? what are the chances? The McCanns and tapas all claiming they do not have photographic memory of what happened! Time line, time line will some one give them a bloody beliveable timeline! Purrrrleeez
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Probably the same amount as you and 'supporters' have to vilify people you do not even know (who were at a 'scene of police interest') - on the say so of others you do not know! namely Team McCann.
Sound about right?
Can all the witnesses be wrong? what are the chances? The McCanns and tapas all claiming they do not have photographic memory of what happened! Time line, time line will some one give them a bloody beliveable timeline! Purrrrleeez
Thank you for your ill-considered rant. You seem to have misunderstood. Most people do not have access to numerous witness statements in a police investigation in order to judge whether or not this case in particular has an above average number of unreliable witnesses or not, so we're none of us in a position to answer the OP. I do know however that the police are fully aware that witnesses are human, and that witness statements will not always be 100% accurate representations of actual events. Some people tend to forget that.
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Thank you for your ill-considered rant. You seem to have misunderstood. Most people do not have access to numerous witness statements in a police investigation in order to judge whether or not this case in particular has an above average number of unreliable witnesses or not, so we're none of us in a position to answer the OP. I do know however that the police are fully aware that witnesses are human, and that witness statements will not always be 100% accurate representations of actual events. Some people tend to forget that.
Strange that the unreliable witnesses are always the ones who don't support the McCanns claim of abduction.
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Strange that the unreliable witnesses are always the ones who don't support the McCanns claim of abduction.
Yeah, funny that. One might almost think there was a conspiracy to do them down @)(++(*
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Did the other Millenium workers actually see the McCanns or was this hearsay based on what they'd heard from the receptionist, directly or indirectly?
Why would the rest of the Tapas group corroborate that the McCanns didn't go there for breakfast aside from that first morning?
The other witness statements are in the files under Millenium employees. I have no idea why the statements disagree.
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Thank you for your ill-considered rant. You seem to have misunderstood. Most people do not have access to numerous witness statements in a police investigation in order to judge whether or not this case in particular has an above average number of unreliable witnesses or not, so we're none of us in a position to answer the OP. I do know however that the police are fully aware that witnesses are human, and that witness statements will not always be 100% accurate representations of actual events. Some people tend to forget that.
Pah... You were trying to be smart and got caught up in your own self righteous finger pointing. The human witnesses would include the 'forgetful tapas as well then?
PS My post was well considered, I misunderstood nothing. You were trying to score points.
Can you answer ARE ALL of the witness statements wrong? Lace has expressed what he/she wants to belive what happened- even though they were not there. Mrs Fenn was quite emphatic about what she heard and saw- so for lace to rewrite a witness statement is staggering- the lenghts some will go to...
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Pah... You were trying to be smart and got caught up in your own self righteous finger pointing. The human witnesses would include the 'forgetful tapas as well then?
PS My post was well considered, I misunderstood nothing. You were trying to score points.
Can you answer ARE ALL of the witness statements wrong? Lace has expressed what he/she wants to belive what happened- even though they were not there. Mrs Fenn was quite emphatic about what she heard and saw- so for lace to rewrite a witness statement is staggering- the lenghts some will go to...
davels just been questioning the Gasper statement also on another thread. @)(++(*
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davels just been questioning the Gasper statement also on another thread. @)(++(*
All for the cause mccann.
8(0(*
He even claimed he knows Fiona Payne the other day.
Mind you I take any of his claims with a pinch of NaCl.
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Looking at the dismissing of witnesses by certain sections of this forum it would seem that this case, above any other, has had more merely mistaken or downright dishonest witnesses than in any other missing persons case in history. Just off the top of my head there's Pamela Fenn, Yvonne Martin, Martin Smith and his wife, the cleaner who saw the cot in the McCann's bedroom and of course the Gaspars, although I'm sure members can come up with many more.
Is it really believable that so many witnesses got things so wrong or is there another, more rational reason why these witnesses statements don't corrsspond with the official version ?
You are allowing your imagination to run rampant.
From the fact that Martin Smith agreed (after initial refusal) to produce an e-fit, we can reasonably infer that he has long since recanted of the view that the Smiths all saw Gerry that evening (a view, incidentally, never shared by any of his children).
Yvonne Martin was dismissed by PJ Inspector Ferraria
Mr Gaspar's statement runs much truer than his wife's.
And Gerry was verified by independent witnesses as at the Tapas Restaurant at the time of the Smith sighting.
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I would question Mrs. Fenn's recollection of what she heard and when she heard it.
The crying episode, Mrs. Fenn said she heard a child crying on the Tuesday evening, this child cried for three quarters of an hour, then the child cried 'Daddy'.
In my opinion, what Mrs. Fenn heard was Amelie wake up crying, she then woke Sean and Madeleine, in my opinion Sean then cried, and then Madeleine called 'Daddy' she then went into Kate and Gerry's bedroom, Gerry was just about to go into their bedroom.
I think Mrs. Fenn got the timing wrong as this all happened later than she said it did.
In my opinion this night is also what Madeleine referred to when she said 'why didn't you come when Sean and me were crying' she meant the Tuesday night in my opinion, Sean and Madeleine were woken by Amelie crying.
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I am tempted to say you couldn't make it up....but someone just did!!. Picture the idylic setting. no one is out dining and drinking at all, the family are happlily in bed...all nice and snug. Daddy was there to see to his distressed child it was not maddie who cried according to Lace- WHO WAS NOT THERE. Or was lace there? Hmmm
I hear tell Hitler was a real fun merchant- with a snazzy dress sense and a lover of Haggis...who knew nothing about kiling jews and other innocents.. Well I thought I would give re writing history a go...seems to be the thing on here.
davels just been questioning the Gasper statement also on another thread. @)(++(*
Yes!..bewildering I know.
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check the thread ...I never said I knew Fiona Payne...I just like to show how easy it is for people to misinterpret things
Reported for abusive comment.
Let's serif the mods take action.
Fourth one today.
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Reported for abusive comment.
Let's serif the mods take action.
Fourth one today.
so where did I say I knew Fiona Payne...genius
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Strange that the unreliable witnesses are always the ones who don't support the McCanns claim of abduction.
Please don't talk horse poop. The McCanns and their friends' statements are also riddled with inconsistencies. Of course to you these are "lies", whereas to reasonable people they are just what you'd expect to find in most honestly-given witness statements, ie: minor inaccuracies in recall.
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check the thread ...I never said I knew Fiona Payne...I just like to show how easy it is for people to misinterpret things
I believe the thread was referring to her, and you said You knew her.
Have you altered your post ?
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I believe the thread was referring to her, and you said You knew her.
Have you altered your post ?
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
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You are allowing your imagination to run rampant.
From the fact that Martin Smith agreed (after initial refusal) to produce an e-fit, we can reasonably infer that he has long since recanted of the view that the Smiths all saw Gerry that evening (a view, incidentally, never shared by any of his children).
Yvonne Martin was dismissed by PJ Inspector Ferraria
Mr Gaspar's statement runs much truer than his wife's.
And Gerry was verified by independent witnesses as at the Tapas Restaurant at the time of the Smith sighting.
How do you know the Smiths did a e-fit?
Where does it say Yvonne Martin was dismissed?
You would prefer Mr Gasper wouldn't you? Take one, take both.
Which independant witnesses saw Gerald at the Tapas?
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I believe the thread was referring to her, and you said You knew her.
Have you altered your post ?
As I recall, you asked him if he knew FP and he replied 'yes'
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I'll ask Faithlilly again as she chose to ignore it the first time:
How many other witness statements in missing persons cases have you been privileged enough to have been able to pick over at your leisure?
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As I recall, you asked him if he knew FP and he replied 'yes'
Then you have poor recall too..
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The other witness statements are in the files under Millenium employees. I have no idea why the statements disagree.
Perhaps that's another instance in which cctv might have been useful.
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Here's a BBC article for all you "sceptics" to scoff at - enjoy!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4177082.stm
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As I recall, you asked him if he knew FP and he replied 'yes'
Indeed Jassi.
davel has a short memory it seems.
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Then you have poor recall too..
Nah.
Just observant of your 'stories'.
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Indeed Jassi.
davel has a short memory it seems.
the post is still there...it cannot be altered as it contains your post....your usual tactic...when I make a Charlie of you just pretend it didn't happen
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How do you know the Smiths did a e-fit?
Where does it say Yvonne Martin was dismissed?
You would prefer Mr Gasper wouldn't you? Take one, take both.
Which independant witnesses saw Gerald at the Tapas?
Who produced the efits if not the Smiths?
The statements given to the PJ today by Yvonne Martin provide a concrete clarification of the reasons for her suspicions, which in my opinion, do not point to any concrete element that could, in any way, make other inquiries directly related to her statements, viable.
With nothing further to add.
Signed
Inspector Ferreira
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the post is still there...it cannot be altered as it contains your post....your usual tactic...when I make a Charlie of you just pretend it didn't happen
You said Fiona.
It was in context with her, I.e. Payne.
Which other Fiona would you be referring to ?
Here we are...................................................
' Quote from: davel on April 10, 2015, 06:10:43 PM
Most people on this forum don't understand what evidence means...do you?
I'm sure Fiona made nothing up....nor is she lying '
My response..........
Quote from: stephen25000 on April 10, 2015, 06:20:08 PM
' Do you know Fiona ? '
Quote from: davel on April 10, 2015, 06:22:03 PM
' yes '
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Davel, you did claim to know Fiona Payne you replied 'yes'...
It has been descided that witnesses wo saw anything wich did not tie in with Team McCANNS version are to be discredited and discounted... So where were we.. ahh high winds bellowing curtains and whooshing sounds...
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How do you know the Smiths did a e-fit?
Where does it say Yvonne Martin was dismissed?
You would prefer Mr Gasper wouldn't you? Take one, take both.
Which independant witnesses saw Gerald at the Tapas?
What exactly was Yvonne Martin's evidence? She reported nothing sinister about DP's behaviour during her 'visit' on 4th May. IIRC she thought she recognised him from somewhere - but couldn't remember where. It could have been someone work-related but if even if it was - she didn't know whether he was a 'goodie' or a 'baddie'.
8 years later and she still hasn't remembered. Wow - big deal.
Apart from that - I have no time for people who write anonymous letters.
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Davel, you did claim to know Fiona Payne you replied 'yes'...
It has been descided that witnesses wo saw anything wich did not tie in with Team McCANNS version are to be discredited and discounted... So where were we.. ahh high winds bellowing curtains and whooshing sounds...
He'll no doubt claim he was referring to a different Fiona - just trying to be a smart-arse, as usual.
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Here's a BBC article for all you "sceptics" to scoff at - enjoy!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4177082.stm
Interesting, particularly how news can influence memories. There have been quite a few studies on this in the UK, which I've provided links to several times, but some people just don't seem to be interested.
I find that a shame as mistaken witness statements could affect any of us if we ever happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Davel, you did claim to know Fiona Payne you replied 'yes'...
It has been descided that witnesses wo saw anything wich did not tie in with Team McCANNS version are to be discredited and discounted... So where were we.. ahh high winds bellowing curtains and whooshing sounds...
you are just showing how poor witness recall is...the post is still there...I did not claim to know Fiona Payne
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You said Fiona.
It was in context with her, I.e. Payne.
Which other Fiona would you be referring to ?
Here we are...................................................
' Quote from: davel on April 10, 2015, 06:10:43 PM
Most people on this forum don't understand what evidence means...do you?
I'm sure Fiona made nothing up....nor is she lying '
My response..........
Quote from: stephen25000 on April 10, 2015, 06:20:08 PM
' Do you know Fiona ? '
Quote from: davel on April 10, 2015, 06:22:03 PM
' yes '
So you have confirmed that your recall is poor... I never claimed to know Fiona Payne
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Interesting, particularly how news can influence memories. There have been quite a few studies on this in the UK, which I've provided links to several times, but some people just don't seem to be interested.
I find that a shame as mistaken witness statements could affect any of us if we ever happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
"Sceptics" generally aren't all that interested in unbiased articles that don't play to their prejudices, I find.
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What exactly was Yvonne Martin's evidence? She reported nothing sinister about DP's behaviour during her 'visit' on 4th May. IIRC she thought she recognised him from somewhere - but couldn't remember where. It could have been someone work-related but if even if it was - she didn't know whether he was a 'goodie' or a 'baddie'.
8 years later and she still hasn't remembered. Wow - big deal.
Apart from that - I have no time for people who write anonymous letters.
What about dossiers you have time for those people?...
and vilifying all witnesses shows a serious lack of balance in reviewing events.
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you are just showing how poor witness recall is...the post is still there...I did not claim to know Fiona Payne
Read again.
Now which other Fiona was involved in the case ?
Was it Fiona Nobody ?
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Read again.
Now which other Fiona was involved in the case ?
Was it Fiona Nobody ?
I never said I knew Fiona payne as you have claimed..you made an assumption
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Davel, you did claim to know Fiona Payne you replied 'yes'...
It has been descided that witnesses wo saw anything wich did not tie in with Team McCANNS version are to be discredited and discounted... So where were we.. ahh high winds bellowing curtains and whooshing sounds...
Whooshing like this, when Rebelo opened window
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/sun-30-10-7-pr2.JPG)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/sun-30-10-7-pr3.JPG)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/sun-30-10-7-pr4.JPG)
(http://sosmaddie.blogs.dhnet.be/media/02/00/a7d9d28fa19c611b95e249dad1b6ef00.png)
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You are allowing your imagination to run rampant.
From the fact that Martin Smith agreed (after initial refusal) to produce an e-fit, we can reasonably infer that he has long since recanted of the view that the Smiths all saw Gerry that evening (a view, incidentally, never shared by any of his children).
Yvonne Martin was dismissed by PJ Inspector Ferraria
Mr Gaspar's statement runs much truer than his wife's.
And Gerry was verified by independent witnesses as at the Tapas Restaurant at the time of the Smith sighting.
Firstly Martin Smith agreed with his claim to be 80% sure it was Gerry.
Yvonne Smith's evidence wasn't dismissed. It was simply thought nothing useful could be gleaned from it which would to the investigation forward.
If you were not there how can you have any idea which one of the Gaspar's starement is the most accurate ?
And there is not one independent witness starement that puts Gerry inthe tapas bar just before Kate's alert.
Over to you.
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Firstly Martin Smith agreed with his claim to be 80% sure it was Gerry.
Yvonne Smith's evidence wasn't dismissed. It was simply thought nothing useful could be gleaned from it which would to the investigation forward.
If you were not there how can you have any idea which one of the Gaspar's starement is the most accurate ?
And there is not one independent witness starement that puts Gerry inthe tapas bar just before Kate's alert.
Over to you.
You are simply throwing mud hoping some of it sticks..a dirty tactic...
With access to all this evidence...SY declare McCanns not suspects...that's pretty clear
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I never said I knew Fiona payne as you have claimed..you made an assumption
Which other Fiona has been involved in this case ?
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You are simply throwing mud hoping some of it sticks..a dirty tactic...
With access to all this evidence...SY declare McCanns not suspects...that's pretty clear
All SY has, or so they claim, is a belief in abduction.
Nothing else.
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Which other Fiona has been involved in this case ?
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
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I am tempted to say you couldn't make it up....but someone just did!!. Picture the idylic setting. no one is out dining and drinking at all, the family are happlily in bed...all nice and snug. Daddy was there to see to his distressed child it was not maddie who cried according to Lace- WHO WAS NOT THERE. Or was lace there? Hmmm
I hear tell Hitler was a real fun merchant- with a snazzy dress sense and a lover of Haggis...who knew nothing about kiling jews and other innocents.. Well I thought I would give re writing history a go...seems to be the thing on here.
Yes!..bewildering I know.
If you read my post properly, I said in my opinion, it was Amelie who Mrs. Fenn heard first of all, who woke Sean, then Madeleine who called 'Daddy' Mrs. Fenn did not say she heard MADELEINE crying, she said she heard a child that wasn't a baby. So it is YOU who is making it up in saying that Mrs. Fenn said she heard Madeleine she didn't !!
I also said it was my opinion that Mrs. Fenn was out about the time, Kate McCann said Madeleine came to their room about 12 ish, saying that Amelie had woken her and Sean, she asked to stay in their bedroom, by the look of it both Amelie and Sean had gone back to sleep by then. So DADDY WAS THERE!!
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Perhaps that's another instance in which cctv might have been useful.
Are you saying that all those witnesses were wrong then? I quoted the one whose job it was to check everyone who breakfasted at the restaurant and to make sure those who should pay did pay. To do that she checked names, she didn't just assume.
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Whooshing like this, when Rebelo opened window
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/sun-30-10-7-pr2.JPG)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/sun-30-10-7-pr3.JPG)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/sun-30-10-7-pr4.JPG)
(http://sosmaddie.blogs.dhnet.be/media/02/00/a7d9d28fa19c611b95e249dad1b6ef00.png)
Oh it was the net curtains that were 'whooshing'...OK I tried that at home. Not a sound. no whooshing.
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@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
You need help.
%£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**# 8(0(*
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What about dossiers you have time for those people?...
and vilifying all witnesses shows a serious lack of balance in reviewing events.
Why the need for such wild exaggeration? Where have I vilified ALL witnesses?
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Firstly Martin Smith agreed with his claim to be 80% sure it was Gerry.
Yvonne Martin's evidence wasn't dismissed. It was simply thought nothing useful could be gleaned from it which would to the investigation forward.
If you were not there how can you have any idea which one of the Gaspar's starement is the most accurate ?
And there is not one independent witness starement that puts Gerry inthe tapas bar just before Kate's alert.
Over to you.
1. There is no accounting for your misinterpretation of Ferria's dismissal of YM's statement.
2. There are certain details of Mrs G's statement as we read it that are incongruous and contradictory (and no, I shan't go into details) and the statement has Mrs G giving reign to free imagination with no factually based observation to substantiate which she (apparently?!) imagined.
3. We have discussed your ignorance of what an independent witness is over and over. I don't think you will ever get it.
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Why the need for such wild exaggeration? Where have I vilified ALL witnesses?
Only the dossier question was aimed at you.. do you dislike those people as you do anonymous letter writers?
The second part was in keeping with the topic not aimed at you specifically.
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Oh it was the net curtains that were 'whooshing'...OK I tried that at home. Not a sound. no whooshing.
Furthermore, there were heavy floor length blue curtains in front of the white net ones.
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Furthermore, there were heavy floor length blue curtains in front of the white net ones.
Yes zoom in and the blue curtain is also raised!
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Furthermore, there were heavy floor length blue curtains in front of the white net ones.
Which were open though. No wind, no whoosh, no slamming doors;
At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
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Firstly Martin Smith agreed with his claim to be 80% sure it was Gerry.
Yvonne Smith's evidence wasn't dismissed. It was simply thought nothing useful could be gleaned from it which would to the investigation forward.
If you were not there how can you have any idea which one of the Gaspar's starement is the most accurate ?
And there is not one independent witness starement that puts Gerry inthe tapas bar just before Kate's alert.
Over to you.
The waiter stated all of the Tapas friends were seated at the table when he took the orders for dinner.
He served all the dinners apart from one.
When the alert was raised, Kate came back and said 'Gerry Madeleine's gone' or similar, if Gerry wasn't there then who was she talking to?
The waiter said when they all left all the dinners had been eaten apart from a piece of steak left on one plate.
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Only the dossier question was aimed at you.. do you dislike those people as you do anonymous letter writers?
The second part was in keeping with the topic not aimed at you specifically.
I can understand why the compilers would not want to be identified. But I also assume they did identify themselves to the police.
Are you willing to identify yourself with your own personal details on here - or in fact anywhere publicly on the internet that's connected to the McCann case? If the answer is 'No' then you should need no further explanation.
However, with regard to Yvonne Martin's decision to write an anonymous letter. What dangers would identifying herself have posed?
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I have no idea. It was up to the PJ to verify and cross-check.
Mrs Fenn's testimony, for example, could have been important and shouldn't have been that difficult to verify and cross-check, but it doesn't seem to have been. A bit late now.
Pamela Fenn's statement is dated 20 Aug 2007. How does one verify a crying incident from 1 May 2007 nearly 4 months later?
This aspect was followed up in Rachael Oldfield's rog statement. She was in 5B looking after a sick child on 1 May 2007. Did she hear crying, she was asked. Her reply was that that she had gone to bed around 9 PM and did not hear crying.
You can still cross-check on this story today. Kate McCann's phone records show that she was busy answering her phone on 1 May 2007, after leaving the Tapas, and somewhat earlier than the crying incident, so if Madeleine cried that night for 75 mins, Kate is one heartless bitch.
Tweak Mrs Fenn's statement to 2nd May 2007, and everything fits. Kate's book says Madeleine put it as that night. I believe some of the other rogs cover Madeleine's comment re crying on 2nd May. And 2nd May was the stop-out night, as attested by all and sundry. (OK by quite a few people!) The phone records support this (but do not prove it).
Let me see - what are the options?
Pamela Fenn was talking tosh. That does not seem right as statements and Kate's book alike refer to a crying incident.
It happened, and it happened on 1st May. Kate's phone record disagrees. Rachael Oldfield might have slept well. Mrs Fenn was right. So Kate is cruel beyond belief.
It happened, but on 2 May. So Pamela Fenn was one day out 4 months later. The phone records match. There was no sick child right next to 5A. The overall timings match the T9 statements, and the waiters serving them. And Kate has Madeleine saying it the next morning. (By the way, the Pamela Fenn info surfaced quite some time before her statement date.)
Note that if Madeleine cried for an extended period, whether it was 1st May, or 2nd May, then it does not paint the McCanns as caring parents running frequent checks.
In fact, the whole 'frequent checks' reported by the T9 simply falls over. How can you visit 5B, frequently, and not hear kids in 5A crying?
Having dug that lot out of the files, let me return to my original question. How would the PJ have verified that in Aug 2007? I can guess at it, but neither the phone records, Mrs Fenn's statement, Kate's book, or the rog statements prove what happened.
For that, I would need an independent witness who heard the crying, remembers the date, remembers the length of crying, and can locate it to 5A or nearby. Or one who can, unequivocally, trash the crying incident.
The reality is we have real life witnesses. And quite a lot of obfuscation on top.
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Pamela Fenn's statement is dated 20 Aug 2007. How does one verify a crying incident from 1 May 2007 nearly 4 months later?
This aspect was followed up in Rachael Oldfield's rog statement. She was in 5B looking after a sick child on 1 May 2007. Did she hear crying, she was asked. Her reply was that that she had gone to bed around 9 PM and did not hear crying.
You can still cross-check on this story today. Kate McCann's phone records show that she was busy answering her phone on 1 May 2007, after leaving the Tapas, and somewhat earlier than the crying incident, so if Madeleine cried that night for 75 mins, Kate is one heartless bitch.
Tweak Mrs Fenn's statement to 2nd May 2007, and everything fits. Kate's book says Madeleine put it as that night. I believe some of the other rogs cover Madeleine's comment re crying on 2nd May. And 2nd May was the stop-out night, as attested by all and sundry. (OK by quite a few people!) The phone records support this (but do not prove it).
Let me see - what are the options?
Pamela Fenn was talking tosh. That does not seem right as statements and Kate's book alike refer to a crying incident.
It happened, and it happened on 1st May. Kate's phone record disagrees. Rachael Oldfield might have slept well. Mrs Fenn was right. So Kate is cruel beyond belief.
It happened, but on 2 May. So Pamela Fenn was one day out 4 months later. The phone records match. There was no sick child right next to 5A. The overall timings match the T9 statements, and the waiters serving them. And Kate has Madeleine saying it the next morning. (By the way, the Pamela Fenn info surfaced quite some time before her statement date.)
Note that if Madeleine cried for an extended period, whether it was 1st May, or 2nd May, then it does not paint the McCanns as caring parents running frequent checks.
In fact, the whole 'frequent checks' reported by the T9 simply falls over. How can you visit 5B, frequently, and not hear kids in 5A crying?
Having dug that lot out of the files, let me return to my original question. How would the PJ have verified that in Aug 2007? I can guess at it, but neither the phone records, Mrs Fenn's statement, Kate's book, or the rog statements prove what happened.
For that, I would need an independent witness who heard the crying, remembers the date, remembers the length of crying, and can locate it to 5A or nearby. Or one who can, unequivocally, trash the crying incident.
The reality is we have real life witnesses. And quite a lot of obfuscation on top.
No it doesn't all fit if you change the crying incident to the 2nd of May, Kate spent the night in with the children on the 2nd.
Children get days mixed up, she probably meant as I have stated earlier the crying on the 1st of May when Amelie was crying and woke Sean and Madeleine, but it was later than Mrs. Fenn said in her statement, I think she could have got the timing wrong.
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The waiter stated all of the Tapas friends were seated at the table when he took the orders for dinner.
He served all the dinners apart from one.
When the alert was raised, Kate came back and said 'Gerry Madeleine's gone' or similar, if Gerry wasn't there then who was she talking to?
The waiter said when they all left all the dinners had been eaten apart from a piece of steak left on one plate.
This waiter or another?
He remembers there being about 9 people in total. He states that he received the food orders from the group.
Later, between 22.00 and 22.30, when the witness was in the kitchen, he was informed by a colleague that in the meantime a client had entered the restaurant shouting and that afterwards the whole English had left in a panic. The witness' colleague told him that this individual had said that a child had disappeared. A few minutes later the witness noticed great agitation, with many people everywhere searching for the child.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAQUIM-J-M-BAPTISTA.htm
He also said this during an informal discussion with the PJ;
The first to leave was about 40/45 years old (tall, skinny, white complexion, with large [a full head of] hair of color gray) and the period of his absence was about 15 minutes, being that they had to [re-]heat his food, which had cooled;
- The second to leave (about 40/45 years of age, having the physical characteristics of the first, but having less bulky hair) did so for about 30 minutes, and that shortly after he returned, all left the table, except for an elderly person, who told him that a child had disappeared, the daughter of a member of the group, due to which he thought that the second person to leave could have been the father of the child;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS-EMPLOYEES.htm
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This waiter or another?
He remembers there being about 9 people in total. He states that he received the food orders from the group.
Later, between 22.00 and 22.30, when the witness was in the kitchen, he was informed by a colleague that in the meantime a client had entered the restaurant shouting and that afterwards the whole English had left in a panic. The witness' colleague told him that this individual had said that a child had disappeared. A few minutes later the witness noticed great agitation, with many people everywhere searching for the child.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAQUIM-J-M-BAPTISTA.htm
He also said this during an informal discussion with the PJ;
The first to leave was about 40/45 years old (tall, skinny, white complexion, with large [a full head of] hair of color gray) and the period of his absence was about 15 minutes, being that they had to [re-]heat his food, which had cooled;
- The second to leave (about 40/45 years of age, having the physical characteristics of the first, but having less bulky hair) did so for about 30 minutes, and that shortly after he returned, all left the table, except for an elderly person, who told him that a child had disappeared, the daughter of a member of the group, due to which he thought that the second person to leave could have been the father of the child;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS-EMPLOYEES.htm
The waiter who took the order for dinner stated that the whole group was sat at the table when he took the order.
The only meal he held back was the steak as Russell had gone to his apartment when Jane came back. When they all left the table all the meals had been eater apart from some steak, Russell hadn't had time to eat all of his.
Dianne Webster stated in her statement that Kate came screaming back to the table and said 'Gerry Madeleine's gone' now unless it had been agreed that Dianne said that in her statement, and that she was in on some sort of plan, can't think for one moment why anyone of them would be, then Kate was talking to Gerry.
edited to change Matthew to Russell.
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The waiter who took the order for dinner stated that the whole group was sat at the table when he took the order.
The only meal he held back was the steak as Russell had gone to his apartment when Jane came back. When they all left the table all the meals had been eater apart from some steak, Russell hadn't had time to eat all of his.
Dianne Webster stated in her statement that Kate came screaming back to the table and said 'Gerry Madeleine's gone' now unless it had been agreed that Dianne said that in her statement, and that she was in on some sort of plan, can't think for one moment why anyone of them would be, then Kate was talking to Gerry.
edited to change Matthew to Russell.
Sorry. Which waiter? Name? Statement link? The one I quoted said he took the orders.
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No it doesn't all fit if you change the crying incident to the 2nd of May, Kate spent the night in with the children on the 2nd.
Children get days mixed up, she probably meant as I have stated earlier the crying on the 1st of May when Amelie was crying and woke Sean and Madeleine, but it was later than Mrs. Fenn said in her statement, I think she could have got the timing wrong.
What? Kate spent the night in with the children on the 2nd. Where does this come from?
Gerry went home (late) before Kate. Kate arrived (even later) and slept in the spare bed in the children's bedroom.
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Sorry. Which waiter? Name? Statement link? The one I quoted said he took the orders.
Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira saw Madeleines parents both arrive for dinner at 8.45pm and this corroborates Gerry himself when he stated that he and Kate left their apartment at 8.35pm
Ricardo recalls that only one of the Tapas 9 had his meal held back and this is something that a waiter never gets wrong. That person was Russell O'Brien who was on bedroom duty looking after his ill daughter until relieved by partner Jane tanner at 9.40. Ricardo confirms his return to the table at 9.45pm.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
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Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira saw Madeleines parents both arrive for dinner at 8.45pm and this corroborates Gerry himself when he stated that he and Kate left their apartment at 8.35pm
Ricardo recalls that only one of the Tapas 9 had his meal held back and this is something that a waiter never gets wrong. That person was Russell O'Brien who was on bedroom duty looking after his ill daughter until relieved by partner Jane tanner at 9.40. Ricardo confirms his return to the table at 9.45pm.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
Seems a bit of a mish mash of half remembered details and while the waiter claims one of the group returned about 9.45 he doesn't specify who.
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Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira saw Madeleines parents both arrive for dinner at 8.45pm and this corroborates Gerry himself when he stated that he and Kate left their apartment at 8.35pm
Ricardo recalls that only one of the Tapas 9 had his meal held back and this is something that a waiter never gets wrong. That person was Russell O'Brien who was on bedroom duty looking after his ill daughter until relieved by partner Jane tanner at 9.40. Ricardo confirms his return to the table at 9.45pm.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
He also says;
When asked, he says that he does not remember whether the parents arrived together or whether they were the first or last to arrive at the table.
When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45.
When asked, he says that he does not remember anyone having been absent from the table for a few instants.
Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry.
The witness was asked to keep Russell?s meal warm. After a certain amount of time (he is not able to be exact), he was asked to serve Russell, who had returned to the table. He remembers that the rest of the group had practically finished their main courses. Asked if he remembers having seen all the elements of the group at this time, he cannot remember exactly. He also cannot state the length of time Russell was away from the table. The witness states that he had already served all the clients of the bar and for this reason, believes that Russell was away for some time.
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Whooshing like this, when Rebelo opened window
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/sun-30-10-7-pr2.JPG)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/sun-30-10-7-pr3.JPG)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/sun-30-10-7-pr4.JPG)
(http://sosmaddie.blogs.dhnet.be/media/02/00/a7d9d28fa19c611b95e249dad1b6ef00.png)
I can see no nets on 3rd May 2007;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_16_small1.jpg
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Any word, yet, on who commented on Gerry's absence from the restaurant at the point of Kate's alert
(if, indeed, he wasn't there)?
An extra ordinary omission that no one should comment (if he wasn't there).
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Any word, yet, on who commented on Gerry's absence from the restaurant at the point of Kate's alert
(if, indeed, he wasn't there)?
An extra ordinary omission that no one should comment (if he wasn't there).
He was at the table at 10.13 when, according to him, Kate raised the alarm just not the minutes before.
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He also says;
When asked, he says that he does not remember whether the parents arrived together or whether they were the first or last to arrive at the table.
When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45.
When asked, he says that he does not remember anyone having been absent from the table for a few instants.
Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry.
The witness was asked to keep Russell?s meal warm. After a certain amount of time (he is not able to be exact), he was asked to serve Russell, who had returned to the table. He remembers that the rest of the group had practically finished their main courses. Asked if he remembers having seen all the elements of the group at this time, he cannot remember exactly. He also cannot state the length of time Russell was away from the table. The witness states that he had already served all the clients of the bar and for this reason, believes that Russell was away for some time.
Oh dear another contradictory statement!
Clarifies that on that night when he took the dinner orders, the entire group was seated. He remembers that there were nine adults? four men and five women. He did not notice any strange behaviour on their part.
When asked, he says that he remembers that it was usual during dinner for one or two members of the group to leave the table for about 10 or 15 minutes and given the fact that on various occasions he saw walkie talkies on the table, he supposed that they went to check on their children who were in their respective rooms.
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I can see no nets on 3rd May 2007;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_16_small1.jpg
Funny that. I do, pushed back.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2313.jpg)
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Correct! I didn't find the right pic. 8((()*/
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Pamela Fenn's statement is dated 20 Aug 2007. How does one verify a crying incident from 1 May 2007 nearly 4 months later?
This aspect was followed up in Rachael Oldfield's rog statement. She was in 5B looking after a sick child on 1 May 2007. Did she hear crying, she was asked. Her reply was that that she had gone to bed around 9 PM and did not hear crying.
You can still cross-check on this story today. Kate McCann's phone records show that she was busy answering her phone on 1 May 2007, after leaving the Tapas, and somewhat earlier than the crying incident, so if Madeleine cried that night for 75 mins, Kate is one heartless bitch.
Tweak Mrs Fenn's statement to 2nd May 2007, and everything fits. Kate's book says Madeleine put it as that night. I believe some of the other rogs cover Madeleine's comment re crying on 2nd May. And 2nd May was the stop-out night, as attested by all and sundry. (OK by quite a few people!) The phone records support this (but do not prove it).
Let me see - what are the options?
Pamela Fenn was talking tosh. That does not seem right as statements and Kate's book alike refer to a crying incident.
It happened, and it happened on 1st May. Kate's phone record disagrees. Rachael Oldfield might have slept well. Mrs Fenn was right. So Kate is cruel beyond belief.
It happened, but on 2 May. So Pamela Fenn was one day out 4 months later. The phone records match. There was no sick child right next to 5A. The overall timings match the T9 statements, and the waiters serving them. And Kate has Madeleine saying it the next morning. (By the way, the Pamela Fenn info surfaced quite some time before her statement date.)
Note that if Madeleine cried for an extended period, whether it was 1st May, or 2nd May, then it does not paint the McCanns as caring parents running frequent checks.
In fact, the whole 'frequent checks' reported by the T9 simply falls over. How can you visit 5B, frequently, and not hear kids in 5A crying?
Having dug that lot out of the files, let me return to my original question. How would the PJ have verified that in Aug 2007? I can guess at it, but neither the phone records, Mrs Fenn's statement, Kate's book, or the rog statements prove what happened.
For that, I would need an independent witness who heard the crying, remembers the date, remembers the length of crying, and can locate it to 5A or nearby. Or one who can, unequivocally, trash the crying incident.
The reality is we have real life witnesses. And quite a lot of obfuscation on top.
Please get your facts right. Rachel stayed in on Wed 2nd not Tue when Pamela Fenn heard crying below her. Rachel didn't hear Maddy and Seany crying that night and her room was next door to the kids room.
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He was at the table at 10.13 when, according to him, Kate raised the alarm just not the minutes before.
So, the Smith sighting at just about 10.00 (with the man the Smiths saw headed for the beach) and Kate's alert, just about the same time with Gerry at the table.
Seems as if Joao Carlos called it just about right to say in his report that Gerry was in the restaurant at the time of the Smith sighting.
— Around 22H00, they left Kelly's Bar. The group headed, on foot, for their apartment.
— Questioned, she responds that she knows the time that they left because her father and her brother decided to leave early that night. There were two reasons for this: one was the fact that her sister-in-law was not feeling very well and the other was because her brother, sister-in-law, nephew and son of her sister-in-law finished their holiday the next day and had to catch the morning flight returning to Ireland.
— Upon leaving the bar, they turned right and headed along the road for 40/50 metres. At this point, they again turned to the right and ascended a small street with stairs that give access to Rua 25 de Abril. As they were a large group (four adults and five children) they travelled apart from each other along the street with some more to the front and the others more behind. She does not remember how they were divided [who was where].
— The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres.
Aofie Smith
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So, the Smith sighting at just about 10.00 (with the man the Smiths saw headed for the beach) and Kate's alert, just about the same time with Gerry at the table.
Seems as if Joao Carlos called it just about right to say in his report that Gerry was in the restaurant at the time of the Smith sighting.
Where was Maddy at 9:55? In the apartment or somewhere else? The alarm was raised before 10 going from the waiter who served them the steak and his time is the same as Russell's for getting back to the table. Two witnesses saying the same time 9:45. That is good timeline evidence in my book.
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Where was Maddy at 9:55? In the apartment or somewhere else? The alarm was raised before 10 going from the waiter who served them the steak and his time is the same as Russell's for getting back to the table. Two witnesses saying the same time 9:45. That is good timeline evidence in my book.
Kate's alert was around 10.00pm, just about the time of the Smith sighting.
Gerry was in the restaurant at the time of the Smith sighting, just as stated by Joao Carlos in his final report for the PJ
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So, the Smith sighting at just about 10.00 (with the man the Smiths saw headed for the beach) and Kate's alert, just about the same time with Gerry at the table.
Seems as if Joao Carlos called it just about right to say in his report that Gerry was in the restaurant at the time of the Smith sighting.
— Around 22H00, they left Kelly's Bar. The group headed, on foot, for their apartment.
— Questioned, she responds that she knows the time that they left because her father and her brother decided to leave early that night. There were two reasons for this: one was the fact that her sister-in-law was not feeling very well and the other was because her brother, sister-in-law, nephew and son of her sister-in-law finished their holiday the next day and had to catch the morning flight returning to Ireland.
— Upon leaving the bar, they turned right and headed along the road for 40/50 metres. At this point, they again turned to the right and ascended a small street with stairs that give access to Rua 25 de Abril. As they were a large group (four adults and five children) they travelled apart from each other along the street with some more to the front and the others more behind. She does not remember how they were divided [who was where].
— The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres.
Aofie Smith
Being two or three minutes out gives Gerry McCann, by his own estimates, at least 15 minutes from the time he was seen by the Smiths to conceal Madeleine's body and be back at the tapas bar for 10.13, easily done and as Aofie nor anyone else in the group saw the direction in which the individual went his final destination is merely speculation.
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Keep wriggling, Faith.
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Kate's alert was around 10.00pm, just about the time of the Smith sighting.
Gerry was in the restaurant at the time of the Smith sighting, just as stated by Joao Carlos in his final report for the PJ
At least 7 friends alibied him. How was Carlos supposed to prove otherwise ?
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Kate's alert was around 10.00pm, just about the time of the Smith sighting.
Gerry was in the restaurant at the time of the Smith sighting, just as stated by Joao Carlos in his final report for the PJ
Matt said she left at 9:50 and he had a watch. Dianne said Russell only had a few bites of his thin steak when Kate came running. Why would Matt say 9:50 if it was 10pm? Kate wasn't gone long according to the others except for one who said 10 minutes.
p.s. I suspect Matt was exact in his 10 May statement on times because he was accused of abducting Maddy by the PJ on his check.
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Keep wriggling, Faith.
Prove me wrong then ferryman.
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Prove me wrong then ferryman.
I have.
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Matt said she left at 9:50 and he had a watch. Dianne said Russell only had a few bites of his thin steak when Kate came running. Why would Matt say 9:50 if it was 10pm? Kate wasn't gone long according to the others except for one who said 10 minutes.
Who remembers times with absolute precision when you're on holiday?
The ball-park figures indicate accurately enough that Gerry was in the restaurant at the time of Kate's alert.
Remind me, again, of who commented on Gerry's absence from the table if he wasn't there at the time of Kate's alert.
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I have.
You haven't proved where Gerry was 10 to 10.10. 10 minutes &%+((£
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I have.
No you haven't.
Gerry said Kate raised the alarm at 10.13. The Smiths saw Smitman sometime around ten. That gives Gerry, if it was him, about 15 minutes to conceal the body ( plenty of places to be found on route ) and be back at the tapas table for 10.13.
Now prove me wrong.
From Gerry's 10th May statement :
'
----- Half and hour later without anything to signal, it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness '
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You haven't proved where Gerry was 10 to 10.10. 10 minutes &%+((£
Who commented on Gerry's absence from the table if he wasn't there?
If he wasn't there, where is there the witness statement(s) from the files to find him and tell him what had happened, including where he was when found and who found him?
No such commentary.
No doubt because Gerry was at the table at the time of the sighting.
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Who commented on Gerry's absence from the table if he wasn't there?
If he wasn't there, where is there the witness statement(s) from the files to find him and tell him what had happened, including where he was when found and who found him?
No such commentary.
No doubt because Gerry was at the table at the time of the sighting.
Why would anybody comment on Gerry's absence at the time of the Smith sighting ?
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Who commented on Gerry's absence from the table if he wasn't there?
If he wasn't there, where is there the witness statement(s) from the files to find him and tell him what had happened, including where he was when found and who found him?
No such commentary.
No doubt because Gerry was at the table at the time of the sighting.
If Gerry had not been seated at the table when Kate raised the alarm it would most certainly have been noted.
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If Gerry had not been seated at the table when Kate raised the alarm it would most certainly have been noted.
Indeed Brietta but the alarm at 10.13, according to Gerry, is a different event completely from the Smith sighting at 'somewhere around 10'.
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Indeed Brietta but the alarm at 10.13, according to Gerry, is a different event completely from the Smith sighting at 'somewhere around 10'.
Please explain why Gerry (a man you believe to be a compulsive liar) is the only person you believe to be telling the truth about the time the alarm was raised, despite the fact that in so doing he destroys his own alibi?
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Who commented on Gerry's absence from the table if he wasn't there?
If he wasn't there, where is there the witness statement(s) from the files to find him and tell him what had happened, including where he was when found and who found him?
No such commentary.
No doubt because Gerry was at the table at the time of the sighting.
Nobody was at the table at 10. That's when Dianne left it. The others were out searching.
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Please explain why Gerry (a man you believe to be a compulsive liar) is the only person you believe to be telling the truth about the time the alarm was raised, despite the fact that in so doing he destroys his own alibi?
Trying to get the perfect alibi because if he was Smithman he knew he's been seen by a big group of eye witnesses so the timeline was crucial.
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Trying to get the perfect alibi because if he was Smithman he knew he's been seen by a big group of eye witnesses so the timeline was crucial.
Is your name Faithlilly? Do you believe that Kate raised the alarm at 10.13 pm?
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Please explain why Gerry (a man you believe to be a compulsive liar) is the only person you believe to be telling the truth about the time the alarm was raised, despite the fact that in so doing he destroys his own alibi?
And explain why you believe everything Gerry says except this which, although he had a week to think about it, you believe he is 'mistaken' in ?
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At least 7 friends alibied him. How was Carlos supposed to prove otherwise ?
Is it your belief that these seven friends are all lying?
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And explain why you believe everything Gerry says except this which, although he had a week to think about it, you believe he is 'mistaken' in ?
I don't believe everything Gerry says to be correct. I'm sure he misremembered some details and was not 100% accurate. Now back to you. Why do you believe he was telling the truth on this occasion, thus contradicting the seven pals you believe provided him with an alibi? Give me a plausible, logical explanation.
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Is your name Faithlilly? Do you believe that Kate raised the alarm at 10.13 pm?
Kate raised the alarm at 9:54/55.
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Is it your belief that these seven friends are all lying?
They were asked whether Gerry was at the table at the time of the alarm so no I don't think they were lying.
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Kate raised the alarm at 9:54/55.
Then why are you choosing me to debate with and not Faithlilly who has a very different theory to yours about this aspect of the case?
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They were asked whether Gerry was at the table at the time of the alarm so no I don't think they were lying.
And how many of them said the time was 10.13pm?
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They were asked whether Gerry was at the table at the time of the alarm so no I don't think they were lying.
Exactly Gerry was at the table when the alarm was raised but 10:03-13 will be another revelation moment to SY.
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And how many of them said the time was 10.13pm?
I think the consensus was around ten.
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I think the consensus was around ten.
So all seven were wrong and Gerry, who could have cemented his alibi for the Smith sighting by simply agreeing with them decided to dice with death and give a much later time because...?
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There were three posters on here yesterday who were convinced I had said I knew Fiona Payne...all three were wrong...witness statements can be unreliable
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There were three posters on here yesterday who were convinced I had said I knew Fiona Payne...all three were wrong...witness statements can be unreliable
All three were right.
Your denials merely revealed exactly what you are, and what value any of your posts have.
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So all seven were wrong and Gerry, who could have cemented his alibi for the Smith sighting by simply agreeing with them decided to dice with death and give a much later time because...?
19.13 is 'around 10'.
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19.13 is 'around 10'.
To you it probably is, but to me its around quarter past seven in the evening... @)(++(*
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19.13 is 'around 10'.
Assuming you meant 22.13 (24 hour clock not being one of your stronger points) it still makes no sense at all for Gerry not to agree with the others that the alarm was raised at 10pm the time he allegedly knew he was seen by the Smiths. Wriggle your way out of that one, dearest Lil.
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Assuming you meant 22.13 (24 hour clock not being one of your stronger points) it still makes no sense at all for Gerry not to agree with the others that the alarm was raised at 10pm the time he allegedly knew he was seen by the Smiths. Wriggle your way out of that one, dearest Lil.
My you are tetchy today Alfie ! Did you run out of coco pops ?
Anyhoooo back to the subject in hand. It makes no sense for Gerry to say he was on the other side of the road during he and Jez's chat when he knew Jez and Tanner would say differently but he still did it.
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My you are tetchy today Alfie ! Did you run out of coco pops ?
Anyhoooo back to the subject in hand. It makes no sense for Gerry to say he was on the other side of the road during he and Jez's chat when he knew Jez and Tanner would say differently but he still did it.
So you agree it makes no sense for Gerry to destroy his alibi, oh well that's progress of sorts I suppose.
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So you agree it makes no sense for Gerry to destroy his alibi, oh well that's progress of sorts I suppose.
His alibi for the Smith sighting was Tannerman.
Perhaps that's why they are still pushing him on their campaign pages and not Smithman.
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His alibi for the Smith sighting was Tannerman.
Perhaps that's why they are still pushing him on their campaign pages and not Smithman.
It's all very simple. Tannerman was made out to be Smithman in the book to rule Gerry out. Tannerman is still on their website and Smithman isn't - efits that were hidden by the McCanns. Everything connects to Smithman! And he gave the time away. Hook, line and sinker.
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His alibi for the Smith sighting was Tannerman.
Perhaps that's why they are still pushing him on their campaign pages and not Smithman.
So you keep saying however that STILL doesn't explain why he wouldn't agree with the rest of the group that the alarm was raised at 10pm thus giving him a cast-iron alibi, instead of a whole 15 minutes in which to be allegedly disposing of a body. Give me one good reason why he would choose this of all things to tell the truth about. I await your answer with great interest.
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You would have to be daft as a brush to get others involved and Smithman is not stupid but mistakes are always made. You can't fake what happened once the alarm was raised. They had split up to search for Madeleine and Smithman found her and was now on his one man mission! The timeline is KEY!
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So you keep saying however that STILL doesn't explain why he wouldn't agree with the rest of the group that the alarm was raised at 10pm thus giving him a cast-iron alibi, instead of a whole 15 minutes in which to be allegedly disposing of a body. Give me one good reason why he would choose this of all things to tell the truth about. I await your answer with great interest.
In their first starements only one of the group David Payne actually gives a vague time for the alarm. He says Kate left the table 'towards 10pm' and returned in 'less than 5 minutes' contradicting Gerry who ( paraphrasing) said Kate was gone so long he was beginning to wonder where she was.
Both Dianne Webster and Fiona Payne give no time for either Kate's departure from the table or her return and Matthew Oldfield and his wife say Kate left the table at 'around 10pm' but don't specify the time of the alert.
Jane Tanner was in her apartment.
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In their first starements only one of the group David Payne actually gives a vague time for the alarm. He says Kate left the table 'towards 10pm' and returned in 'less than 5 minutes' contradicting Gerry who ( paraphrasing) said Kate was gone so long he was beginning to wonder where she was.
Both Dianne Webster and Fiona Payne give no time for either Kate's departure from the table or her return and Matthew Oldfield and his wife say Kate left the table at 'around 10pm' but don't specify the time of the alert.
Jane Tanner was in her apartment.
So basically you're saying that only one witness puts the time of the alarm at around 10pm and yet this is the time that both police forces and the Final Report agree is the likely time of Kate's alert? Why did they not put the time of the alert at around 10.10pm or 10.15pm which would have been much closer to Gerry's stated time, and also given them (the police) the perfect excuse to go after Gerry as Smithman?
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In their first starements only one of the group David Payne actually gives a vague time for the alarm. He says Kate left the table 'towards 10pm' and returned in 'less than 5 minutes' contradicting Gerry who ( paraphrasing) said Kate was gone so long he was beginning to wonder where she was.
Both Dianne Webster and Fiona Payne give no time for either Kate's departure from the table or her return and Matthew Oldfield and his wife say Kate left the table at 'around 10pm' but don't specify the time of the alert.
Jane Tanner was in her apartment.
How do you explain this waiter's statement?
Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira
Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry. In any case, he remembers having heard shouts from the direction of Madeleine’s parents’ apartment.
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How do you explain this witness statement from Vitor Manuel dos Santos?
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
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So basically you're saying that only one witness puts the time of the alarm at around 10pm and yet this is the time that both police forces and the Final Report agree is the likely time of Kate's alert? Why did they not put the time of the alert at around 10.10pm or 10.15pm which would have been much closer to Gerry's stated time, and also given them (the police) the perfect excuse to go after Gerry as Smithman?
In the PJ's Final report the time was put at nearer 10.10 :
'(later on it was verified that the detection and the subsequent alarm of the same, in reality happened, between 22H00 and 22H10 of the day 3 of May of 2007,'
The archiving report while saying that Kate left to do her check 'around 10pm' doesn't state AFAIKS when the alarm was actually raised.
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How do you explain this witness statement from Vitor Manuel dos Santos?
That is impossible. Recorded phone times prove it.
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That is impossible. Recorded phone times prove it.
Good to have some definitive times that can't be disputed.
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How do you explain this witness statement from George Crossland?
That at around 22h15 of 03 May 2007, he was alone in his residence, situated in Lagos, and was contacted by John Hill, Mark Warner manager who works in the Ocean Club establishment and who informed him that a child, a minor, of the feminine sex, who was staying with her family in that resort, had disappeared and that he was going to initiate the “procedure for missing child” (sic);
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That is impossible. Recorded phone times prove it.
What time was it then?
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Any explanation for this witness statement?
Arlindo Epifanio Goncalves Fernandes Peleja
Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
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And this one?
JERONIMO RODRIGUES SALCEDAS
On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues—Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: “They’ve left you alone?” She responded more of less with these words: “No, they went to see if the little girl was there.” I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleine’s father, running to the pool and to the children’s play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.
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How about this one?
Nuno Filipe Guerreiro Da Conceicao
Questioned, he states that, last Thursday, he was off duty but was called by the reception and went to the resort around 020H30 to open a door that had problems. After completing the work for which he was called, which took him about 15 minutes, he left for his residence, and was again contacted, at around 22H15 to ask him if there were torch/flash lights that could be used to help look for a child that had gone missing. The deponent responded that there weren’t any and was not called again that night.
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What time was it then?
This phone call was made to the deponent's mobile phone at about 22.28 on 03-05-2007.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_HILL.htm
That's the first call he received informing him about the disappearance so any times before that concerning him is IMPOSSIBLE!
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How about this one?
Emma Louise KNIGHT
On the night of 3rd May, after having finished work, I planned to meet a group of colleagues at 22.30 to go out. At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the Crèche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the “Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child”.
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It seems to me that irrespective of what times witnesses give in their statements, the actual times can be determined from the phone records, so the police will know the true times.
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How about this one?
Emma Louise KNIGHT
Yes that is correct 4 minutes after 10:13. A parent came to the night creche and informed them she heard voices calling for Maddy outside on her way there. The night creche is not very close to the tapas bar. So the alarm was raised before 10:13 that's for certain!
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This one's nice and early;
That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called "Maddie" has disappeared, and that the girl's parents needed help in looking for her.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
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How about this one?
Emma Louise KNIGHT
Yup, a reconstitution would have been really useful
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Yes that is correct 4 minutes after 10:13. A parent came to the night creche and informed them she heard voices calling for Maddy outside on her way there. The night creche is not very close to the tapas bar. So the alarm was raised before 10:13 that's for certain!
Perhaps you could let Faithlilly know that? She is absolutely certain that the alarm was raised at 10,13pm, because she believes Gerry told the truth about the time in his statement, only the once mind!
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It seems to me that irrespective of what times witnesses give in their statements, the actual times can be determined from the phone records, so the police will know the true times.
The problem being that the first call to the GNR was made at 22.41, way after the alarm was raised.
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So now we have finally established that the alarm was raised at around 10pm, let us never again fall into the trap of pretending it happened at any other time, thanks. %£&)**#
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Given that we have now established that the alarm was raised at around 10pm Faithlilly, and given that you believe that Gerry was sat at the Tapas table when the alarm was raised, perhaps you can now explain how Gerry was able to also be Smithman? &%+((£
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The problem being that the first call to the GNR was made at 22.41, way after the alarm was raised.
So perhaps that call was delayed in the hope that she would be found. It would certainly be interesting to know who actually instructed the receptionist to make that call at at time.
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So perhaps that call was delayed in the hope that she would be found. It would certainly be interesting to know who actually instructed the receptionist to make that call at at time.
I think it was John Hill.
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So perhaps that call was delayed in the hope that she would be found. It would certainly be interesting to know who actually instructed the receptionist to make that call at at time.
Manager John Hill did. He was in charge.
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Manager John Hill did. He was in charge.
So he held back from calling the police for half an hour or so after the alarm was raised.
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So he held back from calling the police for half an hour or so after the alarm was raised.
Mark Warners Missing Child Protocol in action presumably.
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So now we have finally established that the alarm was raised at around 10pm, let us never again fall into the trap of pretending it happened at any other time, thanks. %£&)**#
10pm at the very latest but it was before that going from Matt, Russell and the serving steak waiter statements. The timeline with Gerald written on his completely wrong. He checked at 9:15 and Matt's 9:30 check isn't there! Matt said Gerry went as soon as he came back at around 9 and that is backed up by Jane, Fiona etc. He later said 9:04 - an exact time so I better thank him for telling me he was away from the table until 9:15 backed up by the watching footy comments at the table before Jane even left 8(>((
Do SY think the same as me and Kate left to check at around 9:50 ?
"the last at 21:51, when Kate, Madeleine's mother goes to the apartment, before alerting to the disappearance."
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10pm at the very latest but it was before that going from Matt, Russell and the serving steak waiter statements. The timeline with Gerald written on his completely wrong. He checked at 9:15 and Matt's 9:30 check isn't there! Matt said Gerry went as soon as he came back at around 9 and that is backed up by Jane, Fiona etc. He later said 9:04 - an exact time so I better thank him for telling me he was away from the table until 9:15 backed up by the watching footy comments at the table before Jane even left 8(>((
Do SY think the same as me and Kate left to check at around 9:50 ?
"the last at 21:51, when Kate, Madeleine's mother goes to the apartment, before alerting to the disappearance."
Once again, perhaps you could debate this point with Faithlilly who is adamant the alarm was raised at 10.13pm. Perhaps she'll listen to you cos she sure as hell ain't interested in what I have to say on the matter! @)(++(*
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So he held back from calling the police for half an hour or so after the alarm was raised.
He wasn't informed about the disappearance until 10:28 and went straight to the apartment. Then he and Gerry went to the reception to call the police at 10:41. Matt was sent to go and call the police at around 10:10 after they had searched down as far as Baptista supermarket. They had been searching for at least 10 minutes before Matt was sent by Fiona to call the police.
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Once again, perhaps you could debate this point with Faithlilly who is adamant the alarm was raised at 10.13pm. Perhaps she'll listen to you cos she sure as hell ain't interested in what I have to say on the matter! @)(++(*
I haven't read that she said that. Gerry was at the table when the alarm was raised by Kate but the important point is that Smithman was seen after that and not far away. Smithman was running remember not walking. The child was hidden.
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10pm at the very latest but it was before that going from Matt, Russell and the serving steak waiter statements. The timeline with Gerald written on his completely wrong. He checked at 9:15 and Matt's 9:30 check isn't there! Matt said Gerry went as soon as he came back at around 9 and that is backed up by Jane, Fiona etc. He later said 9:04 - an exact time so I better thank him for telling me he was away from the table until 9:15 backed up by the watching footy comments at the table before Jane even left 8(>((
Do SY think the same as me and Kate left to check at around 9:50 ?
"the last at 21:51, when Kate, Madeleine's mother goes to the apartment, before alerting to the disappearance."
What time did this happen?
On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues—Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: “They’ve left you alone?” She responded more of less with these words: “No, they went to see if the little girl was there.” I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleine’s father, running to the pool and to the children’s play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.
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I haven't read that she said that. Gerry was at the table when the alarm was raised by Kate but the important point is that Smithman was seen after that and not far away. Smithman was running remember not walking. The child was hidden.
Well she has several times I can assure you. Maybe you don't bother reading her posts?
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What time did this happen?
9:56-8. Gerry never said he was there at all. Others said it was DP and Matt searching the pool, tennis courts. After searching DP told Dianne to leave.
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9:55
So in 4 minutes Kate has got up, gone to the apartment, looked for Madeleine, not been able to find her, come rushing back to the Tapas Restaurant, everyone except DW has got up and gone back to the apartment, Gerry has taken part in a cursory search of the apartment (fiddled with shutter?) then rushed back to the Tapas Restaurant? And all in 4 minutes? Are you sure...? &%+((£
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9:56-8. Gerry never said he was there at all. Others said it was DP and Matt searching the pool, tennis courts. After searching DP told Dianne to leave.
LOL, I see you've changed your timing. What did DW have to say about this incident? Didn't she say it was Gerry?
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LOL, I see you've changed your timing. What did DW have to say about this incident? Didn't she say it was Gerry?
This is what Gerry said as an arguido:
When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way.
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom.
Nobody saw him at the main reception. Matt was there and didn't see him. Matt went to call the police. So Gerry is saying he is somewhere where he wasn't seen! He later came with Manager John Hill when the call was made at 10:41.
Conclusion - he can't be ruled out as being Smithman.
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This is what Gerry said as an arguido:
When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way.
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom.
Nobody saw him at the main reception. Matt was there and didn't see him. So Gerry is saying he is somewhere where he wasn't seen! He later came with Manager John Hill when the call was made at 10:41.
Did DW say Gerry came back past the pool area after the alarm was raised or not?
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Did DW say Gerry came back past the pool area after the alarm was raised or not?
I stayed at the table in case Madeleine had wandered off and she might come looking round the restaurant. Err this is when it gets all a bit confusing because I’ve no idea how long I, I stayed there. I don’t, I don’t think it was that long and I know that at one point, again, this wasn’t in my original statement, Dave did come back to the table and say can, can you just go back to the apartment, but all this is very, very, very vague and I know when I left the table I went, I did go into err Kate and Gerry’s err apartment. (DW)
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I stayed at the table in case Madeleine had wandered off and she might come looking round the restaurant. Err this is when it gets all a bit confusing because I’ve no idea how long I, I stayed there. I don’t, I don’t think it was that long and I know that at one point, again, this wasn’t in my original statement, Dave did come back to the table and say can, can you just go back to the apartment, but all this is very, very, very vague and I know when I left the table I went, I did go into err Kate and Gerry’s err apartment. (DW)
The waiter in his statement said he spoke to the man he later knew to be Madeleine's father - do you think DP and GMcC look alike?
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The waiter in his statement said he spoke to the man he later knew to be Madeleine's father - do you think DP and GMcC look alike?
Yes but that could be later. Gerry didn't stay in the apartment when he got back. He was in and out of it going from witness statements. Emma got there at 10:20 and only Kate and Fiona were present at 5A. Gerry was out and about.
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Yes but that could be later. Gerry didn't stay in the apartment when he got back. He was in and out of it going from witness statements. Emma got there at 10:20 and only Kate and Fiona were present at 5A. Gerry was out and about.
If the waiter's statement is correct and he did see Gerry at 9.56 / 9.58 (your timing) then do you concede it is highly unlikely that Gerry was able to be seen by the Smiths less than 5 minutes later carrying a corpse through town?
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Given that we have now established that the alarm was raised at around 10pm Faithlilly, and given that you believe that Gerry was sat at the Tapas table when the alarm was raised, perhaps you can now explain how Gerry was able to also be Smithman? &%+((£
Nope Alfie. Every statement is 'about' or 'around' so nothing definitive.
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Nope Alfie. Every statement is 'about' or 'around' so nothing definitive.
Errr....speak to Pathfinder. He or she has certainly proved it, going by phone records. Tough tomatos, you're theory is in tatters.
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Errr....speak to Pathfinder. He or she has certainly proved it, going by phone records. Tough tomatos, you're theory is in tatters.
So what phone call eliminates 10.13 being the time of the alert ?
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So what phone call eliminates 10.13 being the time of the alert ?
Emma Louise KNIGHT
Quote
On the night of 3rd May, after having finished work, I planned to meet a group of colleagues at 22.30 to go out. At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the Crèche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the “Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child”.
Earlier Pathfinder verified that this was correct. If you dispute this, take it up with him or her.
Pathfinder's response to the above quote:
Yes that is correct 4 minutes after 10:13. A parent came to the night creche and informed them she heard voices calling for Maddy outside on her way there. The night creche is not very close to the tapas bar. So the alarm was raised before 10:13 that's for certain
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I haven't read that she said that. Gerry was at the table when the alarm was raised by Kate but the important point is that Smithman was seen after that and not far away. Smithman was running remember not walking. The child was hidden.
The individual was not described as running ... all three statements reflect that the individual was walking ... why do you feel it necessary to change the words to suit your argument?
When Goncalo Amaral tried to fit the evidence to suit his theory the die was cast as far as finding Madeleine McCann was concerned ... I do wish that those who continue to support his theory would refrain from replicating his error.
Not that it matters now ... but it really did matter then.
**Snip
This individual was walking the downward path ... Martin Smith
(2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres. ... Aoife Smith
he saw an individual carrying a child, who walked normally, with a fairly quick step because he was coming downhill. ... Peter Smith
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm
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Earlier Pathfinder verified that this was correct. If you dispute this, take it up with him or her.
Pathfinder's response to the above quote:
You see there's that little word 'about' again. Three or four minutes either way wouldn't matter to the witness but certainly does in the context of the Smith sighting.
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The individual was not described as running ... all three statements reflect that the individual was walking ... why do you feel it necessary to change the words to suit your argument?
When Goncalo Amaral tried to fit the evidence to suit his theory the die was cast as far as finding Madeleine McCann was concerned ... I do wish that those who continue to support his theory would refrain from replicating his error.
Not that it matters now ... but it really did matter then.
**Snip
This individual was walking the downward path ... Martin Smith
(2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres. ... Aoife Smith
he saw an individual carrying a child, who walked normally, with a fairly quick step because he was coming downhill. ... Peter Smith
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm
Smithman would be running to where the child was hidden and then passed the Smiths carrying her. He had an excuse to run as they were out searching for her and he found her before meeting the Smiths. So yes he quickly walked past them and even quicker when he was by the light passing Aoife.
"The individual's gait was normal, between a fast walk and a run." (AS)
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You see there's that little word 'about' again. Three or four minutes either way wouldn't matter to the witness but certainly does in the context of the Smith sighting.
You and Pathfinder seem reluctant to discuss this directly, very strange. However Pathfinder has led me to believe that phone records exist of the phone call which would confirm the exact time would it not...? &%+((£
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Unfortunately we are not privy to the details of these, but rest assured, the police will be. ?{)(**
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Unfortunately we are not privy to the details of these, but rest assured, the police will be. ?{)(**
Perhaps then that is why, together with the witness testimony of all those who saw Gerry at the table when the alarm was raised, the police were confidently able to rule out Gerry as Smithman. 8((()*/
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You and Pathfinder seem reluctant to discuss this directly, very strange. However Pathfinder has led me to believe that phone records exist of the phone call which would confirm the exact time would it not...? &%+((£
Phone records are a part of it but of course there's no phone record of when Kate was raised the alarm but there are other important details. You start the watch from 9:45 when Russell returned to the table (time confirmed by the waiter who served him his THIN steak) until when Kate left to check. She was not gone longer than 5 minutes. According to her it only took her 15 seconds to fly through the apartment checking for her daughter and then straight out the door. So not a long check by her at all!
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Maybe, though abduction seems to be their remit, rather than anything else. They may be wearing blinkers to achieve this
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So in 4 minutes Kate has got up, gone to the apartment, looked for Madeleine, not been able to find her, come rushing back to the Tapas Restaurant, everyone except DW has got up and gone back to the apartment, Gerry has taken part in a cursory search of the apartment (fiddled with shutter?) then rushed back to the Tapas Restaurant? And all in 4 minutes? Are you sure...? &%+((£
Plenty of time; it was after all, only "like being in the back garden".
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Phone records are a part of it but of course there's no phone record of when Kate was raised the alarm but there are other important details. You start the watch from 9:45 when Russell returned to the table (time confirmed by the waiter who served him his THIN steak) until when Kate left to check. She was not gone longer than 5 minutes. According to her it only took her 15 seconds to fly through the apartment checking for her daughter and then straight out the door. So not a long check by her at all!
Pathfinder, is there a phone record that you can cite which verifies Emma Louise Knight's statement?
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Maybe, though abduction seems to be their remit, rather than anything else. They may be wearing blinkers to achieve this
Tannerman gone and searching for evidence of a hidden body close to the crime scene. You can call Smithman an abductor. That's the only real evidence they have of abduction. A man seen carrying a child away who looked like Maddy and who hasn't been identified 8 years later.
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Pathfinder, is there a phone record that you can cite which verifies Emma Louise Knight's statement?
They don't say 22:17 on statements unless they know the phone record of it. It's easy to get Emma's mobile or John Hill's and get the times. They didn't delete them @)(++(*
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They don't say 22:17 on statements unless they know the phone record of it. It's easy to get Emma's mobile or John Hill's and get the times. They didn't delete them @)(++(*
Who is "they"? Are you saying that when Emma says "about22.17" she actually means "exactly 22.17" because she looked at her phone? Isn't that a bit presumptuous of you? How do you know the clock on her phone was even showing the correct time? You've greatly disappointed me Pathfinder... &%+((£
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Who is "they"? Are you saying that when Emma says "about22.17" she actually means "exactly 22.17" because she looked at her phone? Isn't that a bit presumptuous of you? How do you know the clock on her phone was even showing the correct time? You've greatly disappointed me Pathfinder... &%+((£
The police check it and it is 22:17. How would Emma know the correct time unless her phone is checked for the exact time. Get real Alfie!
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The police check it and it is 22:17. How would Emma know the correct time unless her phone is checked for the exact time. Get real Alfie!
Are you saying the police checked her phone records first and then told her what time to say in her statement? How bizarre!
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Are you saying the police checked her phone records first and then told her what time to say in her statement? How bizarre!
If exact times are down on statements you ain't gonna sign that statement unless you know the times are correct. What do you think the police do? Don't check? They would get the time from her mobile. It's not hard to ask Emma to check her mobile for the call and get the exact time and details before getting her to sign the statement.
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If exact times are down on statements you ain't gonna sign that statement unless you know the times are correct. What do you think the police do? Don't check? They would get the time from her mobile. It's not hard to ask Emma to check her mobile for the call and get the exact time and details before getting her to sign the statement.
So where does that leave Gerry vis-à-vis his exact stated time of 10.13pm as the time the alarm was raised?
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How does he know the time to that degree of precision - watch, phone? How could he be sure of their accuracy?
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How does he know the time to that degree of precision - watch, phone? How could he be sure of their accuracy?
I'm waiting for Pathfinder to tell us. It seems the police tell the witnesses what time to say in their statements. @)(++(*
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No, they would be cross-checking witness times with phone records. Gerry would have no such record, therefore he must have got his oh so precise time from somewhere else.
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No, they would be cross-checking witness times with phone records. Gerry would have no such record, therefore he must have got his oh so precise time from somewhere else.
Do you think he was telling the truth, mistaken or lying?
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Do you think he was telling the truth, mistaken or lying?
Personally I think he was bullshitting and giving a precise time to appear clever.
I suspect he didn't know the exact time to within perhaps 5 minutes.
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Personally I think he was bullshitting and giving a precise time to appear clever.
I suspect he didn't know the exact time to within perhaps 5 minutes.
Of course, it had to be that because Gerry is so vile / evil it could only be bullshitting or lying, nothing so innocent as a mistake, or a genuinely held belief. Silly me!
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There's nothing vile or evil about bullshitting. Its just something some people do it all the time as its second nature to them.
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Of course, it had to be that because Gerry is so vile / evil it could only be bullshitting or lying, nothing so innocent as a mistake, or a genuinely held belief. Silly me!
10:03 was real. That time was on his watch but wait until it's revealed where he was at that exact time.
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There's nothing vile or evil about bullshitting. Its just something some people do it all the time as its second nature to them.
OK, not vile or evil but bloody stupid then?
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10:03 was real. That time was on his watch but wait until it's revealed where he was at that exact time.
10.03? We're talking about 10.13pm in his statement, not 10.03. How come he was allowed to sign his statement with that time on it if the police hadn't previously verified it?
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OK, not vile or evil but bloody stupid then?
You said it, not me @)(++(*
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You said it, not me @)(++(*
OK, let's agree that Gerry's very stupid. How has he gotten away with so much for so long then?
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OK, let's agree that Gerry's very stupid. How has he gotten away with so much for so long then?
Just lucky I guess.
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10.03? We're talking about 10.13pm in his statement, not 10.03. How come he was allowed to sign his statement with that time on it if the police hadn't previously verified it?
He only said 10:03 as an exact time in that statement.
"it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
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Charlotte Pennington who was also on duty at the night creche with Amy Tierney;
On the 3rd of May 2007, around 22H15, the witness was working during "dinner hour", together with her colleagues Jackie and Amy, when an unknown woman came to them indicating that she was a tourist lodged at the complex and asked them if they had heard about a disappearance of a child, whose name she referred to as "Maggie" or "Maddy";
Lyndsay says Amy informed her;
She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared.
Emma Knight ( interviewed in April 2008, so nearly a year later) says Lyndsay informed her;
At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing
According to John Hill Lyndsay phoned him too. after the missing child procedure had been launched;
This phone call was made to the deponent's mobile phone at about 22.28
The deponent went to the main reception to see if the authorities had been alerted,
That takes us close to the time that the GNR were telephoned, and Emma Knight says John Hill organised that;
The hotel manager, John Hill arrived at the location from which the searches were being organised and I can confirm that he called the police.
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He only said 10:03 as an exact time in that statement.
"it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Beg you're pardon, you're right of course. It was 10.03pm. It is Faithlilly who keeps banging on about 10.13pm, not Gerry.
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Beg you're pardon, you're right of course. It was 10.03pm. It is Faithlilly who keeps banging on about 10.13pm, not Gerry.
Gerry said about 10 minutes after she left he was worried and then she returned raising the alarm.
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
Date: 2007/05/09
Witness Statement
Helder Jorge Samaio Luis
Occupation: Receptionist Ocean Club
Has worked at the Ocean Club for almost a year and a half and works as a Receptionist at the main Ocean Club Reception. He doesn't work fixed hours but he always works on the 16.00 to 34.00 shift.
All his work takes place at the main reception.
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
He then contacted the head of reception VÃtor Santos and informed him of the situation.
He remained at the OC reception until 24.00 when he was replaced by a colleague Mr Eliseu.
He then left the OC and went home.
He did not see or hear anything suspicious on 3rd May nor on the previous days.
Reads, signs, ratifies
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This very important witness appears to have been nearly an hour out with his timings
and his account of the phone calls doesn't tally with the official phone records.
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There is one employee who never made a statement and was never called out on 3rd May as far as I can see and that was Donna Hill, John Hill's wife and the one 'responsible' for the creche employees;
we spoke with Mrs Silvia Maria Correia Ramos B., director of maintenance and services for the company "GREENTROUST", which manages the "OCEAN CLUB" company, contactable by mobile phone 964....
Through her, we contacted Donna Louise Rafferty Hill (contactable by mobile phone number 964...) responsible for the crèche employees belonging to the "MARK WARNER" company, who were responsible for Madeleine and the twins for several periods during the day after their arrival in Portugal......The witness is the one responsible for coordination, and who distributed the children between the various girls, allocating each child to one of them.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic116-20.html
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Gerry said about 10 minutes after she left he was worried and then she returned raising the alarm.
Which is a bit late if a parent is telling the nannies at the creche about it at 10.15pm.
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
Date: 2007/05/09
Witness Statement
Helder Jorge Samaio Luis
Occupation: Receptionist Ocean Club
Has worked at the Ocean Club for almost a year and a half and works as a Receptionist at the main Ocean Club Reception. He doesn't work fixed hours but he always works on the 16.00 to 34.00 shift.
All his work takes place at the main reception.
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
He then contacted the head of reception VÃtor Santos and informed him of the situation.
He remained at the OC reception until 24.00 when he was replaced by a colleague Mr Eliseu.
He then left the OC and went home.
He did not see or hear anything suspicious on 3rd May nor on the previous days.
Reads, signs, ratifies
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This very important witness appears to have been nearly an hour out with his timings
and his account of the phone calls doesn't tally with the official phone records.
That is impossible. John Hill wasn't informed about the disappearance until 10:28 and then he made his way to apartment 5A. Gerry went with John Hill to reception and called the police at 10:41 so an hour after his estimate time.
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Which is a bit late if a parent is telling the nannies at the creche about it at 10.15pm.
Charlotte Pennington said it was before 10pm in another interview so I wouldn't go from her account of 10:15. 10:05 seems about right as Jackie said.
Just before 10pm the last mother arrived to collect her child from the creche and mentioned that she had just bumped into a man, who had been shouting a name.
"She didn't get the name, but she said it sounded something like 'Abbey, Gabby or Maddie'. We automatically went into lost-child procedure. In these situations, the first thing we do is investigate the scene.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483715/Kate-McCann-DID-scream-Theyve-taken-claims-new-nanny-witness.html
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
Date: 2007/05/09
Witness Statement
Helder Jorge Samaio Luis
Occupation: Receptionist Ocean Club
Has worked at the Ocean Club for almost a year and a half and works as a Receptionist at the main Ocean Club Reception. He doesn't work fixed hours but he always works on the 16.00 to 34.00 shift.
All his work takes place at the main reception.
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
He then contacted the head of reception VÃtor Santos and informed him of the situation.
He remained at the OC reception until 24.00 when he was replaced by a colleague Mr Eliseu.
He then left the OC and went home.
He did not see or hear anything suspicious on 3rd May nor on the previous days.
Reads, signs, ratifies
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This very important witness appears to have been nearly an hour out with his timings
and his account of the phone calls doesn't tally with the official phone records.
John Hill says Gerry went to reception but no hint of the time or of being with him;
On the night of the disappearance he always saw the McCanns together in the apartment they were occupying at the time, with the exception of an episode when Gerry went to the main 24 hour reception
- , with the purpose of speaking to a GNR officer, he is not sure at what time this occurred, but it was certainly before 24.00.
Gerry agrees he went to reception, but no time given, and no mention of John Hill;
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom.
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John Hill says Gerry went to reception but no hint of the time or of being with him;
On the night of the disappearance he always saw the McCanns together in the apartment they were occupying at the time, with the exception of an episode when Gerry went to the main 24 hour reception
- , with the purpose of speaking to a GNR officer, he is not sure at what time this occurred, but it was certainly before 24.00.
Gerry agrees he went to reception, but no time given, and no mention of John Hill;
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom.
I think it's Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well. (MO)
Matt first went to reception at 10:10. 30 minutes later is 10:40.
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That is impossible. John Hill wasn't informed about the disappearance until 10:28 and then he made his way to apartment 5A. Gerry went with John Hill to reception and called the police at 10:41 so an hour after his estimate time.
OK. So Helder was sitting at the reception, the nannies were running around frantically, Matt had been sent to reception to call the police, John Hill was told at 10.28 about the situation by Lindsay the nanny, Vitor dos Santos had been called by Helder & told about the situation/GNR were busy at Odiaxere..........but the first phone call to the police ACCORDING TO THE TELEPHONE RECORDS was made at 2241.
IMO the telephone records regarding calls to the GNR from OC were doctored or none of the rest makes any sense.
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OK. So Helder was sitting at the reception, the nannies were running around frantically, Matt had been sent to reception to call the police, John Hill was told at 10.28 about the situation by Vitor dos Santos who had been called by Helder & told about the situation/GNR were busy at Odiaxere..........but the first phone call to the police ACCORDING TO THE TELEPHONE RECORDS was made at 2241.
IMO the telephone records regarding calls to the GNR from OC were doctored or none of the rest makes any sense.
Manager John Hill went to apartment 5A first before going to reception to call the police at 10:41.
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Manager John Hill went to apartment 5A first before going to reception to call the police at 10:41.
So why did Helder apparently not make a single phone call before that time? How could he have known the GNR were busy elsewhere?
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I stayed at the table in case Madeleine had wandered off and she might come looking round the restaurant. Err this is when it gets all a bit confusing because I’ve no idea how long I, I stayed there. I don’t, I don’t think it was that long and I know that at one point, again, this wasn’t in my original statement, Dave did come back to the table and say can, can you just go back to the apartment, but all this is very, very, very vague and I know when I left the table I went, I did go into err Kate and Gerry’s err apartment. (DW)
A lot of people who knew Madeleine appeared to believe she had wandered off which in itself makes a nonsense of claims to the contrary.
Why do posters who have no personal knowledge of the child and who have never been to Ocean Club in Praia da Luz claim the woke and wandered theory could never have happened when those close to the McCanns thought it could?
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A lot of people who knew Madeleine appeared to believe she had wandered off which in itself makes a nonsense of claims to the contrary.
Why do posters who have no personal knowledge of the child and who have never been to Ocean Club in Praia da Luz claim the woke and wandered theory could never have happened when those close to the McCanns thought it could?
It could have happened but she didn't conveniently fall into a deep sleep in Smithman's arms.
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OK. So Helder was sitting at the reception, the nannies were running around frantically, Matt had been sent to reception to call the police, John Hill was told at 10.28 about the situation by Lindsay the nanny, Vitor dos Santos had been called by Helder & told about the situation/GNR were busy at Odiaxere..........but the first phone call to the police ACCORDING TO THE TELEPHONE RECORDS was made at 2241.
IMO the telephone records regarding calls to the GNR from OC were doctored or none of the rest makes any sense.
That could be a possibility because the GNR seem to have been in no hurry according to Helder. Later the GNR possibly realised that they'd made a mistake not responding immediately. How they would doctor the phone record though I don't know.
Another possibility is that Helder made the mistake by waiting to see if the child was found, and he was trying to cover his back when he made his statement. He makes no mention of Matt coming to reception either; according to Fiona Payne she sent him to call the police.
According to Vitor, Helder said John Hill was agitated. but according to John Hill and others he wasn't even there when Helder phoned Vitor between 10pm and 10.15pm. Mind, Vitor said he arrived at the resort 10 or 15 minutes after the phone call from Helder and the GNR were there. so if he arrived at 10.30pm he not only arrived at the same time or just before John Hill, he also arrived before the GNR had even been telephoned.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR-SANTOS.htm
All that is before I even start on Amy Tierney who says she saw the open window and shutters which had been closed by Gerald before she had finished telephoning Lyndsay at 10.20pm from the night creche.
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Who said that Amy phoned from the crèche?
I believe that Amy went to 5A immediately after the news from the parent to check if Maddie was indeed missing and done a search in the apartment
Before calling Lyndsay to inform her that Maddie was indeed missing. Then Lyndsay phoned Emma whose statement says it was around 22.17
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
hhttp://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
So I think that Jacqueline Williams time and explanation is more reasonable:-
That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called "Maddie" has disappeared, and that the girl's parents needed help in looking for her.
When questioned she said that the crêche also offered a free service permitting parents to leave their children in the care of the crêche workers during dinner between 19.15 and 23.00, seeing as the abovementioned situation occurred during this time and that she was on duty for that service on that night.
Whilst this was happening, her colleague tried to find out and confirmed that a child by the name of Madeleine McCann had disappeared and that they were about to begin the "missing child procedure".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
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A lot of people who knew Madeleine appeared to believe she had wandered off which in itself makes a nonsense of claims to the contrary.
Why do posters who have no personal knowledge of the child and who have never been to Ocean Club in Praia da Luz claim the woke and wandered theory could never have happened when those close to the McCanns thought it could?
Because the parents said so. Emphatically. Many times. David Payne was sure also because the child gate and the garden gate were closed (according to Kate when she found Madeleine gone).
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A lot of people who knew Madeleine appeared to believe she had wandered off which in itself makes a nonsense of claims to the contrary.
Why do posters who have no personal knowledge of the child and who have never been to Ocean Club in Praia da Luz claim the woke and wandered theory could never have happened when those close to the McCanns thought it could?
If Maddie woke and wandered who opened the shutters
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Beg you're pardon, you're right of course. It was 10.03pm. It is Faithlilly who keeps banging on about 10.13pm, not Gerry.
10.03 + 10 minutes = ?
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10.03 + 10 minutes = ?
And you still believe (despite the wealth of other witness testimony that I have posted here today) that Kate left the table for 10 minutes prior to raising the alarm at 10.13pm, and despite the fact that no one else seems to agree with you? You're stubbornly steadfast, I grant you!
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And you still believe (despite the wealth of other witness testimony that I have posted here today) that Kate left the table for 10 minutes prior to raising the alarm at 10.13pm, and despite the fact that no one else seems to agree with you? You're stubbornly steadfast, I grant you!
You have posted no testimony, others have. The problem with everything posted is that the times claimed are prefixed by 'about' or 'around'.
BTW Alfie why does it matter so much to you what I think ?
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Who said that Amy phoned from the crèche?
I believe that Amy went to 5A immediately after the news from the parent to check if Maddie was indeed missing and done a search in the apartment
Before calling Lyndsay to inform her that Maddie was indeed missing. Then Lyndsay phoned Emma whose statement says it was around 22.17
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
hhttp://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
So I think that Jacqueline Williams time and explanation is more reasonable:-
That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called "Maddie" has disappeared, and that the girl's parents needed help in looking for her.
When questioned she said that the crêche also offered a free service permitting parents to leave their children in the care of the crêche workers during dinner between 19.15 and 23.00, seeing as the abovementioned situation occurred during this time and that she was on duty for that service on that night.
Whilst this was happening, her colleague tried to find out and confirmed that a child by the name of Madeleine McCann had disappeared and that they were about to begin the "missing child procedure".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
Jacqueline's colleague was Amy. How did she try to find out then? she has not said, but Charlotte Pennington said Amy phoned Lyndsay and Lyndsay confirmed it - at 10.20pm. Charlotte didn't leave the night creche according to Jacqueline, so the call must have been from there. Perhaps Amy ran straight to the McCann's apartment before making the call? She doesn't say in which order she did things, but she does say both parents and a friend were there when she was at the apartment. According to Gerry the first thing he did was close the shutters when he ran back to the apartment with Kate. The only friend who entered the apartment was Fiona, who didn't see the open shutters. None of them mention Amy coming and searching the apartment.
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A lot of people who knew Madeleine appeared to believe she had wandered off which in itself makes a nonsense of claims to the contrary.
Why do posters who have no personal knowledge of the child and who have never been to Ocean Club in Praia da Luz claim the woke and wandered theory could never have happened when those close to the McCanns thought it could?
A lot of placating words would have been said to Kate and Gerry. Better to pretend to them that Madeleine had probabaly waken and wandered than have them face tghe raw possibility that Madeleine had been taken IMO
Just which people who knew Madeleine appeared to believe she had wandered off, Mr Mod ?
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You have posted no testimony, others have. The problem with everything posted is that the times claimed are prefixed by 'about' or 'around'.
BTW Alfie why does it matter so much to you what I think ?
Erm...I have posted a load of testimony this afternoon on this thread, all of which strongly suggests the alarm was raised considerably earlier than 10.13pm.
It matters to me not a jot what you think, I know full well that no amount of evidence or careful, logical reasoning with you will alter your p.o.v. one millimetre. I do however find it interesting that you and PF steadfastly refuse to acknowledge each other's very differing thoughts on this matter, preferring instead to argue about it via a third person. What are you two afraid of?
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Erm...I have posted a load of testimony this afternoon on this thread, all of which strongly suggests the alarm was raised considerably earlier than 10.13pm.
It matters to me not a jot what you think, I know full well that no amount of evidence or careful, logical reasoning with you will alter your p.o.v. one millimetre. I do however find it interesting that you and PF steadfastly refuse to acknowledge each other's very differing thoughts on this matter, preferring instead to argue about it via a third person. What are you two afraid of?
You have posted nothing but the estimated guesses of very busy staff whose approximation differ not only between each other but also the tapas friends. This of course brings us not one jot closer to the truth.
And TBH I'm perversely pleased that you acknowledge that you won't change mu PoV because now with any luck you'll give up trying and I won't have to put up with you stalking me all over the forum.
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You have posted nothing but the estimated guesses of very busy staff whose approximation differ not only between each other but also the tapas friends. This of course brings us not one jot closer to the truth.
And TBH I'm perversely pleased that you acknowledge that you won't change mu PoV because now with any luck you'll give up trying and I won't have to put up with you stalking me all over the forum.
Please dont talk about stalking Faith.
Early on in this forum you and a couple or so others stalked me beyond all reason
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Jacqueline's colleague was Amy. How did she try to find out then? she has not said, but Charlotte Pennington said Amy phoned Lyndsay and Lyndsay confirmed it - at 10.20pm. Charlotte didn't leave the night creche according to Jacqueline, so the call must have been from there. Perhaps Amy ran straight to the McCann's apartment before making the call? She doesn't say in which order she did things, but she does say both parents and a friend were there when she was at the apartment. According to Gerry the first thing he did was close the shutters when he ran back to the apartment with Kate. The only friend who entered the apartment was Fiona, who didn't see the open shutters. None of them mention Amy coming and searching the apartment.
Amy found out by going to 5A and searching there
Lyndsay said that she was told that Madeleine had disappeared, by Amy at 10.20
No Fiona was not the only friend there..Diane was there first.
There was so many people in and out of 5A did the mccanns mention them all?
She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.
The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine’s shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.
However there was a bed against the window, which could have enabled the girl to climb up onto it and then up to the window, the witness thinks it would not be possible as she would not be able to open the shutters and even if she had done so she would have fallen outside as the window is too high for a child of that age to be able to descend without falling.
In reply to the question asked, she said that the back door (porta das traseiras) that leads to the parking area was closed, but she doesn’t know whether the front door (porta da frente) was locked as when she arrived both the parents and a female friend of theirs whose name she does not know, were there and that is why the door was open.
After having searched the apartment and verified that the girl was not there,
This is when I believe she phoned Lyndsey from 5A ….It was urgent after all.
I also think that the female friend was possibly Diane, who couldn’t remember much at all about the window…In a state of shock?
Why would Amy lie about the window?
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
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You have posted no testimony, others have. The problem with everything posted is that the times claimed are prefixed by 'about' or 'around'.
BTW Alfie why does it matter so much to you what I think ?
It's interesting just what a wide variation there is among witnesses about the time the alarm was raised. The Tapas nine agree roughly, but they sat down and wrote the timeline before they gave their statements so they would agree. Because they colluded we could discount their statements, or count them as one rather than nine separate recollections. The Carpenters may have heard someone calling 'Madeleine' between 9.15 and 9.30pm. The executive chef Pelega says 9.20pm. Although the PJ concluded that the alarm was raised at 10pm, it seems it could have been any time between 9.15pm and 10.15pm.
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You have posted nothing but the estimated guesses of very busy staff whose approximation differ not only between each other but also the tapas friends. This of course brings us not one jot closer to the truth.
And TBH I'm perversely pleased that you acknowledge that you won't change mu PoV because now with any luck you'll give up trying and I won't have to put up with you stalking me all over the forum.
Why did you claim I had posted no testimony but that others had? Why is it not testimony when I post it but it is testimony when others post it? If you were to plot everyone's testimony re: when the alarm was raised on a graph and removed the extremes at either end. of the graph you would get a clear picture of when thr alarm was raised, around 10pm give or take a couple of minutes.
PS I'm perversely pleased to learn that you don't enjoy my attentions, particularly when my posts challenge your flawed logic, it's very satisfying to know, thank you 8((()*/
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It's interesting just what a wide variation there is among witnesses about the time the alarm was raised. The Tapas nine agree roughly, but they sat down and wrote the timeline before they gave their statements so they would agree. Because they colluded we could discount their statements, or count them as one rather than nine separate recollections. The Carpenters may have heard someone calling 'Madeleine' between 9.15 and 9.30pm. The executive chef Pelega says 9.20pm. Although the PJ concluded that the alarm was raised at 10pm, it seems it could have been any time between 9.15pm and 10.15pm.
Why do you think the PJ concluded that the alarm was raised at 10pm?
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Amy found out by going to 5A and searching there
Lyndsay said that she was told that Madeleine had disappeared, by Amy at 10.20
No Fiona was not the only friend there..Diane was there first.
There was so many people in and out of 5A did the mccanns mention them all?
She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.
The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine’s shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.
However there was a bed against the window, which could have enabled the girl to climb up onto it and then up to the window, the witness thinks it would not be possible as she would not be able to open the shutters and even if she had done so she would have fallen outside as the window is too high for a child of that age to be able to descend without falling.
In reply to the question asked, she said that the back door (porta das traseiras) that leads to the parking area was closed, but she doesn’t know whether the front door (porta da frente) was locked as when she arrived both the parents and a female friend of theirs whose name she does not know, were there and that is why the door was open.
After having searched the apartment and verified that the girl was not there,
This is when I believe she phoned Lyndsey from 5A ….It was urgent after all.
I also think that the female friend was possibly Diane, who couldn’t remember much at all about the window…In a state of shock?
Why would Amy lie about the window?
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
When Dianne was there, so was Fiona;
The question being asked about the people that were inside the apartment of McCANN at that time, the witness said that the McCANN couple were present (although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY), and FIONA,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
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Why do you think the PJ concluded that the alarm was raised at 10pm?
Did you forget this Alfie ?
From the PJ's final report :
'(later on it was verified that the detection and the subsequent alarm of the same, in reality happened, between 22H00 and 22H10 of the day 3 of May of 2007,'
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When Dianne was there, so was Fiona;
The question being asked about the people that were inside the apartment of McCANN at that time, the witness said that the McCANN couple were present (although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY), and FIONA,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY
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Did you forget this Alfie ?
From the PJ's final report :
'(later on it was verified that the detection and the subsequent alarm of the same, in reality happened, between 22H00 and 22H10 of the day 3 of May of 2007,'
One of the waiters phoned thru didn't he?
Was it Jeronimo?
Please correct me if I am remembering incorrectly.
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Why do you think the PJ concluded that the alarm was raised at 10pm?
(later on it was verified that the detection and the subsequent alarm of the same, in reality happened, between 22H00 and 22H10 of the day 3 of May of 2007,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
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Did you forget this Alfie ?
From the PJ's final report :
'(later on it was verified that the detection and the subsequent alarm of the same, in reality happened, between 22H00 and 22H10 of the day 3 of May of 2007,'
So there we go then - proof positive that Gerry was mistaken! Thanks for finding this.
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(later on it was verified that the detection and the subsequent alarm of the same, in reality happened, between 22H00 and 22H10 of the day 3 of May of 2007,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
Note that the Final Report also says:
What happened during the time lapse between 5.30 p.m. (the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time by a person that differs from her parents or siblings) and the time at which the disappearance is reported by KATE HEALY (at around 10 p.m.).
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(later on it was verified that the detection and the subsequent alarm of the same, in reality happened, between 22H00 and 22H10 of the day 3 of May of 2007,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
Also, please note that it says this in the Final Report too (re: the Smiths Sighting)...
It was established that at the time that was being mentioned, GERALD McCANN was sitting at the table, in the Tapas Restaurant.
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Did you forget this Alfie ?
From the PJ's final report :
'(later on it was verified that the detection and the subsequent alarm of the same, in reality happened, between 22H00 and 22H10 of the day 3 of May of 2007,'
Fiona didn't get there until after her search and had sent Matt to call police at 10.20 approx.
Diane got there before that. Fiona then sent Diane to watch over their children so that she could stay with Kate
Prompted to state for the record the movements that occurred that night, during the above dinner, the witness reiterated that she could not say specifically who had left nor when they had done so.
- Therefore, she can only say with precision that, at 22.00 Kate McCann returned to the restaurant, seemingly in panic, communicating to others the fact that of Madeleine's disappearance. Asked about the reaction of other members of the group when they heard the above from KATE, the witness says that everyone, except the witness, left the restaurant and went to the apartment of the couple McCANN in order to find out what was going on.
In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN.
- In that apartment she found that KATE was completely in panic, in "state of shock ".
- Because she was asked, she states that she entered the apartment by the sliding glass door of the patio at the back, which gives access to the lounge. Then she went to the children's bedroom, noting that there she found KATE and the twin siblings of MADELEINE
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post459.html#p459
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Amy found out by going to 5A and searching there
Lyndsay said that she was told that Madeleine had disappeared, by Amy at 10.20
No Fiona was not the only friend there..Diane was there first.
There was so many people in and out of 5A did the mccanns mention them all?
She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.
The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine’s shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.
However there was a bed against the window, which could have enabled the girl to climb up onto it and then up to the window, the witness thinks it would not be possible as she would not be able to open the shutters and even if she had done so she would have fallen outside as the window is too high for a child of that age to be able to descend without falling.
In reply to the question asked, she said that the back door (porta das traseiras) that leads to the parking area was closed, but she doesn’t know whether the front door (porta da frente) was locked as when she arrived both the parents and a female friend of theirs whose name she does not know, were there and that is why the door was open.
After having searched the apartment and verified that the girl was not there,
This is when I believe she phoned Lyndsey from 5A ….It was urgent after all.
I also think that the female friend was possibly Diane, who couldn’t remember much at all about the window…In a state of shock?
Why would Amy lie about the window?
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
Dianne was there first then Fiona arrived next at around 10:10. Emma Knight arrived 10 minutes later at around 10:20 and only Kate and Fiona were present at 5A - no Amy. Emma received a call from the night creche at 10:17 and went to 5A.
I was told who the missing girl was and at the beginning of the procedure went to the McCann's apartment to obtain the girl's description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared. When I arrived at the apartment, there was a lady on the terrace, whom I now know to be Kate McCann, accompanied by the wife of one of her friends, David Payne. Kate could not say a word, looked very upset and about to cry. It was Mrs Payne who provided me with the details that I needed. (Emma Knight)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
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So there we go then - proof positive that Gerry was mistaken! Thanks for finding this.
Remember this from an earlier post of yours Alfie :
'Why did they not put the time of the alert at around 10.10pm or 10.15pm which would have been much closer to Gerry's stated time '
Which is exactly what the PJ did.
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Fiona didn't get there until after her search and had sent Matt to call police at 10.20 approx.
Diane got there before that. Fiona then sent Diane to watch over their children so that she could stay with Kate
Prompted to state for the record the movements that occurred that night, during the above dinner, the witness reiterated that she could not say specifically who had left nor when they had done so.
- Therefore, she can only say with precision that, at 22.00 Kate McCann returned to the restaurant, seemingly in panic, communicating to others the fact that of Madeleine's disappearance. Asked about the reaction of other members of the group when they heard the above from KATE, the witness says that everyone, except the witness, left the restaurant and went to the apartment of the couple McCANN in order to find out what was going on.
In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN.
- In that apartment she found that KATE was completely in panic, in "state of shock ".
- Because she was asked, she states that she entered the apartment by the sliding glass door of the patio at the back, which gives access to the lounge. Then she went to the children's bedroom, noting that there she found KATE and the twin siblings of MADELEINE
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post459.html#p459
I remember saying to Matt at that point 'You go down to main reception and phone the Police. (FP)
Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'. (MO)
Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club’s twenty-four-hour reception to get the staff to call the police. (Madeleine) 8)--))
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Fiona didn't get there until after her search and had sent Matt to call police at 10.20 approx.
Diane got there before that. Fiona then sent Diane to watch over their children so that she could stay with Kate
Prompted to state for the record the movements that occurred that night, during the above dinner, the witness reiterated that she could not say specifically who had left nor when they had done so.
- Therefore, she can only say with precision that, at 22.00 Kate McCann returned to the restaurant, seemingly in panic, communicating to others the fact that of Madeleine's disappearance. Asked about the reaction of other members of the group when they heard the above from KATE, the witness says that everyone, except the witness, left the restaurant and went to the apartment of the couple McCANN in order to find out what was going on.
In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN.
- In that apartment she found that KATE was completely in panic, in "state of shock ".
- Because she was asked, she states that she entered the apartment by the sliding glass door of the patio at the back, which gives access to the lounge. Then she went to the children's bedroom, noting that there she found KATE and the twin siblings of MADELEINE
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post459.html#p459
The question being asked about the people that were inside the apartment of McCANN at that time, the witness said that the McCANN couple were present (although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY), and FIONA,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
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Dianne was there first then Fiona arrived next at around 10:10. Emma Knight arrived 10 minutes later at around 10:20 and only Kate and Fiona were present at 5A - no Amy. Emma received a call from the night creche at 10:17 and went to 5A.
I was told who the missing girl was and at the beginning of the procedure went to the McCann's apartment to obtain the girl's description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared. When I arrived at the apartment, there was a lady on the terrace, whom I now know to be Kate McCann, accompanied by the wife of one of her friends, David Payne. Kate could not say a word, looked very upset and about to cry. It was Mrs Payne who provided me with the details that I needed. (Emma Knight)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
Amy was there at 5A,before Emma arrived at the tapas bar around 10.20/5 ish and met up with Amy and Lyndsay who were starting the search procedure, which started at 10.25.
After talking to Fiona and getting details she returned to the search setup, until later.
On the night of 3rd May, after having finished work, I planned to meet a group of colleagues at 22.30 to go out. At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the Crèche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the
“Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child”.
This procedure involved the distribution of leaflets that had already been prepared, with the names of the locations, for the members of staff, indicating the zones that they should search. Once the location indicated had been searched, the leaflet was returned and another one with a different location was handed over. This procedure was followed by the members of staff, but on that night about 6 residents from the complex were also involved in the search.
I was told who the missing girl was and at the beginning of the procedure went to the McCann’s apartment to obtain the girl’s description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared.
When I arrived at the apartment, there was a lady on the terrace, whom I now know to be Kate McCann, accompanied by the wife of one of her friends, David Payne. Kate could not say a word, looked very upset and about to cry. It was Mrs Payne who provided me with the details that I needed.
I returned to the location where the leaflets were being distributed and passed on the information that I had gathered about the missing girl. Lyndsey was busy with the distribution of the leaflets and I went to search in the beach area. On my return I passed by the Duke Pub where I met other members of staff who also joined in the searches.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post190.html#p190
Amy Tierney
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
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The question being asked about the people that were inside the apartment of McCANN at that time, the witness said that the McCANN couple were present (although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY), and FIONA,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
Dianne went to 5A twice. The first time after trying to lift the shutters which she couldn't do from the outside she went back to the table to retrieve the items there and returned back to 5A.
"At the time described above she remained about 10 minutes in the apartment." First time at 5A and no Gerry.
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The question being asked about the people that were inside the apartment of McCANN at that time, the witness said that the McCANN couple were present (although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY), and FIONA,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
Maybe Gerry was in and out....I don't know. She probably didn't see Fiona who would have arrived in 5 A after She had left(Amy) and she would know Fiona, but did not know the female friend who was there. So I think it was Diane.
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Maybe Gerry was in and out....I don't know. She probably didn't see Fiona who would have arrived in 5 A after She had left(Amy) and she would know Fiona, but did not know the female friend who was there. So I think it was Diane.
No he wasn't there for first time Dianne went. Only Kate was there and Dianne said she was there 10 minutes. So from 10 to 10.10 Gerry was elsewhere.
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Dianne went to 5A twice. The first time after trying to lift the shutters which she couldn't do from the outside she went back to the table to retrieve the items there and returned back to 5A.
"At the time described above she remained about 10 minutes in the apartment." First time at 5A and no Gerry.
Yep, I know, Pat, but she was rather confused and upset. Gerry may have been searching close nearby or gone to reception as Amy said to call police....I don't know, I wasn't there.
I think it was Diane that Amy saw and then Amy left and met up with her colleagues before Fiona arrived, then Diane returned to 5A and Fiona sent her to care for the children.
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Amy was there at 5A,before Emma arrived at the tapas bar around 10.20/5 ish and met up with Amy and Lyndsay who were starting the search procedure, which started at 10.25.
After talking to Fiona and getting details she returned to the search setup, until later.
On the night of 3rd May, after having finished work, I planned to meet a group of colleagues at 22.30 to go out. At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the Crèche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the
“Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child”.
This procedure involved the distribution of leaflets that had already been prepared, with the names of the locations, for the members of staff, indicating the zones that they should search. Once the location indicated had been searched, the leaflet was returned and another one with a different location was handed over. This procedure was followed by the members of staff, but on that night about 6 residents from the complex were also involved in the search.
I was told who the missing girl was and at the beginning of the procedure went to the McCann’s apartment to obtain the girl’s description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared.
When I arrived at the apartment, there was a lady on the terrace, whom I now know to be Kate McCann, accompanied by the wife of one of her friends, David Payne. Kate could not say a word, looked very upset and about to cry. It was Mrs Payne who provided me with the details that I needed.
I returned to the location where the leaflets were being distributed and passed on the information that I had gathered about the missing girl. Lyndsey was busy with the distribution of the leaflets and I went to search in the beach area. On my return I passed by the Duke Pub where I met other members of staff who also joined in the searches.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post190.html#p190
Amy Tierney
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
Now here's.a thing. Fiona Payne must have known very early on the description of Madeleine's pyjamas as she gave the description to Amy therefore why didn't Fiona ask Jane for a description of the pyjamas worn by the child she had seen in order to verify whether it could be Madeleine ?
Further as Gerry was standing in the same street when Tanner saw Tannerman why did she or any of their other friends never ask Gerry if he had seen Tannerman too ?
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Meanwhile ~ in 2015
I am at a loss why people cannot accept that Operation Grange used PJ files which were professionally translated.
They had access to all the PJ files including those which have been withheld.
It is risible that it is thought they did not reinterview witness and interview new witnesses before progressing from review to investigation … what on earth did these people suppose the review was all about ... and from where did they think the evidence came from to allow the progression?
Common sense dictates that the officers of Operation Grange have looked at and collated all the information available in 2007 and have taken it into account.
I am sure their investigative tool for doing this carried a heavier punch than good old Excel ever could.
Timelines ~ statements ~ Tannerman ~ Smithman ~ who was where and when et al, will all have been professionally analysed … so please do try to move on folks and find something more up to date and less threadbare with which to berate Madeleine McCann's parents.
**snip
Police from Scotland Yard have identified 38 people of interest including 12 UK nationals following a two-year review of evidence in the case.
None of the 38 people identified are known to the McCanns.
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood said his team has carried out new witness interviews and was in a "unique position" in analysing information from police in Portugal and the UK, as well as seven private detective firms.
**snip
"It is a positive step in our hunt for Madeleine that our understanding of the evidence has enabled us to shift from review to investigation.
We have identified 38 persons of interest from a number of European countries.
Twelve of those people are UK nationals who we believe were in Portugal at the time Madeleine disappeared.
"Our working relationship with the Portuguese police is positive and now that we have moved to investigation we are requesting further specific assistance through normal judicial routes.
We remain in close contact with Kate and Gerry McCann and they are updated on our current position."
**snip
Police have interviewed witnesses, found new evidence and are working on new theories about what happened to Madeleine.
**snip
He stressed that neither her parents nor the McCanns' friends who were having dinner with them that night are among the 38 people identified.
"Neither her parents or any of the members of the group who were with her are either persons of interest or suspects.
"They (the McCanns) are parents who have lost their daughter and we are doing all we can to bring resolution for them to find out what has happened to Madeleine."
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/231942-madeleine-mccann-disappearance-investigated-in-new-met-police-probe/
[/quote]
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Now here's.a thing. Fiona Payne must have known very early on the description of Madeleine's pyjamas as she gave the description to Amy therefore why didn't Fiona ask Jane for a description of the pyjamas worn by the child she had seen in order to verify whether it could be Madeleine ?
Further as Gerry was standing in the same street when Tanner saw Tannerman why did she or any of their other friends never ask Gerry if he had seen Tannerman too ?
Did Fiona know of Jane's sighting this early after the disappearance?
No idea about Tannerman, Faith. Do we know if they asked him?
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Sorry, posted twice
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Yep, I know, Pat, but she was rather confused and upset. Gerry may have been searching close nearby or gone to reception as Amy said to call police....I don't know, I wasn't there.
I think it was Diane that Amy saw and then Amy left and met up with her colleagues before Fiona arrived, then Diane returned to 5A and Fiona sent her to care for the children.
Gerry was certainly busy at that time Anna and he was undoubtedly seen by somebody(s).
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So there we go then - proof positive that Gerry was mistaken! Thanks for finding this.
Mistaken or ignoring the agreed timeline written on the Activity book. '10pm alarm raised' it says - twice.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html
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Amy was there at 5A,before Emma arrived at the tapas bar around 10.20/5 ish and met up with Amy and Lyndsay who were starting the search procedure, which started at 10.25.
After talking to Fiona and getting details she returned to the search setup, until later.
On the night of 3rd May, after having finished work, I planned to meet a group of colleagues at 22.30 to go out. At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the Crèche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the
“Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child”.
This procedure involved the distribution of leaflets that had already been prepared, with the names of the locations, for the members of staff, indicating the zones that they should search. Once the location indicated had been searched, the leaflet was returned and another one with a different location was handed over. This procedure was followed by the members of staff, but on that night about 6 residents from the complex were also involved in the search.
I was told who the missing girl was and at the beginning of the procedure went to the McCann’s apartment to obtain the girl’s description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared.
When I arrived at the apartment, there was a lady on the terrace, whom I now know to be Kate McCann, accompanied by the wife of one of her friends, David Payne. Kate could not say a word, looked very upset and about to cry. It was Mrs Payne who provided me with the details that I needed.
I returned to the location where the leaflets were being distributed and passed on the information that I had gathered about the missing girl. Lyndsey was busy with the distribution of the leaflets and I went to search in the beach area. On my return I passed by the Duke Pub where I met other members of staff who also joined in the searches.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post190.html#p190
Amy Tierney
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
1. The first people in the apartment were Kate and Gerry. The shutters and window were open.
2. Gerry closed the shutters
3. Amy arrived. Before Gerry closed the shutters? In that case she ran in with them. So she knew just before they did? She must have done to arrive at the apartment at the same time because she had further to run. Also, the woman who told Amy about it must have known before the McCanns did. However;
4. Amy saw a friend in the apartment also.
5. This could have been Fiona or Dianne.
6. Fiona didn't see the shutters open.
7. Dianne wasn't sure, but she did arrive after Fiona, as Dianne said she was there. As Fiona didn't see the shutters open, neither did Dianne.
8. Please explain how Amy saw the open shutters.
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Did Fiona know of Jane's sighting this early after the disappearance?
No idea about Tannerman, Faith. Do we know if they asked him?
From Jane's statements Fiona knew about Jane's sighting only minutes after the alarm being raised and there is no mention of Gerrybeing asked whether he had seen Tannerman. In fact we are told Gerry didn't even know about Tannerman until somewhere around 1am.
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1. The first people in the apartment were Kate and Gerry. The shutters and window were open.
2. Gerry closed the shutters
3. Amy arrived. Before Gerry closed the shutters? In that case she ran in with them. So she knew just before they did? She must have done to arrive at the apartment at the same time because she had further to run. Also, the woman who told Amy about it must have known before the McCanns did. However;
4. Amy saw a friend in the apartment also.
5. This could have been Fiona or Dianne.
6. Fiona didn't see the shutters open.
7. Dianne wasn't sure, but she did arrive after Fiona, as Dianne said she was there. As Fiona didn't see the shutters open, neither did Dianne.
8. Please explain how Amy saw the open shutters.
Who was Amy's translator?
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Remember this from an earlier post of yours Alfie :
'Why did they not put the time of the alert at around 10.10pm or 10.15pm which would have been much closer to Gerry's stated time '
Which is exactly what the PJ did.
They didn't though did they Faithlilly? They put the time as between 10pm and 10.10pm (at the latest) meaning Gerry must have been mistaken when he said Kate was gone for 10 minutes.
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the quality of the witnesses is the same as in every other case except we have never had so much information to pick over. It's comical to see the troof seekers trying so hard to discover something which simply isn't there
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They didn't though did they Faithlilly? They put the time as between 10pm and 10.10pm (at the latest) meaning Gerry must have been mistaken when he said Kate was gone for 10 minutes.
Gerry make a mistake ? Surely not @)(++(*
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They didn't though did they Faithlilly? They put the time as between 10pm and 10.10pm (at the latest) meaning Gerry must have been mistaken when he said Kate was gone for 10 minutes.
I think what PF and I have shown, although we disagree on the finer detail, is that within the timeframe suggested by the witnesses that there was indeed time for Gerry to have been the Smith's Smithman.
-
Meanwhile ~ in 2015
I am at a loss why people cannot accept that Operation Grange used PJ files which were professionally translated.
They had access to all the PJ files including those which have been withheld.
It is risible that it is thought they did not reinterview witness and interview new witnesses before progressing from review to investigation … what on earth did these people suppose the review was all about ... and from where did they think the evidence came from to allow the progression?
Common sense dictates that the officers of Operation Grange have looked at and collated all the information available in 2007 and have taken it into account.
I am sure their investigative tool for doing this carried a heavier punch than good old Excel ever could.
Timelines ~ statements ~ Tannerman ~ Smithman ~ who was where and when et al, will all have been professionally analysed … so please do try to move on folks and find something more up to date and less threadbare with which to berate Madeleine McCann's parents.
Are you very important? where do you get off telling people to 'move on'? why don't you and your trolling friends /move on?
No one here is berating or slagging off the parents,how dare you accuse posters of such a thing, we are disucssing time lines... this is a discussion forum after all..oh and the thread title is about witnesses.
**snip
Police from Scotland Yard have identified 38 people of interest including 12 UK nationals following a two-year review of evidence in the case.
None of the 38 people identified are known to the McCanns.
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood said his team has carried out new witness interviews and was in a "unique position" in analysing information from police in Portugal and the UK, as well as seven private detective firms.
**snip
"It is a positive step in our hunt for Madeleine that our understanding of the evidence has enabled us to shift from review to investigation.
We have identified 38 persons of interest from a number of European countries.
Twelve of those people are UK nationals who we believe were in Portugal at the time Madeleine disappeared.
"Our working relationship with the Portuguese police is positive and now that we have moved to investigation we are requesting further specific assistance through normal judicial routes.
We remain in close contact with Kate and Gerry McCann and they are updated on our current position."
**snip
Police have interviewed witnesses, found new evidence and are working on new theories about what happened to Madeleine.
**snip
He stressed that neither her parents nor the McCanns' friends who were having dinner with them that night are among the 38 people identified.
"Neither her parents or any of the members of the group who were with her are either persons of interest or suspects.
"They (the McCanns) are parents who have lost their daughter and we are doing all we can to bring resolution for them to find out what has happened to Madeleine."
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/231942-madeleine-mccann-disappearance-investigated-in-new-met-police-probe/
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Oh look someone has been playing with my posts, as well as removing them. Oh dear, bad show indeed.
Anyway, as this topic was about Witnesses at the scene, I was saying the time line was inportant to discuss, But SOMEONE said we should stop berating the McCANNS...Hmm
I DID NOT ADD THIS TO MY QUOTE.
**snip
Police from Scotland Yard have identified 38 people of interest including 12 UK nationals following a two-year review of evidence in the case.
None of the 38 people identified are known to the McCanns.
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood said his team has carried out new witness interviews and was in a "unique position" in analysing information from police in Portugal and the UK, as well as seven private detective firms.
**snip
"It is a positive step in our hunt for Madeleine that our understanding of the evidence has enabled us to shift from review to investigation.
We have identified 38 persons of interest from a number of European countries.
Twelve of those people are UK nationals who we believe were in Portugal at the time Madeleine disappeared.
"Our working relationship with the Portuguese police is positive and now that we have moved to investigation we are requesting further specific assistance through normal judicial routes.
We remain in close contact with Kate and Gerry McCann and they are updated on our current position."
**snip
Police have interviewed witnesses, found new evidence and are working on new theories about what happened to Madeleine.
**snip
He stressed that neither her parents nor the McCanns' friends who were having dinner with them that night are among the 38 people identified.
"Neither her parents or any of the members of the group who were with her are either persons of interest or suspects.
"They (the McCanns) are parents who have lost their daughter and we are doing all we can to bring resolution for them to find out what has happened to Madeleine."
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/231942-madeleine-mccann-disappearance-investigated-in-new-met-police-probe/.
Admin? anything to say about this?
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Quote from: Brietta on April 12, 2015, 11:53:49 PM
Meanwhile ~ in 2015
I am at a loss why people cannot accept that Operation Grange used PJ files which were professionally translated.
They had access to all the PJ files including those which have been withheld.
It is risible that it is thought they did not reinterview witness and interview new witnesses before progressing from review to investigation … what on earth did these people suppose the review was all about ... and from where did they think the evidence came from to allow the progression?
Common sense dictates that the officers of Operation Grange have looked at and collated all the information available in 2007 and have taken it into account.
I am sure their investigative tool for doing this carried a heavier punch than good old Excel ever could.
Timelines ~ statements ~ Tannerman ~ Smithman ~ who was where and when et al, will all have been professionally analysed … so please do try to move on folks and find something more up to date and less threadbare with which to berate Madeleine McCann's parents.
**snip
Police from Scotland Yard have identified 38 people of interest including 12 UK nationals following a two-year review of evidence in the case.
None of the 38 people identified are known to the McCanns.
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood said his team has carried out new witness interviews and was in a "unique position" in analysing information from police in Portugal and the UK, as well as seven private detective firms.
**snip
"It is a positive step in our hunt for Madeleine that our understanding of the evidence has enabled us to shift from review to investigation.
We have identified 38 persons of interest from a number of European countries.
Twelve of those people are UK nationals who we believe were in Portugal at the time Madeleine disappeared.
"Our working relationship with the Portuguese police is positive and now that we have moved to investigation we are requesting further specific assistance through normal judicial routes.
We remain in close contact with Kate and Gerry McCann and they are updated on our current position."
**snip
Police have interviewed witnesses, found new evidence and are working on new theories about what happened to Madeleine.
**snip
He stressed that neither her parents nor the McCanns' friends who were having dinner with them that night are among the 38 people identified.
"Neither her parents or any of the members of the group who were with her are either persons of interest or suspects.
"They (the McCanns) are parents who have lost their daughter and we are doing all we can to bring resolution for them to find out what has happened to Madeleine."
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/231942-madeleine-mccann-disappearance-investigated-in-new-met-police-probe/
Was there any particular point you were trying to make?
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"so please do try to move on folks and find something more up to date and less threadbare with which to berate Madeleine McCann's parents."
Are you a mod? how important is your rants compared to other people who have something to say. We have to 'move on' on your say so?
You have no right to accuse people who come here to discuss issued on a forum as being here just to berate parents. Why do you come here? certainly not to find out information about what may have happened.
Witness statements is this thread title, of people who were there on the night- nothing to do with NSY witnesses, but then you know that. You do make more people distrust the McCANNS due to your trolling.
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"so please do try to move on folks and find something more up to date and less threadbare with which to berate Madeleine McCann's parents."
Are you a mod? how important is your rants compared to other people who have something to say. We have to 'move on' on your say so?
You have no right to accuse people who come here to discuss issued on a forum as being here just to berate parents. Why do you come here? certainly not to find out information about what may have happened.
Witness statements is this thread title, of people who were there on the night- nothing to do with NSY witnesses, but then you know that. You do make more people distrust the McCANNS due to your trolling.
@)(++(*
You have an extremely limited view of what exactly constitutes "witness statements" ... and appear to have glossed over the fact that the arguidos and persons of interest recently questioned were also "there on the night".
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All those witnesses NSY were interviewing were there on the night? really? you have evidence? because as time has told, some claim they were not there on the night. Murat being one of them.
No limited views from me, I am the broad minded one- open to all sorts of theories to discuss on a DISCUSSION forum.
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1. The first people in the apartment were Kate and Gerry. The shutters and window were open.
2. Gerry closed the shutters
3. Amy arrived. Before Gerry closed the shutters? In that case she ran in with them. So she knew just before they did? She must have done to arrive at the apartment at the same time because she had further to run. Also, the woman who told Amy about it must have known before the McCanns did. However;
4. Amy saw a friend in the apartment also.
5. This could have been Fiona or Dianne.
6. Fiona didn't see the shutters open.
7. Dianne wasn't sure, but she did arrive after Fiona, as Dianne said she was there. As Fiona didn't see the shutters open, neither did Dianne.
8. Please explain how Amy saw the open shutters.
I can find nothing that states that Gerry finally closed the shutters at this time and Diane said that it was quite light in the bedroom when she arrived.
Do you have a cite for Gerry closing them permanently at this time? I possibly missed it.
Does he say that he closed the shutters again at this time or indeed the window, which may have been done while, or after Amy arrived.
I can think of no reason why Amy would lie, which appears to be what you are inferring or do you believe it was a mistake in the statement?
The deponent ran into the apartment accompanied by the rest of the group who, at the time, were seated at the table. When he arrived at the bedroom he first noticed that the door was completely open, the window was also open to one side, the shutters almost fully raised, the curtains drawn back, MADELEINE's bed was empty but the twins continued sleeping in their cots. He clarifies that according to what KATE told him, that was the scenario that she found when she entered the apartment.
(The group did not go into the apartment with Kate and Gerry at this time)
Then he closed the shutters, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do, much to his surprise given that he thought that that was only possible from the inside. They continued with searches outside, around the various apartment blocks, the deponent having asked MATHEW to go to the secondary reception in order to communicate the fact to the local police, since he had no doubt that his daughter had been abducted. He refutes, peremptorily, the possibility that MADELEINE could have left the apartment by her own means.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post524.html#p524
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Everybody sprinted back to our apartment, except for Dianne, who remained in the Tapas area, and Jane, who was away from the table seeing to her kids. I remember feeling frustrated when David said, ‘Let’s just check the apartment.’ I’d done that, and I knew, I knew, that Madeleine had been abducted. I ran out into the car park, flying from end to end, yelling desperately, ‘Madeleine! Madeleine!’ It was so cold and so windy. I kept picturing her in her short-sleeved Marks and Spencer Eeyore pyjamas and feeling how chilled she would be. Bizarrely, I found myself thinking it would have been better if she’d been wearing her long-sleeved Barbie ones. Fear was shearing through my body.
In the children’s room, Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside, he made the sickening discovery that it could be raised from this side, too, not just from inside as we’d thought. (Madeleine)
If Kate was flying though the car park then she didn't see Gerry lower the shutter.
Dianne couldn't raise the shutters from the outside. Contradiction alert! Shutters were down not up when Dianne arrived. Shutters were down not up when the police arrived.
I wonder if somebody else was flying though the car park because it leads you to the wasteland and then to the Smiths sighting &%+((£
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Everybody sprinted back to our apartment, except for Dianne, who remained in the Tapas area, and Jane, who was away from the table seeing to her kids. I remember feeling frustrated when David said, ‘Let’s just check the apartment.’ I’d done that, and I knew, I knew, that Madeleine had been abducted. I ran out into the car park, flying from end to end, yelling desperately, ‘Madeleine! Madeleine!’ It was so cold and so windy. I kept picturing her in her short-sleeved Marks and Spencer Eeyore pyjamas and feeling how chilled she would be. Bizarrely, I found myself thinking it would have been better if she’d been wearing her long-sleeved Barbie ones. Fear was shearing through my body.
In the children’s room, Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside, he made the sickening discovery that it could be raised from this side, too, not just from inside as we’d thought. (Madeleine)
If Kate was flying though the car park then she didn't see Gerry lower the shutter.
Dianne couldn't raise the shutters from the outside. Contradiction alert! Shutters were down not up when Dianne arrived. Shutters were down not up when the police arrived.
I wonder if somebody else was flying though the car park because it leads you to the wasteland and then to the Smiths sighting &%+((£
First I've heard of anyone flying through car parks. Funnily enough Mrs Carpenter heard someone calling 'Madeleine', but between 9.15 and 9.30pm. &%+((£
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First I've heard of anyone flying through car parks. Funnily enough Mrs Carpenter heard someone calling 'Madeleine', but between 9.15 and 9.30pm. &%+((£
Flying through the car parks lead you to the Smith sighting. It only takes 2 minutes to get there at that speed 8(>((
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I think what PF and I have shown, although we disagree on the finer detail, is that within the timeframe suggested by the witnesses that there was indeed time for Gerry to have been the Smith's Smithman.
You think do you? Well I disagree, and it seems so did the PJ and so do the Met - pity they didn't have Faithlilly Holmes and PF Watson on the case, eh? @)(++(*
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Flying through the car parks lead you to the Smith sighting. It only takes 2 minutes to get there at that speed 8(>((
If the Tapas employees and Mrs Carpenter were right and the alarm was raised earlier than 10pm, there was time to stroll to the Smith sighting. @)(++(*
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First I've heard of anyone flying through car parks. Funnily enough Mrs Carpenter heard someone calling 'Madeleine', but between 9.15 and 9.30pm. &%+((£
We really do not know what Mrs Carpenter may or may not have heard. Unless you have seen a statement from her to that effect ??
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We really do not know what Mrs Carpenter may or may not have heard. Unless you have seen a statement from her to that effect ??
So her husband made it up? Putting words inher mouth? Interesting...
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So her husband made it up? Putting words inher mouth? Interesting...
Misrepresentation is possibly interesting in your world in mine it is thought to be a trifle underhand.
No-one knows what Mrs Carpenter said in her statement ... and she did make one ... for the simple reason the files posted on the internet by Levy are incomplete.
Maybe you know better?
Statements missing from UK holiday makers:
Stephen Carpenter
Original statement taken on 17th May 2007 by a UK Police Officer:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
Carolyn Carpenter
Rogatory interview not included in DVD:
2. Page 18 Interview Carolyn Elizabeth CARPENTER, she was interviewed on 21st April 2008, the interview was recorded on DVD, please see enclosed 1 copy of the transcript, 1 copy of the DVD, 1 copy of her statement and a copy of the Detective's statement evidencing the interview.
Carolyn Carpenter page 18
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
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Misrepresentation is possibly interesting in your world in mine it is thought to be a trifle underhand.
No-one knows what Mrs Carpenter said in her statement ... and she did make one ... for the simple reason the files posted on the internet by Levy are incomplete.
Maybe you know better?
Statements missing from UK holiday makers:
Stephen Carpenter
Original statement taken on 17th May 2007 by a UK Police Officer:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
Carolyn Carpenter
Rogatory interview not included in DVD:
2. Page 18 Interview Carolyn Elizabeth CARPENTER, she was interviewed on 21st April 2008, the interview was recorded on DVD, please see enclosed 1 copy of the transcript, 1 copy of the DVD, 1 copy of her statement and a copy of the Detective's statement evidencing the interview.
Carolyn Carpenter page 18
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
You DO lose most possibility of anyone trying to read your posts' potential value when you start them so condescendingly and presumptiously about others and being downright hostile, maybe have a cup of chamomile, does wonders..if that doesnt work, try pondering on the question "who made you the pope"? That might bring up some interesting answers for you,more so than speculating and casting aspersions about MY WORLD
Now, what were you saying about mr and mrs carpenter and mr levy?
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We really do not know what Mrs Carpenter may or may not have heard. Unless you have seen a statement from her to that effect ??
No, I haven't. Strangely neither of the Carpenter's statements of 17th May are in the PJ Files.
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No, I haven't. Strangely neither of the Carpenter's statements of 17th May are in the PJ Files.
Think that may be due to Leicester police and not scurrilous journos being deceptive and deciding what might be "unhelpful" in their evil agenda
LOL
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Think that may be due to Leicester police and not scurrilous journos being deceptive and deciding what might be "unhelpful" in their evil agenda
LOL
The statements were not sent directly to the PJ. They were sent to UKCA by Leicester police.
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The statements were not sent directly to the PJ. They were sent to UKCA by Leicester police.
Ok
Who is ukca? and how does this effect people and their arguments who question what is in the pj files on the net
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Ok
Who is ukca? and how does this effect people and their arguments who question what is in the pj files on the net
Some of the stuff collected by Leicester police was sent directly to the PJ when they were working together originally. Other stuff, requested by Rogatory requests was sent to a division of the Home Office, the UK Central Authority, responsible for dealing with requests for legal assistance in criminal matters from other countries. Caroline Carpenter's rogatory interview was sent to this department by Leicester police. It was then up to the UKCA to send it to the Portuguese Attorney General in Lisbon.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FRANCES_KENNAH.htm
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Some of the stuff collected by Leicester police was sent directly to the PJ when they were working together originally. Other stuff, requested by Rogatory requests was sent to a division of the Home Office, the UK Central Authority, responsible for dealing with requests for legal assistance in criminal matters from other countries. Caroline Carpenter's rogatory interview was sent to this department by Leicester police. It was then up to the UKCA to send it to the Portuguese Attorney General in Lisbon.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FRANCES_KENNAH.htm
Thanks g unit.very interesting..bit quiet tonight lol, bye for now
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So her husband made it up? Putting words inher mouth? Interesting...
What is interesting Mercury, is the fact that three very impoortant witnesses have their statements missing.
These people could verify times the search began .... and even more importantly that they saw Gerry Mccann searching.
Neil Berry and Raj talked with Gerry, from the balcony of their flat, as he searched for Madeleine. WHY have those witness statements gone missing?
They are PROOF that Gerry was there searching .... and he couldn't be there and elsewhere as so many of you imply , could he? WHY are THOSE statements missing? They rather messed up Amarals theory, didn't they?
Stephen Carpenter and Carolyn Carpenters statements
To have only a third party statement about what another person saw is not good enough. Stephen Carpenter saying that his wife Caroline heard Madeleine being called is not sufficient. He could have jumped to conclusions about the time she heard the calling..... we just dont know
... And we all know about the inaccuracies of Chinese Whispers. Here we have three people involved, Carolyn, Stephen and the Police Officer who recorded the desciption ... three chances for inaccuracies. Not good enough
Carolyn, Raj and Neil each could prove that Gerry was there searching
Had the Mccanns been charged, these missing statements could have caused untold damage to The Mccanns
However, my bet is that SY will have interviewed Carolyne, Raj and Neil, so will know the truth.
This may be one of the main reasons that they do NOT think the Mccanns "dunit". They, SY, probably KNOW that Gerry was there searching.
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There are lots of "missing" statements in the files....I doubt any have "deliberately" gone "missing"
It is perplexing though why some statements are there and others aren't but I think you're in danger of jumping to conclusions by considering it a conspiracy, I would hedge my bets on human errors and maybe as G Unit told me on another thread, its up to the ukca what was sent to Portugal.
And how you came to the conclusion that certain statements were "hidden" just to hide the fact that Gerald Mccann was out searchng for his child is beyond me. People are normally too busy to spend their days being Machiavellians.
Eta
I don't see how Stephen Carpenter's statement can be taken in any bad light whatsoever, so perplexed there too
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There are lots of "missing" statements in the files....I doubt any have "deliberately" gone "missing"
It is perplexing though why some statements are there and others aren't but I think you're in danger of jumping to conclusions by considering it a conspiracy, I would hedge my bets on human errors and maybe as G Unit tood me on another thread, its up to the ukca what was sent to Portugal.
And how you came to the conclusion that certain statements were "hidden" just to hide the fact that Gerald Mccann was out searchng for his child is beyond me. People are normally too busy to spend their days being Machiavellians.
Nobody on here is more busy than I am at the moment.
It is VERY STRANGE that the only statements that could prove that Gerry WAS SEARCHING, have gone missing
All three of them !
Only three and they have all gone ! Few others are missing out of a multitude, but the only three that help Gerry ARE MISSING.
What is wrong with pointing that out?
You protesteth too much, it seems to me. £4%4%
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Darling the only one protesting is you
You also need to prove statements have "gone missing" as if they were there in the first place
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Darling the only one protesting is you
You also need to prove statements have "gone missing" as if they were there in the first place
Dearest,
My voice counts, the same as yours.
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
N.B. I have included all the missing files from people staying at Ocean Club.
These are the only files that could have placed Gerry searching at 10pm, or have given the time the searching began
Note: Pages 293 - 300 are missing from the DVD.
Further documents missing from the DVD. WITH THANKS TO INES
Statements missing from UK holiday makers:
Stephen Carpenter
Original statement taken on 17th May 2007 by a UK Police Officer:
Stephen Carpenter original
Rajinder Balu.
Rogatory statement refers to ?original statements?:
Rajinder Balu. original
Neil Berry
Rogatory statement refers to ?original statement?:
Neil Berry original
Carolyn Carpenter
Rogatory interview not included in DVD:
2. Page 18 Interview Carolyn Elizabeth CARPENTER, she was interviewed on 21st April 2008, the interview was recorded on DVD, please see enclosed 1 copy of the transcript, 1 copy of the DVD, 1 copy of her statement and a copy of the
Detective's statement evidencing the interview.
Carolyn Carpenter page 18
So, the ONLY missing files from British holidaymakers actually staying at Ocean Club, are those which COULD HAVE PROVED that Gerry WAS searching at about 10pm. Something that is much disputed by some who have no actual knowledge .... but prefer to guess.
Big co-incidence that only those files are missing, dont you think?
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There are lots of "missing" statements in the files....I doubt any have "deliberately" gone "missing"
It is perplexing though why some statements are there and others aren't but I think you're in danger of jumping to conclusions by considering it a conspiracy, I would hedge my bets on human errors and maybe as G Unit told me on another thread, its up to the ukca what was sent to Portugal.
And how you came to the conclusion that certain statements were "hidden" just to hide the fact that Gerald Mccann was out searchng for his child is beyond me. People are normally too busy to spend their days being Machiavellians.
Eta
I don't see how Stephen Carpenter's statement can be taken in any bad light whatsoever, so perplexed there too
As far as Stephen Carpenter's statement of what he witnessed goes it is fine. As far as what he said about what Mrs Carpenter witnessed ... that is hearsay.
I am surprised you are unable to make that differentiation.
It has always been known that some information has been withheld from publication because of its sensitivity; one doubts if Mrs Carpenter's statement falls into that category.
Is it your assertion that ukca were selective in the witness interviews forwarded to the lead authority? I doubt it ... but I guess that only Levy would be able to inform us of exactly what his editorial position may have been at the time ... then would we be able to believe a word of what he has to say?
17 Processos Vol XVII Pages 4692 - 4706
WITH THANKS TO INES
4692 to 4706 - Letter to the Tribunal from lawyers acting for ACPO
Letter from lawyers representing British police forces requesting that certain documentation from UK police files be withheld from the DVD for public release.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
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It is strange. I can't find any rogatory requests from Portugal for the Carpenters to be interviewed, but they were. It seems clear that the PJ have Neil Berry and Raj Balu's first statements as they refer to them in the rogatory requests, but they haven't made them public, just their rogatory interviews.
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It is strange. I can't find any rogatory requests from Portugal for the Carpenters to be interviewed, but they were. It seems clear that the PJ have Neil Berry and Raj Balu's first statements as they refer to them in the rogatory requests, but they haven't made them public, just their rogatory interviews.
The files can't tell us everything and sometimes snippets are dispersed throughout ... for example, logic tells us that former occupants of the apartment would have their DNA taken, but that is not mentioned in their witness statements, it is however confirmed in Lowe's report as are the samples taken from Berry and Balu.
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I wonder how far back with previous occupants the police would need to go before they were sure they hadn't 'missed' anyone ?
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The files can't tell us everything and sometimes snippets are dispersed throughout ... for example, logic tells us that former occupants of the apartment would have their DNA taken, but that is not mentioned in their witness statements, it is however confirmed in Lowe's report as are the samples taken from Berry and Balu.
Actually makes you wonder how often that apartment was cleaned, or bedding washed.
After every Tom, dick and Harry trapsed in and out after the McCanns were moved. 3/4 family's stayed in the apartment. The Saliva found on bedding, from one of these families. Yet we are led to believe only Kates prints were found, 3 months later.
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Nobody on here is more busy than I am at the moment.
It is VERY STRANGE that the only statements that could prove that Gerry WAS SEARCHING, have gone missing
All three of them !
Only three and they have all gone ! Few others are missing out of a multitude, but the only three that help Gerry ARE MISSING.
What is wrong with pointing that out?
You protesteth too much, it seems to me. £4%4%
Caroline Carpenter went home at 9.30pm with her husband. Don't suppose she saw Gerald at all, searching or not.
Raj Balu rogatory;
After 22:00 we were still sitting on the veranda in the Berry apartment. We heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches. I cannot add any more details save those which have already been given in this testimony.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm
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Actually makes you wonder how often that apartment was cleaned, or bedding washed.
After every Tom, dick and Harry trapsed in and out after the McCanns were moved. 3/4 family's stayed in the apartment. The Saliva found on bedding, from one of these families. Yet we are led to believe only Kates prints were found, 3 months later.
Saliva on the bedding was from a previous occupant. Fingerprints were taken on the night, not three months alter. I thought you had the files (the real ones)?
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Saliva on the bedding was from a previous occupant. Fingerprints were taken on the night, not three months alter. I thought you had the files (the real ones)?
If she had she'd be able to provide proof of the note that stated the McCanns and their friends were leaving their children in the apartment, as mentioned by Kate in her book.
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If she had she'd be able to provide proof of the note that stated the McCanns and their friends were leaving their children in the apartment, as mentioned by Kate in her book.
I'll never understand why people claim to 'know' things and then don't deliver. What's the point?
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Saliva on the bedding was from a previous occupant. Fingerprints were taken on the night, not three months alter. I thought you had the files (the real ones)?
Don't think I would be too happy sleeping in bedding that had not been washed after a previous occupant and I have commented on the paucity of fingerprints lifted by the technician on the 4th.
One wonders at the undue haste with which the apartment was allowed to be let out to other occupants.
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I'll never understand why people claim to 'know' things and then don't deliver. What's the point?
Me neither. Perhaps DCI will come up with the goods yet but if past experience is anything to go by I very much doubt it.
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Don't think I would be too happy sleeping in bedding that had not been washed after a previous occupant and I have commented on the paucity of fingerprints lifted by the technician on the 4th.
One wonders at the undue haste with which the apartment was allowed to be let out to other occupants.
I wonder how many times we have haha. It's like posh restaurants; the things that go on behind the scenes would make your hair curl. Tip; if you leave food salt it heavily so it can't be re-used! I think they fingerprinted mainly the window & patio doors, didn't they, entrance and exit points.
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I wonder how many times we have haha. It's like posh restaurants; the things that go on behind the scenes would make your hair curl. Tip; if you leave food salt it heavily so it can't be re-used! I think they fingerprinted mainly the window & patio doors, didn't they, entrance and exit points.
Didn't they finger print the front door? The obvious way in.
And how about the patio door to the Mccanns bedroom. Didn't they fingerprint them?
Shoddy work if they didn't
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I wonder how many times we have haha. It's like posh restaurants; the things that go on behind the scenes would make your hair curl. Tip; if you leave food salt it heavily so it can't be re-used! I think they fingerprinted mainly the window & patio doors, didn't they, entrance and exit points.
There were five usable prints lifted from the interior glass of the bedroom window.
Two were identified as belonging to Dr McCann. The other three were put there by someone ... wonder who that might have been?
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Saliva on the bedding was from a previous occupant. Fingerprints were taken on the night, not three months alter. I thought you had the files (the real ones)?
Do you read posts, before jumping?
I said
After every Tom, dick and Harry trapsed in and out after the McCanns were moved. 3/4 family's stayed in the apartment. The Saliva found on bedding, from one of these families. Yet we are led to believe only Kates prints were found, 3 months later.
I do have the files, you can please yourself, what you believe. Ask a friend with the DVD's to Check out the final report, and see what is missing, compared to what's on line.
No good me posting it, you wouldn't believe it.
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Me neither. Perhaps DCI will come up with the goods yet but if past experience is anything to go by I very much doubt it.
Who's the one with form for lying, Faith?. It ain't me sunshine!
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Do you read posts, before jumping?
I said
After every Tom, dick and Harry trapsed in and out after the McCanns were moved. 3/4 family's stayed in the apartment. The Saliva found on bedding, from one of these families. Yet we are led to believe only Kates prints were found, 3 months later.
I do have the files, you can please yourself, what you believe. Ask a friend with the DVD's to Check out the final report, and see what is missing, compared to what's on line.
No good me posting it, you wouldn't believe it.
Sorry, your post isn't very clear. I thought you were saying that the saliva came from one of the families who stayed in the apartment after the McCanns. I also thought you said Kate's fingerprints were found three months later.
Obviously if someone says they have something but don't produce it when asked people will conclude they haven't got it. Be brave and show me the note on the Tapas restaurant book. go on!
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There were five usable prints lifted from the interior glass of the bedroom window.
Two were identified as belonging to Dr McCann. The other three were put there by someone ... wonder who that might have been?
The people who came to fix the 'broken' shutters Kate complained about previously. Gerry and Diane?
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The people who came to fix the 'broken' shutters Kate complained about previously. Gerry and Diane?
Did they not think to take fingerprints from Gerry and Dianne?
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The people who came to fix the 'broken' shutters Kate complained about previously. Gerry and Diane?
There were several sets of shutters. Which ones were repaired?
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The people who came to fix the 'broken' shutters Kate complained about previously. Gerry and Diane?
Hmmm ... not the shutters ... the inside of the window pane ... five prints, two identified, leaving three unidentified prints.
Presuming the PJ took Gerry and Diane's prints for comparison purposes, the prints are obviously not theirs.
Another conundrum is, why weren't their prints found on the shutters which both claim to have touched.
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There were five usable prints lifted from the interior glass of the bedroom window.
Two were identified as belonging to Dr McCann. The other three were put there by someone ... wonder who that might have been?
I read it as all five belonging to Kate McCann, three from her middle finger and two from her index finger;
VESTIGES COLLECTED
5….. Fingerprints….Inside interior window of the children’s bedroom…..DBT…..Suf
Observations: The fingerprint traces collected are identified as being the middle finger of the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), of the missing girl’s mother,
Side of the patio door: One adequate print recovered but not matched to known persons.
- Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.- Outside of the external blinds to the children's bedroom: three inadequate prints were recovered.
C - Pages 1470-07, 1498 Processo vol 6 Various Interpol communications from police in eight countries around the world re: comparison of fingerprints with those retained in the databases of those countries
Several prints were unusable for comparison purposes; all others were compared with no results.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
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Hmmm ... not the shutters ... the inside of the window pane ... five prints, two identified, leaving three unidentified prints.
Presuming the PJ took Gerry and Diane's prints for comparison purposes, the prints are obviously not theirs.
Another conundrum is, why weren't their prints found on the shutters which both claim to have touched.
Well, whoever the prints belong to they didn't belong to the 500 38 people of interest SY wanted to Arrest with imminent charges being brought.. ( gosh it seems a lifetime away we heard that)...SY would have arranged to have those peoples prints and have them tested.
Yes? No? don't know?
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There were several sets of shutters. Which ones were repaired?
The ones in the parent's bedroom.
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Well, whoever the prints belong to they didn't belong to the 500 38 people of interest SY wanted to Arrest with imminent charges being brought.. ( gosh it seems a lifetime away we heard that)...SY would have arranged to have those peoples prints and have them tested.
Yes? No? don't know?
Glad you have finally got it that there is forensic evidence from the apartment which was not identified at the time.
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Sorry, your post isn't very clear. I thought you were saying that the saliva came from one of the families who stayed in the apartment after the McCanns. I also thought you said Kate's fingerprints were found three months later.
Obviously if someone says they have something but don't produce it when asked people will conclude they haven't got it. Be brave and show me the note on the Tapas restaurant book. go on!
Here you are GU. Will leave on for 5 minutes.
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Glad you have finally got it that there is forensic evidence from the apartment which was not identified at the time.
Glad you are glad that I am glad. However, what is your point exactly about the prints? There is N O forensic evidence to place an 'abductor' near those shutters/whooshing curtains.
Fact: there is no independent witness who saw little Maddie after Kate took them home. Time lines and whooshings don't matter because it cannot be established WHEN Maddie disappeared now can it?...
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Here you are GU. Will leave on for 5 minutes.
*&*%£ *&*%£
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Now the book is banned, albeit temporarily, how will it be stopped on the internet, where it is widely available, and in all due probability, will continue to be read ?
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*&*%£ *&*%£
I take it you missed the photo?
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Glad you are glad that I am glad. However, what is your point exactly about the prints? There is N O forensic evidence to place an 'abductor' near those shutters/whooshing curtains.
Fact: there is no independent witness who saw little Maddie after Kate took them home. Time lines and whooshings don't matter because it cannot be established WHEN Maddie disappeared now can it?...
According to the FSS report there is forensic evidence which was collected in apartment 5A which has not been traced to a donor ... you will not find a better witness than a forensic sample.
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According to the FSS report there is forensic evidence which was collected in apartment 5A which has not been traced to a donor ... you will not find a better witness than a forensic sample.
Remind us what contributed to the convictions of the Maguire Seven being declared unsafe.
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Glad you are glad that I am glad. However, what is your point exactly about the prints? There is N O forensic evidence to place an 'abductor' near those shutters/whooshing curtains.
Fact: there is no independent witness who saw little Maddie after Kate took them home. Time lines and whooshings don't matter because it cannot be established WHEN Maddie disappeared now can it?...
Exactly. Madeleine disappeared after 5:30 and the many contradictions from the last witness at 6:30 will have any investigator intrigued. He was out. No I was in. I was only wearing a towel. I can't remember what she was wearing but the kids looked like happy angels. Not good quality.
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Remind us what contributed to the convictions of the Maguire Seven being declared unsafe.
I wasn't aware that playing cards or soap were relevant to the forensics left in Madeleine McCann's case, I indicated unidentified fingerprints not to speak of unidentified hair and DNA samples.
Convictions in cases like the one you indicated placing reliance on ephemerals such as odours with no physical evidence to back them up ... a situation some have demanded in relation to the McCanns ... I think you have agreed is an unsafe thing to do.
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Who's the one with form for lying, Faith?. It ain't me sunshine!
So you'll have a page reference and a screenshot of the note then DCI if, indeed, there ever was a note and if, indeed, you have all the files ?
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Remind us what contributed to the convictions of the Maguire Seven being declared unsafe.
I think Shirley McKie, a Scottish police detective would also disagree.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_McKie
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I wasn't aware that playing cards or soap were relevant to the forensics left in Madeleine McCann's case, I indicated unidentified fingerprints not to speak of unidentified hair and DNA samples.
Convictions in cases like the one you indicated placing reliance on ephemerals such as odours with no physical evidence to back them up ... a situation some have demanded in relation to the McCanns ... I think you have agreed is an unsafe thing to do.
Best then to qualify your statements rather than make sweeping generalizations would you not agree.
Hint : the bullshit baffles brains may work with others but not with me 8(0(*. You see, another hint coming up; when you want to get your point over use short words in short punchy sentences. When someone calls a spade a horticultural implement I generally start to nod off cos I know what's coming to whit someone is going to try to flim flam me.
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Dearest,
My voice counts, the same as yours.
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
N.B. I have included all the missing files from people staying at Ocean Club.
These are the only files that could have placed Gerry searching at 10pm, or have given the time the searching began
Note: Pages 293 - 300 are missing from the DVD.
Further documents missing from the DVD. WITH THANKS TO INES
Statements missing from UK holiday makers:
Stephen Carpenter
Original statement taken on 17th May 2007 by a UK Police Officer:
Stephen Carpenter original
Rajinder Balu.
Rogatory statement refers to ?original statements?:
Rajinder Balu. original
Neil Berry
Rogatory statement refers to ?original statement?:
Neil Berry original
Carolyn Carpenter
Rogatory interview not included in DVD:
2. Page 18 Interview Carolyn Elizabeth CARPENTER, she was interviewed on 21st April 2008, the interview was recorded on DVD, please see enclosed 1 copy of the transcript, 1 copy of the DVD, 1 copy of her statement and a copy of the
Detective's statement evidencing the interview.
Carolyn Carpenter page 18
So, the ONLY missing files from British holidaymakers actually staying at Ocean Club, are those which COULD HAVE PROVED that Gerry WAS searching at about 10pm. Something that is much disputed by some who have no actual knowledge .... but prefer to guess.
Big co-incidence that only those files are missing, dont you think?
Yes we know, you have said it three times now, and no, I don't consider it suspicious as I explained before. The comment I made on here when I got involved in the discussion, was about people suggesting Mr Carpenter being wrong about what his wife said. That cannot be taken as a given.
PS there are other British holidaymakers' statements "missing" from the files. IMO this is down to the British police, either through not wanting them in there or by not sending them in the first place, ie Tannerman the Crecheman being one example.
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Best then to qualify your statements rather than make sweeping generalizations would you not agree.
Hint : the bullshit baffles brains may work with others but not with me 8(0(*. You see, another hint coming up; when you want to get your point over use short words in short punchy sentences. When someone calls a spade a horticultural implement I generally start to nod off cos I know what's coming to whit someone is going to try to flim flam me.
My, my we do seem to be getting a little hot under the collar ?>)()<
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Yes we know, you have said it three times now, and no, I don't consider it suspicious as I explained before. The comment I made on here when I got involved in the discussion, was about people suggesting Mr Carpenter being wrong about what his wife said. That cannot be taken as a given.
PS there are other British holidaymakers' statements "missing" from the files. IMO this is down to the British police, either through not wanting them in there or by not sending them in the first place, ie Tannerman the Crecheman being one example.
Nor can what Mrs Carpenter actually said in her statement be taken as a given ... that is a rather arrogant presumption to make.
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My, my we do seem to be getting a little hot under the collar ?>)()<
No just my normal rather blunt self. Being hot under the collar is counterproductive and lacking in objectivity. I much prefer in cold blood to red haze.
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As far as Stephen Carpenter's statement of what he witnessed goes it is fine. As far as what he said about what Mrs Carpenter witnessed ... that is hearsay.
I am surprised you are unable to make that differentiation.
It has always been known that some information has been withheld from publication because of its sensitivity; one doubts if Mrs Carpenter's statement falls into that category.
Is it your assertion that ukca were selective in the witness interviews forwarded to the lead authority? I doubt it ... but I guess that only Levy would be able to inform us of exactly what his editorial position may have been at the time ... then would we be able to believe a word of what he has to say?
17 Processos Vol XVII Pages 4692 - 4706
WITH THANKS TO INES
4692 to 4706 - Letter to the Tribunal from lawyers acting for ACPO
Letter from lawyers representing British police forces requesting that certain documentation from UK police files be withheld from the DVD for public release.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
I don't see how Mr Carpenter's relaying of what his wife said at a certain time doesn't count as part of "what he witnessed", as if, somehow, one's ears do not carry the same weight as one's eyes when memory is recalled, but not to worry, I've forgotten the reason why some don't want to count Mrs Carpenter's words as important
Regarding your question, no, I made no assertion
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No just my normal rather blunt self. Being hot under the collar is counterproductive and lacking in objectivity. I much prefer in cold blood to red haze.
Maybe when you are being your normal rather blunt self you should consider doing it on topic ... saves all those pearls of wisdom being scrubbed while wasting the mods time, and mine for being stupid enough to give you the credence of an answer.
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According to the FSS report there is forensic evidence which was collected in apartment 5A which has not been traced to a donor ... you will not find a better witness than a forensic sample.
Depends on what the sample is a witness to doesn't it. Unidentified/partial prints and DNA do not automatically mean something suspicious, especially not in a place frequented by many people
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I don't see how Mr Carpenter's relaying of what his wife said at a certain time doesn't count as part of "what he witnessed", as if, somehow, one's ears do not carry the same weight as one's eyes when memory is recalled, but not to worry, I've forgotten the reason why some don't want to count Mrs Carpenter's words as important
Regarding your question, no, I made no assertion
Must be getting late ... because that post didn't make the slightest bit of sense to me.
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Nor can what Mrs Carpenter actually said in her statement be taken as a given ... that is a rather arrogant presumption to make.
I totally agree but that wasn't the issue. Or arrogance. Or presumption.
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Depends on what the sample is a witness to doesn't it. Unidentified/partial prints and DNA do not automatically mean something suspicious, especially not in a place frequented by many people
I think they may have a particular significance in a room from which a little girl has disappeared.
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I think they may have a particular significance in a room from which a little girl has disappeared.
They may, then again, they might not. But it serves no purpose blaming police for incomplete prints or DNA.
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Yes we know, you have said it three times now, and no, I don't consider it suspicious as I explained before. The comment I made on here when I got involved in the discussion, was about people suggesting Mr Carpenter being wrong about what his wife said. That cannot be taken as a given.
PS there are other British holidaymakers' statements "missing" from the files. IMO this is down to the British police, either through not wanting them in there or by not sending them in the first place, ie Tannerman the Crecheman being one example.
I think that you will find that the only Ocean Club visitors with missing files are the ones outlined above.
And they are the crucial ones, the only ones, that can prove that Gerry was there searching at the pertinent time
Big coincidence that. The ONLY Ocean Club ones missing are the ones that could PROVE Gerry was searching
That "lost" evidence could have been very important to the case, had Gerry and Kate been charged. It could have swung the case against them.
BUT
Little doubt that SY will now have cheked things out with the relevant people. They will know the truth.
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I think that you will find that the only Ocean Club visitors with missing files are the ones outlined above.
And they are the crucial ones, the only ones, that can prove that Gerry was there searching at the pertinent time
Big coincidence that. The ONLY Ocean Club ones missing are the ones that could PROVE Gerry was searching
That "lost" evidence could have been very important to the case, had Gerry and Kate been charged. It could have swung the case against them.
BUT
Little doubt that SY will now have cheked things out with the relevant people. They will know the truth.
Who could prove Gerry was searching? Mrs Carpenter went home at 9.30pm. Berry and Balu? what could they prove?
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The Quality of Witnesses in The Case. Thank You.
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Who could prove Gerry was searching? Mrs Carpenter went home at 9.30pm. Berry and Balu? what could they prove?
Carolyn went home at 9.30,
..... but YOU are jumping to conclusions that when she heard "Madeleine Madeleine" being called was at THAT time.
Some people have VERY keen hearing and would likely hear shouting through the single thickness walls and single glazed windows, which also might be cracked open. We just dont know.
And the statements that could have verified things has mysteriously gone missing 8)-)))
Same as the statements by Neil Berry and Raj. &%+((£
All three important statements that could have verified Gerry was searching. ALL have gone missing. %56&
Sorry, Gunit, but you are jumping to conclusions. I freely admit that I jumped to the same conclusions to begin with .... until I mulled over it and realised that I didn't know the time it happened.
SY WILL know tho. They will have checked with the three peeps whose statements are missing.
ETA: Soz Eleanor. Posted before I read your words. Off now,
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"My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches." (Raj Balu)
They haven't been released not missing. After 10pm we know Gerry was out on the streets searching because he wasn't in his apartment.
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"My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches." (Raj Balu)
They haven't been released not missing. After 10pm we know Gerry was out on the streets searching because he wasn't in his apartment.
Intriguing. I wonder what that conversation was about and who it was between? The important statements which are missing imo are the Urwins and the Sperries. Due to the time their meals were booked at the Tapas on 3rd May they should have been there later than the people who were booked in earlier.
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Intriguing. I wonder what that conversation was about and who it was between? The important statements which are missing imo are the Urwins and the Sperries. Due to the time their meals were booked at the Tapas on 3rd May they should have been there later than the people who were booked in earlier.
The important thing is that Scotand Yard and the Polícia Judiciária have all these witness statements, as well as those gathered in the intervening period.
I think they will have read them all in great detail.