Author Topic: So what's next in the libel trial saga?  (Read 258333 times)

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Offline jassi

Re: So what's next in the libel trial saga?
« Reply #330 on: December 10, 2014, 02:01:43 PM »
I stand corrected. I hadn't realised that some of you accepted that she was dead. I thought you all believed she was alive and well, happily living in LaLa land.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline pegasus

Re: So what's next in the libel trial saga?
« Reply #331 on: December 10, 2014, 02:03:51 PM »
... What we all agree on ...
Really? That is news to me.

Offline Victoria

Re: So what's next in the libel trial saga?
« Reply #332 on: December 10, 2014, 02:04:28 PM »
I stand corrected. I hadn't realised that some of you accepted that she was dead. I thought you all believed she was alive and well, happily living in LaLa land.

I think you're confusing hope with belief there. Most people are realistic in accepting that she is probably dead, even, I suspect, her parents. But until it is known for sure, there is still hope that she is alive. This has always been the case, since day 1, and remains the case seven years later.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: So what's next in the libel trial saga?
« Reply #333 on: December 10, 2014, 02:05:02 PM »
If they lose (which I've no doubt they will) I hope they rise above the crowing and gloating and put it behind them. Things have move on considerably from when they started their action, and in a positive direction for the case.  There's no point wasting more money trying to get justice in Portugal, it's a bizarre system if you ask me, (which you didn't).

I seldom disagree with Alfred.

But I do on this occasion.

I think Amaral conceded defeat at the point his (then latest in a long line) of (sacked) lawyers, Santos, began proceedings with a plea that proceedings be in camera to "protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive"

I think that also makes sense of the otherwise risible notion that the trial is a "damages" trial.

I think it is, indeed, a trial to assess damage arising from either proven or admitted libel.

That is why I also do not see the saga protracted by endless and interminable appeals.

I think libel has been, either established or admitted, and the only question at issue is what damages are fitting for the damage that has caused, both to the McCanns reputation and (most important!) to the search for Madeleine.

I think the best Amaral can hope for is that learned Portuguese judges will award the McCanns damages less than those sought by the McCanns, in which case the McCanns will have to pay Amaral's expenses, as well as their own.


Offline pegasus

Re: So what's next in the libel trial saga?
« Reply #334 on: December 10, 2014, 02:07:52 PM »
On what date will the presentation of final arguments be completed?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: So what's next in the libel trial saga?
« Reply #335 on: December 10, 2014, 02:20:15 PM »
On what date will the presentation of final arguments be completed?

And in which century? ...

Offline pegasus

Re: So what's next in the libel trial saga?
« Reply #336 on: December 10, 2014, 02:52:47 PM »
So would it now be prohibited for either side to introduce new evidence?

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: So what's next in the libel trial saga?
« Reply #337 on: December 10, 2014, 03:09:10 PM »
I stand corrected. I hadn't realised that some of you accepted that she was dead. I thought you all believed she was alive and well, happily living in LaLa land.
I've stated many times on this forum that I think she is likely dead.  I haven't accepted  that she IS dead though.  I think there is a (very slim) possibility that she may be alive.  Your comment is cheap and a little bit spiteful IMO.  Why do you have to belittle those who hope for a positive outcome in this case?

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: So what's next in the libel trial saga?
« Reply #338 on: December 10, 2014, 03:12:59 PM »
Really? That is news to me.
I have no idea what you believe so you weren't included in my sweeping statement.  But as a rule most McCann supporters (I presume you are not one!) don't think too highly of Amaral's professional capabilities. Do you dispute this?

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: So what's next in the libel trial saga?
« Reply #339 on: December 10, 2014, 03:35:26 PM »
I seldom disagree with Alfred.

But I do on this occasion.

I think Amaral conceded defeat at the point his (then latest in a long line) of (sacked) lawyers, Santos, began proceedings with a plea that proceedings be in camera to "protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive"

I think that also makes sense of the otherwise risible notion that the trial is a "damages" trial.

I think it is, indeed, a trial to assess damage arising from either proven or admitted libel.

That is why I also do not see the saga protracted by endless and interminable appeals.

I think libel has been, either established or admitted, and the only question at issue is what damages are fitting for the damage that has caused, both to the McCanns reputation and (most important!) to the search for Madeleine.

I think the best Amaral can hope for is that learned Portuguese judges will award the McCanns damages less than those sought by the McCanns, in which case the McCanns will have to pay Amaral's expenses, as well as their own.
My understanding is that the McCanns are suing Amaral for libel damages, that they have done so and have been encouraged to do so (perhaps?) despite the fact that the book was adjudged not to be libellous under Portuguese Law (don't ask me why, that's just PT law for you,) an action they took at a time when they were desperate to get the case into their daughter's disappearance re-looked at by the authorities in Portugal.  They knew that all the while the Portuguese were convinced that Amaral's version of events was correct that they didn't stand a hope in hell of this ever happening, so this was their best chance to get people in PT to re-think the case, to be more vigilant to the fact that Madeleine may still be alive and not so certain that she is dead (as Amaral has always vigorously campaigned).

One can understand why they took this action, but I think it was high risk, and now we have moved on, the PT authorities ARE looking at alternative theories to the 'parents dunnit' theory and the Met are on board too,  so victory in this libel case is now less essential to them to the prospect of resolving the case of missing Madeleine.  Their likely defeat will give the "sceptics" much to rejoice over, but the thrill of victory and the opportunity for huge amounts of online gloating is pretty much all it will give them.  Their ultimate fantasy of seeing the McCanns locked up will still be as far away and unlikely to be realised as ever. 

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: So what's next in the libel trial saga?
« Reply #340 on: December 10, 2014, 03:56:31 PM »
My understanding is that the McCanns are suing Amaral for libel damages, that they have done so and have been encouraged to do so (perhaps?) despite the fact that the book was adjudged not to be libellous under Portuguese Law (don't ask me why, that's just PT law for you,) an action they took at a time when they were desperate to get the case into their daughter's disappearance re-looked at by the authorities in Portugal.  They knew that all the while the Portuguese were convinced that Amaral's version of events was correct that they didn't stand a hope in hell of this ever happening, so this was their best chance to get people in PT to re-think the case, to be more vigilant to the fact that Madeleine may still be alive and not so certain that she is dead (as Amaral has always vigorously campaigned).

One can understand why they took this action, but I think it was high risk, and now we have moved on, the PT authorities ARE looking at alternative theories to the 'parents dunnit' theory and the Met are on board too,  so victory in this libel case is now less essential to them to the prospect of resolving the case of missing Madeleine.  Their likely defeat will give the "sceptics" much to rejoice over, but the thrill of victory and the opportunity for huge amounts of online gloating is pretty much all it will give them.  Their ultimate fantasy of seeing the McCanns locked up will still be as far away and unlikely to be realised as ever.

I've read the whole of your post, but wanted to focus on the bit I underline, which isn't quite right.

Libel has not been judged at all in proceedings so far over the injunction on Amaral's book.

Rather, that was a dispute over conflicting guarantees of the Portuguese Constitution, one that guarantees freedom of expression; another that guarantees the right of citizens to a good name.

The first decision was that the McCanns' right to a good name should supersede Amaral's right to freedom of expression, upheld on (first) appeal; but overturned on subsequent appeal, in favour of Amaral's right to free speech. 

That (ex-parte!) ruling also (perversely) found that Amaral's conclusion are solidly based on the case files (they are not)!

But until the (protracted) libel trial, the question of libel had simply not been considered, and (now) I firmly believe that the erroneousness of the final ruling on the injunction that Amaral's conclusions are based on the case-files has been completely exposed.

I am very hopeful that the result will go the McCanns' way; indeed, I believe that libel was conceded at the outset.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: So what's next in the libel trial saga?
« Reply #341 on: December 10, 2014, 04:09:28 PM »
I've read the whole of your post, but wanted to focus on the bit I underline, which isn't quite right.

Libel has not been judged at all in proceedings so far over the injunction on Amaral's book.

Rather, that was a dispute over conflicting guarantees of the Portuguese Constitution, one that guarantees freedom of expression; another that guarantees the right of citizens to a good name.

The first decision was that the McCanns' right to a good name should supersede Amaral's right to freedom of expression, upheld on (first) appeal; but overturned on subsequent appeal, in favour of Amaral's right to free speech. 

That (ex-parte!) ruling also (perversely) found that Amaral's conclusion are solidly based on the case files (they are not)!

But until the (protracted) libel trial, the question of libel had simply not been considered, and (now) I firmly believe that the erroneousness of the final ruling on the injunction that Amaral's conclusions are based on the case-files has been completely exposed.

I am very hopeful that the result will go the McCanns' way; indeed, I believe that libel was conceded at the outset.
That being the case what have they been discussing in court for the last 5 years?  The size of the pay-out? 

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: So what's next in the libel trial saga?
« Reply #342 on: December 10, 2014, 04:11:22 PM »
That being the case what have they been discussing in court for the last 5 years?  The size of the pay-out?

In between Amaral's prevarications and delays, yes, I believe so ...

Offline jassi

Re: So what's next in the libel trial saga?
« Reply #343 on: December 10, 2014, 04:12:37 PM »
Have you read anything about payout in the court proceedings?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: So what's next in the libel trial saga?
« Reply #344 on: December 10, 2014, 04:17:55 PM »
Have you read anything about payout in the court proceedings?

I am not conversant with the fine details of payouts, but I am aware that, generally, they are a lot lower in Portugal than in the UK.