Goncalo Amaral.

[Mr Gray]

Didn’t you just say ‘ I'm sure the McCanns were interviewed by SY as witnesses...the fact I cant prove it doesnt mean  it didnt happen’

Surely that’s faulty logic ?

Look at the context

[faithlilly]

Look at the context

Nope that doesn’t work.

Hoisted by your own petard.

Comedy gold.

[Robittybob1]

Nope that doesn’t work.

Hoisted by your own petard.

Comedy gold.

"Hoist with his own petard" is a phrase from a speech in William Shakespeare's play Hamlet that has become proverbial. The phrase's meaning is literally that a bomb-maker is blown up ("hoist" off the ground) by his own bomb (a "petard" is a small explosive device), and indicates an ironic reversal, or poetic justice.[1]"

I was thinking a petard was a rope of some sort.

A petard is a small bomb used for blowing up gates and walls when breaching fortifications. It is of French origin and dates back to the 16th century. A typical petard was a conical or rectangular metal device containing 2–3 kg of gunpowder, with a slow match for a fuse. Wikipedia

[Eleanor]

"Hoist with his own petard" is a phrase from a speech in William Shakespeare's play Hamlet that has become proverbial. The phrase's meaning is literally that a bomb-maker is blown up ("hoist" off the ground) by his own bomb (a "petard" is a small explosive device), and indicates an ironic reversal, or poetic justice.[1]"

I was thinking a petard was a rope of some sort.

A petard is a small bomb used for blowing up gates and walls when breaching fortifications. It is of French origin and dates back to the 16th century. A typical petard was a conical or rectangular metal device containing 2–3 kg of gunpowder, with a slow match for a fuse. Wikipedia

Interesting.  I didn't know that.  I thought a Petard was a rope.

[Brietta]

That's not the point. The point is when the Met became involved.

That may be an important point as far as you are concerned but the genesis of the present investigation was in 2010 when the Home Secretary ordered a scoping exercise on Madeleine's case ... the result of which was the review which in turn resulted in Madeleine's case being reopened.

Part of the justification used initially by Madeleine's parents to get that far was the revelation at Amaral's libel trial by Ricardo Paiva that information continued to be sent to the Judicial Police and the (in)action taken by him was to file it as 'not relevant'.
The judge ordered the information to be passed to the McCann legal team and from thereon in it is history.

But from the archiving of Madeleine's case in 2008 until Amaral's libel trial in 2010 ... nothing was done in the case of a missing child  by the agency in charge of her case despite information still coming in, including from the detectives hired by her parents.

[faithlilly]

That may be an important point as far as you are concerned but the genesis of the present investigation was in 2010 when the Home Secretary ordered a scoping exercise on Madeleine's case ... the result of which was the review which in turn resulted in Madeleine's case being reopened.

Part of the justification used initially by Madeleine's parents to get that far was the revelation at Amaral's libel trial by Ricardo Paiva that information continued to be sent to the Judicial Police and the (in)action taken by him was to file it as 'not relevant'.
The judge ordered the information to be passed to the McCann legal team and from thereon in it is history.

But from the archiving of Madeleine's case in 2008 until Amaral's libel trial in 2010 ... nothing was done in the case of a missing child  by the agency in charge of her case despite information still coming in, including from the detectives hired by her parents.

This is simply not true and I’m not quite sure why you are still claiming this.

There is  no evidence that the file passed to the parents legal team had anything to do with the decision to open the review into the case by the Met.

I believe the scoping exercise was undertaken by Alan Johnson the then Home Secretary but he did nothing with the recommendations and, according to the parents in an interview with Channel 4, neither did Theresa May, in fact they said that she had not even read the report. It was only in 2011, after a campaign by the Sun, and alleged threats that Theresa May would be put on the front pages of the newspaper for a week, that the government eventually relented and ordered the review.....a thoroughly nasty business that raised questions at Leveson.

There is no evidence that the, mostly, sightings, were not followed up by the PJ as they came in and discounted. The only information we have is the the file was marked ‘not relevant to the case’.

I have no idea why you continue to distort the truth in this way.

[Brietta]

Met Police 'bring expertise' to Madeleine McCann search
13 May 2011
The Metropolitan Police are to "bring their expertise" to the search for Madeleine McCann, the Home Office says.

Madeleine went missing aged three on holiday in Portugal in May 2007, and David Cameron has agreed to ask for a review of the case.

Met Police Authority member Lord Harris said Mr Cameron's intervention damaged the independence of the police.

But Downing Street and Scotland Yard have both denied the government ordered the force to investigate.

Scotland Yard said Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson had "received a request, which he considered, and took the decision that on balance it was the right thing to do".

A Downing Street spokesman said Mr Cameron and Home Secretary Theresa May asked the Met to review the evidence after a new plea by parents Kate and Gerry McCann from Leicestershire.

He said the case was "exceptional" and that the prime minister "has been clear that he wants to do everything he can to support the family".

'New perspective'
The McCanns said in a statement: "The expertise of the Metropolitan Police is renowned and we are reassured by our government's commitment to the search for Madeleine."

Their spokesman Clarence Mitchell added: "This is exactly what Kate and Gerry have been asking for. They wanted an independent force to examine everything, basically."

The official Portuguese inquiry into Madeleine's disappearance ended in July 2008 although private detectives hired by the McCanns have continued the search.

Home Secretary Theresa May, whose department will pay for the review, said it was hoped the Met "can bring a new perspective to the case".

A Home Office spokesman said: "Law enforcement agencies here [in the UK] have continued to follow up leads and pass information to the Portuguese authorities as appropriate."

But Lord Harris, a Labour peer who is a member of the Metropolitan Police Authority, said decisions about operational matters should be made only by senior officers.

'Worst nightmare'
He said David Cameron's intervention "drives a coach and horses through the draft protocol issued by the Home Office designed to preserve the operational independence of the police."

Writing on his blog, he said that while it was desirable to find out what had happened to Madeleine McCann, he did not think senior leadership at the Met would be happy.

"It again embroils their officers in a high-profile investigation, where the chances of success are unclear, and which will divert limited investigative resources away from other matters."

In an open letter in the Sun on Thursday, Madeleine's parents had asked Mr Cameron to launch an "independent, transparent and comprehensive" review of all information relating to the disappearance of their daughter.

In his reply, published by the same newspaper on Friday, Mr Cameron said their ordeal was "every parent's worst nightmare".

He wrote: "I simply cannot imagine the pain you must have experienced over these four agonising years, and the strength and determination you have shown throughout is remarkable.

"I have asked the home secretary to look into what more the government could do to help find Madeleine.

"She will be writing to you today, setting out new action involving the Metropolitan Police Service which we hope will help boost efforts in the search for Madeleine."

Former Home Secretary Alan Johnson commissioned a scoping exercise by the Child Exploitation and Online Protection (Ceop) centre to look at the feasibility of carrying out a review of the case.

This was completed in March 2010, but Mr McCann said current Home Secretary Theresa May refused to let him and his wife see it because it was "sensitive".

British police were involved in the Portuguese investigation from the early days.

That involvement included the Forensic Science Service carrying out testing on samples sent to their laboratories in Birmingham; and various British police forces, co-ordinated by Leicestershire police, providing translators, family liaison officers, child abduction experts and specialist sniffer dogs. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13378289


Former Home Secretary Alan Johnson commissioned a scoping exercise by the Child Exploitation and Online Protection (Ceop) centre to look at the feasibility of carrying out a review of the case.

This was completed in March 2010, but Mr McCann said current Home Secretary Theresa May refused to let him and his wife see it because it was "sensitive".
The 2010 United Kingdom general election was held on Thursday, 6 May 2010 resulting in a change of Government and a change of Home Secretary.

[G-Unit]

That may be an important point as far as you are concerned but the genesis of the present investigation was in 2010 when the Home Secretary ordered a scoping exercise on Madeleine's case ... the result of which was the review which in turn resulted in Madeleine's case being reopened.

Part of the justification used initially by Madeleine's parents to get that far was the revelation at Amaral's libel trial by Ricardo Paiva that information continued to be sent to the Judicial Police and the (in)action taken by him was to file it as 'not relevant'.
The judge ordered the information to be passed to the McCann legal team and from thereon in it is history.

But from the archiving of Madeleine's case in 2008 until Amaral's libel trial in 2010 ... nothing was done in the case of a missing child  by the agency in charge of her case despite information still coming in, including from the detectives hired by her parents.

No, I want to know why you think the Met were secretly investigating, including interviewing people, for over a year before their involvement was announced.

[Brietta]

No, I want to know why you think the Met were secretly investigating, including interviewing people, for over a year before their involvement was announced.

I want you to show me exactly where I said that.

[faithlilly]

Met Police 'bring expertise' to Madeleine McCann search
13 May 2011
The Metropolitan Police are to "bring their expertise" to the search for Madeleine McCann, the Home Office says.

Madeleine went missing aged three on holiday in Portugal in May 2007, and David Cameron has agreed to ask for a review of the case.

Met Police Authority member Lord Harris said Mr Cameron's intervention damaged the independence of the police.

But Downing Street and Scotland Yard have both denied the government ordered the force to investigate.

Scotland Yard said Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson had "received a request, which he considered, and took the decision that on balance it was the right thing to do".

A Downing Street spokesman said Mr Cameron and Home Secretary Theresa May asked the Met to review the evidence after a new plea by parents Kate and Gerry McCann from Leicestershire.

He said the case was "exceptional" and that the prime minister "has been clear that he wants to do everything he can to support the family".

'New perspective'
The McCanns said in a statement: "The expertise of the Metropolitan Police is renowned and we are reassured by our government's commitment to the search for Madeleine."

Their spokesman Clarence Mitchell added: "This is exactly what Kate and Gerry have been asking for. They wanted an independent force to examine everything, basically."

The official Portuguese inquiry into Madeleine's disappearance ended in July 2008 although private detectives hired by the McCanns have continued the search.

Home Secretary Theresa May, whose department will pay for the review, said it was hoped the Met "can bring a new perspective to the case".

A Home Office spokesman said: "Law enforcement agencies here [in the UK] have continued to follow up leads and pass information to the Portuguese authorities as appropriate."

But Lord Harris, a Labour peer who is a member of the Metropolitan Police Authority, said decisions about operational matters should be made only by senior officers.

'Worst nightmare'
He said David Cameron's intervention "drives a coach and horses through the draft protocol issued by the Home Office designed to preserve the operational independence of the police."

Writing on his blog, he said that while it was desirable to find out what had happened to Madeleine McCann, he did not think senior leadership at the Met would be happy.

"It again embroils their officers in a high-profile investigation, where the chances of success are unclear, and which will divert limited investigative resources away from other matters."

In an open letter in the Sun on Thursday, Madeleine's parents had asked Mr Cameron to launch an "independent, transparent and comprehensive" review of all information relating to the disappearance of their daughter.

In his reply, published by the same newspaper on Friday, Mr Cameron said their ordeal was "every parent's worst nightmare".

He wrote: "I simply cannot imagine the pain you must have experienced over these four agonising years, and the strength and determination you have shown throughout is remarkable.

"I have asked the home secretary to look into what more the government could do to help find Madeleine.

"She will be writing to you today, setting out new action involving the Metropolitan Police Service which we hope will help boost efforts in the search for Madeleine."

Former Home Secretary Alan Johnson commissioned a scoping exercise by the Child Exploitation and Online Protection (Ceop) centre to look at the feasibility of carrying out a review of the case.

This was completed in March 2010, but Mr McCann said current Home Secretary Theresa May refused to let him and his wife see it because it was "sensitive".

British police were involved in the Portuguese investigation from the early days.

That involvement included the Forensic Science Service carrying out testing on samples sent to their laboratories in Birmingham; and various British police forces, co-ordinated by Leicestershire police, providing translators, family liaison officers, child abduction experts and specialist sniffer dogs. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13378289


Former Home Secretary Alan Johnson commissioned a scoping exercise by the Child Exploitation and Online Protection (Ceop) centre to look at the feasibility of carrying out a review of the case.

This was completed in March 2010, but Mr McCann said current Home Secretary Theresa May refused to let him and his wife see it because it was "sensitive".
The 2010 United Kingdom general election was held on Thursday, 6 May 2010 resulting in a change of Government and a change of Home Secretary.

Which confirms exactly what I said.

Johnson commissioned a scoping exercise which Theresa May, the parents told us in a Channel 4 interview, hadn’t even read by the time she met them in late 2010. The Sun then ran a campaign, to coincide with the publication of Kate’s book, to have the case reopened.....accusations of blackmail towards Theresa May by Rebecca Brookes....and low and behold the PM commissions the review.

It was absolutely nothing to do with the file of the work which the parents had received during the libel trial and if you keep making that claim, and don’t want to appear a hypocrite, a cite will be needed.

[G-Unit]

I want you to show me exactly where I said that.

With pleasure. You seem to think the Met were able to name the crime in their remit because they were working on the case before Operation Grange was requested, announced and funded. In my opinion that's not true.

Snip/

Why are there always chosen cut off points and starting points condoning the sceptic mantra while totally ignoring the facts of everything else.

Do you really believe that someone woke up on the 12 May 2011 with the spiffing idea that Madeleine had been abducted.

I find it grossly insulting that you choose to ignore the work that went into Madeleine's case which justified the conclusion and therefore the remit arrived at that Madeleine had been abducted and neither her parents nor their friends were persons of interest in that abduction.

Unlike Amaral the Met officers did not have the luxury of deciding the outcome prior to knowing what the evidence was ... they spent over a year which you know absolutely nothing about studying what the evidence actually was to justify a review and even at that it took until the end of 2013 before her case was officially opened.

During that period numerous interviews took place ... not one of which you know anything about ... so to think the Met officers didn't have a firm grasp of who would and should be interviewed is in my opinion to be living in cloud cuckoo land while displaying total ignorance of police procedures which usually start at the very beginning and in this case a year before you think it did.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11381.msg611693#msg611693

[Brietta]

With pleasure. You seem to think the Met were able to name the crime in their remit because they were working on the case before Operation Grange was requested, announced and funded. In my opinion that's not true.

Snip/

Why are there always chosen cut off points and starting points condoning the sceptic mantra while totally ignoring the facts of everything else.

Do you really believe that someone woke up on the 12 May 2011 with the spiffing idea that Madeleine had been abducted.

I find it grossly insulting that you choose to ignore the work that went into Madeleine's case which justified the conclusion and therefore the remit arrived at that Madeleine had been abducted and neither her parents nor their friends were persons of interest in that abduction.

Unlike Amaral the Met officers did not have the luxury of deciding the outcome prior to knowing what the evidence was ... they spent over a year which you know absolutely nothing about studying what the evidence actually was to justify a review and even at that it took until the end of 2013 before her case was officially opened.

During that period numerous interviews took place ... not one of which you know anything about ... so to think the Met officers didn't have a firm grasp of who would and should be interviewed is in my opinion to be living in cloud cuckoo land while displaying total ignorance of police procedures which usually start at the very beginning and in this case a year before you think it did.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11381.msg611693#msg611693

You really do get caught up in the chicken or the egg scenarios with everything happening in isolation.  Just a bit like Amaral not being able to see the wood for the trees.

What on earth do you suppose the purpose of the scoping exercise carried out under the previous Home Secretary entailed? 

Do you really think the information contained in the scoping report which led to the official review of Madeleine's case was ignored and the review just sprouted wings of its own without referencing every page of it?

[G-Unit]

You really do get caught up in the chicken or the egg scenarios with everything happening in isolation.  Just a bit like Amaral not being able to see the wood for the trees.

What on earth do you suppose the purpose of the scoping exercise carried out under the previous Home Secretary entailed? 

Do you really think the information contained in the scoping report which led to the official review of Madeleine's case was ignored and the review just sprouted wings of its own without referencing every page of it?

Things may well have happened behind the scenes but as no-one had access to the evidence gathered by the PJ, the PI's and, possibly, LP naming the crime when OG did was so premature imo.

[Brietta]

Things may well have happened behind the scenes but as no-one had access to the evidence gathered by the PJ, the PI's and, possibly, LP naming the crime when OG did was so premature imo.

What an extraordinary post.

Quite obviously things happened behind the scenes … that is how police investigations work ... they only publicise what they need to.

I don’t understand why you think no-one had access to evidence and went into this blind.

Do you think that because Leceistershire Police were not invited to join into either the Scoping exercise or the review leading on from it, would not be obliged to pass on any relevant information they may have had?

Do you think the McCanns did not hand over the evidence collected by their Private Investigators? they were after all desperate to have a case opened on Madeleine.

Do you think they didn’t bother to read the available PJ files in their entirety?

They may have read Cristovao's book or even Amaral's book for all you may know.

[faithlilly]

What an extraordinary post.

Quite obviously things happened behind the scenes … that is how police investigations work ... they only publicise what they need to.

I don’t understand why you think no-one had access to evidence and went into this blind.

Do you think that because Leceistershire Police were not invited to join into either the Scoping exercise or the review leading on from it, would not be obliged to pass on any relevant information they may have had?

Do you think the McCanns did not hand over the evidence collected by their Private Investigators? they were after all desperate to have a case opened on Madeleine.

Do you think they didn’t bother to read the available PJ files in their entirety?

They may have read Cristovao's book or even Amaral's book for all you may know.

They certainly didn’t hand over the report compiled by Henry Exton because, I believe, OG had to get special permission to obtain it.