UK and North American politics. => A look at British politics in the light of the decision to leave the EU. => Topic started by: Admin on February 23, 2016, 12:46:59 PM
Title: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Admin on February 23, 2016, 12:46:59 PM
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Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: pier on February 23, 2016, 01:44:49 PM
I am in favour of an exit as the EU has got far too big and only benefits the poor former soviet states in eastern Europe.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: G-Unit on February 23, 2016, 06:03:16 PM
I am in favour of an exit as the EU has got far too big and only benefits the poor former soviet states in eastern Europe.
Some will research the subject and make an intelligent choice, but most people will be swayed by the media as usual l imagine.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: mercury on February 23, 2016, 11:30:39 PM
I'd guess that at least 60 per cent of the population have no clue whatsoever what this is all about either because they don't understand Ny of the issues and/or they don't give a rats arse
(me included)
It's been used by cameron IMO to get his name in the history books
He is a pointless prime minister The sooner he's booted the better, to be replaced with someone who was born with guts
Re Europe, I think it would be a mistake to leave outright, a more spinefull PM could do more on every issue that's a grievance
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Admin on February 24, 2016, 09:42:09 AM
I'd guess that at least 60 per cent of the population have no clue whatsoever what this is all about either because they don't understand Ny of the issues and/or they don't give a rats arse
(me included)
It's been used by cameron IMO to get his name in the history books
He is a pointless prime minister The sooner he's booted the better, to be replaced with someone who was born with guts
Re Europe, I think it would be a mistake to leave outright, a more spinefull PM could do more on every issue that's a grievance
I agree that most people don't really understand what it is all about, they see all these new EU funded projects all over the place and think what a jolly good job. What they fail to understand is that it is they the British taxpayer who is actually funding it. For every £1.50 the UK government pays out to the EU the country only gets £1 back. The UK is the second largest contributor to the EU.
If the UK didn't have to dish out nearly £10 billion every year to the EU it could fund its own projects for much less. Only 9% of the UK's Gross Domestic Product is trade with the EU, the majority of our trade is with the rest of the world. Leading economists estimated that leaving the EU would see an immediate reduction of 8% in our cost of living. We are subsidising the poor countries of Europe, the former Soviet Bloc, but why should we?
Cameron has let the cat out of the bag however over the last few days, apart from the fat cat companies in London and the South East who have a vested interest in remaining in the UK, membership is all about power and control. The powers that be are worried that Russia and Putin are gearing up for a new cold war with the Ukraine being the new front line. They fear that if the UK were to leave, the EU would fragment and ultimately disintegrate.
The EU has shown itself to be a toothless dinosaur however, it is incapable of dealing with the migrant crisis let alone an onslaught from Russia. It is the job of the United Nations and NATO to keep order in the world, the EU has no real power. It has been allowed to grown into this huge wasteful and corrupt white elephant since its inception following the original Common Market agreements. It attempts to be all things to all people but that just isn't sustainable.
I vote we leave for sure and take back control of our own country.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 24, 2016, 10:27:24 AM
I can see no reason why we should continue to be in the EU, their crazy one size fits all ethos is a shambles. If Merkel wants to be President of the United States of Europe let her get on with it.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Eleanor on February 24, 2016, 01:05:36 PM
I can see no reason why we should continue to be in the EU, their crazy one size fits all ethos is a shambles. If Merkel wants to be President of the United States of Europe let her get on with it.
I think it's more likely that Dave wants to be President of The United States of Europe.
I think The UK should leave. And believe me, I have done some reading on the subject. Although as far as I am concerned, there isn't much wrong with The EU for Europe.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 24, 2016, 01:12:11 PM
I think it's more likely that Dave wants to be President of The United States of Europe.
I think The UK should leave. And believe me, I have done some reading on the subject. Although as far as I am concerned, there isn't much wrong with The EU for Europe.
The UK is the second highest contributor to the EU in monetary terms but has very little hope of winning any issue when confronted by the eastern block vote. It's a bit like FIFA when all the corrupt African and South American countries can outvote the European ones.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 24, 2016, 01:30:03 PM
The only point of concern about an exit, will be how many companies and Financial Institutions will re-locate, if the vote is to leave.
Also, with the result of the vote, if 'NO', there will almost inevitably be an effect on the Stock Market, and with the fact it will take a couple of years to actually 'leave' the market, chaos could ensue.
I always find it an irony, that people object to a United States of Europe, whist they are happy to be linked with the United States of America, and the 'special relationship', which seems to consist of UK politicians lying on their backs ,wagging their proverbial tails and saying YES MASTER. 8(*(
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: blonk on February 24, 2016, 01:33:57 PM
Two of the most prosperous and successful countries in Europe are Norway and Switzerland - both have healthy surpluses, and both punch significantly above their weight by being the bases for many international organisations and international conferences.
'Take back control' is the message that the 'Leave' campaign needs to hammer home.
Michael Gove, the Justice Minister, got it quite right, legally, today, when he simply pointed out that the European Court could easily overrule all the petty gains that Cameron claims to have made from all his jet-setting to places like Hungary, Estonia sand Slovenia, begging for crumbs from the EU table. Cameron even admitted it in a statement this morning, when he conceded that the European Court would merely 'take into account' the 28-nation agreement last week, not rubber-stamp it.
Even the crumbs he got are worthless
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: blonk on February 24, 2016, 01:41:16 PM
The UK is the second highest contributor to the EU in monetary terms but has very little hope of winning any issue when confronted by the eastern block vote. It's a bit like FIFA when all the corrupt African and South American countries can outvote the European ones.
Or the Eurovision song contest, where Poland votes for the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Lithuania, Lithuania votes for Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania and Latvia, Latvia votes for Estonia, Lithuania, Poland and Slovakia..., Slovakia votes for...
For all the claims for Britain being 'stronger in Europe', on many EU decisions the United Kingdom of 65 million people has an equal voice with the 400,000 souls of Luxembourg and of Estonia, whose national budget is below that of Essex County Council.
ETA: The polls over the past few months show a steady, but declining majority, for 'Remain'. But the first one since Cameron announced the referendum date gives 'Leave' a 1% lead: 39% to 38% - with 23% undecided:
Two of the most prosperous and successful countries in Europe are Norway and Switzerland - both have healthy surpluses, and both punch significantly above their weight by being the bases for many international organisations and international conferences.
'Take back control' is the message that the 'Leave' campaign needs to hammer home.
Michael Gove, the Justice Minister, got it quite right, legally, today, when he simply pointed out that the European Court could easily overrule all the petty gains that Cameron claims to have made from all his jet-setting to places like Hungary, Estonia sand Slovenia, begging for crumbs from the EU table. Cameron even admitted it in a statement this morning, when he conceded that the European Court would merely 'take into account' the 28-nation agreement last week, not rubber-stamp it.
Even the crumbs he got are worthless
Do you think Cameron would have got anything of value ?
He is a bit of a laughing stock.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 24, 2016, 01:44:56 PM
Or the Eurovision song contest, where Poland votes for the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Lithuania, Lithuania votes for Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania and Latvia, Latvia votes for Estonia, Lithuania, Poland and Slovakia..., Slovakia votes for...
For all the claims for Britain being 'stronger in Europe', on many EU decisions the United Kingdom of 65 million people has an equal voice with the 400,000 souls of Luxembourg and of Estonia, whose national budget is below that of Essex County Council.
Well the Eurovision Song contest has been a joke for years.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Eleanor on February 24, 2016, 01:46:42 PM
Two of the most prosperous and successful countries in Europe are Norway and Switzerland - both have healthy surpluses, and both punch significantly above their weight by being the bases for many international organisations and international conferences.
'Take back control' is the message that the 'Leave' campaign needs to hammer home.
Michael Gove, the Justice Minister, got it quite right, legally, today, when he simply pointed out that the European Court could easily overrule all the petty gains that Cameron claims to have made from all his jet-setting to places like Hungary, Estonia sand Slovenia, begging for crumbs from the EU table. Cameron even admitted it in a statement this morning, when he conceded that the European Court would merely 'take into account' the 28-nation agreement last week, not rubber-stamp it.
Even the crumbs he got are worthless
Gosh. Fancy agreeing with you for a change. Although it doesn't actually affect me personally. So my opinion is truly altruistic. It just isn't working for Britain, and it never really has. Perhaps because Britain has never been actually In.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Admin on February 24, 2016, 02:23:36 PM
Or the Eurovision song contest, where Poland votes for the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Lithuania, Lithuania votes for Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania and Latvia, Latvia votes for Estonia, Lithuania, Poland and Slovakia..., Slovakia votes for...
For all the claims for Britain being 'stronger in Europe', on many EU decisions the United Kingdom of 65 million people has an equal voice with the 400,000 souls of Luxembourg and of Estonia, whose national budget is below that of Essex County Council.
ETA: The polls over the past few months show a steady, but declining majority, for 'Remain'. But the first one since Cameron announced the referendum date gives 'Leave' a 1% lead: 39% to 38% - with 23% undecided:
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Admin on February 24, 2016, 02:30:50 PM
It is not only people in the UK who are dissatisfied with the EU, we have had literally hundreds of tweets from people in other European countries who are annoyed that they are being refused a referendum on the question of membership.
People are at last waking up to what the EU is really all about.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: jassi on February 24, 2016, 06:12:08 PM
I'm afraid that with people like Gove, Fox and Duncan Smith in favour of leaving, I will have no alternative other than to vote to stay.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: sika on February 24, 2016, 06:20:41 PM
The fact is, you'd need a crystal ball to know whether leaving would be a good move or bad. Nobody knows how it will pan out. We know how much we contribute to the EU pot, but what do we get back as a result? There is no definitive answer!
It's interesting that those who generaly share the same political philosophies, like Gove and Cameron, fundamentally disagree on this one.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Eleanor on February 24, 2016, 06:26:55 PM
One can be pretty sure that none of them are telling the whole truth.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 24, 2016, 07:35:29 PM
The fact is, you'd need a crystal ball to know whether leaving would be a good move or bad. Nobody knows how it will pan out. We know how much we contribute to the EU pot, but what do we get back as a result? There is no definitive answer!
It's interesting that those who generaly share the same political philosophies, like Gove and Cameron, fundamentally disagree on this one.
The bit we are really interested in we will not be told! Similarly we will not be told that the EU issues Directives not laws. A member state enacts the directive by its own laws. The trouble is when it comes to the law of enactment of a directive the French love "plastic and chrome plate" whereas we are incapable seemingly of doing anything other than "naval bronze and polished mahogany"; now whose fault is that ?. If we leave and wish to trade with the EU we will have to follow their relevant directives anyway and many of our systems will require registered approval from the EU unless we negotiate grandfather rights on the way out. It could all be fun.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 24, 2016, 10:16:04 PM
This absolutely proves what I said on another thread - you can't take online polls or comments as a serious reflection of the general public's opinion on anything.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: mercury on February 24, 2016, 10:35:05 PM
I agree that most people don't really understand what it is all about, they see all these new EU funded projects all over the place and think what a jolly good job. What they fail to understand is that it is they the British taxpayer who is actually funding it. For every £1.50 the UK government pays out to the EU the country only gets £1 back. The UK is the second largest contributor to the EU.
If the UK didn't have to dish out nearly £10 billion every year to the EU it could fund its own projects for much less. Only 9% of the UK's Gross Domestic Product is trade with the EU, the majority of our trade is with the rest of the world. Leading economists estimated that leaving the EU would see an immediate reduction of 8% in our cost of living. We are subsidising the poor countries of Europe, the former Soviet Bloc, but why should we?
Cameron has let the cat out of the bag however over the last few days, apart from the fat cat companies in London and the South East who have a vested interest in remaining in the UK, membership is all about power and control. The powers that be are worried that Russia and Putin are gearing up for a new cold war with the Ukraine being the new front line. They fear that if the UK were to leave, the EU would fragment and ultimately disintegrate.
The EU has shown itself to be a toothless dinosaur however, it is incapable of dealing with the migrant crisis let alone an onslaught from Russia. It is the job of the United Nations and NATO to keep order in the world, the EU has no real power. It has been allowed to grown into this huge wasteful and corrupt white elephant since its inception following the original Common Market agreements. It attempts to be all things to all people but that just isn't sustainable.
I vote we leave for sure and take back control of our own country.
It will be alright on the night as they say whatever happens. The military stuff is whoosh over my head. I know two things
- financial wizards predict aninterest rate rise here very soon - If we leave I will be so glad to see the back end of ant writing on products
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: mercury on February 24, 2016, 11:01:38 PM
I'm afraid that with people like Gove, Fox and Duncan Smith in favour of leaving, I will have no alternative other than to vote to stay.
You weren't impressed then seeing Gove parading himself like a peacock in his lord chancellors ridiculous outfit on the news smiling and smirking
The man hasn't a legal bone in his body...how the hell did he get that job!!! Makes a mockery of politics.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 25, 2016, 12:20:50 PM
So when the referendum votes are counted and the majority wish to leave the EU there remains the stumbling block of it being only a referendum. ie not binding in any way. Parliament being the guvnor and all that can just ignore the vote and stay in the EU, effectively, as always, telling the proles to go sit on a sharp stick.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: jassi on February 25, 2016, 12:28:17 PM
There have been some conflicting views on this, but Cameron said, only a few days ago, that if the public voted to leave, then he would start that process immediately. No mention of a Commons vote. No doubt he will back-track if it suits him.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 25, 2016, 06:55:46 PM
This absolutely proves what I said on another thread - you can't take online polls or comments as a serious reflection of the general public's opinion on anything.
Why not? This was a snap poll of over1000 members of the general public who were free to vote either way. It's not as if admin telephoned 1000 people previously recorded on some list like the pollsters do.
The much higher dissent just goes to show that the vested interest crowd who persistently claim a 50/50 split are manipulating the results.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 25, 2016, 07:05:48 PM
So when the referendum votes are counted and the majority wish to leave the EU there remains the stumbling block of it being only a referendum. ie not binding in any way. Parliament being the guvnor and all that can just ignore the vote and stay in the EU, effectively, as always, telling the proles to go sit on a sharp stick.
I don't think so Alice, the referendum will stand whatever the result. If the people vote to leave the EU then Cameron and Osborne will have to go too.
I can't see the government backtracking but I can see it entrenched in trouble. Boris could very well come out of this as the new Tory leader.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 25, 2016, 11:05:26 PM
I really can't stand Tory no camp IDS and Shove a Gove. But for me this isn't about party political politics. This is about My country and Me having some kind of say in it's management. There are a great many people in this country who remember the 'common market ' as what we signed up to, what we got was a bum deal, fisheries policies, farming legislation's all not in our interest. AND these people all have a vote!
I recall an essay I wrote 9 years ago, claiming the EU would lead us to civil unrest in the near future ( Bliars government policies), how forced multiculturalism is not in the best interest of any country in the west, and indeed would see the rise in National socialism (return of the Nazis) and all the horrors that entails. I was laughed and jeered. Well, look where we all are now.
With online shopping and global markets to tap into, and our learned self sufficiency in food production we can go it alone...wow we did it before, plus we have the Camen Islands for those who still don't have the stomach to pay tax to create community wealth. I will vote to leave for a whole lot of reasons.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 26, 2016, 10:57:53 PM
I really can't stand Tory no camp IDS and Shove a Gove. But for me this isn't about party political politics. This is about My country and Me having some kind of say in it's management. There are a great many people in this country who remember the 'common market ' as what we signed up to, what we got was a bum deal, fisheries policies, farming legislation's all not in our interest. AND these people all have a vote!
I recall an essay I wrote 9 years ago, claiming the EU would lead us to civil unrest in the near future ( Bliars government policies), how forced multiculturalism is not in the best interest of any country in the west, and indeed would see the rise in National socialism (return of the Nazis) and all the horrors that entails. I was laughed and jeered. Well, look where we all are now.
With online shopping and global markets to tap into, and our learned self sufficiency in food production we can go it alone...wow we did it before, plus we have the Camen Islands for those who still don't have the stomach to pay tax to create community wealth. I will vote to leave for a whole lot of reasons.
I agree. What so many people don't realise is that we have been fed the European 'one size fits all' mantra for so long that we are unable to think as a country any more. The EU needs the UK much more than we need them. We sell them a mere 9% of our GDP with the lions share of 91% being sold to countries outside the EU.
When we exit the EU manufacturers all over Europe who have a huge vested interest in selling to us can be forced to discount their wares. The ball will then be at out feet!
We can negotiate the deals we want and on our terms.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on February 28, 2016, 01:30:33 AM
I agree. What so many people don't realise is that we have been fed the European 'one size fits all' mantra for so long that we are unable to think as a country any more. The EU needs the UK much more than we need them. We sell them a mere 9% of our GDP with the lions share of 91% being sold to countries outside the EU.
When we exit the EU manufacturers all over Europe who have a huge vested interest in selling to us can be forced to discount their wares. The ball will then be at out feet!
We can negotiate the deals we want and on our terms.
You only need to look at the number of new cars being brought into the UK from France, Germany and Spain. Manufacturers like Renault, Peugeot, Citroen, Seat, Mercedes, BMW and Ford have a lot at stake in being able to flog their wares to British buyers. For far too long has the EU dictated price and what we can or cannot buy. Leaving the EU would strengthen our bargaining powers and enable us to strike our own trade deals with these manufacturers and on our terms. No longer would the UK be subjected to customs tariff barriers which make everything so much more expensive.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on February 29, 2016, 10:33:13 AM
The people of the UK are being fed the lie continually that we are dependent upon the EU for trade and for security, neither is true. A mere 9% of the UK's GDP is trade with Europe, this is a paltry amount so leaving the EU will have no impact. What will impact however is that we will be able to tear up the existing trade agreements which are biased towards the EU. The EU needs the UK and its buying power much more than we need it. Consequently, leaving the EU will allow the UK to again strike deals which benefit us and not the rest of Europe. As an example, European car manufacturers flood the UK with their products at inflated prices. Once we are free from the customs tariffs imposed by the EU we will be able to buy cars at the price we want and not at the price they want to sell them. The reason for this is simple, they need to flog us cars but we will be free to choose what to buy.
The UK has a cost of living 8% higher than it need be simply because of the EU imposed trade barriers. We are forced to pay overinflated prices because of EU trade agreements. Agreements which were put into place to protect the poorer States within the EU. The UK is subsidising those poorer States to the tune of some £3 billion each and every year. The UK pays in some £10 billion into the EU every year but only gets back about £6 billion in so-called EU projects. Better we keep the £10 billion and fund our own projects, why should the UK pay for impoverished former Soviet Bloc States?
Finally, much has been made of our national security which the stay campaigners claim will be jeopardised. The truth here is that the EU is a toothless dinosaur. If push came to shove the EU could do little if anything. The EU cannot even deal with the migrant crisis with any consensus so expecting European States to act together in the face of Soviet aggression is a joke. It is NATO we look to for security and not the EU.
The EU wants to dictate to us how many migrants we can take, they want to flood our towns and cities with people who have no cultural link to our country, this is unacceptable. We need to control our borders, we need to be able to deal with illegal immigrants effectively and we can only do so out with the EU.
We don't need the EU, it is merely a staging post en route to a federal entity called the United States of Europe. It has destroyed many of our industries and alienated us from our traditional trading partners around the world. The people shouting loudest about remaining in the EU have vested interests in doing so but then that is no surprise. The vast majority of people in the UK have at last seen through this charade and will have the greatest opportunity since the end of the second world war to forge our own destiny.
The sooner we get the hell out the better!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Karelcb on February 29, 2016, 10:40:53 AM
If being part of the EU is such a good thing, then I ask two questions. 1. Why do so many of us wish to leave? 2. Why does David Cameron feel the need to lie & use scaremongering tactics to convince us to stay in.
After 40 years of interference and £billions spent I cannot see any benefits in remaining a member of the EU. I cannot name one issue raised in that time that has made the last 40 years value for money.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Eleanor on February 29, 2016, 11:05:55 AM
The people of the UK are being fed the lie continually that we are dependent upon the EU for trade and for security, neither is true. A mere 9% of the UK's GDP is trade with Europe, this is a paltry amount so leaving the EU will have no impact. What will impact however is that we will be able to tear up the existing trade agreements which are biased towards the EU. The EU needs the UK and its buying power much more than we need it. Consequently, leaving the EU will allow the UK to again strike deals which benefit us and not the rest of Europe. As an example, European car manufacturers flood the UK with their products at inflated prices. Once we are free from the customs tariffs imposed by the EU we will be able to buy cars at the price we want and not at the price they want to sell them. The reason for this is simple, they need to flog us cars but we will be free to choose what to buy.
The UK has a cost of living 8% higher than it need be simply because of the EU imposed trade barriers. We are forced to pay overinflated prices because of EU trade agreements. Agreements which were put into place to protect the poorer States within the EU. The UK is subsidising those poorer States to the tune of some £3 billion each and every year. The UK pays in some £10 billion into the EU every year but only gets back about £6 billion in so-called EU projects. Better we keep the £10 billion and fund our own projects, why should the UK pay for impoverished former Soviet Bloc States?
Finally, much has been made of our national security which the stay campaigners claim will be jeopardised. The truth here is that the EU is a toothless dinosaur. If push came to shove the EU could do little if anything. The EU cannot even deal with the migrant crisis with any consensus so expecting European States to act together in the face of Soviet aggression is a joke. It is NATO we look to for security and not the EU.
The EU wants to dictate to us how many migrants we can take, they want to flood our towns and cities with people who have no cultural link to our country, this is unacceptable. We need to control our borders, we need to be able to deal with illegal immigrants effectively and we can only do so out with the EU.
We don't need the EU, it is merely a staging post en route to a federal entity called the United States of Europe. It has destroyed many of our industries and alienated us from our traditional trading partners around the world. The people shouting loudest about remaining in the EU have vested interests in doing so but then that is no surprise. The vast majority of people in the UK have at last seen through this charade and will have the greatest opportunity since the end of the second world war to forge our own destiny.
The sooner we get the hell out the better!
I agree with this, and well put for The UK. Although I am not so sure that Europe needs The UK. And Britain has never actually been in, has it.
The whole thing went wrong from the beginning when Britain refused to join when asked, and De Gaulle told Britain to get lost if that's how they felt. That's when it should have stopped.
We are an Island Race, and were never suited for this malarky. We just don't understand them.
I probably still don't. But France has done well by me, much more so than Britain ever did. They are kind to old people. It's in the genes. So I won't be leaving France anytime soon.
But I still want what is best for the land of my birth, and that looks like Out to me.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Eleanor on February 29, 2016, 11:14:48 AM
If being part of the EU is such a good thing, then I ask two questions. 1. Why do so many of us wish to leave? 2. Why does David Cameron feel the need to lie & use scaremongering tactics to convince us to stay in.
After 40 years of interference and £billions spent I cannot see any benefits in remaining a member of the EU. I cannot name one issue raised in that time that has made the last 40 years value for money.
Britain opted In far too late, if they ever should have done. But some idiot only saw the good bits, with reservations.
Europe never did trust Britain after that.
I don't know what Cameron thinks he is doing. I could take a guess, but I won't.
In the meantime I shall wait and see. I very much doubt that it will make any difference to me personally. France will look after me. Of this I am sure. Which is more than I can say for Britain.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Admin on February 29, 2016, 02:55:51 PM
Britain opted In far too late, if they ever should have done. But some idiot only saw the good bits, with reservations.
Europe never did trust Britain after that.
I don't know what Cameron thinks he is doing. I could take a guess, but I won't.
In the meantime I shall wait and see. I very much doubt that it will make any difference to me personally. France will look after me. Of this I am sure. Which is more than I can say for Britain.
It all started with the Common Market which was a useful tool all round but as with most things it wasn't enough and soon dreams of a federal Europe were forming. The EU is the result, an organisation which nobody voted for in the first place. If the UK leaves, the EU will disintegrate slowly but surely and the gravy train will stop. Hallelujah!!!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: blonk on March 02, 2016, 11:05:06 PM
The results of the most recent three national opinion polls, as featured in the Wikipedia Euro Referendum Poll Tracker page, have been (excluding 'don't knows'):
Date poll conducted
25 Feb REMAIN 49.5 LEAVE 50.5
25 Feb REMAIN 48 LEAVE 52
29 Feb REMAIN 50 LEAVE 50
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: mercury on March 02, 2016, 11:55:11 PM
Has Cameron in an attempt to shamelessly steal votes and thunder from Farage put his foot in it? After all he is campaigning to stay. what a wally.
I wonder how it will affect Scotland too if the UK leaves
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Admin on March 03, 2016, 12:26:55 AM
Has Cameron in an attempt to shamelessly steal votes and thunder from Farage put his foot in it? After all he is campaigning to stay. what a wally.
I wonder how it will affect Scotland too if the UK leaves
The Scottish people dodged a bullet the last time round. Had they voted for independence they would be as bankrupt as Greece about now with the Scottish pound being as worthless as the peso. The dream of independence was built on the projection that oil prices would remain high for years to come but at $30 a barrel and with many Aberdeen oil companies facing bankruptcy, independence has again become an illusion much like the Loch Ness monster.
The people of Scotland will think long and hard before they contemplate such a move ever again.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Eleanor on March 03, 2016, 12:37:55 AM
The Scottish Pound has never been worthless. And anyone who thinks it ever was has some need of lessons in economics as they really are.
That, Mrs. Admin, is just about the most insulting thing I have ever read. I am appalled by your ignorance.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Admin on March 04, 2016, 06:17:55 PM
The Scottish Pound has never been worthless. And anyone who thinks it ever was has some need of lessons in economics as they really are.
That, Mrs. Admin, is just about the most insulting thing I have ever read. I am appalled by your ignorance.
It would have been had independence preceded the collapse of the two main Scottish banks. As it is, Scotland does not have gold reserves capable of underpinning the Scottish pound which I understand is guaranteed by the Bank of England.
Scottish notes are accepted as currency in the UK under the Banknote (Scotland) Act of 1845. However, this legislation would no longer apply after independence without a currency union, thereby making Scots notes worthless.
The only reason the current SNP Scottish government wants to remain within the EU is for protection should their banks ever default after independence. Like Greece, they would seek support in the form of a bailout.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 13, 2016, 05:58:46 PM
8((()*/
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 16, 2016, 10:27:03 PM
It would have been had independence preceded the collapse of the two main Scottish banks. As it is, Scotland does not have gold reserves capable of underpinning the Scottish pound which I understand is guaranteed by the Bank of England.
Scottish notes are accepted as currency in the UK under the Banknote (Scotland) Act of 1845. However, this legislation would no longer apply after independence without a currency union, thereby making Scots notes worthless.
The only reason the current SNP Scottish government wants to remain within the EU is for protection should their banks ever default after independence. Like Greece, they would seek support in the form of a bailout.
Oh I see you chose your own time in history and chose your own battle... lol
OK let's have a closer look at the allegation implied. The UK stands for United of Kingdoms ( or as my French daughter in law would say 'Unneeted condom') well we do have a lot of Prx in our government!
This means we are all seperate countries united -Scotland , England, Wales. ( Scotland and Wales dumped our kings and queens) we all had our own identities,versions of religion,superstitions, and languages,cultures, but as we were an island we stood together for the better good of our nations.
This helped our economies, security. We had national interests like rail and road links, health, Gas/elecricity all under our control ( not always better run) We also had a wee fund to help when we got into a hubble financially, our housing was improving and expanding. We the Scots and the Welsh spoke fluent English so we could communicate. All was well.
We grew and shared our own food between ourselves. So what happened? Well, we were governed by an ENGLISH establishment, had a queen to support as well, then we had the EU, then we had to support Africans ,Indians, Pakistanis,chinese and everyone else. The English government also sold our industries, removed our rights bit by bit. It was the ENGLISH governement who squandred our oil money, handed our fishing rights to other countries, gave subsidies to farmers in other countries while ours suffered.. oh I could go on, but you get the gist... that is: It was the ENGLISH Government who signed us up to the EU.
The Scots voted to stay with England because of this relationship we have, like any family we have fights and difference of opinions, but United we should stay. I will never understand why Sturgeon wanted tp leave the UK and stay in the EU which is a lot worse! I do suspect admin is correct- she wants us to be like Ireland and take all the benefits, but alas that is all gone...The SNP have in some ways improved lives in Scotland, but NS is going down that PC route which is very dangerous- she will never be queen of scotland or their hearts.
I vote to stay in UK leave EU. for the reasons above.
ps the bank scandal was more than just RBS and BOS!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 16, 2016, 10:30:24 PM
Has Cameron in an attempt to shamelessly steal votes and thunder from Farage put his foot in it? After all he is campaigning to stay. what a wally.
I wonder how it will affect Scotland too if the UK leaves
...and guess who are on the remain camp...Phoney Tony made his millions out of peoples misery and death IMO Sleekit mandleson and spin it like to win it sleazy campbell... ew best reasons yet to BREXIT.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Andrea on March 26, 2016, 11:35:19 AM
OUT OUT OUT
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: puglove on April 23, 2016, 11:20:12 PM
I wish I understood all of this. If we left the EU, would it stop the live transport of animals? If so, then yes. Out.
But....Bill Oddie says that leaving would be bad for wildlife. I'm confuzzled. 8(8-))
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on April 24, 2016, 10:02:06 AM
If Obama and the yanks want us to stay in the EU then its time to get out. If we don't leave this German led project right now we will lose all sense of national identity as a one State federal Europe is their aim.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: scipio_usmc on May 03, 2016, 05:04:45 AM
If Obama and the yanks want us to stay in the EU then its time to get out. If we don't leave this German led project right now we will lose all sense of national identity as a one State federal Europe is their aim.
Why are you attributing Obama's view to all Americans? Most Americans don't care and don't even understand that the UK is part of the EU in the first place since the UK doesn't use the Euro and is not a full fledged member.
I think joining the EU was a crappy deal for the UK and would not stay in, especially after the EU has shown how worthless its governance truly is. Economically I don't see how the UK benefited and you even lost your cool black passports. I would vote to exit if I were a Brit.
Obama is a clown who only got a second term because Romney ran such a pitiful campaign and so many people chose to stay home instead of showing up at the polls to vote against Obama. Obama won by a very small margin in key states. Had people been smart enough to show up to vote we would have been saved from another 4 years of misery- well spared some misery Romney would have sucked in his own right but was the lesser of 2 evils.
Whether you stay or not has no impact at all on the US so far as I see so I don't care either way though I would vote to leave if a Brit.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 03, 2016, 04:52:47 PM
I don't feel I know enough about it to have any strong views either way.
Apparently the economic argument for is based on the claim immigrants are in the main net contributors ie they pay more in taxes than they take out eg welfare and pensions. As far as I can see this is to be expected as most migrants are young and childless. This might not always be the case though ie if they decide to stay long-term. Also additional funds will be needed to maintain and increase infrastructure eg schools, hospital, health care services, transport etc. I think it's difficult to quantify.
I spent four nights in London during Christmas/New Yr. During my stay I visited bars, restaurants, shops and the theatre. The only British person I encountered ie no foreign accent was a female cabbie. The nearest to this encounter was the ticket seller at the Lyceum theatre who was Aussie. Where are all the British born? All the foreigners were polite, helpful and friendly so I was not particularly bothered. It was just an observation I couldn't help noticing.
European leaders have admitted multiculturalism has failed:
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Countess Mayberry on May 07, 2016, 10:10:35 AM
Does anyone know how a Brexit may affect the Brits with properties and investments in Europe? I am personally all for change if it's going to benefit the next generation and it's quite a responsibility in that sense to be the generation that makes the change for the future. I hope a Brexit is not merely an attempt to solve the immigration crisis and has the long term economical benefits in mind as a priority. Without sounding too ignorant about politics, what are the top 3 gains and losses associated with a vote to leave the EU?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 07, 2016, 08:15:11 PM
Does anyone know how a Brexit may affect the Brits with properties and investments in Europe? I am personally all for change if it's going to benefit the next generation and it's quite a responsibility in that sense to be the generation that makes the change for the future. I hope a Brexit is not merely an attempt to solve the immigration crisis and has the long term economical benefits in mind as a priority. Without sounding too ignorant about politics, what are the top 3 gains and losses associated with a vote to leave the EU?
I don't think it will affect Brits with properties and investments in Europe. Assets held in Europe will rise or fall dependant on market conditions.
I think it's just a case of spending a bit of time Googling various newspapers etc and forming your own views. I don't think there's a single unbiased source.
Given the PM and leader of the opposition are warning against a Brexit I think it's unlikely to happen. Voters are likely to opt for the 'better the devil you know' than an unknown. People will only usually opt for change if they're suffering and most aren't.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on May 11, 2016, 08:49:38 PM
This could very well be the last time our generation will have an opportunity to get out of this corrupt institution, it's a bit like FIFA but without the football. The EU should never have been allowed to get as big as it has done, it suits the agendas of certain countries however. The Germans want a Federal Europe with them at the centre of it, that in itself is a major reason for getting the hell out.
The farming industry in Northern Ireland has been damaged greatly by our membership yet just over the border in the Irish Republic the EU is falling over itself to spend OUR money in lavish grants and aid payments to Irish farmers. We are effectively being asked to subsidize our competitors to the tune of £ millions.
If the UK does vote to leave I can see other countries following suit, all that will be left will be Germany and the Eastern European scroungers so basically good luck to them!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 12, 2016, 02:58:57 PM
This could very well be the last time our generation will have an opportunity to get out of this corrupt institution, it's a bit like FIFA but without the football. The EU should never have been allowed to get as big as it has done, it suits the agendas of certain countries however. The Germans want a Federal Europe with them at the centre of it, that in itself is a major reason for getting the hell out.
The farming industry in Northern Ireland has been damaged greatly by our membership yet just over the border in the Irish Republic the EU is falling over itself to spend OUR money in lavish grants and aid payments to Irish farmers. We are effectively being asked to subsidize our competitors to the tune of £ millions.
If the UK does vote to leave I can see other countries following suit, all that will be left will be Germany and the Eastern European scroungers so basically good luck to them!
I have no strong views either way as I don't feel I know enough about it and I can't be bothered to research it all but I just don't see it happening anyway. Today the BoE has warned of a Brexit recession:
This is on the back of warnings of a Brexit from the PM and leader of the opposition.
Britian can potentially leave as we have our own currency. For those countries with the Euro exiting will be that much more difficult.
Maybe it's diffrent in NI but as far as I'm aware most farmers in England would struggle without EU subsidies.
I think it will be like the vote for Scottish Independence where voters like the idea but when push comes to shove they lack the balls for the unknown and change. In London and the SE most are prospering like never before and have very good standards of living so why risk it?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 20, 2016, 10:02:55 PM
This is becoming a nasty party political mud slinging event. The BBC are trying to protect themselves by kissing the (_I_) of the stayiners. They have been given the all clear to keep taxing the public without the bat of an eye in return for nice stayinners publicity. I note the stayinners have not decriminalised this 'crime' of watching a TV lol. and Angelina Jolie oh purleeze
Although the intellegenza poo poo the idea that immigration is the crux for many illiterate bigots and zenophobics alike, to be the only choice reason for Brexit, lets look at the real impact.
We as kingdoms united, were able to feed ourselves, produce goods, export our surplus we had a common goal to survive what ever. Can we not do that again? Can we not have white local commuities calling the shots with local people making decisions? who can live where and who can't? There is nothing wrong with people from other countries comming here and working- we should have no issue with that. What most people I know find repulsive is being forced to be part of a social experiment of introducing multiculturalism- hence new criminalisation with new names like racist being over used to point at the 'white ' community where as the most racists community you will find is within the Asian 'community' they have a caste system. their 'laws' ( this comes under the culture banner) are incompatable with ours and yet we do nothing. The majority are forced to 'acccept' the minority way of doing things even though this is in complete contrast to our moral and ethical thinking. It would be an abomination for a white man to marry a 15 year old, they would go to jail as sex offenders but in Asian community with our knowledge, men in their 60;s can marry a 5 year old. SO what has this got to do with EU, well we must be tolerant apparently of these offensive refugees types- if we pursue these people we are called rascist. If we do not feed these people we are called rascist if we do not house these people we are called rascist in effect we have become a nation of scared people who have nothing to be scared of. Let us all stand together and celebrate being rascist if that is what it takes to get our country back.
The real scandal is the real cost of this mass invasion sorry mass immigration is being hidden,we are borrowing money and paying interest on the borrowed money to pay for this priveledge of not being called rascist.
Just as an aside about economy. it cost one day in a clinic over £500.00 for interpreters! We are borrowing money to pay for this and patients are being turned away due to lack of funds. Yes, immigration is just one luxury we can't afford. because we have to look at the big picture which is: what is the starving population of Africa? what is the population of Afghanistan and Pakistan and Iraq? yes, many millions all wating to get here to this country. we should be selective who we let in After all, didn't black countries take back control from the bad white man?
Immigration is only one reason for leaving. it is a major one, it is affecting out culture, social, education, freedoms, liberty, and our economy.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on May 22, 2016, 04:02:41 PM
I really have got to laugh at the Tory government's attempts to scare everybody into voting stay in the referendum. According to them the country will go down the pan if we vote to leave, wages will fall, goods will get dearer, house prices will fall, our security will be threatened etc etc... What this does show however is the grip which the European Union has over us at the moment, everything we do in our country is now at their discretion. If we don't get the hell out of this farce what will it be like five years, ten years or twenty years down the line because if it is that bad now it can only get worse.
I say VOTE LEAVE and not look back!
They need us a damn sight more than we need them!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2016, 09:10:38 AM
I really have got to laugh at the Tory government's attempts to scare everybody into voting stay in the referendum. According to them the country will go down the pan if we vote to leave, wages will fall, goods will get dearer, house prices will fall, our security will be threatened etc etc... What this does show however is the grip which the European Union has over us at the moment, everything we do in our country is now at their discretion. If we don't get the hell out of this farce what will it be like five years, ten years or twenty years down the line because if it is that bad now it can only get worse.
I say VOTE LEAVE and not look back!
They need us a damn sight more than we need them!
Why does the EU need us more than we need need them ?
I find it a profound irony that this country has been built on immigration over thousands of years.
It is a fact that migrants to this country from the EU or outside, are net providers to the treasury.
Is the EU any less incompetent than Westminster ?
Personally, I don't think it will make any difference whether we leave or stay as regards the vast majority of people, but I tell you this, some multi-national companies will re-locate to Europe if we leave.
...and by the way, what exactly is the National Identity for the UK ?
I see no change in National Identities at all.
Perhaps a pint of Lager and a Chicken Tikka Massala ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 02, 2016, 10:16:39 AM
Why does the EU need us more than we need need them ?
I find it a profound irony that this country has been built on immigration over thousands of years.
It is a fact that migrants to this country from the EU or outside, are net providers to the treasury.
Is the EU any less incompetent than Westminster ?
Personally, I don't think it will make any difference whether we leave or stay as regards the vast majority of people, but I tell you this, some multi-national companies will re-locate to Europe if we leave.
...and by the way, what exactly is the National Identity for the UK ?
I see no change in National Identities at all.
Perhaps a pint of Lager and a Chicken Tikka Massala ?
The EU sells a hell of a lot more to us than we do to them, about 9% of our GDP to be precise. If we got rid of the customs tariffs imposed by the EU which are aimed at protecting eastern European bloc countries we could trade with the rest of the world much more easily and cheaper. The EU is an impediment to free trade, not a facilitator.
The only people crying about the possibility of leaving the EU are the fat cat profiteers based in London and the South East. The rest of the UK has had little benefit from the EU. In the farming industry for example, farmers in Ulster have seen their incomes decimated and their farms deteriorate whilst farmers in the Irish Republic have seen growth and boom. Irish farmers are plied with grants by the EU for just about everything simply because the Republic of Ireland was designated a low growth region. Why should those of us who have built a farming industry over several generations subsidise poorer areas? Why should British farmers lose out whilst those in former Soviet bloc States prosper?
You ask why the EU needs us? It's very simple, we spend £ billions buying their goods. They need to flog us their cars, lorries, domestic appliances etc etc... Thing is though, once we're out of the EU we can still buy them but wait for it...ON OUR TERMS! That's the big difference, we will buy what suits us and at a price which we want to pay. No more protectionism for the likes of Renault, Peugeot, Citroen, Mercedes, BMW, Fiat, Seat and the rest of them who have been dumping cars on us for years at inflated prices.
If we leave the EU we will be able to trade with the rest of the world on a free market basis, supply and demand, no more customs tariffs, no more inflated prices. Food will become cheaper to us as the EU stranglehold on importers disappears, again if the EU wants to continue to flog us their products it will be on our terms, not theirs!
No wonder the EU is crapping itself at the thought of us leaving, how could we ever contemplate ever doing such a thing?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2016, 10:25:28 AM
For reference purposes.
file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/SN06091.pdf
You are aware I presume John that even the leave campaign have admitted GDP would suffer and not recover to approx 2030 ?
I'm afraid the dumping of high priced goods has come largely from America.
'ON OUR TERMS'.
Don't think so.
We will be at the bottom of the queue.
Long gone are the days that this country carries any real weight.
Our industry was decimated by Thatcher, whilst other countries made sure that didn't happen to them.
Can you tell me what real UK owned industry do we have left John ?
It is becoming increasingly a global community and I'm afraid if we leave the EU, despite it 's drawbacks, this country will rapidly deteriorate.
Do you approve of the United STATES of America ?
Note the word 'STATES'.
The EU is certainly not crapping itself, where did you get that idea ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 02, 2016, 10:37:01 AM
According to Open Europe's comprehensive Brexit report, UK GDP could be 2.2% lower in 2030 if Britain leaves the EU and fails to strike a deal with the EU or reverts into protectionism. In a best case scenario, under which the UK manages to enter into liberal trade arrangements with the EU and the rest of the world, whilst pursuing large-scale deregulation at home, Britain could be better off by 1.6% of GDP in 2030. However, a far more realistic range is between a 0.8% permanent loss to GDP in 2030 and a 0.6% permanent gain in GDP in 2030, in scenarios where Britain mixes policy approaches.
I go with the better off option for so many reasons.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 02, 2016, 10:44:17 AM
You have to realise Stephen that the EU sells us 91% of what we buy while we only sell them 9%. They need us big time otherwise France, Germany and Italy will see massive recession which will impact on the dodgy Euro.
We don't need Europe Stephen, why don't you realise this? The only reason the EU exists is a stepping stone to a federal United States of Europe with all people being equal and with the Germans ruling the roost. If you want that vote remain!
The other issue of course is unfettered migration to our small island if we stay in the EU with millions of Turks just waiting their chance to come aboard. You talk of a national identity, well if we stay in the EU that will be gone by 2020. London and some English cities might have lost their national identity but the vast majority of the UK hasn't.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2016, 10:45:32 AM
According to Open Europe's comprehensive Brexit report, UK GDP could be 2.2% lower in 2030 if Britain leaves the EU and fails to strike a deal with the EU or reverts into protectionism. In a best case scenario, under which the UK manages to enter into liberal trade arrangements with the EU and the rest of the world, whilst pursuing large-scale deregulation at home, Britain could be better off by 1.6% of GDP in 2030. However, a far more realistic range is between a 0.8% permanent loss to GDP in 2030 and a 0.6% permanent gain in GDP in 2030, in scenarios where Britain mixes policy approaches.
I go with the better off option for so many reasons.
That is a matter of perspective and a knowledge of Economics.
and there are so many variables to be dealt with.
If, as I think likely there is a 'NO' vote majority, we will be in a period of major economic uncertainty, and make mistake about that.
The jingoistic approach I see from many people simply will not cut the reality of the situation after a vote to leave.
The irony being, it will be mostly on the fear of immigration, which as I said is a major loser in terms of reality, as immigrants are net contributors to the UK Economy, AND THAT IS A fact.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 02, 2016, 10:54:08 AM
For so many reasons we will be better out of the EU. I have seen what the EU does in other European countries, Spain has seen the cost of goods and services rise significantly over the last 16 years, what was once a cheap country to live in has been destroyed. The Spanish have near 20% unemployment with no signs of that improving, millions of youngsters cannot get jobs so look abroad. This is not what I want for my country, the sooner we leave the better!
As for migrants, we should be operating a zero tolerance policy, kick out the million illegal spongers and have a proper system based on potential immigrants having a trade or qualification as operates in Australia.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2016, 10:54:14 AM
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 02, 2016, 11:04:03 AM
Something you must keep in mind too is the question of the EU's viability should the UK leave. My own view is that other countries will follow suit leaving the EU as nothing more than Germany and possibly France with a bunch of eastern bloc States. I know for a fact the Spanish and the Portuguese people want the hell out so watch this space if the UK go. The propped up Euro will be the first to fall as more countries follow Greece down the tube.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2016, 11:09:44 AM
Something you must keep in mind too is the question of the EU's viability should the UK leave. My own view is that other countries will follow suit leaving the EU as nothing more than Germany and possibly France with a bunch of eastern bloc States. I know for a fact the Spanish and the Portuguese people want the hell out so watch this space if the UK go. The propped up Euro will be the first to fall as more countries follow Greece down the tube.
If they leave, they will suffer Economic disaster.
Their economies are already fragile, made worse by the Euro currency.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 02, 2016, 11:12:42 AM
If they leave, they will suffer Economic disaster.
Their economies are already fragile, made worse by the Euro currency.
The Spanish hate the Euro and with good cause. The Germans want to control Europe and the UK with it. If they couldn't do it by force they want to do it by stealth. I say on yer bike Fritz!! ...or should that be Angela?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2016, 12:42:06 PM
The Spanish hate the Euro and with good cause. The Germans want to control Europe and the UK with it. If they couldn't do it by force they want to do it by stealth. I say on yer bike Fritz!! ...or should that be Angela?
You'very been reading too many of the Sun headlines John.
The third Reich is dead and buried.
Just remember we are the sick man of Europe in regard to economic output per unit worker.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Admin on June 02, 2016, 09:03:06 PM
The cat is well and truly out of the bag. Twice tonight on the Sky News referendum debate Prime Minister David Cameron admitted that the real reason he wants the UK to remain within the EU is to protect the Financia Services industry in London. To hell with the rest of the country as long as the fat cats in London continue to have their cream.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2016, 09:33:31 PM
The cat is well and truly out of the bag. Twice tonight on the Sky News referendum debate Prime Minister David Cameron admitted that the real reason he wants the UK to remain within the EU is to protect the Financia Services industry in London. To hell with the rest of the country as long as the fat cats in London continue to have their cream.
The fat cats Admin will still get their money, come what may, don't even think they won't.
I feel sorry for those who will lose their jobs when the finance sector moves into Europe, as they will, along with other firms, if we leave the EU.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 02, 2016, 10:18:22 PM
The fat cats Admin will still get their money, come what may, don't even think they won't.
I feel sorry for those who will lose their jobs when the finance sector moves into Europe, as they will, along with other firms, if we leave the EU.
It may be shaky but look on the bright side, we can reclaim our fishing industry,farmingndustry to feed our nation,jobs in the IT sector are going to have a huge input, our science industry is now taking hold STEMS are leading the way. We are now heading for a real change wether that is civil war or civil retreat from our stifled 'democracy' it will happen because we have been forced into believing we are not good enough,-sick man of Europe can be reversed, we need to take our country back and be proud not ashamed of our heritage. The majority should be taken seriously. We are being invaded not by people who want to live and work here and live like us, but by many,many gangs of undesirables. Our trade is good with the rest of the world EU is not working for the people and anyone who claims it is is deluding themselves. If we are told we will fail, some will, but the rest of us will work to ensure victory!
Money was invented for free loaders,in days gone by the blacksmith would shoe a horse and the horsemen would pay with food etc then someone who has no talent or skill or is a lazy lying shyster ( Bankers) just hand over a bit of paper saying" I promise to pay the bearer of this note..."
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 03, 2016, 11:01:37 AM
Camaron looked a berk.
I await another berk tonight, called Gove.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 05, 2016, 02:24:48 PM
I was never a fan of Michael Gove but on Friday night he performed much better than Cameron did the night before. Shouty Faisal Islam looked to be under pressure as time and time again Gove got the upper hand.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 06, 2016, 06:28:31 PM
I was never a fan of Michael Gove but on Friday night he performed much better than Cameron did the night before. Shouty Faisal Islam looked to be under pressure as time and time again Gove got the upper hand.
Well, bar one question, Gove looked a total plonker.
He had no facts, only belief.
Continued to spout the crap about £350 million per week, and suggested it even was more.
TOTAL RUBBISH.
Actually admitted people would be losing their jobs, if we leave the EU, and then came up with a story about his father losing his job, I'll check that out by the way, and the old story of how they put him through private education by scrimping and saving.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 06, 2016, 06:37:19 PM
A few facts about GOVE.
He was adopted. His 'father and mother' have been told to keep quiet.
' Mrs Gove, a former lab assistant at Aberdeen University, was tending her front lawn in the sunshine yesterday, but said they had strict instructions from their son not to talk to the media. '
So there is no verification of what Gove said. I wonder why. 8)-)))
He was adopted. His 'father and mother' have been told to keep quiet.
' Mrs Gove, a former lab assistant at Aberdeen University, was tending her front lawn in the sunshine yesterday, but said they had strict instructions from their son not to talk to the media. '
So there is no verification of what Gove said. I wonder why. 8)-)))
Many family fishing businesses right down the North Sea coast from Peterhead in Scotland to Great Yarmouth and Lowstoft in England were decimated by the EU which imposed quotas on British trawlers whilst allowing the French and Spanish boats in to help themselves and offload their cargoes in foreign ports.
Snip
EE Gove and Sons was a thriving concern, employing 20 people to process and smoke fish from the North Sea, including cod and whiting.
But in the early 1980s it went under as a result, says Mr Gove, of the European common fisheries policy (CFP), which gave access to fishing grounds to boats from other countries and imposed quotas on British fishermen.
Ernest Gove, 79, and his wife Christine, 77, still live in the same neat, three-bedroom, granite semi-detached house in Aberdeen where the MP was brought up.
Mrs Gove, a former lab assistant at Aberdeen University, was tending her front lawn in the sunshine yesterday, but said they had strict instructions from their son not to talk to the media.
She did however say there was nothing left of the business in a harbour that has been constantly redeveloped since oil first boomed in the city in the 1970s
Many family fishing businesses right down the North Sea coast from Peterhead in Scotland to Great Yarmouth and Lowstoft in England were decimated by the EU which imposed quotas on British trawlers whilst allowing the French and Spanish boats in to help themselves and offload their cargoes in foreign ports.
Snip
EE Gove and Sons was a thriving concern, employing 20 people to process and smoke fish from the North Sea, including cod and whiting.
But in the early 1980s it went under as a result, says Mr Gove, of the European common fisheries policy (CFP), which gave access to fishing grounds to boats from other countries and imposed quotas on British fishermen.
Ernest Gove, 79, and his wife Christine, 77, still live in the same neat, three-bedroom, granite semi-detached house in Aberdeen where the MP was brought up.
Mrs Gove, a former lab assistant at Aberdeen University, was tending her front lawn in the sunshine yesterday, but said they had strict instructions from their son not to talk to the media.
She did however say there was nothing left of the business in a harbour that has been constantly redeveloped since oil first boomed in the city in the 1970s
I would not trust any of them on either side of the debate.
The irony of Gove complaining about the rich elite controlling Europe, when you only have to look at the current Cabinet to see the real wastes of space.
Tell me Admin, would you want Boris as PM ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 07, 2016, 10:37:44 PM
Did you watch the ITV referendum debate at 9pm Stephen?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 08, 2016, 10:20:51 AM
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 11, 2016, 10:01:44 PM
If we weren't already in the EU would you join it?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: mercury on June 11, 2016, 10:18:18 PM
There are alot of good things that come out of the EU Maybe though the project whch started as free trade and free movement of peoples got too big for its boots and started dictating on laws that had nothng to do with either of those
It seems there is a real possibility brexiters will carry the day THe arguments have not been spelt out clearly and truthfully so IMO most people will vote on gut feelings
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2016, 10:29:48 PM
There are alot of good things that come out of the EU Maybe though the project whch started as free trade and free movement of peoples got too big for its boots and started dictating on laws that had nothng to do with either of those
It seems there is a real possibility brexiters will carry the day THe arguments have not been spelt out clearly and truthfully so IMO most people will vote on gut feelings
I only hope having seen some of the moronic behaviour by brexiters in France, supporting England, it might change a few minds.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 11, 2016, 10:32:10 PM
There are alot of good things that come out of the EU Maybe though the project whch started as free trade and free movement of peoples got too big for its boots and started dictating on laws that had nothng to do with either of those
It seems there is a real possibility brexiters will carry the day THe arguments have not been spelt out clearly and truthfully so IMO most people will vote on gut feelings
The EU has declared that their aim is political unity leading to a Federal United States of Europe. Germany couldn't achieve this by force despite two world wars so are trying it now by stealth. It isn't just us Brits who want out of this mess, most of France, Portugal and Spain want out too and want their currencies back.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 11, 2016, 10:34:28 PM
The EU has declared that their aim is political unity leading to a Federal United States of Europe. Germany couldn't achieve this by force despite two world wars so are trying it now by stealth. It isn't just us Brits who want out of this mess, most of France, Portugal and Spain want out too and want their currencies back.
I didnt know this thanks Ps its a stupid idea, did they ask all the countries? Was there a vote? What a farce
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 11, 2016, 10:51:21 PM
I didnt know this thanks Ps its a stupid idea, did they ask all the countries? Was there a vote? What a farce
They use the same old security threat all the time but the truth is we don't need the EU to maintain peace in Europe, not that the toothless EU could do anything in any event. Just look at the Crimea and see what happened.
If we stay in the EU there is a good chance Turkey with its population of nearly 70 million will want a fast track membership so watch the Turkish Baths appear in a High Street near you. If Turkey and the six other eastern bloc countries who want to join get their way there will be no stopping them, our very way of life here in the UK will be under threat.
Cameron cannot negotiate his way out of a paper bag, the only way of protecting our security is to TAKE BACK CONTROL and the only way to do that is to VOTE LEAVE.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: mercury on June 11, 2016, 11:12:20 PM
Cameron was never fit to be PM
He just wanted the position without the responsibility
His stamp of approval over cuts in budgets over the most vulnerable in society was despicable
He called a referendum without thnking it through and the consequences it might create
The whole campaign has been a dogs dinner, leaving most people clueless apart from those whose minds were made up anyway
Re the immigration issue, the UK is full of immigrants, another few isnt going to change much, just going to make those who are reaponsible for negative outfall work harder
John I doubt 70m turks will suddenly have an urge to move to the UK, besides, the weather is crap
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 11, 2016, 11:55:22 PM
are any of you well informed posters aware that the referendum carries no weight at all....the decision will be made by a free vote in parliament that favours staying in....just remember where you heard it first...from me. The british public were promised a referendum...they were not promised that their view would be enforced
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: mercury on June 11, 2016, 11:58:57 PM
are any of you well informed posters aware that the referendum carries no weight at all....the decision will be made by a free vote in parliament that favours staying in....just remember where you heard it first...from me. The british public were promised a referendum...they were not promised that their view would be enforced
So there was no point in havng a referendum then? Lol
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 12, 2016, 12:04:30 AM
not really...remember where you heard it first. To leave the EU would require an act of parliament ......the house of commons is pro europe...
That's nonsense davel, a vote to leave on 23rd June will signal the start of the two year countdown to exit regardless of the House of Commons. However, while David Cameron says voters would expect the process of leaving to begin straight away, he could delay and negotiate informally in the meantime.
The Guardian has done a nice piece entitled, 'What happens next if Britain votes to leave the EU'.
That's nonsense davel, a vote to leave on 23rd June will signal the start of the two year countdown to exit regardless of the House of Commons. However, while David Cameron says voters would expect the process of leaving to begin straight away, he could delay and negotiate informally in the meantime.
The Guardian has done a nice piece entitled, 'What happens next if Britain votes to leave the EU'.
I wish it was nonsense...it isn't. An exit will require an act of parliament passed in the commons...it will be up to the MPs to put it into effect not Cameron...
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 12, 2016, 09:52:31 AM
Could MPs block an EU exit if Britain votes for it? Michael, from East Sussex asks an intriguing question - could the necessary legislation pass the Commons if all SNP and Lib Dems, nearly all Labour and many Conservative MPs were in favour of staying? The answer is that technically MPs could block an EU exit - but it would be seen as political suicide to go against the will of the people as expressed in a referendum. The referendum result is not legally binding - Parliament still has to pass the laws that will get Britain out of the 28 nation bloc, starting with the repeal of the 1972 European Communities Act. The withdrawal agreement would also have to be ratified by Parliament - the House of Lords and/or the Commons could vote against ratification, according to a House of Commons library report.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 12, 2016, 10:14:38 AM
That's nonsense davel, a vote to leave on 23rd June will signal the start of the two year countdown to exit regardless of the House of Commons. However, while David Cameron says voters would expect the process of leaving to begin straight away, he could delay and negotiate informally in the meantime.
The Guardian has done a nice piece entitled, 'What happens next if Britain votes to leave the EU'.
Actually John, you should read the last sentence on the article.
It doesn't matter how long it takes to get out Stephen but the UK is a sovereign State and ultimately can do whatever it chooses outside Europe. If we don't leave now it will be all the more difficult further down the line when irreparable damage has been done to out national identity. That said however, I am lucky to live in a part of the UK where our national identity is well established and where foreigners are limited to a few eastern Europeans. I certainly don't want my children and their children to suffer an invasion of Turkish Delight.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 12, 2016, 11:34:34 AM
It doesn't matter how long it takes to get out Stephen but the UK is a sovereign State and ultimately can do whatever it chooses outside Europe. If we don't leave now it will be all the more difficult further down the line when irreparable damage has been done to out national identity.
What damage is that John ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 12, 2016, 11:38:12 AM
It doesn't matter how long it takes to get out Stephen but the UK is a sovereign State and ultimately can do whatever it chooses outside Europe. If we don't leave now it will be all the more difficult further down the line when irreparable damage has been done to out national identity. That said however, I am lucky to live in a part of the UK where our national identity is well established and where foreigners are limited to a few eastern Europeans. I certainly don't want my children and their children to suffer an invasion of Turkish Delight.
...and our economy.
How many Eurozone countries have had bailouts lately?
Greece, Spain, Italy, Ireland.....I'm sure there are more, & they'll be needing more cash throwing into their bottomless pits.
If Europe is so great, then how is it that Antartica is the only continent with lower economic growth?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 12, 2016, 02:53:43 PM
Furthermore, we happen to live in a finite amount of space, with a finite amount of resources.
Indeed, the current housing shortfall is 10 prospective buyers to every 1 property.
I'm yet to hear from the remain camp as to how exactly this country can cater for it's own population growth, let alone cater for the extra half a million plus unwashed, that we can expect every year, what with their need for homes, doctors, faith schools &, of course, mosques.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 12, 2016, 04:22:12 PM
Not that I am biased or anything, but ...
If you vote for BREXIT I reckon we will lose somewhere between £20k and £50k on our move to Portelas, due to the impact on the exchange rate.
I don't get a vote. But if I did, I would vote for BREXIT. The last time we got to vote, it was for a common market, not whether we wanted the United States of Europe.
I miss the Escudo. And the Franc. And the Lire.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 12, 2016, 04:56:51 PM
If you vote for BREXIT I reckon we will lose somewhere between £20k and £50k on our move to Portelas, due to the impact on the exchange rate.
I don't get a vote. But if I did, I would vote for BREXIT. The last time we got to vote, it was for a common market, not whether we wanted the United States of Europe.
I miss the Escudo. And the Franc. And the Lire.
I have agree SiL, when Spain moved from the peseta to the Euro everything cost more overnight and has continued in that direction ever since. The unemployment in Spain is 20% with young people struggling to get any sort of decent job, no wonder they want to head for London and the streets paved with gold.
We didn't know it then but the Common Market was simply a ploy to suck us in to something much bigger.
I travel to Edinburgh quite often and what is becoming more common on the capital's streets are the beggars many of whom are from eastern Europe. This was never the case ten years ago. Thousands of young people born and bred in the UK cannot buy their own home because of this folly of allowing unfettered immigration to these shores. And that includes the wealthy Russians as well as the poor from the Middle East, Africa and Eastern Europe.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 13, 2016, 10:14:26 AM
The #remain campaign has nothing to offer but scaremongering, for weeks they have made out that the UK is a basket case dependent entirely on a charitable EU for its continued wellbeing. I don't know about anyone else but I find this so sickening to listen to. Has our country become so poor and so pathetic that even our own government including the opposition are running it down?
If we stay in the EU our way of life is destined to be destroyed, our laws are increasingly being tailored towards foreign cultures, our schools are being swamped by immigrants, our health service is on the verge of collapse. Our great capital city is being overrun by millions of illegals since we cannot boot them out because of EU law. All illegals who not only get here but who are picked up in the English Channel can stay, this is pathetic beyond words! The French are threatening to let all migrants set off for our shores if we vote to #leave..wtf!! People need to wake up before it is too late, our spineless government led by millionaires Cameron and Osborne is selling us down the river in order to protect vested interests in the City, I vote LEAVE LEAVELEAVE.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2016, 10:40:16 AM
The #remain campaign has nothing to offer but scaremongering, for weeks they have made out that the UK is a basket case dependent entirely on a charitable EU for its continued wellbeing. I don't know about anyone else but I find this so sickening to listen to. Has our country become so poor and so pathetic that even our own government including the opposition are running it down?
If we stay in the EU our way of life is destined to be destroyed, our laws are increasingly being tailored towards foreign cultures, our schools are being swamped by immigrants, our health service is on the verge of collapse. Our great capital city is being overrun by millions of illegals since we cannot boot them out because of EU law. All illegals who not only get here but who are picked up in the English Channel can stay, this is pathetic beyond words! The French are threatening to let all migrants set off for our shores if we vote to #leave..wtf!! People need to wake up before it is too late, our spineless government led by millionaires Cameron and Osborne is selling us down the river in order to protect vested interests in the City, I vote LEAVE.
You talk about scaremongering Angelo, that is exactly what you did in the second paragraph.
What exactly do you mean by our way of life ?
A few pints of lager, followed by a Curry or a Chinese on a Friday Night, then puked up on the streets in the early hours ?
Have you proof the French intend to let all the migrants head in our direction, or is that just rhetoric ?
I presume you heard Farage say he doesn't care if our currency is devalued ?
I find a lot of the arguments for leaving, little more than the personification of the 'little englander' mentality.
The true Brits of course are not the Anglo-Saxons, but the Gaelic people who first settled these Isles.
Gove and Johnson, of course merely see this as an opportunity to gain power,and get rid of Cameron.
I do expect a 'NO' vote, but I don't want to hear any crying from the leavers, when our economy is totally flucked up.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 13, 2016, 11:28:19 AM
You talk about scaremongering Angelo, that is exactly what you did in the second paragraph.
What exactly do you mean by our way of life ?
A few pints of lager, followed by a Curry or a Chinese on a Friday Night, then puked up on the streets in the early hours ?
Have you proof the French intend to let all the migrants head in our direction, or is that just rhetoric ?
I presume you heard Farage say he doesn't care if our currency is devalued ?
I find a lot of the arguments for leaving, little more than the personification of the 'little englander' mentality.
The true Brits of course are not the Anglo-Saxons, but the Gaelic people who first settled these Isles.
Gove and Johnson, of course merely see this as an opportunity to gain power,and get rid of Cameron.
I do expect a 'NO' vote, but I don't want to hear any crying from the leavers, when our economy is totally flucked up.
I stated a fact in my second paragraph. The difference between the #remain campaign and the #leave campaign is that the latter are speaking the truth. We are paying more and more each year to prop up third world former soviet States. All Cameron and his kind can do is quote maybe's, maybe this and maybe that, the truth being they just don't know. The #leave campaign on the other hand are stating the truth. Our country is being squeezed by unfair tariffs on world trade, our national identity and laws are being corrupted in order to facilitate eastern bloc States, our population is being artificially expanded, our entire way of life is being destroyed to accommodate the Germans whose ambition is a one size fits all Federal Europe at any cost. Sorry but I don't want to be known as a European, I am British and proud of it!
The biggest regret I have is the way we abandoned our Aussi, Kiwi and Canadian cousins by allowing the EU to destroy our special trading relationship with them. I want to see that relationship rekindled, to hell with Italy, Germany and France, wtf have they ever done for us? France was subject to German rule in 1944 as was most of Europe, they aren't much better now under EU rule still mostly controlled by the same German mentality.
ps what's a NO vote?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2016, 11:37:32 AM
The difference between the #remain campaign and the #leave campaign is that the latter are speaking the truth. All Cameron and his kind can do is quote maybe's, maybe this and maybe that, the truth being they just don't know. The #leave campaign on the other hand are stating the truth. Our country is being squeezed by unfair tariffs on world trade, our national identity and laws are being corrupted in order to facilitate eastern bloc States, our population is being artificially expanded, our entire way of life is being destroyed to accommodate the Germans whose ambition is a Federal Europe at any cost.
That is a matter of opinion Angelo.
The leave campaign is largely rhetoric and with nothing even vaguely quantitative to back up their statements and they have told blatant lies.
Likewise, and I don't deny it, that Cameron has used scare tactics. Whatever happens, he is finished.
I regularly come into contact through my work with people from a variety of backgrounds, and have no problem in doing so.
There are s..mbags in every country as we have seen in the behaviour in France at the Euros.
So please tell me what is our 'national identity' and what 'way of life' is being destroyed.
For a look at a English mentality, take a look at history. On the night before the battle of Agincourt, look at what the English soldiers were doing. It might look vaguely familiar.
P.S. 'NO' vote, I meant to say the votes to leave will win the referendum.
Tell me Angelo, will you still buy goods from Europe and go on holidays there ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 13, 2016, 11:43:31 AM
The leave campaign is largely rhetoric and with nothing even vaguely quantitative to back up their statements and they have told blatant lies.
Likewise, and I don't deny it, that Cameron has used scare tactics. Whatever happens, he is finished.
I regularly come into contact through my work with people from a variety of backgrounds, and have no problem in doing so.
There are s..mbags in every country as we have seen in the behaviour in France at the Euros.
So please tell me what is our 'national identity' and what 'way of life' is being destroyed.
For a look at a English mentality, take a look at history. On the night before the battle of Agincourt, look at what the English soldiers were doing. It might look vaguely familiar.
The #leave campaign is based on what is happening right now. Illegal immigrants walk our streets since we can't deport them because of EU laws. Do you agree with that?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2016, 11:49:04 AM
The #leave campaign is based on what is happening right now. Illegal immigrants walk our streets since we can't deport them because of EU laws. Do you agree with that?
Why can't we deport them ?
They only have a right to the first country they land in. They should be returned to those countries.
Also, it is a FACT, that those who come to this country, either from the EU or elsewhere, are net contributors to the UK economy.
As to the leave campaign, it is using , as Fargage epitomizes, scare tactics.
Like for example 500 million people could come to the UK. He obviously omits that would apply to any other EU country, and of course is PURE BULLSHITTE.
As if 500 million would come here. That is so laughable.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 13, 2016, 12:09:18 PM
Cameron is deffo history, he was forced to concede a referendum when it looked like the Tories were going to lose the general election. He tried to negotiate getting out of the EU but was outvoted and humiliated by eastern European non entities with basket case economies. Now he has tried to sell our country short in order to push the EU down our throats so yes, I don't think the electorate will ever forget what he did.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 13, 2016, 12:14:29 PM
They only have a right to the first country they land in. They should be returned to those countries.
Also, it is a FACT, that those who come to this country, either from the EU or elsewhere, are net contributors to the UK economy.
As to the leave campaign, it is using , as Fargage epitomizes, scare tactics.
Like for example 500 million people could come to the UK. He obviously omits that would apply to any other EU country, and of course is PURE BULLSHITTE.
As if 500 million would come here. That is so laughable.
There are almost 90 million people in Europe who could very well join the EU very soon, 70 million alone are from Turkey. Turkey has been playing a deadly game all along. They have allowed illegal immigrants to cross over to Greece and Europe almost unhindered. Now they have negotiated a sweet deal with the EU which will allow easier access for Turks wishing to go to Europe as long as they take back a few illegals. This is the tip of the iceberg.
Do you want this country (UK) swamped by immigrants?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2016, 12:54:55 PM
As I said.
They can only claim asylum in the country they land in.
Those others who try to come here can be sent to where they landed.
So Angelo, what is exactly our 'national identity' and 'way of life' you are referring to ?
How do you propose by the way getting rid of illegal immigrants if we leave the EU ?
I also notice the stock market is getting very jittery, and foreign investors are now looking at other European countries to invest in. This will continue and especially so on the 24 th June, when the vote will in all likelihood will be to leave.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2016, 12:56:23 PM
There are almost 90 million people in Europe who could very well join the EU very soon, 70 million alone are from Turkey. Turkey has been playing a deadly game all along. They have allowed illegal immigrants to cross over to Greece and Europe almost unhindered. Now they have negotiated a sweet deal with the EU which will allow easier access for Turks wishing to go to Europe as long as they take back a few illegals. This is the tip of the iceberg.
Do you want this country (UK) swamped by immigrants?
What will stop the Turks coming here, even if we leave the EU ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 13, 2016, 01:27:45 PM
They can only claim asylum in the country they land in.
Those others who try to come here can be sent to where they landed.
So Angelo, what is exactly our 'national identity' and 'way of life' you are referring to ?
How do you propose by the way getting rid of illegal immigrants if we leave the EU ?
I also notice the stock market is getting very jittery, and foreign investors are now looking at other European countries to invest in. This will continue and especially so on the 24 th June, when the vote will in all likelihood will be to leave.
Sorry Stephen but you must have missed something, that rule was trodden over long ago. If that was the case immigrants arriving by boat would not have been allowed to get past Greece and Italy.
By foreign investors do you mean the tax exiles and crooks from places like Russia and Saudi Arabia? London is a money laundering centre for despots and criminals from all over the world, I say good riddance to them. It is time we took back control!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2016, 03:25:04 PM
Sorry Stephen but you must have missed something, that rule was trodden over long ago. If that was the case immigrants arriving by boat would not have been allowed to get past Greece and Italy.
By foreign investors do you mean the tax exiles and crooks from places like Russia and Saudi Arabia? London is a money laundering centre for despots and criminals from all over the world, I say good riddance to them. It is time we took back control!
Personally, I blame a succession of useless governments, not the EU for controlling our borders, along with the Eurotunnel.
The latter was a big mistake, allowing illegal immigrants, easy access.
P.S. Almost forgot, the reduction in funding for border control. Nothing to do with the EU at all. Just this government and the previous one.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 13, 2016, 07:14:43 PM
Personally, I blame a succession of useless governments, not the EU for controlling our borders, along with the Eurotunnel.
The latter was a big mistake, allowing illegal immigrants, easy access.
P.S. Almost forgot, the reduction in funding for border control. Nothing to do with the EU at all. Just this government and the previous one.
In the south east we never had a problem until the French started prevaricating over the migrants milling around at their ports. These people are illegals, they have no right of entry to the UK. To be fair, the poor old French couldn't send them back because it was contrary to EU law.
Any illegal caught in transit to or in the UK should be deported within 24 hours and fingerprinted to ensure they will never get entry. A zero tolerance approach is what is required.
And another thing, many illegals found in the UK abandoned their children in France. They are now seeking to be reunited with those same children here in England. They must think we are f......n stupid!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: misty on June 13, 2016, 09:34:17 PM
There is no turning back on our membership within the EU; we are in too deep & the prospect of isolation & vulnerability to hostile invasion cannot be ignored. If we can't control immigration with the help of our neighbours, what hope of doing it on our own? How & where will we deport?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: mercury on June 14, 2016, 12:47:49 AM
In the south east we never had a problem until the French started prevaricating over the migrants milling around at their ports. These people are illegals, they have no right of entry to the UK. To be fair, the poor old French couldn't send them back because it was contrary to EU law.
Any illegal caught in transit to or in the UK should be deported within 24 hours and fingerprinted to ensure they will never get entry. A zero tolerance approach is what is required.
And another thing, many illegals found in the UK abandoned their children in France. They are now seeking to be reunited with those same children here in England. They must think we are f......n stupid!
So Angelo, can you tell me that if we leave the EU, which is I believe quite likely, and immigrants still try to get into this country, via the Eurotunnel, boats, via flights, etc.
How will it be stopped ?
We won't be able to send them to EU countries, will we. 8)-)))
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 15, 2016, 12:48:38 PM
Let all the migrants into the tunnel, then seal both ends.
That would be my policy.
Vote Trump.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2016, 08:13:10 AM
So another lie from Brexit.
Gove has lied about the sale of his adopted father's fishing business.
He wasn't forced to sell it, it was a voluntary decision.
I think 'forced to sell' covers it quite nicely considering. Or to put it another way, he would not have sold had the following not occurred. You could indeed say it was his choice but his hand was forced by various factors.
Ernest Gove told the Guardian that he sold the business voluntarily because the fishing industry in Aberdeen was being hit by a range of different factors. These included competition for space in the port from North Sea oil vessels, the Icelandic cod wars, dockworkers’ strikes and new 200-mile limits to control over-fishing.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 16, 2016, 02:05:59 PM
So Angelo, can you tell me that if we leave the EU, which is I believe quite likely, and immigrants still try to get into this country, via the Eurotunnel, boats, via flights, etc.
How will it be stopped ?
We won't be able to send them to EU countries, will we. 8)-)))
In fact we will just as we repatriated people prior to EU laws coming into effect.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2016, 02:53:39 PM
I think 'forced to sell' covers it quite nicely considering. Or to put it another way, he would not have sold had the following not occurred. You could indeed say it was his choice but his hand was forced by various factors.
Ernest Gove told the Guardian that he sold the business voluntarily because the fishing industry in Aberdeen was being hit by a range of different factors. These included competition for space in the port from North Sea oil vessels, the Icelandic cod wars, dockworkers’ strikes and new 200-mile limits to control over-fishing.
So he sold for a profit and made money.
So his adopted son was talking out of his arse.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2016, 02:56:01 PM
Labour M.P. who was shot 3 times and stabbed with a foot long knife, her attacker shouted apparently, 'Britain First'.
A lot of people feel totally disenfranchised in their own country due to the pathetic policies enacted by Blair and Brown which have literally seen millions of immigrants flood into London and the south east. God forbid if Corbyn ever came to power with his open door policies.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2016, 08:49:28 PM
A lot of people feel totally disenfranchised in their own country due to the pathetic policies enacted by Blair and Brown which have literally seen millions of immigrants flood into London and the south east. God forbid if Corbyn ever came to power with his open door policies.
Bearing in mind what has happened today Angelo in Yorkshire , that comment in my view is bad taste.
Do you know what the murderer shouted as he shot and then stabbed to death Jo Cox ?
Read above if you haven't.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 16, 2016, 09:12:38 PM
How to send your EU remain propaganda leaflet back to David Cameron.
Perhaps the local recycling bin, or as lavatory paper, as they are both full of crap.
You haven't explained your stance yet Stephen. Do you want your country overrun by thugs from Eastern Europe and the Middle East because if the status quo is maintained that is exactly where it is going?
The simple truth is that the EU has blocked repatriation of illegal immigrants so as long as we remain within the EU that will never change.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2016, 09:51:17 PM
You haven't explained your stance yet Stephen. Do you want your country overrun by thugs from Eastern Europe and the Middle East because if the status quo is maintained that is exactly where it is going?
Well John, can you prove that will happen, or is that just rhetoric ?
Both sides in this debate have told lies.
Are you going to admit the Brexit campaign have told lies ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2016, 09:54:13 PM
By the way John, we have been border controls, unfortunately the current government especially has reduced the numbers employed in that area.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Admin on June 17, 2016, 01:07:46 AM
It is a sad state of affairs that we cannot expell illegal immigrants from our own country because of the EU, every illegal picked up in the Channel, at service areas on the M20 or on the streets of our towns and cities cannot be deported. Even those convicted of the most serious crimes cannot be sent back to where they came from after they serve their sentences such is the repercussions of having to comply with EU law. We must take back control of our own country and our own destiny before it is too late.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2016, 08:49:34 AM
It is a sad state of affairs that we cannot expell illegal immigrants from our own country because of the EU, every illegal picked up in the Channel, at service areas on the M20 or on the streets of our towns and cities cannot be deported. Even those convicted of the most serious crimes cannot be sent back to where they came from after they serve their sentences such is the repercussions of having to comply with EU law. We must take back control of our own country and our own destiny before it is too late.
There are a lot of misconceptions in this case and lies from both sides.
So I will start with two of them.
Let's start with a simple one that we have no border controls .
We do, we live on an island and the seas around us are a natural border control. The only direct link is of course the Euro-tunnel, which has become the focus of attention for illegal immigrants as I thought it would, when it was built. We are also told we cannot control our borders, and that is just pure drivel. We are not part of the EU Schengen area, which some claim we are, where people from the EU can just walk in to this country as they wish. The only place where border crossings are not checked is for British or Irish citizens on the Northern Ireland/ Eire border, but those crossing to the mainland by air or ferry, do need photo I.D.
Second, that Human Rights regulations are borne from the EU. Completely false. in reality 'Human Rights' were brought into UK law by the Labour Government with the Human Rights Act 1998. Also, the Council of Europe in the aftermath of the second world war were responsible for bringing about the European Convention on Human Rights and the UK was part of it's creation.
I'll leave Boris Johnson to his bananas, which is singularly appropriate to him.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2016, 09:56:35 AM
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck_P4trXAAAYr_1.jpg)
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 17, 2016, 10:26:58 AM
Meanwhile, The leftist BBC practices blatant employment racism with it's diversity quotas, where only Black, Asian & non white ethnics need apply, & no one bats an eyelid.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2016, 10:29:26 AM
Meanwhile, The leftist BBC practices blatant employment racism with it's diversity quotas, where only Black, Asian & non white ethnics need apply, & no one bats an eyelid.
Cobblers. Heard that all before.
Cite.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 17, 2016, 10:34:12 AM
There are a lot of misconceptions in this case and lies from both sides.
So I will start with two of them.
Let's start with a simple one that we have no border controls .
We do, we live on an island and the seas around us are a natural border control. The only direct link is of course the Euro-tunnel, which has become the focus of attention for illegal immigrants as I thought it would, when it was built. We are also told we cannot control our borders, and that is just pure drivel. We are not part of the EU Schengen area, which some claim we are, where people from the EU can just walk in to this country as they wish. The only place where border crossings are not checked is for British or Irish citizens on the Northern Ireland/ Eire border, but those crossing to the mainland by air or ferry, do need photo I.D.
Second, that Human Rights regulations are borne from the EU. Completely false. in reality 'Human Rights' were brought into UK law by the Labour Government with the Human Rights Act 1998. Also, the Council of Europe in the aftermath of the second world war were responsible for bringing about the European Convention on Human Rights and the UK was part of it's creation.
More later.
The only misconception is that we can go on as we are doing and all will be rosy.
Nobody has claimed that we have no border controls since to do so would be idiotic. There are border controls but mostly at international ports and airports where passport and identity checks are routinely carried out. Staff from the Borders Agency have themselves recently complained that they are undermanned and under resourced. That in itself just goes to show that the government is complacent when it comes to protecting our borders. The truth is we cannot protect our borders, illegal immigrants are arriving by boat along the south coast of England and through the Channel Tunnel by various means. Those detected are few and far between, we never hear of the ones who get through undetected, only those found by accident.
As far as travelling from Ireland to the mainland is concerned it is possible to do so by ferry without providing any form of ID.
The Human Rights Act in the UK merely shadowed European Law. All EU States had to bring in this legislation in order to give effect to those Regulations and Protocols provided by the European Convention on Human Rights.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 17, 2016, 10:50:44 AM
That is truly appalling WS but not surprising. When tuning in to BBC News the other night I had to doublecheck the channel number as I thought I had inadvertently found BBC Africa. What the BBC and to a lesser extent Sky News is doing is to artificially represent the cultural and ethnic makeup of the UK. Maybe its time the silent majority had something to say about this?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2016, 10:52:20 AM
That is truly appalling WS but not surprising. When tuning in to BBC News the other night I had to doublecheck the channel number as I thought I had inadvertently found BBC Africa.
Appalling John ??
How many jobs were on offer ?
and for what circumstances ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 17, 2016, 10:55:12 AM
It will be interesting to see how the polls develop over the weekend after yesterday.
It will indeed. It will also be interesting to see if Parliament is recalled prior to EU Referendum vote.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 17, 2016, 12:19:23 PM
If we dump the EU and its aims of a one-size-fits-all agenda we can at last trade worldwide without customs tariffs. This protectionism was put in place to force us to buy EU goods instead of looking further afield. A mere 9% of the UK's GDP is trade with the EU with the rest being with countries outside the community. Remove the artificial tariffs and that can only get better, resulting in more employment and a lower cost of goods to the consumer.
However, the EU is as good as dead without the UK. Together with the Germans we have been subsidizing and propping it up for years. Currently there are several former Soviet Bloc countries trying to join the EU, not for our benefit but for theirs. If they do join they will be granted £ billions in aid while the rest of us have to fund it. Our economy will continue to be damaged by taking these basket case economies under our wing.
Be in no doubt, the EU is all about a political union, a federal Europe, and very little to do with preserving our way of life. The Germans are pushing for closer political union throughout Europe and we all know where that ended the last time.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2016, 01:06:56 PM
If we dump the EU and its aims of a one-size-fits-all agenda we can at last trade worldwide without customs tariffs. This protectionism was put in place to force us to buy EU goods instead of looking further afield. A mere 9% of the UK's GDP is trade with the EU with the rest being with countries outside the community. Remove the artificial tariffs and that can only get better, resulting in more employment and a lower cost of goods to the consumer.
However, the EU is as good as dead without the UK. Together with the Germans we have been subsidizing and propping it up for years. Currently there are several former Soviet Bloc countries trying to join the EU, not for our benefit but for theirs. If they do join they will be granted £ billions in aid while the rest of us have to fund it. Our economy will continue to be damaged by taking these basket case economies under our wing.
Be in no doubt, the EU is all about a political union, a federal Europe, and very little to do with preserving our way of life. The Germans are pushing for closer political union throughout Europe and we all know where that ended the last time.
I have already dealt with the trade figures issue before.
I suggest you look it up,
You clearly have this thing about the Germans.
Would you care to remind me of the productivity rates between UK workers and German ones ?
I also with my current work emcounter people from a variety of origins including those in EU countries, and the facts speak.
Those from the EU and elsewhere are net beneficiaries to the UK economy.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2016, 01:08:42 PM
Perhaps you can quantify John how exactly this countries economy is being damaged.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 17, 2016, 01:27:17 PM
Interesting that Nicola Sturgeon, head of an anti British, nationalist party should accuse Farage of racism.
Blatant hypocrite.
Sturgeon is anti English as is her nationalist party the SNP. It should be remembered however that although the SNP have managed to wrestle control of Scotland from the Labour Party that they only do so on 50% of the vote. The Scottish Referendum vote was a more accurate reflection of what the people of Scotland really think.
If the UK votes to leave the EU it will be on the basis of a split vote in Scotland, hardly a mandate for Sturgeon to do her worst!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2016, 01:48:38 PM
Sturgeon is anti English as is her nationalist party the SNP. It should be remembered however that although the SNP have managed to wrestle control of Scotland from the Labour Party that they only do so on 50% of the vote. The Scottish Referendum vote was a more accurate reflection of what the people of Scotland really think.
That does not make her a racist.
However, she is a hypocrite in wanting to leave the UK, but not the EU.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 17, 2016, 01:51:30 PM
The UK Parliament is being recalled on Monday as predicted.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 17, 2016, 01:52:37 PM
How would you describe your attitude to the Germans John ?
You referred to 'Fritz' the other day, when you commented on Merkel.
When I correctly stated that Fritz wants to control Europe by stealth since they failed to do so by force twice. Merkel sees herself as the President of the United States of Europe, a more stomach churning spectacle I could never imagine. If we ever needed a reason for getting the hell out of the EU that is by far the most compelling.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2016, 02:26:47 PM
When I correctly stated that Fritz wants to control Europe by stealth since they failed to do so by force twice. Merkel sees herself as the President of the United States of Europe, a more stomach churning spectacle I could never imagine.
That use of 'Fritz' sounds exactly like what you accuse Sturgeon of.
How exactly do you think Germany will control Europe John ?
I'm all ears.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 17, 2016, 02:33:30 PM
However, one person or one country would be incapable of controlling the whole of Europe.
I find that viewpoint quite laughable actually.
What I want to see in this debate are facts from both sides and not rhetoric.
Presumably you have some facts to back up your assertion about Merkel and Germany.
Sorry, but the photos don't impress me either.
What are you trying to achieve with them.
I would be happy to debate this with you further, face to face. This forum is limited in what can be done.
Are you opposed to the United States of America ?
Germany is by far the largest net contributor to the EU budget closely followed by the UK. For years both countries were the only net contributors, everybody else including the rest of Europe got more back than they paid in. Angela Merkel wields enormous power within the EU and has a huge influence in who become its Presidents. The recent spat between her and Cameron over the appointment of drunk Jean-Claude Juncker as president of the European Commission being a classic example given Cameron threatened to quit the EU. Strange how he now supports the remain campaign?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27653359
Rather than repeat what has already been written so eloquently about Germany and its power over the EU, the following link might help to explain it.
Germany is by far the largest net contributor to the EU budget closely followed by the UK. For years both countries were the only net contributors, everybody else including the rest of Europe got more back than they paid in.
Rather than repeat what has already been written about Germany and its power over the EU, the following link might help to explain it.
As the Telegraph want out John, I would prefer a neutral source, and I have used such material in my work.
Neutral or otherwise, it is the truth. Germany wields much greater influence and power over the EU than any other member. You only need to look at what happened in Europe recently with the migrant crisis and also with the annexation of the Crimea to Russia.
Who was at the front of the line in both crises?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 17, 2016, 04:09:12 PM
Germany is by far the largest net contributor to the EU budget closely followed by the UK. For years both countries were the only net contributors, everybody else including the rest of Europe got more back than they paid in. Angela Merkel wields enormous power within the EU and has a huge influence in who become its Presidents. The recent spat between her and Cameron over the appointment of drunk Jean-Claude Juncker as president of the European Commission being a classic example given Cameron threatened to quit the EU. Strange how he now supports the remain campaign?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27653359
Rather than repeat what has already been written so eloquently about Germany and its power over the EU, the following link might help to explain it.
Up until recently Germany was the largest exporter in the world...exporting more than china....so they can afford it
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 17, 2016, 04:37:54 PM
Not to mention their efforts to stabilise basket-case Greece from economic collapse. The strange thing though is that the majority of Germans who live abroad are not in favour of the Euro, they see it as a second rate currency and would prefer to have their Deutsch Mark back again like us Brits have the pound.
But back to the main issue, what are your thoughts on the EU referendum Stephen?
Do you want to remain in that unaccountable organisation paying more and more every year and getting less and less back?
Do you want to continue to pay overinflated prices to European manufacturers who operate under a system of protectionism?
What about immigration, are you prepared to receive millions more into this country, diluting our culture and taking jobs which should go to our children?
What about education? Are you prepared to watch as schools struggle to cope with an influx of immigrants whose children will take up valuable classroom space?
What about the NHS and hospital waiting lists? This can only get worse as immigrants who have contributed nothing to the system expect the same treatments as the rest of us?
To be honest I cannot see a single benefit to remaining in the EU but feel free to suggest one.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2016, 05:24:22 PM
Not to mention their efforts to stabilise basket-case Greece from economic collapse. The strange thing though is that the majority of Germans who live abroad are not in favour of the Euro, they see it as a second rate currency and would prefer to have their Deutsch Mark back again like us Brits have the pound.
But back to the main issue, what are your thoughts on the EU referendum Stephen?
Do you want to remain in that unaccountable organisation paying more and more every year and getting less and less back?
Do you want to continue to pay overinflated prices to European manufacturers who operate under a system of protectionism?
What about immigration, are you prepared to receive millions more into this country, diluting our culture and taking jobs which should go to our children?
What about education? Are you prepared to watch as schools struggle to cope with an influx of immigrants whose children will take up valuable classroom space?
What about the NHS and hospital waiting lists? This can only get worse as immigrants who have contributed nothing to the system expect the same treatments as the rest of us?
To be honest I cannot see a single benefit to remaining in the EU but feel free to suggest one.
Well I see a lot of what might happen in your statements there, and rhetoric.
How about some cold hard facts to back it up first.
Then I will give you my answer.
All I see in your last post is a statement that could have easily been written by Farage.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 17, 2016, 05:43:59 PM
Well John, I am quite happy to do that once I have some data/statistics to deal with from the Brexit side.
For example, we do not have an open border, as some imply. We are not part of the EU Schengen deal, are we ?
I have never seen from any member of the Brexit Team, just how they intend to control borders, if we leave the EU.
As we have approximately 7,700 miles of coastline around the UK, including the Islands, who would be monitoring that ?
The only coastline requiring monitoring is the south and south east coasts of England but that isn't the issue. At the moment would-be illegal immigrants know that once they get to the UK or even get picked up by UK maritime patrols in the English Channel that they are home free and will not be repatriated. That is unacceptable. Once the news gets round that illegals will be returned to where they originated then good old blighty ceases to be as appealing a destination as it once was.
It just isn't good enough to let every waif and stray into our country, if we do, where will it all end? Schengen is not the all and be all it is made out to be, at the moment the UK has no control over immigration to our own country and that just isn't cricket!
Vote LEAVE and take back control, it is that simple.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 18, 2016, 09:05:38 AM
The only coastline requiring monitoring is the south and south east coasts of England but that isn't the issue. At the moment would-be illegal immigrants know that once they get to the UK or even get picked up by UK maritime patrols in the English Channel that they are home free and will not be repatriated. That is unacceptable. Once the news gets round that illegals will be returned to where they originated then good old blighty ceases to be as appealing a destination as it once was.
It just isn't good enough to let every waif and stray into our country, if we do, where will it all end? Schengen is not the all and be all it is made out to be, at the moment the UK has no control over immigration to our own country and that just isn't cricket!
Vote LEAVE and take back control, it is that simple.
'good old blighty' and 'just isn't cricket' ?
More cliches.
The patrols were centered on the South East, the immigrants would try elsewhere. Your argument does not stack up
I have already asked if those immigrants were attempted to be forced to return to their original countries, and those countries said NO, what then ?
Likewise, those same people refuse to get on the transport, and violence erupts, how would it be handled ?
All I see with Brexit, is bland statements with the direct intent to inspire fear.
As I said, I know people from the EU.
One families children I tutor, have looked at the possibility of living in several countries, including countries inside and outside the EU, such as Australia. The parents did not past the 'criteria' in Australia, even though they had private wealth and both had useful skills, one is an Accountant and the other an Airline Pilot. They are now both working in the UK and have invested their money here to.
Would you say bye bye to them John ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 18, 2016, 09:26:10 AM
'Do you want to remain in that unaccountable organisation paying more and more every year and getting less and less back?'
Let's have some INDEPENDENTLY verified facts and figures on this then ?
The £350 Million claim , and more according to Boris, is pure B.S.
Including the number of companies who have invested in the UK because we are , at the moment in the EU.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 18, 2016, 09:35:54 AM
'Do you want to continue to pay overinflated prices to European manufacturers who operate under a system of protectionism? '
Cite some facts on this please.
We have been paying over inflated prices from America, as well as other countries.
e.g. http://blogs.which.co.uk/technology/news/uk-vs-us-do-we-really-pay-more/
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 18, 2016, 09:42:09 AM
'What about the NHS and hospital waiting lists? This can only get worse as immigrants who have contributed nothing to the system expect the same treatments as the rest of us? '
Would you care to remind me, why the Conservative M.P. Sarah Wollaston left Brexit, for 'Remain in Europe' ?
The Times’s editorial in Saturday’s issue concedes that, for most Britons, voting to remain inside the EU “would be a pragmatic rather than enthusiastic choice, made despite the behaviour of Brussels rather than because of it”.
To vote to leave “would be a vote of no confidence in the European project so shattering that it would rock it to the core, with unknown and possibly alarming consequences”.
It sees the “choice between change and a version of the status quo” as one “between risk and risk aversion” and argues that change “has inspired voters” because it “is more exciting than continuity, and because the status quo has become a byword for frustration”.
The paper thinks the institutions in Brussels are “undemocratic, meddling and short-sighted”, pointing to their failure to cope with the refugee crisis and the “token concessions” granted to Cameron when he sought a new EU relationship for Britain.
In such a situation, it is “the Brexiteers who seem to stand for freedom … Their vision is of a proud new independence and their account of how to get there has the romance of adventure… They are freebooting cavaliers to remain’s sturdy roundheads”.
Sign up to our EU referendum morning briefing Read more But the leave campaigners have varnished reality, says the paper. “It is not true that Britain sends £350m a week to Brussels … It is not true that EU migration is the main cause of pressure on the NHS … It is not true that Turkey is on a path to EU membership.”
Brexit, contends the Times, would not answer “the prayers of those Vote Leave is wooing.” And “a vote for Brexit is unquestionably economically riskier than a vote to remain”.
In a key paragraph, the newspaper states: “This referendum has rightly been a thunderous rebuke to Europe and a solid Brexit vote should shake Brussels out of its complacency. If Mr Cameron wins, he must seize the moment to galvanise other disgruntled allies from Denmark to Dubrovnik for a new assault on waste, red tape and anti-democratic interference.”
The Times is convinced that if Cameron wins the vote to stay in, he “would be at the peak of his powers” and “could go down in history as both an effective campaigner and the leader of a reform movement in Europe”.
It concludes that staying in “may not sound as exhilarating or romantic as a defiant march to Brexit, but it is the better choice for Britain and Europe”.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 18, 2016, 01:12:52 PM
Jo Cox murder suspect Tommy Mair tells court "my name is death to traitors, freedom for Britain"
http://www.express.co.uk/
I can't help but wonder if Jo Cox, during her time as MP, had put as much effort & interest into improving the mental health services in her constinuency, as she did into the plight of some muslim kids living some 3000 miles away.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 18, 2016, 03:03:31 PM
I can't help but wonder if Jo Cox, during her time as MP, had put as much effort & interest into improving the mental health services in her constinuency, as she did into the plight of some muslim kids living some 3000 miles away.
I had thought better of your posts Wonderfulspam.
This is not one of them.
Perhaps you should ask the constituents she served as to how much work she did there, before and after becoming an MP.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 18, 2016, 03:19:59 PM
Perhaps you should ask the constituents she served as to how much work she did there, before and after becoming an MP.
It's just cynical me.
I've since read that....
'The Telegraph has learnt that Mrs Cox, the week before she died, had raised concerns over the provision of mental health services in her constituency of Batley and Spen.
She had met with Musarrat Khan, a local Labour councillor, who herself had expressed fears that adult mental health services were under-funded at a meeting held at a Methodist Church in Batley on Thursday night.
Councillor Khan said: “We did talk about mental health and the difficulties for people with mental health problems particularly people who don’t know how to access the system and fall through the net. Jo had a good understanding of mental health issues.”
.....
I'd still be interested to know which was her priority.
...You see, I very much doubt that politicians in Syria spend a great deal of time worrying about the standards of mental health provisions in Batley & Spen.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 18, 2016, 03:28:46 PM
'The Telegraph has learnt that Mrs Cox, the week before she died, had raised concerns over the provision of mental health services in her constituency of Batley and Spen.
She had met with Musarrat Khan, a local Labour councillor, who herself had expressed fears that adult mental health services were under-funded at a meeting held at a Methodist Church in Batley on Thursday night.
Councillor Khan said: “We did talk about mental health and the difficulties for people with mental health problems particularly people who don’t know how to access the system and fall through the net. Jo had a good understanding of mental health issues.”
.....
I'd still be interested to know which was her priority.
...You see, I very much doubt that politicians in Syria spend a great deal of time worrying about the standards of mental health provisions in Batley & Spen.
It's easy to be cynical as regards the referendum.
I take nothing any Politician says as fact, and that applies to both sides. Mrs. Cox was campaigning on the 'stay in' side, and she was killed by a mentally disturbed man who had in his collection, Nazi material and other right wing propaganda.
It would be 'pleasant' to see when campaigning starts again just to see real facts debated, not hyperbole.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 18, 2016, 08:03:22 PM
One families children I tutor, have looked at the possibility of living in several countries, including countries inside and outside the EU, such as Australia. The parents did not past the 'criteria' in Australia, even though they had private wealth and both had useful skills, one is an Accountant and the other an Airline Pilot. They are now both working in the UK and have invested their money here to.
Would you say bye bye to them John ?
If they are EU citizens they are currently free to come to the UK. After #BrExit they would have to pass specific entry requirements before living and working in the UK permanently. Foreigners don't have the right to just come and settle in the UK because it suits them, at least that is the way it should be.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 18, 2016, 08:05:10 PM
If they are EU citizens they are currently free to come to the UK. After #BrExit they would have to pass specific entry requirements before living and working in the UK permanently. Foreigners don't just have the right to settle in the UK because it suits them, at least that is the way it should be.
This country has been on immigrants John.
Haven't you studied History ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 18, 2016, 08:06:26 PM
'Do you want to continue to pay overinflated prices to European manufacturers who operate under a system of protectionism? '
Cite some facts on this please.
We have been paying over inflated prices from America, as well as other countries.
e.g. http://blogs.which.co.uk/technology/news/uk-vs-us-do-we-really-pay-more/
Just as an example, you do realise we pay more for French and German cars than we would do outside the EU? At the moment we have to buy their cars on their terms in compliance with EU free trade laws. After #BrExit we will negotiate the price!
In addition, we pay a hefty tariff on any cars bought from countries outside the EU such as Japan. After #BrExit, cars from non EU countries as well as all other imported goods from China etc will be tariff free and consequently cost less.
It's that simple Stephen unless you want to go on paying purchase tax in the form of tariffs to the EU?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 18, 2016, 08:19:06 PM
'What about the NHS and hospital waiting lists? This can only get worse as immigrants who have contributed nothing to the system expect the same treatments as the rest of us? '
Would you care to remind me, why the Conservative M.P. Sarah Wollaston left Brexit, for 'Remain in Europe' ?
The Times’s editorial in Saturday’s issue concedes that, for most Britons, voting to remain inside the EU “would be a pragmatic rather than enthusiastic choice, made despite the behaviour of Brussels rather than because of it”.
Since when do we believe any rubbish printed in The Times? I hope you don't actually pay for the privilege?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 18, 2016, 08:24:54 PM
Just as an example, you do realise we pay more for French and German cars than we would do outside the EU? At the moment we have to buy their cars on their terms in compliance with EU free trade laws. After #BrExit we will negotiate the price!
In addition, we pay a hefty tariff on any cars bought from countries outside the EU such as Japan. After #BrExit, cars from non EU countries as well as all other imported goods from China etc will be tariff free and consequently cost less.
It's that simple Stephen unless you want to go on paying purchase tax in the form of tariffs to the EU?
If we leave the EU, there will be tariffs on our exports.
The imports will be more expensive, once the Pound is devalued.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 18, 2016, 08:36:33 PM
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Myster on June 19, 2016, 07:36:35 AM
Boris stands no chance of being the next PM, but be honest Stephen... who would you rather have controlling our affairs? This George Clooney lookalike, for example...
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Myster on June 19, 2016, 07:40:09 AM
This article puts the truth about the EU shinybums... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11266362/Herman-Van-Rompuy-will-be-paid-over-500000-by-the-EU-to-do-nothing.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11266362/Herman-Van-Rompuy-will-be-paid-over-500000-by-the-EU-to-do-nothing.html)
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2016, 07:49:49 AM
Boris stands no chance of being the next PM, but be honest Stephen... who would you rather have controlling our affairs? This George Clooney lookalike, for example...
He does look somewhat gaga.
He and Boris would get on well. @)(++(*
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2016, 08:26:00 AM
"The UK Statistics Authority is disappointed to note that there continue to be suggestions that the UK contributes £350 million to the EU each week, and that this full amount could be spent elsewhere," the organisation's chair Andrew Dilnot said.
"As we have made clear, the UK’s contribution to the EU is paid after the application of the rebate. We have also pointed out that there are payments received by the UK public and private sectors that are relevant here. The continued use of a gross figure in contexts that imply it is a net figure is misleading and undermines trust in official statistics."
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 19, 2016, 01:39:29 PM
You still believing the rubbish being pushed by the vested interest media?
Not all the media are for the EU.
You seem to cherry pick what supports your view and attack the alternative.
There is no denying it, the EU is a sham, it does nothing whatsoever to enhance our way of life.
By the way and since you appear to support remaining within the project, what are your reasons for doing so?
Sorry, but all I see from you are the Brexit slogans and nothing in the way of tangible facts.
I agree that the EU is far from perfect, but do really think that the UK government is really representative of the population ?
By the, why should I agree with you that the EU is a sham ?
That is your opinion.
Is the United States of America a sham as well ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 19, 2016, 02:41:45 PM
Stephen avoids answering the question so I assume he cannot do so. 8(8-))
By the way, Cameron is a liar when he claims the UK will be worse off after an exit from the EU. He is fighting for his political future but he is finished regardless.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2016, 02:48:14 PM
Stephen avoids answering the question so I assume he cannot do so. 8(8-))
By the way, Cameron is a liar when he claims the UK will be worse off after an exit from the EU. He is fighting for his political future but he is finished regardless.
I heard that line before.
I have seen nothing so far Angelo from Brexit, to show beyond any shadow of a doubt, we would be better off outside the EU.
There is a lot of hot air from both sides.
So from my point of view, I can say that Johnson , Goves and Farage are all liars too, saying the UK will be better off, out side the EU.
After all, fair's fair.
So you convince me Angelo, why I should vote to leave.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2016, 02:49:45 PM
I notice the Boris bus photo is still there. 8**8:/:
Even though I've provided evidence from an independent source, the claim is rubbish.
Post 216.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 19, 2016, 02:58:14 PM
I notice the Boris bus photo is still there. 8**8:/:
Even though I've provided evidence from an independent source, the claim is rubbish.
Post 216.
We do send the EU £350 million each and every week but get £160 million back by way of EU grants leaving £190 million which is wasted by the EU on Eastern European countries.
That £190 million would go far in helping our own poor and homeless but never mind, lets help the poor Polish and Romanians instead.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2016, 02:59:52 PM
We do send the EU £350 million each and every week but get £160 million back by way of EU grants leaving £190 million which is wasted by the EU on Eastern European countries.
You are still getting your facts wrong.
Read the link I gave you.
Post 216.
Perhaps you can also provide a breakdown of the money being 'wasted'.
If you can provide me with real quantifiable facts and not slogans, then I might change my mind.
However, I will not do so on what is largely hot air from Brexit.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 19, 2016, 03:18:04 PM
Perhaps you can also provide a breakdown of the money being 'wasted'.
If you can provide me with real quantifiable facts and not slogans, then I might change my mind.
However, I will not do so on what is largely hot air from Brexit.
Clearly you are in denial Stephen. The article you provided already provided all the fiscal figures.
Analysis by the Institute for Fiscal studies earlier this week suggests that the UK's actual net contribution to the EU is £150m a week - less than half that claimed by Vote Leave.
The operative word being NET.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2016, 03:21:26 PM
Clearly you are in denial Stephen. The article you provided already provided all the fiscal figures.
Analysis by the Institute for Fiscal studies earlier this week suggests that the UK's actual net contribution to the EU is £150m a week - less than half that claimed by Vote Leave.
The operative word being NET.
I am not in denial.
I did not say there wasn't a net contribution.
Now again, provide me with reasoned and logical arguments to leave the EU.
Show me exactly how I would benefit financially.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 19, 2016, 04:13:56 PM
More job opportunities, lower cost of living, lower taxes, cheaper foreign imports...
Hearsay.
Can you explain John how you arrive at those predictions ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 19, 2016, 05:03:19 PM
Cameron was made to look like a complete plonker when he tried to get a better deal from the EU lot. That says it all for me, if we don't get out of this sham organisation we might never get the opportunity again any time soon.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2016, 05:11:01 PM
Cameron was made to look like a complete plonker when he tried to get a better deal from the EU lot. That says it all for me, if we don't get out of this sham organisation we might never get the opportunity again any time soon.
So, Cameron is a plonker, as are Gove, Johnson, Farage and co.
They are politicians, and they talk out of their R'ses.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2016, 05:29:11 PM
Did either of you know that Johnson's father supports 'Remain'. ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 19, 2016, 05:49:23 PM
So, Cameron is a plonker, as are Gove, Johnson, Farage and co.
They are politicians, and they talk out of their R'ses.
Cameron was most certainly told to do one by Merkel and her Euro friends. Talk about getting the crumbs of the EU table!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 19, 2016, 07:38:15 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owI7DOeO_yg
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 19, 2016, 07:47:08 PM
Speaking on BBC Question Time today, David Cameron continued to deny that Turkey could join the EU and refused to say that he would veto such an application.
Speaking on BBC Question Time today, David Cameron continued to deny that Turkey could join the EU and refused to say that he would veto such an application.
"I want us to pave the way from Ankara to Brussels"
What a hypocrite!
A politician being a hypocrite ? @)(++(* @)(++(*
Whatever next.
Perhaps Boris saying he was in favour of the single market 3 years ago and now has changed his mind. Now didn't Boris criticize Cameron for changing his mind on some issues ?
Yes he did.
So what does that make Boris then ? %£5&%
By the way John, the UK has a veto on other countries being brought into the EU.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2016, 08:01:28 PM
New Brussels report reveals that NHS will be killed off if Britain remain in EU Hundreds of papers from the secretive trade talks between the US and EU have been released online.
They appear to confirm fears that the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership talks between Brussels and Washington will, when ratified, lead to the health service being privatised or dismantled.
The documents, obtained by Greenpeace Netherlands, include a US proposal to have a committee with representatives from Washington and Brussels to meet each year “to review state-owned enterprises and monopolies” which would include the NHS.
A MAJOR leak from Brussels has revealed the NHS will be killed off if Britain remains in the European Union.
By DAVID MADDOX PUBLISHED: 06:05, Tue, May 3, 2016 | UPDATED: 15:26, Wed, May 25, 2016
New Brussels report reveals that NHS will be killed off if Britain remain in EU Hundreds of papers from the secretive trade talks between the US and EU have been released online.
They appear to confirm fears that the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership talks between Brussels and Washington will, when ratified, lead to the health service being privatised or dismantled.
The documents, obtained by Greenpeace Netherlands, include a US proposal to have a committee with representatives from Washington and Brussels to meet each year “to review state-owned enterprises and monopolies” which would include the NHS.
No, just decent hard working people who don't want a bunch of loons like Farage and Boris in government. 8)-)))
By the looks of it we are all sunk then. 8(8-)) Is there anyone fit to run this country any more?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: G-Unit on June 20, 2016, 12:11:29 AM
George Osborne is saying on 'Peston' that leaving the EU will benefit the rich and the poorer people will have to pay. Is it me or is he a member of a Party which has always supported the interests of the rich? Under the rule of the Government of which he is a member the gap between rich and poor has widened. Under the same Government the poor have seen many cuts to services they rely on. Why then is he supporting the 'Remain' campaign?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 20, 2016, 08:12:11 AM
George Osborne is saying on 'Peston' that leaving the EU will benefit the rich and the poorer people will have to pay. Is it me or is he a member of a Party which has always supported the interests of the rich? Under the rule of the Government of which he is a member the gap between rich and poor has widened. Under the same Government the poor have seen many cuts to services they rely on. Why then is he supporting the 'Remain' campaign?
I totally agree.
I would have thought his natural inclination would be with Brexit. I wonder if his friendship with Cameron coloured his position.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: G-Unit on June 20, 2016, 08:37:47 AM
Dunno. Why would the rich and powerful want what membership of the EU can offer? It's easier to set up branches of businesses in low wage European countries. Free movement of labour means the most talented and hard-working will head to the countries such as the UK where pay is better. Power may be on offer if a European Government and European armed forces become reality. Many rich people probably find it convenient to have bases in different European countries and easier to travel from house to house.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: misty on June 20, 2016, 01:29:30 PM
Dunno. Why would the rich and powerful want what membership of the EU can offer? It's easier to set up branches of businesses in low wage European countries. Free movement of labour means the most talented and hard-working will head to the countries such as the UK where pay is better. Power may be on offer if a European Government and European armed forces become reality. Many rich people probably find it convenient to have bases in different European countries and easier to travel from house to house.
Our financial services produce a positive input to GDP. More US dollars are traded in the UK than the US. They help to offset our ever-increasing deficit in trading of other goods. If we leave the EU, many rich foreign investors will simply move their finances to Luxembourg or Switzerland. Our deficit will then increase dramatically & the prospects for our country disastrous.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alfie on June 20, 2016, 02:16:33 PM
Interesting thread - in that it throws sceptics and supporters up in the air in one argument only for some of them to land on different sides of the fence in another argument - whoever thought I'd ever be agreeing with Stephen?! @)(++(*
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 20, 2016, 02:38:55 PM
Our financial services produce a positive input to GDP. More US dollars are traded in the UK than the US. They help to offset our ever-increasing deficit in trading of other goods. If we leave the EU, many rich foreign investors will simply move their finances to Luxembourg or Switzerland. Our deficit will then increase dramatically & the prospects for our country disastrous.
That is correct - we can trade in insurance, banking and finance throughout the EU under the passporting arrangements, a feature of the EU which benefits the UK far more that rivals such as Frankfurt or Paris. About a third of our financial services exports are to Europe. This leads to a trade surplus in financial services with Europe of around £60bn
If we Brexit, most of that will go. Not immediately but over a very few years. And this puts the UK net contribution of around £10bn to the EU budget into context. I get the argument that not paying this to the EU coffers will enable us to spend it elsewhere, but it is a trivial amount of money (1.2% of UK budget of £777bn) and will only go far.
If we lost half of our EU financial service business to EU based competitors then that would be a net "hit" of three times the savings on EU membership.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 20, 2016, 03:04:50 PM
Interesting thread - in that it throws sceptics and supporters up in the air in one argument only for some of them to land on different sides of the fence in another argument - whoever thought I'd ever be agreeing with Stephen?! @)(++(*
I agree with that. It just goes to show. 8(0(*
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 20, 2016, 03:22:07 PM
George Osborne is saying on 'Peston' that leaving the EU will benefit the rich and the poorer people will have to pay. Is it me or is he a member of a Party which has always supported the interests of the rich? Under the rule of the Government of which he is a member the gap between rich and poor has widened. Under the same Government the poor have seen many cuts to services they rely on. Why then is he supporting the 'Remain' campaign?
Might be something to do with selling luxury wallpaper to Europe? We won't even mention the fact that the Osborne family business hasn't paid a penny in corporation tax for seven years despite paying the Chancellor and other share holders a six figure sum in dividends. According to the Sunday Times, records for the interior design group, which has its head office in London, show that it pays its senior director £684,000 a year, employs 195 people and also apparently reveal that the firm made profits in the year to March 2015 of £722,200 on revenues of £34 million.
“Gorgeous” George Osborne, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, has deployed harsh words in public about companies’ aggressive tax avoidance strategies. But it seems that when it comes to his own business interests, he is far more forgiving.
Listening to the likes of Osborne bleating on about the poor in society is cringeworthy.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 20, 2016, 03:28:47 PM
Interesting thread - in that it throws sceptics and supporters up in the air in one argument only for some of them to land on different sides of the fence in another argument - whoever thought I'd ever be agreeing with Stephen?! @)(++(*
Does this rate as a miracle Alfie? 8)--))
and likewise JP.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 20, 2016, 03:31:29 PM
Might be something to do with selling luxury wallpaper to Europe? We won't even mention the fact that the Osborne family business hasn't paid a penny in corporation tax for seven years despite paying the Chancellor and other share holders a six figure sum in dividends. According to the Sunday Times, records for the interior design group, which has its head office in London, show that it pays its senior director £684,000 a year, employs 195 people and also apparently reveal that the firm made profits in the year to March 2015 of £722,200 on revenues of £34 million.
“Gorgeous” George Osborne, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, has deployed harsh words in public about companies’ aggressive tax avoidance strategies. But it seems that when it comes to his own business interests, he is far more forgiving.
Listening to the likes of Osborne bleating on about the poor in society is cringeworthy.
I don't trust Osborne either.
However, it won't change my views on the referendum.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 20, 2016, 03:37:11 PM
Interesting thread - in that it throws sceptics and supporters up in the air in one argument only for some of them to land on different sides of the fence in another argument - whoever thought I'd ever be agreeing with Stephen?! @)(++(*
However, it won't change my views on the referendum.
So let's see, you both agree with giving away nearly £200 million to the EU each and every week to squander on eastern European States, agree with the concept of a European Army and are quite willing to welcome the 70 million Turks into our country to live and work?
Personally its a no brainer but over to you Stephen and Alf?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 20, 2016, 03:48:46 PM
So let's see, you both agree with giving away nearly £200 million to the EU each and every week to squander on eastern European States, agree with the concept of a European Army and are quite willing to welcome the 70 million Turks into our country to live and work?
Personally its a no brainer but over to you Stephen and Alf?
You are making up figures again John.
I have asked you to state where this money goes.
You haven't replied.
We have a veto as other countries do for Turkey's entrance, and since Turkey has been assisting ISIL, no chance.
European army ?
We will see on that.
Are you forgetting our Financial Trade surplus with the EU.
I see that Nissan are taking legal action against the 'Vote Leave' campaign for using the Nissan logo in their literature.
So what do you think of Boris Johnson's father backing the 'Remain Campaign ' ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 20, 2016, 04:03:38 PM
We have a veto as other countries do for Turkey's entrance, and since Turkey has been assisting ISIL, no chance.
European army ?
We will see on that.
Are you forgetting our Financial Trade surplus with the EU.
I see that Nissan are taking legal action against the 'Vote Leave' campaign for using the Nissan logo in their literature.
So what do you think of Boris Johnson's father backing the 'Remain Campaign ' ?
These figures have been independently verified by the Office for National Statistics which you yourself linked to so I would appreciate a retraction of your claim that I made them up. Regardless, the fact that we send well over £100 million to the EU each and every week never to see it again is a national disgrace.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 20, 2016, 04:13:51 PM
The £350m-a-week figure comes from the Office for National Statistics, which said the UK contributed £365m a week to the EU in 2014 (or £335m on average in 2010-14).
So what's the real figure? The UK Statistics Authority dealt with this in the letter they sent last month.
They started with the £19.1bn total figure handed over from the British government to the EU in 2014 (£365m a week).
Then they took away certain benefits to the UK in three steps:
1. Add the government's rebate This was worth £4.4bn in 2014.
Factor it in and you get Britain paying £14.7bn to the EU (£285m a week).
If you take an average for 2010-2014 you get Britain paying £13.9bn (£270m a week).
2. Add direct EU payments to the public sector These were worth £4.8bn in 2014.
Factor them in too and you get Britain paying £9.8bn to the EU (£190m a week).
If you take an average for 2010-2014 you get Britain paying £8.9bn (£170m a week).
So let's see, you both agree with giving away nearly £200 million to the EU each and every week to squander on eastern European States, agree with the concept of a European Army and are quite willing to welcome the 70 million Turks into our country to live and work?
Personally its a no brainer but over to you Stephen and Alf?
Under what Gove and Johnson have portrayed as the "yoke" of European membership, the UK has managed to still be the 5th largest economy in the world. As such, I believe we are capable of making a contribution to assist the poorer countries and help them to develop their economies. The cost - £10bn - roughly. That's just over 1.3% of our annual budget. (our GDP is around £200bn). In other words, not much more than a rounding error.
Of the UK labour force of around 31m, some 4.9m were not born in the UK. (2015 figures)
Of these 2.9m were born outside of Europe. The number of eastern European migrants working in the UK are just under 1m = so just over 3% of uk workers are migrants from Eastern Europe.
The working age population of all of the countries in Eastern Europe who fall into the free movement category is around 70m - so around 1.4% of their working population are now in the UK. .
The total population of Turkey is 73m. Are you suggesting that all of them will immediately come to the UK?
Finally, will Turkey succeed in becoming a member of the EU? Not the way they are going they wont.
These figures have been independently verified by the Office for National Statistics which you yourself linked to so I would appreciate a retraction of your claim that I made them up. Regardless, the fact that we send well over £100 million to the EU each and every week never to see it again is a national disgrace.
The link stated the amount was paid after the rebate.
Second, can you supply the exact net figure and then where is the net paid ?
I did not mean to infer that you made up a net amount, but please be concise with the figures.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 20, 2016, 04:47:16 PM
Under what Gove and Johnson have portrayed as the "yoke" of European membership, the UK has managed to still be the 5th largest economy in the world. As such, I believe we are capable of making a contribution to assist the poorer countries and help them to develop their economies. The cost - £10bn - roughly. That's just over 1.3% of our annual budget. (our GDP is around £200bn). In other words, not much more than a rounding error.
Of the UK labour force of around 31m, some 4.9m were not born in the UK. (2015 figures)
Of these 2.9m were born outside of Europe. The number of eastern European migrants working in the UK are just under 1m = so just over 3% of uk workers are migrants from Eastern Europe.
The working age population of all of the countries in Eastern Europe who fall into the free movement category is around 70m - so around 1.4% of their working population are now in the UK. .
The total population of Turkey is 73m. Are you suggesting that all of them will immediately come to the UK?
Finally, will Turkey succeed in becoming a member of the EU? Not the way they are going they wont.
Under what Gove and Johnson have portrayed as the "yoke" of European membership, the UK has managed to still be the 5th largest economy in the world. As such, I believe we are capable of making a contribution to assist the poorer countries and help them to develop their economies. The cost - £10bn - roughly. That's just over 1.3% of our annual budget. (our GDP is around £200bn). In other words, not much more than a rounding error.
Of the UK labour force of around 31m, some 4.9m were not born in the UK. (2015 figures)
Of these 2.9m were born outside of Europe. The number of eastern European migrants working in the UK are just under 1m = so just over 3% of uk workers are migrants from Eastern Europe.
The working age population of all of the countries in Eastern Europe who fall into the free movement category is around 70m - so around 1.4% of their working population are now in the UK. .
The total population of Turkey is 73m. Are you suggesting that all of them will immediately come to the UK?
Finally, will Turkey succeed in becoming a member of the EU? Not the way they are going they wont.
John - I accept that you are a passionate advocate of leave, but it may be better to base your reasons on sober facts than wild assumptions.
But they are. I have watched as immigrants from Eastern Europe have displaced our young people out of jobs and my region is by no means what I would call a high migrant area. If this continues my children and grandchildren will struggle to find employment within their own region. It is all very well allowing migrants into the UK but it must be done in a constructive manner and not as it is being done now. Cameron's immigration policy is in tatters, his promises have been broken. The Government claims that they control immigration but that is a lie. Each and every illegal immigrant who makes it to the UK is allowed to stay and that is a joke!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 20, 2016, 04:56:18 PM
The link stated the amount was paid after the rebate.
Second, can you supply the exact net figure and then where is the net paid.
I did not mean to infer that you made up a net amount, but please be concise with the figures.
So we can agree on something! I agree that basing things on facts is helpful to all sides.
"The UK’s net contribution to the EU Budget in 2015 is estimated at £8.5 billion, up from £4.3 billion in 2009 and down from £9.8 billion in 2014. It is forecast to fluctuate between £11.2 billion and £7.3 billion a year between 2016 and 2020."
But they are. I have watched as immigrants from Eastern Europe have displaced our young people out of jobs and my region is by no means what I would call a high migrant area. If this continues my children and grandchildren will struggle to find employment within their own region. It is all very well allowing migrants into the UK but it must be done in a constructive manner and not as it VI's being done now. Cameron's immigration policy is in tatters, his promises have been broken. The Government claims that they control immigration but that is a lie. Each and every illegal immigrant who makes it to the UK is allowed to stay and that is a joke!
We have dealt with this before John.
Migrants from inside and outside the EU are net beneficiaries to the UK treasury.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 20, 2016, 05:03:55 PM
So we can agree on something! I agree that basing things on facts is helpful to all sides.
"The UK’s net contribution to the EU Budget in 2015 is estimated at £8.5 billion, up from £4.3 billion in 2009 and down from £9.8 billion in 2014. It is forecast to fluctuate between £11.2 billion and £7.3 billion a year between 2016 and 2020."
You forgot the bit which stated that it is forecast to fluctuate between £11.2 billion and £7.3 billion a year between 2016 and 2020.
That is up to £215 million a week net.
As for Turkey with its 70 million population, Cameron has refused to state he would veto their entry to the EU because he and the other 27 EU State leaders have agreed a deal in secret to back Turkey. Cameron is a liar when he states that Turkey will never join the EU or that a EU Army will never happen. If we maintain the status quo that is exactly where it is going.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 20, 2016, 05:08:04 PM
But they are. I have watched as immigrants from Eastern Europe have displaced our young people out of jobs and my region is by no means what I would call a high migrant area. If this continues my children and grandchildren will struggle to find employment within their own region. It is all very well allowing migrants into the UK but it must be done in a constructive manner and not as it is being done now. Cameron's immigration policy is in tatters, his promises have been broken. The Government claims that they control immigration but that is a lie. Each and every illegal immigrant who makes it to the UK is allowed to stay and that is a joke!
Illegal immigration is a different matter - I do not understand how quitting the EU will solve that.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 20, 2016, 05:13:20 PM
So let's see, you both agree with giving away nearly £200 million to the EU each and every week to squander on eastern European States, agree with the concept of a European Army and are quite willing to welcome the 70 million Turks into our country to live and work?
Personally its a no brainer but over to you Stephen and Alf?
What??! It seems to me that someone has fallen for Nige and company's propaganda hook, line and stinker!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 20, 2016, 05:33:03 PM
Why not be a bit more even handed in your argument, John.
Up to £215m a week or down to £140m a week net.
That's the problem, even the UK Government don't know for sure how much we throw away to the EU every week and yet the Tories can cut the benefits and services to our own people.. That is appalling!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 20, 2016, 05:35:23 PM
That's the problem, even the UK Government don't know for sure how much we throw away to the EU every week and yet the Tories can cut the benefits and services to our own people.. That is appalling!
Do you understand what is meant by 'forecast"?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 20, 2016, 05:36:43 PM
I say dump the EU and their artificial tariffs, after all, a mere 9% of the UK's GDP is trade with the EU. Open up free trade links with India, China, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Middle East. Close entry to all illegal immigrants and only allow immigration on a select basis. I hasten to add Cameron must go because he has shown by his actions that he is incapable of putting Britain first!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 20, 2016, 06:05:03 PM
I say dump the EU and their artificial tariffs, after all, a mere 9% of the UK's GDP is trade with the EU. Open up free trade links with India, China, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Middle East. Close entry to all illegal immigrants and only allow immigration on a select basis. I hasten to add Cameron must go because he has shown by his actions that he is incapable of putting Britain first!
The vital fact is that around 44% of our trade in goods and services is with the EU. Are we stopped from trading with India, USA, China, Australia etc?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alfie on June 20, 2016, 06:16:16 PM
Instead of denigrating, could you explain why we are better off remaining within the EU?
I'm sorry John, but I don't really think you want to hear the arguments for remaining, instead you just want to fling out daft accusations like J-P and I want a European army and want to welcome 70 million Turks to this country. Did I, or J-P say this? You're relying on anti EU propaganda to try and win your argument IMO.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alfie on June 20, 2016, 06:18:16 PM
I say dump the EU and their artificial tariffs, after all, a mere 9% of the UK's GDP is trade with the EU. Open up free trade links with India, China, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Middle East. Close entry to all illegal immigrants and only allow immigration on a select basis. I hasten to add Cameron must go because he has shown by his actions that he is incapable of putting Britain first!
A bit of a toxic phrase in light of recent events.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alfie on June 20, 2016, 06:21:50 PM
I say dump the EU and their artificial tariffs, after all, a mere 9% of the UK's GDP is trade with the EU. Open up free trade links with India, China, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Middle East. Close entry to all illegal immigrants and only allow immigration on a select basis. I hasten to add Cameron must go because he has shown by his actions that he is incapable of putting Britain first!
By definition we do not currently offer open entry to illegal immigrants, so how do you propose to deal with this particular issue? What is your view of Boris' wish to give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants if the Leave campaign wins?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 20, 2016, 06:32:29 PM
The vital fact is that around 44% of our trade in goods and services is with the EU. Are we stopped from trading with India, USA, China, Australia etc?
Yes in fact we are restricted because of EU customs tariffs we have to pay more.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 20, 2016, 06:34:22 PM
I'm sorry John, but I don't really think you want to hear the arguments for remaining, instead you just want to fling out daft accusations like J-P and I want a European army and want to welcome 70 million Turks to this country. Did I, or J-P say this? You're relying on anti EU propaganda to try and win your argument IMO.
So you like everyone else cannot construct a reason for staying in the EU but instead trundle out the same old rhetoric. Why am I not surprised.
Could it be as I suspect that only those with a vested interest in remaining in the EU are going to vote #remain?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 20, 2016, 06:35:53 PM
By definition we do not currently offer open entry to illegal immigrants, so how do you propose to deal with this particular issue? What is your view of Boris' wish to give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants if the Leave campaign wins?
No amnesty to any illegals. Round them up and deport them! And that includes the overstayers too!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: misty on June 20, 2016, 06:47:39 PM
Pardon? What are you on about? It is a fact that the phrase "Britain First" is somewhat toxic at the moment as it happens to be the name of a band of neo Nazis that inspired some maniac to kill an innocent woman. Or is it propaganda to mention that fact now?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alfie on June 20, 2016, 06:49:31 PM
So you like everyone else cannot construct a reason for staying in the EU but instead trundle out the same old rhetoric. Why am I not surprised.
Could it be as I suspect that only those with a vested interest in remaining in the EU are going to vote #remain?
So around half the population then. My principle reason for wishing to remain is that I think that a vote to leave will cause unprecedented economic crisis for years to come. Leave campaigners tell me "never mind, it's only the economy, it'll be fine" but I'm sorry - the economy drives pretty much everything else, and "don't worry, it'll be fine" doesn't really inspire much confidence. So I'm not prepared to risk the country's economic health (and knock-on effect a meltdown would have on every single person on this island's standard of living) on some wishful thinking. Stay in the EU, push for reform, that's what I vote for. Now your turn to denigrate me!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Myster on June 20, 2016, 07:13:36 PM
So around half the population then. My principle reason for wishing to remain is that I think that a vote to leave will cause unprecedented economic crisis for years to come. Leave campaigners tell me "never mind, it's only the economy, it'll be fine" but I'm sorry - the economy drives pretty much everything else, and "don't worry, it'll be fine" doesn't really inspire much confidence. So I'm not prepared to risk the country's economic health (and knock-on effect a meltdown would have on every single person on this island's standard of living) on some wishful thinking. Stay in the EU, push for reform, that's what I vote for. Now your turn to denigrate me!
I've already voted for - "Out Demons Out!"... and my bets are on this lady eventually replacing Cameron.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alfie on June 20, 2016, 07:14:59 PM
Out of interest, if we vote out, then what happens to all the EU migrants that are here currently - here legally now, at what point, if ever, do they become illegal migrants?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 20, 2016, 07:28:33 PM
So you like everyone else cannot construct a reason for staying in the EU but instead trundle out the same old rhetoric. Why am I not surprised.
Could it be as I suspect that only those with a vested interest in remaining in the EU are going to vote #remain?
You raise a fair point John. OK
Why do I think we should remain the EU.
Positive -
We have had an unprecedented period of peace in Europe. Partly as a result of the EU.
We have unfettered access to a market of getting on for 500m people.
EU laws provide harmonisation of regulations, trading laws and product specifications across 28 member states.
A vital part of our exports are invisibles, mainly banking, insurance and finance - and EU passport is essential to trading in the EU.
EU citizens can work, live study and travel freely in all member states. This provides opportunities for many people.
We have EU migration of around 160k a year. Migrants only come to economically successful countries.
This comes at a cost. We have discussed this. Around 10bn a year. And some immigration, but only about a half of our total current immigration.
In the event of brexit and wishing to maintain a trade agreement with the EU we wil still contribute to the EU budget. We will still have to allow free movement of labour. That is the practical reality.
I do have some concerns - the EU is far from perfect and there needs some legal and accountability reforms. There is work to be done but we need to be at the table to negotiate those reforms. Trying to do so from outside will, in my view, simply not work.
But I have yet to see any compelling reasons to abandon the EU and all of the advantages.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 20, 2016, 07:49:08 PM
I have just read the article Myster and quite frankly fail to see any logic in leaving.
Why if our economy is doing so well, potentially jeopardise that, with a 'belief' that the economy will do even better, and knowing that many companies have invested here, as the UK has direct access to the EU market.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 20, 2016, 08:34:20 PM
I have just read the article Myster and quite frankly fail to see any logic in leaving.
Why if our economy is doing so well, potentially jeopardise that, with a 'belief' that the economy will do even better, and knowing that many companies have invested here, as the UK has direct access to the EU market.
In fairness Stephen there are some problems. But for example Germany manages to produce a trade surplus outside the EU so it can be done under the present rules.
In essence I agree with you - why change a winning game?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 20, 2016, 08:50:11 PM
In fairness Stephen there are some problems. But for example Germany manages to produce a trade surplus outside the EU so it can be done under the present rules.
In essence I agree with you - why change a winning game?
I agree JP, the EU is far from perfect.
However, as you say, why change a winning game.
I also believe we have a moral responsibility, which can also benefit us in the long run financially, by helping to invest in and expand the less developed economies, both inside the EU and out.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 20, 2016, 08:59:08 PM
I also believe we have a moral responsibility, which can also benefit us in the long run financially, by helping to invest in and expand the less developed economies, both inside the EU and out.
That is a point well made, and I agree.
One of the critisisms of the EU is that they have subsidised the moving / development of manufacturing to Poland / Hungary / Romania etc etc.
In my view you can either accept immigrant workers to your own county or take the work to their country - which has the benefit of providing economic development in the poorer parts. It is something the Chinese are actually leading in in Africa.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Admin on June 20, 2016, 11:18:10 PM
The Daily Telegraph and The Guardian have tonight declared their allegiances in the EU referendum with the former lending support to the Leave campaign while the latter goes down the Remain road.
It will be interesting to observe the Tory party after the result is announced after Cameron stated he will stay on regardless of the decision.
I have found the 'Little Englander' attitude on display from many of the Leave Campaign quite nauseating.
I am struggling too. And have concerns about the 'tribal' divisions that have been thrown into shap relief. I am not sure that any of the politicians come out of this with much credit. I gather from more politically aware friends that Cameron offered a referendum to shoot the UKIP fox, and was as gobsmacked as anyone to get a majority.
That is why I am trying to base my argument on the basic facts rather than the personalities involved. One upside is that it has engaged a lot of people, and especially the young, with politics, international relations and trade in a way that has not happened before
I am quite passionate about wanting the UK to remain in Europe. But whatever the result, I will cheerfully accept the democratic decision of the people and look to the future in a positive way. I hope everyone else will do the same.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 21, 2016, 11:08:26 AM
Euro 2016 fans stranded as 300 migrants storm Calais chanting ‘F*** the UK’
If the home countries refuse to take them back, stick em on a leaky, unfueled boat, tow them out to the mid atlantic & leave them there.
In the words of a former Tennis Star, 'you cannot be serious'.
Tell me Spam, we have apparently the 5 th highest economy in the world, which depends on a significant number of workers from the EU working in a variety of companies in the UK.
Would you send them all back ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 21, 2016, 11:46:34 AM
Can you explain how leaving the EU will solve this problem. The migrants in question are, I gather, from outside the EU and are not EU citizens with a right to live and work in the UK.
So this is in fact a completely separate issue and nothing whatever to do with the referendum on whether the uk should leave or remain in the EU.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 21, 2016, 11:47:02 AM
Can you explain how leaving the EU will solve this problem. The migrants in question are, I gather, from outside the EU and are not EU citizens with a right to live and work in the UK.
So this is in fact a completely separate issue and nothing whatever to do with the referendum on whether the uk should leave or remain in the EU.
..... EU countries (our supposed allies) have knowingly allowed the vagrants to cross their borders... destined for Britain.
Voting leave will send the message to Europe & the rest of the world 'F*** off, we're full'.
Vote Leave.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 21, 2016, 11:55:50 AM
Joking aside, the Australian system has been mentioned as being the foundation on which the UK government could build a proper immigration policy. It's all very well the likes of Jeremy Corbyn saying he doesn't care where workers in the NHS come from because he should care. With comments like that there is more chance of Turkey joining the EU than there is of him ever becoming PM. Every single poll shows that born and bred British people are sick to the back teeth of illegal immigrants being treated as if they have some God-given right to stay in this country.
Our entire way of life is under threat by do-gooders whose meddling is disturbing the natural order of things and we all know where that ends.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 21, 2016, 11:56:37 AM
Joking aside, the Australian system has been mentioned as being the foundation on which the UK government could build a proper immigration policy. It's all very well the likes of Jeremy Corbyn saying he doesn't care where workers in the NHS come from because he should care. With comments like that there is more chance of Turkey joining the EU than there is of him ever becoming PM. Every single poll shows that born and bred British people are sick to the back teeth of illegal immigrants being treated as if they have some God-given right to stay in this country.
Utter rubbish.
We have a veto on new EU membership, as do other countries.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 21, 2016, 11:59:46 AM
Joking aside, the Australian system has been mentioned as being the foundation on which the UK government could build a proper immigration policy. It's all very well the likes of Jeremy Corbyn saying he doesn't care where workers in the NHS come from because he should care. With comments like that there is more chance of Turkey joining the EU than there is of him ever becoming PM. Every single poll shows that born and bred British people are sick to the back teeth of illegal immigrants being treated as if they have some God-given right to stay in this country.
When the Aussies have a boat load of vagrants descending on their coast, they do the right thing, they don't let them in.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28189608
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 21, 2016, 12:01:29 PM
Joking aside, the Australian system has been mentioned as being the foundation on which the UK government could build a proper immigration policy. It's all very well the likes of Jeremy Corbyn saying he doesn't care where workers in the NHS come from because he should care. With comments like that there is more chance of Turkey joining the EU than there is of him ever becoming PM. Every single poll shows that born and bred British people are sick to the back teeth of illegal immigrants being treated as if they have some God-given right to stay in this country.
One of the main planks of the brexit campaign is concern about uncontrolled immigration to the uk by European citizens. And in particular those from Eastern Europe. I get that.
But I am puzzled about why that is being conflated with illegal immigration from outside the EU. This is clearly a very serious and ongoing issue, but I fail to see what it has to do with the EU referendum. It's a completely different problem. Voting for brexit will not stop it.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 21, 2016, 12:04:47 PM
One of the main planks of the brexit campaign is concern about uncontrolled immigration to the uk by European citizens. And in particular those from Eastern Europe. I get that.
But I am puzzled about why that is being conflated with illegal immigration from outside the EU. This is clearly a very serious and ongoing issue, but I fail to see what it has to do with the EU referendum. It's a completely different problem. Voting for brexit will not stop it.
Precisely JP.
It is pleasant to be in agreement with you, at least on this issue.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 21, 2016, 12:11:50 PM
That is very obvious. Cameron and the other 27 European heads of State have already agreed to give Turks access to Europe as long as they take back a few illegals. Nobody is fooled by Cameron, he stated on Question Time the other day that he won't make the decision on Turkey because he will not be PM. He wants to line his pockets now and then b....r off leaving a mess.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 21, 2016, 12:16:01 PM
One of the main planks of the brexit campaign is concern about uncontrolled immigration to the uk by European citizens. And in particular those from Eastern Europe. I get that.
But I am puzzled about why that is being conflated with illegal immigration from outside the EU. This is clearly a very serious and ongoing issue, but I fail to see what it has to do with the EU referendum. It's a completely different problem. Voting for brexit will not stop it.
Why every not? The problem we have at the moment is that the UK cannot chuck out illegals because of EU Human Rights laws. Dump the EU, bring back our own laws tailored to our country and send them packing. When illegals realise that once they are caught in the UK that they will becdeported then that will make it a less attractive destination.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 21, 2016, 12:16:11 PM
That is very obvious. Cameron and the other 27 European heads of State have already agreed to give Turks access to Europe as long as they take back a few illegals. Nobody is fooled by Cameron, he stated on Question Time the other day that he won't make the decision on Turkey because he will not be PM. He wants to line his pockets now and then b....r off leaving a mess.
I completely disagree.
There is no way we would let millions of Turkish people into this country.
Then again Boris Johnson is of Turkish stock.
8)--))
I'd be very happy to put him on a one way trip to Turkey. *&*%£
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 21, 2016, 12:17:06 PM
Why every not? The problem we have at the moment is that the UK cannot chuck out illegals because of EU Human Rights laws. Dump the EU, bring back our own laws tailored to our country and send them packing. When illegals realise that once they are caught in the UK that will make it a less attractive destination.
Again John, what if those countries refuse to take them, what then ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 21, 2016, 12:20:11 PM
There is no way we would let millions of Turkish people into this country.
I completely agree, it will not happen because the British people won't stand for it. But apathy and maintaining the status quo just isn't an option. Those who think that we should remain in the EU and reform it from within are seriously deluded. Have they not seen what happened to Cameron last time he sought a few EU crumbs?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 21, 2016, 12:25:16 PM
Why every not? The problem we have at the moment is that the UK cannot chuck out illegals because of EU Human Rights laws. Dump the EU, bring back our own laws tailored to our country and send them packing. When illegals realise that once they are caught in the UK that they will becdeported then that will make it a less attractive destination.
This is where you need to understand the difference between the ECJ - which is an EC institution and is responsible for applying EU law. And the ECHR to which we are a signatory but which is not an EU institution.
If you think that leaving the EU will resolve the illegal immigration problems then you are going to be disappointed.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 21, 2016, 12:39:49 PM
My principle reason for wishing to remain is that I think that a vote to leave will cause unprecedented economic crisis for years to come. Leave campaigners tell me "never mind, it's only the economy, it'll be fine" but I'm sorry - the economy drives pretty much everything else, and "don't worry, it'll be fine" doesn't really inspire much confidence. So I'm not prepared to risk the country's economic health (and knock-on effect a meltdown would have on every single person on this island's standard of living) on some wishful thinking. Stay in the EU, push for reform, that's what I vote for. Now your turn to denigrate me!
I fear the EU won't survive that long if the UK leaves. You might not be aware but I have seen it for myself, most European countries are struggling at the moment. Greece is bust and Portugal isn't far behind. Unprecedented unemployment especially among young people has become the norm. Europe is struggling to cope with its debts, if we remain we will be asked to pay more and more into the EU coffers as seven new States are brought on board. These States are all former Soviet bloc States with little to offer. They will have to be susidized for decades with us paying a large part of it. If the UK leaves, the EU will face a bigger crisis than we will. The EU needs us more than we need them.
Without the burdens imposed by the EU the UK will be free of European tariffs and free to make our own deals with the rest of the world. Short term uncertainty is a small price to pay for long term prosperity as an independent free trading nation?
The way I see it, we have everything to gain by getting out now before it is too late!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 21, 2016, 12:45:25 PM
This is where you need to understand the difference between the ECJ - which is an EC institution and is responsible for applying EU law. And the ECHR to which we are a signatory but which is not an EU institution.
If you think that leaving the EU will resolve the illegal immigration problems then you are going to be disappointed.
I don't agree.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 21, 2016, 01:21:39 PM
I have yet to see anything positive from the remain campaign, all they have done is run down our country and make out we are wholly dependent on a charitable EU. A load of bollocks and scaremongering at its best.
Stephen, you posted that we have a moral responsibility to help poorer European countries. Don't we do that already without them needing to join the EU?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 21, 2016, 01:47:21 PM
I have yet to see anything positive from the remain campaign, all they have done is run down our country and make out we are wholly dependent on a charitable EU. A load of bollocks and scaremongering at its best.
Stephen, you posted that we have a moral responsibility to help poorer European countries. Don't we do that already without them needing to join the EU?
I think you may be misreading the sentiment, Angelo. The U.K. Is more than capable of fighting our corner in the EU in trade and finance, and punching way above our weight in diplomatic and foreign affairs. According to certain measures We are the worlds fifth largest economy. We are not part of schengen and have control of our borders. We have retained sterling. We have various opt outs and vetoes. So we have all the advantages of eu membership without some of the disadvantages.
So far from escaping the yoke of the EU (as those advocating brexit are saying) remaining would be a very positive vote to retain and develop our place at the top table of a vibrant trading block of some 475m please. The EU certainly has problems, but they will only be resolved from within. Cutting ourselves off would be, in my view, an act of madness.
for those concerned about immigration, remember that immigrants only gravitate to successful economies. And this county has been founded on immigration.
There is a very easy way to solve the immigration "problem". Vote LEAVE, crash the economy and nobody will want to come here. Problem solved. Good luck.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 21, 2016, 02:23:10 PM
I have yet to see anything positive from the remain campaign, all they have done is run down our country and make out we are wholly dependent on a charitable EU. A load of bollocks and scaremongering at its best.
Stephen, you posted that we have a moral responsibility to help poorer European countries. Don't we do that already without them needing to join the EU?
I have some idea of how much the UK spends of Foreign Aid Angelo, but before I give the figures, do you think the UK, not including charities, spends more on the EU or Foreign Aid ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 21, 2016, 02:24:27 PM
I think you may be misreading the sentiment, Angelo. The U.K. Is more than capable of fighting our corner in the EU in trade and finance, and punching way above our weight in diplomatic and foreign affairs. According to certain measures We are the worlds fifth largest economy. We are not part of schengen and have control of our borders. We have retained sterling. We have various opt outs and vetoes. So we have all the advantages of eu membership without some of the disadvantages.
So far from escaping the yoke of the EU (as those advocating brexit are saying) remaining would be a very positive vote to retain and develop our place at the top table of a vibrant trading block of some 475m please. The EU certainly has problems, but they will only be resolved from within. Cutting ourselves off would be, in my view, an act of madness.
for those concerned about immigration, remember that immigrants only gravitate to successful economies. And this county has been founded on immigration.
There is a very easy way to solve the immigration "problem". Vote LEAVE, crash the economy and nobody will want to come here. Problem solved. Good luck.
Excellent post JP. 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 21, 2016, 03:13:00 PM
I think you may be misreading the sentiment, Angelo. The U.K. Is more than capable of fighting our corner in the EU in trade and finance, and punching way above our weight in diplomatic and foreign affairs. According to certain measures We are the worlds fifth largest economy. We are not part of schengen and have control of our borders. We have retained sterling. We have various opt outs and vetoes. So we have all the advantages of eu membership without some of the disadvantages.
So far from escaping the yoke of the EU (as those advocating brexit are saying) remaining would be a very positive vote to retain and develop our place at the top table of a vibrant trading block of some 475m please. The EU certainly has problems, but they will only be resolved from within. Cutting ourselves off would be, in my view, an act of madness.
for those concerned about immigration, remember that immigrants only gravitate to successful economies. And this county has been founded on immigration.
There is a very easy way to solve the immigration "problem". Vote LEAVE, crash the economy and nobody will want to come here. Problem solved. Good luck.
You managed to prove my point perfectly, vote leave will not crash our economy, just ask Cameron because he stated as much.
As far as Schengen is concerned it might as well not exist. You claim we have control of our borders and I claim the contrary. We cannot send illegal immigrant home so that sort of decides that argument. We don't have control of our borders.
The UK cannot win any open vote in the EU as the eastern Europe bloc will always win, have you learned nothing from the Eurovision Song Contest? The UK has limited veto powers but that isn't set in stone.
If you want a United States of Europe, a federal one State EU, a European Army and our country overrun by foreigners then you're welcome to it.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 21, 2016, 03:18:21 PM
I have some idea of how much the UK spends of Foreign Aid Angelo, but before I give the figures, do you think the UK, not including charities, spends more on the EU or Foreign Aid ?
Maybe you hadn't realised it but the money we squander on the EU (the money we don't get back) is foreign aid.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 21, 2016, 03:19:55 PM
You managed to prove my point perfectly, vote leave will not crash our economy, just ask Cameron because he stated as much.
As far as Schengen is concerned it might as well not exist. You claim we have control of our borders and I claim the contrary. We cannot send illegal immigrant home so that sort of decides that argument. We don't have control of our borders.
The UK cannot win any open vote in the EU as the eastern Europe bloc will always win, have you learned nothing from the Eurovision Song Contest? The UK has limited veto powers but that isn't set in stone.
If you want a United States of Europe, a federal one State EU, a European Army and our country overrun by foreigners then you're welcome to it.
If we have no control of our borders, then why have border guards at all ?
By the way, how has the United States of America coping with a United Army and is it overrun with foreigners (and bare in mind it has bigger borders than us) ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 21, 2016, 03:24:13 PM
Maybe you hadn't realised it but the money we squander on the EU (the money we don't get back) is foreign aid.
Define Foreign Aid, and by the way, what does the money given to the EU get used for ?
By the way, we do spend more on Aid, than with the EU.
For reference purposes............
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35226478
and before you say anything, I already know that some Aid money is wasted and could be more wisely allocated, and not to Swiss Bank Accounts of certain recipients of finance.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: G-Unit on June 21, 2016, 04:47:22 PM
I don't know if it will happen in my lifetime, but I fully expect a United States of Europe to emerge eventually. Business needs it and what business needs politicians enable.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 21, 2016, 04:51:30 PM
I don't know if it will happen in my lifetime, but I fully expect a United States of Europe to emerge eventually. Business needs it and what business needs politicians enable.
I think it might - eventually. A few issues like language to solve first.
And successful business is vital to any economy. In my view, we should not take a step to isolate ourselves from Europe.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 21, 2016, 06:26:32 PM
If we have no control of our borders, then why have border guards at all ?
By the way, how has the United States of America coping with a United Army and is it overrun with foreigners (and bare in mind it has bigger borders than us) ?
The UK border controls mostly exist at major international ports and airports. Staff from the Borders Agency recently complained that they are undermanned and underfunded. This will have to change, gone are the days when complacency is acceptable.
Isn't that why The Donald wants to build a wall on the border between Arizona, Mexico, Texas and Mexico?
I don't know if it will happen in my lifetime, but I fully expect a United States of Europe to emerge eventually. Business needs it and what business needs politicians enable.
Can't see it, history has told us that the one size fits all ethos doesn't work in Europe. More likely to go the other way and a return to seperate national identities. At least that is the view of many Spaniards I have spoken to. I wonder what Eleanor has found in northern France?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 21, 2016, 06:47:02 PM
The UK border controls mostly exist at major international ports and airports. Staff from the Borders Agency recently complained that they are undermanned and underfunded. This will have to change, gone are the days when complacency is acceptable.
Isn't that why The Donald wants to build a wall on the border between Arizona, Mexico, Texas and Mexico?
The UK border controls mostly exist at major international ports and airports. Staff from the Borders Agency recently complained that they are undermanned and underfunded. This will have to change, gone are the days when complacency is acceptable.
Isn't that why The Donald wants to build a wall on the border between Arizona, Mexico, Texas and Mexico?
You managed to prove my point perfectly, vote leave will not crash our economy, just ask Cameron because he stated as much.
As far as Schengen is concerned it might as well not exist. You claim we have control of our borders and I claim the contrary. We cannot send illegal immigrant home so that sort of decides that argument. We don't have control of our borders.
The UK cannot win any open vote in the EU as the eastern Europe bloc will always win, have you learned nothing from the Eurovision Song Contest? The UK has limited veto powers but that isn't set in stone.
If you want a United States of Europe, a federal one State EU, a European Army and our country overrun by foreigners then you're welcome to it.
Voting out will cause a significant financial shock and the uncertainty will mean it'll last for years. There may be many reasons for voting out but they will come at a significant financial cost.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: G-Unit on June 21, 2016, 09:08:25 PM
Voting out will cause a significant financial shock and the uncertainty will mean it'll last for years. There may be many reasons for voting out but they will come at a significant financial cost.
Absolute ballcocks!!!... I see you've got your opaque crystal ball out again!!!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 21, 2016, 09:55:05 PM
European Council president (I never voted for 'im) Donald Tusk.......
'Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also Western political civilisation in its entirety'.
Boris has said that if the vote is to leave the EU and Britain goes into recession, then he will apologise.
That will make everything alright.
8(0(*
Well isn't that fine and dandy of him.
What a jolly good chap he is.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 22, 2016, 11:01:34 AM
English fisherman interviewed on Sky News earlier saying that the EU project is nothing more than an attempt to recreate the old USSR. I tend to agree.
Germany has old scores to settle with Russia and a political and military unification of Europe can only lead to trouble as already seen with the Ukraine crisis.
I sincerely hope the people who really count speak with one voice tomorrow and destroy this EU project once and for all. Then it will truly be Independence Day!!
The irony is not lost on Cameron however. If he loses he will be remembered for giving Britain back hope and independence. If he wins he ultimately loses as his time in No 10 is doomed and he will be remembered as a Judas.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2016, 11:14:37 AM
English fisherman interviewed on Sky News earlier saying that the EU project is nothing more than an attempt to recreate the old USSR. I tend to agree.
Germany has old scores to settle with Russia and a political and military unification of Europe can only lead to trouble as already seen with the Ukraine crisis.
I sincerely hope the people who really count speak with one voice tomorrow and destroy this EU project once and for all. Then it will truly be Independence Day!!
The irony is not lost on Cameron however. If he loses he will be remembered for giving Britain back hope and independence. If he wins he ultimately loses as his time in No 10 is doomed and he will be remembered as a Judas.
In what way do you think people are losing their British identity ?
According to the BBC, the result will be known by approx. 7.30 am Friday morning.
I saw the two fishermen.
Remember for years, most countries have been over fishing. A very short sighted approach.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 22, 2016, 11:21:47 AM
Do you remember the Spanish super trawlers sucking up everything around the British coast?
I happen to live in a fishing town, where our fisherman livelihoods are constrained by EU quotas, while the spanish trawlers gobble everything up indescriminately.
Put Britain first.
Vote Leave.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2016, 11:33:25 AM
I happen to live in a fishing town, where our fisherman livelihoods are constrained by EU quotas, while the spanish trawlers gobble everything up indescriminately.
Put Britain first.
Vote Leave.
I presume you can prove Spanish trawlers are doing this now ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: G-Unit on June 22, 2016, 12:09:43 PM
In what way do you think people are losing their British identity ?
According to the BBC, the result will be known by approx. 7.30 am Friday morning.
I saw the two fishermen.
Remember for years, most countries have been over fishing. A very short sighted approach.
As someone who remembers being on a bus or train, in a shop, a doctor's waiting room or just a park and hearing only English being spoken the different languages I hear now can be disconcerting. Sometimes communication is difficult.
On the other hand my grandchildren are used to mixing with people from many different backgrounds and think nothing of it.
The first situation fostered racism and zenophobia and encouraged nationalism and patriotism. The second situation discourages all of the above. Younger people are much more tolerant and informed about those from other countries and cultures.
The question is whether national identity necessarily involves the population being homogeneous. Some countries have managed it, but is that because all of their populace are relatively recent immigrants?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2016, 12:34:18 PM
I see that Michael Gove has labelled some Economists Nazis, merely because they question Brexit's 'forecasts'.
That is truly deplorable but no more than I would expect from him or his kindred.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 22, 2016, 12:35:38 PM
As someone who remembers being on a bus or train, in a shop, a doctor's waiting room or just a park and hearing only English being spoken the different languages I hear now can be disconcerting. Sometimes communication is difficult.
On the other hand my grandchildren are used to mixing with people from many different backgrounds and think nothing of it.
The first situation fostered racism and zenophobia and encouraged nationalism and patriotism. The second situation discourages all of the above. Younger people are much more tolerant and informed about those from other countries and cultures.
The question is whether national identity necessarily involves the population being homogeneous. Some countries have managed it, but is that because all of their populace are relatively recent immigrants?
You raise some interesting and thoughtful points. And I can understand that it may be confusing, but we are all just people. I was fortunate to have brought up with several languages, and work internationally so I see the mix of languages spoken, especially in London, fascinating.
And I feel British first and European second. There is no doubt that we are a sovereign nation, under the British constitution and governed by the British Parliament and laws. In those areas where EU law has overridden English law it is only with the consent of parliament. Our relationship with the EU is as one of the three senior members of the EU.
As a county we have always had immigration - Angles, Saxons, Romans, Normans, Africans, Chinese, Jews, Arabs, Indians, Italians etc etc. It's a big melting pot. And Immigrants who stay have become British.
You are right that the young are more relaxed about differences, and are more global in outlook, and more likely to vote remain, while the old are more likely to vote leave. The young are the future so maybe the older generation should consider their wishes and their future.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2016, 12:43:02 PM
You raise some interesting and thoughtful points. And I can understand that it may be confusing, but we are all just people. I was fortunate to have brought up with several languages, and work internationally so I see the mix of languages spoken, especially in London, fascinating.
And I feel British first and European second. There is no doubt that we are a sovereign nation, under the British constitution and governed by the British Parliament and laws. In those areas where EU law has overridden English law it is only with the consent of parliament. Our relationship with the EU is as one of the three senior members of the EU.
As a county we have always had immigration - Angles, Saxons, Romans, Normans, Africans, Chinese, Jews, Arabs, Indians, Italians etc etc. It's a big melting pot. And Immigrants who stay have become British.
You are right that the young are more relaxed about differences, and are more global in outlook, and more likely to vote remain, while the old are more likely to vote leave. The young are the future so maybe the older generation should consider their wishes and their future.
Having lived in London for several years, I too have seen the mixing of cultures, and as you say JP, younger people don't have the hangup's older people sometimes have.
Whether it is people being scared of change and/or the fear of the unknown, I do not know.
As I have already said on this thread, I do encounter regularly people from the EU in my work, and speaking personally I do enjoy conversing with them , and seeing how much we have in common.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 22, 2016, 01:19:35 PM
One of the women in the TV debate lied last night in saying all 28 countries are seeking closer Union.
In fact only 19 of those countries, at the moment could that be applied to, as they use the Euro currency.
I think there is a lot of exaggeration going on Stephen. What I would like to know however is what does Cameron know that the rest of us don't since he is so desperate to remain?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2016, 02:38:55 PM
Angela Merkel the most powerful person in the EU welcomed asylum seekers with open arms which most realised was a stupid thing to do...
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 22, 2016, 02:52:31 PM
He earns his salary as an expert in EU and constitutional law. If we left the EU he would be in huge demand.
Having listened to his talk, where is he wrong and why?
My experience of academics is that their grasp of the real world is limited. So many were wrong on the Euro and will be wrong on #BrExit. Vested interest is a powerful motivator.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 22, 2016, 05:27:27 PM
My experience of academics is that their grasp of the real world is limited. So many were wrong on the Euro and will be wrong on #BrExit. Vested interest is a powerful motivator.
People should make up their own minds based on their own experience of the EU and not be influence by soothsayers and crystal ball gazers.
We know that a shed load of money is wasted every day as a result of our continued membership of this corrupt and wasteful institution. Our entire way of life is being influenced by it and for the worse. After #BrExit there should be a general election in order to sweep the boards clean.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: misty on June 22, 2016, 05:46:17 PM
We've come such a long way since the 1970's. Don't destroy it all with a Brexit vote tomorrow.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 22, 2016, 05:53:46 PM
Who have come a long way since the 70's?
Where have they come from exactly & how is it that Brexit will destroy them?
You've lost me.
Vote Leave, it's easier to understand.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 22, 2016, 05:54:36 PM
Its fascinating that instead of pointing out where Michael Dougan's excellent and reasoned analysis of the EU constitutional and legal position, all that you can manage is:
"My experience of academics is that their grasp of the real world is limited"
"He earns his salary because of the EU. He has thus a vested interest in its survival"
In other words "i don't like / understand what he is saying, so I'll take the easy way out and sneer that he is "an expert" or "an academic".
If you are going to make a case for Leave, then at least do so on the basis of facts and argument - not ill informed opinion. This decision is too bl**dy important for our children.
So where is he wrong on the EU?
Just a couple of points will do.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 22, 2016, 05:58:14 PM
Where have they come from exactly & how is it that Brexit will destroy them?
You've lost me.
Vote Leave, it's easier to understand.
Of course it is, Spam. And you can listen to Johnson, Gove and Farage slogan "take back control, vote leave".
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alfie on June 22, 2016, 06:41:25 PM
Brexiteers seem to me largely motivated by a fear of increasing numbers of immigrants coming to these shores, but if they think that will be the case post-Brexit they are IMO living in cloud-cuckoo land. Consider this (written by Daniel Finkelstein, so ripe for ridicule by the Leavers, but never mind...)
"By leaving the European single market, Britain makes itself a less attractive place for big businesses to invest. This is hard to dispute, and in any case they are overwhelmingly telling us themselves. It will also make it harder for us to trade.
So unless we act, we will be poorer. The Leave economic argument is that by freeing ourselves from the EU we will be able to act. The Remainiacs aren’t getting this, they argue. We won’t just be sitting here, suffering. We will be taking back control.
Now think what this might mean in practice. To be a success outside the single market, to be attractive to businesses and to investment, we would need to be a European offshore low-cost competitive mecca for companies.
We would have to offset the increased cost of doing business here that leaving brings (in the form of barriers, both tariff and non-tariff, to European trade) by cutting our own costs even more sharply.
We would need to have lower taxes on foreign rich people than the Continent, pay lower wages to unskilled people than elsewhere in Europe and cut public spending further to keep taxes down. We would need to make old people work longer. Oh, and we would need a huge influx of immigrants, both skilled and unskilled, to ensure that we had a very competitive workforce".
Now tell me why he is wrong.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 22, 2016, 07:10:38 PM
Its fascinating that instead of pointing out where Michael Dougan's excellent and reasoned analysis of the EU constitutional and legal position, all that you can manage is:
"My experience of academics is that their grasp of the real world is limited"
"He earns his salary because of the EU. He has thus a vested interest in its survival"
In other words "i don't like / understand what he is saying, so I'll take the easy way out and sneer that he is "an expert" or "an academic".
If you are going to make a case for Leave, then at least do so on the basis of facts and argument - not ill informed opinion. This decision is too bl**dy important for our children.
So where is he wrong on the EU?
Just a couple of points will do.
Oh OK then I will listen to his speel.
He claims the UK is a major player with the EU and has great influence. As suspected, he has over egged it to suit his own agenda. Every member has the same voting right so a consensus of eastern bloc entities can simply vote to suit their own particular needs. Certainly the big three as he refers to them can veto any vote but that sort of defeats the whole purpose of it supposedly being a democracy in the first place. Do we have enormous influence? No, not necessarily, we just give away more than just about anyone else for the privilege. As to being a major player within the EU, well, a major net contributor yes.
He goes on to introduce the Balance of Competencies EU review which was undertaken by the UK government between 2012 and 2014 which according to the Foreign Secretary hardly represented a glowing report card.
Welcoming the conclusion of the review, the Foreign Secretary, Phillip Hammond, said:
This two-year review to examine the impact of EU membership on the UK is unprecedented in its size and scale. Many themes that have emerged chime with priorities that the UK and European partners have pressed the Commission to pursue. In particular, they underline the need for the EU to focus on those areas where it genuinely adds value, alongside pursuing an ambitious reform agenda for the benefit of all 28 Member States. There are many areas where action can and should be taken in Member States rather than at the EU level.
The review provides a wealth of material that anyone interested in reform can draw upon and the 32 reports provide evidence about every area of EU activity, allowing people to judge for themselves how the current arrangements are working. These reports provide further evidence of the need for a change in Britain’s relationship with the EU.
According to Dougan every major stakeholder saw no problem with the EU, the emphasis being on the word major. Unsurprising really given their own vested interests. Undoubtedly the majority of those major stakeholders have their corporate headquarters in London and see themselves as the centre of the universe.
Sorry JP, cannot watch any more of that video as it sounds like a #remain propaganda broadcast. 6&%5%
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2016, 07:26:13 PM
Brexiteers seem to me largely motivated by a fear of increasing numbers of immigrants coming to these shores, but if they think that will be the case post-Brexit they are IMO living in cloud-cuckoo land. Consider this (written by Daniel Finkelstein, so ripe for ridicule by the Leavers, but never mind...)
"By leaving the European single market, Britain makes itself a less attractive place for big businesses to invest. This is hard to dispute, and in any case they are overwhelmingly telling us themselves. It will also make it harder for us to trade.
So unless we act, we will be poorer. The Leave economic argument is that by freeing ourselves from the EU we will be able to act. The Remainiacs aren’t getting this, they argue. We won’t just be sitting here, suffering. We will be taking back control.
Now think what this might mean in practice. To be a success outside the single market, to be attractive to businesses and to investment, we would need to be a European offshore low-cost competitive mecca for companies.
We would have to offset the increased cost of doing business here that leaving brings (in the form of barriers, both tariff and non-tariff, to European trade) by cutting our own costs even more sharply.
We would need to have lower taxes on foreign rich people than the Continent, pay lower wages to unskilled people than elsewhere in Europe and cut public spending further to keep taxes down. We would need to make old people work longer. Oh, and we would need a huge influx of immigrants, both skilled and unskilled, to ensure that we had a very competitive workforce".
Now tell me why he is wrong.
(written by Daniel Finkelstein, so ripe for ridicule by the Leavers, but never mind...)
Indeed he is.
A guy who belives that a man in the sky wants little boys to have their genitals mutilated.
It's very easy to disregard anything that he say's on that basis alone.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 22, 2016, 07:46:20 PM
Brexiteers seem to me largely motivated by a fear of increasing numbers of immigrants coming to these shores, but if they think that will be the case post-Brexit they are IMO living in cloud-cuckoo land. Consider this (written by Daniel Finkelstein, so ripe for ridicule by the Leavers, but never mind...)
So your policy would be to let them all in. How about the migrant who walked through the Channel Tunnel?
By leaving the European single market, Britain makes itself a less attractive place for big businesses to invest. This is hard to dispute, and in any case they are overwhelmingly telling us themselves. It will also make it harder for us to trade.
That is untrue. By leaving the EU the UK will open itself up to world markets previously unattractive because of artificial EU customs tariffs. Even Cameron has admitted that the UK is very capable of standing alone in the big world.
We don't need the EU, we have never needed the EU, all it ever was was an experiment in economic cooperation which has become both too long in the tooth and surpassed its sell-by date. It is a stepping stone to a federal Europe, closer political allegiances and a United States of Europe. A socialist Europe by any means led by the remnants of the old East German Communist populous.
Frankly, I hope enough people have the guts to stand up for what they believe in tomorrow because they will never get another opportunity like it for a very long time.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2016, 08:07:01 PM
That is untrue. By leaving the EU the UK will open itself up to world markets previously unattractive because of artificial EU customs tariffs. Even Cameron has admitted that the UK is very capable of standing alone in the big world.
We don't need the EU, we have never needed the EU, all it ever was was an experiment in economic cooperation which has become both too long in the tooth and surpassed its sell-by date. It is a stepping stone to a federal Europe, closer political allegiances and a United States of Europe. A socialist Europe by any means led by the remnants of the old East German Communist populous.
Frankly, I hope enough people have the guts to stand up for what they believe in tomorrow because they will never get another opportunity like it for a very long time.
We have the 5 th largest economy in the world.
Why jeopardize that with meaningless and unsubstantiated claims of life in airy fairy land ?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 22, 2016, 08:30:56 PM
The Day Today. Finance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0uE1qi2A68
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9_fBDDTIuI
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alfie on June 22, 2016, 08:39:17 PM
That is untrue. By leaving the EU the UK will open itself up to world markets previously unattractive because of artificial EU customs tariffs. Even Cameron has admitted that the UK is very capable of standing alone in the big world.
We don't need the EU, we have never needed the EU, all it ever was was an experiment in economic cooperation which has become both too long in the tooth and surpassed its sell-by date. It is a stepping stone to a federal Europe, closer political allegiances and a United States of Europe. A socialist Europe by any means led by the remnants of the old East German Communist populous.
Frankly, I hope enough people have the guts to stand up for what they believe in tomorrow because they will never get another opportunity like it for a very long time.
If it's such a wonderful opportunty for big business why are so many big businesses based here opposed to Brexit?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 22, 2016, 08:39:54 PM
If it's such a wonderful opportunty for big business why are so many big businesses based here opposed to Brexit?
Just like so many favour it. IT SUITS THEM!
Think of all that lovely wine, grapes and strawberries not to mention the Renaults, Seats and Mercs. All at the price we want to pay and not at the price they can get away fleecing us under EU rules. 8(*(
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alfie on June 22, 2016, 08:44:15 PM
What I am saying is that Brexit is viewed as some magic wand to take us back to pre-Windrush 1950s Britain and it just ain't going to happen. Immigration will continue in the hundreds of thousands for years to come, I really can't see that changing anytime soon.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alfie on June 22, 2016, 08:45:57 PM
That doesn't make sense. You tell us the Brexit will be brilliant for business as it will open up trade outside the EU. That being the case then ALL businesses would be in favour of Brexit but very clearly that is not the case. WHY NOT?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 22, 2016, 08:48:28 PM
That doesn't make sense. You tell us the Brexit will be brilliant for business as it will open up trade outside the EU. That being the case then ALL businesses would be in favour of Brexit but very clearly that is not the case. WHY NOT?
Could it be that most big charities and many big businesses get lucrative handouts from the EU? £4%4% Without the EU gravy train they would be stuffed!
Vested interest dear Alf... Vested interest!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2016, 08:56:04 PM
Could it be that most big charities and many big businesses get lucrative handouts from the EU? £4%4% Without the EU gravy train they would be stuffed!
Vested interest dear Alf... Vested interest!
That still doesn't make sense, if the opportunities presented to businesses are really as great as you say they are. Can you give me some examples of big businesses getting handouts from the EU and an idea of the size of these handouts? And of what you say is true then surely all these businesses will leave Britain in droves to go and set up in the EU where the handouts are so huge?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alfie on June 22, 2016, 09:50:12 PM
Could it be that most big charities and many big businesses get lucrative handouts from the EU? £4%4% Without the EU gravy train they would be stuffed!
Vested interest dear Alf... Vested interest!
BTW, you now appear to be agreeing with Daniel Finkelstein, having earlier said he was wrong when he said
By leaving the European single market, Britain makes itself a less attractive place for big businesses to invest. This is hard to dispute, and in any case they are overwhelmingly telling us themselves. It will also make it harder for us to trade.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2016, 12:41:31 AM
I watched The Paxman c4 debate tonight that was filled with politicans old and new, business leaders, media, and people from the general population
Its a shame these kind of debates did not happen weeks and weeks ago and on an intense ongoing basis for all the issues to be thrashed out, I heard good arguments from both sides, and each side is a kaleidoscope of members, some surprising
No wonder at least a fifth of the population is undecided as there are so many intelligent informed and charismatic persons who are speaking for both sides
it truly is a gamble based on gut instinct because if youre honest no one can predict a single thing here
Oh well, roll on friday night for results
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Admin on June 23, 2016, 12:45:57 AM
Jean-Claude Juncker has effectively let the cat out of the bag last night when he demolished any possible hopes of further negotiatons with the EU as previously promised by PM David Cameron.
EU referendum: Juncker in 'out is out' warning to UK
The UK will not be able to return to the negotiating table if it votes to leave the European Union, one of the EU's top officials has said. Speaking on the eve of the referendum, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said the outcome would be final and "out is out". And the UK would not get a better deal than the one already negotiated by Prime Minister David Cameron.
Leave supporter Boris Johnson called Mr Juncker an "unelected tin-pot figure". The former mayor of London said the remarks showed Mr Cameron's belief that the UK could achieve further reform to immigration rules from within the EU were a "sham, snare and a delusion".
I watched The Paxman c4 debate tonight that was filled with politicans old and new, business leaders, media, and people from the general population
Its a shame these kind of debates did not happen weeks and weeks ago and on an intense ongoing basis for all the issues to be thrashed out, I heard good arguments from both sides, and each side is a kaleidoscope of members, some surprising
No wonder at least a fifth of the population is undecided as there are so many intelligent informed and charismatic persons who are speaking for both sides
it truly is a gamble based on gut instinct because if youre honest no one can predict a single thing here
Oh well, roll on friday night for results
I would say on balance that leaving the EU will guarantee a brighter future for all of us who take pride in our country. Economics, trade and migration are the essential issues.
Not sending millions of pounds to Brussels each and every week can only be good for our own economy.
Europe sells much more to us than we do to them. It is in their interest to keep us sweet, not the other way around. Leaving the EU will open up tariff-free trading possibilities with the rest of the world, something which the other 27 EU States will be furious about.
Taking back control of our immigration and deciding who we will allow to come and stay in the UK can only be good news.
Have I missed anything?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2016, 12:56:49 AM
Well that goes without saying, if the uk leave they wouldnt have negotiating deals would they?, blame cameron for allowng the possibility
The thing the leave campaign dont think about much it seems is what impact the uk leaving might have on the eu and how it might trickle down to affect the uk, as i said before, not enough time has been spent on debating, ffs the yanks have over a year to campaign for a new president which will last for a few years, uks future is given, what? A few tv debates?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Admin on June 23, 2016, 01:04:09 AM
Well that goes without saying, if the uk leave they wouldnt have negotiating deals would they?, blame cameron for allowng the possibility
The thing the leave campaign dont think about much it seems is what impact the uk leaving might have on the eu and how it might trickle down to affect the uk, as i said before, not enough time has been spent on debating, ffs the yanks have over a year to campaign for a new president which will last for a few years, uks future is given, what? A few tv debates?
These deals we keep hearing about are with mickey mouse countries with tiny economies. The EU does not have any deal with the likes of China or the USA. Freed from the EU, the UK can negotiate its own deal with these countries and get a better deal into the bargain.
Something which has been conveniently pushed to the side by remain campaigners however is the question as to whether the EU can survive a Brexit? Many believe it will not as other countries follow our lead and get out.
The London based elite are destroying the UK slowly but surely, everything has until now been on their terms. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity for people from all over the UK to TAKE BACK CONTROL. Let's hope they take it!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2016, 01:07:26 AM
I would say on balance that leaving the EU will guarantee a brighter future for all of us who take pride in our country. Economics, trade and migration are the essential issues.
Not sending millions of pounds to Brussels each and every week can only be good for our own economy.
Europe sells much more to us than we do to them. It is in their interest to keep us sweet, not the other way around. Leaving the EU will open up tariff-free trading possibilities with the rest of the world, something which the other 27 EU States will be furious about.
Taking back control of our immigration and deciding who we will allow to come and stay in the UK can only be good news.
Have I missed anything?
But all those arguments can be refuted and have been and we havent been given enough time to hear them all and check them out and make an informed decision, its really sad, and people will end up voting for who they like!! I cant do that as I like so many of them on both sides so I wont be voting probably BUT if I do it will be remain as the world is unstable enough and its the wrong time, cameron was pushed into it by ukip gaining support, that should tell u something...
On the other hand what the eu have done to countries like greece spain and portugal is disgusting, maybe they should get out too of the euro, but we will all be europeans always whatever happens, no one can take that away from us
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2016, 01:15:33 AM
The London based elite are destroying the UK slowly but surely, everything has until now been on their terms. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity for people from all over the UK to TAKE BACK CONTROL. Let's hope they take it!
But thats cameron and osborne destroying the country as we know it not immigrants
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2016, 07:38:33 AM
I would say on balance that leaving the EU will guarantee a brighter future for all of us who take pride in our country. Economics, trade and migration are the essential issues.
Not sending millions of pounds to Brussels each and every week can only be good for our own economy.
Europe sells much more to us than we do to them. It is in their interest to keep us sweet, not the other way around. Leaving the EU will open up tariff-free trading possibilities with the rest of the world, something which the other 27 EU States will be furious about.
Taking back control of our immigration and deciding who we will allow to come and stay in the UK can only be good news.
Have I missed anything?
1. We spend more on Foreign Aid, than the net payments to the EU after rebates.
2. When it comes to how many goods are sold back and forth, have you forgotten about the Finance Industry, which more than matches anything we pay to the EU.
3. Controlling immigration. Don't forget as much comes from outside the EU, including Commonwealth Countries. So what plans does Brexit have for that ?
4. We have the 5 th best Economy in the world, INSIDE THE EU, why risk that for hot air from Brexit ???
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 23, 2016, 08:03:44 AM
As i have said before....even if there is a majority today I doubt we will leave.....i hope i am wrong
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alfie on June 23, 2016, 08:24:28 AM
These deals we keep hearing about are with mickey mouse countries with tiny economies. The EU does not have any deal with the likes of China or the USA. Freed from the EU, the UK can negotiate its own deal with these countries and get a better deal into the bargain.
Something which has been conveniently pushed to the side by remain campaigners however is the question as to whether the EU can survive a Brexit? Many believe it will not as other countries follow our lead and get out.
The London based elite are destroying the UK slowly but surely, everything has until now been on their terms. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity for people from all over the UK to TAKE BACK CONTROL. Let's hope they take it!
How would it be good for Europe if the EU were destroyed?
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 23, 2016, 08:50:08 AM
1. We spend more on Foreign Aid, than the net payments to the EU after rebates.
2. When it comes to how many goods are sold back and forth, have you forgotten about the Finance Industry, which more than matches anything we pay to the EU.
3. Controlling immigration. Don't forget as much comes from outside the EU, including Commonwealth Countries. So what plans does Brexit have for that ?
4. We have the 5 th best Economy in the world, INSIDE THE EU, why risk that for hot air from Brexit ???
You are quite correct Stephen. The cost to us of eu membership is small change. Out budget is around £777bn.
The brexit campaign seems to founded on the premise that we are entirely controlled by our EU masters, with no power or influence on the direction of travel.
One area which has not helped, however, is that UKIP have the largest representation - so being represented by an anti EU party is pretty toxic and destructive.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2016, 09:16:37 AM
You are quite correct Stephen. The cost to us of eu membership is small change. Out budget is around £777bn.
The brexit campaign seems to founded on the premise that we are entirely controlled by our EU masters, with no power or influence on the direction of travel.
One area which has not helped, however, is that UKIP have the largest representation - so being represented by an anti EU party is pretty toxic and destructive.
I have been surprised why the 'Stay In' Campaign did not point out to the voters precisely that. They have allowed in one sense, the Brexit campaign to almost dictate terms with their slogans, no matter how irrational they are.
As to Farage and his fellow UKIP members, I find their hypocrisy breathtaking, when they complain about money wasted in the EU, yet are quite happy to draw the salary and expenses which come with sitting in the EU Parliament and then do nothing to help the UK.
I really don't know which way the vote will go today, but the repercussions from this referendum will persist for some time.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Admin on June 23, 2016, 09:48:18 AM
You are quite correct Stephen. The cost to us of eu membership is small change. Out budget is around £777bn.
The brexit campaign seems to founded on the premise that we are entirely controlled by our EU masters, with no power or influence on the direction of travel.
One area which has not helped, however, is that UKIP have the largest representation - so being represented by an anti EU party is pretty toxic and destructive.
Aren't we? The EU dictates just about every aspect of our lives these days and denying it is to bury ones head in the sand.
Does anyone want closer political unity, a European Army and 90 million more members all with free access to our free NHS? The UK is the envy of Europe with our social security system, free medical services and our liberal freedom of speech laws. Allow unfettered access and we end up just like the rest of them.
Those that promote the status quo are deluding themselves that staying in Europe is somehow a good thing. I suspect most companies who do so trade directly with Europe and represent that tiny 9% of our GDP. The vast majority of businesses in the UK however have very little or no exposure to Europe but nevertheless are hindered by EU rules.
One thing is for sure though and that is that Parliament will never be the same again and that can only be a good thing.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2016, 09:55:24 AM
Let's have some examples of where it has made our lives worse.
A wild exaggeration, and betrays a lack of understanding of how it works in practice.
Law: we are a sovereign nation and all of our laws, including those influenced by the EU, must be passed by parliament. The vast majority of EU laws relate to the operation of the single market.
On the question of democracy - the EU is a democratic organisation where we have approximately 10% of the MEPs. Most things are negotiated equally on a one country one vote basis. Where necessary it is on an MEP basis. Where we have significant influence.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2016, 11:13:08 AM
A wild exaggeration, and betrays a lack of understanding of how it works in practice.
Law: we are a sovereign nation and all of our laws, including those influenced by the EU, must be passed by parliament. The vast majority of EU laws relate to the operation of the single market.
On the question of democracy - the EU is a democratic organisation where we have approximately 10% of the MEPs. Most things are negotiated equally on a one country one vote basis. Where necessary it is on an MEP basis. Where we have significant influence.
Exactly JP.
Why do the supporters of Brexit need to exaggerate their case, and then fail at the first hurdle to justify their claims ?
The EU as we know is far from perfect, but leaving without a justifiable reason or set of reasons, is something I have yet to see.
For those supporters of Brexit, I will vote in the early evening after work.. Now give me reasons in the mean time to change my decision to an 'out' vote.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 23, 2016, 11:18:16 AM
As i have said before....even if there is a majority today I doubt we will leave.....i hope i am wrong
If the people vote to leave, leave it will be, Cameron has no other choice. Junckers certainly put the boot in yesterday by saying no more deals. He was reading from the script according to Merkel of course, she dictates who gets what since without Germany there would be no EU.
Its so funny really and some people still cannot see through this sham organisation or should that be cartel? @)(++(*
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 23, 2016, 11:24:43 AM
Why do the supporters of Brexit need to exaggerate their case, and then fail at the first hurdle to justify their claims ?
The EU as we know is far from perfect, but leaving without a justifiable reason or set of reasons, is something I have yet to see.
For those supporters of Brexit, I will vote in the early evening after work.. Now give me reasons in the mean time to change my decision to an 'out' vote.
If you want unfettered immigration to our beautiful country vote #remain.
If you want to continue to send £ billions abroad to prop up basket-case countries, be my guest, vote #remain.
If you want to continue to pay over the odds for inflated EU goods go out and vote #remain.
If you want to keep the door shut to worldwide trade please vote #remain.
If you have a self serving vested interest in the EU, vote #remain.
For those who want none of the above Vote Leave! Simples!
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2016, 11:30:57 AM
You have already been provided with stats showing how relatively little we give to the EU compared to other spending.
By the way, we do trade with world.
Reality Stephen. The EU is a one way road to nowhere! Fortunately, London is not the centre of the universe and it will be the vast majority who decide whether to stay or to leave.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 23, 2016, 11:55:46 AM
Reality Stephen. The EU is a one way road to nowhere! Fortunately, London is not the centre of the universe and it will be the vast majority who decide whether to stay or to leave.
Really John.
You have your view others have theirs.
We will see tomorrow morning.
Whichever way it goes, the result will have to be accepted.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 23, 2016, 01:45:38 PM
I'm firmly against Remain, so firmly infact that, to make my feelings absolutely clear, I put a big cross on the ballot paper in the remain box.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 23, 2016, 01:53:25 PM
A wild exaggeration, and betrays a lack of understanding of how it works in practice.
Law: we are a sovereign nation and all of our laws, including those influenced by the EU, must be passed by parliament. The vast majority of EU laws relate to the operation of the single market.
On the question of democracy - the EU is a democratic organisation where we have approximately 10% of the MEPs. Most things are negotiated equally on a one country one vote basis. Where necessary it is on an MEP basis. Where we have significant influence.
I believe the disingenuity is with you. Our laws and especially our human rights laws take a back seat to the European Court of Human Rights. Parliament only rubber stamps the laws which have to be tailored to EU protocols, regulations and legislation. Without the Council of Europe and the EU there would probably never have been such a thing as the Human Rights Acts across the UK such is the EU power.
The UK Supreme Court can be overruled by the European Court but then you knew that didn't you? 8(0(*
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 23, 2016, 04:22:32 PM
I believe the disingenuity is with you. Our laws and especially our human rights laws take a back seat to the European Court of Human Rights. Parliament only rubber stamps the laws which have to be tailored to EU protocols, regulations and legislation. Without the Council of Europe and the EU there would probably never have been such a thing as the Human Rights Acts across the UK such is the EU power.
The UK Supreme Court can be overruled by the European Court but then you knew that didn't you? 8(0(*
You may wish to consider a few things.
The ECHR is not an EU institution. So leaving the EU will not in itself change our relationship with the EU
Generally where UK law is incompatible with the ECHR then a dialogue will suggest ways of making it compatible.
For example, Where the courts disagree, then there have been occasions where the Supreme Court has sent cases back to ECHR for reconsideration - e.g R v Hardcastle. 2009. In a subsequent similar case of Al-Khawaja 2011 the ECHR followed the UK Supreme Court judgement in R v Harcastle.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 23, 2016, 04:37:33 PM
The ECHR is not an EU institution. So leaving the EU will not in itself change our relationship with the EU
Generally where UK law is incompatible with the ECHR then a dialogue will suggest ways of making it compatible.
For example, Where the courts disagree, then there have been occasions where the Supreme Court has sent cases back to ECHR for reconsideration - e.g R v Hardcastle. 2009. In a subsequent similar case of Al-Khawaja 2011 the ECHR followed the UK Supreme Court judgement in R v Harcastle.
You are like a worm on the end of my fishing line. The ECHR has the final say at the moment...end off!!
Time to get out of this shambles.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2016, 04:39:35 PM
Don't think there's much chance, scipio... most Brits are a people who prefer the dreary status quo and are frightened of living dangerously.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 23, 2016, 10:03:25 PM
.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: rotti on June 23, 2016, 10:04:28 PM
Witty,another lie from the pm was we would suffer in forms of defence,nonsense we are a nuclear power and our enemies know what will happen to them,they will be wiped of the face of the earth 8(0(*
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: rotti on June 23, 2016, 10:06:06 PM
Witty,another lie from the pm was we would suffer in forms of defence,nonsense we are a nuclear power and our enemies know what will happen to them,they will be wiped of the face of the earth 8(0(*
Dear oh dear. %&5%£ %&5%£
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 23, 2016, 10:19:16 PM
Don't think there's much chance, scipio... most Brits are a people who prefer the dreary status quo and are frightened of living dangerously.
Most Brits are apparently, if the forecasts are accurate perhaps (a) clever enough to spot a bunch of snake oil salesmen - Gove, Johnson and Farage and (b) not stupid enough to exchange a winning game for a crock of sh1t.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 23, 2016, 11:19:15 PM
Most Brits are apparently, if the forecasts are accurate perhaps (a) clever enough to spot a bunch of snake oil salesmen - Gove, Johnson and Farage and (b) not stupid enough to exchange a winning game for a crock of sh1t.
It's a good job you qualified it with names, J-P, otherwise it would have been difficult to work out which side you were talking about ?{)(**.
I wonder if Boris is packing his stick and spotted hanky? Dave will give Boris a big pat on the back after Dave has made sure that Dave has a pitchfork in his hand at the time.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 23, 2016, 11:36:16 PM
It's a good job you qualified it with names, J-P, otherwise it would have been difficult to work out which side you were talking about ?{)(**.
I wonder if Boris is packing his stick and spotted hanky? Dave will give Boris a big pat on the back after Dave has made sure that Dave has a pitchfork in his hand at the time.
Actually I agree with you Alice - none of the whole lot come out with any credit. Apart from, possibly, Khan and Davidson.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Admin on June 23, 2016, 11:36:38 PM
The concensus appears to be at this stage, even before a single vote is counted, that the country is split down the middle. That in itself is not a good omen going forward.
If remain do win, Jo Cox will have lost her life for nothing.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 24, 2016, 12:22:10 AM
The concensus appears to be at this stage, even before a single vote is counted, that the country is split down the middle. That in itself is not a good omen going forward.
If remain do win, Jo Cox will have lost her life for nothing.
Regadless of who wins by a slim margin then Cameron and the Tory governmant will have their work cut out for them knowing that half the country are totally against any dealings with the EU.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: mercury on June 24, 2016, 12:31:06 AM
No one should be counting any chkens at all at the moment, all the "experts" did not predict the almost 50/50 newcastle result Its going to be very very very close I reckon
You can watch the percentages at top of this page live through the night http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/23/eu-referendum-result-live-counting-leave-remain-brain-in-europe
Leave 51 remain 49 a few mins ago
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 24, 2016, 01:05:17 AM
No one should be counting any chkens at all at the moment, all the "experts" did not predict the almost 50/50 newcastle result Its going to be very very very close I reckon
You can watch the percentages at top of this page live through the night http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/23/eu-referendum-result-live-counting-leave-remain-brain-in-europe
Leave 51 remain 49 a few mins ago
With 8 jurisdictions in leave 53 stay 47
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 24, 2016, 01:36:49 AM
now 10 jurisdicitons in: 52 leave 48 stay
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 24, 2016, 01:58:37 AM
26 in- 51.3 leave
33 in- 54 leave
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 24, 2016, 02:28:00 AM
44 in 50.1 remain- Scotland has very heavy remain figures coming in
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 24, 2016, 02:31:36 AM
56 reporting 51% stay
68 reporting 51% stay
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: mercury on June 24, 2016, 02:40:49 AM
At least the scots cant be blamed as theyve voted in so far
How many results i wonder need to come in to show a general trend, as i said before its a very close call, and so far its for the brexiters, and i hope both sides have contingency plans for all fallouts
I blame cameron for the whole mess, hes never done anythng much for this country, if anything
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 24, 2016, 02:43:12 AM
At least the scots cant be blamed as theyve voted in so far
How many results i wonder need to come in to show a general trend, as i said before its a very close call, and so far its for the brexiters, and i hope both sides have contingency plans for all fallouts
I blame cameron for the whole mess, hes never done anythng much for this country, if anything
Why they want to stay is beyond me.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: mercury on June 24, 2016, 02:45:26 AM
Probably not nearly as screwed over as wales, seems unanmous there
All this lies on the heads of the politicians and not the population, it is like a shadow general election, people are voting against the tories and their suck policies, not the ins and outs of the eu IMO
Oh and northern ireland are leavers too shock horror
Someone has to take responsibility
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 24, 2016, 02:51:51 AM
84 in 50.1% stay
94 in 50.1% leave
101 in 50.1% stay
112 in 50.2% leave
122 in 50.2% leave
146 in 50.7% leave
162 in 51.2% leave
176 in 51.3% leave
188 in 51.6% leave
211 in 51.3% leave
231 in 51.3% leave
242 in 51.2% leave only 2 Scottish remain uncounted (Scotland so far: 1,337,502 stay/803,224 leave)
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 24, 2016, 03:32:31 AM
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 24, 2016, 04:50:15 AM
Both Sky News and the BBC now predict a win for the LEAVE campaign suggesting a final vote of around 52% to 48%. There just aren't enough undeclared districts left which can help remain.
Nigel Farage calls for David Cameron to resign! There exists a disconnect between London and the regions.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 24, 2016, 04:52:55 AM
325/382 in 14.1 million leave 13.1 million stay
Insufficient votes left to overtake the no, all news outlets call race for Brexit- US Dow stock futures down more than 600 points
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 24, 2016, 04:54:30 AM
BBC & SKY both now forecast leave.
I must say, waking up & watching the lefties cry.....deep joy.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 24, 2016, 04:56:24 AM
I must say, waking up & watching the lefties cry.....deep joy.
It's midnight here and loony economists are spreading fear and panic in the stock market futures as if the US won't be trading with the UK anymore because of this- stupid morons.
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 24, 2016, 04:58:22 AM
329/382 in 14.356 million leave; 13.4 million stay
It's midnight here and loony economists are spreading fear and panic in the stock market futures as if the US won't be trading with the UK anymore because of this- stupid morons.
The British pound is down almost 10% against the US dollar, interesting times. 8@??)(
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Myster on June 24, 2016, 05:01:02 AM
I must say, waking up & watching the lefties cry.....deep joy.
"I DON'T BELIEVE IT!" - as Victor Meldrew would say! Farage was keeping his cards close to his chest... he knew it was in the bag when he didn't turn up for the last debate and feigned defeat.
Yay!!! Up yours, Junckers!!! @)(++(*
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 24, 2016, 05:01:49 AM
Mmmm, that's unusual... where have Stephen and Jean-Pierre disappeared to?
Gone into hiding, I guess! 8()-000( 8()-000(
...under the blankets. @)(++(*
Title: Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
Post by: John on June 24, 2016, 05:24:24 AM
As I predicted, the majority of British people have had enough of the Euro wasters so have voted to leave with a majority of around a million votes. This is a brilliant result considering the Nationalist remain votes in N Ireland and Scotland which had nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with being anti English.
Maybe it's time the rest of us in the UK had a vote on whether we even want Scotland?