Author Topic: EU membership, should we stay or leave?  (Read 126774 times)

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Offline John

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #390 on: June 22, 2016, 07:10:38 PM »
Its fascinating that instead of pointing out where Michael Dougan's excellent and reasoned analysis of the EU constitutional and legal position, all that you can manage is:

"My experience of academics is that their grasp of the real world is limited"

"He earns his salary because of the EU.  He has thus a vested interest in its survival"

In other words "i don't like / understand what he is saying, so I'll take the easy way out and sneer that he is "an expert" or "an academic".

If you are going to make a case for Leave, then at least do so on the basis of facts and argument - not ill informed opinion.  This decision is too bl**dy important for our children.     

So where is he wrong on the EU?

Just a couple of points will do.

Oh OK then I will listen to his speel.

He claims the UK is a major player with the EU and has great influence.  As suspected, he has over egged it to suit his own agenda.  Every member has the same voting right so a consensus of eastern bloc entities can simply vote to suit their own particular needs.  Certainly the big three as he refers to them can veto any vote but that sort of defeats the whole purpose of it supposedly being a democracy in the first place.  Do we have enormous influence?  No, not necessarily, we just give away more than just about anyone else for the privilege.  As to being a major player within the EU, well, a major net contributor yes.

He goes on to introduce the Balance of Competencies EU review which was undertaken by the UK government between 2012 and 2014 which according to the Foreign Secretary hardly represented a glowing report card.

Welcoming the conclusion of the review, the Foreign Secretary, Phillip Hammond, said:

This two-year review to examine the impact of EU membership on the UK is unprecedented in its size and scale. Many themes that have emerged chime with priorities that the UK and European partners have pressed the Commission to pursue. In particular, they underline the need for the EU to focus on those areas where it genuinely adds value, alongside pursuing an ambitious reform agenda for the benefit of all 28 Member States. There are many areas where action can and should be taken in Member States rather than at the EU level.

The review provides a wealth of material that anyone interested in reform can draw upon and the 32 reports provide evidence about every area of EU activity, allowing people to judge for themselves how the current arrangements are working. These reports provide further evidence of the need for a change in Britain’s relationship with the EU.


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/final-reports-in-review-of-eu-balance-of-competences-published

According to Dougan every major stakeholder saw no problem with the EU, the emphasis being on the word major.  Unsurprising really given their own vested interests. Undoubtedly the majority of those major stakeholders have their corporate headquarters in London and see themselves as the centre of the universe.

Sorry JP, cannot watch any more of that video as it sounds like a #remain propaganda broadcast.   6&%5%



« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 08:04:23 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #391 on: June 22, 2016, 07:26:13 PM »
Who have come a long way since the 70's?

Where have they come from exactly & how is it that Brexit will destroy them?

You've lost me.

Vote Leave, it's easier to understand.

Just meaningless slogans.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #392 on: June 22, 2016, 07:29:30 PM »
Brexiteers seem to me largely motivated by a fear of increasing numbers of immigrants coming to these shores, but if they think that will be the case post-Brexit they are IMO living in cloud-cuckoo land.  Consider this (written by Daniel Finkelstein, so ripe for ridicule by the Leavers, but never mind...)

"By leaving the European single market, Britain makes itself a less attractive place for big businesses to invest. This is hard to dispute, and in any case they are overwhelmingly telling us themselves. It will also make it harder for us to trade.

So unless we act, we will be poorer. The Leave economic argument is that by freeing ourselves from the EU we will be able to act. The Remainiacs aren’t getting this, they argue. We won’t just be sitting here, suffering. We will be taking back control.

Now think what this might mean in practice. To be a success outside the single market, to be attractive to businesses and to investment, we would need to be a European offshore low-cost competitive mecca for companies.


We would have to offset the increased cost of doing business here that leaving brings (in the form of barriers, both tariff and non-tariff, to European trade) by cutting our own costs even more sharply.

We would need to have lower taxes on foreign rich people than the Continent, pay lower wages to unskilled people than elsewhere in Europe and cut public spending further to keep taxes down. We would need to make old people work longer. Oh, and we would need a huge influx of immigrants, both skilled and unskilled, to ensure that we had a very competitive workforce".

Now tell me why he is wrong.

 (written by Daniel Finkelstein, so ripe for ridicule by the Leavers, but never mind...)

Indeed he is.

A guy who belives that a man in the sky wants little boys to have their genitals mutilated.

It's very easy to disregard anything that he say's on that basis alone.
I stand with Putin. Glory to Mother Putin.

Offline John

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #393 on: June 22, 2016, 07:46:20 PM »
Brexiteers seem to me largely motivated by a fear of increasing numbers of immigrants coming to these shores, but if they think that will be the case post-Brexit they are IMO living in cloud-cuckoo land.  Consider this (written by Daniel Finkelstein, so ripe for ridicule by the Leavers, but never mind...)

So your policy would be to let them all in.  How about the migrant who walked through the Channel Tunnel? 

https://twitter.com/Justice_forum/status/745579521487831040
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #394 on: June 22, 2016, 07:52:01 PM »
By leaving the European single market, Britain makes itself a less attractive place for big businesses to invest. This is hard to dispute, and in any case they are overwhelmingly telling us themselves. It will also make it harder for us to trade.

That is untrue.  By leaving the EU the UK will open itself up to world markets previously unattractive because of artificial EU customs tariffs.  Even Cameron has admitted that the UK is very capable of standing alone in the big world.

We don't need the EU, we have never needed the EU, all it ever was was an experiment in economic cooperation which has become both too long in the tooth and surpassed its sell-by date.  It is a stepping stone to a federal Europe, closer political allegiances and a United States of Europe.  A socialist Europe by any means led by the remnants of the old East German Communist populous.

Frankly, I hope enough people have the guts to stand up for what they believe in tomorrow because they will never get another opportunity like it for a very long time.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 08:02:17 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #395 on: June 22, 2016, 08:07:01 PM »
That is untrue.  By leaving the EU the UK will open itself up to world markets previously unattractive because of artificial EU customs tariffs.  Even Cameron has admitted that the UK is very capable of standing alone in the big world.

We don't need the EU, we have never needed the EU, all it ever was was an experiment in economic cooperation which has become both too long in the tooth and surpassed its sell-by date.  It is a stepping stone to a federal Europe, closer political allegiances and a United States of Europe.  A socialist Europe by any means led by the remnants of the old East German Communist populous.

Frankly, I hope enough people have the guts to stand up for what they believe in tomorrow because they will never get another opportunity like it for a very long time.

We have the 5 th largest economy in the world.

Why jeopardize that with meaningless and unsubstantiated  claims of life in airy fairy land ?

Offline Wonderfulspam

« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 08:38:38 PM by Wonderfulspam »
I stand with Putin. Glory to Mother Putin.

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #397 on: June 22, 2016, 08:39:17 PM »
That is untrue.  By leaving the EU the UK will open itself up to world markets previously unattractive because of artificial EU customs tariffs.  Even Cameron has admitted that the UK is very capable of standing alone in the big world.

We don't need the EU, we have never needed the EU, all it ever was was an experiment in economic cooperation which has become both too long in the tooth and surpassed its sell-by date.  It is a stepping stone to a federal Europe, closer political allegiances and a United States of Europe.  A socialist Europe by any means led by the remnants of the old East German Communist populous.

Frankly, I hope enough people have the guts to stand up for what they believe in tomorrow because they will never get another opportunity like it for a very long time.
If it's such a wonderful opportunty for big business why are so many big businesses based here opposed to Brexit? 

Offline John

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #398 on: June 22, 2016, 08:39:54 PM »
We have the 5 th largest economy in the world.

Why jeopardize that with meaningless and unsubstantiated  claims of life in airy fairy land ?

But that's it Stephen, we won't be jeopardising anything.  It's all bigger and better away from the EU wasters.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #399 on: June 22, 2016, 08:42:32 PM »
If it's such a wonderful opportunty for big business why are so many big businesses based here opposed to Brexit?

Just like so many favour it.   IT SUITS THEM!

Think of all that lovely wine, grapes and strawberries not to mention the Renaults, Seats and Mercs.  All at the price we want to pay and not at the price they can get away fleecing us under EU rules.   8(*(
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 08:46:16 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #400 on: June 22, 2016, 08:44:15 PM »
So your policy would be to let them all in.  How about the migrant who walked through the Channel Tunnel? 

https://twitter.com/Justice_forum/status/745579521487831040
What I am saying is that Brexit is viewed as some magic wand to take us back to pre-Windrush 1950s Britain  and it just ain't going to happen.  Immigration will continue in the hundreds of thousands for years to come, I really can't see that changing anytime soon. 

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #401 on: June 22, 2016, 08:45:57 PM »
Just like so many favour it.   IT SUITS THEM!
That doesn't make sense.  You tell us the Brexit will be brilliant for business as it will open up trade outside the EU.  That being the case then ALL businesses would be in favour of Brexit but very clearly that is not the case.  WHY NOT?

Offline John

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #402 on: June 22, 2016, 08:48:28 PM »
That doesn't make sense.  You tell us the Brexit will be brilliant for business as it will open up trade outside the EU.  That being the case then ALL businesses would be in favour of Brexit but very clearly that is not the case.  WHY NOT?

Could it be that most big charities and many big businesses get lucrative handouts from the EU?   £4%4%
Without the EU gravy train they would be stuffed!

Vested interest dear Alf...     Vested interest!
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #403 on: June 22, 2016, 08:56:04 PM »
But that's it Stephen, we won't be jeopardising anything.  It's all bigger and better away from the EU wasters.

That is the whole point John.

All we have from Brexit is slogans.


They might as well sing 'follow the yellow brick road'

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #404 on: June 22, 2016, 09:02:54 PM »
Fair enough John.  Well done for trying.  8(0(*