UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: a.baker on June 02, 2014, 12:35:26 PM
-
British police arrive at scrubland site 300 yards from Praia da Luz apartment to start digging as part of investigation for missing Madeleine McCann
- Officers are guarding hilltop in Praia da Luz where groundwork starts today
- Site is 300 metres from apartment where Madeleine disappeared in May 2007
- Scotland Yard detectives have arrived in Portugal to oversee excavation
- Up to a dozen British officers have been surveying land that overlooks sea
- Radar and digging machinery will be used to try to find out if she is hidden
- A number of tents have been erected on the 15 acre site on edge of resort
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/02/article-2645906-1E6869A100000578-479_634x490.jpg)
Scotland Yard detectives searching for Madeleine McCann have today been surveying wasteland in Portugal where police plan to start digging. The site is 300 yards from the Praia da Luz apartment she vanished from and close to where a suspect was seen with a girl in his arms on the night she was abducted in May 2007. The extensive groundwork, using radar equipment and mechanical diggers, is the most significant police activity in years as part of renewed work to finally solve the mystery of Madeleine's disappearance.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/02/article-2645906-1E69479300000578-102_634x466.jpg)
Scotland Yard detectives arrived in Portugal late last night ahead of excavations and were driven in five vans to a hill overlooking the Atlantic, before unpacking large amounts of equipment. Sources told MailOnline the groundwork has started but all of it will be carried out inside tents that are being put up all over the site.
More...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2645906/Police-hunting-Madeleine-McCann-seal-land-Portugal-prepare-start-digging.html
-
They have GNR dogs! One German Shepherd and one Rottweiler
-
They have GNR dogs! One German Shepherd and one Rottweiler
Erm.... they might be to keep the press at bay. ;)
-
I'm sure I read in one of the papers today that they intended using rescue dogs. Can they detect cadaver scent ?
-
I'm sure I read in one of the papers today that they intended using rescue dogs. Can they detect cadaver scent ?
There are many different types of dogs all trained to do a variety of tasks so it is impossible to differentiate between them.
-
theres 2 tents been seen what does that mean??
-
theres 2 tents been seen what does that mean??
They are too intense.... 8)-)))
-
theres 2 tents been seen what does that mean??
Could it mean they've found something ?
I thought the police put tents up to protect a crime scene
-
According to the DM, all digging will take place inside the tents.
This would suggest that they have some pretty specific targets in mind.
-
They are too intense.... 8)-)))
bwahahahahhaha
Seriously I counted NINE separate officers in one picture alone, yet Team McCann STILL insist it's just a shot in the dark.
No police force in the world sends at least 9 specialists to a foreign country, to dig for a sign of a missing child, on a WHIM.
-
I'm sure I read in one of the papers today that they intended using rescue dogs. Can they detect cadaver scent ?
Eddie was a Rescue Dog. Or a Victim Recovery Dog.
All dogs can detect Cadaver Scent. But so can humans. Dogs just do it sooner. All dogs, that is.
-
Somebody went to a lot of trouble to take Madeleine & foil the search. In the circumstances it is highly unlikely she has been buried anywhere near the original crime scene if she is indeed dead, unless someone planned for her body to be found at a later date.
Thats the thing though isnt it why?
Its 300 yards away. The child was taken around 9pm when did this person get time to bury a child in the scrubland?
It wasnt so scrubby then from earlier photos so when all the locals who walked this area extensively and the dogs were used to sniff for a missing child nothing was found.
As its so close to activity even if someone went back much later even weeks wouldnt they have been noticed?
If i had taken the child as a pedophile why bury the child, most are taken and just left to be found sadly dead.
The did dig Ben Needhams old home but found nothing.
I really do hope some how she is found and then everyone can get closure.
But not sure its going to be here....
Some how.
-
The area is 5 acres.
This is quite significant, much larger than what I had originally thought.
How long did she need to be "hidden" for?
Until the PJ arrived, which was not until 1am or so.
Madeleine could have been hidden in a bin temporarily, then moved after the first rush of searchers.
People were looking for a LIVE child, even the PJ.
-
Eddie was a Rescue Dog. Or a Victim Recovery Dog.
All dogs can detect Cadaver Scent. But so can humans. Dogs just do it sooner. All dogs, that is.
Now you come to mention it, I suppose they can. ?{)(**
-
WHY they're digging there is the question. They're not digging there because it looks like a good spot to hide a body.
-
WHY they're digging there is the question. They're not digging there because it looks like a good spot to hide a body.
Firstly, they aren't digging. They are searching and surveying. Any digging that MAY occur will occur AFTER the searching and surveying. Personally, I doubt there will be much (if any) digging.
Secondly, I suspect that it 'looking like a good spot' is exactly why they are there. If you think it's because of anything more specific than that, then I'm afraid you are mistaken.
-
I would be amazed if they don't employ dogs at some point, but I wonder whether the ones we are seeing at this stage are the GNR dogs.
-
I would be amazed if they don't employ dogs at some point, but I wonder whether the ones we are seeing at this stage are the GNR dogs.
I don't think so.
The GNR dogs were supposed to be German Shepherds and the like, not cuddly , loveable Spaniels .
https://twitter.com/jonkay01/status/473745649536860160
-
Firstly, they aren't digging. They are searching and surveying. Any digging that MAY occur will occur AFTER the searching and surveying. Personally, I doubt there will be much (if any) digging.
Secondly, I suspect that it 'looking like a good spot' is exactly why they are there. If you think it's because of anything more specific than that, then I'm afraid you are mistaken.
The areas they want to search are connected to Smithman. If he went up Rua 25 de Abril it leads you to the scrubland where they are now. If he went the opposite way it leads to the church where the next search areas are located so it definitely connects with the prime suspect.
-
I don't think so.
The GNR dogs were supposed to be German Shepherds and the like, not cuddly , loveable Spaniels .
https://twitter.com/jonkay01/status/473745649536860160
Those unreliable dogs are back. Yes a spaniel like Eddie.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpMVKHMIUAAct5K.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpMoIdWIIAAdZ6E.jpg)
-
According to tweets from ITV, the dogs and their handlers are Welsh. So, not Grime then.
https://mobile.twitter.com/GarethITV
-
According to tweets from ITV, the dogs and their handlers are Welsh. So, not Grime then.
https://mobile.twitter.com/GarethITV
Used in the April Jones case maybe...?
-
Used in the April Jones case maybe...?
Good point, might be.
-
According to tweets from ITV, the dogs and their handlers are Welsh. So, not Grime then.
https://mobile.twitter.com/GarethITV
Who cares?
I'm sure the dogs will be highly trained, wherever they come from.
-
Used in the April Jones case maybe...?
Welsh police officers and sniffer dogs involved in the search for April Jones are in Portugal helping with the search for missing Madeleine McCann.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/madeleine-mccann-search-april-jones-7208309
-
I have thoroughly walked all the zone been searched now in March 2012, taking more than 100 pics. You can find most of these pics at http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/H3.htm (http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/H3.htm) (pics PA310304.jpg to PA310397.jpg), and http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/H6.htm (http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/H6.htm) (pics PB011067.jpg to PB011076.jpg).
-
I have thoroughly walked all the zone been searched now in March 2012, taking more than 100 pics. You can find most of these pics at http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/H3.htm (http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/H3.htm) (pics PA310304.jpg to PA310397.jpg).
Thank you, Heriberto.
Last night an ex pat being interviewed in a news programme [Sky, I think] said this area had not been searched in 2007.
There have also been statements in the press from other residents that the area was searched immediately after Madeleine's disappearance.
Do you have any information about who is right or who is wrong?
-
An example of the task faced by the police, even when they know approx. where a cadaver is buried.
http://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/2014/03/20/whalen-led-police-to-toddlers-grave
-
It now appears that the UK police doing the searching from South Wales, who took part in the April Jones case, are using SPANIELS in their searches.
Oh the irony.
-
It now appears that the UK police doing the searching from South Wales, who took part in the April Jones case, are using SPANIELS in their searches.
Oh the irony.
Spaniels are relatively small, and intelligent. But I've got a very clever Pug if they want to borrow it.
-
Spaniels are relatively small, and intelligent. But I've got a very clever Pug if they want to borrow it.
No need.
The other spaniels did their jobbthe first time. 8((()*/
-
It now appears that the UK police doing the searching from South Wales, who took part in the April Jones case, are using SPANIELS in their searches.
Oh the irony.
In what way is that ironic? Let us not forget that poor April was abducted and murdered, and her body never found.
-
In what way is that ironic? Let us not forget that poor April was abducted and murdered, and her body never found.
I wasn't referring to that.
I was referring to Mr. Grime.
Do keep up.
-
In what way is that ironic? Let us not forget that poor April was abducted and murdered, and her body never found.
The irony, I believe, is the apparent confidence the police have in the dogs that Gerry McCann described as 'incredibly unreliable'
-
A cordoned off area to be checked.
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/75274000/jpg/_75274613_praia.jpg)
-
A cordoned off area to be checked.
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/75274000/jpg/_75274613_praia.jpg)
So this is the sort of sun-baked, hard ground we think could be dug with bare hands, deep enough to hide a child's body is it?
-
So this is the sort of sun-baked, hard ground we think could be dug with bare hands, deep enough to hide a child's body is it?
If I was desperate to hide a kids body, I reckon I'd give it a go.
-
You'd probably start with an existing hole, or at least a depression in the ground.
-
So this is the sort of sun-baked, hard ground we think could be dug with bare hands, deep enough to hide a child's body is it?
I've had a look at the photographs of the area to which Heriberto supplied a link.
My immediate thought was that the allegations which have been made are sheer nonsense when one thinks how dark this area must be in the night.
IMO it would be physically impossible for a stranger to locate, navigate, successfully bury a child's body then return to base without breaking sweat.
-
You'd probably start with an existing hole, or at least a depression in the ground.
Which you'd just happen upon in the dark I guess...
-
I've had a look at the photographs of the area to which Heriberto supplied a link.
My immediate thought was that the allegations which have been made are sheer nonsense when one thinks how dark this area must be in the night.
IMO it would be physically impossible for a stranger to locate, navigate, successfully bury a child's body then return to base without breaking sweat.
You are assuming that this burial took place immediately following Madeleine's disappearance. This may not have been the case.
-
So this is the sort of sun-baked, hard ground we think could be dug with bare hands, deep enough to hide a child's body is it?
Of course not but maybe you can provide me with a photo of that same area in May 2007 to see if there was anything on top of that ground? Maybe a big pile of rubble was once there. Don't judge it on how it looks now.
-
If it was a planned abduction by someone on foot the perpetrator most probably had a site already prepared, all he would have to do is fill it in and cover it. To reach today's area of activity all Smithman had to do was to go down the steps and turn right but that in itself would have brought him into contact with other patrons from the bars nearby. The choice of this 5 acre area of scrubland is puzzling?
-
Just to clarify your last statement, are your suggesting that the alleged abductor went almost directly from the apartment to the pre-prepared site or that there was a longer time gap between the alleged abduction and the visit to the pre-prepared site? My gut reaction is that either scenarious just dont add up
And just to add to that, is anyone aware of any recorded examples of where a child has been abducted by a stranger, killed and disposed of so close to the original location?
-
elsewhere people have said the ground is too hard for digging well the police are now digging!!!
-
Of course not but maybe you can provide me with a photo of that same area in May 2007 to see if there was anything on top of that ground? Maybe a big pile of rubble was once there. Don't judge it on how it looks now.
If there was a big pile of rubble there that has now gone then it would have been at that point that a body would likely have been uncovered don't you think?
-
elsewhere people have said the ground is too hard for digging well the police are now digging!!!
Yes with great big shovels and JCBs - were these available to the people whom you suspect of burying Madeleine's body?
-
Of course not but maybe you can provide me with a photo of that same area in May 2007 to see if there was anything on top of that ground? Maybe a big pile of rubble was once there. Don't judge it on how it looks now.
By the way, any reason you can think of why the Portuguese police wouldn't have checked out a big pile of rubble in a small village where a child had disappeared in suspicious circumstances...?
-
Perhaps this body was concealed in a crevice and then covered over, rather than digging a hole from scratch.
I'm interested that there now seems to be a more general acceptance that a body is being sought.
-
IIRC and JIMO the current area is mentioned in two statements in the files but this is not by address or map reference it is from my interpretation which others may think is rubbish as usual.
-
Perhaps this body was concealed in a crevice and then covered over, rather than digging a hole from scratch.
I'm interested that there now seems to be a more general acceptance that a body is being sought.
'There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Madeleine has been harmed.'
-
'There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Madeleine has been harmed.'
As you don't seem to realise just because there is no evidence maddie is dead..death is not ruled out
-
Perhaps this body was concealed in a crevice and then covered over, rather than digging a hole from scratch.
I'm interested that there now seems to be a more general acceptance that a body is being sought.
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. It would certainly have been a stroke of luck for someone desperate to hide a body in the dark to stumble across a convenient pile of rubble or a crevice in the dark.
As far as your second point is concerned, it has always been my view that Madeleine didn't make it far out of PdL and that the answers to her disappearance would be found in or near the town. If the police are looking for a body I'm wondering why it has taken 7 years to get to this point.
-
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. It would certainly have been a stroke of luck for someone desperate to hide a body in the dark to stumble across a convenient pile of rubble or a crevice in the dark.
As far as your second point is concerned, it has always been my view that Madeleine didn't make it far out of PdL and that the answers to her disappearance would be found in or near the town. If the police are looking for a body I'm wondering why it has taken 7 years to get to this point.
You are assuming that the body was concealed there that night. That may not be the case. It may have been hidden elsewhere (WS's bin for example) and them moved to a more permanent place later.
-
You are assuming that the body was concealed there that night. That may not be the case. It may have been hidden elsewhere (WS's bin for example) and them moved to a more permanent place later.
During daylight hours then you think?
And I thought these bins got emptied daily, in the middle of the night...?
-
Please note that posts specific to the ground searches and excavations currently taking place in Praia da Luz this week should be posted on this thread.
-
They have GNR dogs! One German Shepherd and one Rottweiler
IMO the only dogs searching are two Spaniels, who take their instructions in the Welsh language, Muzzy and Tito.
The GNR dogs I assume are to help guard the site.
-
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. It would certainly have been a stroke of luck for someone desperate to hide a body in the dark to stumble across a convenient pile of rubble or a crevice in the dark.
As far as your second point is concerned, it has always been my view that Madeleine didn't make it far out of PdL and that the answers to her disappearance would be found in or near the town. If the police are looking for a body I'm wondering why it has taken 7 years to get to this point.
Because for the last seven years the McCanns have been asking people to look for Madeleine all over the world ?
Remember that Oprah appeal .... the one that went out to 140 countries ?
You may have always thought Madeleine didn't make it out of PdL but the McCanns didn't appear to, did they ?
-
IMO the only dogs searching are two Spaniels, who take their instructions in the Welsh language, Muzzy and Tito.
The GNR dogs I assume are to help guard the site.
Yes. Should Sandra wish to ask these dogs, she'll need to siarad cymreag...
What happened to searching for evidence, not necessarily a body?
-
You are assuming that this burial took place immediately following Madeleine's disappearance. This may not have been the case.
Actually, I am assuming nothing of the kind, and until evidence to the contrary is found, I will continue to hope that Madeleine is still alive. Therefore I am not even assuming burial.
I make no assumptions and like everyone else, will have to content myself with waiting for the police investigation to reach its conclusion.
-
Yes. Should Sandra wish to ask these dogs, she'll need to siarad cymreag...
What happened to searching for evidence, not necessarily a body?
IMO the two Welsh dogs would be capable of finding a concealment place even if its content has been relocated to elsewhere.
-
IMO the two Welsh dogs would be capable of finding a concealment place even if its content has been relocated to elsewhere.
Yes, I believe they are on a par with Eddie.
-
Yes, I believe they are on a par with Eddie.
Ah, the late lamented star, or bete noir to some.
-
I just hope the dogs in PDL do not alert but no corroborating forensics are found...can you imagine the next million dog posts..the alerts prove maddie must have been there
I wonder if we will ever know whether or not these dogs alerted - it would seem that they may have done as areas of interest have been marked out, but then maybe that's as a result of the ground penetrating radar findings. I suspect if they find nothing we won't be told whether or not the dogs actually did alert. The area they are searching now is used as a pet cemetery according to locals.
-
I wonder if we will ever know whether or not these dogs alerted - it would seem that they may have done as areas of interest have been marked out, but then maybe that's as a result of the ground penetrating radar findings. I suspect if they find nothing we won't be told whether or not the dogs actually did alert. The area they are searching now is used as a pet cemetery according to locals.
How convenient. What a good place to bury a small body.
-
How convenient. What a good place to bury a small body.
Of course it's the kind of thing locals would know well, holidaymakers not so much.
-
The wasteland, which was once used to grow cabbages, is said to be owned by a company run by Belmiro de Azevedo, a Portuguese entrepreneur ranked the 605th richest person in the world and the 2nd in Portugal.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2647004/Kate-Gerry-McCann-ready-significant-news-missing-Madeleine-British-police-prepare-dig-wasteland-Portugal.html
Cabbage patch kid.
-
As we speak, SY have just moved an old sheet of tin and have begun to excavate under it....
http://news.sky.com/story/1274634/madeleine-mccann-digging-begins-in-scrubland
-
As we speak, SY have just moved an old sheet of tin and have begun to excavate under it....
http://news.sky.com/story/1274634/madeleine-mccann-digging-begins-in-scrubland
Do you think it was targeted by those pesky dogs?
-
Do you think it was targeted by those pesky dogs?
Oh those useless bags of meat.
I don't know why the British constabulary forks out so much money for their selection, training and upkeep.
Totally useless!
Except - someone's digging for a body......and I personally believe the ground radar went over weeks ago, and led to this dig.
Alongside SOMEONE'S fairytales being smashed to smithereens by the phone pings and recovered call logs.
OOOOPSIE.
-
Oh those useless bags of meat.
I don't know why the British constabulary forks out so much money for their selection, training and upkeep.
Totally useless!
Except - someone's digging for a body......and I personally believe the ground radar went over weeks ago, and led to this dig.
Alongside SOMEONE'S fairytales being smashed to smithereens by the phone pings and recovered call logs.
OOOOPSIE.
Yes, I imagine something similar - I can't believe they have come to the site cold, with only a week allowed for the dig.
-
Yes, I imagine something similar - I can't believe they have come to the site cold, with only a week allowed for the dig.
You think they employed GPR before they started to cut the long grass and hedges back? Seriously?
-
You think they employed GPR before they started to cut the long grass and hedges back? Seriously?
No, but I'm sure they they studied plenty of aerial surveillance images before ever deciding to set foot on the ground.
-
There is no way any police force IN THE WORLD sends over 30-40 officers (accounts vary) vans full of crime fighting electronica, more dogs, hundreds of ILOR's, on a WHIM.
I know it's a familiar tune with Team McCann - the Police are crap, the dogs are crap - but these are British Police running a British investigation so they are basically accusing the entire British constabulary of being a bunch of Keystone cops determined to waste millions of pounds funding for a treasure hunt that goes nowhere.
Don't forget the military involvement - the Portugese flew an army helicopter over the ground for the benefit of the media.
This was NOT the real thing. The real thing has already been done, secretly, from heights that meant they did it unnoticed.
Some of those ILOR's would be regarding entailing the Portugese Military staff and assistance.
But carry on! The bumblers are in PDL, digging a hole for NOTHING! Yes, 39 senior detectives sent to a foreign country, just for a lucky guess!
Please....this is just getting beyond insane and going toward totally freakin delusional.
-
No, but I'm sure they they studied plenty of aerial surveillance images before ever deciding to set foot on the ground.
Possibly including near-infra-red?
-
I'm afraid I wouldn't know about the technicalities. I leave that to the experts.
-
Apparently they also have archeologists there.
At least 30 officers arrived early on Tuesday morning for the second day of the search. Sky sources understand a team of specialist forensic archaeologists are also working on the site.
http://news.sky.com/story/1274634/madeleine-mccann-digging-begins-in-scrubland
How much does a "team of specialist forensic archaeologists" cost per day?
-
Apparently they also have archeologists there.
At least 30 officers arrived early on Tuesday morning for the second day of the search. Sky sources understand a team of specialist forensic archaeologists are also working on the site.
http://news.sky.com/story/1274634/madeleine-mccann-digging-begins-in-scrubland
How much does a "team of specialist forensic archaeologists" cost per day?
My guess for a week including pay flights meals hotel: several £K each.
But they are essential, it would be daft to dig without them IMO.
It is possible to work out who is who in news footage IMO.
-
My guess for a week including pay flights meals hotel: a few £K each.
But they are essential, it would be daft to dig without them IMO.
It is possible to work out who is who in news footage IMO.
A mere drop in the ocean compared with the millions already spent.
-
My guess for a week including pay flights meals hotel: several £K each.
But they are essential, it would be daft to dig without them IMO.
It is possible to work out who is who in news footage IMO.
Yer. The really brainy ones are the women.
-
Yer. The really brainy ones are the women.
The dogs alone cost about 50k each, just to get them out of their kennels.
Those useless dogs...
Do tell what do YOU think SY have found under that rusty tin?
-
The dogs alone cost about 50k each, just to get them out of their kennels.
Those useless dogs...
Do tell what do YOU think SY have found under that rusty tin?
I don't think the real Police charge that much.
-
I don't think the real Police charge that much.
How about answering the question?
-
The main ITV News at 10 reported that this particular site was used by locals as a pet cemetery, which, if correct, makes the ground search much more difficult. There was also a short interview with an ex-pat who can see the area from her home & took part in the searches there. A video clip was shown in support.
-
The main ITV News at 10 reported that this particular site was used by locals as a pet cemetery, which, if correct, makes the ground search much more difficult. There was also a short interview with an ex-pat who can see the area from her home & took part in the searches there. A video clip was shown in support.
Lol!!!!!
Do tell, everyone posting here - when your pets died, did you ever trespass on vacant ground to bury them?
-
Lol!!!!!
Do tell, everyone posting here - when your pets died, did you ever trespass on vacant ground to bury them?
I can find link of picture of a pet laid to rest in scrubland.
-
Lol!!!!!
Do tell, everyone posting here - when your pets died, did you ever trespass on vacant ground to bury them?
It is unclear how recently the land was used for such a purpose.
-
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/75241000/jpg/_75241258_madeleine_search_624.jpg)
The search site.
Now, we never did find out who searched where in the panic of 3 May, did we?
-
The British and Portugese police "not cooperating" -
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/03/article-2647004-1E6FB3D700000578-357_634x431.jpg)
-
Of all the search sites the press have mentioned, the only one of interest JIMO is the northmost part of the other scrubland site (on west side of Rua 1 Maio), simply because of proximity, literally just over the road from the sister block 4.
The current scrubland being searched starting 3 June seems unlikely to me, because it seems to be based on unconcealed-carrying, which IMO is unlikely.
-
It has been reported they only search in the spots which they identified through satellite images as recently disturbed.
-
We don't know if she was buried. We don't even know yet if she is dead.
If she indeed was buried than the person had to have tools for this..
-
It has been reported they only search in the spots which they identified through satellite images as recently disturbed.
I wonder how long "recently" disturbed is?
-
I wonder how long "recently" disturbed is?
This is what I am wondering too..;)
-
I wonder if this spot was chosen to match the mobile phone masts spots!
As for example if they found a phone being near McCanns home, then near the Smiths sighting and then located the phone in the third place.. this spot!
I'd eat my hat if I am right but this is what my intuition is saying..
-
I'm not certain they expect to find any remains there. They have pinpointed particular areas and are removing stones from these areas for forensic analysis. IMO they appear to be working on the assumption that the areas of interest were only a temporary hiding place and the body moved again later. They will for certain have intelligence for wanting to search these areas. Maybe it is mobile phone pings,but I wonder what they "uncovered" that leads them to think that Madeleine may have died in the apartment after all?
-
I wonder if this spot was chosen to match the mobile phone masts spots!
As for example if they found a phone being near McCanns home, then near the Smiths sighting and then located the phone in the third place.. this spot!
I'd eat my hat if I am right but this is what my intuition is saying..
I wondered the same. If it was a triangulated mobile phone spot.
Cos if am understanding it correctly, they can follow the holder of a mobile phone around even when it is switched off.
-
I'm not certain they expect to find any remains there. They have pinpointed particular areas and are removing stones from these areas for forensic analysis. IMO they appear to be working on the assumption that the areas of interest were only a temporary hiding place and the body moved again later. They will for certain have intelligence for wanting to search these areas. Maybe it is mobile phone pings,but I wonder what they "uncovered" that leads them to think that Madeleine may have died in the apartment after all?
Who said they believe Madeleine died in the apartment???
-
I'm not certain they expect to find any remains there. They have pinpointed particular areas and are removing stones from these areas for forensic analysis. IMO they appear to be working on the assumption that the areas of interest were only a temporary hiding place and the body moved again later.
What evidence would they expect to find on the stones under which there has been no body for years, going with your assumprion that they are thinking it was only a temporary hiding spot? >@@(*&)
-
It has been reported, apparently, that the 3 POI's (the burglars?) live nearby. The mound is also known locally as a gathering place for alcoholics & drug-users, according to Daily Mirror today.
Could it be they the phone triangulation has placed the 3, and maybe Euclides Monteiro, in this place on that night -possibly to take drugs as EM used heroin - and also in & around OC?
-
Because if they find a body they find bones right? They won't have disintegrated after 7 years. They are taking away stones and soil samples,maybe you should ask them why? And Vixte - Redwood said recently that Madeleine may possibily have not left the apartment alive didn't he? Does that not equate to - may have died in the apartment?
-
If there was a big pile of rubble there that has now gone then it would have been at that point that a body would likely have been uncovered don't you think?
If a body was hidden why do you think it stayed there?
-
It has been reported, apparently, that the 3 POI's (the burglars?) live nearby. The mound is also known locally as a gathering place for alcoholics & drug-users, according to Daily Mirror today.
Could it be they the phone triangulation has placed the 3, and maybe Euclides Monteiro, in this place on that night -possibly to take drugs as EM used heroin - and also in & around OC?
Tracking a mobile definitely. I wonder who's >@@(*&) A black smithman 8-)(--)
-
Another thing that bothers me.
This place seems too public for trying to hide or bury a body. Seems the perfect place for courting couples to gather in their cars.
Still it seems Sy are interested, so ..........?
-
It has been reported, apparently, that the 3 POI's (the burglars?) live nearby. The mound is also known locally as a gathering place for alcoholics & drug-users, according to Daily Mirror today.
Could it be they the phone triangulation has placed the 3, and maybe Euclides Monteiro, in this place on that night -possibly to take drugs as EM used heroin - and also in & around OC?
Yup. And then Euclides Monteiro, full of heroin, managed to slip noiselesly to the apartment 5A, maneuver through the unlit childrens bedroom without stumbling, take Maddie away without leaving even a tiniest bit of evidence, and walk with her in his arms, without waking her up, through the streets of Praia without being noticed. All of it while being high on heroin.
Now, THAT requires a real Superman!
-
Tracking a mobile definitely. I wonder who's >@@(*&) A black smithman 8-)(--)
Misty didn't say he was Smithman. She just wondered if he might be up there taking drugs?
-
I read something yesterday saying the police planned to put fibre optic cameras down drains or gutters today, did anyone else see that? I can't seem to find it this morning to paste the link.
-
In the Mail, I think. They also make reference to a hole, that was covered by a metal sheet , which is being examined.
-
I would have thought that once the operation had been started, it would have been more appropriate to allow progress to its conclusion without the constraints of a timetable being imposed.
The Scotland Yard team have approval from officials in Lisbon to conduct searches until the end of the week. The time frame of the operation is unlikely to be extended.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/madeleine-mccann-search-april-jones-3642420
-
In the Mail, I think. They also make reference to a hole, that was covered by a metal sheet , which is being examined.
Hole under corrugated iron sheet.
(http://oi59.tinypic.com/jphnj6.jpg)
-
Hole under corrugated iron sheet.
(http://oi59.tinypic.com/jphnj6.jpg)
8((()*/
Thanks Pfinder
Just why would anyone dig a hole like that I wonder?
-
Yup. And then Euclides Monteiro, full of heroin, managed to slip noiselesly to the apartment 5A, maneuver through the unlit childrens bedroom without stumbling, take Maddie away without leaving even a tiniest bit of evidence, and walk with her in his arms, without waking her up, through the streets of Praia without being noticed. All of it while being high on heroin.
Now, THAT requires a real Superman!
I thought Euclides Monteiro was the PJ's preferred line of enquiry - not SY's?
We can have no idea whether or not the intruder left any evidence because the crime scene was not cordoned off when it should have been - and so evidence could have been destroyed. The shortcomings in expertise by the PJ officers collecting forensics - admitted by Amaral, could also be a contributory factor.
-
Whats the matter with you Pathfinder that you have such a need to be rude?
They're looking for Madeleine's body and you're wondering if a deceased black man was taking drugs there. Maybe they've been tracking his mobile phone to search in these specific areas >@@(*&) But Smithman wasn't black >@@(*&)
-
Looking at the maps and the photos of the area, is it a fair conclusion that anyone who hid a body in that area (long or short term) was either in a situation that they had not planned (would anyone actually choose in advance to use that area?) or just very stupid. The fact that SY are putting such resources there means that they think there is a reasonable chance of finding something (when balanced with the resources required). Therefore, SY have spent some time considering theories that involve someone hiding a body under a set of circumstances that they did not plan. This still, of course, could include a planned abduction that went wrong, burglary that went wrong as well as other options that have been discussed. To put it another way, if SY were absolutely convinced that the body was hidden/disposed of as part of a pre-planned schedule of events and executed by someone who was not very stupid, they would not be digging in this area.
-
Looking at the maps and the photos of the area, is it a fair conclusion that anyone who hid a body in that area (long or short term) was either in a situation that they had not planned (would anyone actually choose in advance to use that area?) or just very stupid. The fact that SY are putting such resources there means that they think there is a reasonable chance of finding something (when balanced with the resources required). Therefore, SY have spent some time considering theories that involve someone hiding a body under a set of circumstances that they did not plan. This still, of course, could include a planned abduction that went wrong, burglary that went wrong as well as other options that have been discussed.
They didn't have a car to get the body out of PDL at the time but maybe that came later >@@(*&)
-
If you know in advavce you need a car, you get a car in advance. You dont plan to have a temp place to hide the body. So yes, not having the use of a car to assist with hiding the body fits in with not having a plan or being very supid
-
They didn't have a car to get the body out of PDL at the time but maybe that came later >@@(*&)
You raise a very good point pathfinder
If the police think someone buried something in that waste ground then they must think it was someone who didn't have transport of any kind
-
Or they did have access to a car but could not use it as they did not have the time to load the body into the car, drive away, dispose etc etc. So again, not having the time leads to the conclusion of a "panic situation" as, obviously, if the operation is planned, then time would have been allocated. I find it very hard not to come to the conclusion that SY think that there is a strong possibility of a "panic" scenario rather than a well planned operation.
-
interesting that (if photo is genuine) both from the angle and the quality etc that that is a photo that was taken with with the full co-operation of SY (looks to be on the land itself?) and also released with their permission. So an effort is being made to get "column inches" for the operation rather than just get on with it and comment later. Unless, of course, a photo journo has managed to get really close which would imply that SY are not in full control of the area. Very interested photo, thanks for posting
-
8((()*/
Thanks Pfinder
Just why would anyone dig a hole like that I wonder?
Could be test holes for possible future building work. Sink holes or drainage?
-
Or they did have access to a car but could not use it as they did not have the time to load the body into the car, drive away, dispose etc etc. So again, not having the time leads to the conclusion of a "panic situation" as, obviously, if the operation is planned, then time would have been allocated. I find it very hard not to come to the conclusion that SY think that there is a strong possibility of a "panic" scenario rather than a well planned operation.
I doubt they have concluded anything yet. So far all they are doing is examining one area. They may (probably) find nothing.
-
Or they did have access to a car but could not use it as they did not have the time to load the body into the car, drive away, dispose etc etc. So again, not having the time leads to the conclusion of a "panic situation" as, obviously, if the operation is planned, then time would have been allocated. I find it very hard not to come to the conclusion that SY think that there is a strong possibility of a "panic" scenario rather than a well planned operation.
Agreed that it was a panic scenario but you'd possibly never feel safe leaving the evidence there so I think they're working on the theory that the body was eventually transported out of PDL. More mobile tracking needs to be done if they find anything from that specific area. They just need to find later dates where it goes back to the same spot.
-
They're looking for Madeleine's body and you're wondering if a deceased black man was taking drugs there. Maybe they've been tracking his mobile phone to search in these specific areas >@@(*&) But Smithman wasn't black >@@(*&)
I'm not suggesting that Smithman was Euclides. We don't know the nationality or physical appearance of the 3 burglars he was known to associate with, so maybe one of them resembles Smithman? It's just a theory, following on from Vixie's comment re phone triangulation - the 3 or 4 of them may have been around OC & then at the scrubland doing drugs. It's not inconceivable.
-
It's not inconceivable.
I would suggest "not inconceivable" falls slightly below "a strong lead" and way below "beyond reasonable doubt"
-
I would suggest "not inconceivable" falls slightly below "a strong lead" and way below "beyond reasonable doubt"
If the police find Madeleine's remains on that scrubland, and they have phone triangulation which supports the 4 being in both locations, who, in your opinion, will they be building a case against? Or will it still be the parents, regardless?
-
If the police find Madeleine's remains on that scrubland, and they have phone triangulation which supports the 4 being in both locations, who, in your opinion, will they be building a case against? Or will it still be the parents, regardless?
Well, whoever a case is being made against, the investigation has certainly moved on dramatically
Just a few weeks ago ( and for the last seven years ) the discussion has centred on where, and to what purpose, the missing child had been spirited away by an abductor
Now here we are discussing the theories behind Madeleine's dead body having been a five minute walk from the apartment all along
The Metropolitan police have, I think, been quite subtle in bringing about this remarkable turnaround
-
Well, whoever a case is being made against, the investigation has certainly moved on dramatically
Just a few weeks ago ( and for the last seven years ) the discussion has centred on where, and to what purpose, the missing child had been spirited away by an abductor
Now here we are discussing the theories behind Madeleine's dead body having been a five minute walk from the apartment all along
The Metropolitan police have, I think, been quite subtle in bringing about this remarkable turnaround
Of course the Met are to be praised. They are actively looking for Madeline. Finding her is the aim & the key to helping unlock the puzzle. Why do the "[ censored word]" object to the Met so much?
-
Of course the Met are to be praised. They are actively looking for Madeline. Finding her is the aim & the key to helping unlock the puzzle. Why do the "[banned word]" object to the Met so much?
Who is objecting to the Met?
-
Of course the Met are to be praised. They are actively looking for Madeline. Finding her is the aim & the key to helping unlock the puzzle. Why do the "[banned word]" object to the Met so much?
Where did you see any 'objection' in my post ?
On the contrary, I think the Metropolitan police are doing a splendid job
-
Well, whoever a case is being made against, the investigation has certainly moved on dramatically
Just a few weeks ago ( and for the last seven years ) the discussion has centred on where, and to what purpose, the missing child had been spirited away by an abductor
Now here we are discussing the theories behind Madeleine's dead body having been a five minute walk from the apartment all along
The Metropolitan police have, I think, been quite subtle in bringing about this remarkable turnaround
I think its been planned for months personally all this is not going to be planned in a week. I said before that all the rubbish in the newspapers suited the police as it took stuff away from what they were doing.
So what are they doing?
They are checking scrubland most of which is rock hard anyway are they looking for a body?
When would a body be placed there is the question?
Perhaps they know what has happened but havent got the complete puzzle and are checking to eliminate rather then confirm.
Its 300 yards away from the flat. Why not just put the body in a wheelie bin and leave it there.
How could they have made a hole big enough without people noticing.
I think its more likely they want to check for clues etc BEFORE the land is bulldozed for development and any chances will be lost.
Its odd the PJ allowed them to dig around here and one other place, but refused elsewhere or did not allow permission, perhaps because they know they wont find anything.
Paul Luckman said himself (I mean the man lives there), this scrubland was searched at the time and they were looking for a live child who had wondered off so the area was checked thoroughly.
IF she is buried there then it happened later weeks later.
I think this has been going on in the back ground for months and perhaps is the final push to get closure either way. No body, no clues, well we tried.
I dont even have the energy to bother with it lol.
I hope they do find her body I truly do, then we can all get closure and move on.
-
interesting that (if photo is genuine) both from the angle and the quality etc that that is a photo that was taken with with the full co-operation of SY (looks to be on the land itself?) and also released with their permission. So an effort is being made to get "column inches" for the operation rather than just get on with it and comment later. Unless, of course, a photo journo has managed to get really close which would imply that SY are not in full control of the area. Very interested photo, thanks for posting
It could've been taken from quite some distance away with a telephoto lens. There isn't anyway to tell withoutthe exif data though.
-
Itv have said that two tents have now been erected over the hole, and officers in suits and masks have entered. I suppose the hole must be the only feature they have so far found that is of particular interest. If it was a drainage or sink hole, it might actually be quite deep.
-
You know, every time I see the goings on in that five acre piece of scrub I ponder the merits of this entire exercise. The phrase, 'too little, too late' comes to mind.
A piece of corrugated iron roofing suddenly takes on a whole new meaning yet people have been stood looking at it for seven years?
Is SY really implying that the PJ are so damn stupid that they wouldn't have checked this out already? STRUTH!
-
You know, every time I see the goings on in that five acre piece of scrub I ponder the merits of this entire exercise. The phrase, 'too little, too late' comes to mind.
Too late certainly. Too little I'm not so sure.
-
Itn are now reporting that officers in forensic suits and masks have gone into the tent covering the hole
I'm starting to get a sense of dread here
-
Itn are now reporting that officers in forensic suits and masks have gone into the tent covering the hole
I'm starting to get a sense of dread here
Probably standard procedure these days.
-
Itn are now reporting that officers in forensic suits and masks have gone into the tent covering the hole
I'm starting to get a sense of dread here
I wouldn't hold your breath. It's there so they have to check it thoroughly, that doesn't mean they will actually find anything.
-
The photo of the corrugated sheet, wood, etc
That will be an old shed / small building fallen down long ago IMO.
-
The photo of the corrugated sheet, wood, etc
That will be an old shed / small building fallen down long ago IMO.
That might well be, but it doesn't mean that the materials couldn't have been used for concealment.
-
IMO this area is mentioned in the files by two witnesses. But this analysis is based on what will appear to most to be nothing more than the mention of a hill and a sprinkle of faulty logic and so will probably be dismissed with an "oh that could be any hill, rubbish". I deduce it's likely to be the same hill. I doubt anyone will agree.
"...with a group searching ... on top of a hill"
(SOURCE: km statement 07 May)
-
That might well be, but it doesn't mean that the materials couldn't have been used for concealment.
Precisely, where there was once a small building, there may be ready made depressions in the ground, and bits of wood and roofing sheets to place over disturbed ground.
There are many derelict or fallen buildings or old foundations on scrubland around the town.
It is unlikely to find anything at the current site IMO as I do not find a realistic theory of getting anything to there.
-
(http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/351834/slide_351834_3813395_free.jpg?1401883359993)
-
Precisely, where there was once a small building, there may be ready made depressions in the ground, and bits of wood and roofing sheets to place over disturbed ground.
There are many derelict or fallen buildings or old foundations on scrubland around the town.
It is unlikely to find anything at the current site IMO as I do not find a realistic theory of getting anything to there.
I think we simply need to wait and see.
They found this site pretty quickly, so it's possible that they had pointers to it.
I see no point in rubbishing their efforts before they have completed this stage of the investigation, even though we may not hear details of anything they may find .
-
A British expat whose property overlooks the site was interviewed on Sky yesterday and he was well aware of the old tin. Apparently it covered an old disused farmers well, the perfect place to hide remains. As many posters have noted, the ground in Portugal is like concrete, very difficult to excavate even with the proper tools. A deep ready made hole in the ground would seem to be the perfect solution for someone wishing to dispose of remains, it is unlikely that the police would ever investigate it properly due to the huge costs involved. Many of these holes are also used to dispose of dead goats/sheep and just about every pet you can think of.
-
A British expat whose property overlooks the site was interviewed on Sky yesterday and he was well aware of the old tin. Apparently it covered an old disused farmers well, the perfect place to hide remains. As many poster have noted the ground in Portugal is like concrete, very difficult to excavate even with the proper tools. A ready made hole in the ground would seem to be the perfect solution.
Thanks, interesting. There are probably several old wells on the site (cabbages like a drink). And as you say, in hard ground, a ready made deep hole is an appealing prospect for anyone wishing to conceal anything. And luckily the team has two pieces of specialised equipment which are capable of checking a well, from the top.
-
Indeed. No need to be scrabbling around trying to dig a hole with bare hands.
-
Indeed. No need to be scrabbling around trying to dig a hole with bare hands.
So searching a site like this, whether to hide something, or to find where someone has hidden something, is to some extent a search for pre-made holes. The other thing that is relevant IMO is vegetation density and height. A pre-existing hole which has dense tall vegetation growing over and all around it would be the best place because there a concealor is concealed while concealing.
-
So searching a site like this, whether to hide something, or to find where someone has hidden something, is to some extent a search for pre-made holes. The other thing that is relevant IMO is vegetation density and height. A pre-existing hole which has dense tall vegetation growing over and all around it would be the best place because there a concealor is concealed while concealing.
Yes and where do you find the tallest grasses? Near a good underground water source.
-
It would have to have been findable in the first instance, so perhaps not such dense vegetation at the time of concealment - if there was any concealment, that is.
-
Any idea what the grey pegs are that have been inserted inot the ground around the hole? In anticipation of a tent to cover the area?
-
A British expat whose property overlooks the site was interviewed on Sky yesterday and he was well aware of the old tin. Apparently it covered an old disused farmers well, the perfect place to hide remains. As many posters have noted, the ground in Portugal is like concrete, very difficult to excavate even with the proper tools. A deep ready made hole in the ground would seem to be the perfect solution for someone wishing to dispose of remains, it is unlikely that the police would ever investigate it properly due to the huge costs involved. Many of these holes are also used to dispose of dead goats/sheep and just about every pet you can think of.
You would first need to know where an already made hole was located before moving the body there. So it will be interesting to see if anybody was there searching for Madeleine only hours after her disappearance >@@(*&)
-
Have the police actually commenced digging yet? If so, on what basis are they choosing where to dig? Dog alerts or ground penetrating radar devices? Does anyone know?
-
Yesterday ir was about dogs and ground clearing. Today the papers seem to have been concentrating on the hole that was found.
I'm sure they will have been doing other things as well, but it doesn't seem to have been mentioned.
edit http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/madeleine-mccann-latest-police-erect-tent-and-begin-digging-in-portugal-scrubland-search-9485195.html
-
A little too late don't you think ? This should of happened 7 years ago by the Portugal police imo..bloody wet wipes they are.. 8-)(--)
-
On the news today they were saying that the team appear to have found a shaft or a tunnel on the mound. It was under corrugated iron sheeting hidden with a covering of earth and some growth. It is quite a big hole, shaft or tunnel the reporter was saying. He thought that it was a shaft or tunnel.
Have The Romans, the Templars, or smugglers been here? All are renouned for their tunnels Might this have been the secret entrance that all castles and fortresses usually had? Did it go underground to the Fortezela? Did it have another entrance into the little beach next to the Fortezela?
The tunnel that photographs have been shown on here with the two ex commandoes emerging from?
To see the next point, you must adjust your GEarth image to the date 4/16/ 2011.
It does not show on any other images
Zoom right in.
Interestingly, if you zoom right into the coast just south of the mound, there is a tiny narrow and VERY hidden inlet filled with water at high tide. Could Madeleine have been taken out to sea via a tunnel that linked to this tiny inlet with a boat hidden there??
Have just measured the width of the inlet and as near as I can say it is 12 feet wide
I guess I am wrong but thought there might be a possiblity ... so have mentioned it for others to look at
-
What would the lighting have been like for them? Was it not very dark, or did they all have torches?
Got no idea, unfortunately and that is quite important question. Funny thing is, though, that Russell mentions the wasteland near the Baptista Supermarket, but he forgets to mention the one with the mound.
-
On the news today they were saying that the team appear to have found a shaft or a tunnel on the mound. It was under corrugated iron sheeting hidden with a covering of earth and some growth. It is quite a big hole, shaft or tunnel the reporter was saying. He thought that it was a shaft or tunnel.
Have The Romans, the Templars, or smugglers been here? All are renouned for their tunnels Might this have been the secret entrance that all castles and fortresses usually had? Did it go underground to the Fortezela? Did it have another entrance into the little beach next to the Fortezela?
The tunnel that photographs have been shown on here with the two ex commandoes emerging from?
To see the next point, you must adjust your GEarth image to the date 4/16/ 2011.
It does not show on any other images
Zoom right in.
Interestingly, if you zoom right into the coast just south of the mound, there is a tiny narrow and VERY hidden inlet filled with water at high tide. Could Madeleine have been taken out to sea via a tunnel that linked to this tiny inlet with a boat hidden there??
Yes. And the police is spending the mounds of money to dig out some tunnel that might, but might not, have been used to transport Madeleine. And they are sifting the soil looking for what? The Templar Knights gold?
-
Why shouldn't they have been? Where should they have been searching? What are you implying?
In the direction the man Jane saw carrying a child ?
They knew she'd seen him and that she already thought it was Madeleine he was carrying, and they knew he wasn't headed towards the beach
Yet that's where they all headed
-
A little too late don't you think ? This should of happened 7 years ago by the Portugal police imo..bloody wet wipes they are.. 8-)(--)
It beggars belief that proper, thorough searches were never conducted.
-
It beggars belief that proper, thorough searches were never conducted.
...........and you were there ??? >@@(*&)
-
It beggars belief that proper, thorough searches were never conducted.
Water under the bridge, as they say. Why not concentrate on the present action?
-
In the direction the man Jane saw carrying a child ?
They knew she'd seen him and that she already thought it was Madeleine he was carrying, and they knew he wasn't headed towards the beach
Yet that's where they all headed
So no one searched in the direction of Tannerman, is that what you're saying?
-
It beggars belief that proper, thorough searches were never conducted.
Why would they search the drains in 5A if Maddie was abducted by a stranger? Would any stranger feel comfortable enough to dispose of anything in the apartment where the regular check-ups on children were made? Really?
-
Water under the bridge, as they say. Why not concentrate on the present action?
I can multi-task, concentrating on present action whilst simultaneously lamenting the lack of action previously. Clever aren't I?
-
On the news today they were saying that the team appear to have found a shaft or a tunnel on the mound. It was under corrugated iron sheeting hidden with a covering of earth and some growth. It is quite a big hole, shaft or tunnel the reporter was saying. He thought that it was a shaft or tunnel.
Have The Romans, the Templars, or smugglers been here? All are renouned for their tunnels Might this have been the secret entrance that all castles and fortresses usually had? Did it go underground to the Fortezela? Did it have another entrance into the little beach next to the Fortezela?
The tunnel that photographs have been shown on here with the two ex commandoes emerging from?
To see the next point, you must adjust your GEarth image to the date 4/16/ 2011.
It does not show on any other images
Zoom right in.
Interestingly, if you zoom right into the coast just south of the mound, there is a tiny narrow and VERY hidden inlet filled with water at high tide. Could Madeleine have been taken out to sea via a tunnel that linked to this tiny inlet with a boat hidden there??
Have just measured the width of the inlet and as near as I can say it is 12 feet wide
I guess I am wrong but thought there might be a possiblity ... so have mentioned it for others to look at
Who said this hole could be a 'tunnel' ?
Except you, I mean
-
Diversion - check
Insult - check
Hole in the ground - ignored
Forensically examinining the OC drains - ignored
pj incompetence ignored for 7 years it was their job to do what SY are doing ..like I said "wet wipes"
spelling correction examinining= examining 8(0(*
-
So no one searched in the direction of Tannerman, is that what you're saying?
Well did they ?
Do any of them say, in their statements, that they went to search in the direction Tannerman was walking when Jane saw him ?
-
Well did they ?
Do any of them say, in their statements, that they went to search in the direction Tannerman was walking when Jane saw him ?
I don't know, that's why I'm asking you, you seem to be the expert in these matters.
-
Well did they ?
Do any of them say, in their statements, that they went to search in the direction Tannerman was walking when Jane saw him ?
from Russell's statement:
When Kate raised the alarm she didn’t get to the table as the area was all enclosed, she was at the start of the path she shouted across to us. We ran out through the reception we were all in a panic some people went into the flat I stayed outside, I then conducted a quick search of the immediate area with Matt, Dave and possibly Gerry. We searched a cul-de-sac area which I would describe as being a passage way at the front of the block on the car park side. We went on to search the gardens and patios. Then we went downhill towards the centre. On the second search we went to the shopping centre and then towards the tennis courts. We searched around the back of the tennis courts.
On my way back I bumped into Dave he said to me this is bad this is really bad they’ve not found her. We searched down to the beach I searched the East side, and Matt and Dave the West side. We went back to 5A it was clear that panic was setting in Gerry was on the phone to a family member back home, for someone that is such a strong character he is usually so calm, decisive, confident. He was lying on the floor in hysterics, he had a high voice crying like a baby, I didn’t know what to say.
By this time we had been joined by Ocean Club staff I am aware that Fiona and Rachael had spoken to Jane.
-
Who said this hole could be a 'tunnel' ?
Except you, I mean
It was on TV News today after lunch. Probably the 2 oclock news. Either sky or BBC.
-
Have. Have done it for Madeline. It's never, ever 'of'. Should've is an abbreviation of should have.
so you do agree its about Madeleine and the pj should "have" done more for her.. 8((()*/
-
so you do agree its about Madeleine and the pj should "have" done more for her.. 8((()*/
What more would you have liked?
-
What more would you have liked?
The list is endless!!
-
It was on TV News today after lunch. Probably the 2 oclock news. Either sky or BBC.
Sadie ..it was also said on ITV news at 6 about the tunnel ..
-
Just proves my point ..its not about finding Madeleine ..? with most on here ..you are all sitting there waiting for a body to be found like bloody grim reapers ...it sick
At this juncture everybody is 'just sitting around waiting for a body to be found' except the police persons who are doing the digging. That includes Madeleine's (note spelling, Mr Jones) family.
Waiting, expecting, anticipating. None of that equates to hoping though.
-
Wouldn't that be, like, finding her ?
I doubt they will find her in PDL ...Madeleine was long gone out the country before the GNR or PJ got off their butts ..took them something like 12 hours to check the borders into spain... utter incompetence...
-
At this juncture everybody is 'just sitting around waiting for a body to be found' except the police persons who are doing the digging. That includes Madeleine's (note spelling, Mr Jones) family.
Waiting, expecting, anticipating. None of that equates to hoping though.
Have you seen them actually dig yet ...?
-
Just seen an ITV twitter that the search time has been extended for a week.
-
Just seen an ITV twitter that the search time has been extended for a week.
The BBC have also said that permission has been given to search two further sites (not sure where yet, but presumably more scrubland).
-
Just seen an ITV twitter that the search time has been extended for a week.
The original time allowed was imo ridiculous when the area of the initial ground search was taken into consideration.
I think the Portuguese authorities must be considering and allowing requests for extensions if the request can be justified.
They are to be congratulated on their flexibility and must be as anxious as everyone else to make sure there is enough time allowed to lead to conclusive results for each area to be searched.
-
Have you seen them actually dig yet ...?
Well I've seen shovels and dust bins full of earth being removed....
I've seen officers in forensic get up go in to tents. I've seen evrd's deployed....
I can only think that they're currently looking for a body, hence I am waiting for a body to be found. I fail to understand how that is sick?
-
Sadie ..it was also said on ITV news at 6 about the tunnel ..
Cheers lizibif 8((()*/
By now they should know I am totally honest, but that doesn't go down well with some of them.
Perhaps now they will believe about the mecdia thoughts, maybe knowledge? that there is a tunnel. I thought they said something about rungs set in the wall going down, but I am not sure about that.. Maybe I glimpsed them. Was there anything about that Lizi?
-
"Meanwhile, detectives are said to be exploring the sewers of the Ocean Club ... According to Portuguese media, the British officers will lower cameras on fibre-optic cables into the pipes this afternoon in a bid to find objects that may have been abandoned at the time."
(Source: Daily Mail)
-
Well I've seen shovels and dust bins full of earth being removed....
I've seen officers in forensic get up go in to tents. I've seen evrd's deployed....
I can only think that they're currently looking for a body, hence I am waiting for a body to be found. I fail to understand how that is sick?
waiting is one thing ...hoping is another ..yes sick! although I think your wait/hope will be fruitless imo..
-
waiting is one thing ...hoping is another ..yes sick! although I think your wait/hope will be fruitless imo..
You mean you want to pass up the opportunity of the perpetrator being identified from forensics?
-
waiting is one thing ...hoping is another ..yes sick! although I think your wait/hope will be fruitless imo..
Waiting does not equate to hoping. I did explain that in an earlier post.
-
Well I've seen shovels and dust bins full of earth being removed....
I've seen officers in forensic get up go in to tents. I've seen evrd's deployed....
I cannot help thinking why this all hasn't been done 7 years ago.. Hope Amaral is watching ;)
-
I cannot help thinking why this all hasn't been done 7 years ago.. Hope Amaral is watching ;)
Oh he will have found some excuse to have failed to do it.
Such a shame , his men worked so hard.
-
I cannot help thinking why this all hasn't been done 7 years ago.. Hope Amaral is watching ;)
I believe the PJ should have levelled the whole of Portugal & removed & forensically examined roughly a 2 metre depth of soil from every square metre of the country's surface, in the search for Madeleine.
-
I cannot help thinking why this all hasn't been done 7 years ago.. Hope Amaral is watching ;)
Yes, it should've been done 7 years ago. Madeleine shouldn't have been left alone in the first place. Police shouldn't have allowed the media or family members to dictate the direction of the investigation in the form of a stated abduction and numerous sightings being broadcast.
Many things should, should not have been done. Hopefully the ones that can be rectified are now.
-
I believe the PJ should have levelled the whole of Portugal & removed & forensically examined roughly a 2 metre depth of soil from every cubic metre of the country's surface, in the search for Madeleine.
And still they wouldn't have found her as she had been wooshed out of the country, either by boat or by car and is living on a Mediterranean island, or in an Arabian palace, or some such in the lap of luxury.
-
I cannot help thinking why this all hasn't been done 7 years ago.. Hope Amaral is watching ;)
Seems to me you are criticising the National Policing Improvement Agency, it is them who advised Mr Amaral which scrubland areas to search with cadaver dogs.
The scrubland areas to be searched by cadaver dogs in 2007 were all selected by UK experts.
-
Yes, it should've been done 7 years ago. Madeleine shouldn't have been left alone in the first place. Police shouldn't have allowed the media or family members to dictate the direction of the investigation in the form of a stated abduction and numerous sightings being broadcast.
Many things should, should not have been done. Hopefully the ones that can be rectified are now.
There is many things what the PJ could of should of & would of done, in hindsight.
-
There is many things what the PJ could of should of & would of done, in hindsight.
Could off. Should off. Would off. Perleaze.
-
fibre-optic cameras in sewers at the complex, this operation has been well-planned.
-
I wonder what they think is going to be there after so many years?
-
I wonder what they think is going to be there after so many years?
SY have not said what they could possibly find, so the logical way to get some idea would be past cases and there must be many (the only one I remember was a glove)
-
Interesting, the sewer search is a surprise location, will there be more?
-
Interesting, the sewer search is a surprise location, will there be more?
What on earth could be in a sewer?
And have they found remains in the hole?
Is that why the forensic team are wearing masks - the stench of death?
Or just a pongy hole?
The fact that they are sieving the soil right now, and removing it to a tent to do so....
It's all very macabre.
-
Apparently it's not a "forensic team" but a Forensic Officer, singular.
He only came to the dig on Wednesday, two days in.
Now he is busily taking bucketfuls of soil to a white tent.
He has full forensic gear on including a mask.
Clearly he is some sort of doctor.
***********I think the sewer search indicates that some one is talking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Finally!
Thoughts?
-
I think they have received intelligence from somewhere. "What we have uncovered means that Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive". What have they uncovered? They certainly knew specifically where they wanted to dig.
-
I think they have received intelligence from somewhere. "What we have uncovered means that Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive". What have they uncovered? They certainly knew specifically where they wanted to dig.
Exactly. Maybe Silky is right and the canaries started to sing?
-
Is it possible that the intel they have received is far more precise than they wanted to admit and they have been giving the impression that its a wide search over several areas when in fact there have been one or two exact locations that the wanted to examine?
-
I think they have received intelligence from somewhere. "What we have uncovered means that Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive". What have they uncovered? They certainly knew specifically where they wanted to dig.
Yep they used helicopters to search the ground for anomolies, didn't they?
If the hole is where I think it is (and I am not sure tbh) then I can see anomolies in the ground even on GEarth.
Now what better intelligence can they have than from the special equipment on the helicopters?
Nigh Night. early rising time tomorrow
-
Searching the sewers IMHO strongly re-enforces the fact that SY are looking down the theory of a "panic" scenario. A planned operation/abduction surely would have covered the disposal of items in a more secure way and what items would these be within a planned operation? Toilets, drains etc provide a private, quick, close by and "lay mans" choice in terms of disposing of evidence. In addition, an abductor would be leaving the scene so happy to take any items with them. Toilets/drains etc literally provide a conduit to carry evidence away when you cant carry it away yourself.
-
No Sadie. My belief is that intelligence came way BEFORE any helicopters flew over these areas. How long ago did Redwood state "what we have uncovered means that Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive? Then obviously he has had to wait months for permission for the digs in PDL. There will be good reason for his choice of search areas which will have been preceded any helicopter flyovers.
-
I find it remarkable that local knowledge doesn’t seem to have been aware of the existence of this hole in the ground. Or didn't think it important enough to inform the PJ of its existence. From what we have heard it seems to be deep.
Madeleine police 'taken by surprise' by discovery
Last updated Wed 4 Jun 2014
World
Madeleine McCann
Portugal
By Martin Geissler, ITV News Correspondent
There have been a couple of developments here that have taken us and have perhaps taken the police teams by surprise.
At the very edge of the wasteland where officers are searching are a couple of white tents.
Under them is a hole.
They found it yesterday, it was covered by a couple of sheets of corrugated iron and then that was covered by some soil.
They dug away and they pulled these sheets apart yesterday and they found this very precise hole in the shape of a square - now, that's of interest to them, they didn't know it was there.
We've seen a couple of police officers in forensic suits inside those tents, we don't know what they've found, we don't know if it is of specific interest but we do know it's something they didn't anticipate when they got here.
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-06-04/madeleine-police-taken-by-surprise-by-discovery-of-hole/
-
Indeed. No need to be scrabbling around trying to dig a hole with bare hands.
Its dark the child is looking for her mum and wanders off. 300 yards is not far and if there is an old well very easy for a child to simply fall into the hole and never be seen again. Which is a scenario a few of us advocated on the Mirror forum and other sites the wandered off and fallen into a hole (sewer/roadworks), etc.
So the possibility is simple. The child could be in the hole sadly by accident.
Mind you I am amazed that intelligent people would leave a hole big deep enough to fill it with dead sheep and pets etc etc with rotten wood and corrugated metal....
-
I must admit i do find it incredible that non of the family (even close), are there in PDL. Surely the parents would want to be there every moment (like Ben Needhams mum was when they dug for his body). IF they found the child the parents would be there at the end of this journey to be with her.
No i find that very odd.
-
I have always found it odd that there has never been any public support from the remaining tapas 7. One would of thought that that fateful night back in 2007 would have bonded them all for life. They appear to have done quite the opposite and distanced themselves. I don't find the 'wandering off' scenario credible I'm afraid. As others have pointed out,Madeleine would have to opened and closed behind her a patio door and two stairgates and a set of curtains. Not very likely for a three year old child is it. Whoever removed Madeleine had a key to the apartment imo. This suggests to me an OC employee or.....
-
I must admit i do find it incredible that non of the family (even close), are there in PDL. Surely the parents would want to be there every moment (like Ben Needhams mum was when they dug for his body). IF they found the child the parents would be there at the end of this journey to be with her.
No i find that very odd.
In Ben's case police had announced what was the purpose of the digs. They thought the child could be buried in a specific area which wanted to search. In other words they had only one scenario in mind.
This is a different case. We dont know what is the exact purpose of the investigation nor how many sites they intend to search. I dont exclude the possibility that police advised mccanns not to be there.
-
In Ben's case police had announced what was the purpose of the digs. They thought the child could be buried in a specific area which wanted to search. In other words they had only one scenario in mind.
This is a different case. We dont know what is the exact purpose of the investigation nor how many sites they intend to search. I dont exclude the possibility that police advised mccanns not to be there.
The fact is that some posters would criticise the mccanns whatever. If they had turned up they would have criticised the clothes they were wearing...the expressions on their faces .the constant criticism is an absolute disgrace
-
The fact is that some posters would criticise the mccanns whatever. If they had turned up they would have criticised the clothes they were wearing...the expressions on their faces .the constant criticism is an absolute disgrace
I agree Davel - the real reason IMO some are criticising the McCanns for not going is that they have been deprived of another opportunity to do exactly what you have described.
The McCanns can get there in 3/4 hours - if necessary - so what's the problem.
-
The fact is that some posters would criticise the mccanns whatever. If they had turned up they would have criticised the clothes they were wearing...the expressions on their faces .the constant criticism is an absolute disgrace
The true disgrace and the one you can't get away from is what they did in leaving 3 children all by themselves in the unlocked apartment.
That is where the case starts..............................
-
The true disgrace and the one you can't get away from is what they did in leaving 3 children all by themselves in the unlocked apartment.
That is where the case starts..............................
Indeed, perhaps if they weren't such shit parents 7 years ago, people wouldn't be criticising them now.
But they were shit parents, that much is fact.
-
Indeed, perhaps if they weren't such shit parents 7 years ago, people wouldn't be criticising them now.
But they were shit parents, that much is fact.
This isn't helping, is it. No one is the perfect parent. We all make mistakes of some kind or another, fortunately mostly without consequence. And parenting is so often a matter of opinion. Mine own children were out on their own in the real world at an age that might shock some people. Camping in the woods and fishing for the never ending Frog's Spawn. But such a delight it was to them all. None of them came to any harm.
-
Its dark the child is looking for her mum and wanders off. 300 yards is not far and if there is an old well very easy for a child to simply fall into the hole and never be seen again. Which is a scenario a few of us advocated on the Mirror forum and other sites the wandered off and fallen into a hole (sewer/roadworks), etc.
So the possibility is simple. The child could be in the hole sadly by accident.
Mind you I am amazed that intelligent people would leave a hole big deep enough to fill it with dead sheep and pets etc etc with rotten wood and corrugated metal....
It's rough ground though and it was dark.
A wandering child is more likely to head towards lights and to more even ground. IMO
Added - IIRC her footwear was left in the apartment, so she would have done all this barefoot.
-
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Snip
Portuguese newspapers reported on Thursday that this site was a disused storage box where children used to play. The shaft, measuring around 5ft by 3ft (150cm by 90cm), was covered by mounds of earth and a corrugated iron sheet, which is thought to have concealed the hole for years.
Snip
Under the headline "False grave deceives geo-radar", the newspaper Correia da Manhã reported that a site "with characteristics similar to a grave" was discovered but officers later concluded that it was "not compatible with that of a body".
Snip
Detectives will on Thursday examine the sewerage system below the hilly scrubland using micro-cameras and fibre-optic cables, according to Correia da Manhã.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/05/madeleine-mccann-police-fourth-day-praia-da-luz-scrubland
-
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Snip
Portuguese newspapers reported on Thursday that this site was a disused storage box where children used to play. The shaft, measuring around 5ft by 3ft (150cm by 90cm), was covered by mounds of earth and a corrugated iron sheet, which is thought to have concealed the hole for years.
Snip
Under the headline "False grave deceives geo-radar", the newspaper Correia da Manhã reported that a site "with characteristics similar to a grave" was discovered but officers later concluded that it was "not compatible with that of a body".
Snip
Detectives will on Thursday examine the sewerage system below the hilly scrubland using micro-cameras and fibre-optic cables, according to Correia da Manhã.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/05/madeleine-mccann-police-fourth-day-praia-da-luz-scrubland
Yes, an interesting article, and one that shows, once again, that far from the police having specific intelligence pointing them to a particular spot, they are in fact conducting a more general search.
-
According to Josh Halliday on twitter, they have prised open a manhole cover and fed cameras/fibre optics down there. I originally thought the sewer system they wanted to look at ran through the whole village, but it appears they are just looking at a construction beneath the surface of the scrubland.
-
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpYOk-1IQAAvK7C.jpg)
-
I was appalled by them leaving them in PDL to go to various religous shrines, the Vatican and what have you and I would be equally appalled now if they either took the twins out of school or left them at home to go to PDL without any firm idea of when or indeed if anything was going to come of this dig.
On this occasion, I think I'd have made the same decision. It's better for the twins to keep things as normal as possible.
-
I was appalled by them leaving them in PDL to go to various religious shrines, the Vatican and what have you and I would be equally appalled now if they either took the twins out of school or left them at home to go to PDL without any firm idea of when or indeed if anything was going to come of this dig.
On this occasion, I think I'd have made the same decision. It's better for the twins to keep things as normal as possible.
If not them then a member of their family perhaps? I dont know i find it odd, even my husband who doesnt care a hoot about any of this said he would have gone to PDL.
I mean the assumption is SY and PJ are looking for her body. They are not digging for treasure. What happened if they found her say 2 days ago?
No sorry on this one, I think i would have wanted to be there just in case. It was only for 7 days originally. There are 2 in the relationship so GM could have attended.
I believe on occasions mrs mcann is going around touring though isnt she with her new job as child protector or whatever she is so surely must have left the twins on occasions with nanny or someone else.
Nope i am not going to apologise for thinking this, but i would want to be there just in case they found something.
I would want to be there at the end. Its the catholic in me. I would want to be close to my daughter if they found her body if there was a remote chance they would find her body.
Everyone is saying the SY and PJ must have some reason to be digging perhaps intelligence etc, so we have to assume the exercise is not for SY to have 2 weeks in PDL and have a jolly but to seriously find her body.
8(8-))
-
I have always found it odd that there has never been any public support from the remaining tapas 7. One would of thought that that fateful night back in 2007 would have bonded them all for life. They appear to have done quite the opposite and distanced themselves. I don't find the 'wandering off' scenario credible I'm afraid. As others have pointed out,Madeleine would have to opened and closed behind her a patio door and two stairgates and a set of curtains. Not very likely for a three year old child is it. Whoever removed Madeleine had a key to the apartment imo. This suggests to me an OC employee or.....
I don't hold with the woke and wandered theory since children of that age are not in the habit of closing doors and gates behind them. Had she gone out the front door it would have been found open. That aside, the discovery of an open window and raised shutter would seem to rule the woke and wandered theory unlikely.
-
Seriously if it was your daughter...
The pictures of those guys crawling around some dank hole on your and your baby's behalf...
I would feel OBLIGED to be there, to offer thanks if nothing else.
-
It's like most events in this case, surreal bordering on the bizarre.
-
I don't hold with the woke and wandered theory since children of that age are not in the habit of closing doors and gates behind them. Had she gone out the front door it would have been found open. That aside, the discovery of an open window and raised shutter would seem to rule the woke and wandered theory unlikely.
I agree with you John...that leaves parental involvement or abduction as the only two reasonable possibilities.So either the parents did it or she was abducted,,,SY have looked at the parents and realised abduction is the only possibility...imo
-
I agree with you John...that leaves parental involvement or abduction as the only two reasonable possibilities.So either the parents did it or she was abducted,,,SY have looked at the parents and realised abduction is the only possibility...imo
Who said parental involvement ?
The basic hypothesis is that Madeleine suffered an accident from which she didn't recover.
-
The word "murder" has been used about four times too many, for me to think this was an accident.
-
Madeleine McCann parents encouraged by progress made by police in Portugal
Kate and Gerry McCann break silence to urge people to 'refrain from spreading rumours'
Share
Tweet this
inShare0
Email
Josh Halliday in Praia da Luz
The Guardian, Thursday 5 June 2014 22.39 BST
Kate (L) and Gerry McCann (R)
Kate and Gerry McCann holding an age-progressed police image of their daughter Madeleine in 2012. Photograph: Facundo Arrizabalaga/EPA
The parents of Madeleine McCann have said they are "encouraged" by the progress made by detectives searching scrubland near the Portuguese holiday resort where the girl went missing seven years ago.
Kate and Gerry McCann, who have not travelled to Portugal, urged people to "refrain from spreading rumours" as they broke their silence on the latest police operation.
As detectives began searching the underground sewerage network in Praia da Luz, the McCanns responded on Facebook.
"We would like to ask people to refrain from spreading rumours and speculation based on inaccurate press reporting," they wrote.
"We are kept updated on the ongoing work in Portugal and are encouraged by the progress.
"Thank you for continuing to stand by us and supporting our efforts to get Madeleine home."
Madeleine McCann went missing in May 2007, aged three.
An administrator for the Official Find Madeleine Facebook page later said the girl's parents, from Rothley in Leicestershire, had been asked not to visit Praia da Luz while the search is under way.
A post on the page said: "To those commenting on why Gerry and Kate are not in Portugal, it's because they were asked to not go there. Please let the police do their job.
"And anyone posting their sanctimonious comments about leaving children alone will be banned. No questions asked. We've heard it all before. ENOUGH with the judging."
The McCanns' statement came at the end of the a fifth day of searches in a six-hectare (15-acre) spread of dense scrubland, where officers on Thursday prised open manholes and inspected sewer pipes using micro cameras and fibre optic cables.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/05/madeleine-mcann-parents-encouraged-by-progress
-
Madeleine McCann parents encouraged by progress made by police in Portugal
Kate and Gerry McCann break silence to urge people to 'refrain from spreading rumours'
Share
Tweet this
inShare0
Email
Josh Halliday in Praia da Luz
The Guardian, Thursday 5 June 2014 22.39 BST
Kate (L) and Gerry McCann (R)
Kate and Gerry McCann holding an age-progressed police image of their daughter Madeleine in 2012. Photograph: Facundo Arrizabalaga/EPA
The parents of Madeleine McCann have said they are "encouraged" by the progress made by detectives searching scrubland near the Portuguese holiday resort where the girl went missing seven years ago.
Kate and Gerry McCann, who have not travelled to Portugal, urged people to "refrain from spreading rumours" as they broke their silence on the latest police operation.
As detectives began searching the underground sewerage network in Praia da Luz, the McCanns responded on Facebook.
"We would like to ask people to refrain from spreading rumours and speculation based on inaccurate press reporting," they wrote.
"We are kept updated on the ongoing work in Portugal and are encouraged by the progress.
"Thank you for continuing to stand by us and supporting our efforts to get Madeleine home."
Madeleine McCann went missing in May 2007, aged three.
An administrator for the Official Find Madeleine Facebook page later said the girl's parents, from Rothley in Leicestershire, had been asked not to visit Praia da Luz while the search is under way.
A post on the page said: "To those commenting on why Gerry and Kate are not in Portugal, it's because they were asked to not go there. Please let the police do their job.
"And anyone posting their sanctimonious comments about leaving children alone will be banned. No questions asked. We've heard it all before. ENOUGH with the judging."
The McCanns' statement came at the end of the a fifth day of searches in a six-hectare (15-acre) spread of dense scrubland, where officers on Thursday prised open manholes and inspected sewer pipes using micro cameras and fibre optic cables.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/05/madeleine-mcann-parents-encouraged-by-progress
"And anyone posting their sanctimonious comments about leaving children alone will be banned. No questions asked. We've heard it all before. ENOUGH with the judging."
It really was some seriously shit parenting though wasn't it.
-
If not them then a member of their family perhaps? I dont know i find it odd, even my husband who doesnt care a hoot about any of this said he would have gone to PDL.
I mean the assumption is SY and PJ are looking for her body. They are not digging for treasure. What happened if they found her say 2 days ago?
No sorry on this one, I think i would have wanted to be there just in case. It was only for 7 days originally. There are 2 in the relationship so GM could have attended.
I believe on occasions mrs mcann is going around touring though isnt she with her new job as child protector or whatever she is so surely must have left the twins on occasions with nanny or someone else.
Nope i am not going to apologise for thinking this, but i would want to be there just in case they found something.
I would want to be there at the end. Its the catholic in me. I would want to be close to my daughter if they found her body if there was a remote chance they would find her body.
Everyone is saying the SY and PJ must have some reason to be digging perhaps intelligence etc, so we have to assume the exercise is not for SY to have 2 weeks in PDL and have a jolly but to seriously find her body.
8(8-))
I see your point. I've just read the rest of the thread and see that the Mccanns were asked not to attend PDL during the dig, so the decision was taken out of their hands.
That was probably a kindness.
-
Hi Cariad, is it known who supposedly asked them not to attend ?
I'm assuming that it was SY. There doesn't seem to be anything other than their own statement to go by though.
-
I see your point. I've just read the rest of the thread and see that the Mccanns were asked not to attend PDL during the dig, so the decision was taken out of their hands.
That was probably a kindness.
It was also probably to make sure there wasn't a media frenzy - which would have happened if the McCanns had been there . Having asked for press restraint it would have been counter-productive for them to actively give the press an excuse to do the opposite.
They can be there in 3/4 hours anyway if required.
-
Looking at the photos in PDL makes me proud of the Met. Hard working! High standard! Well done to these guys.. and thanks for showing to the world what the proper policing looks like..
I feel sad Madeleine did not get a chance of these policemen 7 years ago.
Her poor parents deserve to know what happened to their daughter despite all obstacles..
-
Now that would be quite self-serving wouldn't it, so no reference as to who requested they stay away other than their own statement, very interesting indeed !
I detect another stick to beat the McCanns with being fashioned as we speak.
The were asked not to go. Get over it.
-
"We are kept updated on the ongoing work in Portugal and are encouraged by the progress.
8-)(--)
What progress.
It would appear they are simply digging up scrubland because some British women reckoned she saw a drug trafficker (portugese) carrying a child towards the waste land. She rang CW.
I mean really.
Give me a break.
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2014/06/phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers.html
So she saw someone with a dead child, and the bloke forgot to bring his shovel and spade and oh yeh pnumatic drill and must have gone running back the other way still carrying said dead body.
This is worse script then a carry on film.....
-
8-)(--)
What progress.
It would appear they are simply digging up scrubland because some British women reckoned she saw a drug trafficker (portugese) carrying a child towards the waste land. She rang CW.
I mean really.
Give me a break.
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2014/06/phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers.html
So she saw someone with a dead child, and the bloke forgot to bring his shovel and spade and oh yeh pnumatic drill and must have gone running back the other way still carrying said dead body.
This is worse script then a carry on film.....
@)(++(* Well the press will believe it.
-
Still no source provided for the person / organisation who requested the McCann's stay away from PdL during the search !
Apart from the McCann's themselves through their released statement, interesting !
Could it have been their lawyers, perhaps ?
-
I don't wish to speculate Icabod, suffice if to say, the McCann's have spoken ergo it must be true !
It kind of smacks of cult worship !
If they'd shown their faces there, especially with all the media presence, what do you think the PJ would have done? They'd have halted proceedings, wouldn't they, & then you'd be accusing the parents of "ignoring advice" not requesting the identity of the body which gave the advice.
-
Why would the PJ halt proceedings ?
This is the link
http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/may/09/madeleinemccann-national-newspapers
And this is the relevant paragraph
This came the day after the Metropolitan police assistant commissioner, Mark Rowley, sent a letter to editors appealing for restraint because of the potential for the Portuguese to halt the investigation.
Rowley explained that the British police were operating under Portuguese law and his opposite number in Portugal, in the policia judiciaria, did not intend – as had been the Met's practice – to brief the media on the search.
He said that the Portuguese police chief had been clear "that if we provide any briefings or information on the work they are undertaking on our behalf, or if reporters cause any disruption to their work in Portugal, activity will cease".
It would mean that Scotland Yard detectives would be unable to excavate sites around the resort of Praia da Luz where the then three-year-old Madeleine went missing on 3 May 2007.
-
This is the link
http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/may/09/madeleinemccann-national-newspapers
And this is the relevant paragraph
This came the day after the Metropolitan police assistant commissioner, Mark Rowley, sent a letter to editors appealing for restraint because of the potential for the Portuguese to halt the investigation.
Rowley explained that the British police were operating under Portuguese law and his opposite number in Portugal, in the policia judiciaria, did not intend – as had been the Met's practice – to brief the media on the search.
He said that the Portuguese police chief had been clear "that if we provide any briefings or information on the work they are undertaking on our behalf, or if reporters cause any disruption to their work in Portugal, activity will cease".
It would mean that Scotland Yard detectives would be unable to excavate sites around the resort of Praia da Luz where the then three-year-old Madeleine went missing on 3 May 2007.
And the only possible way of the McCanns presence in Praia is them going to the excavation area with the swarm of the reporters in tow? Reeeallly?
-
As it happens there was someone (who was nothing to do with the disappearance BTW) on top of that hill that night from about 2100 onwards until next morning (the mound where SY are now searching IMO). I gave one of the sources from the files already, and it's not difficult to find the other. During the night was told about the disappearance by a group of searchers including nannies. (Yes people did search this area). Vehicle searched there by GNR next morning. Was checked out and eliminated from enquiry. All just IMO and I might be wrong.
-
And the only possible way of the McCanns presence in Praia is them going to the excavation area with the swarm of the reporters in tow? Reeeallly?
If the Portuguese carry out their threat, at least the parents can't be blamed this time. It's a shame that puts certain posters noses out of joint.
-
They could attend the digs to say "thank you".
They could attend the digs to say "we are supporting this effort".
They could attend the digs so that they don't have to hear via telephone that they've found Madeleine.
-
They could attend the digs to say "thank you".
They could attend the digs to say "we are supporting this effort".
They could attend the digs so that they don't have to hear via telephone that they've found Madeleine.
Better still, they stay out the way, let the police do their job, thank them all when this phase has been completed & only fly over if it is absolutely necessary. Any forensic tests may take several weeks to complete.
-
As it happens there was someone (who was nothing to do with the disappearance BTW) on top of that hill that night from about 2100 onwards until next morning (the mound where SY are now searching IMO). I gave one of the sources from the files already, and it's not difficult to find the other. During the night was told about the disappearance by a group of searchers including nannies. (Yes people did search this area). Vehicle searched there by GNR next morning. Was checked out and eliminated from enquiry. All just IMO and I might be wrong.
This area could well have been used as a temporary hiding place as it is not far from the Smith sighting. If the GNR searched the following day they probably missed Madeleine by a matter of hours.
-
Snip
Madeleine Police Identify New Search Area
Officers identify a new site to dig as relatives of Ben Needham, who disappeared aged 21 months, express sympathy for the McCanns.
By Tom Parmenter, Sky News Correspondent
The renewed search for clues into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann is to move to a new area outside of Praia Da Luz, Sky News has learned.
Portuguese police have told Sky News a new dig will begin on land somewhere between Praia Da Luz and the town of Lagos on Wednesday.
The development comes as search teams appear to have discounted parts of the site in Praia Da Luz where digging has been taking place all week.
http://news.sky.com/story/1277277/madeleine-police-identify-new-search-area
-
"Portuguese police have told Sky News a new dig will begin on land somewhere between Praia Da Luz and the town of Lagos on Wednesday."
http://news.sky.com/story/1277277/madeleine-police-identify-new-search-area
Thanks Brietta, very interesting, I have a good guess which area between PDL and Lagos this is.
-
Well? (I might have the wrong one)
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=praia+da+luz&ll=37.097838,-8.718483&spn=0.000657,0.001234&channel=fs&oe=utf-8&gl=uk&hnear=Luz,+Portugal&t=h&z=20
-
Ruined farmhouse?
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=praia+da+luz&ll=37.095911,-8.719929&spn=0.000657,0.001234&channel=fs&oe=utf-8&gl=uk&hnear=Luz,+Portugal&t=h&z=20
-
Water Treatment Substation?
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=praia+da+luz&ll=37.094996,-8.722336&spn=0.000657,0.001234&channel=fs&oe=utf-8&gl=uk&hnear=Luz,+Portugal&t=h&layer=c&cbll=37.094996,-8.722336&panoid=OYzZR3qe6l16u4bQmCjiTQ&cbp=12,120.63,,0,7.02&z=20
-
Re the search area started last week, there was someone spending all night in vehicle on top of hill IMO, was checked out thoroughly at the time and found to be absolutely nothing to do with it, I already gave one of the links in the files. Am surprised peeps watched and debated the searches of that area without realising this.
-
Interview with G. Amaral
"Anchor: Concerning the outcome of searches to find traces of Madeleine McCann, the results are not very encouraging. Animal bones, one sock from a man, two cannabis plants were found and many soil samples were collected. In Praia da Luz, few believe in the success of this mega operation by the English police.
Voiceover: The mega search operation took a long time to be authorised, but when the English police received a green light from the Public Ministry of Portimão, it moved into Praia da Luz. The first location of the police action was an extensive terrain near the sea. Sniffer dogs went into action, as well as geo-radars, archaeologists and forensic geologists. Around 30 members of the English team, plus 15 from the Polícia Judiciária. Forest sappers, GNR military, 24 hours a day. The only thing missing was the backhoe. Excavations were made with pickaxes and shovels, at various locations of the terrain, but one week later, results were not as expected.
Rui Pando Gomes: This is one of the spots where the English police excavated, everyone had access to the spot and was able to watch the digging. The geo-radar detected a potential grave, but in the end, what was found was a stone.
Voiceover: In Praia da Luz, few believe in the success of this mega operation and even less in the thesis that is presented by the English police, that suspects that the child was taken from home by three burglars.
Bystander 1: It has no logic. What thief goes to burglarise a house, takes a child, kills her, carries her in his arms, in everyone’s sight, walking down the street, and comes to bury her here, on a terrain that is made only of stones? That is crazy! That’s all I have to say.
Voiceover: These searches are being seen by residents and tourists as one big police movie.
Bystander 2: A movie. A movie, maybe. I don’t know if this is, as we say, for the English to see. I am a bit suspicious that this is going to result in nothing.
Bystander 1: I think that they won’t find anything here. Animal bones, maybe, but otherwise…
Voiceover: And in the middle of this movie, some risk a possible scenario with different actors.
Bystander 2: The Smith couple saw him on that street, he turned the corner and could have hidden the body in the garden of that abandoned house. Then, at 6 o’clock – may I say this? – the couple came, when everybody had gone, picked up the body and came to hide it here. It is possible.
Voiceover: Despite the Portuguese authorities assuring that all expenses are being borne by the British, some have doubts about who is actually paying the Portuguese forces that stopped doing their job to be in Praia da Luz.
Bystander 1: I would like to ask that from the big ones, to find out who is paying the gentlemen from the GNR that are doing services here every four hours.
Rui Pando Gomes: … and the forest sappers…
Bystander 1: Exactly. To all of them that are here, because they say it’s the English that pay, but I don’t see the English paying.
Voiceover: After a week of searches, the collected residues are kept in boxes. A man’s sock, animal bones, two cannabis plants, soil samples and a lot of rocks. Indications that will be used to sustain the thesis of the investigators, that say that Maddie is dead and passed through this terrain. Or simply to widen the mystery of the disappearance of this English child.
Rui Pando Gomes: In this mega search operation, many means have been used. From the GNR, 40 officers were on location ensuring the safety of this operation, 40 members of the English police and of the Polícia Judiciária were involved in the searches, geo-radars were used, sniffer dogs, forest sappers were on location, and many people fought for this operation to be successful. Nevertheless, the evidence is scarce, the indicia found are very few, the final results are inconclusive.
Anchor: This is exactly why we speak with Gonçalo Amaral, former Polícia Judiciária inspector. He followed this investigation in the early days. Good evening, thank you for being here.
Gonçalo Amaral: Thank you.
Anchor: How do you see the movie of the searches this week?
Gonçalo Amaral: That is exactly it, it’s a movie. There are British journalists who speak of a farce, something staged for the media, and maybe it's nothing more than that. What is dangerous and serious is this attempt to find a new thesis, a so-called new theory about someone who goes to commit a theft and is scared by a three-year-old child and kills her and takes her out of there, I think it's convoluted.
But it’s nothing new. I remember that within the investigation, back then, and I recall that I spent six months in that investigation, not seven years, or three or four, like Scotland Yard – during that time, there was this thesis, too. And it happens that it was brought forward by a colleague who was a member of British Police, of Scotland Yard. He was the only member of Scotland Yard who was present in that work group of the Polícia Judiciária and the British police, he was Scotland Yard.
And when he advanced that hypothesis, it was discussed and completely set aside because it made no sense. Now they even added a bit more spice, to spice it up, that they are traffickers, that apart from trafficking, one day they thought of breaking into a house. Nobody proves that house was broken into, that there was a theft, there are no traces of a break-in.
Anchor: There are these traces, Gonçalo, of banking statements –
Gonçalo Amaral: What banking statements? Those found on the road, rubbish? We are speaking about rubbish that is being found, and nothing is being related with. The banking statements don’t belong to the McCanns, they weren’t taken from inside the house. Nothing was taken from that house. From that house, the only “thing” which is not a thing, it’s a person, that is missing is Madeleine McCann. There is not a television, a photo camera missing, nothing, no money is missing, and there are no traces of a break-in. Therefore, there was no burglary there. There was no assault on that house.
So now this theory is another show, a farce like the papers and some British journalists say, and that is all that it is.
Anchor: And who is writing this farce’s plot?
Gonçalo Amaral: It’s Scotland Yard that is writing. They have a certain difficulty to end the investigations, they are getting to the point of saying that she is dead, they will reach the point of saying that the cadaver can’t be found, and that the case can’t be solved.
Anchor: They are being pressured by the government, by the McCann family, by whom?
Gonçalo Amaral: By time. By time and by the money that they have spent already, which is a lot. I remind you that this is a special group that has been on this investigation for a long time and that this has already cost the British public coffers thousands of pounds. And now it also costs ours, we saw some people mentioning that, what is being spent in terms of the Portuguese police, which is surely not being paid by the British.
Anchor: I understand that in your opinion, this is a diversion manoeuvre, but what is the purpose?
Gonçalo Amaral: It’s not a diversion manoeuvre, it’s a way of making forget what exists. If you notice, while we are engrossed in the searches, that are even performed on the limit of the grounds for the press, for the television cameras to film, the grounds are huge but it’s on the border, close by – nobody is discussing the case files, nobody is discussing the indicia.
And returning to the indicia, there is one that is proved and is included in the report that the Portuguese police wrote in September, after the disappearance, at that time, and which is the simulation of an abduction. So there is the simulation of an abduction, I ask: if these burglars are so intelligent, so intelligent that “let’s take away the child that is dead, that died of fright or that we killed, and that cannot appear because a homicide is different from a theft, there is no trace of theft, and on top of that we simulate the abduction”. Notice that is the story of the open window, everything is open as if the child had been taken through there.
And in fact these have to very intelligent burglars. Then, they seem to lose their intelligence, because all of a sudden, they apparently went there on foot, it is said that they are three but only one was seen carrying the child in that area, into the direction of those grounds, leaves a body near the location of the disappearance – this not intelligence anymore. The intelligence seems to have stopped at that moment. But well, they say that there are phone calls that place them there… there is no substance, there is nothing there to give this thesis credibility.
Anchor: But how do these eight suspects appear, and with the intention of questioning three of them?
Gonçalo Amaral: They appear because all that it takes is to go to the list of phone calls made in that location, during one or two days, or on that night, and check who has a criminal record. And these are traffickers. And then there is a jump. Traffickers are also burglars, they also break into houses, so it goes. Anyone who says that doesn’t know what drugs trafficking is, or at least drugs trafficking in the Algarve and the means that it implicates and the people that are behind it. Or we are talking about the trafficker that consumes, who is stealing to buy drugs and to sell some drugs.
Then they say “we found two cannabis plants in the middle of the field”. This is where the drugs were kept. This is madness. These are completely mad people. If they moved further up, they would not find a few plants, there are hundreds of cannabis plants in that area, because some foreigners, people who live there, love the plant and they have huge plantations in that area.
But that does not represent the traffic, the trafficker in the Algarve. The trafficker in the Algarve, the one that dedicates himself to the traffic, in terms of a relation with Morocco, with other countries, the organized traffic, who has some power, and that was also discussed here at the beginning – he even had a motorboat standing by at the beach and took the child away and so on – those are not going to burglarize houses and even less are they scared by three-year-old children.
Anchor: Gonçalo Amaral, is there any cause-effect relation between the fact that these searches, these excavations started shortly after Madeleine McCann was officially declared dead by British authorities?
Gonçalo Amaral: That death declaration, a declaration in terms of, a civil death, which is a mechanism that we also have in Portugal, when someone disappears, I think it Portugal it’s after five years –
Anchor: But these excavations come afterwards, not before…
Gonçalo Amaral: This had been discussed earlier on, it’s just that now there was authorisation for this type of excavations. Searches and excavations in locations that had been subject to searches and excavations already, seven years ago. We were there. It’s like raining on a wet spot. Well, it may be that they have another type of information, more credible, but let’s see it. If they have something more concrete, then they should go there directly. They could have gone there on the first day. There is no need for this mise-en-scène to get to a certain point.
I think that they do not possess that information and I even have doubts, in case Madeleine McCann is dead, if the body exists.
Anchor: Gonçalo, I’m going to ask you to stay with us for a little longer. We’re going to take a look at more developments of this story, as today the investigators dug again near a hiding place that had been searched before, and like earlier the CMTV reporter said, tomorrow the first phase of the work is closed and the searches will be resumed on Wednesday, at other locations in the surroundings of Praia da Luz.
Voiceover: The battalion of policemen and forensic experts had an early start on the sixth consecutive day of searches. The chief of operations, Andy Redwood, insisted on taking all of his notes and documents along to the terrain, at a time when the end of the first search phase comes near its end.
In a race against time, the English police used probes again to analyse the subsoil in an area very close to the Rua 25 de Abril, and a few metres away from several apartment blocks. The last areas that the investigators believe were moved and may contain some leads about Maddie are being analysed. On the sixth day of searches, some tiredness could be seen in the faces of some of the members of the English police, disguised with a few smiles.
The cameras were always very close, following the work in detail. The operations went on, and not even a collection of old bottles that was recovered near an improvised building escaped the investigators. A little vegetable garden was also checked and a lot of shrubbery was thoroughly searched. Then, they took their pickaxes again, and their shovels, and excavated. Plastics and other buried objects led the forensics experts back to the spot in the area where earlier a hiding place had been discovered.
Rui Pando Gomes: On the sixth day, the English investigators bet everything on an area where they had earlier found a hiding place that was covered with a zinc plate. In this area, this first phase of searches will end on Sunday. The next two grounds will be subject to excavations on Wednesday and Thursday.
Anchor: Our guest Gonçalo Amaral already had the opportunity to say that in his opinion, all of this is a farce, but Gonçalo, so much time later, they are looking for a body, and that had not happened before.
Gonçalo Amaral: Well, I heard an earlier version where they were digging but still maintained the hope that she is alive, so they are looking for a hole where the child is living, so there is some confusion here, also from the British police. But in fact the theory that the child is dead and that it died that night in that apartment exists since that time, since September of 2007, and it was a conviction both from the Portuguese police and the British police that worked on the case. So it’s not something new.
Now what is being done is to go to everything that is in the process, and try to do it again; they did a reconstitution with actors in order to say that the parents were not suspects, they have e-fits of the person that took the child that night, at 10 p.m. and walked toward this area where these searches are taking place, that happens to be recognised by the Smith family, witnesses, as being the child’s father, Gerald McCann, so this is an attempt to question the conclusions of that report that is in the case files, forgetting about the indicia that exist there, and creating this ghost that there were some rogues, drug traffickers, big drug traffickers who one day decided to carry out a burglary, which even didn’t go very well, and who were scared of a three-year-old child, and even simulated an abduction, took the body away and buried it close to home.
Just let me say this: The question of missing children, and it would be good if the British police or the Portuguese police would say it, when these cases happen, when a three-year-old child, who is in someone’s care, in this case in her parents’ care, disappears from that location, the place where the body will be placed will depend on two important factors. One is the knowledge of the terrain, what do those people know. And the other one is the means, the ability to move, to have a means of transportation that can carry the body further away.
When a body is searched, just like the British police is doing, close to the apartment, then they have no doubts that the person that removed the body and placed it there did not know the terrain and had no means of transportation to take it out of there. Whom does this lead to? It doesn’t lead to any burglars. It leads to those that were responsible to care for the child. This is in the books – books that everyone has read. And maybe because everyone read them, the body does not appear in that area.
Anchor: Then there is a declaration from Gerry and Kate, in the middle of this week, that thank the authorities for the support and for their ongoing efforts to bring Madeleine home. This is the expression.
Gonçalo Amaral: There are other expressions. Mr Gerald McCann said, a few years ago, two or three years ago, I can’t remember, “if she is dead then show us the body”. He will know why he says “show us the body”. There are other elements that point towards the fact that no body exists. Those elements should be taken into account. Those that are in the investigation should think how a body could disappear, how it is possible for this body to disappear under those circumstances.
Anchor: Gonçalo Amaral, let me ask a final question for a quick reply. Will we ever find out what really happened that night?
Gonçalo Amaral: Yes, we will. When MI5 opens the case files, we will find out. Don’t forget that the British secret services followed the case right from the beginning. On location.
Anchor: So only in ten, twenty years…?
Gonçalo Amaral: I don’t know if that information will be made available, but if it’s like in the United States, it takes years to have access to that kind of confidential information. I’ll just tell you this. I recall that – this is not conspiracy theory. The searches that we made with Eddie, with Keela, with the British police, with the planning that is being carried out now, with the British forensics experts, and everything else, there was one person that was responsible for those searches, a British citizen.
And at the end of those searches, at the end of that result, he returns to England, and he’s at the airport in Faro, waiting for the plane to return to England, and he receives a phone call. He is accompanied by one of our colleagues. And he then explains to our colleague that there was a member of the MI5 at the airport, waiting for him, to talk with him about the result of the investigation.
Therefore, we are not making anything up. Everything has been made up. And someone has the information, so make the information available. From satellites, from the secret services, from wherever.
Anchor: Gonçalo Amaral, good evening and thank you for being here tonight."
-
Interesting that there seems to be a misunderstanding about Madeleine's status after being missing for seven years ... she has not been declared dead.
-
Interesting that there seems to be a misunderstanding about Madeleine's status after being missing for seven years ... she has not been declared dead.
I noticed that as well. The anchor stated it as a fact and Amaral didn't correct the anchor.
-
Gonçalo Amaral: Well, I heard an earlier version where they were digging but still maintained the hope that she is alive, so they are looking for a hole where the child is living, so there is some confusion here, also from the British police.
It doesn't seem as if he's very familiar with the concept of eliminating potential leads...
-
Interesting that there seems to be a misunderstanding about Madeleine's status after being missing for seven years ... she has not been declared dead.
I would be amazed if Ben Needham, who has been missing much longer than Madeleine, has been declared dead by Kerry ...
-
Gonçalo Amaral: There are other expressions. Mr Gerald McCann said, a few years ago, two or three years ago, I can’t remember, “if she is dead then show us the body”. He will know why he says “show us the body”.
Where and when did Gerry allegedly say this?
-
... They have e-fits of the person that took the child that night, at 10 p.m. and walked toward this area where these searches are taking place, that happens to be recognised by the Smith family, witnesses, as being the child’s father, Gerald McCann, so this is an attempt to question the conclusions of that report that is in the case files...
He apparently still hasn't found time to read the PJ files...
-
Gonçalo Amaral: There are other expressions. Mr Gerald McCann said, a few years ago, two or three years ago, I can’t remember, “if she is dead then show us the body”. He will know why he says “show us the body”.
Where and when did Gerry allegedly say this?

I assume he this is in reference to the comment
FIND THE BODY AND PROVE WE KILLED HER
MISSING: Madeleine McCann
Thursday September 13,2007
By Padraic Flanagan in Praia da Luz Have your say(24)
THE parents of missing Madeleine McCann yesterday challenged the police: “Find the body and prove we killed her.”
The couple, who are suspected over the child’s death and the disposal of her body, issued the startling ultimatum as the public prosecutor in Portugal sent the police case against them to a judge.
It is thought that the McCanns’ high-powered lawyers have told them that without a body it will be extremely difficult for the authorities to press charges.
Where is the evidence that Madeleine is dead
http://themaddiecasefiles.com//post3236.html#p3236
-
Evidence she is dead = Eddie
Evidence she is dead = DNA in alert sites
Evidence she is dead = SY digging in PDL for her little body
Don't confuse evidence with proof.....!
-
Evidence she is dead = Eddie
Evidence she is dead = DNA in alert sites
Evidence she is dead = SY digging in PDL for her little body
Don't confuse evidence with proof.....!
None of this is true.
Eddie provided no evidence she is dead.
There were no DNA proofs Madeleine died.
-
None of this is true.
Eddie provided no evidence she is dead.
There were no DNA proofs Madeleine died.
are you saying SY are digging in Pdl because they believe she is alive?
-
are you saying SY are digging in Pdl because they believe she is alive?
In modern policing there is no what 'they believe'.. they have to follow procedures and check up everything on their list.
IMO they work using the methods of elimination.
-
In modern policing there is no what 'they believe'.. they have to follow procedures and check up everything on their list.
IMO they work using the methods of elimination.
Except that finding nothing will eliminate nothing
-
Except that finding nothing will eliminate nothing
Why not? Eliminating reasons to believe that something of interest could have been found there is eliminating something, isn't it?
-
Why not? Eliminating reasons to believe that something of interest could have been found there is eliminating something, isn't it?
Not really, as what they are looking for might be just over there - 50 yards beyond where they have searched.
It's rather like that boy on the Yorkshire Moors. Police believe he's out there, but every attempt to find him has failed, but that doesn't mean he's alive and well.
-
Why not? Eliminating reasons to believe that something of interest could have been found there is eliminating something, isn't it?
That reminds me of an expression from one of the Clouseau films..............
'I believe everything and I believe nothing. I suspect everyone and I suspect no-one.'
....and for irony it came from, 'A Shot in the Dark'.
-

I assume he this is in reference to the comment
FIND THE BODY AND PROVE WE KILLED HER
MISSING: Madeleine McCann
Thursday September 13,2007
By Padraic Flanagan in Praia da Luz Have your say(24)
THE parents of missing Madeleine McCann yesterday challenged the police: “Find the body and prove we killed her.”
The couple, who are suspected over the child’s death and the disposal of her body, issued the startling ultimatum as the public prosecutor in Portugal sent the police case against them to a judge.
It is thought that the McCanns’ high-powered lawyers have told them that without a body it will be extremely difficult for the authorities to press charges.
Where is the evidence that Madeleine is dead
http://themaddiecasefiles.com//post3236.html#p3236
So Amaral is quoting a tabloid as a reliable source concerning what Gerry was alleged to have said during Amaral's own time on the investigation, presumably including the arguido interview?
LOL
-
Sounds as though Amaral has finally lost it. Making up stuff about UK law, paranoia about MI5... Wow. Maybe the pressure is getting to him. @)(++(*
-
Sounds as though Amaral has finally lost it. Making up stuff about UK law, paranoia about MI5... Wow. Maybe the pressure is getting to him. @)(++(*
how can u say this when scotland yard are digging pdl?
-
On this 2007 map, the land/buildings marked "Priority Search Area, close to dog kennels" corresponds exactly to land/buildings just searched by SY.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/daniekrugelmap.jpg
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2654890/Police-Madeleine-McCann-search-begin-combing-new-patch-scrubland-today-near-went-missing-seven-years-ago.html
There is a possibility JIMO, that SY may also in future select for search the other (southern) area, marked on that 2007 map as "Priority Search Area (blanket area)", which is directly overlooked by the monument.
-
Sounds as though Amaral has finally lost it. ... paranoia about MI5... Wow.
I do not see why Mr Amaral would lie about this.
Anyway is it not obvious that MI5 or whatever agency would certainly have some interest in the case?
For example to see if they could offer any help.
Are you proposing they had no interest at all?
It would make sense for them to talk to a top person involved in running the UK 2007 searches with Eddie (like maybe MH? or SP? or who do you think IYO?) Makes sense to me. I think Mr Amaral is telling the truth.
-
I do not see why Mr Amaral would lie about this.
Anyway is it not obvious that MI5 or whatever agency would certainly have some interest in the case?
For example to see if they could offer any help.
Are you proposing they had no interest at all?
It would make sense for them to talk to a top person involved in running the UK 2007 searches with Eddie (like maybe MH? or SP? or who do you think IYO?) Makes sense to me. I think Mr Amaral is telling the truth.
Why would Mi5 have interest in this case? Or better to say why would they have interest in influencing it?
IMO this is a pure speculation a conspiracy theory.. telling more about Amaral than anything else.. I bet Amaral visits Ickes forum @)(++(*
Next time he's going to be saying it was the alien influence @)(++(*
-
I think there was a bit of consensus on the forum that things were being done cart before horse.
Perhaps that is not the case, perhaps it has always been the intention to search for remains in the first instance as an elimination process.
The statement from the Met makes it plain there are other lines of enquiry which it will take some time to work through.
So there does not seem to be a closed mind set to the possibility of a living Madeleine still capable of being found.
-
I think there was a bit of consensus on the forum that things were being done cart before horse.
Perhaps that is not the case, perhaps it has always been the intention to search for remains in the first instance as an elimination process.
The statement from the Met makes it plain there are other lines of enquiry which it will take some time to work through.
So there does not seem to be a closed mind set to the possibility of a living Madeleine still capable of being found.
Not finding something does not eliminate the possibility of it existing - in a place that hasn't been searched.
-
Not finding something does not eliminate the possibility of it existing - in a place that hasn't been searched.
The chances would be small, they checked all the places where the land has been disturbed..
-
The chances would be small, they checked all the places where the land has been disturbed..
And the rest of the Algarve ? All it means is they haven't found whatever they are looking for (as far as we know), where they have searched, not that it doesn't exist
-
And the rest of the Algarve ? All it means is they haven't found whatever they are looking for (as far as we know), where they have searched, not that it doesn't exist
They haven't excavated the landfill, so she is still there waiting to be exhumed, until proven otherwise IMO.
-
And the rest of the Algarve ? All it means is they haven't found whatever they are looking for (as far as we know), where they have searched, not that it doesn't exist
Don't you understand that they are following the phone data?
If anyone whose phone was near 5A left PDL they would know that. They would also know where ( in Algarve) this person was!
It has been reported widely that the current searches have to do with phone data findings. So they know whoever was in PDL that night the person was in PDL the following days too..
The scrubland was searched because the phones near 5A also were near the scrubland(s) and they are checking these places.
-
Don't you understand that they are following the phone data?
If anyone whose phone was near 5A left PDL they would know that. They would also know where ( in Algarve) this person was!
It has been reported widely that the current searches have to do with phone data findings. So they know whoever was in PDL that night the person was in PDL the following days too..
The scrubland was searched because the phones near 5A also were near the scrubland(s) and they are checking these places.
No I don't.
There is nothing to connect phone data with any suggestion of burial of Madeleine in PDL or elsewhere.
If Madeleine was buried somewhere, there is no reason to think that the person doing the buying was carrying a mobile phone at the time.
-
No I don't.
There is nothing to connect phone data with any suggestion of burial of Madeleine in PDL or elsewhere.
If Madeleine was buried somewhere, there is no reason to think that the person doing the buying was carrying a mobile phone at the time.
It seems SY think the phone data is important and it makes a lot of sense
-
No I don't.
There is nothing to connect phone data with any suggestion of burial of Madeleine in PDL or elsewhere.
If Madeleine was buried somewhere, there is no reason to think that the person doing the buying was carrying a mobile phone at the time.
Well, they said their searches are results of phone data analysis.
-
Well, they said their searches are results of phone data analysis.
They might have done, but it doesn't mean they were correct in their assumptions.
-
They might have done, but it doesn't mean they were correct in their assumptions.
Not many people were in the area of 5A that night. The phone searches showed them who was.
If big percentage of people who were there had a criminal record that mathematically means that a big percentage of phone users in vicinity of 5A that night had criminal record. IMO it would be a very slim chance statistically speaking that if there were people with a criminal record near the crime scene and they were not the people who were involved in this crime.
-
Not finding something does not eliminate the possibility of it existing - in a place that hasn't been searched.
With reference to VIXTE's excellent post which is spot on but which you evidence such denial about
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4364.msg160989#msg160989
I do not think the Met and the PJ have stuck pins in a map of the Algarve to decide where to sink a hole.
The main hypothesis in some quarters has been that Madeleine died in apartment 5a – her parents covered up her death – her parents hid her body.
I am sure the Met and the PJ have looked at that and have returned to the original premise that Madeleine was abducted and are systematically eliminating sites indicated by using the available phone data.
-
They haven't excavated the landfill, so she is still there waiting to be exhumed, until proven otherwise IMO.
Agree totally WS.
-
Not many people were in the area of 5A that night. The phone searches showed them who was.
If big percentage of people who were there had a criminal record that mathematically means that a big percentage of phone users in vicinity of 5A that night had criminal record. IMO it would be a very slim chance statistically speaking that if there were people with a criminal record near the crime scene and they were not the people who were involved in this crime.
And statistically speaking a child is far more likely to be harmed by their parents than a stranger and the McCanns were in the vicinity of 5a that night and using their phones.
-
Not many people were in the area of 5A that night. The phone searches showed them who was.
If big percentage of people who were there had a criminal record that mathematically means that a big percentage of phone users in vicinity of 5A that night had criminal record. IMO it would be a very slim chance statistically speaking that if there were people with a criminal record near the crime scene and they were not the people who were involved in this crime.
Or at least those who were carrying a mobile phone with them.
-
And statistically speaking a child is far more likely to be harmed by their parents than a stranger and the McCanns were in the vicinity of 5a that night and using their phones.
The people closest are the first to be investigated and either eliminated from the enquiry or charged with an offence.
The Drs McCann were certainly investigated exhaustively over a period of months.
There neither was nor is evidence to enable charges to be laid.
Why after seven years are you incapable of accepting that?
-
With reference to VIXTE's excellent post which is spot on but which you evidence such denial about
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4364.msg160989#msg160989
I do not think the Met and the PJ have stuck pins in a map of the Algarve to decide where to sink a hole.
The main hypothesis in some quarters has been that Madeleine died in apartment 5a – her parents covered up her death – her parents hid her body.
I am sure the Met and the PJ have looked at that and have returned to the original premise that Madeleine was abducted and are systematically eliminating sites indicated by using the available phone data.
I'm quite sure that SY were working on information received and by not apparently finding anything, have eliminated that information.
It does not mean, however, that Madeleine is alive and well somewhere - her status remains uncertain - as it was before all the digging.
-
And statistically speaking a child is far more likely to be harmed by their parents than a stranger and the McCanns were in the vicinity of 5a that night and using their phones.
If in her proximity there was a group of people with criminal records acting suspiciously and her parents who had been checked out and also had alibi then who the police is going to look at ?
-
If in her proximity there was a group of people with criminal records acting suspiciously and her parents who had been checked out and also had alibi then who the police is going to look at ?
What exactly does that mean?
-
The people closest are the first to be investigated and either eliminated from the enquiry or charged with an offence.
The Drs McCann were certainly investigated exhaustively over a period of months.
There neither was nor is evidence to enable charges to be laid.
Why after seven years are you incapable of accepting that?
But if the PJ did as shoddy a job as we are lead to believe perhaps they missed a vital piece of evidence against the McCanns that SY have only just unearthed ( pardon the pun ! ). You have to admit it is a possibility ?
-
I'm quite sure that SY were working on information received and by not apparently finding anything, have eliminated that information.
It does not mean, however, that Madeleine is alive and well somewhere - her status remains uncertain - as it was before all the digging.
The best that can be done is eliminate the possibility that she was killed and buried by the people who were in the vicinity at the time and who have been tracked to certain locations.
I am interested that as soon as these people are picked up the PJ have said they will become arguidos.
Which means there is evidence against them.
If Madeleine’s body is found, they will have to explain that.
If Madeleine’s body is not found they will have to explain what they did with her.
Whatever her current status is ... it is imperative it is disclosed and the sooner the better.
-
But if the PJ did as shoddy a job as we are lead to believe perhaps they missed a vital piece of evidence against the McCanns that SY have only just unearthed ( pardon the pun ! ). You have to admit it is a possibility ?
No, I do not.
If the Met had evidence against them they would be facing due process.
-
But if the PJ did as shoddy a job as we are lead to believe perhaps they missed a vital piece of evidence against the McCanns that SY have only just unearthed ( pardon the pun ! ). You have to admit it is a possibility ?
It was a possibility.
2 years ago. 8(0(*
-
I agree the digs were possibly due to phone data and the Smith sighting,and possible burglars in the area that night. However,SY have clearly stated that the burglary gone wrong scenario is but only ONE of the possible lines of enquiry that they are following. When they get to finally interview these burglars and conclude there is no evidence against them,what will be the next line of enquiry that SY will follow? Bearing in mind that there was no forced entry to apartment 5a,no stranger DNA,fingerprints etc.