The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd

[John]

A Summary of the trial - Week 2 Day 5

First in the witness box today is Dr Lindsey Thomas, a forensic pathologist.

Direct examination by Jerry Blackwell.

Asked whether she had testified previously, Dr Thomas replied that she had done so over a hundred times mostly as a medical examiner. Also as an expert witness in wrongful death or malpractice cases. Added that she has testified in numerous States. Asked if she is being paid to testify in this case replies no. Adds that she didn't ask to be paid, that the State asked her to testify. Also adds that she felt this case was important and that she wanted to do something to explain what had happened. She states that she was asked to review materials and come to an independent conclusion as to the manner of death of Floyd. States that she has reviewed his report in this case. Adds that the volume of material in this case, especially videos, is unprecedented.

States that she reviewed the autopsies, reports, medical records, videos, photos and text books. Adds that she did not do the autopsy as it was done by Dr Andrew Baker of the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's office. Asked if she knows Dr Baker, admits doing so and had overseen parts of his training as a pathology resident. Adds that she had worked with him at Hennepin County and considers him a friend.

Shown the Death Certificate in respect of Floyd, states, that she agrees with the cause of death. States that the primary cause of death was asphyxia or low oxygen. States that the death was caused by both the heart and lungs stopping due to compression. States that Floyd was restrained by handcuffing in the prone position with officer's knees on his neck and back. Clarifies that in her opinion the activities of the law enforcement officers resulted in Floyd's death.

Clarifie's term 'mechanism of death' as being what was going on in the body at the time of death. States that the primary mechanism was asphyxia or low oxygen. That Floyd was in such a position that he could not get sufficient air in to sustain breathing. Explains how hypopharynx collapses when body is compressed. Gives the example of snoring which varies depending on the position one sleeps.

States that Floyd had no sign of lung disease which could have affected his breathing. Adds that pathologist looks at the coronary arteries and the heart muscle.

Agreed that the bodycam and fixed position cameras were extremely useful in determining what occurred. Observed this was not a sudden death. It was not a cardiac arrhythmia. Was not a fentanyl overdose. Goes on to explain the bellows function in that Floyd's ability to breath was severely impacted. Explains what a seisure is and how it is brought about.

Asked about other contributing conditions on the death certificate, responds that is used for public health data purposes as well as being informative for family members. It lists disease processes or drugs that are present at the time of death but that we don't believe contributed directly to the cause of death. That someone looking it years from now can see the whole picture. Witness had looked at other contributing diseases but had agreed that the death did not fit with the various heart diseases shown on the death certificate. Gave example of death by fentanyl which did not fit with Floyds. Also that death by methamphetamine was not a contributing factor. Thus ruled out a drug overdose as cause of death. States that she has filed out thousands of death certificates.

Blackwell points out that the death certificate does not refer to low oxygen or asphyxia. Witness replies that she tends not to use the word asphyxia much so tends to use other descriptions. Similarly low oxygen is not stated as there are no physical findings that show low oxygen.

At this point Blackwell asks permission to distribute a series of autopsy photos to the court. Judge rules these are NOT to be removed from the courtroom or published to media due to their sensitive nature. One picture showed Floyd's face with scratching caused with contact with the road. Another showed a shoulder with scrapes on it consistent with him having moved his shoulder against the road surface in an attempt to get up. A picture of Floyd's left hand had red marks consistent with wearing handcuffs, similarly the left hand. Also skin missing from between the fingers of his right hand where it had come into contact with the rim of the squad car wheel.

Asked if this evidence was conclusive, witness says no. That it was only with assistance of the video evidence that this could be established. Asked if there was any evidence that Floyd would have died anyway that night, witness affirms no.

Blackwell asks about the Press Release put out by the coroner's office. Specifically the words 'homicide' and how the injury occurred. Asked whether she agreed with this, witness concurs.

Asks witness about manner of death, witness states they are, Natural, Accident, Suicide, Homicide and Undetermined. Blackwell asks witness if she agrees with pathologist Dr Baker's finding of homicide in the Floyd case, witness affirms.

Court takes morning break and time out to deal with side issues.

[Venturi Swirl]

I starting doing my own summary but it's intensive. I might cut back on it though.

You’re doing an excellent job.

[Eleanor]

I still think that involuntary manslaughter will carry the day. Remember, it only takes one juror to scuttle it and going by this morning's behind the scenes shenanigans I think the jury could be in revolt. We should find out more later.

That sounds about right to me.  I certainly don't think that Chauvin meant to kill Floyd.

[John]

On the potential juror misconduct the other day...

A juror received a text message from her mother-in-law yesterday stating, "looks like a bad day for the defence". The juror did not reply. Judge ruled no misconduct.

[John]

A Summary of the trial - Week 2 Day 5 cont'd...

Blackwell returns to the question of manner of death again. Asks if homicide rules out death by accidental drug overdose, witness agrees. Asked about the definition of homicide, witness states it is an act caused by others. Adds that a determination of homicide does not infer a criminal act as it is a neutral term. Clarifies that homicide is an intentional or volitional act and not an intent to kill. Asked if whether this definition is what is evident in the death certificate, witness affirms.

Blackwell then introduces the issue of prone restraints. Asked about studies which claim that putting someone in the prone position with a weight on their back is not dangerous. Witness states that such studies are theoretical and not real life. That such studies are conducted with volunteers who are healthy and not subject to stress. That they involve no resemblance to the Floyd case. Asked if the forces which Floyd was subjected to would kill a normal healthy person witness states that she would not like to be subjected to such force.

End of direct.

Cross examination by Eric Nelson.

Nelson's asks if witness has been provided with Dr Baker's opinions in this case, states no.  Asked if doctor's sometimes disagree, witness affirms. Witness agrees that Floyd's heart was slightly enlarged. Discussion about enlarged hearts ensued.

Witness agreed that Floyd had high blood pressure, a condition which can be associated with an enlarged heart. Some technical discussion of heart function generally ensued.

Nelson refers to Floyd's heart and asks witness if they took the police actions out of the equation what would be the cause of death, witness affirms heart disease.

Asked whether abrasions to Floyd's hands, face and shoulder were all received while he was restrained in the prone position, witness states she cannot be certain.

In respect of asphyxia, Nelson asks witness if there are multiple things that can cause it, witness agrees. Asked if controlled substances can cause low oxygen, witness states that some can affect the ability to breathe.

Asked witness about the Chan studies on prone positions and about a Canadian study which looked at over 3000 real life prone position arrests which resulted in no deaths. Witness responds, "ISN'T THAT AMAZING!" when you consider that virtually every forensic pathologist in the US has probably had an officer involved death like this, how did they... it utterly baffles me which is why I kept saying Canada because I think I don't know what is different..."  (Inaudible...Judge has words with witness)

Nelson asks witness about hypoxia and the brain. Asks witness if it is true that in death by asphyxia, she has to exclude all natural and non natural cause. Asks if the prone position in itself is dangerous, witness states it isn't as long as there aren't external factors. Asks if not dangerous on a concrete surface, witness agrees. Asks witness if she had taken Chauvin's weight into analysis, she says no. Witness confirms no bruising on Floyd's shoulders and to the back of neck. No bleeding into the muscles in his back, witness affirms. Again affirms no bruising to Floyd's neck or back.

Witness offers, "everyone bruises differently!"

Asked if pathologist found hypoxic changes in Floyd's brain, witness says he died too quickly to determine. Asked if Floyd appeared confused, witness couldn't say. Asked if at some point he went limp, would witness call that as the progression of hypoxia, witness agrees that it was not a sudden hypoxia event. Witness agrees that where there is a 90% stenosis of the right coronary artery that's going to be limiting oxygen to the heart. And that Floyd had an enlarged heart. Needs more blood. And that adrenaline speeds up the heart. Agreed that methamphetamine speeds up the heart. Asks if methamphetamine and adrenaline cause the heart to work harder. And increases the heart's oxygen needs.

Asks witness at what point the stenosis in the coronary arteries become critical and cause the heart to stop, responds 70%-75% and above.

In respect of drug use, Nelson asks if witness would describe them as a binge use, witness couldn't say. Witness agrees that fentanyl is a respiratory depressant. Adds no way of knowing when fentanyl ingested. Agrees that fentanyl decreases oxygen intake and increases CO². Agrees that no safe level for methamphetamine.

Nelson references drugs found in squadcar and attributable to Floyd by DNA testing. Witness agrees that amount of drugs in Floyd's system could be considered an overdose. That other individuals who had died with a  much lower level of drugs than was found in Floyd's system were considered death by overdose, witness agreed that it could be higher or lower as depends on the individual.

Cross examination ends.

[John]

A Summary of the trial - Week 2 Day 5 cont'd...

Jerry Blackwell re direct.

Witness asked if she would consider hypothetical factors as a pathologist, responds no.

Asks witness if she knows how much fentanyl was found in Floyd's bloodstream, responds a very small amount. Asked what affect such would have had on Floyd's heart, states no that there is too many variables. Witness states that if there were no signs of a fentanyl overdose it makes no sense to conclude that there was an overdose from fentanyl.

Asked what the symptoms of a fentanyl overdose are, states that people just fall asleep, slump over, very peacefully stop breathing. Asked if Floyd was asleep or on a coma, responds no. Asked if during the 9 mins and 29 seconds that he was on the ground did he exibit any signs of fentanyl intoxication, responds no.

Asked about death by heart attack, explains that someone just drops over. Asked if there were any indication s that Floyd suffered from a heart attack, answers no. Asked if there was any damage to the heart, responds no.

Blackwell refers to the 'supposed' Canadian study, witness says she didn't know how to respond to that as it didn't equate to her experience of forensic pathology in the US.

Blackwell reminded witness that she was asked about sitting on a bench with a baseball under her butt, you never done that? Witness laughs and responds no.

Asked if she observed any evidence of a anoxic seisure in Floyd's brain, witness says there was no enough time to see such in autopsy.

End of re direct.

Re cross examination by Nelson.

Asks witness if the heart stops will the body continue to breathe or respire?  Witness responds yes I suppose it could in certain circumstances.  Asked if methamphetamine can constrict tha arteries, witness says it can do that.  Asked about the low level of methamphetamine in the body. Defense objection. Witness offers no opinion.

End of re cross examination.

End of morning session.

[John]

A Summary of the trial - Week 2 Day 5 cont'd...

Final witness this week is Dr Andrew Baker, the forensic pathologist who undertook the autopsy of George Floyd.

Direct examination by Jerry Blackwell.

Witness states that he has been the Chief Medical Examiner for Hennepin County since 2004. Previously was a Major in the Air Force and served as a forensic pathologist for the Department of Defense.

Asked about the circumstances of Floyd's death, states that he had become unconscious while in police custody and had been transferred to Hennepin Hospital where he had been pronounced dead.  Asked if he had seen any videos before he commenced work, responds that he had not but was aware that at least one had gone viral on the internet but chose not to watch it. Stated that he had seen various videos thereafter on different days. Proceeded to explain the methodology of undertaking an autopsy. Added that additional investigations were made on Floyd's back to check for bruising that were not normally undertaken.

Blackwell introduces photographs from the autopsy shown earlier today in examination of Dr Lindsey Thomas. Witness confirms that photos were taken by himself.

Asked if he had seen any injuries to Floyd's back, responds I did not. No bruises, scrapes etc, responds correct. Asked about injuries to Floyd's face, states he had several injuries to his face.

Injuries identified on Floyd's left eyebrow and left cheek. Baker states injuries consistent with Floyd's face being on the asphalt road.

Further injuries indentified on Floyd's face, left shoulder, confirms consistent with lying prone on asphalt. Further injuries indentified on Floyd's hands consistent with having handcuffs on.

Witness states that he did not photograph Floyd's heart or other irganscas they didn't appear damaged. That the heart was removed from the lungs and weighed. Coronary arteries were carefully dissected and then checked for normal openings and for blockages. Heart is then dissected checking for previous damage. Found no visible or microscopic damage to Floyd's heart. Found lesion damage in Floyd's coronary arteries known as hardening of the coronary arteries. Lesions were stable and not fractured. Saw no damage to the heart muscle. Similarly found no damage to the brain.

That Floyd's lungs had edema fluid in them. States that given he was subject to CPR that there was multiple reasons for the pulmonary edema. Saw no evidence of a pulmonary embolism.

Witness confirms that all toxicology samples are sent to NMS Labs.

Asked about Floyd's stomach contents, states a brown fluid and bread. Found no tablets in the stomach. Confirmed that Floyd had sickle cell trait but was irrelevant to his death.

Dr Baker asked about the final Press Release seen earlier and the Death Certificate relaxing to George Floyd.

Blackwell goes over the same questions as put to previous witness wrt the Death Certificate getting the same answers but admits that Floyd had very serious underlying heart disease, an enlarged heart that needs more oxygen. That in the context of a physical altercation the heart needs to work harder so the restraint by the officers created a situation whereby Floyd's heart couldn't compensate.

Again witness mentions the other significant conditions. States that fentanyl did not cause the subdual or neck restraint. The heart condition did not cause the subdual or neck restraint.

Direct examination ends. Side bar called with 10 minute break.

[John]

A Summary of the trial - Week 2 Day 5 cont'd...

Cross examination by Eric Nelson.

Asked about the word complicated, witness explains it as an untoward event.  Asked if he took into consideration the restraint and the heart disease, witness agrees. Asked if the heart disease, the drugs in Floyd's system and the history of hypertension played a role in his death, witness agrees in his opinion that it had.

Witness states that he records the unexpected in an autopsy. Asked about the media coverage, states that he has not seen the videos before undertaking the autopsy. Agrees that the BCA had called him and explained what had happened including that pressure had been applied to Floyd's neck. That because of this the witness had undertaken further procedures on Floyd.

Witness confirms that Floyd's heart was enlarged. Agreed that enlarged heart requires more oxygen. That Floyd was know to be hypertensive ie had high blood pressure. Confirms narrowing of the coronary arteries up to 90% in one of them. Asked about hypoxia of the heart, witness states that there are several mechanisms.

Asked about effects of methamphetamine on the heart, states that it is not good in someone with heart disease or bad coronary arteries. Witness clarifies that he did eventually view the video footage.

Asked if the prone position is not inherently dangerous, agrees.  Asked how many autopsies he had undertaken, answers about 2,900 to 3000.

Witness agrees that on viewing the video, that it was his opinion that the knee could not be on either carotid artery. That if excessive pressure had been applied that there would be bruising, witness replies not necessarily. Confirms no bruising in Floyd's back. Confirms that he has certified death in a patient with a lower level of fentanyl in their bloodstream than Floyd. Agrees that combinations of drugs and interactions of drugs are relevant.

Witness asked if he had meeting with Hennepin County attorneys on 26 May 2020 and told them that the autopsy revealed no physical evidence that Mr Floyd died of asphyxiation, agreed that he conveyed such to them.  And had told them that you had avoided watching the videos, witness states yes, until after the autopsy. Witness asked if he on same day did he offer to Hennepin County attorneys office his opinion as to what factors contributed to the death. Responds cannot recall but would have offered the facts about the heart condition. Also admits relaying the toxicology findings to the attorneys office. Asked if he recalls describing the level of fentanyl as a fatal level, confirms that describing it in other circumstances that it would be a fatal level.

Witness asked if he recalls telling Hennepin County attorneys that if he had come across Mr Floyd in other circumstances that he would have determined the cause of death as fentanyl overdose?  Witness responses that yes, had there been no trauma.

Witness asked about being interviewed by the FBI on or about the 8 July 2020, agrees. Asked about the opinions he provided to those people. States that he told the Hennepin County attorneys and the FBI that it was the constraint on Mr Floyd that tipped him over the edge considering his heart disease and fentanyl ingestion. Added that was also claried by letter.

Asked witness to confirm that he had already testified twice in respect of the proceeding related to Floyd, witness agrees. And that first occasion was on 20 August 2020, agrees.

Asked if the application of the knee would cut off Floyd's airway, confirms it would not.  Asked if he remembers discussing how the coronary arteries worked, responds he doesn't.  Witness then shown transcript of previous proceedings.

Admits testifying before the Federal Grand Jury. Admits to deferring to other specialists.

Cross examination ends.

Re direct by Blackwell.

Asks witness what today remains his opinion as to what the death was for Mr Floyd, responds that it is unchanged and is cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression. Adds that was my top line then and will remain my top line now. Adds that other contributing conditions are not direct cause of Floyd's death. And adds that he would still classify manner of death today as a homicide.

Re direct ends.  Sidebar and 15 minute break.

Court ends.

[John]

Having heard the varous prosecution witnesses and experts testify including the chief forensic pathologist of Hennepin County yesterday it is abundantly clear that George Floyd had underlying medical issues which contributed to his death. The highlighted summaries above are direct testimony from the pathologist who carried out the autopsy.

Outwardly George Floyd looked a picture of health albeit that he appeared somewhat intoxicated to the various witnesses. It seems that the exertions of his arrest and what followed created a situation whereby his heart could not cope with the stress. What resulted was a fatal heart attack and death.

The officers who arrested Floyd that day were not to know this, he appeared to be in reasonable physical health. It is clear too that his arrest and the placing of him in the prone position hastened his demise. The jury have to decide if the officers acted reasonably or if they failed to give the suspect in their custody the care and attention he deserved. A difficult one?

[Venturi Swirl]

Having heard the varous prosecution witnesses and experts testify including the chief forensic pathologist of Hennepin County yesterday it is abundantly clear that George Floyd had underlying medical issues which contributed to his death. The highlighted summaries above are direct testimony from the pathologist who carried out the autopsy.

Outwardly George Floyd looked a picture of health albeit that he appeared somewhat intoxicated to the various witnesses. It seems that the exertions of his arrest and what followed created a situation whereby his heart could not cope with the stress. What resulted was a fatal heart attack and death.

The officers who arrested Floyd that day were not to know this, he appeared to be in reasonable physical health. It is clear too that his arrest and the placing of him in the prone position hastened his demise. The jury have to decide if the officers acted reasonably or if they failed to give the suspect in their custody the care and attention he deserved. A difficult one?

Not really.  The moment he stopped resisting and became unconscious is the moment they should have got off him and started trying to save his life as per their training. IMO.

[Eleanor]

Having heard the varous prosecution witnesses and experts testify including the chief forensic pathologist of Hennepin County yesterday it is abundantly clear that George Floyd had underlying medical issues which contributed to his death. The highlighted summaries above are direct testimony from the pathologist who carried out the autopsy.

Outwardly George Floyd looked a picture of health albeit that he appeared somewhat intoxicated to the various witnesses. It seems that the exertions of his arrest and what followed created a situation whereby his heart could not cope with the stress. What resulted was a fatal heart attack and death.

The officers who arrested Floyd that day were not to know this, he appeared to be in reasonable physical health. It is clear too that his arrest and the placing of him in the prone position hastened his demise. The jury have to decide if the officers acted reasonably or if they failed to give the suspect in their custody the care and attention he deserved. A difficult one?

Absolutely.  Thank you for that.

[John]

Not really.  The moment he stopped resisting and became unconscious is the moment they should have got off him and started trying to save his life as per their training. IMO.

That's the crux of it. The defence will argue though that the officers were distracted by the forming crowd.

[Venturi Swirl]

That's the crux of it. The defence will argue though that the officers were distracted by the forming crowd.

that’s a pretty poor defence imo.  What was this crowd doing exactly?  At least one person in the crowd was trying to warn the police that Floyd was in serious jeopardy.

[John]

that’s a pretty poor defence imo.  What was this crowd doing exactly?  At least one person in the crowd was trying to warn the police that Floyd was in serious jeopardy.

That's why I believe involuntary manslaughter will be the jury's judgement if they agree at all.

[John]

As we start the 11th full day of the Derek Chauvin trial, the state is rapidly approaching the end of its presentation for its case in chief. We are therefore nearing what could be the last significant testimony for the prosecution.

The court heard on Friday that George Floyd died not of any single cause but of multiple forces acting together. His profound heart disease, his dangerous hypertension, his deadly-levels of fentanyl complicated by methamphetamine and ultimately his decision to forcibly resist the efforts of four police officers attempting to make a lawful arrest.  But also, of course, that force used by police, including the subdual restraint.

There’s a second condition that must also be met in order for that conduct that may have made a significant contribution to Floyd’s death to be a crime and that is the conduct itself must in some manner be legally wrongful.  If the conduct was lawful, it cannot be the basis for criminal liability.

The State need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin’s actual conduct was a significant contributory cause of Floyd’s death AND that Chauvin’s conduct was not reasonable under the totality of the circumstances, given the facts known to Chauvin at the time and in the context of his training and experience.