The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd

[John]

Do they?  I didn't know that.  But no doubt The Police do.

I can assure they do. Some folk are just crazy out there, most people never see it off course.

Spare the rod, spoil the child.  It is the police that have to deal with them when they get older and are out on the town mouthing off to everyone.

[Eleanor]

I can assure they do. Some folk are just crazy out there, most people never see it off course.

Was this good reason for Chauvin to be afraid of Floyd?  Or at least very wary?

[John]

A Summary of the trial - Week 3 Day 2 cont'd...

Witness Barry Brodd.

Cross examination by Steve Schleicher.   Sidebar called plus 5min break.

Schleicher  asks witness to confirm that it is opinion that Floyd being handcuffed in the prone position on the ground was not a use of force to which the witness concurs. Asks witness if it is his opinion that this is the case because putting a suspect in such a position would not inflict pain, witness agrees.

Asked if it did inflict pain, witness asked if that would change his opinion. Witness states only if officers were manipulating the body or the hands in a way that would create pain, agrees that would be a use of force. Asked if Floyd actually experienced pain, would that be a use of force, witness states that if pain were inflicted through the prone control then he agrees that that would be a use of force. Schleicher makes reference to prone restraint on a hard surface and states that the defendant was on top of him. Witness says that he wouldn't say on top of him. Schleicher shows the photo of Chauvin with his knee in Floyd's neck, again witness disagrees that Chauvin was on top of him. Schleicher makes reference to Chauvin's other knee and states that it is on Floyd's back, witness disagrees and adds that it was on his arm. Asked again about use of force, witness agrees that both Chauvin's knees on Floyd could be seen as a use of force if Floyd experienced pain.

Asked about positional asphyxia, witness states that only an obsese person should have any problem with prone restraint.  Witness states that he has been aware of positional asphyxia for 30 years. That law enforcement is aware of it.

Asked about putting a suspect in the recovery position, witness states that it only takes seconds to accomplish.

Asked if he knows how the MPD defines use of force, states he has some knowledge. Witness asked if force should be appropriate, witness agrees. Asked if he agrees that the original call made to Cup Goods overva $20 bill was on the less serious side, witness concurs.

Asked to explain what is a threat. Witness says it could be the position of the hands, position of the body. Agreed that there is a difference between a threat and a risk. Discussion ensued as to risk factors.

Agrees that someone passed out because of drugs does not constitute a threat. That it is the behaviour of the subject that can pose a threat. Agrees that a threat by a third party or crowd is not a reason to justify the use of force against someone who is not directing such activity.

Witness agrees that officers should at all times be aware of the suspect in their charge. In their custody is in their care. Agrees that the use of force must be reasonable at all times. Has received a copy of MPD use of force training manual but agrees that the phrase one-upmanship does not appear.

Witness agrees that information being received from other officers should be considered as part of the overall circumstances. Agreed that Floyd was handcuffed in the prone position for 9 minutes and 29 seconds.

Witness claims that Floyd actively resisted officers for some minutes after being put in the prone position.

Schleicher shows video showing start of the restraint period after Floyd was taken back out of the squad car. Showing defendants left knee on Floyd's neck and right one on Floyd's left shoulder blade/upper back, witness concurs.

Showed the still with defendants left foot off the ground and pressure in Floyd's neck, witness states that Chauvin was responding to Floyd's movements. Adds that Chauvin had to put his hand on the squad car to regain his balance.

Asked about Floyd saying that he can't breath six times, a reasonable police officer would take note, witness responds that Floyd was still struggling with the officers just as he had done since being placed in the squad car.

5 minute break.

Witness agrees that the defendant responded with a "Ah ha" when Floyd was complaining that everything hurt.

Shown another video with four bystanders stood in the pavement, witness agrees that they were not doing anything or saying anything but that defendant at that point could have been considering his options. Shown another video, officer Lane is heard to asked if they should roll Floyd onto his side, the defendant states not yet.

Schleicher suggests that defendant is still applying force to Floyd, witness concurs but adds more compliant. Explains that the position of Floyd's hands were not consistent with a fully compliant suspect. An angry Schleicher asks, "so attempting to breathe while restrained is being slightly non compliant? Witness responds No.

Shown yet another video of several bystanders, witness was asked if it was a threatening crowd, witness responds no. Adds that he heard officer Lane state that Floyd was passing out. Agrees that Floyd was not resisting arrest at that moment but in same prone control position.

Schleicher getting somewhat overwrought  and frustrated with the witness states that Floyd wasn't resisting yet defendant was still in the same general position. That such was not a reasonable action. Nothing further.

Cross examination ends.

Re direct examination by Nelson.

[John]

Was this good reason for Chauvin to be afraid of Floyd?  Or at least very wary?

The problem is that they supposedly knew each other as they worked in the same club at one stage albeit Chauvin outside and Floyd inside.

If that was the case then Chauvin knew that Floyd was a passive resistor. I'm surprised this hasn't come out at the trial yet.

[Eleanor]

The problem is that they supposedly knew each other as they worked in the same club at one stage albeit Chauvin outside and Floyd inside.

If that was the case then Chauvin knew that Floyd was a passive resistor. I'm surprised this hasn't come out at the trial yet.

What?  Does that mean what I think it means?

[John]

A Summary of the trial - Week 3 Day 2 cont'd...

Re direct examination by Nelson.

Witness states that the prone position is a control hold. That it doesn't impact on the structures of the neck. That a suspect can continue to move his head. That he observed Floyd move his head while in the prone position. That Floyd appeared to have a strong pulse according to the visible veins in his arms.

Nelson asks if when the defendant first came upon the scene and saw Floyd resist the police officers, would that have been a warning to be cautious. Witness affirms yes.

That three officers failed to get Floyd to stay in the squad car. That there was active agression by Floyd at the start of the prone restraint. Asked if officers are trained to assess the risk, witness responds yes. And the threat, witness responds yes.

Asked if a person is saying he can't breathe but continues to actively resist albeit at a lower level, would a reasonable officer take that into consideration, witness responds yes.

Asked about the time when the defendants boot came off the ground, would that be an increase in force, witness responds that he couldn't tell.

Asked about the moment when the defendant had to put his hand on the squad car, was that an increase of force or am attempt to regain his balance. Witness states the latter as Floyd was moving about so defendant lost his balance momentarily.

Asked if he saw a movement of the defendant's weight between his two knees, witness responds constantly.

Asked if you can underestimate a bystander just by age, agrees.

Asked if a 17-year-old can pose a danger, responds certainly.

Asked if traffic was an issue, responds that that was an environmental hazard as there were no barriers around them.

Asked if he agreed that a group of people are peaceful and placid at one moment, would they be so at the next. Responds no.

Should a reasonable officer be prepared for a change in a crowd. Responds that that would be part of the situational awareness in the planning process.

Witness states that an officer is trained to address with what they see as the greatest risk.

Is a reasonable officer trained that if someone is passed out that they might be more violent when they regain consciousness, witness agrees that they can be and adds that he has personally experienced such a situation in his own career as a police officer.

End of re direct examination.

Re re cross examination.

Schleicher asks if witness saw the autopsy photos showing the bruises on Floyd's face and shoulder. Responds no.

Again asks if struggling to breathe is not active resistance. Witness responds not to him but might have been to the officer.

Asks if an officer might not realise that they are contributing to positional asphyxia. Agrees.

End of re re cross examination. Witness excused. Jury excused.

Judge has further issues to discuss with counsel.

[carlymichelle]

here is the   full police  cam of that  day be aware it it is quite distressing 

   

the police at the start are  calm   but like john  said he was refusing to get in the  car  also he is making police nervous and he has foam  around his mouth

[John]

Thanks for posting that video Carly, it certainly catches just about everything. Don't know why it hasn't been played in its entirety to the jury yet.

An awful incident which could so easily have been avoided. I just about caught Floyd say "I don't want to go back there" just as he emerged from the Mercedes SUV at 3.55

I'm thinking he meant prison, that was his real dread I think.

[carlymichelle]

john i  thought the police  were handling him  quite   well at the  start   then he started fighting them and   you hear the police  saying  he  was  acting erratic which was  true

[John]

john i  thought the police  were handling him  quite   well at the  start   then he started fighting them and   you hear the police  saying  he  was  acting erratic which was  true

A lot of people have said that George was not the type to offer active aggression, clearly it was passive resistance that we saw on his arrest. He just didn't want to go back to jail for a $20 bill. I also believe Morries Hall has a lot to answer for in this case.

[John]

A Summary of the trial - Week 3 Day 3 pre testimony debate

Defence motion for a judgement of acquittal.

A motion for judgment of acquittal rests on the claim that the evidence at trial was insufficient for a conviction. In other words, the defendant argues that no reasonable jury could possibly find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. A defendant can ask a judge to acquit on all of the charges or just some of them.

Eric Nelson for the defence argued that the numerous prosecution witnesses have generally given opposing views as to the cause of death of George Floyd. He argued that no jury could come to a reasonable decision given such conflicting testimony.

Steve Schleicher for the prosecution opposed the motion arguing that the issue is not about inconsistencies but about taken as a whole rests on whether the state has proved its case. He claims that most witnesses have opined that the defendant's use of force was unreasonable. That the force was unnecessary and carried on too long.

Judge Cahill refused the motion. States that the court must view the evidence in a light most favourable to the state.

Will Morries Hall testify?

Next  issue was the question as to whether Morries Hall will testify. You might remember that Hall was the guy who was lurking in the Cup Foods store with George Floyd, in fact, was seen to pass his something just before Floyd made the purchase of cigarettes with a fake $20 bill. Hall was the front seat passenger in the SUV driven by George Floyd when police arrived on the scene and was seen to throw away a packet after Floyd had been removed from the SUV. Hall fled the Minneapolis area and was picked up in another state. He now refuses to testify by reason of self incrimination.

Attorney for Adrian Cousens and Geoffrey Isaacman acting for Morries Hall who is present at court. States Hall cannot answer any defence questions. Hall cannot put himself in that car with Floyd as it opens him up to drugs possession charges. And that is the casesl regardless of whether Chauvin is convincted or acquitted. Putting himself in that car gives the state free rein to bring third degree murder charges against him.

Judge Cahill tells Hall that he does have a 5th amendment right. Adds that ultimately it is his choice. Asks would he be willing to answer those questions.

Morries Hall states "no I am not".  Add that he is fearful of criminal charges going forward.

Judge Cahill finds that Hall has a complete 5th amendment privilege here and accordingly quashes the subpoena.

[John]

A Summary of the trial - Week 3 Day 3

First defence witness today was Dr David Fowler,  an eminent retired forensic pathologist of some 37 years repute.

Direct examination by defence attorney Eric Nelson.

Witness states that he was formerly employed at the office of the chief medical examiner for the state of Maryland. Was educated in Capetown, South Africa and graduated there in 1983. Has taught at multiple hospitals. At one stage was a chief pathologist. As an assistant medical examiner was responsible for teaching other junior forensic pathologists. Responsible for recruiting and evaluating medical staff. Has testified in many hundreds of case previously. Has published many articles on pathology. Has reviewed on average 500-600 per year.

A member of the Forensics Panel. A committee which looks at and evaluates in order to ensure that case reviews are based on known science. It has experts from all medical fields. States that he first got involved in this case when approached by the defence. That he submitted the case to the Forensics Panel for review and that 13 professional individuals were involved in doing so. States that 7 of the peer reviewers are forensic pathologists l, that others include behavioural health specialists, pulmonologists, ER physicians and toxicologists.

States that the primary reviewer receives the entire package of materials in the case and that the others receive a smaller portion depending on their specialisms.  Prosecution objects...line of questioning changes.

Asked about NAME (National Association of Medical Examiners), states that he is a member of that committee and was a former chairman. Adds that it incorporates a standards committee. Gives some detail as to what is involved in a death investigation. Explains that the death certificate concludes both the primary cause of death and includes other contributing conditions.

Asked about the death certificate in this case, states that the drugs contributed to Floyd's cardiac arrest. His opinion is that Floyd had a sudden cardiac arrhythmia due to his heart disease during his restraint by the police. That the use of fentanyl and methamphetamine, possible carbon moxide poisoning from the squad car exhaust, paraganglioma or the natural disease process that he had contributed to his death.

In respect of the cardiopulmonary arrest in Dr Baker's autopsy report, stated that Floyd's heart was enlarged. Explains that there are two methods to study the weight of a heart, the Molina and the Mayo. Bottom line was that Floyd had an enlarged heart. Explains that Floyd's enlarged heart would have needed increased nutrients. Explains that replenishment of the required nutrients is via the coronary arteries. Heart racing, palpitations, shortness of breath are all signs of an increased heart rate. That cardiac arrest will follow if subject doesn't rest.

States that Floyd had hypertension and an elevated blood pressure. That he had a narrowing of the arteries which resulted in a reduction of the supply of blood and nutrients. That the significance of the narrowing depends where the narrowing occurs. That Floyd had a 90% narrowing in one of his coronary arteries but was still able to go about his daily activities.

States that Floyd's blood pressure was greatly inflated and much higher than he would expect. Asked about the other contributing factors, states that carbon monoxide poisoning might have contributed to his death. States that there was evidence the squad car was running. Prosecution objection... sidebar.

Continues that the squad car was running as water droplets runoff could be seen on the road beside Me Floyd.

Explains how carbon monoxide can starve the body of oxygen and ultimately cause death. That subjects with heart disease are affected quicker.  That Floyd's close proximity relative to the exhaust of the squad car could have been a contributing factor in his death.

States that studies have shown that a subject handcuffed in the prone position with weight applied to the back had no significant effect on breathing. Agrees that young healthy individuals were used, that it was not on a hard surface or that the subjects were not subject to stress. That the weight of Chauvin's knee on Floyd was considerably less than that used in the experiments.

Asked about injuries to Floyd, witness responds that there were no injuries at points where officer Chauvin had placed his knees. There was no bruising on his back or shoulders. I'm his opinion the absence of such injuries indicates that the force applied to Floyd was less than that required to restrain him.

States that Floyd's death was a sudden cardiac arrest on basis that his heart was vulnerable because it was too big, it demands lots of oxygen, it has very narrow vessels, there are certain drugs that are present in his system that put it at risk of arrhythmia, methamphetamine and fentanyl which slow down the breathing, we have the carbon monoxide which has the capacity to rob that additional oxygen-carrying capacity from the body and then we have vasoconstriction. At some point Floyd's heart exhausted it's reserves of metabolic supply and went into arrhythmia and stopped pumping blood effectively.

Nelson shows video of Floyd in the SUV when the police arrive showing that he had a white tablet in his mouth. Analysis of white tablets found in the SUV afterwards determined that Floyd's saliva and DNA was on them. Witness states that respiratory rate is decreased by fentanyl. That anything that lowers his oxygen saturation in the blood will act again to restrict the oxygen supply to his heart muscle past any blockage. States that methamphetamine has three major factors. It can cause arrhythmias, vasoconstriction and it causes the heart to beat faster. And that would impair someone with heart disease like Mr Floyd.

[John]

A Summary of the trial - Week 3 Day 3 cont'd...

Witness states that the toxicology report would suggest that Floyd ingested fentanyl quite some time before his altercation with police but that the methamphetamine had been ingested closer to the event. (As Floyd had his hands cuffed in the back seat of the squad car, the tablets found there must have fallen out of his mouth.)

Asked what the relevance of finding a paraganglioma in this case, witness responds that it will cause the subject to be hypertensive (high blood pressure).

Asked if he had formed ultimately opinions as to the cause and manner of death of Mr Floyd. Witness responds yes. Adds that Mr Floyd died of a cardiac arrhythmia due to hypertensive atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease during the restraint.

Asked if there were contributing causes. Responds yes. Adds the substances, the fentanyl and the methamphetamine, the potential of a carbon monoxide role and the potential of the paraganglioma was adding adrenaline to this whole mixture making things even worse.

Asked how he would classify the manner. Witness responds that he would fall back to undetermined. Agrees that there were many contributing causes.  No further questions.

Direct ends.

Cross examination by Jerry Blackwell.

Right out of the starting block Blackwell is on the attack. Firstly he refers to Chauvin's weight and asks the witness where he had got it from. Witness responds that he got it from counsel. But Blackwell points out that the calculation was made without the weight of the police equipment being added to it. Witness acknowledges that to be correct.

Blackwell then brings up the subject of the claimed carbon monoxide poisoning and refers witness to the autopsy report which has no reference to carbon monoxide. Witness agrees.

Blackwell then points out that carbon monoxide poisoning dies not feature in any report to which the witness replies that it wasn't tested for.  Witness is then asked if he physically inspected the squad car alongside Floyd was restrained. Witness stated that he had not.  Blackwell then asks how the witness knows it was even running to which witness responds that you could see the tell-tale signs of water dripping from the vehicles exhaust as Floyd was restrained beside it.

Blackwell then shows George Floyd loitering about in the Cup Foods store where he appeared to be chewing something white. Witness states that he never said it was a pill, that it was something white.

Asks witness about a scientist called Dr Ray and a discussion he had had with defence counsel, witness is asked about the withdrawal of a study on use of force restraint in relation to positional asphyxia which scientist later denied he had withdrawn. Witness responds that he hasn't completely withdrawn his opinion. Blackwell interrupts.

Witness agrees that The Forensic Panel is a business, that is not a government department or a no profit organisation.

Witness agrees that in a substantial number of cases of positional asphyxia, that there are no sign at autopsy of bruisings or any other manifestations of force having been applied.

Witness corrects Blackwell and states that he referred previously to sudden cardiac arrest and not sudden death.  Agrees that immediate emergency care should have been given when he went into cardiac arrest.

Agrees that an anoxic seisure means that the brain is suffering because of a lack of oxygen.  Agrees that no oxygen to the brain will result in a PEA.

Witness asked about the effect on fentanyl in overdose. Witness states that Floyd didn't die from a fentanyl overdose but it contributed.

Blackwell again refers to the pills found in the SUV.  Witness agrees that no pills were found in Floyd's stomach.

Referring to the methamphetamine, witness agrees that the amount found in Floyd's bloodstream was consistent with that in a therapeutic environment.

Blackwell asks about the timeline in witnesses report. Witness states that he has no reason to disagree with that at this time.

Cross examination ends.  Afternoon break.

Re Direct.

Asks if the state ever provided the weight of police equipment. Witness answers no.

Asked about the bruising, witness responds that the more energy that is applied to the body the more the likelihood of an injury and the heavier the person the more likelihood there will be more energy so yes.

Witness states that he has seen bruising associated with positional asphyxia in other cases.

Asks witness if the State of Minnesota has provided any information testing on the possibility of carbon monoxide poisoning, states no.  Witness confirms that only in the last few days has the State of Minnesota provided him with photos of the underside of squad car 320.

[John]

A Summary of the trial - Week 3 Day 3 cont'd...

Asked about a white object in Floyd's mouth in the Cup Foods store and in the SUV when officer Lane approached him.  Witness states that he cannot say if it was the same object in both cases or even what it was.

Asked about the drugs found in the back of squad car 320. Confirms that drugs tested positive for Mr Floyd's saliva and DNA. Confirmed Floyd was rear handcuffed in the squad car.

Asked about the affidavit by Dr Ray, witness states that he didn't retract his comments wrt obsese subjects.

With reference to The Forensic Panel committee, witness states that his expert opinion would not change simply because he was paid.

Judge sustained an objection from the prosecution when Nelson asked the witness if people who volunteered their time were more trustworthy.

Witness states that the defendant's knee did not obstruct Floyd's carotid artery and even if it had instructed one, the other one and the two other veins would have continued to supply the brain with enough blood for it to function.

Witness states that it is common to see bruising with asphyxia cases.

Witness states that he has not been provided with any toxicological report relating to Floyd's stomach contents. Asked if he has been made aware if any subsequent tests by the pathologist who carried out the autopsy on Floyd, witness states he hasn't.

Witness agrees that Floyd complained of breathing difficulty even before being put in the prone position.

Re Direct ends

Re cross examination.

Blackwell refers to one pill found in the back of squad car 320.  Asks witness if he saw any video that showed Floyd spitting out a pill. Witness states he did not.

End of cross examination. Sidebar.

Proceedings ended for today.

[John]

It was noted yesterday that Judge Cahill disallowed a question from prosecution attorney Jerry Blackwell who asked forensic pathologist Dr David Fowler if he considered evidence from those who had given evidence for free more reliable than that of paid witnesses. Seems the bitchiness has begun!