Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on May 22, 2013, 09:23:31 PM
Title: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on May 22, 2013, 09:23:31 PM
Mark Williams-Thomas theory is that Madeleine awoke, wandered and was abducted. He writes the following in this report for Sky News...
As a criminologist, former detective and authority on paedophile crimes, I have followed the Madeleine McCann case from the very beginning.
What happened to her on that fateful night in May 2007? Where is she now, is she alive or dead? Was she murdered in her parent's apartment, and if so by whom?
Was she abducted from where she slept in between her brother and sister who remained asleep throughout?
Or did she wander out of the apartment looking for her parents and become the victim of an opportunistic predatory paedophile, who either used her for his own sexual gratification or smuggled her out of the country?
I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment.
She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar.
It was at this point that she was most likely abducted by an opportunistic predatory paedophile.
Interestingly the police dogs first tracked a scent down this exact route. Unfortunately, although it is within range of the supermarket CCTV it was not working.
I don't believe a paedophile was watching the apartment nor do I believe an offender entered the apartment - this would be too high-risk.
I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment.
That's plausible, but I don't think she woke up, I think she never got asleep because she was scared.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Chinagirl on May 22, 2013, 10:50:05 PM
I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment.
That's plausible, but I don't think she woke up, I think she never got asleep because she was scared.
She was seen asleep - by her father, I believe.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Carana on May 23, 2013, 12:52:29 PM
I'm not commenting on the person in question in particular, but I've developed an allergy to the spoutings of most talking-head experts in this case.
- Some aren't experts (and never will be);
- Others aren't in a position to give a professional view on details without access to more than media speculation, the odd video clip, a visit months after the events, and half-baked "leaks";
- Yet others have had a specific agenda to promote.
I DO have a tendency to listen to those who are cautious and who may have professional experience to share in general terms.
Offhand, I doubt that I could name one.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 03, 2014, 09:40:28 PM
She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar.
Debunked by Kate & Gerry.
She would have had to open the gates with the child locks & closed them behind her.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on May 03, 2014, 11:49:35 PM
Interestingly the police dogs first tracked a scent down this exact route.
No they didn’t.
Both dogs followed the same route independently of each other. Neither showed any interest in the patio exit or the steps which were Madeleine's 'supposed' exit point. What I found interesting was that both dogs independently paid particular attention to the door of apartment 5j which was unoccupied.
Perhaps this is one of the properties NSY wish to identify occupancy of?
When one bears in mind that these dogs were deployed on the 8th May when scents would be dissipated, one wonders what they might have come up with if used sooner.
- Completing the internal search of Block 5 - the verandas of access to the apartments - and when outside, the dog turned toward [directed itself to] Block 4. However, at the corner of Block 5, it turned left heading for the path between the building and the leisure area - pools and restaurant - going on to turn left [again], i.e. going around the building, setting out for the main street, crossing the road to the wall of Block 6. There, it sniffed the bottom, turned to the right - going down the road - taking itself to the car park next to Block 6 where its search [took it] to a lamppost where it then became confused and stopped the search.
- The second dog was submitted to the same operation, also showing interest at door of 5J, namely it scratched with it front paws at the veranda parapet and lifted its head to sniff the air to find a scent. As noted above, this interest was conditioned by various things, it being certain that the dog sensed a strong odour in that place and wanted to check that [if] he had found the intended scent there. http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INFORMATION-SERVICE.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: sadie on May 04, 2014, 01:15:11 AM
Interestingly the police dogs first tracked a scent down this exact route.
No they didn’t.
Both dogs followed the same route independently of each other. Neither showed any interest in the patio exit or the steps which were Madeleine's 'supposed' exit point. What I found interesting was that both dogs independently paid particular attention to the door of apartment 5j which was unoccupied.
Perhaps this is one of the properties NSY wish to identify occupancy of?
When one bears in mind that these dogs were deployed on the 8th May when scents would be dissipated, one wonders what they might have come up with if used sooner.
- Completing the internal search of Block 5 - the verandas of access to the apartments - and when outside, the dog turned toward [directed itself to] Block 4. However, at the corner of Block 5, it turned left heading for the path between the building and the leisure area - pools and restaurant - going on to turn left [again], i.e. going around the building, setting out for the main street, crossing the road to the wall of Block 6. There, it sniffed the bottom, turned to the right - going down the road - taking itself to the car park next to Block 6 where its search [took it] to a lamppost where it then became confused and stopped the search.
- The second dog was submitted to the same operation, also showing interest at door of 5J, namely it scratched with it front paws at the veranda parapet and lifted its head to sniff the air to find a scent. As noted above, this interest was conditioned by various things, it being certain that the dog sensed a strong odour in that place and wanted to check that [if] he had found the intended scent there. http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INFORMATION-SERVICE.htm
Photo showing apartment 5J
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Bal.png
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Bal.png)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on May 04, 2014, 01:49:20 AM
Seems PJ could not get a door key IMO from the varioius local agents but obtained access to interior 5J on approx 11th??? May by climbing onto a south-facing balcony and getting in through a balcony window which someone had forgot to lock then opening from inside a north-facing and accessible window to let a GNR dog in and the dog was interested in the fridge with door open with rotting meat+veg in IIRC.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on May 04, 2014, 07:53:27 PM
Apologies if someone has already pointed this out but how does Mark Williams-Thomas explain the open window and shutter if it was a woke and wandered scenario?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on May 04, 2014, 07:55:30 PM
She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar.
Debunked by Kate & Gerry.
She would have had to open the gates with the child locks & closed them behind her.
Interestingly the police dogs first tracked a scent down this exact route.
No they didn’t.
Both dogs followed the same route independently of each other. Neither showed any interest in the patio exit or the steps which were Madeleine's 'supposed' exit point. What I found interesting was that both dogs independently paid particular attention to the door of apartment 5j which was unoccupied.
Perhaps this is one of the properties NSY wish to identify occupancy of?
When one bears in mind that these dogs were deployed on the 8th May when scents would be dissipated, one wonders what they might have come up with if used sooner.
- Completing the internal search of Block 5 - the verandas of access to the apartments - and when outside, the dog turned toward [directed itself to] Block 4. However, at the corner of Block 5, it turned left heading for the path between the building and the leisure area - pools and restaurant - going on to turn left [again], i.e. going around the building, setting out for the main street, crossing the road to the wall of Block 6. There, it sniffed the bottom, turned to the right - going down the road - taking itself to the car park next to Block 6 where its search [took it] to a lamppost where it then became confused and stopped the search.
- The second dog was submitted to the same operation, also showing interest at door of 5J, namely it scratched with it front paws at the veranda parapet and lifted its head to sniff the air to find a scent. As noted above, this interest was conditioned by various things, it being certain that the dog sensed a strong odour in that place and wanted to check that [if] he had found the intended scent there. http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INFORMATION-SERVICE.htm
The dogs tracked her alive scent from the front door. Eddie alerted to death scent on the opposite patio side/garden. Madeleine's last known outdoor journey at 5.30 was from the tapas bar and around the path to the front door where the tracking dogs started their search from. One dog did end up at the entrance.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: sadie on May 04, 2014, 11:16:34 PM
Apologies if someone has already pointed this out but how does Mark Williams-Thomas explain the open window and shutter if it was a woke and wandered scenario?
8@??)( Good thinking , John
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: valeria on May 05, 2014, 08:11:19 AM
maybe a burglar opened the window from outside but eventually decided not enter into apartment and the noise woke up the child. In this case could madeleine have left via front door?????
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on May 05, 2014, 09:15:01 AM
maybe a burglar opened the window from outside but eventually decided not enter into apartment and the noise woke up the child. In this case could madeleine have left via front door?????
It has been shown that it is possible to lift the shutter from outside.
Heriberto Janosch González has put forward the theory that Madeleine could have approached the window and has demonstrated that she could easily have been lifted out without the apartment being entered.
I don't think Madeleine could have exited through the front door without being taken through it by someone, and no-one has put forward a theory to explain how she could have gone that way on her own.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on May 05, 2014, 06:46:46 PM
It has been shown that it is possible to lift the shutter from outside.
Heriberto Janosch González has put forward the theory that Madeleine could have approached the window and has demonstrated that she could easily have been lifted out without the apartment being entered.
I don't think Madeleine could have exited through the front door without being taken through it by someone, and no-one has put forward a theory to explain how she could have gone that way on her own.
The front door could be opened quite easily from the inside. A nearly 4-year-old who regularly used that exit would have had no difficulty.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: sadie on May 05, 2014, 07:38:31 PM
Had she done so, then surely there would have been forensic evidence of Madeleines DNA on the door?
I wonder why she left the window and shutters open ... but closed the front door ? Most kids wouldn't have bothered with either !
I very much doubt she went out that way and left Ccat behind.
It was pitch black there .... very frightening for a little girl
if the child went outside this way the door could have been close by the air, i suppose. Are there forensic reports about the front door ? likewise are there about the car park? not only the one in front of the apartment but all the car parks in the vicinity. Apologize if these isuues are already known...i am new in this case.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on May 06, 2014, 09:22:41 PM
Some would argue that Madeliene DID walk out of the apartment- there is no evidence to say she didn't. Yet.
The Rug should be pulled because no one is going to put their hands up and say 'WE did it'. Simples.
Portugal can chose how it spends it's money- none of your business.
In fact the woke and wandered theory has gained much support by many former detectives who have studied the case. The troubleshooter whom Mark Warner brought in within hours of Madeleine's disappearance also cites this as a distinct possibility. After all, wasn't it a missing child that they spent hours looking for initially and not an abducted one?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 19, 2015, 12:33:12 PM
In fact the woke and wandered theory has gained much support by many former detectives who have studied the case. The troubleshooter whom Mark Warner brought in within hours of Madeleine's disappearance also cites this as a distinct possibility. After all, wasn't it a missing child that they spent hours looking for initially and not an abducted one?
Woke up and wandered from this bed? She forgot to take her precious CC which Eddie alerted to and the pink blanket disappeared. The McCanns contradicted each other. Gerry said she was asleep on top of the covers and the other said under.
Woke up and wandered from this bed? She forgot to take her precious CC which Eddie alerted to and the pink blanket disappeared. The McCanns contradicted each other. Gerry said she was asleep on top of the covers and the other said under.
Well Carlymichelle, without the abduction, where else do the Police look ?
If and it is a bit if, she was abducted, it was a devious plan since there were members of the group wandering around constantly. No one is going to go to that bother just to kill her so I would rule that out. Searching scrubland down near the beach was a complete waste of time imo. It was searched by many people on the 4/5/6 May 2007 and it was a live child they were looking for.
eta Benice. SY have found nothing which can determined what happened to Maddie and that's the truth of it.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on March 19, 2015, 02:06:37 PM
She didn't go out via the patio. The open window and shutter have never been proven.
As far as SY is concerned they have been proven. They believe the evidence of the eye witnesses i.e. Kate and Gerry McCann etc. If they did not believe them they would not have been able to rule them out as suspects.
The fact that some members of the public completely unconnected to the case don't want to believe them is irrelevant and is proof of nothing except their own personal opinions.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 19, 2015, 02:09:00 PM
If and it is a bit if, she was abducted, it was a devious plan since there were members of the group wandering around constantly. No one is going to go to that bother just to kill her so I would rule that out. Searching scrubland down near the beach was a complete waste of time imo. It was searched by many people on the 4/5/6 May 2007 and it was a live child they were looking for.
eta Benice. SY have found nothing which can determined what happened to Maddie and that's the truth of it.
Fair points.
I believe you tend to follow the possibility she got out of the apartment and consequently disappeared.
It seems a more than possible alternative.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: carlymichelle on March 19, 2015, 02:12:19 PM
I believe you tend to follow the possibility she got out of the apartment and consequently disappeared.
It seems a more than possible alternative.
no matter what did happen the mcanns are a 100% responsible for leaving 3 toddlers alone where anything could happen and did very selfish parenting imo
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 19, 2015, 02:13:05 PM
As far as SY is concerned they have been proven. They believe the evidence of the eye witnesses i.e. Kate and Gerry McCann etc. If they did not believe them they would not have been able to rule them out as suspects.
The fact that some members of the public completely unconnected to the case don't want to believe them is irrelevant and is proof of nothing except their own personal opinions.
Eye witnesses ???
Were they there when Madeleine disappeared ?
How can you rule people out, when the crime is not determined.
and you are aware of course, 'witnesses' don't always tell the truth.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 19, 2015, 02:14:18 PM
no matter what did happen the mcanns are a 100% responsible for leaving 3 toddlers alone where anything could happen and did very selfish parenting imo
That Carlymichelle remains the essential truth.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: carlymichelle on March 19, 2015, 02:17:42 PM
As far as SY is concerned they have been proven. They believe the evidence of the eye witnesses i.e. Kate and Gerry McCann etc. If they did not believe them they would not have been able to rule them out as suspects.
The fact that some members of the public completely unconnected to the case don't want to believe them is irrelevant and is proof of nothing except their own personal opinions.
You only have Kate McCanns say so which is uncorroborated so worthless. Since the only marks on the window were her own fingerprints then what can be inferred is that she opened or closed it. Under those circumstances, any detective worth his salt would at the very least be suspicious.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Anna on March 19, 2015, 02:33:46 PM
no so when mcann supporters insist she was abducted it makes me puzzled why do they insist she was abducted?? like it is a good thing??
Nobody thinks that her disappearance was a good thing, Carli. What do you think would be a better/kinder explanation for her disappearance. Do you think murder or accidental death would be better? Do you not believe the police are looking for Smithman amongst others who may have taken/abducted, Maddie?
We have heard nothing of the progress made by OG, because of the Secrecy laws, so how can we know what they have found or achieved?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on March 19, 2015, 02:49:44 PM
As far as SY is concerned they have been proven. They believe the evidence of the eye witnesses i.e. Kate and Gerry McCann etc. If they did not believe them they would not have been able to rule them out as suspects.
The fact that some members of the public completely unconnected to the case don't want to believe them is irrelevant and is proof of nothing except their own personal opinions.
Why would an abductor/burglar open the shutters/window? If they went in through the window they were at risk of being met by three screaming children wakened by the shutters being raised.
If they went in using a key or by the patio doors they risked waking three children by raising noisy shutters from the inside; three screaming children. They also risked coming eye to eye with a parent doing a 'listening at the window check', which Matthew Oldfield did at 9pm.
To those who admire SY's detecting skills;
When they (probably) ruled out Tannerman they said he was taking his child home from the night creche. If you know the geography of the area, did you never wonder where he had been? He was heading TOWARDS the night creche on a cold and windy night with a pyjama clad child who had apparently been picked up from the night creche in Rua Direita, carried along R Joaquim Teixeira, R Primairo da Maio and into R Dr Agnostino da Silva. In other words, in a large circle. Google maps will confirm. Yes indeed, SY are indeed great detectives.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 29, 2015, 05:01:49 PM
Apologies if someone has already pointed this out but how does Mark Williams-Thomas explain the open window and shutter if it was a woke and wandered scenario?
A very good point. MWT's theory, as he he presents it, has two big faults... 1. It gives no explanation for the open window and shutter. 2. It gives no convincing reason for leaving the apartment.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on September 29, 2015, 05:47:20 PM
A very good point. MWT's theory, as he he presents it, has two big faults... 1. It gives no explanation for the open window and shutter. 2. It gives no convincing reason for leaving the apartment.
Girl's Case 'May Solve McCann Mystery' 11:41, UK, Wednesday 27 February 2008
By Alex Watts
Portuguese detectives have been urged to ditch their case against Gerry and Kate McCann and re-open the investigation into a girl who disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine.
Crime expert Mark Williams-Thomas believes there are far too many similarities between the two cases for it not to be a strong line of police inquiry.
Mr Williams-Thomas, a former detective who is now a child protection specialist, said: "I can't accept that Gerry and Kate as parents of the child could have been involved in her murder - even based on the fact that over 90% of murders are domestic-related.
"What I have difficulty in understanding is they would have killed her and stored her body for at least 25 days and left no evidence.
"At the very least the body would have started to decompose, especially in a hot country. And there was a huge risk of someone finding that body."
He believes the answer to the case may lie in the disappearance of an eight-year-old Portuguese girl in 2004.
Joana Cipriano vanished from a village just seven miles from Praia da Luz, where Madeleine disappeared.
Neither body has been found.
Joana's mother and uncle were jailed for her murder, but five police officers have now been accused of forcing false confessions out of them.
Mr Williams-Thomas believes that because of the huge doubts over the convictions, whoever abducted Joana is more than likely to be behind Madeleine's disappearance.
He said he could not understand why the police are pursuing their "ludicrous" investigation into the McCanns, when such a strong line of inquiry remains open.
He added: "There's not a single case in the UK where two children who are unknown to each other have been abducted or disappeared within a period of four years in a seven-mile radius.
"On that basis it has to be a serious line of inquiry to eliminate it as a huge coincidence.
"Portugal is a small country with very, very few abductions so two young girls vanishing out of thin air with their bodies never being recovered is something that needs to be investigated."
Joana vanished on September 12, 2004, after setting off from home in the village of Figueira to collect groceries. She never returned.
Like Madeleine McCann's case, the police investigation got off to a bad start. They failed to seal off the house where she was last seen.
Joana's mother Leonor and her brother Joao were jailed for 16 years for her murder.
But they claim they were set up and police have been named as suspects in their "torture".
Cipriano alleges police beat her to make her confess. A photograph of her heavily-bruised face was published in Portuguese newspapers.
She says the interrogation took place without her lawyer present and without the knowledge of the public prosecutor.
Police claimed Joana discovered Cipriano and her brother having sex when she returned with the groceries.
They said the pair were afraid Joana would tell what she saw and killed her.
Mr Williams-Thomas says because of the doubt over the safety of the convictions, the case should be re-opened.
But to compound the Madeleine investigation further, a senior detective in the hunt is one of the five officers alleged to have extracted the confessions.
Goncalo Amaral, who is number three in the Madeleine inquiry, and his officers have been accused of torture, omission of evidence and falsification of documents.
Portugal's Ministerio Publico has not revealed who has been accused of which offence.
Mr Williams-Thomas said: "This casts huge doubt in my mind about the integrity of the investigating officer.
"Even if we work on the basis that he is innocent, given this allegation against him, he shouldn't have anything to do with the Madeleine investigation."
He stressed: "There are so many similarities between the cases it has to be eliminated.
"Therefore to consider solely Kate and Gerry McCann as suspects rather than considering all the options is ludicrous."
The former detective also heavily criticised the Portuguese police inquiry into Madeleine's disappearance.
Commenting on their emergency application to seize Gerry McCann's laptop computer and reportedly even Madeleine's favourite toy Cuddle Cat, he said: "I think it's amazing that they haven't already seized them.
"This is the whole problem with the case. They are treating Kate and Gerry McCann as suspects but aren't dealing with them as suspects.
"Why didn't they do that when she went missing? They are back-tracking.
"They are trying to recover the situation, forensically and evidentally, they lost at the first opportunity."
Another crime expert believes even if the police do charge the McCanns they will struggle to convict them - because Madeleine's body is still missing and there is no evidence that has been made public to suggest she is even dead.
Desmond Thomas, a former deputy head of Hampshire CID who is now a forensic management consultant, says he does not believe anyone will be found guilty unless a body or weapon is discovered.
He said: "I think the Portuguese police are struggling. Of course, we cannot be sure about exactly what is in the dossier they have prepared.
"But from what we know this far, if I was bringing the charges, I would be nervous about it being successful.
"The only way I can see anyone being successfully charged is if the body is found and they can link it clearly to them."
This may be some solace to the McCanns, but then Portuguese courts may have a different conviction rate to UK courts.
After all, detectives managed to "solve" Joana's murder, and there was no body or weapon found.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 29, 2015, 05:48:07 PM
An interesting video in which ExScotlandYard detective John O'Connor proposes a theory that the child wandered out the balcony door and to the supermarket carpark and was abducted opportunistically from there. O'Connor's theory, just like MWT's theory, has the same two faults ..... 1. No explanation for the open window and shutter. 2. No real reason for child leaving apartment. www.justpamalam.co.uk/Sky/oconnor_120507_1650.flv
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 29, 2015, 06:14:00 PM
Williams-Thomas and O'Connor both correctly pointed out that opportunistic abduction is far more likely than planned abduction.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 29, 2015, 06:27:04 PM
No evidence of an open window or shutter before the last check. Madeleine would be heard if she could make a sound. These were deserted streets where you can easily be heard. Running to the next room and screaming for help she would be heard. Fenn was in so there's only one credible conclusion - she could not be heard so she wasn't.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on September 29, 2015, 06:31:18 PM
If she had left of her own accord, is it likely that she would have closed the patio door behind her?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 29, 2015, 06:38:14 PM
No evidence of an open window or shutter before the last check. Madeleine would be heard if she could make a sound. These were deserted streets where you can easily be heard. Running to the next room and screaming for help she would be heard. Fenn was in so there's only one credible conclusion - she could not be heard so she wasn't.
As a small child were you any good at the game hide-and-seek Pathfinder?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 29, 2015, 06:49:56 PM
May I ask how you reach the conclusion "both correctly pointed out that opportunistic abduction is far more likely than planned abduction"?
I'm seeing lightweight theories with errors and holes.
Have I missed something?
Both of them believe that opportunistic abduction is much more likely than planned abduction. Williams-Thomas gives as an example the Whiting case. O'Connor gives as an example the Huntley case. Both those cases were completely opportunistic abduction.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on September 29, 2015, 06:52:59 PM
Both of them believe that opportunistic abduction is much more likely than planned abduction. William's-Thomas gives as an example the Whiting case. O'Connor gives as an example the Huntley case. Both those cases were completely opportunistic abduction.
Yes, but why should they be considered correct? Is that just your opinion?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on September 29, 2015, 06:54:37 PM
Both of them believe that opportunistic abduction is much more likely than planned abduction. Williams-Thomas gives as an example the Whiting case. O'Connor gives as an example the Huntley case. Both those cases were completely opportunistic abduction.
The Huntley case wasn't so much an abduction. The girls entered Huntley's house voluntarily and he murdered them.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on September 29, 2015, 07:01:05 PM
Both of them believe that opportunistic abduction is much more likely than planned abduction. Williams-Thomas gives as an example the Whiting case. O'Connor gives as an example the Huntley case. Both those cases were completely opportunistic abduction.
As you have previously pointed out neither man addressed the situation regarding the open window and raised shutter. An interesting omission.
Opportunistic abduction when a child is dragged from the street happens far more often than a child being abducted from bed for obvious reasons. In both, the actual abduction is very rarely witnessed.
However I would suggest that it is improbable an opportunist would be prowling the streets at that time of night on the off chance of finding a child wandering on its own.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 29, 2015, 07:01:41 PM
Yes, but why should they be considered correct? Is that just your opinion?
They are experts basing their PDL theories on real solved cases. Do you not agree that opportunist abduction is far more frequent than planned abduction? Another example is the Dell Valle case.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on September 29, 2015, 07:04:36 PM
They are experts basing their PDL theories on real solved cases. Do you not agree that opportunist abduction is far more frequent than planned abduction? Another example is the Dell Valle case.
I have no idea, but it doesn't make their 'expert opinion' correct just because they say it is so. It is merely yet another possibility.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 29, 2015, 07:08:37 PM
They are experts basing their PDL theories on real solved cases. Do you not agree that opportunist abduction is far more frequent than planned abduction? Another example is the Dell Valle case.
Smart people follow evidence not theories.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 29, 2015, 07:09:53 PM
(snip)... would have had the presence of mind to slip on her shoes.
Thanks Brietta, the shoes are a third gaping hole in both the Williams-Thomas and O'Connor theories. 1. No explanation of open window and shutter. 2. No pressing reason for child to leave apartment. 3. No explanation of why child did not put shoes on. Three gaping holes which mean that both theories are, in the form they are presented, a load of rubbish.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on September 29, 2015, 07:14:38 PM
I have no idea, but it doesn't make their 'expert opinion' correct just because they say it is so. It is merely yet another possibility.
One incontrovertible fact, to whit a child vanished into thin air, has spawned more theories and opinions than Job had boils; they cannot all be right &%+((Ł
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on September 29, 2015, 07:17:24 PM
Thanks Brietta, the shoes are a third gaping hole in both the Williams-Thomas and O'Connor theories. 1. No explanation of open window and shutter. 2. No pressing reason for child to leave apartment. 3. No explanation of why child did not put shoes on. Three gaping holes which mean that both theories are, in the form they are presented, a load of rubbish.
They're not rubbish, they're implying there was staging afterwards. As does Danny Collins in his book.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on September 29, 2015, 07:26:31 PM
What determines whether one is an expert or not then in your view?
I suppose one who is highly qualified in his field and is recognised as such by his peer group. E.g. Gerry is a highly qualified expert in cardiology and is recognised as such within his professional group.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 29, 2015, 07:29:20 PM
Good point but IMO silently implying staging = failing to provide a plausible straightforward explanation.
Collins doesn't do it silently, he comes right out and states there was staging. Then he says they were "naive" to do it. The other two presumably think something similar. Didn't Donal MacIntyre also say the same thing? (I think so). That's a lot of people suspecting 'naive' staging occurred.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 29, 2015, 08:01:33 PM
The Huntley case wasn't so much an abduction. The girls entered Huntley's house voluntarily and he murdered them.
It depends on your definition. In the Huntley case they were tricked into entering a residence and then forcibly detained so IMO that's abduction. Do you think the Del Valle case (Huelva, tricked into entering a residence) was also not abduction? And do you think the Hamilton case (Donegal, tricked into entering a vehicle) was also not abduction?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on September 29, 2015, 08:11:55 PM
Is it not removal to another place against one's will that would define abduction ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 29, 2015, 08:13:26 PM
Thanks Brietta, the shoes are a third gaping hole in both the Williams-Thomas and O'Connor theories. 1. No explanation of open window and shutter. 2. No pressing reason for child to leave apartment. 3. No explanation of why child did not put shoes on. Three gaping holes which mean that both theories are, in the form they are presented, a load of rubbish.
1. She didn't leave by herself. 2. She didn't leave she was taken. 3. She couldn't.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 29, 2015, 08:22:27 PM
Collins doesn't do it silently, he comes right out and states there was staging. Then he says they were "naive" to do it. The other two presumably think something similar. Didn't Donal MacIntyre also say the same thing? (I think so). That's a lot of people suspecting 'naive' staging occurred.
Good point Lyall, "naive staging" is an interesting theory but IMO it's not what happened, because a simpler direct explanation provides the reason for leaving the room IMO, and also because the 10pm witness account is IMO completely credible.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lyall on September 29, 2015, 08:28:38 PM
Good point Lyall, "naive staging" is an interesting theory but IMO it's not what happened, because a simpler direct explanation provides the reason for leaving the room IMO, and also because the 10pm witness account is IMO completely credible.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that final assertion ?{)(** Your theory is interesting though.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on September 29, 2015, 08:29:34 PM
Have you ever explained what this 'simpler direct explanation' actually is?
Genuine question as I forget what might already have been said on this subject.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on September 29, 2015, 09:05:56 PM
It depends on your definition. In the Huntley case they were tricked into entering a residence and then forcibly detained so IMO that's abduction. Do you think the Del Valle case (Huelva, tricked into entering a residence) was also not abduction? And do you think the Hamilton case (Donegal, tricked into entering a vehicle) was also not abduction?
As you rightly say, definition is key.
In Huntley's case, he was the caretaker of the school Holly and Jessica attended, so they knew him. I can't remember, now, whether he invited them into his house, or whether they called on him. Either way, they entered voluntarily, and since he had malevolent designs, he obviously was never going to let them go.
I would say that was closer to false imprisonment than abduction, but either offence paled into insignificance by comparison with the one he committed, murder.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 29, 2015, 09:19:49 PM
Have you ever explained what this 'simpler direct explanation' actually is?
Genuine question as I forget what might already have been said on this subject.
Yes, the simpler direct explanation is- Window and shutter opened from outside. Incidentally, that fixes the biggest 3 holes in the the Williams-Thomas and O'Connor theories.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 29, 2015, 09:37:21 PM
BTW I have revived this thread to look at expert MWT's theory, and I think you may be very interested in it, because as presented, it discards the dog alerts, and it is an abduction theory.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 29, 2015, 09:52:59 PM
Both of them believe that opportunistic abduction is much more likely than planned abduction. Williams-Thomas gives as an example the Whiting case. O'Connor gives as an example the Huntley case. Both those cases were completely opportunistic abduction.
Thank you for replying, Pegasus.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Admin on September 29, 2015, 10:04:51 PM
BTW I have revived this thread to look at expert MWT's theory, and I think you may be very interested in it, because as presented, it discards the dog alerts, and it is an abduction theory.
Abducted after she awoke and wandered? My own view on this is that if she awoke and wandered she was more likely to have met with an unfortunate accident than she was to have been abducted.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 29, 2015, 10:12:36 PM
Lightweight is good. Errors and holes aren't. What do you think is the single biggest error/hole in MWT's theory?
If I have got this correct ... 1) Madeleine wakes and wanders. Please note, I consider this possible, but improbable. 2) An opportunistic predator in Luz sees Madeleine and snatches her. On this point, I am in disbelief. It is simply that, everything would point to Madeleine heading downhill the short distance to the Tapas area, with which she was familiar (high tea, playtime and pool) OR taking the shortcut to the Mini Club in Ocean Club reception, where she spent most of her time. Both journeys are short, so this opportunistic predator had to be faster than the Flash. 3) On top of 1 and 2 we have to have staging. The possibility of staging exists, so I am not ruling it out.
However, we now have low probability 1 x low probability 2 x low probability 3. Not impossible, but there are more likely scenarios.
I haven't reread the entire thread, but if MWT is the one who had the dogs going totally the wrong way in support of his theory, then I think his credibility as an 'expert' on the case is holed below the waterline about as badly as the Titanic was.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lyall on September 29, 2015, 10:23:51 PM
Have you read the Danny Collins book, Shining?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 29, 2015, 10:38:14 PM
Abducted after she awoke and wandered? My own view on this is that if she awoke and wandered she was more likely to have met with an unfortunate accident than she was to have been abducted.
Agreed. But then one could argue that an accident in a pubic area would be probably discovered.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 29, 2015, 10:53:03 PM
Abducted after she awoke and wandered? My own view on this is that if she awoke and wandered she was more likely to have met with an unfortunate accident than she was to have been abducted.
An unfortunate accident that rendered her invisible? What sort of an accident is it possible for her to have had leaving not one single trace?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 30, 2015, 12:07:08 AM
If I have got this correct ... 1) Madeleine wakes and wanders. Please note, I consider this possible, but improbable. 2) An opportunistic predator in Luz sees Madeleine and snatches her. On this point, I am in disbelief. It is simply that, everything would point to Madeleine heading downhill the short distance to the Tapas area, with which she was familiar (high tea, playtime and pool) OR taking the shortcut to the Mini Club in Ocean Club reception, where she spent most of her time. Both journeys are short, so this opportunistic predator had to be faster than the Flash. 3) On top of 1 and 2 we have to have staging. The possibility of staging exists, so I am not ruling it out.
However, we now have low probability 1 x low probability 2 x low probability 3. Not impossible, but there are more likely scenarios.
I haven't reread the entire thread, but if MWT is the one who had the dogs going totally the wrong way in support of his theory, then I think his credibility as an 'expert' on the case is holed below the waterline about as badly as the Titanic was.
1. Yes that was MWT's theory, and O'Connor's theory too. 2. Both theories have exit out balcony door then downhill towards tapas reception entrance (one of the theories continues further downhill to supermarket carpark). 3. Neither theory offers any explanation for the open window and shutter.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 30, 2015, 12:36:43 AM
An unfortunate accident that rendered her invisible? What sort of an accident is it possible for her to have had leaving not one single trace?
Just one trace.
Human blood at Quinta dos Figos, Luz, tested 6 May 2007. Entered the evidence chain, then seems to have disappeared.
Suspect in this scenario - drunk driver, of which Luz has many.
Problem is that Quinta dos Figos is uphill from 5A, in an area that Madeleine had not visited, so the blood is probably from a drunk falling over on the pavement.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 30, 2015, 12:39:45 AM
There is a path going diagonally from Rua FGDMartins to supermarket carpark, is that downhill? And another question, is driving OTL more common there than in UK?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 30, 2015, 09:19:05 AM
Human blood at Quinta dos Figos, Luz, tested 6 May 2007. Entered the evidence chain, then seems to have disappeared.
Suspect in this scenario - drunk driver, of which Luz has many.
Problem is that Quinta dos Figos is uphill from 5A, in an area that Madeleine had not visited, so the blood is probably from a drunk falling over on the pavement.
Then my statement stands - not one trace.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on September 30, 2015, 09:37:11 AM
If you could serve up a 30 word précis I would be genuinely grateful for the time that you have saved me.
Not sure if someone has beaten me to the punch, here, but in summary, Collins favours woke, wandered and snatched by a paedophile.
Collins' book was written well before the files were released and he relates one, apparent, incident I can find no reference to anywhere else where Gerry is supposed to have chased Madeleine and caught up with her in someone's garden (if I recall correctly).
No clue where Collins got that from ....
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2015, 10:10:05 AM
Do posters on here recall the names of the books found in the mccanns apartment ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: carlymichelle on September 30, 2015, 10:12:51 AM
Not sure if someone has beaten me to the punch, here, but in summary, Collins favours woke, wandered and snatched by a paedophile.
Collins' book was written well before the files were released and he relates one, apparent, incident I can find no reference to anywhere else where Gerry is supposed to have chased Madeleine and caught up with her in someone's garden (if I recall correctly).
No clue where Collins got that from ....
According to 'locals', as reported in Sept 2007, Madeleine ran away at bedtime one evening. Gerald's 10th May statement was somewhat different.
In a further twist, locals now claim that Madeleine did not always settle well. One evening they allege she ran away into the paths between the apartments, hiding for half an hour when it was time for bed. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-474656/Madeleine-missing-hour-did-McCanns-check-children.html
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-474656/Madeleine-missing-hour-did-McCanns-check-children.html#ixzz3nDEUiM00 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Angelo222 on September 30, 2015, 10:33:09 AM
An unfortunate accident that rendered her invisible? What sort of an accident is it possible for her to have had leaving not one single trace?
A child run over at night might leave no trace since not every pedestrian related RTA results in blood loss. A motorist could lift her intending to seek help but then find she is deceased so panics and puts her in his car. That then becomes an abduction of a deceased child.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on September 30, 2015, 10:38:01 AM
I really cannot imagine an almost four year old, leaving through the patio doors, closing them behind her, opening a child gate, closing it behind her on the top of steps in the dark, going down the steps and through another gate closing that behind her, all in her bare feet.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on September 30, 2015, 10:47:09 AM
I really cannot imagine an almost four year old, leaving through the patio doors, closing them behind her, opening a child gate, closing it behind her on the top of steps in the dark, going down the steps and through another gate closing that behind her, all in her bare feet.
That's exactly what Kate says in her book
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 30, 2015, 10:53:15 AM
A child run over at night might leave no trace since not every pedestrian related RTA results in blood loss. A motorist could lift her intending to seek help but then find she is deceased so panics and puts her in his car. That then becomes an abduction of a deceased child.
Which in turn becomes a criminal act, not simply an unfortunate accident.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2015, 11:09:15 AM
According to 'locals', as reported in Sept 2007, Madeleine ran away at bedtime one evening. Gerald's 10th May statement was somewhat different.
In a further twist, locals now claim that Madeleine did not always settle well. One evening they allege she ran away into the paths between the apartments, hiding for half an hour when it was time for bed. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-474656/Madeleine-missing-hour-did-McCanns-check-children.html
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-474656/Madeleine-missing-hour-did-McCanns-check-children.html#ixzz3nDEUiM00 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
That's where he got it from.
OK thanks.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 30, 2015, 12:21:08 PM
anyone who is prepared to give the "Woke and Wandered" theory any credence obviously has as much faith in the dog alerts as I have...
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2015, 12:22:24 PM
anyone who is prepared to give the "Woke and Wandered" theory any credence obviously has as much faith in the dog alerts as I have...
So MWT has little faith in the alerts
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on September 30, 2015, 01:33:37 PM
What else did MWT say?
I don't believe a paedophile was watching the apartment nor do I believe an offender entered the apartment - this would be too high-risk.
I believe the so-called sightings in other countries, although genuinely intended, are a distraction and prove to be of little value after the initial two weeks. Who is going to openly walk out with the most wanted child in the world?
While trafficking of children is a far greater problem than is acknowledged, Madeleine does not fit the profile.
So one or more of the parents did have the opportunity - but what would be the motive? Could it have been an accident or a deliberate act? http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 30, 2015, 01:40:28 PM
According to 'locals', as reported in Sept 2007, Madeleine ran away at bedtime one evening. Gerald's 10th May statement was somewhat different.
In a further twist, locals now claim that Madeleine did not always settle well. One evening they allege she ran away into the paths between the apartments, hiding for half an hour when it was time for bed. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-474656/Madeleine-missing-hour-did-McCanns-check-children.html
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-474656/Madeleine-missing-hour-did-McCanns-check-children.html#ixzz3nDEUiM00 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Maybe the Mail report is just a highly distorted account, at wrong time of day, of the real event in the statement? "to place the children in the respective creches" means it happened one day at either about 9AM or at about 2PM. If it was any big length of time it would mean late arrival at two creches, either at start of morning or after lunch, and I don't think the records show that.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 30, 2015, 01:47:31 PM
A child run over at night might leave no trace since not every pedestrian related RTA results in blood loss. A motorist could lift her intending to seek help but then find she is deceased so panics and puts her in his car. That then becomes an abduction of a deceased child.
There are many RTAs where a motorist leaves the scene, especially if drunk, but it is extremely rare to remove a victim.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 30, 2015, 02:13:43 PM
"I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment. She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar. It was at this point that she was most likely abducted" http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
Writing in May 2008 MWT obviously was aware of the UK dogs, and by giving no mention of them in his theory, (nor anywhere in the article !), it is obvious IMO that he treated them as meaningless. Do you think his theory is any possibility of being partly correct Dave?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on September 30, 2015, 02:29:10 PM
"I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment. She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar. It was at this point that she was most likely abducted" http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
Writing in May 2008 MWT obviously was aware of the UK dogs, and by giving no mention of them in his theory, (nor anywhere in the article !), it is obvious IMO that he treated them as meaningless. Do you think his theory is any possibility of being partly correct Dave?
He also completely ignored the open window/shutters story. In fact he states that no-one entered the apartment in his opinion- too high risk. If it was too high risk to enter the apartment that suggests it would have been too high risk to open shutters from outside. His lack of explanation for the open window and shutters suggests to me an incomplete ill thought-out theory.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 30, 2015, 02:38:02 PM
Highly recommended video of O'C's theory - watch the whole thing - lots of interesting deductions. This man is an expert, former scotland yard, he thinks clearly and sensibly. He dismisses the "organised international abduction gang entering apartment" theory as media fantasy, and proposes a simple woke and wandered then opportunist abducted theory which is far less fantasy-like. http://www.justpamalam.co.uk/Sky/oconnor_120507_1650.flv (This video is no longer at the original news site and we can only watch it now because someone had the foresight to preserve it. If anyone here the ability it might be good to make a back up copy).
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 30, 2015, 02:58:13 PM
He also completely ignored the open window/shutters story. In fact he states that no-one entered the apartment in his opinion- too high risk. If it was too high risk to enter the apartment that suggests it would have been too high risk to open shutters from outside. His lack of explanation for the open window and shutters suggests to me an incomplete ill thought-out theory.
Yes it is incomplete in 3 ways because it does not explain the open window and shutter, it does not explain the shoes, and it does not explain any strong reason for leaving the apartment.
All three problems are solved by one simple improvement to the MWT theory. A burglar opened the window and shutter but fled as soon as he/she realised there was someone in the apartment. With that simple improvement, instantly the window and shutter are explained, the shoes are explained, and a strong reason for leaving the apartment is explained. Three holes in MWT theory are fixed by one elementary deduction.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 30, 2015, 03:07:13 PM
There is a path going diagonally from Rua FGDMartins to supermarket carpark, is that downhill?
And another question, is driving OTL more common there than in UK?
The path I think is near horizontal. The drop in height on the west side of Baptista is mainly taken care of by a long ramp from the front door of Baptista to the car park that is BEYOND the Baptista car park.
However, to be certain, I will add this little trek to a list of places not covered well by Google that I intend to get around to photographing when the weather gets a little cooler.
OTL. In Luz, there are a number of ex-pats who combine cheap alcohol, a lack of permanent police presence in town, and a realisation that the main check points are easily avoided. If my understanding is correct, it is not normal to lose one's licence for drunk driving, nor is there a totting-up procedure, merely a fine.
Presumably at some point, e.g. injuring someone, this spills over into a more serious charge.
However, the previous occupant of the villa we are in had a reputation for driving drunk and causing dame to property. All she ever got, it appears, was a fine.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 30, 2015, 03:10:56 PM
The path I think is near horizontal. The drop in height on the west side of Baptista is mainly taken care of by a long ramp from the front door of Baptista to the car park that is BEYOND the Baptista car park.
However, to be certain, I will add this little trek to a list of places not covered well by Google that I intend to get around to photographing when the weather gets a little cooler....(snip)
Thanks. Someone walking south along westside pavement of Rua Martins can (1) fork right onto the diagonal path to supermarket carpark, or can (2) cross Rua Martins to eastside pavement (because westside pavement soon ends) and continue to the junction at the lower end of Rua Martins. Which way would instinctively be chosen? Also if someone goes on the second option and is now walking down eastside pavement and arrives at that road junction at southeast corner of supermarket, which road is more downhill - fork left or turn right?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 30, 2015, 03:32:02 PM
Not sure if someone has beaten me to the punch, here, but in summary, Collins favours woke, wandered and snatched by a paedophile.
Collins' book was written well before the files were released and he relates one, apparent, incident I can find no reference to anywhere else where Gerry is supposed to have chased Madeleine and caught up with her in someone's garden (if I recall correctly).
No clue where Collins got that from ....
Thank you for the summary, much appreciated.
If the book was written well before the files were released then an obvious danger is that some content would be based on media speculation.
This is Gerry in his statement on 10 May 2007 - "That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they were leaving the residence through the main door, to place the children in the respective crčches, MADELEINE left running to the left, to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they walked down next to the most remote end of one of those blocks, not knowing exactly which one, and the three children got into one of the gardens at the back. Then they walked down the inside alley at the back, next to the hedges, up to the street that led to the secondary reception."
The question put to Gerry is not recorded, but it looks like the PJ were trying to ascertain why the dogs had taken the path they did. Gerry's path does not match the dogs' path.
However, it suggests that by 10th May, there was media speculation on the dogs' path. It looks like Collins managed to get a more accurate version of what Gerry had said, from whatever source.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 30, 2015, 04:09:16 PM
Thanks. Someone walking south along westside pavement of Rua Martins can (1) fork right onto the diagonal path to supermarket carpark, or can (2) cross Rua Martins to eastside pavement (because westside pavement soon ends) and continue to the junction at the lower end of Rua Martins. Which way would instinctively be chosen? Also if someone goes on the second option and is now walking down eastside pavement and arrives at that road junction at southeast corner of supermarket, which road is more downhill - fork left or turn right?
The westside pavement is continuous, so the decision tree is somewhat different.
First, I can't see any reason to believe Madeleine was familiar with the path that forks right towards Baptista's front (west) entrance.
It brings into question as to whether she was familiar with Baptista's eastern entrance on Martin's, e.g. being taken there on her way to or from the Mini Club. Again, I have seen nothing to suggest this. In any case, Baptista shut at 8 that night, so even if she tried that, there was no way in.
That suggests a path downhill beyond Baptista to the junction there. Left is downhill again, right is nearly flat until close to the end. Once again, I have seen nothing to suggest Madeleine was familiar with the route to the right, so it seems unlikely.
The route to the left was one she almost certainly was familiar with. Before the short cut to the ŇC 24 hour reception was discovered, the obvious route was down Martins, turn left onto Rua Direita and walk to the OC.
I have not seen confirmation of this in the files, but if that was not the route taken initially, I cannot see anything else making sense.
The Mini Club was where Madeleine was taken by her parents, where Madeleine had fun with other children of her own age, where she was looked after by grown-ups, and where her parents would come to get her and take her home.
I am not having any problems per se with the route so far.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 30, 2015, 06:54:34 PM
"I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment. She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar. It was at this point that she was most likely abducted" http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
Writing in May 2008 MWT obviously was aware of the UK dogs, and by giving no mention of them in his theory, (nor anywhere in the article !), it is obvious IMO that he treated them as meaningless. Do you think his theory is any possibility of being partly correct Dave?
could have been an attempted break in via window...burglar stopped when seeing children inside...Maddie woke and wandered...it's possible...what is just as important is that MWT is prepared to ignore that alerts...that says a lot
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 30, 2015, 07:19:24 PM
could have been an attempted break in via window...burglar stopped when seeing children inside...Maddie woke and wandered...it's possible...what is just as important is that MWT is prepared to ignore that alerts...that says a lot
Yes ... attempted entry via window...burglar stopped when seeing children inside. Ten words (so simple that Amaral/Rebelo/Redwood didn't think of them) explain the open window and shutter and give a reason for waking, leaving that room, and possibly even venturing outside. So the MWT and O'C theories become possible.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on September 30, 2015, 07:43:29 PM
The westside pavement is continuous, so the decision tree is somewhat different.
First, I can't see any reason to believe Madeleine was familiar with the path that forks right towards Baptista's front (west) entrance.
It brings into question as to whether she was familiar with Baptista's eastern entrance on Martin's, e.g. being taken there on her way to or from the Mini Club. Again, I have seen nothing to suggest this. In any case, Baptista shut at 8 that night, so even if she tried that, there was no way in.
That suggests a path downhill beyond Baptista to the junction there. Left is downhill again, right is nearly flat until close to the end. Once again, I have seen nothing to suggest Madeleine was familiar with the route to the right, so it seems unlikely.
The route to the left was one she almost certainly was familiar with. Before the short cut to the ŇC 24 hour reception was discovered, the obvious route was down Martins, turn left onto Rua Direita and walk to the OC.
I have not seen confirmation of this in the files, but if that was not the route taken initially, I cannot see anything else making sense.
The Mini Club was where Madeleine was taken by her parents, where Madeleine had fun with other children of her own age, where she was looked after by grown-ups, and where her parents would come to get her and take her home.
I am not having any problems per se with the route so far.
Thankyou ShiningInLuz. You are correct the westside pavement is continuous I apologise. Agreed not the diagonal path to supermarket carpark (because not downhill and not a known route). So continue down Rua Martins and at the end turn left on Rua Teixiera (is downhill and is a known route).
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 30, 2015, 08:01:08 PM
He also completely ignored the open window/shutters story. In fact he states that no-one entered the apartment in his opinion- too high risk. If it was too high risk to enter the apartment that suggests it would have been too high risk to open shutters from outside. His lack of explanation for the open window and shutters suggests to me an incomplete ill thought-out theory.
I would suggest he refrianed for what ever reason.
I have always held the view that the shutter/window thing was staged to protect the parents reputation. They were faced with huge backlach of hatred, even displayed today by some, for leaving their children alone. They had to create a boogie man- to absolve them from blame or guilt and it worked perfectly as we see.
They created themselves as victims and tried to minimise their daughters suffering.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 30, 2015, 08:05:56 PM
I would suggest he refrianed for what ever reason.
I have always held the view that the shutter/window thing was staged to protect the parents reputation. They were faced with huge backlach of hatred, even displayed today by some, for leaving their children alone. They had to create a boogie man- to absolve them from blame or guilt and it worked perfectly as we see.
They created themselves as victims and tried to minimise their daughters suffering.
I haven't seen any huge backlash of hatred...you must have some strange friends...everyone I have spoken to feels sympathetic
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 30, 2015, 08:12:52 PM
I haven't seen any huge backlash of hatred...you must have some strange friends...everyone I have spoken to feels sympathetic
Well you must be someone else posting as Davel. Because all the supporters constanly quote from H aters sites. and even class non believers mentally ill and other nasty names... What about The family demanding online bullies be prosecuted?.. oh Sorry, I forgot, kate n Gerry god and goddess of the masses? Loved and adored by everyone. Heehee.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 30, 2015, 08:15:50 PM
Well you must be someone else posting as Davel. Because all the supporters constanly quote from H aters sites. and even class non believers mentally ill and other nasty names... What about The family demanding online bullies be prosecuted?.. oh Sorry, I forgot, kate n Gerry god and goddess of the masses? Loved and adored by everyone. Heehee.
that's a handful of nutters on the net.....not a huge backlash
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2015, 08:18:31 PM
I haven't seen any huge backlash of hatred...you must have some strange friends...everyone I have spoken to feels sympathetic
Most people have utmost sympathy for Madeleine. but when they know what the mccanns did in unnecessarily endangering their children, they want to know why they have not been charged with at least neglect.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 30, 2015, 08:27:11 PM
Most people have utmost sympathy for Madeleine. but when they know what the mccanns did in unnecessarily endangering their children, they want to know why they have not been charged with at least neglect.
absolute rubbish as usual...unless you have a cite that most people want to know why they have not been charged with neglect...which of course you don't
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2015, 08:35:14 PM
absolute rubbish as usual...unless you have a cite that most people want to know why they have not been charged with neglect...which of course you don't
Not rubbish at all.
Yet you claim people have sympathy for the mccanns. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 30, 2015, 08:37:02 PM
absolute rubbish as usual...unless you have a cite that most people want to know why they have not been charged with neglect...which of course you don't
It would help if you read the post properly. pay particular attention to enbolden words;
They were faced with huge backlach of hatred, even displayed today by some
In other words, IF they had not screamed at the media about jemmied shutters and child being snatched while they sat in what is like a garden like same as other British people...and told the truth. There would have been a backlash and even without them accepting responsibility SOME people have nothing but disgust at their behaviour.
PR job.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2015, 08:39:15 PM
An unfortunate accident that rendered her invisible? What sort of an accident is it possible for her to have had leaving not one single trace?
It's difficult to imagine one in a town, that would leave no trace or tiny clue.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 01, 2015, 01:40:46 AM
@ShiningInLuz On the short section of Rua Teixeira which joins Rua Martins to Rua Direita, halfway is a change in the road surface from tarmac to cobbled. Maybe this is the location where one searcher described road works?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on October 01, 2015, 08:40:48 AM
Most people have utmost sympathy for Madeleine. but when they know what the mccanns did in unnecessarily endangering their children, they want to know why they have not been charged with at least neglect.
Then they need to take it up with Social Services, not hound a family who are going through a traumatic time with the loss of their daughter.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on October 01, 2015, 08:43:38 AM
I came to my conclusion on the basis of what any of my children would do at age almost four, the thought of a child of that age at the top of steps trying to open a child gate or indeed climbing over it in the dark at the top of steps, then if opened turning to close it, just didn't ring true to me.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 01, 2015, 08:49:02 AM
I came to my conclusion on the basis of what any of my children would do at age almost four, the thought of a child of that age at the top of steps trying to open a child gate or indeed climbing over it in the dark at the top of steps, then if opened turning to close it, just didn't ring true to me.
So you are saying a 3/4 year old could not have got out ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on October 01, 2015, 08:53:22 AM
So you are saying a 3/4 year old could not have got out ?
Unlikely to be able to do so without trace. She had to get through the patio sliding door - not reported as being sufficiently open for a child to get through when Kate arrives for her visit. Then she has to get through/over the child gate, which I think opens outwards, so tricky to manage in the dark. Again, gate reported as closed.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 01, 2015, 09:03:16 AM
Unlikely to be able to do so without trace. She had to get through the patio sliding door - not reported as being sufficiently open for a child to get through when Kate arrives for her visit. Then she has to get through/over the child gate, which I think opens outwards, so tricky to manage in the dark. Again, gate reported as closed.
and that assumes Kate Mccann told the truth.
I do recall at the start the mccanns said the doors were locked, and that became changed to the patio door was unlocked.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on October 01, 2015, 09:15:12 AM
So you are saying a 3/4 year old could not have got out ?
I am saying it is highly unlikely a child of that age would open a child gate at the top of steps in the dark then turn and close it behind her.
My children wouldn't open the child gate at the top of the stairs at home in the dark, they would shout from the top of the stairs. Maybe in daylight they would have a go but wouldn't bother to shut it behind them.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 01, 2015, 09:17:29 AM
I am saying it is highly unlikely a child of that age would open a child gate at the top of steps in the dark then turn and close it behind her.
My children wouldn't open the child gate at the top of the stairs at home in the dark, they would shout from the top of the stairs. Maybe in daylight they would have a go but wouldn't bother to shut it behind them.
What about a child half awake trying to find her parents in a poorly lit apartment ?
As to Kate Mccanns accounts of what she 'found'..........................
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on October 01, 2015, 09:19:25 AM
As you realize Lace, Jassi means the mccann supporters.
I do know what jassi meant Stephen, I find it very immature, we are debating the McCann case and there are people who believe the McCann's side of the story or they don't, to keep having some refer to those who believe the McCann story as holding the McCann's up as some sort of saints etc. is just in my opinion so childish. Just debate if you have nothing to say in retaliation then say nothing, or I will just comment back that you seem to idolise Amaral.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on October 01, 2015, 10:02:00 AM
As you realize Lace, Jassi means the mccann supporters.
IMO the McCanns have told the truth. Bearing in mind the fallibilty of memory - whether their memories of what happened are totally accurate, or whether what they have said has been reported/translated accurately is another thing.
It's obvious SY believe them to be truthful, as they would not have ruled them out of the enquiry. Also SY are in the position of being able to investigate/ clarify any discrepancies etc with the actual witnesses concerned. A massive advantage not open to the rest of us but which is always forgotten by some sceptics - who seem to be convinced that the public have exactly the same information/knowledge as SY - not to mention exactly the same expertise as the professional police officers of SY. A totally unrealistic standpoint IMO.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 01, 2015, 10:05:06 AM
IMO the McCanns have told the truth. Bearing in mind the fallibilty of memory - whether their memories of what happened are totally accurate, or whether what they have said has been reported/translated accurately is another thing.
It's obvious SY believe them to be truthful, as they would not have ruled them out of the enquiry. Also SY are in the position of being able to investigate/ clarify any discrepancies etc with the actual witnesses concerned. A massive advantage not open to the rest of us but which is always forgotten by some sceptics - who seem to be convinced that the public have exactly the same information/knowledge as SY - not to mention exactly the same expertise as the professional police officers of SY. A totally unrealistic standpoint IMO.
You believe it is the truth, because you support the mccanns.
In actuality you don't know.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: carlymichelle on October 01, 2015, 10:07:28 AM
You believe it is the truth, because you support the mccanns.
In actuality you don't know.
I have no particular feelings either way about the McCanns. You are fantasizing when you make that ludicrous assertion. I don't like cruel, spiteful people who get pleasure out of other folks misfortune - just as I don't agree with kangaroo courts and lynch mob mentality. I believe in the concept of innocent until proved guilty. I don't believe that anyone should be accused of being guilty when there is no evidence against them.
There is no evidence against the McCanns of any crime - and anyone who thinks there ever will be - is going to be very disappointed IMO.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 01, 2015, 10:25:28 AM
I am not at all 'attracted' to the McCanns. Why should I be? Please explain.
My main reason for posting on this case is because I have been appalled at the downright lies, rumours and gossip which have been accepted by some people to be facts - and who then gleefully use those so called 'facts' to hound the family of a missing child. I would feel exactly the same if Kerry Needham or Coral Jones were being subjected to the same cruel, vile behaviour year in year out.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: carlymichelle on October 01, 2015, 10:34:35 AM
I am not at all 'attracted' to the McCanns. Why should I be? Please explain.
My main reason for posting on this case is because I have been appalled at the downright lies, rumours and gossip which have been accepted by some people to be facts - and who then gleefully use those so called 'facts' to hound the family of a missing child. I would feel exactly the same if Kerry Needham or Coral Jones were being subjected to the same cruel, vile behaviour year in year out.
do you accept that without the mcanns lack of childcare she wouldnt be missing?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: faithlilly on October 01, 2015, 10:49:23 AM
Unlikely to be able to do so without trace. She had to get through the patio sliding door - not reported as being sufficiently open for a child to get through when Kate arrives for her visit. Then she has to get through/over the child gate, which I think opens outwards, so tricky to manage in the dark. Again, gate reported as closed.
And if the first person to do a visual check had found the patio door open and Madeleine absent from the apartment. Do you think he would have admitted it ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on October 01, 2015, 10:51:50 AM
And if the first person to do a visual check had found the patio door open and Madeleine absent from the apartment. Do you think he would have admitted it ?
If it were Matt, then how would he know exactly how the patio door had been left by Gerry?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: faithlilly on October 01, 2015, 10:56:22 AM
I am not at all 'attracted' to the McCanns. Why should I be? Please explain.
My main reason for posting on this case is because I have been appalled at the downright lies, rumours and gossip which have been accepted by some people to be facts - and who then gleefully use those so called 'facts' to hound the family of a missing child. I would feel exactly the same if Kerry Needham or Coral Jones were being subjected to the same cruel, vile behaviour year in year out.
Everyone has access to the same information on this case. People interpret it differently, that's all. I am appalled that those who support the McCanns continually claim the moral high ground and accuse others of all sorts of bad behaviour as above. To claim the moral high ground people need to be more measured and less inflammatory in my opinion. If someone thinks a story doesn't add up calling them names is not going to change their minds, reasoned argument is the best way to achieve change.
MWT's theory is lacking any explanation of the open shutters and window, so is incomplete. He also assumes that the parents wouldn't do any wrong, which is naive to say the least; plenty parents do harm their children.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on October 01, 2015, 11:03:57 AM
do you accept that without the mcanns lack of childcare she wouldnt be missing?
You may consider the McCanns displayed a lack of childcare, but that is merely your opinion. Yes - thousands agree with you but equally - there are thousands who don't. However, whatever a person's opinion is on that subject - it does not excuse or justify a child being abducted from her bed. The real criminal here is the person who took her.
Do you regard those holidaymakers who, inspite of what happened to Madeleine, still leave their children asleep in their rooms whilst they go to dinner - knowing they will be regularly checked - to be as guilty as the McCanns. If not why not?
Why would holiday tour operators, hoteliers etc etc offer a service to their customers if it was illegal from a childcare point of view?
IMO the 'service' should be banned and people who use baby alarms for the same purpose should be actively discouraged from doing so. However, as it stands they are not breaking any laws - and neither were the McCanns.
Who can say whether Madeleine would have been abducted or not. The monster who targeted British children in their beds did so knowing that their parents were in another room at the time. That didn't deter him.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: carlymichelle on October 01, 2015, 11:04:54 AM
Everyone has access to the same information on this case. People interpret it differently, that's all. I am appalled that those who support the McCanns continually claim the moral high ground and accuse others of all sorts of bad behaviour as above. To claim the moral high ground people need to be more measured and less inflammatory in my opinion. If someone thinks a story doesn't add up calling them names is not going to change their minds, reasoned argument is the best way to achieve change.
MWT's theory is lacking any explanation of the open shutters and window, so is incomplete. He also assumes that the parents wouldn't do any wrong, which is naive to say the least; plenty parents do harm their children.
well said 8@??)( they dish it out and they whine when they get it back
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 01, 2015, 11:06:04 AM
Unlikely to be able to do so without trace. She had to get through the patio sliding door - not reported as being sufficiently open for a child to get through when Kate arrives for her visit. ...(snip)
From inside, slide door open by pushing on handle - very easy - there is a photo of a younger child operating an identical door. Then from outside slide door closed by placing hands on door and pushing sideways - this is physically possible for a child IMO (see how easily it slides when opened from outside by father in the video).
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 01, 2015, 11:07:48 AM
Everyone has access to the same information on this case. People interpret it differently, that's all. I am appalled that those who support the McCanns continually claim the moral high ground and accuse others of all sorts of bad behaviour as above. To claim the moral high ground people need to be more measured and less inflammatory in my opinion. If someone thinks a story doesn't add up calling them names is not going to change their minds, reasoned argument is the best way to achieve change.
MWT's theory is lacking any explanation of the open shutters and window, so is incomplete. He also assumes that the parents wouldn't do any wrong, which is naive to say the least; plenty parents do harm their children.
8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on October 01, 2015, 11:09:38 AM
But Matt didn't do a visual check until, we are told, after 9.30.
Exactly. The only one who would know how the patio door had been been left by the previous checker would be Gerry. It could have been left half open by Gerry at 9.15 ish for all Matt would know.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on October 01, 2015, 11:11:51 AM
From inside, slide door open by pushing on handle - very easy - there is a photo of a younger child operating an identical door. Then from outside slide door closed by placing hands on door and pushing sideways - this is physically possible for a child IMO (see how easily it slides when opened from outside by father in the video).
Indeed, but would a child bother? I don't think I've ever come across a young child who shuts a door after then without being reminded.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 01, 2015, 11:12:32 AM
Exactly. The only one who would know how the patio door had been been left by the previous checker would be Gerry. It could have been left half open by Gerry at 9.15 ish for all Matt would know.
Precisely.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: carlymichelle on October 01, 2015, 11:14:19 AM
Everyone has access to the same information on this case. People interpret it differently, that's all. I am appalled that those who support the McCanns continually claim the moral high ground and accuse others of all sorts of bad behaviour as above. To claim the moral high ground people need to be more measured and less inflammatory in my opinion. If someone thinks a story doesn't add up calling them names is not going to change their minds, reasoned argument is the best way to achieve change.
MWT's theory is lacking any explanation of the open shutters and window, so is incomplete. He also assumes that the parents wouldn't do any wrong, which is naive to say the least; plenty parents do harm their children.
so you call MWT naďve....but on this forum if anyone criticises Grime it is not acceptable by the sceptics because he is a professional...do you see the double standards
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 01, 2015, 11:17:25 AM
You may consider the McCanns displayed a lack of childcare, but that is merely your opinion. Yes - thousands agree with you but equally - there are thousands who don't. However, whatever a person's opinion is on that subject - it does not excuse or justify a child being abducted from her bed. The real criminal here is the person who took her.
Do you regard those holidaymakers who, inspite of what happened to Madeleine, still leave their children asleep in their rooms whilst they go to dinner - knowing they will be regularly checked - to be as guilty as the McCanns. If not why not?
Why would holiday tour operators, hoteliers etc etc offer a service to their customers if it was illegal from a childcare point of view?
IMO the 'service' should be banned and people who use baby alarms for the same purpose should be actively discouraged from doing so. However, as it stands they are not breaking any laws - and neither were the McCanns.
Who can say whether Madeleine would have been abducted or not. The monster who targeted British children in their beds did so knowing that their parents were in another room at the time. That didn't deter him.
It's all down to choice. Parents choose what they believe are the right choices when it comes to childcare. Many parent's choices have been proved to be wrong and many parents have paid a price. The price ranges from being told off to losing their children in one way or another. Wise parents learn to predict, which is why we hear them saying things like 'don't do that, you'll hurt yourself!' Most parents would think twice about leaving three under 5's alone in an unlocked apartment. Anyone who thinks that was a sensible choice is in denial.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 01, 2015, 11:17:30 AM
(snip)... Then she has to get through/over the child gate, which I think opens outwards, so tricky to manage in the dark. Again, gate reported as closed.
The child gate opens both ways. It was designed for children up to 24 months. There is a document in the files which states "possibly open" at 9.30.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: faithlilly on October 01, 2015, 11:17:52 AM
Exactly. The only one who would know how the patio door had been been left by the previous checker would be Gerry. It could have been left half open by Gerry at 9.15 ish for all Matt would know.
Or Gerry could have found it half open ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on October 01, 2015, 11:25:54 AM
He could have, but he didn't mention it. Unless he shot off and left Kate to close the patio door at 8 ish, he would know how it had been left. He knew that Matt hadn't entered at 9 ish but only listened at the window, which was his stated reason for rushing back shortly after.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 01, 2015, 11:36:51 AM
Maybe not, but would a small child bother, whatever the circumstances?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 01, 2015, 11:41:52 AM
Witness DW did a brief street search, as far as where the area of road works began. It's possible this brief search route might be the same instinctive downhill route as a child would take?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on October 01, 2015, 11:44:01 AM
Maybe not, but would a small child bother, whatever the circumstances?
It is physically possible for a 47 month old to slide the door closed from outside IMO therefore it might have happened. The generalisation "children don't close doors behind them" does not rule it out. The stairgate was possibly open at 9.30. and assuming the previous checker had closed it, the only mobile person at the apartment who could have opened it is the child, and to do that would require going through the sliding door.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 01, 2015, 12:27:33 PM
I think it possible that working from professionally translated files (which the Oporto Policia Judicairia team wouldn't have had to do), in conjunction with relevant information in the files collected by the McCann detectives, in conjunction with the information which they have to hand via their own intelligence gathering, Scotland Yard have discarded the theory that Madeleine woke and wandered.
If they have taken it into consideration they have not said so. However they have said they believe Madeleine McCann was the victim of a pre-planned abduction.
Police say one reading of Madeleine McCann's disappearance in Portugal in 2007 is that it has "all the hallmarks of a pre-planned abduction". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24528530
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 01, 2015, 12:29:54 PM
Witness DW did a brief street search, as far as where the area of road works began. It's possible this brief search route might be the same instinctive downhill route as a child would take?
And she walks past the entrance to the tapas bar and play area and was taken by a predator. That rules Smithman out as he was coming from the other direction so you know what I think of that theory. Not much ?{)(**
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 01, 2015, 12:31:48 PM
so you call MWT naďve....but on this forum if anyone criticises Grime it is not acceptable by the sceptics because he is a professional...do you see the double standards
Grime was police dog trainer and handler for many years. What are MWT's qualifications?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 01, 2015, 12:35:18 PM
Grime was police dog trainer and handler for many years. What are MWT's qualifications?
I fancy I heard he was taking some external qualification from a minor university, though hopefully not this one - http://cynicalb........s.com/ubs/index.html
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 01, 2015, 12:37:42 PM
I think it possible that working from professionally translated files (which the Oporto Policia Judicairia team wouldn't have had to do), in conjunction with relevant information in the files collected by the McCann detectives, in conjunction with the information which they have to hand via their own intelligence gathering, Scotland Yard have discarded the theory that Madeleine woke and wandered.
If they have taken it into consideration they have not said so. However they have said they believe Madeleine McCann was the victim of a pre-planned abduction.
Police say one reading of Madeleine McCann's disappearance in Portugal in 2007 is that it has "all the hallmarks of a pre-planned abduction". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24528530
Just putting bold in the right place, as other readings are possible.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 01, 2015, 12:42:48 PM
What are Grime's explanations for such discrepancies as a claim of operational depoloyment and over 200 cases (for Eddie!) when the true number is operational deployment and 37 cases?
Or examining clothing (at all) when there was no justification for examination of clothing.
Or stating that Nick Rose immediately admitted his guilt (of murdering Charlotte Pinkney) when a jury took 12 hours of deliberation before finding him guilty and then Pinkney fully exhausted his allowed round of appeals against the sentence (without success) and there is a campaign protesting his innocence that runs to the present day?
Why don't you communicate with Grime ?
I am sure he will be pleased to hear from you directly. 8)--))
......and of course, it's off topic.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 01, 2015, 12:43:52 PM
And she walks past the entrance to the tapas bar and play area .....
but that is quite possible Pathfinder - the door could easily be opened - the stairgate could easily be opened (no-one ever stated it was locked) - and it's a short walk downhill walk
What are Grime's explanations for such discrepancies as a claim of operational depoloyment and over 200 cases (for Eddie!) when the true number is operational deployment and 37 cases?
Or examining clothing (at all) when there was no justification for examination of clothing.
Or stating that Nick Rose immediately admitted his guilt (of murdering Charlotte Pinkney) when a jury took 12 hours of deliberation before finding him guilty and then Pinkney fully exhausted his allowed round of appeals against the sentence (without success) and there is a campaign protesting his innocence that runs to the present day?
You examine clothes for further evidence of death - same with vehicles and properties. No clothes should alert unless you work with the dead. If you have a body that is evidence of death. If you have alerted clothes from the suspect that can be used as evidence to connect that person to the death along with other evidence. A series of evidence all put together can make a strong tight case. Eddie was an expert in his field as past cases and training records prove and all his alerts in this case have one thing in common..........
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 01, 2015, 02:07:34 PM
You examine clothes for further evidence of death - same with vehicles and properties. No clothes should alert unless you work with the dead. If you have a body that is evidence of death. If you have alerted clothes from the suspect that can be used as evidence to connect that person to the death along with other evidence. A series of evidence all put together can make a strong tight case. Eddie was an expert in his field as past cases and training records prove and all his alerts in this case have one thing in common..........
But Eddie didn't find any evidence
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 01, 2015, 02:13:10 PM
Is there really much more to be said about who was where and who did what on the third May as far as the Drs McCann and their friends are concerned ... over eight years of scrutiny and speculation must surely have accomplished that?
Maybe if that same scrutiny had been directed towards the people reportedly seen by witnesses prior to that date Madeleine McCann's case might have reached resolution.
DCI Redwood asked who the 'charity collector' was who called at apartment 5A at the end of April.
He was interested in the 'charity collector' who was at a property on the Rua do Ramalhete in the late afternoon of the day Madeleine disappeared.
There we have two individuals whose timelines might very well be of interest. One at the apartment in the days before the McCann family's occupancy. The other in the Rua do Ramalhete which parallels Rua Dr Agostinho da Siva in the hours before Madeleine disappeared.
Mark Williams-Thomas, as well as many very experienced law enforcement professionals are of the opinion that Madeleine was abducted. In my opinion we have two individuals worthy of being traced and either ruled in or ruled out as suspects involved in Madeleine's disappearance ... yet they were off the radar until the Scotland Yard investigation?
Wow ... but meantime like the original investigation, we can continue rearranging the chairs in the tapas restaurant and working out how long a person should spend in the toilet ... but attempt to trace a suspicious man?? ... never!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 01, 2015, 03:06:44 PM
@ShiningInLuz On the short section of Rua Teixeira which joins Rua Martins to Rua Direita, halfway is a change in the road surface from tarmac to cobbled. Maybe this is the location where one searcher described road works?
It does look from the two manhole covers at the start of this section that this was where this bit of road works started. My memory dredges up an open man hole around the time, but as a media story rather than a statement, and located it at the north end of Rua Helena Nascimento Baptista. That one would not be in a likely Madeleine path.
The actual state of the road works that night is both relevant and problematic.
The files show photos of works in Rua HNB and Direita, but not the states of other parts of these roads.
They do not do 'rolling' repairs here i.e. start at end A and as soon as the drains are laid restore section A to use whilst moving on to section B. They started improvements in Rua do Cemiterio in early Jan 2015 at the east end, worked right along to the west end, had the entire street out of action for over 3 months (tough luck on those with drives onto the street) and restored the entire surface before the Luz triathlon of Apr 25. And I suspect that deadline was met mainly because RdC was part of the triathlon route.
Google Earth shows Rua HNB had not been restored by June 2007.
I have seen a photo, I believe on this forum, of traffic going the 'wrong' way on Direita i.e. against the normal one-way system. Like a fool, I don't seem to have noted where that was or bagged the photo. If traffic was going the wrong way, then it would seem that temporary diversions were in place. That would make sense, as traffic in significant chunks of Luz depends on Direita being at least part open.
Here's where the problematic bit kicks in. I am surround by people who could shed light on this aspect, but attempting to discuss the case here invariably leads to a swift change of topic. Nobody who was here at the time is interested, other than wishing the media would go somewhere else.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on October 01, 2015, 03:12:36 PM
Is there really much more to be said about who was where and who did what on the third May as far as the Drs McCann and their friends are concerned ... over eight years of scrutiny and speculation must surely have accomplished that?
Maybe if that same scrutiny had been directed towards the people reportedly seen by witnesses prior to that date Madeleine McCann's case might have reached resolution.
DCI Redwood asked who the 'charity collector' was who called at apartment 5A at the end of April.
He was interested in the 'charity collector' who was at a property on the Rua do Ramalhete in the late afternoon of the day Madeleine disappeared.
There we have two individuals whose timelines might very well be of interest. One at the apartment in the days before the McCann family's occupancy. The other in the Rua do Ramalhete which parallels Rua Dr Agostinho da Siva in the hours before Madeleine disappeared.
Mark Williams-Thomas, as well as many very experienced law enforcement professionals are of the opinion that Madeleine was abducted. In my opinion we have two individuals worthy of being traced and either ruled in or ruled out as suspects involved in Madeleine's disappearance ... yet they were off the radar until the Scotland Yard investigation?
Wow ... but meantime like the original investigation, we can continue rearranging the chairs in the tapas restaurant and working out how long a person should spend in the toilet ... but attempt to trace a suspicious man?? ... never!
Is Nicola even interested or has it all been resolved to her satisfaction? Quite rightly, she seems reluctant to tell us.
As an aside, is it about a year since Redwood departed the scene
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: faithlilly on October 01, 2015, 03:34:59 PM
He could have, but he didn't mention it. Unless he shot off and left Kate to close the patio door at 8 ish, he would know how it had been left. He knew that Matt hadn't entered at 9 ish but only listened at the window, which was his stated reason for rushing back shortly after.
My point is what if there had been a terrible accident which involved Madeleine accessing the balcony through the patio doors. Do you think he would be truthful about the doors being open in those circumstances ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 01, 2015, 03:36:58 PM
I fancy I heard he was taking some external qualification from a minor university, though hopefully not this one - http://cynicalb........s.com/ubs/index.html
seems it was a Phd at Birmingham
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on October 01, 2015, 03:40:56 PM
You examine clothes for further evidence of death - same with vehicles and properties. No clothes should alert unless you work with the dead. If you have a body that is evidence of death. If you have alerted clothes from the suspect that can be used as evidence to connect that person to the death along with other evidence. A series of evidence all put together can make a strong tight case. Eddie was an expert in his field as past cases and training records prove and all his alerts in this case have one thing in common..........
Not clothes under identical circumstances of clothes examined at PdL 2007, you don't.
And especially not twice.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 01, 2015, 04:48:54 PM
The shelved enquiry thoroughly investigated the McCanns and found not a shred of evidence against them.
The investigation looked at various possibilities;
the investigation equated the verification of several hypotheses: abduction, for the purpose of sexual exploration or others (i.e. posterior adoption, child traffic, organ traffic), without homicide; abduction, followed by homicide with (or without) concealment of a cadaver, hypotheses that were considered under the double sides of the abduction (if it existed) having occurred due to feelings of vengeance of the abductor(s) towards the parents (directed abduction) or simply taking advantage of the circumstance that the child was in a situation of actual vulnerability (opportunity abduction), accidental death, with posterior concealment of the cadaver and, underlying all of these possibilities, abandonment, substantiated as a crime under article 138 of the Penal Code. The possibility of theft, whose author would have been disturbed by the child Madeleine and who, in order to prevent her from disturbing him, neutralised her in a violent manner, and, afterwards, took her with him, dead or alive, in order to leave no trace that could eventually lead to his identification.
At the end of the investigation;
While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.
The investigation looked at all the above scenarios and in the end all of them were still possible. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on October 01, 2015, 08:13:23 PM
The investigation looked at various possibilities;
the investigation equated the verification of several hypotheses: abduction, for the purpose of sexual exploration or others (i.e. posterior adoption, child traffic, organ traffic), without homicide; abduction, followed by homicide with (or without) concealment of a cadaver, hypotheses that were considered under the double sides of the abduction (if it existed) having occurred due to feelings of vengeance of the abductor(s) towards the parents (directed abduction) or simply taking advantage of the circumstance that the child was in a situation of actual vulnerability (opportunity abduction), accidental death, with posterior concealment of the cadaver and, underlying all of these possibilities, abandonment, substantiated as a crime under article 138 of the Penal Code. The possibility of theft, whose author would have been disturbed by the child Madeleine and who, in order to prevent her from disturbing him, neutralised her in a violent manner, and, afterwards, took her with him, dead or alive, in order to leave no trace that could eventually lead to his identification.
At the end of the investigation;
While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.
The investigation looked at all the above scenarios and in the end all of them were still possible. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
The quote placed in proper cotext:
While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.
It seems evident to us and because the files contain enough elements for such, that the crime of exposure or abandonment according to article 138 of the Penal Code can be eliminated from that range:
"1 - Whoever places another person's life in danger, a) By exposing her in a location where she is subject to a situation from which she, on her own, cannot defend herself against; or b) Abandoning her without defence, whenever the agent had the duty to guard her, to watch over her or to assist her;"
This legal type of crime is only fulfilled with intent, and this intent has to cover the creation of danger to the victim's life, as well as the absence of a capacity to defend herself, on the victim's behalf. In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent. The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.
The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.
Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them. Without any pretension or compensatory effect, we must also recognise that the parents already expiate a heavy penalty - the disappearance of Madeleine - due to their lack of caution in the surveillance and protection of their children.
Concerning the other indicated crimes, they are no more than that and despite our perception that, due to its high degree of probability, the occurrence of a homicide cannot be discarded, such cannot be more than a mere supposition, due to the lack of sustaining elements in the files.
Correct interpretation: none of the range of crimes was applicable to the McCanns: The range of crimes remained untouched
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 01, 2015, 08:26:31 PM
It does look from the two manhole covers at the start of this section that this was where this bit of road works started. My memory dredges up an open man hole around the time, but as a media story rather than a statement, and located it at the north end of Rua Helena Nascimento Baptista. That one would not be in a likely Madeleine path.
The actual state of the road works that night is both relevant and problematic.
The files show photos of works in Rua HNB and Direita, but not the states of other parts of these roads.
They do not do 'rolling' repairs here i.e. start at end A and as soon as the drains are laid restore section A to use whilst moving on to section B. They started improvements in Rua do Cemiterio in early Jan 2015 at the east end, worked right along to the west end, had the entire street out of action for over 3 months (tough luck on those with drives onto the street) and restored the entire surface before the Luz triathlon of Apr 25. And I suspect that deadline was met mainly because RdC was part of the triathlon route.
Google Earth shows Rua HNB had not been restored by June 2007.
I have seen a photo, I believe on this forum, of traffic going the 'wrong' way on Direita i.e. against the normal one-way system. Like a fool, I don't seem to have noted where that was or bagged the photo. If traffic was going the wrong way, then it would seem that temporary diversions were in place. That would make sense, as traffic in significant chunks of Luz depends on Direita being at least part open.
Here's where the problematic bit kicks in. I am surround by people who could shed light on this aspect, but attempting to discuss the case here invariably leads to a swift change of topic. Nobody who was here at the time is interested, other than wishing the media would go somewhere else.
It is in a statement ShiningInLuz but the exact location isn't given. N end of Rua HNB was only one guess. Thankyou for GEarth info, you say Rua HNB had in June 2007 not been restored yet, do you mean the old surface was not dug up yet? Anyway productive discussion with you has made that location of much less interest (route was not known and is not always downhill), and has made the short east section of Rua JT more interesting (route was known and is always downhill).
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 01, 2015, 09:33:17 PM
MWT fails to include the open window and shutter in his theory. Can you see that the simple addition of a petty burglar opening them from outside might fix his theory? (This had also recently happened at several nearby apartments). Obviously a petty burglar would flee empty handed as soon as he saw there were children inside. That might possibly provide a compelling reason for a child to venture out the opposite end of the apartment. It would also mean there was absolutely no staging of the window and shutter by either parent - not even "naive staging".
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 01, 2015, 10:24:19 PM
Yes that is the theory of MWT, and of ex-Scotland Yard detective O'C.Their theories wouldn't necessarily rule out smithman (see steps down to R Escola just north of sighting).
Peter would have noticed him coming out from the side steps. Shame the PJ missed the camera.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/smith4.jpg)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 01, 2015, 10:56:10 PM
Peter would have noticed him coming out from the side steps... (snip)
A person going away from location of MWT theory or O'C theory, who had no knowledge of the streets (not knowing the streets is your idea) could go along R Alvernaz and not take the steps shortcut but continue to end join with R Escola and turn left there
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 01, 2015, 11:25:12 PM
@Shining (you mentioned GEarth Jun 2007 of Rua HNB) it would be interesting to see same date of the most east section of Rua JT.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 02, 2015, 01:42:01 AM
It is in a statement ShiningInLuz but the exact location isn't given. N end of Rua HNB was only one guess. Thankyou for GEarth info, you say Rua HNB had in June 2007 not been restored yet, do you mean the old surface was not dug up yet? Anyway productive discussion with you has made that location of much less interest (route was not known and is not always downhill), and has made the short east section of Rua JT more interesting (route was known and is always downhill).
I'd need to look it up, but certain sections of Luz were dug up towards the start of the work. The guy who said he was employed in early April as a driver of a digger says Rua HNB was one dug up early on. If they left Rua HNB dug up to June 2007, it affects things other than Madeleine wandering, notably a Brazilian wanting a child who appeared to mysteriously drive down the dug up Rua HNB on 3 May 2007, before setting sail from Lagos.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 02, 2015, 02:17:47 AM
I'd need to look it up, but certain sections of Luz were dug up towards the start of the work. The guy who said he was employed in early April as a driver of a digger says Rua HNB was one dug up early on. If they left Rua HNB dug up to June 2007, it affects things other than Madeleine wandering, notably a Brazilian wanting a child who appeared to mysteriously drive down the dug up Rua HNB on 3 May 2007, before setting sail from Lagos.
Thanks ShiningInLuz. I am interested in the cobbling of the town centre because after removing the old surface, at some stage the manholes complete with their frames must be removed and then later replaced at the new level before the new cobbles are laid. The Morgan statement says he saw a manhole complete with its frame had been removed and placed at the side of the road, leaving a hole in the road where it had been. This could only have been in the area where many streets were resurfaced with cobbles 2007 IMO, so it is interesting the location where the downhill and previously known route enters that area. About the s.american person looking backwards in their car, IIRC after the old surface was removed, slow vehicle access was probably still allowed on the sand/gravel on some of the streets even though new cobbles not done yet, so driving to/from businesses still possible.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 02, 2015, 06:06:33 PM
... About the s.american person looking backwards in their car, IIRC after the old surface was removed, slow vehicle access was probably still allowed on the sand/gravel on some of the streets even though new cobbles not done yet, so driving to/from businesses still possible.
Do you have any idea where you got that from? If correct, it advances my understanding of the scene, hence my interest in the source.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 02, 2015, 07:40:56 PM
A person going away from location of MWT theory or O'C theory, who had no knowledge of the streets (not knowing the streets is your idea) could go along R Alvernaz and not take the steps shortcut but continue to end join with R Escola and turn left there
I have my theory and he came from 5A so he went around the wasteland and past that camera to the sighting.
Do you have any idea where you got that from? If correct, it advances my understanding of the scene, hence my interest in the source.
Brietta posted the PJ file re dull red car containing woman and dog driving past video shop at 10.45pm. That video shop was at Rua Direita 20, some distance NE of Lobsters kidsclub. Unfortunatley the witness does not say which direction the car was going. (edited).
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 03, 2015, 01:52:13 AM
Do you have any idea where you got that from? If correct, it advances my understanding of the scene, hence my interest in the source.
I remember seeing a photo or aerial photo of a street in 2007 (possibly Rua HNB not sure) with the old surface removed but the new cobbled surface not yet laid, and there were several cars there indicating the road was open for access to businesses although having no top surface, I will try to find it.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 03, 2015, 03:06:21 AM
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3986.jpg @ShiningInLuz taking the always downhill route (south on R Martins, left on R Teixeira, right on Rua Direita) arrives immediately at this trench (position and length marked by 2 orange pipes) which was open that night. Trench was 1.2 metres deep, which is relative to a child height of 1 metre very deep. But next morning it was checked by workmen aware of the disappearance and there was definitely no-one in there.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 03, 2015, 04:19:46 AM
The idea that a child can't open a sliding door is nonsense
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on October 03, 2015, 08:42:40 AM
Have you got one of them closing it again from the outside ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 03, 2015, 09:31:00 AM
There seemed to be a bit of difficulty in retrieving CCTV footage from those places which had it installed. For example, petrol stations where the police had to wait a matter of days for a technician to access the equipment to give them a copy. On at least one occasion the police viewed the images in situ rather than wait.
Some had had the images wiped concerning the night in question as a result of automatic deletion of the tape or disc being recorded over in the next cycle.
Perhaps if the Smith family had thought to report their sighting to the PJ as soon as Madeleine's disappearance became news ... the morning of the 4th of May ... instead of realising it had not been a dream a fortnight later, accessing the footage from the CCTV would have been a priority. Which at least would have allowed the time of the family's return to be verified even if it did not pick up the carrier.
Since there were so few installations in Praia da Luz ... it is disappointing this one wasn't checked as a matter of course ... particularly when the proximity to 5A is considered.
But a report of the Smith sighting on the 4th May would certainly have caused it to be a priority and would have been invaluable to the investigation, instead of just another one of those 'if only s'.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 03, 2015, 02:21:18 PM
Have you got one of them closing it again from the outside ?
No but, it proves that from inside a 2 yr-old can easily reach the handle of this exact brand of sliding door.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on October 03, 2015, 02:30:59 PM
I know this. I'm more interested in whether a 3 year old would be closing the door once they have left. Not only closing it, but leaving it in the same position as left by the parents.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 03, 2015, 03:41:40 PM
I know this. I'm more interested in whether a 3 year old would be closing the door once they have left. Not only closing it, but leaving it in the same position as left by the parents.
I agree that if someone only wants to go out a sliding door to get to the street as soon as possible, they would not waste time closing the sliding door behind them. So you make a very good point.
However if someone exits through a sliding door in a situation where there is a perceived threat behind them, perhaps closing the sliding door behind may make sense?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 03, 2015, 04:00:56 PM
(snip) ... Not only closing it, but leaving it in the same position as left by the parents.
The witnesses in statements use the word "closed" in a vague sense, a document in the files states that the sliding door was left open by a small gap width of fingers.
See footage of GM opening the sliding door from outside. This is interesting, because it completely unintentionally provides a very good reenactment of how checkers arriving at this apartment opened the sliding door from outside. Why is it easy for him to open? Because, without realising the value to us of this footage, the film crew have left it slightly open with enough gap for fingers. Exactly like was done during tapas meals IMO.
http://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=12m41s
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 04, 2015, 01:05:53 AM
Past this camera. Not very busy is it. It amazes me why people complicate things that are simple and straight forward.
I am not shooting the messenger i.e. you. I am however shooting the message. Totally and unequivocally.
This video goes beyond being pure horse manure into the territory of myths to be debunked.
On Estrela da Luz there are 9 customer gates overlooked by 10 CCTV cameras. Plus a 24hr reception that presumably has CCTV. 10 entrances and 11 CCTVs.
Can you find ANY mention of CCTV from Estrela in the PJ Files. If they only missed one, there should be 10 others. Where are they?
ALL of the CCTV cameras (with 2 minor exceptions) are trained INSIDE the Estrela da Luz complex. (I believe this is a requirement of Portuguese law, but I can't be certain.)
If we hit jackpot, one single chance in 11, we would 'miss' the Smiths returning, assuming they used that entrance.
However, on odds of 10 out of 11, we should have the Smiths nailed down on their return.
We don't have the time of their return, so what went wrong?
1) The Estrela tapes had been overwritten before the Smith sighting surfaced.
2) We were very unlucky, hitting the one camera in 11 that somehow the CCTV operator AND the policeman failed to point out.
3) A finger is being pointed at a PJ officer cocking up, when it was quite possibly another PJ officer who cocked up.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 04, 2015, 01:52:51 AM
I remember seeing a photo or aerial photo of a street in 2007 (possibly Rua HNB not sure) with the old surface removed but the new cobbled surface not yet laid, and there were several cars there indicating the road was open for access to businesses although having no top surface, I will try to find it.
This is the 22 Jun 2007 G Earth view. Rua Helena is car-free. The previous image, shortly before, is also car-free. The one before that in 2006 has several cars on it.
From the 22 Jun 2007 image, I cannot see anything that is blocking Rua Helena off to traffic. Not to the north, nor the south, nor the east through that excruciatingly small zig-zag road.
So it looks as if motor access was possible, just with the obstacles of the man-hole covers sticking up above the flattened surface.
ETA It would have helped if I had attached the graphic the first time around!!!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 04, 2015, 02:05:45 AM
This is the 22 Jun 2007 G Earth view. Rua Helena is car-free. The previous image, shortly before, is also car-free. The one before that in 2006 has several cars on it.
From the 22 Jun 2007 image, I cannot see anything that is blocking Rua Helena off to traffic. Not to the north, nor the south, nor the east through that excruciatingly small zig-zag road.
So it looks as if motor access was possible, just with the obstacles of the man-hole covers sticking up above the flattened surface.
Maybe it was open only for access to businesses and residences?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 04, 2015, 02:07:42 AM
Which road do you think this is ShiningInLuz?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 04, 2015, 03:34:08 AM
Maybe it was open only for access to businesses and residences?
Please note - I updated my post to put in the graphic I managed to miss off first time. Desculpe.
I am trying to think where Rua Helena fits into the normal one-way system. So far, I cannot see it as being important. I.E. cars would not go along it around 10:30 at night to get to anywhere but the local buildings, not businesses. That's just a starter thought, by the way. The Maharaja, at that time the only Indian restaurant in Luz, was on Rua Helena, so I cannot discount a diner leaving, or someone getting a take-away.
Then there is whether they had a different road system in place at the time. And Rua Helena was important. I'm just not feeling that one at the moment.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 04, 2015, 02:39:05 PM
"lines show areas recently cobbled" (source: Sun sept 2007 now removed) (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/5sep7/SUN-12-9-8-MAP.JPG)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 04, 2015, 04:50:32 PM
Witness DW did a brief search of streets fairly soon after the alarm, searching up to where the area of roadworks began (please see rog). Therefore this search was IMO probably past tapas reception then through the supermarket car park as far as the north end of Rua HN Baptista where the area of roadworks began, turning back there. If a searcher choosing a search route instinctively took this route, might not a child wandering instinctively a little earlier have taken the same route? http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/5sep7/SUN-12-9-8-MAP.JPG (this map has north on the right, and if you look at the red dots which are the roadworks, the rightmost red dot is the north end of Rua HNB).
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 07, 2015, 01:32:41 PM
A two-year-old wanders. Found about a mile away, two days later. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3260413/Toddler-girl-vanished-great-grandparents-house-Friday-two-days-later-sleeping-nearby-field.html?ito=video_player_click
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 07, 2015, 02:15:29 PM
A two-year-old wanders. Found about a mile away, two days later. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3260413/Toddler-girl-vanished-great-grandparents-house-Friday-two-days-later-sleeping-nearby-field.html?ito=video_player_click
The majority of children who wander from the safety of their homes come to no harm and are returned safe and well.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 07, 2015, 03:09:08 PM
"lines show areas recently cobbled" (source: Sun sept 2007 now removed) (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/5sep7/SUN-12-9-8-MAP.JPG)
I'm not sure how accurate the Sun map is.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CONSTRUCTION_WORKERS.htm has the statement showing the precise location of works left open overnight on 3 May 2007. Both are claimed to be precise markings, and both are on pavements. One is on the SE side of Rua Helena. The other is on the N side of Direita, just W of the junction with Teixera.
In terms of traffic flow, it would have made sense to have Teixera open and 2-way, and the E end of Direita open and 2-way, whilst all the work was strangling the roads SW of these. But what makes sense and what happens in Portugal are not always the same.
We now have 3 ideas to consider. The first is where road works were in action. The second is open trenches. The third is when the surfaces were cobbled or re-cobbled.
On the graphic attached, I have added 2 yellow lines to indicate the trenches that were open on 3 May 2007. Note that 1 beside Direita/Teixera does NOT correspond to what the Sun thinks was recently cobbled, and that strikes me as making little sense.
The improvements were made in 2 phases. Those around the Sun's cobbles, then work paused during the high season, then the rest was done in a second phase.
"The ambitious, but welcome major project of works programmed for 2007 / 8 is now well on its way. Scheduled in two phases, Phase 1 - February 15th to July 15th is now completed. It has resulted in a considerable improvement to the centre of town. Phase 2 - from September 15th is currently underway."
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 07, 2015, 03:51:36 PM
@ShiningInLuz Thanks. Yes the Sun map shows phase 1 of the resurfacing of the town centre IMO. And the PJ photos show two utility trenches not marked on the Sun map but which you have correctly added. Still missing from the map is the open manhole (both the cover and the frame were removed). I am beginning to wonder if this was on R Martins very close to the apartment as that would fit the way the witness describes the location.
BTW to see roadworks only partly protected in early 2015, take a look at junction R Cemitério and R 1 Maio
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 07, 2015, 07:16:11 PM
@ShiningInLuz Thanks. Yes the Sun map shows phase 1 of the resurfacing of the town centre IMO. And the PJ photos show two utility trenches not marked on the Sun map but which you have correctly added. Still missing from the map is the open manhole (both the cover and the frame were removed). I am beginning to wonder if this was on R Martins very close to the apartment as that would fit the way the witness describes the location.
BTW to see roadworks only partly protected in early 2015, take a look at junction R Cemitério and R 1 Maio
I'd be surprised if it was close to the apartment on Martins.
First, Jenny Murat supposedly nipped to Baptista shortly before it closed at 8pm on 3 May, and you can't do that if Martins is dug up.
Second, nobody else in the files suggests Martins was dug up. It was Rua Helena and Direita.
Third, just from the way the traffic system would work, it makes little sense.
As to the 2015 road works, I walked from one end to the other in 2015 before they put things back together again. However, the drill operator in the PJ Files and the civil engineer both gave statements that excavations in 2007 were filled in promptly.
The only gossip I have heard on this is that the building work in 2007 was a shambles, not the nice tidy piece of work the files would lead us to believe. But then, I have heard lots of gossip.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 07, 2015, 07:58:51 PM
Witness DW did a brief search of streets fairly soon after the alarm, searching up to where the area of roadworks began (please see rog). Therefore this search was IMO probably past tapas reception then through the supermarket car park as far as the north end of Rua HN Baptista where the area of roadworks began, turning back there. If a searcher choosing a search route instinctively took this route, might not a child wandering instinctively a little earlier have taken the same route? http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/5sep7/SUN-12-9-8-MAP.JPG (this map has north on the right, and if you look at the red dots which are the roadworks, the rightmost red dot is the north end of Rua HNB).
Dianne Webster? She left the table and went to 5A and when Fiona arrived she went back to their apartment to look after the kids. When did this search happen?
There was a building site behind the church on 3 May 2007. It is now a car park.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 07, 2015, 08:44:28 PM
Dianne Webster? She left the table and went to 5A and when Fiona arrived she went back to their apartment to look after the kids. When did this search happen?
There was a building site behind the church on 3 May 2007. It is now a car park.
Ah yes, Dianne's search which wasn't mentioned until a year after the event. Even when it was mentioned she had trouble fitting it into the timeline. She didn't enjoy it much either because there was no-one else around. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on October 07, 2015, 10:00:35 PM
Dianne Webster? She left the table and went to 5A and when Fiona arrived she went back to their apartment to look after the kids. When did this search happen?
There was a building site behind the church on 3 May 2007. It is now a car park.
4078 ”You were back at that apartment you say you just sat out on the balcony and felt helpless.” Reply ”Yeah, you see there’s, there’s, I can’t quite get the timeline together because err at one point I also went out and had a walk round looking for her but I didn’t travel very far and I can’t remember at what point that was. It was obviously before I went back to the apartment to look after err Lily and Scarlet, now on that assumption I can only, I can only, I can only think that Fiona must have been in the apartment looking after them while I was out and my whole purpose of going back to the apartment was to let Fiona out for, to be with Kate.”
4078 ”Do you remember where you went when you had a little look?” Reply ”Err well I wandered about, because I’ve got no sense of direction, but I certainly wandered about err to where they had, there was road works going on but I didn’t feel too happy being about on my own at that err because it was quite late.”
4078 ”Did you notice anybody else around when you were out?” Reply ”No I didn’t, err and that’s what made it seem creepy, the fact I was wandering about on my own.”
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 08, 2015, 12:02:01 AM
I'd be surprised if it was close to the apartment on Martins.
First, Jenny Murat supposedly nipped to Baptista shortly before it closed at 8pm on 3 May, and you can't do that if Martins is dug up.
Second, nobody else in the files suggests Martins was dug up. It was Rua Helena and Direita.
Third, just from the way the traffic system would work, it makes little sense. ... (snip)
Possibility 1: The open manhole was on one of the streets being resurfaced early May 2007. If so then I agree the open manhole can't have been on R Martins, because it wasn't being resurfaced and it was certainly open to vehicle traffic.
Possibility 2: The open manhole was seperate from the resurfacing work and was on a road not being resurfaced. It could have been simply a manhole cover that needed replacing, nothing to do with resurfacing. If so then it could possibly have been on R Martins. If you walk down R Martins (or many other roads) you will see that many of the manhole covers have been replaced at some time or other And if you look carefully you can see that when the engineers install a new cover they also install a new frame. (See witness statement - frame was removed too)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 08, 2015, 12:15:59 AM
4078 ”You were back at that apartment you say you just sat out on the balcony and felt helpless.” Reply ”Yeah, you see there’s, there’s, I can’t quite get the timeline together because err at one point I also went out and had a walk round looking for her but I didn’t travel very far and I can’t remember at what point that was. It was obviously before I went back to the apartment to look after err Lily and Scarlet, now on that assumption I can only, I can only, I can only think that Fiona must have been in the apartment looking after them while I was out and my whole purpose of going back to the apartment was to let Fiona out for, to be with Kate.”
4078 ”Do you remember where you went when you had a little look?” Reply ”Err well I wandered about, because I’ve got no sense of direction, but I certainly wandered about err to where they had, there was road works going on but I didn’t feel too happy being about on my own at that err because it was quite late.”
4078 ”Did you notice anybody else around when you were out?” Reply ”No I didn’t, err and that’s what made it seem creepy, the fact I was wandering about on my own.”
Thanks Mercury. She was at the table then she went to 5A. She was trying the lift the shutters outside which she couldn't do then she went back out to retrieve items from the tapas table. She then went back to 5A bringing back the McCanns camera that was left on the table &%+((Ł Now Fiona is present at 5A so she goes back to look after the kids. Before going back to 5A for the second time and finding Fiona there she went for a wander around on her own. That is the only time that could fit or it must be later.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 08, 2015, 12:21:50 AM
Thanks Mercury. She was at the table then she went to 5A. She was trying the lift the shutters outside which she couldn't do then she went back out to retrieve items from the tapas table. She then went back to 5A bringing back the McCanns camera that was left on the table &%+((Ł Now Fiona is present at 5A so she goes back to look after the kids. Before going back to 5A for the second time and finding Fiona there she went for a wander around on her own. That is the only time that could fit.
And this is connected to woke and wandered, How?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 08, 2015, 12:35:07 AM
DW was out looking for a wandering child so I'm trying to work out what time this would be when she went straight to 5A for 10 minutes then left and retrieved items from the table and returned to 5A for a second time. She then went to look after the kids so when did she go to the roadworks? The streets were deserted in that area except for Jes walking around so a child would be easily heard with witnesses who were out on their balconies close by i.e. Moyes, Berry/Balu and Fenn would be aware for any further crying. I can't believe the child out alone scared in the dark wouldn't be heard by anyone and with the amount of checks going on she was bound to meet one of them before anyone else. The bed was tidy and she was barefoot. There's a lot of evidence against that theory.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 08, 2015, 12:39:10 AM
It could be relevant because DW on her short search would have chosen her route using female instinct. A wandering child would also chose a route instinctively. So the two routes may be similar or even the same.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 08, 2015, 09:16:44 AM
DW was out looking for a wandering child so I'm trying to work out what time this would be when she went straight to 5A for 10 minutes then left and retrieved items from the table and returned to 5A for a second time. She then went to look after the kids so when did she go to the roadworks? The streets were deserted in that area except for Jes walking around so a child would be easily heard with witnesses who were out on their balconies close by i.e. Moyes, Berry/Balu and Fenn would be aware for any further crying. I can't believe the child out alone scared in the dark wouldn't be heard by anyone and with the amount of checks going on she was bound to meet one of them before anyone else. The bed was tidy and she was barefoot. There's a lot of evidence against that theory.
Yes there are indications against the wandering theory. No shoes is one. Not being seen by anyone is another. Not being heard by anyone is another. But it is physically possible so needs to be considered. IMO if it did happen, with no shoes, it would be for a very short distance.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on October 08, 2015, 09:26:38 AM
Yes there are indications against the wandering theory. No shoes is one. Not being seen by anyone is another. Not being heard by anyone is another. But it is physically possible so needs to be considered. IMO if it did happen, with no shoes, it would be for a very short distance.
Yes, Madeleine's shoes were found in the villa and Kate attests that all the gates were closed and the doors shut when she made her check ....
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 08, 2015, 09:47:42 AM
Yes, Madeleine's shoes were found in the villa and Kate attests that all the gates were closed and the doors shut when she made her check ....
The stairgate may be "closed" but if it's not also locked it is easy as pie to swing it open and swing it closed. To lock it involves lifting the whole gate slightly so the lugs at the bottom engage over the bottom bar, then operating a lever which applies pressure of a rubber pad against the wall. No-one mentions doing this.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 11, 2015, 12:11:13 AM
The street entrance of the tapas compound entrance appears (2015) to have an electric door. There is a keypad on the wall next to it to enter a code number. On the door is a symbol of a person and maybe a button? There is no handle. Was the door like this in 2007? Was the door closed during evening 3 May 2007? If a small child went there and tried to open the door from the street would they be able to?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on October 11, 2015, 01:27:07 AM
The street entrance of the tapas compound entrance appears (2015) to have an electric door. There is a keypad on the wall next to it to enter a code number. On the door is a symbol of a person and maybe a button? There is no handle. Was the door like this in 2007? Was the door closed during evening 3 May 2007? If a small child went there and tried to open the door from the street would they be able to?
I remember reading somewhere that the general public couldn't access the pool area from the street at that time, it was done through the Tapas entrance. There was a clip in a video of GM entering through the double glass door of the Tapas bar & I think it may have been an automatic door. Can you recall which video that was on? Wasn't there a reception desk inside?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 11, 2015, 02:07:53 AM
I remember reading somewhere that the general public couldn't access the pool area from the street at that time, it was done through the Tapas entrance. There was a clip in a video of GM entering through the double glass door of the Tapas bar & I think it may have been an automatic door. Can you recall which video that was on? Wasn't there a reception desk inside?
GM going in through tapas reception doors http://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=5m59s but both doors are already fixed in open position so tells us nothing. MB going out through tapas reception doors http://youtu.be/6yFZ2eVuC4Q?t=14m20s here the inner door is closed so he has to somehow open it but at that moment the video is edited and we can't see how he opens the doors.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on October 11, 2015, 02:46:24 AM
GM going in through tapas reception doors http://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=5m59s but both doors are already fixed in open position so tells us nothing. MB going out through tapas reception doors http://youtu.be/6yFZ2eVuC4Q?t=14m20s here the inner door is closed so he has to somehow open it but at that moment the video is edited and we can't see how he opens the doors.
Have a look at the Despatches video from about 7.20 onwards, as there are some good shots of the doors. I think you'll probably be best placed to work out if they're automatic or not as I haven't spotted a door handle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InJLmyakzeE
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 11, 2015, 02:55:13 AM
Have a look at the Despatches video from about 7.20 onwards, as there are some good shots of the doors. I think you'll probably be best placed to work out if they're automatic or not as I haven't spotted a door handle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InJLmyakzeE
http://youtu.be/InJLmyakzeE?t=7m6s here the outer door is closed, and at 7m40s you can see something on the door where a handle would be but it's not a handle.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 11, 2015, 03:04:37 AM
Have a look at the Despatches video from about 7.20 onwards, as there are some good shots of the doors. I think you'll probably be best placed to work out if they're automatic or not as I haven't spotted a door handle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InJLmyakzeE
If you stop it at 7:40 ... below the red sticker I think I can see a handle ... in the frames just prior to that, I think there is a weather-strip at the bottom.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 11, 2015, 03:15:21 AM
If you stop it at 7:40 ... below the red sticker I think I can see a handle ... in the frames just prior to that, I think there is a weather-strip at the bottom.
There is "no dogs" sign, which would be silly if the door was left open until tapas bar closed (midnight) because stray dogs would just walk in, so IMO this door was closed during the adult dinner 3rd May.
I think it is not a handle but it is an electric control? Would a child be able to operate it?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on October 11, 2015, 03:19:04 AM
The central 3rd of the door seems to be the part which opens, seemingly sliding to one side?? Would that be automatic or opened by the small black knob or whatever that object is?
I also notice at 7.03 the side gate has a chain on it (night shot) but later on when the experts are viewing it by day discussing an abduction scenario they make reference to the gate having no lock on it. There is also no reference to the safety gate.I wonder if there was a chain there during the McCanns' holiday?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 11, 2015, 03:33:56 AM
The central 3rd of the door seems to be the part which opens, seemingly sliding to one side?? Would that be automatic or opened by the small black knob or whatever that object is?
I also notice at 7.03 the side gate has a chain on it (night shot) but later on when the experts are viewing it by day discussing an abduction scenario they make reference to the gate having no lock on it. There is also no reference to the safety gate.I wonder if there was a chain there during the McCanns' holiday?
Yes the central third opens, IMO it hinges inwards electrically, operated by that control, and then closes automatically? It does not look like a handle. Would a child be able to operate it? If not then venturing further down street might be explained? There were 4 of these controls IMO, one on each side of the outer and inner doors. In streetview 2015 the outside control on the outer door has been removed and replaced by a code keypad on the wall, but you can see a control on the inner door is still there.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on October 11, 2015, 03:38:23 AM
Yes the central third opens, IMO it hinges inwards electrically, operated by that control, and then closes automatically? It does not look like a handle. Would a child be able to operate it? There were 4 of these controls, one on each side of the outer and inner doors. In streetview 2015 the outside control on the outer door has been removed and replaced by a code keypad on the wall, but you can see a control on the inner door is still there.
I will search tomorrow, but I seem to remember something about a special card of some description was required. Is that a slot on the left of the handle? Night all.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 11, 2015, 03:52:13 AM
I will search tomorrow, but I seem to remember something about a special card of some description was required. Is that a slot on the left of the handle? Night all.
The control is a round thing. Beside it is a symbol of a person. It could be a button, or a round circular knob which you have to rotate to open the electric door?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 11, 2015, 04:50:17 PM
The waiter statements are to the effect that members of the public were entitled to dine in the Tapas restaurant in the evening (though they couldn't remember anyone doing it). The receptionist clocked off at the end of a normal working day.
How would a general member get into a key-card area during Tapas restaurant hours?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 12, 2015, 12:18:12 PM
The waiter statements are to the effect that members of the public were entitled to dine in the Tapas restaurant in the evening (though they couldn't remember anyone doing it). The receptionist clocked off at the end of a normal working day.
How would a general member get into a key-card area during Tapas restaurant hours?
In the theory by O'C the child walks to the supermarket car park. This route goes straight past the street door of the tapas reception building and needs to explain why the child does not go in that door. One possibility is that this street door was closed, and that the method of opening it, simple for adults, was not obvious to a small child. If this door appeared locked to a child, then walking further downhill might be the next instinctive action.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 12, 2015, 12:42:44 PM
In this case where wandering was definitely possible, questioning by police should have made it a priority to establish exactly what knowledge the child had of where the adults were. The questions which should have been put to the parents are: "At bedtime was the child told you would be out? Was the child told you would be at a restaurant? If so, was the child told generically a restaurant without saying which, or was the child told specifically which restaurant? And was the child also told that the other group adults would also be out?"
Also to examine whether or not a wandering child would be able to get through the tapas reception I would have asked all T9: "That evening when you passed through the tapas reception building were the outer and inner doors fixed in open position or did you need to open them? Were the doors electrically powered? What was the opening method? Was it a button? If not what was it? Did each door close automatically behind you?"
All those essential questions to determine which route a wandering child would take.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 12, 2015, 01:23:20 PM
In this case where wandering was definitely possible, questioning by police should have made it a priority to establish exactly what knowledge the child had of where the adults were. The questions which should have been put to the parents are: "At bedtime was the child told you would be out? Was the child told you would be at a restaurant? If so, was the child told generically a restaurant without saying which, or was the child told specifically which restaurant? And was the child also told that the other group adults would also be out?"
Also to examine whether or not a wandering child would be able to get through the tapas reception I would have asked all T9: "That evening when you passed through the tapas reception building were the outer and inner doors fixed in open position or did you need to open them? Were the doors electrically powered? What was the opening method? Was it a button? If not what was it? Did each door close automatically behind you?"
All those essential questions to determine which route a wandering child would take.
At the time the police responded - none of them knew the layout of the Ocean Club - none of then knew how Luz worked - none of them knew that Madeleine was always in the mini club - none of them knew the T9 always dined in the Tapas zone. They had, and still have, a basic ignorance of the Ocean Club and how it worked.
Presenter - "Tell me now about the crime scene itself."
DCI Andy Redword - "Yes, I mean the family with their three children were in apartment G five A. This was on the edge of a sort of contained area which was known as the Ocean Club, within which there was a Tapas bar and swimming pools and tennis court. But the actual apartments where they were staying was was outside that perimeter area and it was, effectively, from front and back, accessible to the public. The front door was accessed by a car park and then the rear entrance was a side set of steps that lead up and into a rear balcony area that go into and through patio doors."
OG in 2013 was working at a level of knowledge that does not extend to the mechanism of the Tapas reception door.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 12, 2015, 07:10:22 PM
At the time the police responded - none of them knew the layout of the Ocean Club - none of then knew how Luz worked - none of them knew that Madeleine was always in the mini club - none of them knew the T9 always dined in the Tapas zone. They had, and still have, a basic ignorance of the Ocean Club and how it worked.
Presenter - "Tell me now about the crime scene itself."
DCI Andy Redword - "Yes, I mean the family with their three children were in apartment G five A. This was on the edge of a sort of contained area which was known as the Ocean Club, within which there was a Tapas bar and swimming pools and tennis court. But the actual apartments where they were staying was was outside that perimeter area and it was, effectively, from front and back, accessible to the public. The front door was accessed by a car park and then the rear entrance was a side set of steps that lead up and into a rear balcony area that go into and through patio doors."
OG in 2013 was working at a level of knowledge that does not extend to the mechanism of the Tapas reception door.
Let's hope OG at least understand the method of opening the window and shutter from outside. That really is absolutely essential before investigating any scenario whatsoever (wandering or abduction or burglary or accident or other). Also it would be fairly easy for them to obtain an actual stairgate of that make and model and use it to understand how it works and formulate questions for interviews accordingly (because closed does not equal locked). And fairly easy to find out how the tapas reception doors worked at that time and whether that evening they were fixed open or required opening and what the opening method was. All very basic mechanics but essential stuff which SH would have done the day he was handed the case.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 12, 2015, 08:35:11 PM
Let's hope OG at least understand the method of opening the window and shutter from outside. That really is absolutely essential before investigating any scenario whatsoever (wandering or abduction or burglary or accident or other). Also it would be fairly easy for them to obtain an actual stairgate of that make and model and use it to understand how it works and formulate questions for interviews accordingly (because closed does not equal locked). And fairly easy to find out how the tapas reception doors worked at that time and whether that evening they were fixed open or required opening and what the opening method was. All very basic mechanics but essential stuff which SH would have done the day he was handed the case.
I doubt very much if OG are pursuing the woke and wandered theory ... it was not mentioned in the Crimewatch appeal.
Home invasions were. As was the man seen carrying a child.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 12, 2015, 08:53:35 PM
I doubt very much if OG are pursuing the woke and wandered theory ... it was not mentioned in the Crimewatch appeal.
Home invasions were. As was the man seen carrying a child.
You may well be right. The Crimewatch appeal however is now two years old. It is just possible that in a live investigation worked on by a squad of 30+ other lines of inquiry have emerged in that amount of lapsed time. That coupled with the deathly 'ush from DCI N. Wall means we know what the MPS wanted us to know in October 2013. Which wasn't a fat lot other than Tannerman had been fragged and Smithman was a person of interest and the time line in which an abduction could have taken place was then a bit different from that which had obtained for the first six years. Not forgetting Andy's weird syntax which kept threads on here alive and kicking for 24 months about "what he really meant was....."
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 12, 2015, 10:04:38 PM
You may well be right. The Crimewatch appeal however is now two years old. It is just possible that in a live investigation worked on by a squad of 30+ other lines of inquiry have emerged in that amount of lapsed time. That coupled with the deathly 'ush from DCI N. Wall means we know what the MPS wanted us to know in October 2013. Which wasn't a fat lot other than Tannerman had been fragged and Smithman was a person of interest and the time line in which an abduction could have taken place was then a bit different from that which had obtained for the first six years. Not forgetting Andy's weird syntax which kept threads on here alive and kicking for 24 months about "what he really meant was....."
IMO it was woken and wandered - woken by someone opening that shutter, and wandered out of that bedroom, but maybe not as far as outdoors
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on October 12, 2015, 11:36:09 PM
I very much doubt OG would only be pursuing ONE line of inquiry...that makes no sense whatsoever
We know that they are pursuing more than one line of inquiry having discarded the more improbable and those without evidence to support them.
The Policia Judicairia and Scotland yard reviewed the case independently of each other. Both came up with new evidence which enabled the case to be reopened. Neither mentioned the woke and wandered theory ... which if you remember was also discarded very early on by the initial investigation in favour of one line of inquiry which instead of following the evidence followed the theory.
JOSE MANUEL OLIVEIRA Crime reporter, 'Diario de Noticias' Information started circulating from sources connected to the Portuguese police that the story was full of holes from the side of the McCanns and their friends. Indeed within two days of Madeleine disappearing, this crime correspondent was filing this piece in the Portuguese Daily: Diario of the Noticias: "Headline: a badly told story." We started to receive information according to which the police suspected the theory they had apprehensions, didn't believe the theory that she had been kidnapped. To conclude, the police started to suspect the parents from the word go. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/7106086.stm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 13, 2015, 01:57:08 AM
I doubt very much if OG are pursuing the woke and wandered theory ... it was not mentioned in the Crimewatch appeal. ...(snip)
True, SY on crimewatch didn't mention woke and wandered. But SY have mentioned attempted burglary. And SY have mentioned entry from outside via window. What SY appear to have not done is to think through what the response of a child would be to someone opening the bedroom shutter, and how easily this could be the reason for waking and also a compelling reason for wandering (aka running away from danger, certainly as far as another room, and possibly even further).
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2015, 09:52:36 AM
True, SY on crimewatch didn't mention woke and wandered. But SY have mentioned attempted burglary. And SY have mentioned entry from outside via window. What SY appear to have not done is to think through what the response of a child would be to someone opening the bedroom shutter, and how easily this could be the reason for waking and also a compelling reason for wandering (aka running away from danger, certainly as far as another room, and possibly even further).
In a step forward from the original investigation which had discarded the evidence of the open window and raised shutter in preference for the theory of 'fabrication' to authenticate Madeleine's abduction, we have seen photographs of the Rebelo investigators looking very carefully at the possibilities and probabilities concerned with both the sliding door and the bedroom window.
We have no evidence that either investigation considered this in correlation with the then known fact of home invasions nearby as well as within the confines of the apartment block where the McCann family were in residence.
In fact we have little of substance emanating from the Rebelo investigation other than diligences in an attempt to retrieve CCTV footage from the highways ~ correspondence concerning a reconstitution ~ a British visit curtailed by the necessity to return to Portugal to plug more pejorative leaks ~ newspaper reports that the investigation was revisiting the abduction theory. That Rebelo took care to ensure that a fax from British police was placed in the files would seem to confirm his interest in that direction. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2512536/Madeleine-McCann-was-snatched-by-paedophile-ring-to-order.html
The time wasted in chasing shadows in Madeleine McCann's case is heartbreaking. Had the evidence been followed from the 3rd May instead of careering down a dead end path, we might have been having a different conversation today. Or maybe none at all as a little girl might have been returned to the bosom of her family.
Public Ministry archived the process because no indicium of guilt of the McCanns was proved, 04 August 2008 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id151.html
Portugal's top detective, Alipio Ribeiro, says in a radio interview that police were "hasty" in making Madeleine's parents suspects in her disappearance. http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/law_order/timeline+madeleine+mccann+case/774547.html
Given the volume of evidence they had to wade through and with the benefit of hindsight being able to differentiate the good the bad from the official records, I seriously doubt that either the Policia Judicairia or Scotland Yard did not give full consideration to all theories including the 'woke and wandered' one.
I do not think there is the slightest doubt it has been discarded by three professionally conducted inquiries.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2015, 10:47:57 AM
An assault on a child in the metropolis of Luz and an entry in the flat immediately above 5A hardly "kills off" the assaults on children involving home invasions ... denied for so long as never having happened at all, so I suppose acceptance that they did indeed happen is a step forward.
Ignored ... just as the archiving report is ignored. But facts nonetheless.
Is there a deflection team in operation? There are posters around who seem anxious to speak about anything but the theme of threads.
My post was about the 'woke and wandered' theory ... why not attempt to answer that?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 13, 2015, 11:05:41 AM
There is no 'deflection team'.
Likewise the 'investigation' has found nothing.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 13, 2015, 11:06:03 AM
Adding a would-be burglar opening the window from outside would provide an urgent reason for a child to leave the apartment alone, making MWT's theory plausible. Of course if that improved version of MWT's theory is correct, the crime scene would have featured an open shutter and window and a child missing from the apartment, and where in the files is any statement saying that?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2015, 11:13:07 AM
You insist in stalking me. Is it an attempt to goad? Or is it anything at all to disrupt the flow of the forum? Now as I was saying ... I think it is perfectly clear that three out of four professional investigation have identified stranger abduction rather than woke and wandered as what may have happened to Madeleine McCann.
Care to debate, with evidence, why that may not be so ... since you appear to be so vehemently of another opinion, although that is not really clear since you haven't given the courtesy of voicing it.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 13, 2015, 11:15:44 AM
You insist in stalking me. Is it an attempt to goad? Or is it anything at all to disrupt the flow of the forum? Now as I was saying ... I think it is perfectly clear that three out of four professional investigation have identified stranger abduction rather than woke and wandered as what may have happened to Madeleine McCann.
Care to debate, with evidence, why that may not be so ... since you appear to be so vehemently of another opinion, although that is not really clear since you haven't given the courtesy of voicing it.
There is no stalking or goading.
Mccann supporter abuse of a sceptic, by the numbers.
The investigations have found nothing.
If you think they have, where is Madeleine then ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2015, 11:28:39 AM
Adding a would-be burglar opening the window from outside would provide an urgent reason for a child to leave the apartment alone, making MWT's theory plausible. Of course if that improved version of MWT's theory is correct, the crime scene would have featured an open shutter and window and a child missing from the apartment, and where in the files is any statement saying that?
Apart from the photographs of fingerprinting and a record of those forensics which were not destroyed by inept harvesting, there is little, if any comment by the first investigation about the window scenario except for the later suggestion of 'staging'.
The Rebelo investigation were seen checking it out thoroughly.
Given the saturation media coverage, I think if the initial investigation had performed a similar diligence, we would have had photographic evidence of it.
We know that the initial investigation did not follow the woke and wandered theory, nor it seems have subsequent investigations.
I believe had Madeleine wandered on 3rd May ... she would not have vanished without trace.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 13, 2015, 12:55:50 PM
An assault on a child in the metropolis of Luz and an entry in the flat immediately above 5A hardly "kills off" the assaults on children involving home invasions ... denied for so long as never having happened at all, so I suppose acceptance that they did indeed happen is a step forward.
Ignored ... just as the archiving report is ignored. But facts nonetheless.
Is there a deflection team in operation? There are posters around who seem anxious to speak about anything but the theme of threads.
My post was about the 'woke and wandered' theory ... why not attempt to answer that?
Red bit. I can't find a reference to that one in Dave Edgar's stuff. Do you have a link to the report of the event? Green bit. You don't need an above average intelligence to know that holiday resorts are targets for burglars not to mention burglary being a common risk wherever one is.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2015, 01:16:25 PM
Red bit. I can't find a reference to that one in Dave Edgar's stuff. Do you have a link to the report of the event? Green bit. You don't need an above average intelligence to know that holiday resorts are targets for burglars not to mention burglary being a common risk wherever one is.
I will accept that rather than being tiresome in asking for cites to something which has been established and is well known to all on these boards, it is something which has just flown over your head. Particularly as the very first googly thing I tried (always amazed how my google button is superior to some others) produced that rather than one home invasion in Luz involving one child ... Scotland Yard are investigating two.
**Snip Redwood said if names were put forward for the most serious case of sexual assault, his team would be able to eliminate them from inquiries, suggesting the police may have DNA evidence.
Nine of the 12 incidents were reported to Portuguese police at the time but British investigators learned of three only when the victims came forward in response to televised appeals last autumn.
In the attacks, the suspect may have been in the villa or looking around the villa for some time before committing the offences or being disturbed either by a parent coming in, or the child waking up, say police. On two occasions the noise of a refuse collection lorry could be heard nearby.
Of the 12 offences being investigated, four took place in Carvoeiro, six in Vale da Parra, Praia da Gale district, and two in Praia da Luz. Detectives have previously suggested Madeleine may have been abducted in a planned operation that had included individuals exploring the resort beforehand. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
No mention at all of the woke and wandered theory ... but an obviously active interest in home invasions involving British children ... which I think is appropriate, given that these cases have not been solved ... and a British child has gone missing from her bed.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 13, 2015, 01:52:07 PM
I will accept that rather than being tiresome in asking for cites to something which has been established and is well known to all on these boards, it is something which has just flown over your head. Particularly as the very first googly thing I tried (always amazed how my google button is superior to some others) produced that rather than one home invasion in Luz involving one child ... Scotland Yard are investigating two.
**Snip Redwood said if names were put forward for the most serious case of sexual assault, his team would be able to eliminate them from inquiries, suggesting the police may have DNA evidence.
Nine of the 12 incidents were reported to Portuguese police at the time but British investigators learned of three only when the victims came forward in response to televised appeals last autumn.
In the attacks, the suspect may have been in the villa or looking around the villa for some time before committing the offences or being disturbed either by a parent coming in, or the child waking up, say police. On two occasions the noise of a refuse collection lorry could be heard nearby.
Of the 12 offences being investigated, four took place in Carvoeiro, six in Vale da Parra, Praia da Gale district, and two in Praia da Luz. Detectives have previously suggested Madeleine may have been abducted in a planned operation that had included individuals exploring the resort beforehand. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
No mention at all of the woke and wandered theory ... but an obviously active interest in home invasions involving British children ... which I think is appropriate, given that these cases have not been solved ... and a British child has gone missing from her bed.
A careful reading of this article tells us that 12 incidents have been discovered, taking place between 2004-2010, two of them in Luz. Of the 12 offences only 4 involved children and they took place between 2004-2006. One of these involved 2 girls in the same premises. All the girls were aged between 7 and 10 years of age. In 6 of the cases the man sat on the victim's bed. Was one victim an adult because only 5 children were involved altogether? The incidents happened between 3am and 5am.
So, there is nothing to say that the 2 incidents in Luz involved children. (Luz is not a metropolis btw, it's a town at most) The children were all older than Madeleine. The intruder entered during the dead of night not in the evening. No children were taken. Probably worth investigating, but Madeleine's case had a completely different scenario. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 13, 2015, 02:26:55 PM
I will accept that rather than being tiresome in asking for cites to something which has been established and is well known to all on these boards, it is something which has just flown over your head. Particularly as the very first googly thing I tried (always amazed how my google button is superior to some others) produced that rather than one home invasion in Luz involving one child ... Scotland Yard are investigating two.
**Snip Redwood said if names were put forward for the most serious case of sexual assault, his team would be able to eliminate them from inquiries, suggesting the police may have DNA evidence.
Nine of the 12 incidents were reported to Portuguese police at the time but British investigators learned of three only when the victims came forward in response to televised appeals last autumn.
In the attacks, the suspect may have been in the villa or looking around the villa for some time before committing the offences or being disturbed either by a parent coming in, or the child waking up, say police. On two occasions the noise of a refuse collection lorry could be heard nearby.
Of the 12 offences being investigated, four took place in Carvoeiro, six in Vale da Parra, Praia da Gale district, and two in Praia da Luz. Detectives have previously suggested Madeleine may have been abducted in a planned operation that had included individuals exploring the resort beforehand. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
No mention at all of the woke and wandered theory ... but an obviously active interest in home invasions involving British children ... which I think is appropriate, given that these cases have not been solved ... and a British child has gone missing from her bed.
Apart from the article not confirming what you said, what about the green bit in my post? you failed to comment on that. How do you account for Dave Edgar not turning up two "attacks" in Luz? Do you have your childish put downs on a one button macro?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2015, 03:43:33 PM
Apart from the article not confirming what you said, what about the green bit in my post? you failed to comment on that. How do you account for Dave Edgar not turning up two "attacks" in Luz? Do you have your childish put downs on a one button macro?
Do you know offhand if Dave Edgar had been given access to the police files containing the data regarding the attacks on British children? If you don't know ... why on earth do you imagine I would?
However the information on the attacks involving British children in the Algarve region should have been known to the initial investigation.
Making the question not about what Dave Edgar did or did not "turn up" ... but what the initial investigation did or did not do.
Initially, working to solve those cases known to them.
Latterly in consideration of a possible link to Madeleine's disappearance and a possible line of inquiry. Shoddy police work indeed.
That there were many more avenues open for investigation than the wakened and walked one is evident ... that they may not have been looked at in the depth deserved is evidenced by the fact it took the Scotland Yard investigation to put them into the public domain.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 13, 2015, 03:49:45 PM
Do you know offhand if Dave Edgar had been given access to the police files containing the data regarding the attacks on British children? If you don't know ... why on earth do you imagine I would?
However the information on the attacks involving British children in the Algarve region should have been known to the initial investigation.
Making the question not about what Dave Edgar did or did not "turn up" ... but what the initial investigation did or did not do.
Initially, working to solve those cases known to them.
Latterly in consideration of a possible link to Madeleine's disappearance and a possible line of inquiry. Shoddy police work indeed.
That there were many more avenues open for investigation than the wakened and walked one is evident ... that they may not have been looked at in the depth deserved is evidenced by the fact it took the Scotland Yard investigation to put them into the public domain.
I said something like that in my post 292 a couple of days ago. Apart from my not sayig anything like your customary pop at the original investigation that is. Hey ho says Rowley.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2015, 05:53:29 PM
I said something like that in my post 292 a couple of days ago. Apart from my not sayig anything like your customary pop at the original investigation that is. Hey ho says Rowley.
In that case you seem to think we at least have a meeting of minds on one salient point.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on October 14, 2015, 01:38:41 AM
@ Pegasus The remark about an access card to the Tapas reception
Subsequently, at 17h00, the whole group, including children, went to the TAPAS situated at the back of the apartments, next to the pool, to attend a welcoming committee arranged by MARK WARNER where they met with instructors in tennis and sailing and other resort employees, which ended at 18h30, glasses of sangria having been served to them.
----- That that was the first time they walked altogether along the route inside and around the resort. They left by the front door, which he locked with the key, he followed the wall around and turned right, going down the side road to the resort up to the secondary reception where the entered without difficulty as they had an access card that they did not ask for but they had been given during the Check-in.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 14, 2015, 01:26:47 PM
Subsequently, at 17h00, the whole group, including children, went to the TAPAS situated at the back of the apartments, next to the pool, to attend a welcoming committee arranged by MARK WARNER where they met with instructors in tennis and sailing and other resort employees, which ended at 18h30, glasses of sangria having been served to them.
----- That that was the first time they walked altogether along the route inside and around the resort. They left by the front door, which he locked with the key, he followed the wall around and turned right, going down the side road to the resort up to the secondary reception where the entered without difficulty as they had an access card that they did not ask for but they had been given during the Check-in.
Thankyou Misty. Very interesting. Do you think it is was a card to show to staff to gain access to through tapas reception, or a plastic card that one must insert in a slot to open the electric doors of the tapas reception entrance?
If the child wandered downhill would she have been able to open the tapas reception doors?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 14, 2015, 01:50:41 PM
Thankyou Misty. Very interesting. Do you think it is was a card to show to staff to gain access to through tapas reception, or a plastic card that one must insert in a slot to open the electric doors of the tapas reception entrance?
If the child wandered downhill would she have been able to open the tapas reception doors?
When asked, he says that in order to enter the restaurant it is necessary to present a guest card at the restaurant reception. However, and only for this year the restaurant has been open to public from outside the resort but that in any case he does not remember having seen anyone who was not a guest having had a meal there. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on October 14, 2015, 05:00:18 PM
When asked, he says that in order to enter the restaurant it is necessary to present a guest card at the restaurant reception. However, and only for this year the restaurant has been open to public from outside the resort but that in any case he does not remember having seen anyone who was not a guest having had a meal there. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
Thank you, well found. Here is an elaboration of the access card (I wonder if it was the electronic type):-
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RITA_SILVA.htm
*snipped* Concerning the keys to the apartments of Mark Warner clients, the keys are given by the OC reception to Mark Warner who gives them to the clients.
The same is the case with an access card which allows for access to all the services of the OC. This card too, is treated as is the keys (above) and is handed out one per person. Mark Warner hands these cards to its clients.
These access cards are given to each client (including babies and children), and besides permitting access to services offered by the Ocean Club, is equally used for buying drinks and food. Later, these charges are added to the respective apartment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
This piece is interesting:- http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ELISA.htm (trainee receptionist, at Tapas that day until 1900) *snipped* She does not remember this year whether somebody entered the reception and went to the pool or the restaurant without due authorization. In any event, on previous years, namely last year, several children and adults entered the premises without authorization in order to use the pool.
Access to the Tapas Bar/Restaurant seems to have been a mass of contradictions. On the one hand, guests had to have an access card to dine and booking a table was difficult. On the other hand, it was open to the public. I wonder how the owner/occupiers managed? So theoretically, anyone could have been in the bar/restaurant/pool area that night, possibly watching the parents' movements.
Could Madeleine have opened the door on her own? She had been through it enough times with her parents and the nannies to have watched how it opened - it must have opened automatically via a sensor if there was no proper handle or cardswipe
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 14, 2015, 05:52:03 PM
Thank you, well found. Here is an elaboration of the access card (I wonder if it was the electronic type):-
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RITA_SILVA.htm
*snipped* Concerning the keys to the apartments of Mark Warner clients, the keys are given by the OC reception to Mark Warner who gives them to the clients.
The same is the case with an access card which allows for access to all the services of the OC. This card too, is treated as is the keys (above) and is handed out one per person. Mark Warner hands these cards to its clients.
These access cards are given to each client (including babies and children), and besides permitting access to services offered by the Ocean Club, is equally used for buying drinks and food. Later, these charges are added to the respective apartment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
This piece is interesting:- http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ELISA.htm (trainee receptionist, at Tapas that day until 1900) *snipped* She does not remember this year whether somebody entered the reception and went to the pool or the restaurant without due authorization. In any event, on previous years, namely last year, several children and adults entered the premises without authorization in order to use the pool.
Access to the Tapas Bar/Restaurant seems to have been a mass of contradictions. On the one hand, guests had to have an access card to dine and booking a table was difficult. On the other hand, it was open to the public. I wonder how the owner/occupiers managed? So theoretically, anyone could have been in the bar/restaurant/pool area that night, possibly watching the parents' movements.
Could Madeleine have opened the door on her own? She had been through it enough times with her parents and the nannies to have watched how it opened - it must have opened automatically via a sensor if there was no proper handle or cardswipe
However they were operating it seems to have been a haphazard situation indeed.
Was it Jez who popped in to use the toilet? He may have had his guest card on him, but if the door opened using a sensor he wouldn't have needed to. I wonder if it was normal practice for members of the public just to pop in to use the toilet?
What was the system for carry-out meals? Did they have to be telephone booked or were members of the public able to pop in and wait for a meal to be made for them?
The fact that anyone at all could have been in the tapas makes even more of a nonsense of the amateur detective hours spent poring over the list of diners.
I think it is becoming clearer that theoretically Madeleine could indeed have reached the tapas ... if open to the public I think the use of a card is ruled out in favour of an automated opening system.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 15, 2015, 06:47:56 PM
Were the tapas reception doors closed and if so did the child know how to open them?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on October 15, 2015, 06:53:30 PM
Were the tapas reception doors closed and if so did the child know how to open them?
If they were automated by sensor then Madeleine would not have required any prior instruction. As I said before, she must have been through them daily with the nannies on her way to tennis or high tea so, if any manual operating was required, it would have depended on her observation skills.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 15, 2015, 10:00:10 PM
If they were automated by sensor then Madeleine would not have required any prior instruction. As I said before, she must have been through them daily with the nannies on her way to tennis or high tea so, if any manual operating was required, it would have depended on her observation skills.
A pressure mat would depend on the child being heavy enough. An infra red beam would depend on the child being tall enough. Any way, add the italic words "it was like dining at the end of the garden but with an electric door on a public street which was invisible from the table, between dining table and house "
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 15, 2015, 10:05:43 PM
"a road that runs parallel to the supermarket near to the Tapas Bar and the McCanns' apartment" (rmorgan statement) Q. Which road is accurately described by that description? A. Rua Martins. ETA map large round inspection covers on R Martins
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 22, 2015, 03:34:28 PM
Brit tourist RM clearly stated seeing an open manhole that night and said he thought someone could have not seen it in the dark and fallen down it. I thought that was the only mention of a manhole that night, but then I found this
"I thought maybe she had fallen down a manhole ..." (source: brit tourist [Name removed] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html )
Is it possible that tourist [Name removed] saw the same open manhole which tourist RM saw? Is this a way in the MWT theory for someone to instantly disappear from the street without any need for an abductor?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on October 22, 2015, 03:56:02 PM
Unless it suffers death, or receives a devastating head injury while falling in this hole, any small child is likely to be screaming its little head off, so is likely be noticed .
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 22, 2015, 04:27:09 PM
Unless it suffers death, or receives a devastating head injury while falling in this hole, any small child is likely to be screaming its little head off, so is likely be noticed .
That may be true but only if there no possibility of forced horizontal motion. So that rules out manholes for mainswater, elec, gas, cable, phone, and probably foulwater too This leaves only the type rainwater which is larger diam pipe.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 22, 2015, 04:52:13 PM
Brit tourist RM clearly stated seeing an open manhole that night and said he thought someone could have not seen it in the dark and fallen down it. I thought that was the only mention of a manhole that night, but then I found this
"I thought maybe she had fallen down a manhole ..." (source: brit tourist [Name removed] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html )
Is it possible that tourist [Name removed] saw the same open manhole which tourist RM saw? Is this a way in the MWT theory for someone to instantly disappear from the street without any need for an abductor?
She sounds very much like the type of person who if she had noticed an open manhole would have ensured it was thoroughly checked out, particularly if there was the slightest chance a child could be in it. At the time she thought Madeleine had only wandered and she checked bins for her, therefore I think if she had seen an uncovered manhole in the areas she searched, she would have reported it.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 22, 2015, 05:16:52 PM
She sounds very much like the type of person who if she had noticed an open manhole would have ensured it was thoroughly checked out, particularly if there was the slightest chance a child could be in it. At the time she thought Madeleine had only wandered and she checked bins for her, therefore I think if she had seen an uncovered manhole in the areas she searched, she would have reported it.
IMO the only logical explanation for witness [Name removed] saying "I thought maybe she had fallen down a manhole" is that she had actually seen an open manhole.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 22, 2015, 05:23:33 PM
What is round and exactly half-way between the lamppost and the reception door? It's not a riddle.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 22, 2015, 07:03:04 PM
IMO the only logical explanation for witness [Name removed] saying "I thought maybe she had fallen down a manhole" is that she had actually seen an open manhole.
She was an excellent witness who noted quite a few details which others may have glossed over.
Had she seen an open manhole she would have said so. Had she seen an open manhole it is my opinion she would have called it to the attention of other searchers and had it checked out.
The continuation of her sentence mentioning the manhole was " ... ,or hit her head". The manhole was a throwaway remark ... such as 'vanished into thin air'.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 22, 2015, 08:04:14 PM
Brit tourist RM clearly stated seeing an open manhole that night and said he thought someone could have not seen it in the dark and fallen down it. I thought that was the only mention of a manhole that night, but then I found this
"I thought maybe she had fallen down a manhole ..." (source: brit tourist [Name removed] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html )
Is it possible that tourist [Name removed] saw the same open manhole which tourist RM saw? Is this a way in the MWT theory for someone to instantly disappear from the street without any need for an abductor?
I think the article about tourist [Name removed] has to be taken with a dose of salt. As far as we know JW didn't search at all;
As they and the other holidaymakers combed the area, Mrs Jensen met another member of her tennis coaching group, TV producer Jez Wilkins. "Jez told me it was Gerry's daughter we were looking for. I hadn't realised before that moment. "Jez said that he knew Gerry had checked the children because he had met him coming back from the apartment."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html#ixzz3pKDNQZkh Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on October 22, 2015, 08:06:18 PM
She was an excellent witness who noted quite a few details which others may have glossed over.
Had she seen an open manhole she would have said so. Had she seen an open manhole it is my opinion she would have called it to the attention of other searchers and had it checked out.
The continuation of her sentence mentioning the manhole was " ... ,or hit her head". The manhole was a throwaway remark ... such as 'vanished into thin air'.
[Name removed] had been in Luz for a couple of weeks. It is highly likely she had encountered a few uncovered manholes, given the roadworks which were being carried out at the time.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 22, 2015, 10:30:36 PM
She was an excellent witness who noted quite a few details which others may have glossed over.
Had she seen an open manhole she would have said so. Had she seen an open manhole it is my opinion she would have called it to the attention of other searchers and had it checked out.
The continuation of her sentence mentioning the manhole was " ... ,or hit her head". The manhole was a throwaway remark ... such as 'vanished into thin air'.
"I thought maybe she had fallen down a manhole ..." is not a throwaway remark. It is a very specific fear, very probably based IMO on having seen an open manhole that evening. Exactly the same fear as stated by tourist RM who definitely did see an open manhole "I am concerned that she may have fallen down the manhole and was not seen".
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 22, 2015, 10:57:18 PM
"I thought maybe she had fallen down a manhole ..." is not a throwaway remark. It is a very specific fear, very probably based IMO on having seen an open manhole that evening. Exactly the same fear as stated by tourist RM who definitely did see an open manhole "I am concerned that she may have fallen down the manhole and was not seen".
I cannot find anything about the tourist who saw the cover off the manhole. Do you have a cite? From what I remember he was returning home and was unaware at the time that a little girl was missing.
Ms Jensen was actively searching for a missing child ... do you think it feasible that having seen an uncovered manhole she would not have raised merry hell about it?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Anna on October 22, 2015, 11:10:46 PM
I cannot find anything about the tourist who saw the cover off the manhole. Do you have a cite? From what I remember he was returning home and was unaware at the time that a little girl was missing.
Ms Jensen was actively searching for a missing child ... do you think it feasible that having seen an uncovered manhole she would not have raised merry hell about it?
Is this it? http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post552.html#p552
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 22, 2015, 11:16:08 PM
I cannot find anything about the tourist who saw the cover off the manhole. Do you have a cite? From what I remember he was returning home and was unaware at the time that a little girl was missing.
Ms Jensen was actively searching for a missing child ... do you think it feasible that having seen an uncovered manhole she would not have raised merry hell about it?
Morgan is the name Brietta, and the street that fits his description best is Rua Martins IMO.
It's interesting that the other witness ([Name removed]) who mentions a manhole, had just walked from tapas reception downhill along Rua Martins towards the town centre, when she heard the noise of the alarm being raised.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 22, 2015, 11:30:20 PM
There were cars using & parked on that road, Pegasus. I thought you'd be looking more at the side road junction towards the laundry.
I posted this one first only because it would combine MWT theory (wandered then disappeared near tapas reception) and a GNR dog (lost scent between lamppost and tapas reception?).
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on October 23, 2015, 03:20:22 AM
I posted this one first only because it would combine MWT theory (wandered then disappeared near tapas reception) and a GNR dog (lost scent between lamppost and tapas reception?).
If Madeleine had fallen down the manhole there, then it would have been expected the GNR specialist dogs show a lot of interest. I also don't think a manhole along that stretch of road to the supermarket would have remained uncovered for very long because of certain damage to vehicles. I think she would have remained on the pavement until the first junction, had she wandered.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 23, 2015, 12:32:19 PM
If Madeleine had fallen down the manhole there, then it would have been expected the GNR specialist dogs show a lot of interest. I also don't think a manhole along that stretch of road to the supermarket would have remained uncovered for very long because of certain damage to vehicles. I think she would have remained on the pavement until the first junction, had she wandered.
Yes the most likely place for a manhole with both cover and frame removed is the town centre area which was being completely resurfaced, and that would place it possibly on Rua H Baptista. But Rua Martins fits witness RM's description much better IMO - because it is near the apartment and tapas, as the witness states
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 23, 2015, 05:01:41 PM
Yes the most likely place for a manhole with both cover and frame removed is the town centre area which was being completely resurfaced, and that would place it possibly on Rua H Baptista. But Rua Martins fits witness RM's description much better IMO - because it is near the apartment and tapas, as the witness states
**Snip I would further like to say that in connection with the disappearance of Madeleine, I saw a manhole with a cover removed.
This manhole is situated on a junction of a road that runs parallel to the supermarket near to the Tapas Bar and the McCanns apartment. The cover along with the surround that been removed and placed to the side of the road.
The road is lit by street lighting but I believe you would not have seen the hole and anyone could have fallen in.
I returned the next day and noticed that the cover had been replaced. I am concerned that she may have fallen down the manhole and was not seen. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post552.html#p552
Mr Morgan's undated statement is quite specific that the men who raised his concerns visited their villa on the day Madeleine disappeared.
He does not specify exactly when he saw the uncovered manhole although he thought it pertinent to mention it in relation to the circumstances.
We watched Scotland Yard lifting manhole covers and checking drains ... is it possible this is a diligence which wasn't carried out at the time of Madeleine's disappearance ... particularly if witnesses like Mr Morgan had flagged up open manholes in the vicinity?
The interior of the manholes which Heri photographed portray only small apertures for drainage ... "I saw manholes in all Praia da Luz streets, and even in the small isolated hill to the West. I took photos of many of them, including the inside of two, where you can see that the connecting pipes are too small in diameter for a toddler body. And it is not impossible but not easy to open it without proper tools, as the ones used by the maintenance personnel. Were all these manholes properly searched?" http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CZmXrfctJQE/UBKsIqaj67I/AAAAAAAABUw/mhvFnXCdMH4/s320/manhole03.JPG) ... was the interior of the open manhole Mr Morgan worried about like this one? Apart from his statement there seems to be no other information about it.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Anna on October 23, 2015, 05:34:48 PM
**Snip I would further like to say that in connection with the disappearance of Madeleine, I saw a manhole with a cover removed.
This manhole is situated on a junction of a road that runs parallel to the supermarket near to the Tapas Bar and the McCanns apartment. The cover along with the surround that been removed and placed to the side of the road.
The road is lit by street lighting but I believe you would not have seen the hole and anyone could have fallen in.
I returned the next day and noticed that the cover had been replaced. I am concerned that she may have fallen down the manhole and was not seen. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post552.html#p552
Mr Morgan's undated statement is quite specific that the men who raised his concerns visited their villa on the day Madeleine disappeared.
He does not specify exactly when he saw the uncovered manhole although he thought it pertinent to mention it in relation to the circumstances.
We watched Scotland Yard lifting manhole covers and checking drains ... is it possible this is a diligence which wasn't carried out at the time of Madeleine's disappearance ... particularly if witnesses like Mr Morgan had flagged up open manholes in the vicinity?
The interior of the manholes which Heri photographed portray only small apertures for drainage ... "I saw manholes in all Praia da Luz streets, and even in the small isolated hill to the West. I took photos of many of them, including the inside of two, where you can see that the connecting pipes are too small in diameter for a toddler body. And it is not impossible but not easy to open it without proper tools, as the ones used by the maintenance personnel. Were all these manholes properly searched?" http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CZmXrfctJQE/UBKsIqaj67I/AAAAAAAABUw/mhvFnXCdMH4/s320/manhole03.JPG) ... was the interior of the open manhole Mr Morgan worried about like this one? Apart from his statement there seems to be no other information about it.
Lots of manhole info here, if any good. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6083.msg239510#msg239510
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 23, 2015, 06:09:31 PM
Yes the most likely place for a manhole with both cover and frame removed is the town centre area which was being completely resurfaced, and that would place it possibly on Rua H Baptista. But Rua Martins fits witness RM's description much better IMO - because it is near the apartment and tapas, as the witness states
Mr M says it was on a junction - so the junction of two roads. Two road runs parallel to the supermarket, one in front (R Primeiro de Maio) and one behind (R Gentil Martins). They are joined by R Joaquim Teixeita, and at the junction of R Joaquim Teixeita and R Primeiro de Malo is a manhole cover. I think he was describing the supermarket as being near the Tapas bar and the McCann's apartment, not the road. Could this be the route the Jensen sisters were taking to the bars for their 'nightcap' too? Out of Tapas reception, turn right, turn right at supermarket then left down R Primeiro de Maio? Maybe they saw the same manhole cover off.
This manhole is situated on a junction of a road that runs parallel to the supermarket near to the Tapas Bar and the McCanns apartment. The cover along with the surround that been removed and placed to the side of the road. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/REX-MORGAN.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 23, 2015, 08:41:15 PM
Mr M says it was on a junction - so the junction of two roads. Two road runs parallel to the supermarket, one in front (R Primeiro de Maio) and one behind (R Gentil Martins). They are joined by R Joaquim Teixeita, and at the junction of R Joaquim Teixeita and R Primeiro de Malo is a manhole cover. I think he was describing the supermarket as being near the Tapas bar and the McCann's apartment, not the road. Could this be the route the Jensen sisters were taking to the bars for their 'nightcap' too? Out of Tapas reception, turn right, turn right at supermarket then left down R Primeiro de Maio? Maybe they saw the same manhole cover off.
This manhole is situated on a junction of a road that runs parallel to the supermarket near to the Tapas Bar and the McCanns apartment. The cover along with the surround that been removed and placed to the side of the road. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/REX-MORGAN.htm
If you look at that round manhole in road at the middle of junction Rua 1 Maio / Rua J Teixeira see the ring around it of different tarmac, that means (most of the large round manholes in PDL are the sam.) at some date the cover and the frame have been replaced (as per RM statement).
Also see there is another round manhole on the pavement on SE corner of this junction. A manhole on the pavement surface is probably more likely to be left open than one on the road surface? (no risk of damaging cars). Also more likely to be walked on by a pedestrian?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 23, 2015, 08:43:45 PM
BTW this junction (Rua 1 Maio / Rua Teixeira) was location of one of the appeals for information on Crimewatch it is where two men were seen talking loudly then walking away quietly at about 11pm.
Go to interactive map at http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Madeleine-McCann-s-parents-delighted-response-BBC/story-19935283-detail/story.html hover over the 23:00 event and you can watch a short video of the two men at this junction.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 23, 2015, 08:52:46 PM
(snip)... The interior of the manholes which Heri photographed portray only small apertures for drainage ...(snip) http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CZmXrfctJQE/UBKsIqaj67I/AAAAAAAABUw/mhvFnXCdMH4/s320/manhole03.JPG
Running under the middle of each street are usually two drains. One is the foulwater drain (Heri's photos). The other is the rainwater drain which IMO is larger diameter pipe (possibly as large as the pipes at the shore outlets).
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 23, 2015, 10:26:15 PM
If you look at that round manhole in road at the middle of junction Rua 1 Maio / Rua J Teixeira see the ring around it of different tarmac, that means (most of the large round manholes in PDL are the sam.) at some date the cover and the frame have been replaced (as per RM statement).
Also see there is another round manhole on the pavement on SE corner of this junction. A manhole on the pavement surface is probably more likely to be left open than one on the road surface? (no risk of damaging cars). Also more likely to be walked on by a pedestrian?
It could be either, I suppose. Both are dangerous unless they were fenced off somehow.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 24, 2015, 12:38:46 AM
It could be either, I suppose. Both are dangerous unless they were fenced off somehow.
Another interesting one is at the north end of Rua H Baptista because 1 Fits location description of tourist RM (on a junction of a road parallel to supermarket) 2 Was maybe? on route of tourist [Name removed] from tapas to town? 3 Is in the area that was being resurfaced in May 2007 4 Is on a mainly pedestrian area Here's how it looks now (obviously replaced with a fancy new cover and frame when they resurfaced this road in early 2007) ... photo to follow ...
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 24, 2015, 08:06:53 AM
Another interesting one is at the north end of Rua H Baptista because 1 Fits location description of tourist RM (on a junction of a road parallel to supermarket) 2 Was maybe? on route of tourist [Name removed] from tapas to town? 3 Is in the area that was being resurfaced in May 2007 4 Is on a mainly pedestrian area Here's how it looks now (obviously replaced with a fancy new cover and frame when they resurfaced this road in early 2007) ... photo to follow ...
Why, do you think, was Kate McCann adamant that Madeleine didn't wander?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on October 24, 2015, 10:12:23 AM
Why, do you think, was Kate McCann adamant that Madeleine didn't wander?
I think Kate McCann came to the conclusion that Madeleine didn't wander from a number of things.
The open window Kate said Madeleine wouldn't have opened it, the fact that the sliding doors were closed, the safety gate was closed and the gate at the bottom of the steps was also closed, Kate didn't think Madeleine would close everything behind her, remember the safety gate was at the top of the steps, what child would turn around and close a gate at the top of the steps in the dark? Plus Madeleine's shoes were still in the apartment.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on October 24, 2015, 10:14:41 AM
Another interesting one is at the north end of Rua H Baptista because 1 Fits location description of tourist RM (on a junction of a road parallel to supermarket) 2 Was maybe? on route of tourist [Name removed] from tapas to town? 3 Is in the area that was being resurfaced in May 2007 4 Is on a mainly pedestrian area Here's how it looks now (obviously replaced with a fancy new cover and frame when they resurfaced this road in early 2007) ... photo to follow ...
It isn't/wasn't mainly pedestrian. It had what was then the only Indian in town, the Maharajah. A string of shops, including the (then) only chemist and little Baptista, plus the commercial centre (where the video rental shop was). That is why it has many parking spaces.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 24, 2015, 10:22:19 AM
I think Kate McCann came to the conclusion that Madeleine didn't wander from a number of things.
The open window Kate said Madeleine wouldn't have opened it, the fact that the sliding doors were closed, the safety gate was closed and the gate at the bottom of the steps was also closed, Kate didn't think Madeleine would close everything behind her, remember the safety gate was at the top of the steps, what child would turn around and close a gate at the top of the steps in the dark? Plus Madeleine's shoes were still in the apartment.
do you have a quote where she said all that please?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 24, 2015, 08:06:14 PM
It isn't/wasn't mainly pedestrian. It had what was then the only Indian in town, the Maharajah. A string of shops, including the (then) only chemist and little Baptista, plus the commercial centre (where the video rental shop was). That is why it has many parking spaces.
IMO Rua H Batista in May 2007 had the surface removed ready for resurfacing. BTW the manhole I am talking about is this one see photo. As you can see it is now on a pedestrian surface, not parking, see bollards. What we see now is the new design cover and frame (partly inlaid with cobbles to make it look nicer), but back in early May 2007 it would have been the old style cover and frame.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on October 24, 2015, 08:44:56 PM
IMO Rua H Batista in May 2007 had the surface removed ready for resurfacing. BTW the manhole I am talking about is this one see photo. As you can see it is now on a pedestrian surface, not parking, see bollards. What we see now is the new design cover and frame (partly inlaid with cobbles to make it look nicer), but back in early May 2007 it would have been the old style cover and frame.
Weren't all open manholes and other excavations checked in the morning of the 4th? By the construction workers?
And if MM had fallen in the one opposite the Tapas Bar that night which I doubt was uncovered anyway, plus 4 yr olds are not always so unaware they wouldn't spot one, and avoid it, wouldn't the scent dogs have signalled right there?
Perhaps SY have used some of ther budget to dig up all manholes in the vicinity?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 24, 2015, 09:16:35 PM
Weren't all open manholes and other excavations checked in the morning of the 4th? By the construction workers?
And if MM had fallen in the one opposite the Tapas Bar that night which I doubt was uncovered anyway, plus 4 yr olds are not always so unaware they wouldn't spot one, and avoid it, wouldn't the scent dogs have signalled right there?
Perhaps SY have used some of ther budget to dig up all manholes in the vicinity?
Next morning two small trenches were checked before they were filled in. I don't see any evidence that even a single manhole was checked in those early searches - why would anyone bother checking if the cover and frame had been put back over the previously open hole?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on October 24, 2015, 09:36:26 PM
Next morning two small trenches were checked before they were filled in. I don't see any evidence that even a single manhole was checked in those early searches - why would anyone bother checking if the cover and frame had been put back over the previously open hole?
Ok thanks The impression I got was that were a huge amount of roadworks going on at the time...so it's hard to believe just two small trenches were checked and no manholes just opened, whether they had been opened and reshut nor not, seeing as how thorough the police were in the initial searches and investigations and the fact they were looking for a wandered child
IIRC the cadaver dog was taken along the whle route of those roadworks? Albeit a few months later (at least according to a newspaper - no compared this to the routes given in the police files)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 24, 2015, 10:04:34 PM
Ok thanks The impression I got was that were a huge amount of roadworks going on at the time...so it's hard to believe just two small trenches were checked and no manholes just opened, whether they had been opened and reshut nor not, seeing as how thorough the police were in the initial searches and investigations and the fact they were looking for a wandered child
IIRC the cadaver dog was taken along the whle route of those roadworks? Albeit a few months later (at least according to a newspaper - no compared this to the routes given in the police files)
Phase 1 of the resurfacing of part of the town centre was happening (remove old surface then lay new cobble-type surface). The two open trenches were just north of that area - those 2 trenches were checked next morning because they had been open through the night. If already before next morning the manhole cover and its frame (wherever it was) had already been put back in place to cover the open hole which witness RM had seen, there would be no reason for anyone to think of lifting it to look. There is no record in the files of anyone checking any manhole that night. IMO it is possible that someone during the early searches that night put the cover and frame back on?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 24, 2015, 10:16:17 PM
I trust the observation of the man who actually saw the open uncovered manhole:
"The road is lit by street lighting but I believe you would not have seen the hole and anyone could have fallen in"
Then why didn't the dogs stop there? The theory also suggests if she fell down one she wouldn't have shouted for help and with so many people around if she did why wouldn't she have been heard either
Which also begs the question if there was an open manhole right outside the tapas restaraunt wouldn't more people have mentioned it? Than just one?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 25, 2015, 01:46:53 AM
Then why didn't the dogs stop there? The theory also suggests if she fell down one she wouldn't have shouted for help and with so many people around if she did why wouldn't she have been heard either
Which also begs the question if there was an open manhole right outside the tapas restaraunt wouldn't more people have mentioned it? Than just one?
I don't know where the open manhole was Mercury - but there was one somewhere - because one witness described it. Why no other witness states seeing it I don't know. Possibly someone put the cover and frame back onto the hole just after that witness saw it?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on October 25, 2015, 01:02:35 AM
I don't know where the open manhole was Mercury - but there was one somewhere - because one witness described it. Why no other witness states seeing it I don't know. Possibly someone put the cover and frame back onto the hole just after that witness saw it?
Yea, Rex Morgan mentions it but doesn't give a date when he saw it or where, and as I said before re the scent dogs would have found Madeleine to there
the question often reverts to how is it possible that all these police forces and other agencies and all the millions and efforts can find NOTHING...then again maybe they have but we don't know that they have after all it's all secret now, like properly, no Ms Wall leaks or comments ever
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on October 25, 2015, 01:11:52 AM
Yea, Rex Morgan mentions it but doesn't give a date when he saw it or where, and as I said before re the scent dogs would have found Madeleine to there
the question often reverts to how is it possible that all these police forces and other agencies and all the millions and efforts can find NOTHING...then again maybe they have but we don't know that they have after all it's all secret now, like properly, no Ms Wall leaks or comments ever
I think the current investigation is having to look beyond the possibility of a few people, strangers to PdL, managing to pull off the crime of the century, with no apparent access to a vehicle & little more than a plastic bucket, spade & bin-liner to conceal a cadaver.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on October 25, 2015, 02:58:48 AM
I think the current investigation is having to look beyond the possibility of a few people, strangers to PdL, managing to pull off the crime of the century, with no apparent access to a vehicle & little more than a plastic bucket, spade & bin-liner to conceal a cadaver.
Keep your hair on and don't have a go at me lol
Would you self combust if SY/Met/MPs even suggtested the parents were culpable...how sad is that!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 25, 2015, 05:13:06 AM
Yea, Rex Morgan mentions it but doesn't give a date when he saw it or where, and as I said before re the scent dogs would have found Madeleine to there
the question often reverts to how is it possible that all these police forces and other agencies and all the millions and efforts can find NOTHING...then again maybe they have but we don't know that they have after all it's all secret now, like properly, no Ms Wall leaks or comments ever
RM states he saw the manhole with cover and frame removed, and then the next day he saw it with cover and frame replaced, and fears the child might have fallen down it - so it's fairly obvious in that context IMO, he saw it open on 3rd and then covered on 4th.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 25, 2015, 05:17:36 AM
I think the current investigation is having to look beyond the possibility of a few people, strangers to PdL, managing to pull off the crime of the century, with no apparent access to a vehicle & little more than a plastic bucket, spade & bin-liner to conceal a cadaver.
The two plastic buckets and spades were still outside the front door in PJ photo early hours 4th, they were removed morning 5th same time as the 2 large bags
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on October 25, 2015, 05:28:51 AM
The two plastic buckets and spades were still outside the front door in PJ photo early hours 4th, they were removed morning 5th same time as the 2 large bags
Wot? The McCanns never hid them? That was an oversight.
PS. We are going to have to stop meeting like this, in the middle of the night. But it's nice to talk to someone who is never unpleasant.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 25, 2015, 05:40:23 AM
Wot? The McCanns never hid them? That was an oversight.
PS. We are going to have to stop meeting like this, in the middle of the night. But it's nice to talk to someone who is never unpleasant.
The buckets and spades were outside the front door that night and were removed on the 5th, they were of no importance but in retrospect it's surprising the apartment contents were allowed to be removed too
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on October 25, 2015, 06:06:53 AM
The buckets and spades were outside the front door that night and were removed on the 5th, they were of no importance but in retrospect it's surprising the apartment contents were allowed to be removed too
There is a lot about the whole business that is surprising, including the suggestion that Gerry dug a grave on the beach with a plastic spade. Or have we moved on from there?
However, still no reasonable proof that Madeleine woke and wandered.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 25, 2015, 06:11:30 AM
There is a lot about the whole business that is surprising, including the suggestion that Gerry dug a grave on the beach with a plastic spade. Or have we moved on from there?
However, still no reasonable proof that Madeleine woke and wandered.
The plastic buckets/spades are completely irrelevant (except they just help to confirm a photo). IMO it was definitely woke and wandered out of that room, but I agree possibly not wandered out of the apartment.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on October 25, 2015, 06:22:26 AM
The plastic buckets/spades are completely irrelevant (except they just help to confirm a photo). IMO it was definitely woke and wandered out of that room, but I agree possibly not wandered out of the apartment.
Is your opinion to do with moving doors?
I think that the abductor was in the children's bedroom when Gerry checked at 9pm and had left to door farther open when he first entered, and then again when he left. Whether or not he passed Madeleine through the window or took her out through the front door doesn't really matter.
Do you think he chased Madeleine through to another room before abducting her?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 25, 2015, 08:13:10 AM
I think that the abductor was in the children's bedroom when Gerry checked at 9pm and had left to door farther open when he first entered, and then again when he left. Whether or not he passed Madeleine through the window or took her out through the front door doesn't really matter.
Do you think he chased Madeleine through to another room before abducting her?
and yet not one iota of evidence of an abductor or abductors ever entered/left the apartment.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on October 25, 2015, 08:29:58 AM
and yet not one iota of evidence of an abductor or abductors ever entered/left the apartment.
However this doesn't mean none ever existed. Agreed?
Who knows what evidence may have been overlooked by the less than perfect Forensic team - or how much evidence may have been destroyed by the traffic of people/policemen/dogs through the apartment until it was finally cordoned off.
IIRC partial fingerprints were found - which have never been identified.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 25, 2015, 08:40:00 AM
However this doesn't mean none ever existed. Agreed?
Who knows what evidence may have been overlooked by the less than perfect Forensic team - or how much evidence may have been destroyed by the traffic of people/policemen/dogs through the apartment until it was finally cordoned off.
IIRC partial fingerprints were found - which have never been identified.
You do realize the same logic applies to the accidental death or walking out of the apartment scenarios ?
As you know the crime scene was already disturbed before the police arrived.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on October 25, 2015, 08:47:28 AM
Stephen, answering a question with a question is such a passé thing to do. I sometimes wonder why you bother to post here at all.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 25, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
with the parents ruled out we are left with abduction or woke and wandered....for several reasons woke and wandered has been ruled out which leaves abduction
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 25, 2015, 08:58:47 AM
with the parents ruled out we are left with abduction or woke and wandered....for several reasons woke and wandered has been ruled out which leaves abduction
and yet the investigations are desperately trying to find something which doesn't exist.
and no, it doesn't leave abduction.
Now Tell me , when were the mccanns interviewed by SY ? 8)-)))
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on October 25, 2015, 09:02:47 AM
The buckets and spades were outside the front door that night and were removed on the 5th, they were of no importance but in retrospect it's surprising the apartment contents were allowed to be removed too
I wonder why they had buckets and spades? I thought they only went to the beach once and ate a quick ice cream and came back. Perhaps the creche asked parents to provide them when they took the children to the beach.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 25, 2015, 09:59:40 AM
I wonder why they had buckets and spades? I thought they only went to the beach once and ate a quick ice cream and came back. Perhaps the creche asked parents to provide them when they took the children to the beach.
What? Why wouldn't they have buckets and spades?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 25, 2015, 10:01:23 AM
I wonder why they had buckets and spades? I thought they only went to the beach once and ate a quick ice cream and came back. Perhaps the creche asked parents to provide them when they took the children to the beach.
You are talking with the benefit of hindsight GU. The McCanns would have no idea what the weather was going to be like in the coming week. In my experience buying buckets and spades is something done on day one of the holiday - in anticipation of visits to the beach.
I can't believe anyone would try to turn the children's 'buckets and spades' into yet another stick to beat the McCanns with. Do you agree?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 25, 2015, 10:47:54 AM
I wonder why they had buckets and spades? I thought they only went to the beach once and ate a quick ice cream and came back. Perhaps the creche asked parents to provide them when they took the children to the beach.
you wonder why children who were on the holiday at the sea side had buckets and spades? Seriously??
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: faithlilly on October 25, 2015, 11:05:06 AM
Indeed Eleanor. I mean what if their parents had found out when they got there that thee crčche couldn't look after their little ones all day ? Buckets and spaides would certainly have been needed then.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 25, 2015, 11:22:53 AM
Indeed Eleanor. I mean what if their parents had found out when they got there that thee crčche couldn't look after their little ones all day ? Buckets and spaides would certainly have been needed then.
Not lengths of rope and a tether instead? Surely those would have been more useful.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 25, 2015, 11:42:32 AM
You can hark on until the end of time about abduction tale.
It won't change a thing.
Indeed stephen, Not only that- SY following that line and having found nothing substantial, by that I mean produced a witness or confessor, we can readily assume that is it only one of many theories, and I am sure SY know this! They were only told to have a review, turned into an investigation with no autonomy or legal rights to enforce this.
PJ still hold cards..and have better local knowledge of the area and local criminal activity. SY should have gone in with a blank sheet/open mind. They may have got furher.IMO
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 25, 2015, 11:54:10 AM
BTW circled in this photo are the plastic buckets and spades being carried away from the apartment about 36 or so hours after the alarm. On the other hand could not be more radically different to MWT theory, which is: woke, wandered onto Rua Martins, abducted from there.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2015, 06:55:18 AM
Normally buckets and spades are bought on the first trip to the beach to build sand pies and castles with Mummy and Daddy. There didn't seem to be much time set aside for that on this holiday.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on October 26, 2015, 07:10:44 AM
Could we start the day On Topic, please.
This is not a request.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 29, 2015, 08:36:59 PM
It is a theory wworthwhile pursuing woke and wandered.
The parents behaved in a way that they thought this was the case.
Gerry noticed the door was more open that it was, became suspicious so entered the room and saw his children sleeping, did he think at that point one of the children woke up and went to look for them? Later he claims it may have been the abductor who opened the door.
Kate noticed the door was moved since her last time she moved it she looked in and couldnt see her daughter so she searched the flat thinking she had woke and wandered into her parents bed?
Seems strange they then deny this could happen- and an abductor is brought into the flat via a jemmied window.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 29, 2015, 09:27:23 PM
It is a theory wworthwhile pursuing woke and wandered.
The parents behaved in a way that they thought this was the case.
Gerry noticed the door was more open that it was, became suspicious so entered the room and saw his children sleeping, did he think at that point one of the children woke up and went to look for them? Later he claims it may have been the abductor who opened the door.
Kate noticed the door was moved since her last time she moved it she looked in and couldnt see her daughter so she searched the flat thinking she had woke and wandered into her parents bed?
Seems strange they then deny this could happen- and an abductor is brought into the flat via a jemmied window.
Now, that's magic. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2015, 10:47:22 PM
It is a theory wworthwhile pursuing woke and wandered.
The parents behaved in a way that they thought this was the case.
Gerry noticed the door was more open that it was, became suspicious so entered the room and saw his children sleeping, did he think at that point one of the children woke up and went to look for them? Later he claims it may have been the abductor who opened the door.
Kate noticed the door was moved since her last time she moved it she looked in and couldnt see her daughter so she searched the flat thinking she had woke and wandered into her parents bed?
Seems strange they then deny this could happen- and an abductor is brought into the flat via a jemmied window.
The first action to take when a child goes missing is to search the immediate area. Nine times out of ten the child will be found ... on the occasion the child is not there ...
What do you suggest the searchers should do ... sit around and wait for the child to wander back?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 29, 2015, 10:56:49 PM
The first action to take when a child goes missing is to search the immediate area. Nine times out of ten the child will be found ... on the occasion the child is not there ...
What do you suggest the searchers should do ... sit around and wait for the child to wander back?
I was not talking about the searchers.
I was talking about the parents claim of an abductor. They both noticed something wasn't right so they checked. Gerry claims they were all sleeping, kate claims she knew immediatly Maddie was abducted!?
which is it to be?
doors open /ajar Maddie on top of the bed/ Maddie snuggled under the covers. It was a warm night /cold night why were they so confused? were they drunk/under the influence of drugs why can't they recall with great accuracy their daughters last moment with them? Thoughougly strange!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2015, 11:15:20 PM
I was talking about the parents claim of an abductor. They both noticed something wasn't right so they checked. Gerry claims they were all sleeping, kate claims she knew immediatly Maddie was abducted!?
which is it to be?
doors open /ajar Maddie on top of the bed/ Maddie snuggled under the covers. It was a warm night /cold night why were they so confused? were they drunk/under the influence of drugs why can't they recall with great accuracy their daughters last moment with them? Thoughougly strange!
An entirely hypothetical question ~ as one can only surmise that if you have children your eyes have never left them for a second ~ ever.
If you walk into your child's bedroom and she is missing from her bed ... after a search, she is nowhere to be found on the premises ... but the window of the bedroom is open ... what would you think?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on October 29, 2015, 11:29:51 PM
An entirely hypothetical question ~ as one can only surmise that if you have children your eyes have never left them for a second ~ ever.
If you walk into your child's bedroom and she is missing from her bed ... after a search, she is nowhere to be found on the premises ... but the window of the bedroom is open ... what would you think?
If your child were to be missing
IF...... Is an interesting word
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: VIXTE on October 29, 2015, 11:39:11 PM
This theory is impossible as Madeleine wasnn't able to:
1. Open shutter 2. Open window 3. Leave doors ajar 4. Open patio curtain 5. Open patio doors 6. Close patio curtain 7. Close patio doors 8. Open gate doors 9. Close gate doors
Unless: Gerry left the front door open by mistake and she used the front door but then she would need to shut the front door after she exited and after opening the shutter and the window in her bedroom prior to it.. Mathematically speaking this would be a little too much of a coincidence.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 29, 2015, 11:53:21 PM
(snip) ... If you walk into your child's bedroom and she is missing from her bed ... after a search, she is nowhere to be found on the premises ... but the window of the bedroom is open ... what would you think?
I would search the premises again Brietta - this time very thoroughly.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on October 30, 2015, 12:01:37 AM
This theory is impossible as Madeleine wasnn't able to:
1. Open shutter 2. Open window 3. Leave doors ajar 4. Open patio curtain 5. Open patio doors 6. Close patio curtain 7. Close patio doors 8. Open gate doors 9. Close gate doors
Unless: Gerry left the front door open by mistake and she used the front door but then she would need to shut the front door after she exited and after opening the shutter and the window in her bedroom prior to it.. Mathematically speaking this would be a little too much of a coincidence.
Your bullet list is hearsay unfortunately, wheres the hard evidence?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 30, 2015, 12:03:40 AM
... you'd be amazed at how many cases there have been like that - parent finds child missing, searches the property, child not found, calls police, and search dogs and volunteers are scouring the streets and fields, and then an hour or two later eventually one person actually thinks to search the property properly and - voila!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2015, 12:04:51 AM
I would search the premises again Brietta - this time very thoroughly.
In Madeleine's case they were occupying a sparsely furnished holiday apartment with few places for a child to secrete herself or for a body to be hidden by a third party.
The fact that of the numerous people in the apartment, including GNR soldiers, none recorded the exact detail of exactly where and what was searched (top cupboards?) is inconvenient. It does not mean that the apartment wasn't thoroughly searched by those individuals following through on the initial desperate search when Madeleine was first missed by her mother.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2015, 12:10:28 AM
... you'd be amazed at how many cases there have been like that - parent finds child missing, searches the property, child not found, calls police, and search dogs and volunteers are scouring the streets and fields, and then an hour or two later eventually one person actually thinks to search the premises properly and - voila!
No I wouldn't.
Nor would I be amazed at how often children are abducted and found wandering nearby or at a distance ... sometimes dead and sometimes not found.
In Madeleine's case ... if your theory that she could be found in the house is viable ... where is she?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 30, 2015, 12:16:40 AM
In Madeleine's case they were occupying a sparsely furnished holiday apartment with few places for a child to secrete herself or for a body to be hidden by a third party.
The fact that of the numerous people in the apartment, including GNR soldiers, none recorded the exact detail of exactly where and what was searched (top cupboards?) is inconvenient. It does not mean that the apartment wasn't thoroughly searched by those individuals following through on the initial desperate search when Madeleine was first missed by her mother.
Fair enough Brietta, obviously the statements don't describe every single place each person searched inside the apartment, so we don't see anyone actually ever saying explicitly "I pulled the sofa out so I could look behind it" or "I didn't just glance in the cupboard I actually pulled stuff out and looked under and inside everything in there".
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2015, 12:26:48 AM
Fair enough Brietta, obviously the statements don't describe every single place each person searched inside the apartment, so we don't see anyone actually ever saying explicitly "I pulled the sofa out so I could look behind it" or "I didn't just glance in the cupboard I actually pulled stuff out and looked under and inside everything in there".
I think the crime scene photographs give the clue that the little clothing they had with them in the wardrobes had indeed been pulled about as you suggest. It was higgledy-piggledy suggesting it had been pulled out and the cupboard checked.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on October 30, 2015, 12:30:10 AM
I think the crime scene photographs give the clue that the little clothing they had with them in the wardrobes had indeed been pulled about as you suggest. It was higgledy-piggledy suggesting it had been pulled out and the cupboard checked.
Or they were just messy and on hols...which is ok for a family of five you wouldng expect anythng less...more of a normal explanation than a dawn raid by police chucking stuff everywhere lol
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 30, 2015, 12:32:36 AM
Nor would I be amazed at how often children are abducted and found wandering nearby or at a distance ... sometimes dead and sometimes not found.
In Madeleine's case ... if your theory that she could be found in the house is viable ... where is she?
Yes there are many cases where the child is found to have wandered and I'm not ruling that out. But I think the apartment was incompletely searched during that understandable panic. Of course even if that is true it doesn't mean the child was there, it just makes it a theoretically possible thing.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 30, 2015, 12:41:34 AM
I think the crime scene photographs give the clue that the little clothing they had with them in the wardrobes had indeed been pulled about as you suggest. It was higgledy-piggledy suggesting it had been pulled out and the cupboard checked.
I think the pile of clothes on that cupboard shelf was a pile of already-worn clothing awaiting wash Brietta and not neatly folded clean clothes but I will have to read the statements again.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 30, 2015, 12:47:39 AM
Or they were just messy and on hols...which is ok for a family of five you wouldng expect anythng less...more of a normal explanation than a dawn raid by police chucking stuff everywhere lol
Wasn't that pile a laundry pile Mercury according to statements? If so it would have started out as an untidy pile, so it being also an untidy pile in PJ photo does not prove it was disturbed by searchers at all.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2015, 12:54:01 AM
Or they were just messy and on hols...which is ok for a family of five you wouldng expect anythng less...more of a normal explanation than a dawn raid by police chucking stuff everywhere lol
I would not expect it of this family.
I think their clothes would have been folded when put away in the wardrobe, believe me it is the only way to deal with clothing for a family of five.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 30, 2015, 01:00:14 AM
I think it would be unusual for anyone to put dirty laundry into a wardrobe.
This apartment did not come with a laundry basket, and I doubt the family took a laundry basket with them from UK, therefore a wardrobe is the best place for a laundry pile IMO. Anyway GM says its a laundry pile.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 30, 2015, 07:00:37 AM
I think it would be unusual for anyone to put dirty laundry into a wardrobe.
Perhaps the cleaner did it so she could do her job? Apparently the group were pretty disorganised;
The only comment she remembered concerned the clutter in the apartments, mainly clothing which was left all around the place. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FATIMA_ESPADA.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2015, 09:31:44 AM
This apartment did not come with a laundry basket, and I doubt the family took a laundry basket with them from UK, therefore a wardrobe is the best place for a laundry pile IMO. Anyway GM says its a laundry pile.
You know this ... how?
Irrespective whether or not there was a laundry basket in the apartment ... who puts dirty clothing into a wardrobe? Dirty clothing smells. At the very least it would be put into carrier bags to be transported home ... also the apartment did have a washing machine which the occupants had been shown how to operate.
I should take what GM says about anything at face value??? ... there are too many inaccuracies emanating from that particular source for it to be considered sound.
Sorry about that mix-up.
I am not familiar with that statement from GM or as I would prefer Dr Gerry McCann ... do you have a cite?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 30, 2015, 09:51:15 AM
Irrespective whether or not there was a laundry basket in the apartment ... who puts dirty clothing into a wardrobe? Dirty clothing smells. At the very least it would be put into carrier bags to be transported home ... also the apartment did have a washing machine which the occupants had been shown how to operate.
I should take what GM says about anything at face value??? ... there are too many inaccuracies emanating from that particular source for it to be considered sound.
Are you experienced in criminal investigations ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on October 30, 2015, 09:57:54 AM
Woke and Wandered, if you please.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 30, 2015, 10:06:53 AM
Irrespective whether or not there was a laundry basket in the apartment ... who puts dirty clothing into a wardrobe? Dirty clothing smells. At the very least it would be put into carrier bags to be transported home ... also the apartment did have a washing machine which the occupants had been shown how to operate.
I should take what GM says about anything at face value??? ... there are too many inaccuracies emanating from that particular source for it to be considered sound.
GM?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2015, 10:18:30 AM
Thank you Slarti ... initials confuse me ... I much prefer full names to be used. I was of course referring to GA as an unreliable source ... I shall amend accordingly.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 30, 2015, 11:03:52 AM
Irrespective whether or not there was a laundry basket in the apartment ... who puts dirty clothing into a wardrobe? Dirty clothing smells. At the very least it would be put into carrier bags to be transported home ... also the apartment did have a washing machine which the occupants had been shown how to operate.
I should take what GM says about anything at face value??? ... there are too many inaccuracies emanating from that particular source for it to be considered sound.
Sorry about that mix-up.
I am not familiar with that statement from GM or as I would prefer Dr Gerry McCann ... do you have a cite?
It seems the McCanns put dirty clothes into a wardrobe;
When asked about the contents of the wardrobe in his room that can be seen in the photographs, he says that on top is a suitcase and below a pile of dirty clothes that he cannot make out. This wardrobe was opened to look for Madeleine. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 30, 2015, 08:56:04 PM
Experts MWT and O'C both published theories that the child woke and walked down the garden steps and downhill along Rua Martins. MWT said as far as Tapas reception. O'C said a bit further to supermarket car park. Reasonable theories IMO.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2015, 01:49:18 AM
Experts MWT and O'C both published theories that the child woke and walked down the garden steps and downhill along Rua Martins. MWT said as far as Tapas reception. O'C said a bit further to supermarket car park. Reasonable theories IMO.
It is a theory, but one without a modicum of proof to support it and the majority of investigators have moved on from there ... Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria being the latest.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 31, 2015, 07:15:57 AM
It is a theory, but one without a modicum of proof to support it and the majority of investigators have moved on from there ... Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria being the latest.
It seems to have escaped your attention, once again, that there is no proof of abduction either. forensically or otherwise.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on October 31, 2015, 09:22:54 PM
It is a theory, but one without a modicum of proof to support it and the majority of investigators have moved on from there ... Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria being the latest.
Obviously not proof, but an indication favouring MWT's and O'Cs theories, which by the way they they missed, is the fact that in the files is a document which states that one of the checkers found the child-gate at the top of the stairs, and I quote, "possibly open".
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2015, 11:57:01 PM
Obviously not proof, but an indication favouring MWT's and O'Cs theories, which by the way they they missed, is the fact that in the files is a document which states that one of the checkers found the child-gate at the top of the stairs, and I quote, "possibly open".
"Possibly open" really isn't good enough to explain what happened to Madeleine, which is why the majority of investigators with many years of policing between them who have commented on her case go for abduction rather than woke and wandered.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on November 01, 2015, 02:00:20 AM
"Possibly open" really isn't good enough to explain what happened to Madeleine, which is why the majority of investigators with many years of policing between them who have commented on her case go for abduction rather than woke and wandered.
But MWT's theory is an abduction theory Brietta.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2015, 06:52:12 AM
It is indeed, but the fact that the child was wandering when abducted won't do, Pegasus. That means that the vile predator didn't need to plan, watch, wait and pounce by entering the apartment. There was no need to violate the space of the family, the child was left in a situation so unsafe she could wander off and into danger at will. Of course there is no evidence that she didn't, except that provided by the group. The evidence provided by the parents? Flat denial that it could have happened, no real reasons why it didn't happen that way, apart from a few references to gates.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 01, 2015, 10:34:02 AM
"Possibly open" really isn't good enough to explain what happened to Madeleine, which is why the majority of investigators with many years of policing between them who have commented on her case go for abduction rather than woke and wandered.
Possibly abducted, via a window isn't really good enough to explain what happened to Madeleine either.
Majority of investigators? I think they all looked into that scenario, nothing has been set in stone so please do not say it as a given they have ruled in or out any other theory.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on November 01, 2015, 07:48:05 PM
So there was a perfect storm of crime in that tiny corner of Luz on that particular evening? Or is it like that normally?
Burglar frightens child who runs ... straight into the hands of a passing kidnapper.
No wonder it would have solved so many problems for the authorities if Madeleine's disappearance could have been safely pinned on her mother following precedent.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2015, 07:54:05 PM
So there was a perfect storm of crime in that tiny corner of Luz on that particular evening? Or is it like that normally?
Burglar frightens child who runs ... straight into the hands of a passing kidnapper.
No wonder it would have solved so many problems for the authorities if Madeleine's disappearance could have been safely pinned on her mother following precedent.
No burglar in MWT's theory.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 01, 2015, 08:03:02 PM
Depends what you mean by involvement. Open doors, absent parents, wandering child; whoops! He ignored the alleged open window/shutters too. Now who the heck opened them if Madeleine simply wandered off?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 01, 2015, 09:49:06 PM
Depends what you mean by involvement. Open doors, absent parents, wandering child; whoops! He ignored the alleged open window/shutters too. Now who the heck opened them if Madeleine simply wandered off?
then that points to maddie not wandering off
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on November 02, 2015, 12:09:34 PM
Yes as G-Unit and Davel have pointed out - MWT's published theory is that the child wandered onto the street and near tapas reception was abducted by an opportunistic abductor. No burglar. No parental involvement. No preplanning.
MWT has lots of police experience and correctly points out that opportunistic abduction is far more likely than pre-planned abduction. He gives the example of the evil RWhiting case - no preplanning - sees child alone on street - instant decision - opportunistic.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on November 02, 2015, 12:18:28 PM
Depends what you mean by involvement. Open doors, absent parents, wandering child; whoops! He ignored the alleged open window/shutters too. Now who the heck opened them if Madeleine simply wandered off?
Already posted on this thread is a report which claims incident at another resort a child whose parents were out to dinner climbed out a window and wandered.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on November 02, 2015, 12:58:39 PM
Yes as G-Unit and Davel have pointed out - MWT's published theory is that the child wandered onto the street and near tapas reception was abducted by an opportunistic abductor. No burglar. No parental involvement. No preplanning.
MWT has lots of police experience and correctly points out that opportunistic abduction is far more likely than pre-planned abduction. He gives the example of evil RWhiting - no preplanning - sees child alone on street - instant decision - opportunistic.
I was incorporating previous discussion into my post.
I am well aware of Mark Williams-Thomas theory
Also the fact that he had certainly had picked up enough to form a very succinct opinion of the initial investigation based on his own policing experience.
Wonder what he made of it all when the case was shelved and there was access to the files.
**Snip The detailed examination of a scene plays a crucial part in any major investigation and after a critical incident like this, all police officers know it is vital to preserve the crime scene, build the foundations, complete forensics and identify possible witnesses immediately.
But I saw no evidence of this being done and it was without any doubt, the worst-preserved crime scene I have ever witnessed.
This investigation is like no other I have seen before or will hopefully ever see again.
For the past year the Portuguese police have had two lines of inquiry: the first, that Gerry and Kate were involved in Madeleine's disappearance and the second, that a stranger abducted her.
However, they have focused steadfastly on their first line of enquiry. http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2015, 03:42:03 PM
I was incorporating previous discussion into my post.
I am well aware of Mark Williams-Thomas theory
Also the fact that he had certainly had picked up enough to form a very succinct opinion of the initial investigation based on his own policing experience.
Wonder what he made of it all when the case was shelved and there was access to the files.
**Snip The detailed examination of a scene plays a crucial part in any major investigation and after a critical incident like this, all police officers know it is vital to preserve the crime scene, build the foundations, complete forensics and identify possible witnesses immediately.
But I saw no evidence of this being done and it was without any doubt, the worst-preserved crime scene I have ever witnessed.
This investigation is like no other I have seen before or will hopefully ever see again.
For the past year the Portuguese police have had two lines of inquiry: the first, that Gerry and Kate were involved in Madeleine's disappearance and the second, that a stranger abducted her.
However, they have focused steadfastly on their first line of enquiry. http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
It seems to me that MWT relies a lot on assumptions. He absolutely rules out parental involvement, despite the statistics. He never gives a reason for ruling them out, he just does it, even though he accepts they had the opportunity;
So one or more of the parents did have the opportunity http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
In 2006-7 55 children were killed in the UK, 24 of them by their parents. Two thirds of them were under 5 years of age. Stranger abductions and murder have remained static at between 5-7 a year since 1970. http://williams-thomas.co.uk/sites/default/files/Review%20of%20Madeleiene%20McCann%20Investigation.pdf
So we can assume that of the 55 killed in the above year 7 at the most were abducted and killed by strangers, 24 were killed by parents and 24 by other people known to the child.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 02, 2015, 05:55:20 PM
It seems to me that MWT relies a lot on assumptions. He absolutely rules out parental involvement, despite the statistics. He never gives a reason for ruling them out, he just does it, even though he accepts they had the opportunity;
So one or more of the parents did have the opportunity http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
In 2006-7 55 children were killed in the UK, 24 of them by their parents. Two thirds of them were under 5 years of age. Stranger abductions and murder have remained static at between 5-7 a year since 1970. http://williams-thomas.co.uk/sites/default/files/Review%20of%20Madeleiene%20McCann%20Investigation.pdf
So we can assume that of the 55 killed in the above year 7 at the most were abducted and killed by strangers, 24 were killed by parents and 24 by other people known to the child.
why should statistics come into play when reviewing the evidence of any one particular case?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 02, 2015, 06:49:54 PM
It seems to me that MWT relies a lot on assumptions. He absolutely rules out parental involvement, despite the statistics. He never gives a reason for ruling them out, he just does it, even though he accepts they had the opportunity;
So one or more of the parents did have the opportunity http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
In 2006-7 55 children were killed in the UK, 24 of them by their parents. Two thirds of them were under 5 years of age. Stranger abductions and murder have remained static at between 5-7 a year since 1970. http://williams-thomas.co.uk/sites/default/files/Review%20of%20Madeleiene%20McCann%20Investigation.pdf
So we can assume that of the 55 killed in the above year 7 at the most were abducted and killed by strangers, 24 were killed by parents and 24 by other people known to the child.
you are quoting figures for chidren killed/murdered. No one has suggested maddie was murdered by her parents. If you are going to quote statistics you should learn to understand them
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on November 02, 2015, 07:21:34 PM
It seems to me that MWT relies a lot on assumptions. He absolutely rules out parental involvement, despite the statistics. He never gives a reason for ruling them out, he just does it, even though he accepts they had the opportunity;
So one or more of the parents did have the opportunity http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
In 2006-7 55 children were killed in the UK, 24 of them by their parents. Two thirds of them were under 5 years of age. Stranger abductions and murder have remained static at between 5-7 a year since 1970. http://williams-thomas.co.uk/sites/default/files/Review%20of%20Madeleiene%20McCann%20Investigation.pdf
So we can assume that of the 55 killed in the above year 7 at the most were abducted and killed by strangers, 24 were killed by parents and 24 by other people known to the child.
Less than 50% probability Madeleine was killed by her parents, if she is even dead. Perhaps that should be your starting point.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2015, 07:33:08 PM
why should statistics come into play when reviewing the evidence of any one particular case?
It's necessary to read the whole of his review, really. He is demonstrating why the PJ were right to investigate parental involvement, but they should have investigated them at the beginning. (He assumes they would have been ruled out, but he's not really clear why he thinks that)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 02, 2015, 07:42:18 PM
It's necessary to read the whole of his review, really. He is demonstrating why the PJ were right to investigate parental involvement, but they should have investigated them at the beginning. (He assumes they would have been ruled out, but he's not really clear why he thinks that)
we all understand the statistics and that parents should always be investigated first...but these statistics are referring to children harmed deliberately by parents....I could go on and further explain the statistics to you but it is pointless
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 02, 2015, 07:52:16 PM
we all understand the statistics and that parents should always be investigated first...but these statistics are referring to children harmed deliberately by parents....I could go on and further explain the statistics to you but it is pointless
In a case of which the cause is unknown those are the statistics to use to direct the priorities for investigation.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 02, 2015, 08:17:10 PM
you are quoting figures for chidren killed/murdered. No one has suggested maddie was murdered by her parents. If you are going to quote statistics you should learn to understand them
Tell MWT, not me. They are his quoted reason why the parents should always be investigated when a child disappears.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 02, 2015, 08:51:56 PM
I think the checkers quoted one minute to reach the gate, but they were adults with a purpose. A three year old wakes, calls out for parents a few times then gets up to see if she can find anyone. She visits all the other rooms, slowly because she's not supposed to get out of bed. She discovers she's alone. She goes to the patio window next to look out and notices it's not quite closed. She thinks about this, then exits onto the balcony. She can hear people at the Tapas perhaps. She pauses to think again. She sees that the child gate is open, or she decides to open it. down the steps, open the bottom gate and peer out. More thinking. Children don't have the purposeful movements of adults. If she decides Mummy and Daddy are at the Tapas she might then run for it.
At least five minutes from leaving her bed, imo.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on November 02, 2015, 09:05:48 PM
I think the checkers quoted one minute to reach the gate, but they were adults with a purpose. A three year old wakes, calls out for parents a few times then gets up to see if she can find anyone. She visits all the other rooms, slowly because she's not supposed to get out of bed. She discovers she's alone. She goes to the patio window next to look out and notices it's not quite closed. She thinks about this, then exits onto the balcony. She can hear people at the Tapas perhaps. She pauses to think again. She sees that the child gate is open, or she decides to open it. down the steps, open the bottom gate and peer out. More thinking. Children don't have the purposeful movements of adults. If she decides Mummy and Daddy are at the Tapas she might then run for it.
At least five minutes from leaving her bed, imo.
Yes but if scared by someone opening window from outside, and if knew where parents were and headed straight there, it would barefoot take a minute or less to get to near tapas reception IMO.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 02, 2015, 09:16:17 PM
then you think wrong....in the early days there was a statement from an expert in the field who said the mccanns did not fit the profile...do you think they may have murdered maddie
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2015, 09:24:23 PM
look at children harmed by parents... I can't be bothered to look up the statisitics now
non biological parents history of hard drug abuse low socio economic group low intelligence history of abuse
then of course there would be a conspiracy by the tapas to cover up a murder
You misunderstand. In cases of child disappearance, particularly if the child is under 5 years of age the parents and others close to the child must be investigated and eliminated. That's police best practice. The police are not judges or juries, their job is not to decide whether someone is innocent or guilty, they work to procedures. As an ex policeman MWT would know that. The McCanns accepted that principle also, they knew they had to be investigated.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 02, 2015, 09:25:14 PM
then you think wrong....in the early days there was a statement from an expert in the field who said the mccanns did not fit the profile...do you think they may have murdered maddie
Cite?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 02, 2015, 09:27:50 PM
the last time..yesterday I provided a cite I was accused of cherrypicking....if you look at every filicide tyoub will see certain profiles...the mccanns do not fit....I certainly cannot be bothered to defend the mccanns against an accusation of murder...only a fool would think that possible
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 02, 2015, 09:30:33 PM
the last time..yesterday I provided a cite I was accused of cherrypicking....if you look at every filicide tyoub will see certain profiles...the mccanns do not fit....I certainly cannot be bothered to defend the mccanns against an accusation of murder...only a fool would think that possible
Who is accusing them of murder?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2015, 09:31:42 PM
Yes but if scared by someone opening window from outside, and if knew where parents were and headed straight there, it would barefoot take a minute or less to get to near tapas reception IMO.
I find it very difficult to believe that they told Madeleine where they were. As someone said, she wouldn't have gone to sleep if she knew they were leaving her, particularly after wondering where they were the last time she and her brother cried.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 02, 2015, 09:32:05 PM
the last time..yesterday I provided a cite I was accused of cherrypicking....if you look at every filicide tyoub will see certain profiles...the mccanns do not fit....I certainly cannot be bothered to defend the mccanns against an accusation of murder...only a fool would think that possible
If you can't be bothered to do the research how can you justify telling other people to do it? It doesn't matter what 'experts' say, the statistics tell us that most children under 5 who disappear have been harmed. If they have, the most likely suspects are the parents, other family members or friends. Consequently that's the police starting point. I'm sure they have thoughts about the parents and others but you can't judge a book by it's cover and it's not their job to do so. Imagine what sort of trouble they'd be in if they said they didn't bother investigating the parents because they seemed too nice. Procedure is the answer, tick the boxes.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 02, 2015, 09:42:35 PM
If you can't be bothered to do the research how can you justify telling other people to do it? It doesn't matter what 'experts' say, the statistics tell us that most children under 5 who disappear have been harmed. If they have, the most likely suspects are the parents, other family members or friends. Consequently that's the police starting point. I'm sure they have thoughts about the parents and others but you can't judge a book by it's cover and it's not their job to do so. Imagine what sort of trouble they'd be in if they said they didn't bother investigating the parents because they seemed too nice. Procedure is the answer, tick the boxes.
if you have read the previous posts you will see that I have said the PJ should have looked at the parents for this reason...but the mccanns do not fit the statistical model for parents who harm their children. The figures introduced by MW refer to murder and serious injury
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2015, 10:07:10 PM
so who introduced the figures for children harmed by parents and what is their relevance to this case
I did. Go and read MWT's report in full then you may, just may, understand the relevance cos you sure ain't listening to anyone else. I did my research, I recommended a full reading and I provided a link. Even the can't be bothered can find it.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 02, 2015, 10:11:14 PM
I did. Go and read MWT's report in full then you may, just may, understand the relevance cos you sure ain't listening to anyone else. I did my research, I recommended a full reading and I provided a link. Even the can't be bothered can find it.
Because there is no suggestion the McCanns harmed maddie Those figures have been quoted to support the McCanns guilt They dont
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: carlymichelle on November 02, 2015, 10:20:10 PM
I find it very difficult to believe that they told Madeleine where they were. As someone said, she wouldn't have gone to sleep if she knew they were leaving her, particularly after wondering where they were the last time she and her brother cried.
I don't know - it is certainly a question that could have been asked in the early PJ interviews, and in the rogs, of all 9 group members - to ask them all the group the essential question - Was the missing child told which restaurant the parents were at?
Let's hope Ms Wall has asked that question of all 9 in the more recent interviews in UK.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on November 03, 2015, 01:23:49 AM
I don't know - it is certainly a question that could have been asked in the early PJ interviews, and in the rogs, of all 9 group members - to ask them all the group the essential question - Was the missing child told which restaurant the parents were at?
Let's hope Ms Wall has asked that question of all 9 in the more recent interviews in UK.
Doesnt the fact that the friends of KM were told by her the door was left open so Madeleine could go find them if she woke up suggest they did tell her where they would be? or am I remembering the rogatory interview(s) wrong.. F PAYNE She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh'.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on November 03, 2015, 01:24:18 AM
BTW that breakfast question on the 3rd (this is to test if people can actually think of things from the child's point of view) - what exactly was the answer given? - or wasn't it answered? - is an answer actually ever mentioned anywhere in the statements or press interviews?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on November 03, 2015, 01:29:16 AM
Doesnt the fact that the friends of KM were told by her the door was left open so Madeleine could go find them if she woke up suggest they did tell her where they would be? or am I remembering the rogatory interview(s) wrong..
Yes it's quite possible the father and/or mother told the child where they would be Mercury.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on November 03, 2015, 01:31:35 AM
Excellent The quoted statistics do not suggest the McCanns were involved in maddies disappearance
I thought they were the parents so what are you going on about? Both the Portuguese and British thought so in 2007. What was Ricardo Paiva reported to have said in court?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on November 03, 2015, 01:36:38 AM
BTW that breakfast question on the 3rd (this is to test if people can actually think of things from the child's point of view) - what exactly was the answer given? - or wasn't it answered? - is an answer actually ever mentioned anywhere in the statements or press interviews?
Thats a negative, apart from hndsight thoughts and questions, like what dyou mean? when you were in the bath or being put to bed? = gerry mccann (what a stupid comment)
What dyou mean = kate mccann imagining a dry run by an abductor while they were out, again in hindsight
Neither parents took it seriously so.....?? they didnt take it seriously at the time, for whatever reason, make of it what you will The most OBVIOUS reason is that the parents were not there when the kids woke and cried, its not rocket science......the very fact that both of them did not acknowledge that possibility whilst admitting to being away at a big distance and out of sound and hearing fir at least half hour intervals is laughable....at best
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on November 03, 2015, 01:48:16 AM
Yes possible,, but neither has ever ever mentioned it, it was after all a much larger deal than telling of other really small insignificant details!
Everyone here has read/heard about the brekkie question - but did anyone else here think to ask the obvious - "Well ok that was the question, that's half of it, so what was the reply?" (Mods: this is on topic because this is a woke + wandered theory so it is important to know whether the child knew a specific restaurant to go to, or had no idea)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on November 03, 2015, 01:51:24 AM
Everyone here has read/heard about the brekkie question - but did anyone else here think to ask the obvious - "Well ok that was the question, that's half of it, so what was the reply?"
If there was a reoly it hasnt been told to us...just thoughts on the question!
But of course then Madeleine "just dropped it" so wasnt a big deal for any of them seemingly
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on November 03, 2015, 01:58:46 AM
No way do I accept "just dropped it" or anything like that as sufficient reason for the apparent absence of a reply Mercury.
Well according to KM she asked Madeleine, "what do you mean?" "When was this" and she "just dropped it"
I wont make any comment about her comment that had Madeleine not been abducted the thought of that convo have passed through her head again, but we know it did....through police statements....cough...let the apologisers explain even so! Im sure theres an innocent explanation
extras
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on November 03, 2015, 02:24:52 AM
Well according to KM she asked Madeleine, "what do you mean?" "When was this" and she "just dropped it" (snip) ... video ... (snip) I wont make any comment about her comment that had Madeleine not been abducted the thought of that convo have passed through her head again, but we know it did....through police statements....cough...let the apologisers explain even so! Im sure theres an innocent explanation
Fact is Merc there was a question, but then apparently no answer. If it had been answered straight away "in tapas restaurant then afterwards in tapas bar" then it couldn't have been dropped. It was obvious the question referred to Weds night isn't it?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on November 03, 2015, 02:31:53 AM
Fact is Merc there was a question, but then apparently no answer. If it had been answered straight away "in tapas restaurant then afterwards in tapas bar" then it couldn't have been dropped. It was obvious the question referred to Weds night isn't it?
I have no idea what image managers told them to say or not say, (quite nauseating that they had any anyway) how can one tell the difference? Thats why they are fair game...you would expect honest answers to questions FULL STOP and PERIOD and UNEQUIVOCABLY as this is not supposed to be a soap opera!!
Ps not sure what point youre making? Madeleine knew where her parents were or not, her parents didnt tell her? What? Need to go now see you tomorrow
As to when Madeleine woke up crying, you say Wednesday, others say Tuesday, no one has a fool proof argument, does it matter though? No
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on November 03, 2015, 02:41:51 AM
I have no idea what image managers told them to say or not say, (quite nauseating that they had any anyway) how can one tell the difference? Thats why they are fair game...you would expect honest answers to questions FULL STOP and PERIOD and UNEQUIVOCABLY as this is not supposed to be a soap opera!!
As to when Madeleine woke up crying, you say Wednesday, others say Tuesday, no one has a fool proof argument, does it matter though? No
It was very obvious the question Thu AM was about Weds night IMO Mercury. And (very hypothetically of course) if someone rehearses an innocent witness how to phrase things then that's the trainer to ask not the witness. (Mods: on topic because MWT theory more likely if knew where to wander to)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on November 05, 2015, 08:12:50 AM
It was very obvious the question Thu AM was about Weds night IMO Mercury.
And (very hypothetically of course) if someone rehearses an innocent witness how to phrase things then that's the trainer to ask not the witness. (Mods: on topic because MWT theory more likely if knew where to wander to)
If Madeleine and Sean both cried on Wed night then surely Rachel Odlfield who was next door for the entire evening would have heard them?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 05, 2015, 08:26:17 AM
No you are mistaken. Rachel stayed in on WED next door and heard nowt!
"Grace would wake up sort of six o'clock most mornings and we'd always have to put her in the, in the shower or in the bath first thing, and Gerry and Kate would always hear that and so you know, most of the comments first thing in the morning would be like, oh so Grace was up early again, she'd be invariably screaming her head off, so'. " (RO)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on November 05, 2015, 11:28:16 AM
Let me see now ... Mrs Fenn gave a statement to the officers who were doing door to door checks in the building on the morning of the 4th asking her for details of anything of interest or unusual she may have noticed on the night before when the little girl one flight down went missing?
Of course she did not. Her statement was given on the 20th of August 2007. Hmmm.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 05, 2015, 11:41:11 AM
Let me see now ... Mrs Fenn gave a statement to the officers who were doing door to door checks in the building on the morning of the 4th asking her for details of anything of interest or unusual she may have noticed on the night before when the little girl one flight down went missing?
Of course she did not. Her statement was given on the 20th of August 2007. Hmmm.
So you are implying Mrs. Fenn lied ?
Don't think so.
and children crying is hardly unusual, IS IT ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 05, 2015, 11:46:21 AM
I have said the police neglected to speak to Mrs Fenn ... who could have been a material witness for all they knew ... on the morning of the 4th of May.
I said Mrs Fenn gave no statement until the 20th of August.
How you can twist that to imply that I am accusing Mrs Fenn of any impropriety whatsoever is a bit of a mystery to me ... no doubt you will have an explanation?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on November 05, 2015, 12:05:49 PM
Mrs Fenn's niece is a case in point ... she was confused about the dates she had given in her original statement until careful questioning enabled her to realise it.
Four months after, was never an appropriate time to question a person who might have been a material witness in the case.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 05, 2015, 12:07:06 PM
I have said the police neglected to speak to Mrs Fenn ... who could have been a material witness for all they knew ... on the morning of the 4th of May.
I said Mrs Fenn gave no statement until the 20th of August.
How you can twist that to imply that I am accusing Mrs Fenn of any impropriety whatsoever is a bit of a mystery to me ... no doubt you will have an explanation?
Then be more careful in what you imply. 8)--))
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on November 05, 2015, 12:20:40 PM
You were the one making the allegation without anything of substance whatsoever to support it. I have noticed it is a particular posting technique used frequently by you when you are unable to refute an argument. It is tiresome in its transparency.
Mrs Fenn might possibly have witnessed Madeleine's exit from the apartment had she woke and wandered, she might have noticed someone in conversation with her. The point is ... she was not asked when it really mattered.
Taking a statement from her four months after the event was of absolutely no value whatsoever and merely serves to highlight in general the massive shortcomings in the Amaral investigation.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 05, 2015, 12:21:20 PM
It has been shown that it is possible to lift the shutter from outside.
Heriberto Janosch González has put forward the theory that Madeleine could have approached the window and has demonstrated that she could easily have been lifted out without the apartment being entered.
I don't think Madeleine could have exited through the front door without being taken through it by someone, and no-one has put forward a theory to explain how she could have gone that way on her own.
She could also have walked out of the apartment.
Basically, there is no evidence of how she disappeared.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 05, 2015, 12:31:45 PM
You were the one making the allegation without anything of substance whatsoever to support it. I have noticed it is a particular posting technique used frequently by you when you are unable to refute an argument. It is tiresome in its transparency.
Mrs Fenn might possibly have witnessed Madeleine's exit from the apartment had she woke and wandered, she might have noticed someone in conversation with her. The point is ... she was not asked when it really mattered.
Taking a statement from her four months after the event was of absolutely no value whatsoever and merely serves to highlight in general the massive shortcomings in the Amaral investigation.
I take your posts with barely a pinch of salt.
No matter how much you may protest, you are on here mere to defend the mccann's and push forward the abduction mantra proaganda.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on November 05, 2015, 12:51:40 PM
Basically, there is no evidence of how she disappeared.
How on earth can any evidence be found if no one looks for it? Not even bothering to ask people resident in the same building if they had any sight of anything surely demonstrates negligence in the extreme.
Then if the Senior investigator has formulated his theory before even visiting the crime scene and never deviates from it ~ how can evidence relating to a perpetrator be expected to be found?
23 February 2009 Exclusive Interview to the Former PJ Coordinator Gonçalo Amaral
A collaborative interview by Duarte Levy, Joana Morais, Astro and Mercedes
**Snip DL: At which point in time did you consider the McCanns to be suspects?
GA: Let’s see: In terms of suspicion, from the very first hour. The procedures in this type of case are to find out who the persons are, who the missing person is, in this case the missing child, and to find out all the antecedents. And now the first question that is asked from the English authorities, from the British police forces, is that one. Who were the parents, that group of people, and who was the child, was she the target of abuse, was she not. Then, it evolves, it’s a formal procedure, its general for all cases and when the first statements are made, that’s the day when we start to suspect that something is wrong. Things evolved, they were suspects until we reached the work of the English dogs and then the suspicions ultimately became indicia [evidence].
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 05, 2015, 12:58:54 PM
How on earth can any evidence be found if no one looks for it? Not even bothering to ask people resident in the same building if they had any sight of anything surely demonstrates negligence in the extreme.
Then if the Senior investigator has formulated his theory before even visiting the crime scene and never deviates from it ~ how can evidence relating to a perpetrator be expected to be found?
23 February 2009 Exclusive Interview to the Former PJ Coordinator Gonçalo Amaral
A collaborative interview by Duarte Levy, Joana Morais, Astro and Mercedes
**Snip DL: At which point in time did you consider the McCanns to be suspects?
GA: Let’s see: In terms of suspicion, from the very first hour. The procedures in this type of case are to find out who the persons are, who the missing person is, in this case the missing child, and to find out all the antecedents. And now the first question that is asked from the English authorities, from the British police forces, is that one. Who were the parents, that group of people, and who was the child, was she the target of abuse, was she not. Then, it evolves, it’s a formal procedure, its general for all cases and when the first statements are made, that’s the day when we start to suspect that something is wrong. Things evolved, they were suspects until we reached the work of the English dogs and then the suspicions ultimately became indicia [evidence].
That view would appear not to be supported by the archiving process: snip>>>> "From the documentation, you will observe that during the investigation various possibilities were contemplated. As such, consider: 1. abduction, for sexual exploration or other (e.g., later adoption, child trafficking, organ trafficking), without homicide; 2. abduction, followed by homicide with (or without) hiding of the corpse; 3. accidental death, with later hiding of the corpse;" >>>> snip
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 05, 2015, 01:16:51 PM
How on earth can any evidence be found if no one looks for it? Not even bothering to ask people resident in the same building if they had any sight of anything surely demonstrates negligence in the extreme.
Then if the Senior investigator has formulated his theory before even visiting the crime scene and never deviates from it ~ how can evidence relating to a perpetrator be expected to be found?
23 February 2009 Exclusive Interview to the Former PJ Coordinator Gonçalo Amaral
A collaborative interview by Duarte Levy, Joana Morais, Astro and Mercedes
**Snip DL: At which point in time did you consider the McCanns to be suspects?
GA: Let’s see: In terms of suspicion, from the very first hour. The procedures in this type of case are to find out who the persons are, who the missing person is, in this case the missing child, and to find out all the antecedents. And now the first question that is asked from the English authorities, from the British police forces, is that one. Who were the parents, that group of people, and who was the child, was she the target of abuse, was she not. Then, it evolves, it’s a formal procedure, its general for all cases and when the first statements are made, that’s the day when we start to suspect that something is wrong. Things evolved, they were suspects until we reached the work of the English dogs and then the suspicions ultimately became indicia [evidence].
Madeleine was searched from the start, with the assumption she was abducted.
Local police, holidaymakers, and residents gave up their time in a fruitless search for Madeleine, in the hours, days and weeks after she disappeared.
The focus on the patents came from UK police advising the PJ to investigate the parents, as would be standard procedure in the UK.
As to 'missing' evidence, that also applies by any logic to all the possible scenarios.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on November 05, 2015, 01:42:09 PM
That view would appear not to be supported by the archiving process: snip>>>> "From the documentation, you will observe that during the investigation various possibilities were contemplated. As such, consider: 1. abduction, for sexual exploration or other (e.g., later adoption, child trafficking, organ trafficking), without homicide; 2. abduction, followed by homicide with (or without) hiding of the corpse; 3. accidental death, with later hiding of the corpse;" >>>> snip
I quoted from an interview given by the man himself ... I believe he is on record as making similar statements elsewhere ... and he was the man to know his own line of thinking n'est-ce pas?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on November 05, 2015, 01:45:35 PM
I quoted from an interview given by the man himself ... I believe he is on record as making similar statements elsewhere ... and he was the man to know his own line of thinking n'est-ce pas?
Any good detective would have suspicions about them after hearing their unbelievable story and crying abduction. The first GNR officers on the scene thought they were acting.
"He found the parents to be nervous and anxious, he did not see any tears from either of them although they produced noises identical to crying. He did not feel that this was an abduction, although this was the line indicated by the father." José María Batista Roque
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 05, 2015, 03:01:10 PM
I quoted from an interview given by the man himself ... I believe he is on record as making similar statements elsewhere ... and he was the man to know his own line of thinking n'est-ce pas?
OK but the archiving process does not support that view nor do the files. Which do you want to believe? The official judicial report or comments made by a former "disgraced" police officer?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on November 05, 2015, 04:26:31 PM
Any good detective would have suspicions about them after hearing their unbelievable story and crying abduction. The first GNR officers on the scene thought they were acting.
"He found the parents to be nervous and anxious, he did not see any tears from either of them although they produced noises identical to crying. He did not feel that this was an abduction, although this was the line indicated by the father." José María Batista Roque
Isn't José María Batista Roque not the GNR who had mystery payments made into bank accounts opened in his name?
Funny he should also paint a picture which differs entirely from statements made by so many other witnesses concerning Madeleine's parents' distress.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on November 05, 2015, 04:38:46 PM
MWT is rather scathing about the missing evidence and the manner of it ... do read up on it.
MWT has quite a lot to say, but most of it is assumptions. He criticises the PJ investigation and assumptions, but his are no better.
He says in his review that he examined the files, but not that well, I suggest. He says no-one saw Madeleine after she was collected from high tea, ignoring David Payne's statement.
He tries to construct a definitive timeline but can't because of inconsistencies in witness statements, mostly Gerlad McCann's. He puts this down to confusion and also to discussion with each other, although he admits other interpretations are possible.
His woke and wandered theory is based on a) an abductor wouldn't leave Madeleine's toys neatly arranged on her pillow b) an abductor would have been more likely to take a twin who would resist less.
He reiterates that he doesn't think the McCanns harmed their daughter or had anything to do with her disappearance, but he gives no reason for his conclusion.
Once again he offers no opinion at all on the opened window and shutters. http://williams-thomas.co.uk/sites/default/files/Review%20of%20Madeleiene%20McCann%20Investigation.pdf
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 05, 2015, 04:47:58 PM
Isn't José María Batista Roque not the GNR who had mystery payments made into bank accounts opened in his name?
Funny he should also paint a picture which differs entirely from statements made by so many other witnesses concerning Madeleine's parents' distress.
The double negative not withstanding are you not the one who has been peddling that bill of goods for a couple of days? Give us the full SP with all the appropriate links then we can form an opinion.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on November 05, 2015, 04:49:02 PM
It is quite evident, as I have predicted all along, SY don't have a clue. The Portuguese don't have a clue.
How about you Brietta ?
Your 'discussion' skills leave quite a bit to be desired. Asking questions the answers to which you are aware couldn't possibly be known is a particularly duplicitous method used by you ad nauseam.
Perhaps you should allow the members in on whatever superior knowledge you possess which allows you to pontificate on exactly what it is SY and the PJ have entrusted only to you ... particularly as we have been told they are still following active lines of inquiry.
They certainly have gone beyond the woke and wandered theory ... but if you are still content to base your rather negative opinion on unattributed leaks ... that is a matter entirely for you.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 05, 2015, 05:14:14 PM
Your 'discussion' skills leave quite a bit to be desired. Asking questions the answers to which you are aware couldn't possibly be known is a particularly duplicitous method used by you ad nauseam.
Perhaps you should allow the members in on whatever superior knowledge you possess which allows you to pontificate on exactly what it is SY and the PJ have entrusted only to you ... particularly as we have been told they are still following active lines of inquiry.
They certainly have gone beyond the woke and wandered theory ... but if you are still content to base your rather negative opinion on unattributed leaks ... that is a matter entirely for you.
My discussion skills ?
You need to take a look in the mirror and immerse yourself in the real world.
The investigation as regards abduction has revealed nothing for rather obvious reasons.
It is a pity you are unable to comprehend that .
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on November 05, 2015, 07:04:41 PM
It was very obvious the question Thu AM was about Weds night IMO Mercury. And (very hypothetically of course) if someone rehearses an innocent witness how to phrase things then that's the trainer to ask not the witness. (Mods: on topic because MWT theory more likely if knew where to wander to)
There seems to be no evidence for this though and two witness statements (PM and RO) actually say the opposite.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 05, 2015, 07:11:07 PM
MWT has quite a lot to say, but most of it is assumptions. He criticises the PJ investigation and assumptions, but his are no better.
He says in his review that he examined the files, but not that well, I suggest. He says no-one saw Madeleine after she was collected from high tea, ignoring David Payne's statement.
He tries to construct a definitive timeline but can't because of inconsistencies in witness statements, mostly Gerlad McCann's. He puts this down to confusion and also to discussion with each other, although he admits other interpretations are possible.
His woke and wandered theory is based on a) an abductor wouldn't leave Madeleine's toys neatly arranged on her pillow b) an abductor would have been more likely to take a twin who would resist less.
He reiterates that he doesn't think the McCanns harmed their daughter or had anything to do with her disappearance, but he gives no reason for his conclusion.
Once again he offers no opinion at all on the opened window and shutters. http://williams-thomas.co.uk/sites/default/files/Review%20of%20Madeleiene%20McCann%20Investigation.pdf
This report is extremely supportive of the McCanns...no surprise there....another professional with access to all the evidence who considers the mccanns innocent. He is particularly critical of the validity of the dog's alerts...
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 05, 2015, 07:16:52 PM
This report is extremely supportive of the McCanns...no surprise there....another professional with access to all the evidence who considers the mccanns innocent. He is particularly critical of the validity of the dog's alerts...
So he is an expert, just like gerry mccann as regards the use and deployment of dogs ?
&%+((Ł &%&Ł(+ &%&Ł(+ &%&Ł(+
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 05, 2015, 07:24:00 PM
I think he was a policeman for a while; DC? Then he took an MA in criminology. Then he set up his own company and became an expert.
He was a constable / FLO for ten years then left He did a degree in criminoloy (as did Pat Brown but of course she s crazy so dengrated all the time!) He is an investigative journalist these days and has had a couple of successes He concentrates on child sex abuse He set up a company advising on child protection...have no idea on that detail He is a talking head with some experience and knowledge in the area but no expert on police dogs therefore any comments made on that front can safely be taken wth a pinch of salt I skimmed through his report, it wasnt bad but it was a bit slapdash in places (as if he had skimmed through the police files) and of course he has ommitted certain things! But as a "journalist" I find hm not too bad compared to the other pantomime figures
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on November 05, 2015, 09:11:52 PM
Why was now in PDL At whose request There is no doubt he was extremely supportive of the McCanns and critical of the dog's alerts
They wouldn't talk to him though
No review on this subject can ever hope to be definitive, and so, for example, while the author has informally discussed the case with the McCann’s former press spokesman Clarence Mitchell, he has not been interviewed formally, nor indeed have Kate or Gerry McCann – despite a request to do so. http://williams-thomas.co.uk/sites/default/files/Review%20of%20Madeleiene%20McCann%20Investigation.pdf
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 05, 2015, 09:25:02 PM
No review on this subject can ever hope to be definitive, and so, for example, while the author has informally discussed the case with the McCann’s former press spokesman Clarence Mitchell, he has not been interviewed formally, nor indeed have Kate or Gerry McCann – despite a request to do so. http://williams-thomas.co.uk/sites/default/files/Review%20of%20Madeleiene%20McCann%20Investigation.pdf
That doesn't surprise me in the slightest...absolutely the correct thing to do ...no one criticised Grime on here when he refused to talk about the case. This is an ongoing investigation
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 05, 2015, 09:28:02 PM
He was a constable / FLO for ten years then left He did a degree in criminoloy (as did Pat Brown but of course she s crazy so dengrated all the time!) He is an investigative journalist these days and has had a couple of successes He concentrates on child sex abuse He set up a company advising on child protection...have no idea on that detail He is a talking head with some experience and knowledge in the area but no expert on police dogs therefore any comments made on that front can safely be taken wth a pinch of salt I skimmed through his report, it wasnt bad but it was a bit slapdash in places (as if he had skimmed through the police files) and of course he has ommitted certain things! But as a "journalist" I find hm not too bad compared to the other pantomime figures
you would have understood it better had you read it properly. As far as his views re the dogs..." should be taken with a pinch of salt"...yet posters on here feel that their view re the dogs is quite valid. MWT is spot on re the dogs
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 05, 2015, 09:29:10 PM
you would have understood it better had you read it properly. As far as his views re the dogs..." should be taken with a pinch of salt"...yet posters on here feel that their view re the dogs is quite valid. MWT is spot on re the dogs
In your opinion, which is simply irrelevant.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on November 05, 2015, 09:55:31 PM
That doesn't surprise me in the slightest...absolutely the correct thing to do ...no one criticised Grime on here when he refused to talk about the case. This is an ongoing investigation
A the time MWT asked to interview the McCanns no authorities were investigating the case.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 05, 2015, 10:02:26 PM
So what? They talked to everyone else.........oh, hang on, only if it was going to give them a platform to repeat their appeals. Answering questions was always low on their list of priorities. As MWT was reviewing the evidence he would have expected his questions to be answered.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 05, 2015, 10:26:14 PM
So what? They talked to everyone else.........oh, hang on, only if it was going to give them a platform to repeat their appeals. Answering questions was always low on their list of priorities. As MWT was reviewing the evidence he would have expected his questions to be answered.
as you can's see why they wouldn't come on here and answer questions I don't expect a lot of sense out of you
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on November 05, 2015, 10:41:01 PM
as you can's see why they wouldn't come on here and answer questions I don't expect a lot of sense out of you
You said they didn't speak to MWT because of an ongoing investigation. There wasn't one at the time. Then you said it was because it's an unsolved case. Nevertheless they have spoken to lots of other people. Now you've run out of ideas and attacked. How predictable.
I suggest it was because he wasn't following the official version with his 'woke and wandered'. After all, they knew that wasn't what happened. How, I don't know. Perhaps it was impossible for some reason.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 05, 2015, 10:50:35 PM
You said they didn't speak to MWT because of an ongoing investigation. There wasn't one at the time. Then you said it was because it's an unsolved case. Nevertheless they have spoken to lots of other people. Now you've run out of ideas and attacked. How predictable.
I suggest it was because he wasn't following the official version with his 'woke and wandered'. After all, they knew that wasn't what happened. How, I don't know. Perhaps it was impossible for some reason.
you have your opinion and I have mind...and neither really matters
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on November 05, 2015, 11:23:06 PM
I just said that the McCanns refused to talk to him. it was you who tried (unsuccessfully) to explain why they wouldn't.
I gave the reason why I think they didn't talk to him...my opinion....don't think you are the arbiter of truth on this forum...that is delusional. We all have our own opinions and really...they count for nothing...including yours
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 06, 2015, 08:19:09 AM
He was a constable / FLO for ten years then left He did a degree in criminoloy (as did Pat Brown but of course she s crazy so dengrated all the time!) He is an investigative journalist these days and has had a couple of successes He concentrates on child sex abuse He set up a company advising on child protection...have no idea on that detail He is a talking head with some experience and knowledge in the area but no expert on police dogs therefore any comments made on that front can safely be taken wth a pinch of salt I skimmed through his report, it wasnt bad but it was a bit slapdash in places (as if he had skimmed through the police files) and of course he has ommitted certain things! But as a "journalist" I find hm not too bad compared to the other pantomime figures
yet you want to think that amaral is an expert on the dogs and can deduce that Maddie died in the apartment....lots of hypocrisy there...no wonder he's getting humiliated by his own countries courts
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 06, 2015, 08:25:12 AM
yet you want to think that amaral is an expert on the dogs and can deduce that Maddie died in the apartment....lots of hypocrisy there...no wonder he's getting humiliated by his own countries courts
The ones taking him to court are the blessed mccanns.
In their pursuit of money and revenge.
As to the Portuguese people, there is no doubt the vast majority are pizzed off with the mccanns.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 06, 2015, 08:33:59 AM
I gave the reason why I think they didn't talk to him...my opinion....don't think you are the arbiter of truth on this forum...that is delusional. We all have our own opinions and really...they count for nothing...including yours
Unless an opinion is based on fact it's useless, as in your assertion that the McCanns didn't allow MWT an interview because of an ongoing investigation. Without an investigation existing that opinion is baseless, it's invented.
Until MWT answers the McCann's reasons for dismissing woke and wandered his theory is useless too. I can answer the McCann's arguments (in brackets). The McCanns say she;
Couldn't open the shutters. (No evidence they ever were open) Wouldn't have drawn the curtains at the patio door back together when she exited. (Would she need to or just go behind them to open the door?) Wouldn't have opened the child gate and closed it behind her, especially taking account of the child lock on it. (She could have, and she could have climbed over it, and who says it was closed and locked anyway) Wouldn't have closed the side gate behind her. (Why not?)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 06, 2015, 10:25:48 AM
Unless an opinion is based on fact it's useless, as in your assertion that the McCanns didn't allow MWT an interview because of an ongoing investigation. Without an investigation existing that opinion is baseless, it's invented.
Until MWT answers the McCann's reasons for dismissing woke and wandered his theory is useless too. I can answer the McCann's arguments (in brackets). The McCanns say she;
Couldn't open the shutters. (No evidence they ever were open) Wouldn't have drawn the curtains at the patio door back together when she exited. (Would she need to or just go behind them to open the door?) Wouldn't have opened the child gate and closed it behind her, especially taking account of the child lock on it. (She could have, and she could have climbed over it, and who says it was closed and locked anyway) Wouldn't have closed the side gate behind her. (Why not?)
you are confusing facts with your interpretation of the facts. There are very few absolute facts in this case. One fact here is that MWT said he did not consider the parents were criminally involved...that is a fact...whether you believe statement has validity is a matter of opinion. posters here have criticised his criticism of the dog's alerts saying he is not an expert...yet the same posters support amaral's opinion when he is not an expert and had no experience of cadaver dogs prior to this case...hypocrisy
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 06, 2015, 10:33:42 AM
you are confusing facts with your interpretation of the facts. There are very few absolute facts in this case. One fact here is that MWT said he did not consider the parents were criminally involved...that is a fact...whether you believe statement has validity is a matter of opinion. posters here have criticised his criticism of the dog's alerts saying he is not an expert...yet the same posters support amaral's opinion when he is not an expert and had no experience of cadaver dogs prior to this case...hypocrisy
It is MWT'S opinion.
Your posts simply reveal what is well known...............
The abduction hypothesis has gone nowhere.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on November 06, 2015, 11:00:39 AM
The only thing of relevance here, is the action taken by the mccanns, in their grubby attempts to get more money and revenge.
IMO of course.
So it was ok for Amaral to write a book to get money was it? At least the money the McCann's hope to receive will go into the fund to find Madeleine and not to fund a lavish life style.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 06, 2015, 11:06:09 AM
So it was ok for Amaral to write a book to get money was it? At least the money the McCann's hope to receive will go into the fund to find Madeleine and not to fund a lavish life style.
Where has the money gone from the serialization tights in the 'sun' ?
and would you care to remind me how much of the fund was spent on 'searching' and not 'other expenses' ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 06, 2015, 11:15:50 AM
Your posts simply reveal what is well known...............
The abduction hypothesis has gone nowhere.
MWT's opinion is that the parents are not involved That is a fact He is an experienced investigator Another fact He highlighted faults in the ph investigation Fact
Does anyone know in what capacity he was in PDL
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 06, 2015, 11:27:01 AM
MWT's opinion is that the parents are not involved That is a fact He is an experienced investigator Another fact He highlighted faults in the ph investigation Fact
Does anyone know in what capacity he was in PDL
FACT.
What he said is merely an opinion.
Has he highlighted faults in the current investigations, which are clearly running up a blind alley ?
Is he aware as well, there is no evidence of abduction in this case worth a damn ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on November 06, 2015, 11:44:04 AM
you are confusing facts with your interpretation of the facts. There are very few absolute facts in this case. One fact here is that MWT said he did not consider the parents were criminally involved...that is a fact...whether you believe statement has validity is a matter of opinion. posters here have criticised his criticism of the dog's alerts saying he is not an expert...yet the same posters support amaral's opinion when he is not an expert and had no experience of cadaver dogs prior to this case...hypocrisy
The fact I was referring to is that parents choose not to be interviewed by MWT. If it's not a fact then he is telling lies. You choose to speculate as to why they didn't grant him an interview. You suggested it was because there was an ongoing investigation, but there wasn't. Therefore your speculation was not based on fact, it was just a guess.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 06, 2015, 11:46:37 AM
MWT's opinion is that the parents are not involved That is a fact He is an experienced investigator Another fact He highlighted faults in the ph investigation Fact
Does anyone know in what capacity he was in PDL
MWT gives no reason for believing the parents are not involved, so his opinion is simply that, his opinion with nothing to back it up.
Could you provide evidence of his experience? We only have his word for it as far as I know.
He has highlighted faults in the PJ investigation, but unless he has experience of organising such investigations his opinion is just another opinion.
He was in PdL at Sky's request, I believe.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on November 06, 2015, 12:06:40 PM
MWT gives no reason for believing the parents are not involved, so his opinion is simply that, his opinion with nothing to back it up.
Could you provide evidence of his experience? We only have his word for it as far as I know.
He has highlighted faults in the PJ investigation, but unless he has experience of organising such investigations his opinion is just another opinion.
He was in PdL at Sky's request, I believe.
MWT is well qualified to give an informed opinion.....his CV is available on the net...you want to dismiss him because he knocks everything you believe in. I hadn't seen that report before but he has reached exactly the same conclusions that I have over the statements and the dogs and like me thinks the mcccanns are not criminally involved......nice to see someone in his position thinks exactly the same as me
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 06, 2015, 08:41:51 PM
MWT is well qualified to give an informed opinion.....his CV is available on the net...you want to dismiss him because he knocks everything you believe in. I hadn't seen that report before but he has reached exactly the same conclusions that I have over the statements and the dogs and like me thinks the mcccanns are not criminally involved......nice to see someone in his position thinks exactly the same as me
Martin Grime's CV is on that tinternet as well.
I found this bit about MW-T rather droll. "Between 2001 and 2002, Williams-Thomas was the marketing manager and a director of GumFighters, a "national chewing gum removal specialist". The company were hired by various councils to clean their streets".
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 06, 2015, 08:59:31 PM
I found this bit about MW-T rather droll. "Between 2001 and 2002, Williams-Thomas was the marketing manager and a director of GumFighters, a "national chewing gum removal specialist". The company were hired by various councils to clean their streets".
great post...it illustrates your selective blindness
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 06, 2015, 09:09:40 PM
MWT is well qualified to give an informed opinion.....his CV is available on the net...you want to dismiss him because he knocks everything you believe in. I hadn't seen that report before but he has reached exactly the same conclusions that I have over the statements and the dogs and like me thinks the mcccanns are not criminally involved......nice to see someone in his position thinks exactly the same as me
So is he an expert dog handler like you dave ? *&*%Ł
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 06, 2015, 09:11:18 PM
I found this bit about MW-T rather droll. "Between 2001 and 2002, Williams-Thomas was the marketing manager and a director of GumFighters, a "national chewing gum removal specialist". The company were hired by various councils to clean their streets".
Wrigleys crime fighter disses dogs in Madeleine case...
8)--))
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on November 06, 2015, 09:29:23 PM
MWT is well qualified to give an informed opinion.....his CV is available on the net...you want to dismiss him because he knocks everything you believe in. I hadn't seen that report before but he has reached exactly the same conclusions that I have over the statements and the dogs and like me thinks the mcccanns are not criminally involved......nice to see someone in his position thinks exactly the same as me
In his position? Please give a cite for his CV because I have heard he was a Detective Constable (acting). I would like to check that out.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 06, 2015, 09:31:24 PM
I dont know anything about his y fronts lol but what I find a little odd is that not a single person in the uk in any related professional position has questioned anythng much, on the contrary, all seem to have gone out of their way to profess total innocence...it is not the same in the rest of the world...maybe they were scared off/sue threats etc
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 06, 2015, 09:53:32 PM
I dont know anything about his y fronts lol but what I find a little odd is that not a single person in the uk in any related professional position has questioned anythng much, on the contrary, all seem to have gone out of their way to profess total innocence...it is not the same in the rest of the world...maybe they were scared off/sue threats etc
I don't think it's odd...makes perfect sense..so who in the rest of the world disagrees with MWT and SY
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 06, 2015, 10:02:43 PM
In his position? Please give a cite for his CV because I have heard he was a Detective Constable (acting). I would like to check that out.
"Williams-Thomas served as a constable and family liaison officer with Surrey Police[5] from 1989 to 2000.[2] He was reportedly awarded several commendations".
"Williams-Thomas served as a constable and family liaison officer with Surrey Police[5] from 1989 to 2000.[2] He was reportedly awarded several commendations".
Is a constable the same as a detective? Last link says detective
A detective customarily is in plain clothes. All ranks are the same whether uniform or plain clothes. ie Detective Constable or Constable up to Detective Chief Superintendent or Chief Superintendent depending on the clobber they wear to work.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on November 06, 2015, 11:37:26 PM
A detective customarily is in plain clothes. All ranks are the same whether uniform or plain clothes. ie Detective Constable or Constable up to Detective Chief Superintendent or Chief Superintendent depending on the clobber they wear to work.
Thanks 8)--))
.....
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on November 07, 2015, 12:09:04 AM
What exactly is your point Stephen? grumbling about how much the fund spent on manning a switch board to find a missing child.
I don't post on this forum very often and so no I didn't know it was 13% how exactly was that percentage arrived at?
The amount paid to PIs was 13 per cent of all income in their 2007/2008 transparent(just the once) accounts
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1131284/Where-2m-gave-Madeleine-McCann-gone.html one could argue any and all other expenditure 2007 to 2014 was for the search but its not a given by any means especially seeing as all accounts published after the first year were hidden....it all depends on where the parameters of "search" reach to....and tbh they seem to be flexible infinately
The expenses can all be explained I guess one way or another but I tell you that when GM says the vast majority of the (5m) fund was spent directly in search fees (thats an actual quote and on tv and citable) he was massaging the truth....
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 07, 2015, 10:26:05 AM
The amount paid to PIs was 13 per cent of all income in their 2007/2008 transparent(just the once) accounts
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1131284/Where-2m-gave-Madeleine-McCann-gone.html one could argue any and all other expenditure 2007 to 2014 was for the search but its not a given by any means especially seeing as all accounts published after the first year were hidden....it all depends on where the parameters of "search" reach to....and tbh they seem to be flexible infinately
The expenses can all be explained I guess one way or another but I tell you that when GM says the vast majority of the (5m) fund was spent directly in search fees (thats an actual quote and on tv and citable) he was massaging the truth....
you admit you don't know how much has actually been spent on searching the criticise Gerry for being dishonest...you don't seem to know what you are talking about
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 07, 2015, 10:33:11 AM
you admit you don't know how much has actually been spent on searching the criticise Gerry for being dishonest...you don't seem to know what you are talking about
The post from Mercury is quite clear cut, as are the figures.
Approx. 13% spent on 'searching'.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 07, 2015, 10:39:09 AM
The post from Mercury is quite clear cut, as are the figures.
Approx. 13% spent on 'searching'.
one could argue any and all other expenditure 2007 to 2014 was for the search but its not a given by any means especially seeing as all accounts published after the first year were hidden....it all depends on where the parameters of "search" reach to....and tbh they seem to be flexible infinately
if that's your definition of clear cut you are deluded
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2015, 10:49:38 AM
TOPIC. PLEASE.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 07, 2015, 10:58:50 AM
one could argue any and all other expenditure 2007 to 2014 was for the search but its not a given by any means especially seeing as all accounts published after the first year were hidden....it all depends on where the parameters of "search" reach to....and tbh they seem to be flexible infinately
if that's your definition of clear cut you are deluded
I hate to disappoint, but legal and 'personal' expenses do not include searching.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on November 07, 2015, 11:04:52 AM
The fact is posters have come to the conclusion that 13% is about an accurate percentage of money spent on the search for Madeleine, when they have no idea about the cost of running the search for Madeleine fund.
I would say that it is a lot more than that, but then again I have no experience in running such a fund.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on November 07, 2015, 11:21:51 AM
The fact is posters have come to the conclusion that 13% is about an accurate percentage of money spent on the search for Madeleine, when they have no idea about the cost of running the search for Madeleine fund.
I would say that it is a lot more than that, but then again I have no experience in running such a fund.
Me neither Lace, but according to some anything which doesn't involve jetting off to Portugal or anywhere else every weekend and walking around 'searching' doesn't count.
The legal costs of making Madeleine a ward of court to eliminate problems if and when she was found is just one example of an action which IMO comes under the heading of 'searching'. I'm sure there are many more - but they are not recognised by some sceptics who only have one fixed idea of what 'searching' means.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 07, 2015, 11:24:25 AM
Me neither Lace, but according to some anything which doesn't involve jetting off to Portugal or anywhere else every weekend and walking around 'searching' doesn't count.
The legal costs of making Madeleine a ward of court to eliminate problems if and when she was found is just one example of an action which IMO comes under the heading of 'searching'. I'm sure there are many more - but they are not recognised by some sceptics who only have one fixed idea of what 'searching' means.
stopping amaral saying maddie was dead was also important as no one is going to look for a dead child
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 07, 2015, 11:32:03 AM
T get back on track it is good to see that MWT supports the McCanns
Comments made by the majority of former law enforcement officers, Brits and FBI, agree that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger. It is also widely considered by professionals with experience in the field, that the first investigation was botched.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on November 07, 2015, 03:18:54 PM
T get back on track it is good to see that MWT supports the McCanns
Precisely Davel his was an abduction by stranger theory with no involvement by either parent. Yet remarkably it seems very few anti-Amaral posters like it. As MWT correctly points out, opportunistic abduction from the street is far far more likely. Why do you insist it had to be preplanned abduction from bed?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 07, 2015, 03:23:37 PM
Precisely Davel his was an abduction by stranger theory with no involvement by either parent. Yet remarkably it seems very few anti-Amaral posters like it. As MWT correctly points out, opportunistic abduction from the street is far far more likely. Why do you insist it had to be preplanned abduction from bed?
I've never insisted anything
I don't believe the parents are involved and that abduction is by far the most likely option
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on November 07, 2015, 03:31:29 PM
The people dining at the table did not see GM go in and out to do his check, did not see MO going in and out to do his check, and did not see KM going in and out to do her check. None of the diners were watching the lounge balcony door, and they couldn't even see the left part of it from the table anyway. Therefore if the child went out that lounge balcony door (MWT theory) the diners at the table would have been completely unaware.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on November 07, 2015, 03:39:40 PM
Precisely Davel his was an abduction by stranger theory with no involvement by either parent. Yet remarkably it seems very few anti-Amaral posters like it. As MWT correctly points out, opportunistic abduction from the street is far far more likely. Why do you insist it had to be preplanned abduction from bed?
Coz Kate and Gerry said so?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 07, 2015, 03:43:41 PM
The fact is posters have come to the conclusion that 13% is about an accurate percentage of money spent on the search for Madeleine, when they have no idea about the cost of running the search for Madeleine fund.
I would say that it is a lot more than that, but then again I have no experience in running such a fund.
Depends how the calculation is done. As a percentage of gross income the search costs were 13% for FY2007/2008. It is shown in the accounts filed at Companies House so no argument there. The sum was Ł250k spent on searching according the accounts. Total income Ł1.8MM total expenditure Ł811k. I wouldn't express like that I would express it as a percentage of expenditure which make it 30% but whatever it is Ł250k cash money. From FY 2008 onward it cannot be calculated because the costs are not broken down. The gross figures are interesting if you know what you are looking at 8(>((
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 07, 2015, 07:17:54 PM
Precisely Davel his was an abduction by stranger theory with no involvement by either parent. Yet remarkably it seems very few anti-Amaral posters like it. As MWT correctly points out, opportunistic abduction from the street is far far more likely. Why do you insist it had to be preplanned abduction from bed?
I quite like MW-T's theory. As I have pointed out before: For there to have been an abduction the paths of the child and abductor had to have crossed. That means she got out or he got in. The consensus among the cops was there was no break in. Self selecting if one insists on the abduction by stranger bit ?>)()<
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on November 07, 2015, 07:39:46 PM
I quite like MW-T's theory. As I have pointed out before: For there to have been an abduction the paths of the child and abductor had to have crossed. That means she got out or he got in. The consensus among the cops was there was no break in. Self selecting if one insists on the abduction by stranger bit ?>)()<
Precisely Alice, MWT refers to the case of evil Whiting, who was an opportunistic abductor who saw a child in the street momentarily not in sight of anyone else. And expert O'C (whose theory is very similar to MWT's) refers to the case of evil Huntley, again an opportunistic abductor who saw two children in the street momentarily not in sight of anyone else. Both experts point out this is far more likely than the carefully pre-planned abduction from a bed, for which there is no evidence, that has been invented by Mr Amaral's opponents.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 09, 2015, 01:41:55 PM
Not sure if this is the appropriate thread or not John, but perhaps you could explain how you think Madeleine could have woke, wandered never to be seen again, without any third party involvement?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 11, 2015, 11:43:47 PM
Not sure if this is the appropriate thread or not John, but perhaps you could explain how you think Madeleine could have woke, wandered never to be seen again, without any third party involvement?
hypothetically a manhole with cover off? that would have no intentional 3rd party involvement
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 12, 2015, 12:12:56 AM
hypothetically a manhole with cover off? that would have no intentional 3rd party involvement
We have seen the Scotland Yard team in 2014 lifting covers and inspecting the drainage system. Was that a repeat of a diligence carried out in 2007?
Was a specialist unit deployed to check out specifically those trenches which were open in the town when Madeleine disappeared. The GNR dogs knew their stuff, I'm sure accompanying such a search would have been well within their capabilities.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 12, 2015, 08:21:27 AM
hypothetically a manhole with cover off? that would have no intentional 3rd party involvement
Is health and safety really that poor in Portugal that manhole covers are left off for people to disappear down holes in the dark never to be seen again?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 12, 2015, 10:10:56 PM
Is health and safety really that poor in Portugal that manhole covers are left off for people to disappear down holes in the dark never to be seen again?
Well normallly parents dont make it easy for their kids to do this...you know... Leaving them all alone whilst they nip to their local and with front door and back door unlocked....responsible parenting though it was we are told by a barrister
"snort"
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 12, 2015, 10:35:37 PM
We have seen the Scotland Yard team in 2014 lifting covers and inspecting the drainage system. Was that a repeat of a diligence carried out in 2007?
Was a specialist unit deployed to check out specifically those trenches which were open in the town when Madeleine disappeared. The GNR dogs knew their stuff, I'm sure accompanying such a search would have been well within their capabilities.
in 2014 SY inspected underground drains, but only at their "wasteland" search site. Not near the apartment and supermarket - the press would have noticed and told us.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 12, 2015, 10:58:07 PM
in 2014 SY inspected underground drains, but only at their "wasteland" search site. Not near the apartment and supermarket - the press would have noticed and told us.
The press would probably have taken note of the same diligence being carried out in 2007 ... did they?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 12, 2015, 11:21:01 PM
The press would probably have taken note of the same diligence being carried out in 2007 ... did they?
I've seen no evidence that the underground drains near the apartment and supermarket were ever thoroughly searched, not in May 2007, and not since.
The witness statement which said "I saw a manhole with a cover removed ... anyone could have fallen in ... concerned that she may have fallen down the manhole and was not seen." was not received until mid-Jan 2008.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 13, 2015, 02:35:38 AM
I've seen no evidence that the underground drains near the apartment and supermarket were ever thoroughly searched, not in May 2007, and not since.
The witness statement which said "I saw a manhole with a cover removed ... anyone could have fallen in ... concerned that she may have fallen down the manhole and was not seen." was not received until mid-Jan 2008.
Nonetheless it tends to show that all investigative possibilities were not carried through to a logical conclusion at the time. The off chance of the disposal of remains in a drain. The woke and wandered theory resulting in accident, by rechecking the trenches which had been filled in using trained searchers and their dogs.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 14, 2015, 02:29:59 AM
Nonetheless it tends to show that all investigative possibilities were not carried through to a logical conclusion at the time. The off chance of the disposal of remains in a drain. The woke and wandered theory resulting in accident, by rechecking the trenches which had been filled in using trained searchers and their dogs.
The 2 trenches which were open that night were carefully checked on the 4th before filling in. They were for electric water and telephone (not for storm drains or sewer drains). IMO the 2 trenches are of no interest because they are nothing to do with drains.
What is of interest is the manhole seen by a witness that night with its cover off. IMO as soon as that witness statement was recieved (17 Jan 2008) the Rebelo PJ and LP team should have re-contacted the witness and used a street map to identify the road junction, then used photos to identify the exact manhole.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 14, 2015, 12:39:35 PM
The 2 trenches which were open that night were carefully checked on the 4th before filling in. They were for electric water and telephone (not for storm drains or sewer drains). IMO the 2 trenches are of no interest because they are nothing to do with drains.
What is of interest is the manhole seen by a witness that night with its cover off. IMO as soon as that witness statement was recieved (17 Jan 2008) the Rebelo PJ and LP team should have re-contacted the witness and used a street map to identify the road junction, then used photos to identify the exact manhole.
I'm not quite sure why neither the Rex Morgan or Gail Cooper statements weren't on record until the 17th and 16th January 2008. Both seemed to be pro-active and aware of the urgency of the situation.
We know the Smith Family statements were delayed because apparently the connection with Madeleine was not immediately apparent to them. However, and particularly with regard to Mr Morgan who understood the immediacy of the situation ... the delay is quite remarkable.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on December 14, 2015, 01:48:56 PM
I'm not quite sure why neither the Rex Morgan or Gail Cooper statements weren't on record until the 17th and 16th January 2008. Both seemed to be pro-active and aware of the urgency of the situation.
We know the Smith Family statements were delayed because apparently the connection with Madeleine was not immediately apparent to them. However, and particularly with regard to Mr Morgan who understood the immediacy of the situation ... the delay is quite remarkable.
Gail Cooper's first statement was made on 21st May 2007. I assume to UK police officers because it's in English with no translation. The question arising is was it passed on to the PJ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 14, 2015, 04:07:08 PM
Gail Cooper's first statement was made on 21st May 2007. I assume to UK police officers because it's in English with no translation. The question arising is was it passed on to the PJ?
The question is, if a child does wake and wander onto the streets as MWT's theory states, how is it possible to then instantly disappear from the face of the earth?
G Cooper's statement has no relevance to that question. The majority of R Morgan's statement has no relevance to it. The bit that is relevant, because it gives a potential answer, is the last bit of the statement, about a manhole with cover removed. Unfortunatly after police obtained this statement on 17 Jan 2008 they spent a lot of time following up the charity collecter bit, but seem to have completely ignored the completely seperate important manhole information at the end.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on December 14, 2015, 08:05:24 PM
The question is, if a child does wake and wander onto the streets as MWT's theory states, how is it possible to then instantly disappear from the face of the earth?
G Cooper's statement has no relevance to that question. The majority of R Morgan's statement has no relevance to it. The bit that is relevant, because it gives a potential answer, is the last bit of the statement, about a manhole with cover removed. Unfortunatly after police obtained this statement on 17 Jan 2008 they spent a lot of time following up the charity collecter bit, but seem to have completely ignored the completely seperate important manhole information at the end.
There were many people searching that night. Surely some of them looked in that hole/
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 15, 2015, 12:26:44 AM
There were many people searching that night. Surely some of them looked in that hole/
You're good G-unit, yes if the manhole was open all night IMO someone else would have seen and mentioned it.
The witness says he saw a manhole with cover and frame removed (he saw them out of place at the side of the road), then next day saw frame and cover had been replaced. He worries that someone might have fallen into it while it was uncovered.
What if someone replaced the cover and frame early in the search?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on December 15, 2015, 12:55:52 AM
You're good G-unit, yes if the manhole was open all night IMO someone else would have seen and mentioned it.
The witness says he saw a manhole with cover and frame removed (he saw them out of place at the side of the road), then next day saw frame and cover had been replaced. He worries that someone might have fallen into it while it was uncovered.
What if someone replaced the cover and frame early in the search?
Highly unlikely. But someone could have replaced the cover before the search had begun.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on December 15, 2015, 12:57:31 AM
Somewhere, there is a statement that all that was checked.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on December 15, 2015, 01:07:11 AM
Somewhere, there is a statement that all that was checked.
It wasn't checked by the cadaver dogs afaik. Strange that no-one else saw the cover off. Highly improbable it was used as a temporary hiding place but not impossible.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on December 15, 2015, 01:18:53 AM
It wasn't checked by the cadaver dogs afaik. Strange that no-one else saw the cover off. Highly improbable it was used as a temporary hiding place but not impossible.
Not the cadaver dogs, no.
But is this something different?
Witness statement
Fabio Alexandre Rodrigues Marques
Date: 2007-05-31
Occupation: Machine Operator
He comes to the process as a witness.
He works for the company Canana and Sons since the 1st May of this year carrying out the functions of machine operator, having signed a work contract on the same date. That since this time, he began works on the works already in progress on some of the roads in P da L. According to his functions since 1st May, the witness began to open passages in the main roads using a mini drill, these passages were destined for the installation of electrical cables and drains for rain water respectively, in Rua Direita.
When questioned, the witness replies that the passages and holes made were generally covered up on the same day they were made.
In relation to other openings that could have remained open during the night, from one day to another, the witness says that in the case of the passages, anyone who would fall in would be visible from the road and that the other openings were too small for a two year old child to fall in. The witness adds that these openings would in turn be linked to a series of conducts of a larger size, knowing that in order to link an opening to a conduct, an orifice would be opened in the latter, opened up using a drill. These conducts would have round metallic covers. He saw some of these covers open, for the purposes of being levelled with the pavement, however he knows they were closed at the end of the working day.
When questioned, the witness says that he remembers that on the day following the disappearance, on 4th May, various GNR officers with dogs appeared on the scene, who had come to examine the possibility that the girl might be in one of the openings. The witness says that following the events he paid more attention to the work site and never saw anything abnormal, namely the fact that the missing child could be there.
When asked, the witness says that he considers that there were no openings, that due to their size, location or to being open could present a risk for a child to fall in and disappear.
He works for the company Canana and Sons since the 1st May of this year carrying out the functions of machine operator, having signed a work contract on the same date. That since this time, he began works on the works already in progress on some of the roads in P da L. According to his functions since 1st May, the witness began to open passages in the main roads using a mini drill, these passages were destined for the installation of electrical cables and drains for rain water respectively, in Rua Direita.
When questioned, the witness replies that the passages and holes made were generally covered up on the same day they were made.
In relation to other openings that could have remained open during the night, from one day to another, the witness says that in the case of the passages, anyone who would fall in would be visible from the road and that the other openings were too small for a two year old child to fall in. The witness adds that these openings would in turn be linked to a series of conducts of a larger size, knowing that in order to link an opening to a conduct, an orifice would be opened in the latter, opened up using a drill. These conducts would have round metallic covers. He saw some of these covers open, for the purposes of being levelled with the pavement, however he knows they were closed at the end of the working day.
When questioned, the witness says that he remembers that on the day following the disappearance, on 4th May, various GNR officers with dogs appeared on the scene, who had come to examine the possibility that the girl might be in one of the openings. The witness says that following the events he paid more attention to the work site and never saw anything abnormal, namely the fact that the missing child could be there.
When asked, the witness says that he considers that there were no openings, that due to their size, location or to being open could present a risk for a child to fall in and disappear.
Thanks for that Ferryman. I wonder how early he started work that morning & what he had done before the GNR & their dogs arrived on the scene. Perhaps the open manhole RM saw was obscured by a parked vehicle on the evening of the 3rd.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 15, 2015, 02:16:13 AM
From Marques' statement "... drains for rain water ... in Rua Direita ... round metallic covers ... saw some of these covers open for the purposes of being levelled with the pavement ..." Thanks Ferryman.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 15, 2015, 02:25:42 AM
It wasn't checked by the cadaver dogs afaik. Strange that no-one else saw the cover off. Highly improbable it was used as a temporary hiding place but not impossible.
I agreeing with the witness am concerned in the dark someone might have fallen in Misty. It would be an accidental conclusion for MWT woke and wandered theory. No perp involved.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on December 15, 2015, 02:44:54 AM
I agreeing with the witness am concerned in the dark someone might have fallen in Misty. It would be an accidental conclusion for MWT woke and wandered theory. No perp involved.
There is a remote possibility that scenario occurred. Factoring in the comings & goings of guests & staff to the Tapas Bar & the arrival of new guests that night who were still being ferried around from reception to their apartments, I'd be amazed if no-one had spotted a small child wandering around on her own. That still doesn't explain all the other anomalies, though.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 15, 2015, 11:54:34 AM
He works for the company Canana and Sons since the 1st May of this year carrying out the functions of machine operator, having signed a work contract on the same date. That since this time, he began works on the works already in progress on some of the roads in P da L. According to his functions since 1st May, the witness began to open passages in the main roads using a mini drill, these passages were destined for the installation of electrical cables and drains for rain water respectively, in Rua Direita.
When questioned, the witness replies that the passages and holes made were generally covered up on the same day they were made.
In relation to other openings that could have remained open during the night, from one day to another, the witness says that in the case of the passages, anyone who would fall in would be visible from the road and that the other openings were too small for a two year old child to fall in. The witness adds that these openings would in turn be linked to a series of conducts of a larger size, knowing that in order to link an opening to a conduct, an orifice would be opened in the latter, opened up using a drill. These conducts would have round metallic covers. He saw some of these covers open, for the purposes of being levelled with the pavement, however he knows they were closed at the end of the working day.
When questioned, the witness says that he remembers that on the day following the disappearance, on 4th May, various GNR officers with dogs appeared on the scene, who had come to examine the possibility that the girl might be in one of the openings. The witness says that following the events he paid more attention to the work site and never saw anything abnormal, namely the fact that the missing child could be there.
When asked, the witness says that he considers that there were no openings, that due to their size, location or to being open could present a risk for a child to fall in and disappear.
I don't think there is the slightest doubt that had Madeleine been deliberately concealed in the works or had accidentally fallen in that the GNR dog teams would not have had the capability to find her. I think she would have been found if she was anywhere in the areas searched by them.
We know they were very thorough.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on December 15, 2015, 01:44:35 PM
There is a remote possibility that scenario occurred. Factoring in the comings & goings of guests & staff to the Tapas Bar & the arrival of new guests that night who were still being ferried around from reception to their apartments, I'd be amazed if no-one had spotted a small child wandering around on her own. That still doesn't explain all the other anomalies, though.
Really?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on December 15, 2015, 04:28:40 PM
Bernardino Abreu Pereira da Silva (previously identified on p 372)
He confirms the integrity of his statement on page 372.
When asked, he says he no longer works for the MW OC for health reasons, he made the decision to resign.
When questioned about having made a telephone call on 3rd May at 21.00.11 having activated antennas in P da L, when his working day finished at 20.30, he says that on this day, as well as on others, he was delayed because he had to carry out the transport, even though it was late, of some tourists. At this time he was driving the minibus belonging to the establishment. H e also says, that on this day, as well as the transport already referred to, he was late because of the fact that some tourists did not have the key to their apartment.
With regard to the number that he dialled on that day at that time, he says it was the number 966****** corresponding to his wife?s number, which was confirmed in this file. He has nothing else to add. Reads, ratifies, signs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Somewhere in the files there is a statement saying that Thursdays were a changeover day due to incoming flights to Faro. Can't remember where right now, I must have skim-read it.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on December 15, 2015, 05:41:40 PM
Bernardino Abreu Pereira da Silva (previously identified on p 372)
He confirms the integrity of his statement on page 372.
When asked, he says he no longer works for the MW OC for health reasons, he made the decision to resign.
When questioned about having made a telephone call on 3rd May at 21.00.11 having activated antennas in P da L, when his working day finished at 20.30, he says that on this day, as well as on others, he was delayed because he had to carry out the transport, even though it was late, of some tourists. At this time he was driving the minibus belonging to the establishment. H e also says, that on this day, as well as the transport already referred to, he was late because of the fact that some tourists did not have the key to their apartment.
With regard to the number that he dialled on that day at that time, he says it was the number 966****** corresponding to his wife?s number, which was confirmed in this file. He has nothing else to add. Reads, ratifies, signs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Somewhere in the files there is a statement saying that Thursdays were a changeover day due to incoming flights to Faro. Can't remember where right now, I must have skim-read it.
What a shame it doesn't say whereabuts he was driving at 9pm.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on December 15, 2015, 05:48:53 PM
What a shame it doesn't say whereabuts he was driving at 9pm.
His starting point was on Rua Direta but I don't know where he parked up when he'd finished his shift. Perhaps it was beside block 6. Still, he was driving in the Ocean Club locale - a fact he omitted to mention during initial questioning.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 15, 2015, 06:46:49 PM
What a shame it doesn't say whereabuts he was driving at 9pm.
If you think this is significant, check the arrivals list and work out who was arriving 'out of normal time'. The MW lot came in mainly or only in a single blob. The McCanns/Paynes came in under their own steam.
This lot should have been late landers, say around 7pm at Faro.
That would be unusual, would it not? Early flight from London to Faro to get the plane turned round and back to London. Then another afternoon flight, but not landing at 7pm, as it should be back at London so it can do the early morning shuttle to where-ever.
Mind you, one flight attendant did rave about local fare in Luz, so I'm just thinking out loud at the moment.
&%+((Ł
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on December 15, 2015, 07:02:19 PM
If you think this is significant, check the arrivals list and work out who was arriving 'out of normal time'. The MW lot came in mainly or only in a single blob. The McCanns/Paynes came in under their own steam.
This lot should have been late landers, say around 7pm at Faro.
That would be unusual, would it not? Early flight from London to Faro to get the plane turned round and back to London. Then another afternoon flight, but not landing at 7pm, as it should be back at London so it can do the early morning shuttle to where-ever.
Mind you, one flight attendant did rave about local fare in Luz, so I'm just thinking out loud at the moment.
&%+((Ł
There are flights from Dublin which land at Faro 1825pm. Why does it have to be London?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 15, 2015, 07:17:09 PM
There are flights from Dublin which land at Faro 1825pm. Why does it have to be London?
It doesn't have to be London. 1825 landing sounds early, 3/4 hours for luggage and customs, 1 1/4 hours for a transit to OC. We're somewhere there or abouts. Hmmm.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 18, 2015, 01:01:23 AM
For example yesterday a Thursday there were late afternoon / evening flight arrivals at Faro from London Bristol Glasgow Dusseldorf Eindhoven Amsterdam
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on December 18, 2015, 01:31:34 AM
For example yesterday a Thursday there were late afternoon / evening flight arrivals at Faro from London Bristol Glasgow Dusseldorf Eindhoven Amsterdam
Therein lay a major deficiency in the original investigation. There were many other witnesses to be considered who could have been in the vicinity of the Tapas Bar & OC reception that night at various times yet the PJ concentrated only on MW guests & MW/OC employees. There was a Thomas Cook children's daytime club which operated in the resort (see Trip Advisor) & presumably shared some of the same facilities as MW clubs, yet no mention of interviewing any of the workers.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on December 18, 2015, 02:42:06 PM
Therein lay a major deficiency in the original investigation. There were many other witnesses to be considered who could have been in the vicinity of the Tapas Bar & OC reception that night at various times yet the PJ concentrated only on MW guests & MW/OC employees. There was a Thomas Cook children's daytime club which operated in the resort (see Trip Advisor) & presumably shared some of the same facilities as MW clubs, yet no mention of interviewing any of the workers.
As everyone was looking for a child who disappeared on the Thursday night, why would these other people appear to be relevant to the search?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 18, 2015, 02:54:14 PM
Therein lay a major deficiency in the original investigation. There were many other witnesses to be considered who could have been in the vicinity of the Tapas Bar & OC reception that night at various times yet the PJ concentrated only on MW guests & MW/OC employees. There was a Thomas Cook children's daytime club which operated in the resort (see Trip Advisor) & presumably shared some of the same facilities as MW clubs, yet no mention of interviewing any of the workers.
One of the greatest omissions was to miss out interviewing Mr and Mrs Moyes.
They were out and about at the time. They walked past the church on the way home. They walked past the supermarket. They entered the apartment 5 car park to reach their apartment immediately above Mrs Fenn. They sat out on their balcony. All after 9.00pm. They helped with the search for Madeleine.
A huge undertaking to track and check if holidaymakers of all nationalities might have seen something relevant ... but with passenger lists and assistance from other law enforcement agencies not an insurmountable one.
I don't think I am benefiting from hindsight when I say that the inward thinking of the investigation ~ which we now know started on the 4th May ~ obstructed any other avenue.
Abduction seems to have been dismissed out of hand. Woke and wandered didn't work after scrutiny
In combination with a co-ordinator who had just become an arguido and no doubt anxious for the kudos of yet another successful prosecution in a missing child case ... missing out obvious diligences in haste to get one may have been an explosive mixture.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 18, 2015, 03:10:16 PM
Therein lay a major deficiency in the original investigation. There were many other witnesses to be considered who could have been in the vicinity of the Tapas Bar & OC reception that night at various times yet the PJ concentrated only on MW guests & MW/OC employees. There was a Thomas Cook children's daytime club which operated in the resort (see Trip Advisor) & presumably shared some of the same facilities as MW clubs, yet no mention of interviewing any of the workers.
I think you are looking for too many 'other' workers.
MW had just bought the OC. So all Thomas Cook had to do was to agree child-care with MW, not provide it themselves. Somewhere along the line I remember seeing that one apartment was allotted to TC. That would be enough for a couple of TC reps, and I haven't seen any indication of more.
I suppose if this issue is deemed important enough, one could check the crčche registers to see if all children came only from the parents with MW.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: carol on December 18, 2015, 03:42:22 PM
If Madeleine 'woke and wandered' via the patio door , the opening must have been easily wide enough for her to squeeze through. I'm pretty sure the McCanns would not have left it that way and the child certainly would not have closed it behind her. Surely then Kate would have noticed and thought it strange. Was this then the reason she immediately 'knew' that Madeleine had been abducted? Oh no, it wasn't until she noticed the bedroom door slightly more open than she'd left it that doubts began to surface. She mentally put THIS down to Matt's previous checking but then when the door slammed shut she just 'knew' an abduction had taken place...................via the window.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 18, 2015, 04:12:40 PM
If Madeleine 'woke and wandered' via the patio door , the opening must have been easily wide enough for her to squeeze through. I'm pretty sure the McCanns would not have left it that way and the child certainly would not have closed it behind her. Surely then Kate would have noticed and thought it strange. Was this then the reason she immediately 'knew' that Madeleine had been abducted? Oh no, it wasn't until she noticed the bedroom door slightly more open than she'd left it that doubts began to surface. She mentally put THIS down to Matt's previous checking but then when the door slammed shut she just 'knew' an abduction had taken place...................via the window.
The patio door slides quite easily from either side ... Mr Amaral demonstrated in his documentary ... no need for anyone to 'squeeze' through a gap. You must have missed the lengthy discussion we had on this very point.
The difficulty with the woke and wandered theory is indeed, as you have rightly spotted, the open window but more particularly the raised shutter.
Thank heavens for proper investigation by a 'profiler' who kindly went to the bother of filming an ex police officer lifting it from the outside. Thus dispelling years of assertion such a thing could not be achieved from the outside.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 18, 2015, 06:04:14 PM
The patio door slides quite easily from either side ... Mr Amaral demonstrated in his documentary ... no need for anyone to 'squeeze' through a gap. You must have missed the lengthy discussion we had on this very point.
The difficulty with the woke and wandered theory is indeed, as you have rightly spotted, the open window but more particularly the raised shutter.
Thank heavens for proper investigation by a 'profiler' who kindly went to the bother of filming an ex police officer lifting it from the outside. Thus dispelling years of assertion such a thing could not be achieved from the outside.
The shutters don't fully raise from the outside, they jam and fall back down. Dianne found them lowered not raised and when she tried to lift them they twisted and got stuck in that position as seen in crime scene photos. The only way to keep the shutters raised it by using the cord on the inside.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 18, 2015, 06:06:50 PM
The shutters don't fully raise from the outside, they jam and fall back down. Dianne found them lowered not raised and when she tried to lift them they twisted and got stuck in that position as seen in crime scene photos. The only way to keep the shutters raised it by using the cord on the inside.
Raise them Open window Then reach in and pull cord
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 18, 2015, 06:25:45 PM
The shutters don't fully raise from the outside, they jam and fall back down. Dianne found them lowered not raised and when she tried to lift them they twisted and got stuck in that position as seen in crime scene photos. The only way to keep the shutters raised it by using the cord on the inside.
May I recommend the following demonstration of exactly how to raise a shutter from outside in less than a minute ... http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 18, 2015, 07:21:20 PM
May I recommend the following demonstration of exactly how to raise a shutter from outside in less than a minute ... http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
Tut, tut.
It does not mean an abduction occurred.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 18, 2015, 10:16:27 PM
May I recommend the following demonstration of exactly how to raise a shutter from outside in less than a minute ... http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
We have seen this before. If you look carefully enough and know what you are looking for you will note the key elements are out of camera shot.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 18, 2015, 10:41:29 PM
the most important point is that the "security" shutters can be opened from the outside...bizarre so every apartment on the complex was unlocked
I sleep with my "security" shutters open every night. I like to get up when the sun comes up.
My "security" does not come from the open shutters. It comes from locking the windows.
Therein lies the problem. Either every apartment on the complex left their window unlocked (and patio door) a la McCann, or they were safe, just like me.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 19, 2015, 01:22:26 AM
I sleep with my "security" shutters open every night. I like to get up when the sun comes up.
My "security" does not come from the open shutters. It comes from locking the windows.
Therein lies the problem. Either every apartment on the complex left their window unlocked (and patio door) a la McCann, or they were safe, just like me.
The "Drs Mccann" didnt know if their house was secure or not vis a vis windows and front door. See their witness statements, They also left the flat open knowingly via the patio doors AND told total strangers they left their kids alone,,,,...for them to state it felt safe is a total joke and an affront to all normal people/parents.....the fact they left their 3 babies in a vulnerable position says,,,,not sure really cos its insane at best however much the apologists shout it was really very reasonable LOL and even MORE wo because o f some pathetic barrister to say to them it was responsible..,am I allowed to utter my breath "Tosser" ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 19, 2015, 02:00:56 AM
I sleep with my "security" shutters open every night. I like to get up when the sun comes up.
My "security" does not come from the open shutters. It comes from locking the windows.
Therein lies the problem. Either every apartment on the complex left their window unlocked (and patio door) a la McCann, or they were safe, just like me.
I don't know a great deal about shutters. I would imagine that electrically operated ones are indeed 'security' shutters and would be next to impossible to open from outside. Whereas those with a manually operated mechanism are not and are capable of being opened from outside.
In common I imagine, with the majority of holidaymakers from a northern clime where we attempt to get as much sun as possible, not block it out ... I would have assumed these shutters to be for security.
In fact I would probably have been quite happy to have left my window open for fresh air as long as the shutters were down.
It simply would not have occurred to me that to be secure ... the window had to be locked.
That the other members of the McCann party immediately rushed to check if their windows were locked illustrates the fact that they were reliant on the security they thought the shutters provided.
The Drs McCann thought the front of the apartment was secure. It took them less than a minute to get from the tapas restaurant to the unlocked sliding door. It took Heri less than a minute to raise the shutter.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 19, 2015, 02:17:15 AM
I don't know a great deal about shutters. I would imagine that electrically operated ones are indeed 'security' shutters and would be next to impossible to open from outside. Whereas those with a manually operated mechanism are not and are capable of being opened from outside.
In common I imagine, with the majority of holidaymakers from a northern clime where we attempt to get as much sun as possible, not block it out ... I would have assumed these shutters to be for security.
In fact I would probably have been quite happy to have left my window open for fresh air as long as the shutters were down.
It simpl would not have occurred to me that to be secure ... the window had to be locked.
That the other members of the McCann party immediately rushed to check if their windows were locked illustrates the fact that they were reliant on the security they thought the shutters provided.
The Drs McCann thought the front of the apartment was secure. It took them less than a minute to get from the tapas restaurant to the unlocked sliding door. It took Heri less than a minute to raise the shutter.
You last sentence is totally false vis a vis those two thinking it was secure as they have said ie in the witness statements they werent sure of it whether it was secure or not secure,,,..,so dont try it on luv...,, the distance is totally irrelevant, not sure why you would think it isnt, sad...very sad indeed that two parents leaving their toddlers alone couldnt remember if where they left them was secure or not, ARE YU HAVING A LAUGH??!??
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 19, 2015, 02:36:40 AM
You last sentence is totally false vis a vis those two thinking it was secure as they have said ie in the witness statements they werent sure of it whether it was secure or not secure,,,..,so dont try it on luv...,, the distance is totally irrelevant, not sure why you would think it isnt, sad...very sad indeed that two parents leaving their toddlers alone couldnt remember if where they left them was secure or not, ARE YU HAVING A LAUGH??!??
The front door was locked. The shutter was down. They thought the front of the apartment was secure.
If you think differently please provide a quote and a cite where to identify where the quote comes from.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 19, 2015, 02:40:31 AM
The front door was locked. The shutter was down. They thought the front of the apartment was secure.
If you think differently please provide a quote and a cite where to identify where the quote comes from.
Locking the front door wasn't a priority it seems, nor was closing the shutter all the way down;
He clarifies that the main door was always closed but not necessarily locked with the key. He remained at home for about 15 minutes, dressing in tennis clothes, left by the front door, that he did not lock, As to the front door, he does not know exactly if he locked it. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door. the external blinds closed but with some slats open, http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2015, 09:21:24 AM
Locking the front door wasn't a priority it seems, nor was closing the shutter all the way down;
He clarifies that the main door was always closed but not necessarily locked with the key. He remained at home for about 15 minutes, dressing in tennis clothes, left by the front door, that he did not lock, As to the front door, he does not know exactly if he locked it. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door. the external blinds closed but with some slats open, http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
so the front door was closed but not locked...so as this was a yale type lock it could be closed and secure...but not double locked...the non verbatim twice translated statements can not be relied upon
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2015, 09:41:46 AM
so the front door was closed but not locked...so as this was a yale type lock it could be closed and secure...but not double locked...the non verbatim twice translated statements can not be relied upon
You can believe that four separate declarations in a statement were wrong. I think that's unlikely.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2015, 09:57:26 AM
You can believe that four separate declarations in a statement were wrong. I think that's unlikely.
without knowing what the McCanns actually said we cannot make a true judgeent...we know the pj used Mura as a translator...we have statements made by two people who knew him that he was not fluent...says it all
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 19, 2015, 10:33:35 AM
Please read the files before you ask me to do your donkey work
You have made an allegation stating "the witness statements" in support of your interpretation of events ... I wrongly assumed you would therefore have a cite to back that up. It appears you cannot.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 19, 2015, 10:49:51 AM
so the front door was closed but not locked...so as this was a yale type lock it could be closed and secure...but not double locked...the non verbatim twice translated statements can not be relied upon
I have a Yale type lock on one of my door which works on the principle of the lock in 5A ... when the door is closed it can only be opened from the outside using a key. Therefore common sense dictates the door is locked.
However, it seems that the failure of the investigation to check the availability and access to the apartment key was realised; which would perhaps explain Mr Amaral's risible attempt in his documentary at demonstrating how the lock could not be turned using a credit card.
... can't quite see where this figures in the woke and wandered theory ... which by the way has been discarded by most professionals who have studied the case ...
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 19, 2015, 01:05:37 PM
The front door was locked. The shutter was down. They thought the front of the apartment was secure.
If you think differently please provide a quote and a cite where to identify where the quote comes from.
Perhaps the front of the apartment was secure. Perhaps it was not, given that we don't know why there is a raised shutter and an open window.
Mind you, if they actually did think the front was secure, without checking items such as whether the window was locked or bothering about the state of the front door, then one does have to raise a criticism or two.
One of the few facts we know is that the patio door was unlocked, so we don't need to haggle over security at the front.
The flat was left unsecure, and knowingly left unsecure.
Whether Madeleine's fate lies in the unsecurity of the apartment is up for debate. We have known for years that the McCanns left the flat in an unsecure state, so that is hardly debateable. Can we move on?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2015, 03:29:01 PM
Moving on we know that the apartment wasn't secured. The reason given, according to Fiona Payne's evidence, was to allow Madeleine to get out if she woke up. MW-T decided that's what she did. No-one has proved she didn't.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 19, 2015, 05:01:19 PM
I'm afraid it has to be ruled out, otherwise the open window/shutter business is demonstrated to be false, which would never do. Deary me, no.
Without an extraordinary reason a child would not leave the apartment at night in the dark.
And here it is. Someone opening a child's bedroom shutter and window from outside at night provides that strong extraordinary reason, for a child to go out the sliding door at the opposite end of the apartment from the perceived danger, and run to find safety.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on December 19, 2015, 05:31:40 PM
I'm afraid it has to be ruled out, otherwise the open window/shutter business is demonstrated to be false, which would never do. Deary me, no.
Madeleine could have opened the window & shutter to look for her parents, and realised she couldn't climb safely out the window. The front door was easily opened from the inside if not double locked.
Cartas Rogatorias Vol V
Pages 33-35
Statement of Saleigh Gordon.
Occupation: Air Hostess 4 pages Date: 24th April de 2008
"The front door was easy to open from the inside unless it had been locked. We always used the wooden door overlooking the parking area to enter and exit the apartment."
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on December 19, 2015, 05:32:54 PM
In which case her fingerprints would have been all over the window and surrounds. None such found, I believe.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 19, 2015, 05:40:06 PM
In which case her fingerprints would have been all over the window and surrounds. None such found, I believe.
The bedroom window is exceedingly easy for a small child to open from inside. Also fairly easy for a small child from inside to pull the strap to open the shutter. But the observation by the 10pm checker that the shutter was all the way up, rules out a small child opening it IMO, because a small child wanting to climb out would open the shutter only about half way.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on December 19, 2015, 05:57:25 PM
The bedroom window is exceedingly easy for a small child to open from inside. Also fairly easy for a small child from inside to pull the strap to open the shutter. But the observation by the 10pm checker that the shutter was all the way up, rules out a small child opening it IMO, because a small child wanting to climb out would open the shutter only about half way.
I'm not convinced a 3 year old would have the spatial awareness to determine how far a shutter should be opened to allow an easy climb-through exit. I think a child would have opened first, looked out afterwards.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: slartibartfast on December 19, 2015, 06:38:26 PM
I'm talking about a woke & wandered scenario in which a living child, who would leave no cadaver odour in 5a, possibly left via the front of the apartment & disappeared.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 19, 2015, 07:37:14 PM
... for 8 years and completely failed to solve it.
IMO it was easily possible for a child to leave that apartment unaided, therefore the woke and wandered theory should not be ruled out.
I don't think any of the investigations ruled it out from first to last. It is an obvious starting point. That they progressed beyond that possibility is evidenced by the fact investigations have continued with suspects being sought.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2015, 07:50:20 PM
Without an extraordinary reason a child would not leave the apartment at night in the dark.
And here it is. Someone opening a child's bedroom shutter and window from outside at night provides that strong extraordinary reason, for a child to go out the sliding door at the opposite end of the apartment from the perceived danger, and run to find safety.
I think that would depend on the child. This child had already asked 'why didn't you come'...She was said to be confident. I can think of such a child waking if her sibling(s) cried and going to look for the parents. Finding an empty apartment she looks out of the patio doors, notices they are unlocked and exits onto the balcony. From there she could have been able to hear her father's voice (he admits he's loud). It would be quite normal for a child to do this if the parents were dining in the 'garden', so why not?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 19, 2015, 11:00:57 PM
I'm talking about a woke & wandered scenario in which a living child, who would leave no cadaver odour in 5a, possibly left via the front of the apartment & disappeared.
Mark Williams-Thomas linked the disappearances of Madeleine from Luz and Joana from Figuera because of their proximity in a small country (seven miles) ~ the short time between (four years).
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 20, 2015, 12:40:22 AM
You have made an allegation stating "the witness statements" in support of your interpretation of events ... I wrongly assumed you would therefore have a cite to back that up. It appears you cannot.
Quoting witnesses' police statements can never be "an allegation" or "personal interpretation" ... and so your assumption was, I agree, wrong....unless you can point me to any post of mine sayng "x y z made a statement about x y z" where it was not backed up (ps dont waste your time searching, it does not exist, ergo further raises the question why you would assume such in the first place!)
Kate statement 6 september 07 They left by the veranda door, which they left closed but not locked. Main door was closed but not locked.She thinks it could be opened from the inside but not from the outside.
Gerry statement 10 may 07 Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door.
So, just to recap your original post was , as I originally said, false:-
The front door was locked. The shutter was down. They thought the front of the apartment was secure.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 20, 2015, 12:44:42 AM
Quoting witnesses' police statements can never be "an allegation" or "personal interpretation" ... and so your assumption was, I agree, wrong....unless you can point me to any post of mine sayng "x y z made a statement about x y z" where it was not backed up (ps dont waste your time searching, it does not exist, ergo further raises the question why you would assume such in the first place!)
Kate statement 6 september 07 They left by the veranda door, which they left closed but not locked. Main door was closed but not locked.She thinks it could be opened from the inside but not from the outside.
Gerry statement 10 may 07 Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door.
Sigh ... a door which cannot be opened from the outside without the use of a key is by definition ... locked.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 20, 2015, 12:57:23 AM
There is no argument. If the door cannot be opened without the use of a key ... it is locked.
Yes there is You dont need a key to open an unlocked door from the inside...please remind yourself of the title of this thread!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 20, 2015, 02:25:10 AM
MWT theory has 3 parts 1. Woke. IMO yes. 2. Wandered. IMO yes certainly to another room at least. But MWT theory says wandered onto the street - IMO it's certainly possible but don't know if it happened or not. 3. Adducted (after wandering to the street). IMO extremely unlikely. If wandered onto street there must be some other explanation for then disappearing from street.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 20, 2015, 01:44:41 PM
If you believe that then did she wander into JW's pram. He was walking around that area from 8:30 to 9:20 and didn't see her. Nobody did so the chances that she wandered into an evil SOB is not likely at all.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 20, 2015, 02:25:29 PM
Yes there is You dont need a key to open an unlocked door from the inside...please remind yourself of the title of this thread!
The objective of having a lock on a door is to deny non-keyholders or intruders entry to the interior. Therefore, the shutter being down and the front door closed and requiring a key to open it ... the Drs McCann thought the front of the apartment secure from petty thieves. They did not know about the assaults which had been perpetrated on British children in their beds, so that did not enter their thinking. It did not occur to them that an abductor might be on the loose, so didn't give that a moment's thought either.
It is unlikely however that Madeleine would have been able to effect an exit through the door without leaving a forensic trace on the door or on the wall. Do we know if the door was dusted for fingerprints?
Mark Williams-Thomas considered the woke and wandered theory; he also considered the comparisons of the disappearance of another little girl which he was able to do without prejudice. Which was something the team leaders of the original investigation were prevented from considering. To do so would have questioned the conviction of Leonor Cipriano for her missing daughter's murder. Many of the investigating officers in Joana's case were also investigating Madeleine's.
Therefore it is wrong to say all avenues were open to investigation from the start if investigation of the connection between both cases was not considered particularly as an experienced professional like MWT thought it relevant to do so.
The team responsible for 'solving' Joana's case could scarcely afford to link her's to Madeleine's disappearance even if only for elimination purposes without prejudice to what had gone before.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 20, 2015, 02:52:51 PM
The objective of having a lock on a door is to deny non-keyholders or intruders entry to the interior. Therefore, the shutter being down and the front door closed and requiring a key to open it ... the Drs McCann thought the front of the apartment secure from petty thieves. They did not know about the assaults which had been perpetrated on British children in their beds, so that did not enter their thinking. It did not occur to them that an abductor might be on the loose, so didn't give that a moment's thought either.
It is unlikely however that Madeleine would have been able to effect an exit through the door without leaving a forensic trace on the door or on the wall. Do we know if the door was dusted for fingerprints?
Mark Williams-Thomas considered the woke and wandered theory; he also considered the comparisons of the disappearance of another little girl which he was able to do without prejudice. Which was something the team leaders of the original investigation were prevented from considering. To do so would have questioned the conviction of Leonor Cipriano for her missing daughter's murder. Many of the investigating officers in Joana's case were also investigating Madeleine's.
Therefore it is wrong to say all avenues were open to investigation from the start if investigation of the connection between both cases was not considered particularly as an experienced professional like MWT thought it relevant to do so.
The team responsible for 'solving' Joana's case could scarcely afford to link her's to Madeleine's disappearance even if only for elimination purposes without prejudice to what had gone before.
How did they know it was secure if they didn't even check if the childrens bedroom window was locked? That's what THEY said. They move the kids into a room and leave them alone at night but don't check if the window is locked. People will believe any old shite.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 20, 2015, 03:08:30 PM
How did they know it was secure if they didn't even check if the childrens bedroom window was locked? That's what THEY said. They move the kids into a room and leave them alone at night but don't check if the window is locked. People will believe any old shite.
The opening mechanism was on the inside. In Britain such shutters are security shutters to prevent broken windows and theft from stores etc. They thought that when down it could could not be raised from the outside.
In that belief it is possible that on a warm night parents might not only have failed to check the window was locked, but might actually have opened it for air, while they sat on the patio enjoying the night.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 20, 2015, 03:39:47 PM
The opening mechanism was on the inside. In Britain such shutters are security shutters to prevent broken windows and theft from stores etc. They thought that when down it could could not be raised from the outside.
In that belief it is possible that on a warm night parents might not only have failed to check the window was locked, but might actually have opened it for air, while they sat on the patio enjoying the night.
The kids room was not on the patio side. There was no need to unlock the window before moving the kids in for the week. They left a few slats open for light but not to check the window at that time is not believable.
"Regarding Madeleine's window he says that he made sure the blinds worked so as to darken the room for the children. On the day of arrival, he does not know if the blinds in Madeleine's room were open or closed. He did not open them again, and does not know if somebody else did."
The kids room was not on the patio side. There was no need to unlock the window before moving the kids in for the week. They left a few slats open for light but not to check the window at that time is not believable.
"Regarding Madeleine's window he says that he made sure the blinds worked so as to darken the room for the children. On the day of arrival, he does not know if the blinds in Madeleine's room were open or closed. He did not open them again, and does not know if somebody else did."
"Regarding the windows, he says they were normally closed, he does not know if they were locked."
Quite ... and as I have said, people unfamiliar with the shutters would assume they were 'security' shutters which when down would mean the premises were secure.
Whereas those with a familiarity would know that the shutters were useless for security purposes unless the interior window was locked.
I refer you to Shining's post http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1620.msg294844#msg294844
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 20, 2015, 05:15:02 PM
Quite ... and as I have said, people unfamiliar with the shutters would assume they were 'security' shutters which when down would mean the premises were secure.
Whereas those with a familiarity would know that the shutters were useless for security purposes unless the interior window was locked.
I refer you to Shining's post http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1620.msg294844#msg294844
No most people would check if the window was locked and secure before leaving their kids there at night when they went out to dine. They knew the shutters could be raised from the inside.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 20, 2015, 08:10:27 PM
The objective of having a lock on a door is to deny non-keyholders or intruders entry to the interior. Therefore, the shutter being down and the front door closed and requiring a key to open it ... the Drs McCann thought the front of the apartment secure from petty thieves. They did not know about the assaults which had been perpetrated on British children in their beds, so that did not enter their thinking. It did not occur to them that an abductor might be on the loose, so didn't give that a moment's thought either.
It is unlikely however that Madeleine would have been able to effect an exit through the door without leaving a forensic trace on the door or on the wall. Do we know if the door was dusted for fingerprints?
Mark Williams-Thomas considered the woke and wandered theory; he also considered the comparisons of the disappearance of another little girl which he was able to do without prejudice. Which was something the team leaders of the original investigation were prevented from considering. To do so would have questioned the conviction of Leonor Cipriano for her missing daughter's murder. Many of the investigating officers in Joana's case were also investigating Madeleine's.
Therefore it is wrong to say all avenues were open to investigation from the start if investigation of the connection between both cases was not considered particularly as an experienced professional like MWT thought it relevant to do so.
The team responsible for 'solving' Joana's case could scarcely afford to link her's to Madeleine's disappearance even if only for elimination purposes without prejudice to what had gone before.
None of that is to the point I was making, the point being that the apartment was left unsecured vis a vis a child being able to get out.(ie reference Tanners statement where they made sure all was locked to ensure the kids could not get out) Then again, we are told by Fiona Payne and others, that the patio door was left unlocked so that Madeleine could get out and find them....so not secure there from anyone or for the children..just slightly confusing tryng to follow your argument here.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Admin on December 20, 2015, 10:07:46 PM
I know it is the season for silliness but be warned, any serious breaches of forum rules will attract an instant ban. There will be no exceptions and no further warning.
Admin
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 21, 2015, 12:16:48 AM
No most people would check if the window was locked and secure before leaving their kids there at night when they went out to dine. They knew the shutters could be raised from the inside.
Most normal parents would do the most elemntary of checks "when leaving their toddlers alone" as if that was a norm anyway....I keep getting told they were "lulled into a false sense of security" which must mean leave your kids alone and all doors and windows insecure...and also go tell any strange tom dick and harry they were left alone.....insane and also insane that anyone should support their behaviours here
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: slartibartfast on December 21, 2015, 07:44:04 AM
Most normal parents would do the most elemntary of checks "when leaving their toddlers alone" as if that was a norm anyway....I keep getting told they were "lulled into a false sense of security" which must mean leave your kids alone and all doors and windows insecure...and also go tell any strange tom dick and harry they were left alone.....insane and also insane that anyone should support their behaviours here
As with all these cases, a triumph of desire over concern.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on December 21, 2015, 10:13:13 AM
Most normal parents would do the most elemntary of checks "when leaving their toddlers alone" as if that was a norm anyway....I keep getting told they were "lulled into a false sense of security" which must mean leave your kids alone and all doors and windows insecure...and also go tell any strange tom dick and harry they were left alone.....insane and also insane that anyone should support their behaviours here
But Mercury - lots of people do not support their 'behaviour' - but at the same time also do not support the idea that the McCanns immediately morphed into a couple psychopathic inhuman monsters who were capable of disposing of their own childs' body - as if she was no more important to them than a bag of rubbish. They also don't believe that their 'behaviour' in some way justifies/excuses another person from entering their apartment and taking their child.
There was a Missing Child protocol in place at that complex. Madeleine was not the first child to go missing - the only difference between her and those other children is that they were found. Do you think all those other parents were 'not normal' because their children went missing as a result of their lack of vigilance - and they had to call out a search party - or is it only the McCanns?
It seems to me that the sceptic rule is:-
If a child goes missing and is found. That's absolutely fine and the parents are not to blame.
If a child goes missing and is not found. Then it's all the parents fault and they should be castigated for letting it happen - for the rest of their lives.
I just don't get that kind of logic.
AIMO
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: faithlilly on December 21, 2015, 10:57:50 AM
But Mercury - lots of people do not support their 'behaviour' - but at the same time also do not support the idea that the McCanns immediately morphed into a couple psychopathic inhuman monsters who were capable of disposing of their own childs' body - as if she was no more important to them than a bag of rubbish. They also don't believe that their 'behaviour' in some way justifies/excuses another person from entering their apartment and taking their child.
There was a Missing Child protocol in place at that complex. Madeleine was not the first child to go missing - the only difference between her and those other children is that they were found. Do you think all those other parents were 'not normal' because their children went missing as a result of their lack of vigilance - and they had to call out a search party - or is it only the McCanns?
It seems to me that the sceptic rule is:-
If a child goes missing and is found. That's absolutely fine and the parents are not to blame.
If a child goes missing and is not found. Then it's all the parents fault and they should be castigated for letting it happen - for the rest of their lives.
I just don't get that kind of logic.
AIMO
I think the difference between this and other missing children is that Madeleine disappeared not through her parents taking their eyes off of her for a few moments but as the result of a set of decisions where their child's comfort and security, it would seem, played very little part.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 21, 2015, 11:07:06 AM
I think the difference between this and other missing children is that Madeleine disappeared not through her parents taking their eyes off of her for a few moments but as the result of a set of decisions where their child's comfort and security, it would seem, played very little part.
I must admit it does make you wonder why all the other thousands of missing children who disappear when there parents take there eyes off them for a few seconds don't get as much attention...it would seem they are not even reported to the police...no mention of them anywhere
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on December 21, 2015, 11:12:52 AM
I think the difference between this and other missing children is that Madeleine disappeared not through her parents taking their eyes off of her for a few moments but as the result of a set of decisions where their child's comfort and security, it would seem, played very little part.
We don't know the circumstances in which other children went missing at the OC but were found - so IMO you are making presumptions which we cannot know are true.
One could be just as critical of UK parents whose children drown every year in swimming pools. What parent would allow their child to wander off - knowing a swimming pool was close by. Isn't that grossly irresponsible?
IMO it all comes down to human error at the end of the day. What I don't understand is why the McCanns are not allowed by sceptics to make human errors - but the rest of us are. Hence that universally known saying ''We all make mistakes''. That makes no sense to me.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 21, 2015, 11:17:58 AM
We don't know the circumstances in which other children went missing at the OC but were found - so IMO you are making presumptions which we cannot know are true.
One could be just as critical of UK parents whose children drown every year in swimming pools. What parent would allow their child to wander off - knowing a swimming pool was close by. Isn't that grossly irresponsible?
IMO it all comes down to human error at the end of the day. What I don't understand is why the McCanns are not allowed by sceptics to make human errors - but the rest of us are. Hence that universally known saying ''We all make mistakes''. That makes no sense to me.
Why should tax payers have to fork out for parents who deliberately left their children by themselves, for 5 nights in a row ?
Why didn't they take responsibility for their own actions and pay for any searches themselves ?
Don't bother referring to the donated money in the fund. That was also other peoples money.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on December 21, 2015, 11:24:30 AM
Why should tax payers have to fork out for parents who deliberately left their children by themselves, for 5 nights in a row ?
Why didn't they take responsibility for their own actions and pay for any searches themselves ?
Don't bother referring to the donated money in the fund. That was also other peoples money.
What has any of that has got to do with the points I was making in my post?
Everyone makes human errors and make errors of judgement - some have tragic results and some don't. Why is it only the McCanns who are excluded from the rest of us in that respect?
(must go out now)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2015, 11:56:50 AM
I think the difference between this and other missing children is that Madeleine disappeared not through her parents taking their eyes off of her for a few moments but as the result of a set of decisions where their child's comfort and security, it would seem, played very little part.
They have also failed to convince a lot of people since that their version of events is correct. Just one example; the moving door. Initially it was said the 'Tannerman abductor' may have been in the apartment at the same time as the father, and it was he who moved the bedroom door. After the father left he moved it again before the friend checked. As Tannerman has been eliminated, who moved that door? Are we supposed to believe that another abductor was there at 9.10pm who moved a door twice and then returned later to pick up a child?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 21, 2015, 01:11:16 PM
They have also failed to convince a lot of people since that their version of events is correct. Just one example; the moving door. Initially it was said the 'Tannerman abductor' may have been in the apartment at the same time as the father, and it was he who moved the bedroom door. After the father left he moved it again before the friend checked. As Tannerman has been eliminated, who moved that door? Are we supposed to believe that another abductor was there at 9.10pm who moved a door twice and then returned later to pick up a child?
yes..the moving door...all the GBP are talking about it
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 21, 2015, 01:23:38 PM
yes..the moving door...all the GBP are talking about it
They probably haven't heard about it. The moving door is not in Gerry's first statement nor entering via the unlocked patio door
"As usual, every half hour and as the restaurant was near, the witness or his wife, would check whether the children were all right. In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left, and bumped into a person he had played tennis with and who had a child's push chair, he was also British, he had a short conversation with him, "returning after that to the restaurant." 4 May
"He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge, he noted that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought strange, having then put together the thought of MADELEINE having got up to go to sleep in his bedroom so as to avoid the noise produced [created] by her siblings. In this way he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact with each of them, checking and is certain of this, that the three were sleeping deeply. He left the children's bedroom returning to place the door how he had already previously described, [then] going to the bathroom. Everything else was normal, the blinds, curtains and windows closed, very dark, there only being the light that came from the lounge. ----- He adds that he never entered any other part of the residence [his bedroom or the kitchen] where he was for only two or three minutes, leaving yet again through the rear door that he closed but did not lock. He clarifies that he returned without seeing the children of any other family because he had not been asked to by them. ----- After going through the side gate, and while on his way to the secondary reception entrance, less than 10 metres from the gate, he saw JEZ coming up the street on the opposite pavement bring with him a baby carriage with his youngest child." 10 May
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2015, 01:29:40 PM
Scoff away, but you can't explain it. No abductor, no moving door unless that helpful wind sucked it open.
"Ajar", "half-open" - we are talking about mere degrees of openness, if it was in any way critical to this case then Kate and Gerry would have been asked about it in their arguido interviews - were they?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 21, 2015, 06:36:14 PM
"Ajar", "half-open" - we are talking about mere degrees of openness, if it was in any way critical to this case then Kate and Gerry would have been asked about it in their arguido interviews - were they?
Would they? Serious question on my part, just to clarify my intent.
If Tannerman was not in the frame in the arguido days, then the door movements require some explanation.
If Tannerman was still in the frame, then we have a potential explanation. But it still needed a bit of probing, surely?
G Unit is correct. If Tannerman is innocent, we need another explanation for reported door movements. It could of course be as simple as Maddie having a trip to the loo. Alternatively, it might have some bearing on what happened.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 21, 2015, 06:37:48 PM
Would they? Serious question on my part, just to clarify my intent.
If Tannerman was not in the frame in the arguido days, then the door movements require some explanation.
If Tannerman was still in the frame, then we have a potential explanation. But it still needed a bit of probing, surely?
G Unit is correct. If Tannerman is innocent, we need another explanation for reported door movements. It could of course be as simple as Maddie having a trip to the loo. Alternatively, it might have some bearing on what happened.
could be maddie having a skip to the loo
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: slartibartfast on December 21, 2015, 06:44:57 PM
Would they? Serious question on my part, just to clarify my intent.
If Tannerman was not in the frame in the arguido days, then the door movements require some explanation.
If Tannerman was still in the frame, then we have a potential explanation. But it still needed a bit of probing, surely?
G Unit is correct. If Tannerman is innocent, we need another explanation for reported door movements. It could of course be as simple as Maddie having a trip to the loo. Alternatively, it might have some bearing on what happened.
I think the only person who could know and explain the differing angles of the door is the person who actually changed the position. If the witnesses whose statements do not seem to be questioned in this instance state 'it wasn't me, guv' and it wasn't the change in pressure caused by one of the doors or the window being opened ... it would seem only the perpetrator can tell, if he or she even remembers it ...
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 21, 2015, 06:57:35 PM
I think the only person who could know and explain the differing angles of the door is the person who actually changed the position. If the witnesses whose statements do not seem to be questioned in this instance state 'it wasn't me, guv' and it wasn't the change in pressure caused by one of the doors or the window being opened ... it would seem only the perpetrator can tell, if he or she even remembers it ...
I wonder who that was? Smithman skipping in and out messing with doors? Opening them between 8.30pm and 9pm, then again between 9.15pm and 9.30pm, and yet again between 9.30pm and 10pm, with a bit of window and shutter opening for good measure. What a busy 'abductor'!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2015, 07:43:33 PM
Would they? Serious question on my part, just to clarify my intent.
If Tannerman was not in the frame in the arguido days, then the door movements require some explanation.
If Tannerman was still in the frame, then we have a potential explanation. But it still needed a bit of probing, surely?
G Unit is correct. If Tannerman is innocent, we need another explanation for reported door movements. It could of course be as simple as Maddie having a trip to the loo. Alternatively, it might have some bearing on what happened.
If Madeleine went to the loo between 8.30pm and 9.05pm she managed to place herself back in bed exactly in the same position as before.
with respect to Madeleine she was in the same position in which he had left her at the beginning of the night. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 21, 2015, 09:48:47 PM
But Mercury - lots of people do not support their 'behaviour' - but at the same time also do not support the idea that the McCanns immediately morphed into a couple psychopathic inhuman monsters who were capable of disposing of their own childs' body - as if she was no more important to them than a bag of rubbish. They also don't believe that their 'behaviour' in some way justifies/excuses another person from entering their apartment and taking their child.
There was a Missing Child protocol in place at that complex. Madeleine was not the first child to go missing - the only difference between her and those other children is that they were found. Do you think all those other parents were 'not normal' because their children went missing as a result of their lack of vigilance - and they had to call out a search party - or is it only the McCanns?
It seems to me that the sceptic rule is:-
If a child goes missing and is found. That's absolutely fine and the parents are not to blame.
If a child goes missing and is not found. Then it's all the parents fault and they should be castigated for letting it happen - for the rest of their lives.
I just don't get that kind of logic.
AIMO
My posts on this seem to be going over your head all the time
There is not much these parents could have done to make it more dangerous for the three toddlers than they already had
It cant be seen as a mistake, or rather the three "mistakes they made" five nights in a row btw, more recklessness IMO
I am not castigating them for their stupidity/blase attitude but saying I cannot correlate it with normal behaviour of parents to their very young children, whether on holiday or not. Bored now, so agree to fundamentally disagree.
Ps if a child goes missing and is not found, you bet the parents are in the suspect line pdq if they were the last to see them. They wouldnt be in that position if a child was found soon after as happens alot of the time. So it is normal and not unusual to look in that direction.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 21, 2015, 10:07:41 PM
I wonder who that was? Smithman skipping in and out messing with doors? Opening them between 8.30pm and 9pm, then again between 9.15pm and 9.30pm, and yet again between 9.30pm and 10pm, with a bit of window and shutter opening for good measure. What a busy 'abductor'!
It IS a bit of a conundrum.....which no one has explained to date....Could one move be a use of the loo (even though you make an excellent point about her going back to bed in exactly the same position as was in before she left it) and the other an abductor? Pity Matt Oldfield took the trouble to go out of his way and actually enter that apartment to check but never actually bothered to do so for some reason.....if he had bothered he might have told us if Madeleine was there or not at 9.30... He did though "wonder where she slept" and actually did bother to LOOK in the parents bedroom for Madeleine but not in her OWN....computer says no on this count for me
&%+((Ł
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on December 22, 2015, 03:59:52 PM
It IS a bit of a conundrum.....which no one has explained to date....Could one move be a use of the loo (even though you make an excellent point about her going back to bed in exactly the same position as was in before she left it) and the other an abductor? Pity Matt Oldfield took the trouble to go out of his way and actually enter that apartment to check but never actually bothered to do so for some reason.....if he had bothered he might have told us if Madeleine was there or not at 9.30... He did though "wonder where she slept" and actually did bother to LOOK in the parents bedroom for Madeleine but not in her OWN....computer says no on this count for me
&%+((Ł
Could be the abductor was in 5a when Gerry came to check.
Matthew Oldfield didn't venture into the room as he obviously in my opinion didn't want to wake the children.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 22, 2015, 11:44:48 PM
Thankfully the little one was recovered safe and well.
If it had not been so ... and she had vanished without trace ... what would have been the situation for the last persons to see her safely tucked up in bed?
Wonder how she got out of the hotel without being spotted.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 27, 2015, 02:17:21 AM
Thankfully the little one was recovered safe and well.
If it had not been so ... and she had vanished without trace ... what would have been the situation for the last persons to see her safely tucked up in bed?
Wonder how she got out of the hotel without being spotted.
Unless they deliberately left their doors open, as the Mccanns did, thereby enabling their toddlers to get out of safety, and half expecting Madeleine to "go find them" if she woke up, they would have no case to answer...vis a vis negligence.....they would still be investigated and interrogated though as the last people to see their child and probably suspected if there was no evidence of an intrusion/abduction...if they changed their statements, their friends change statements or have them changed, specifically go aganst police advice, and bring in media, lawyers and others, that would add to police suspicion, etc etc
There is no comparison between the two cases
@Pegasus, that story also pours doubt on the doubt that Madeleine wandered because her shoes were still in the flat
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 27, 2015, 04:28:01 AM
Unless they deliberately left their doors open, as the Mccanns did, thereby enabling their toddlers to get out of safety, and half expecting Madeleine to "go find them" if she woke up, they would have no case to answer...vis a vis negligence.....they would still be investigated and interrogated though as the last people to see their child and probably suspected if there was no evidence of an intrusion/abduction...if they changed their statements, their friends change statements or have them changed, specifically go aganst police advice, and bring in media, lawyers and others, that would add to police suspicion, etc etc
There is no comparison between the two cases
@Pegasus, that story also pours doubt on the doubt that Madeleine wandered because her shoes were still in the flat
In the Salzberg case the child went outside without shoes. "wearing only a nightshirt and socks"
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 27, 2015, 04:51:28 AM
The 3-year-old got out of her hotel room on Rainer Street, went outside walking in the street, and at about midnight was reported to police to be outside a different hotel, on Markus Sitticus Street. She was wearing diaper, nightdress and socks (no shoes).
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 27, 2015, 10:55:58 AM
Making the comparison between the two cases raises the question of why a child who woke and wandered in the city of Salzberg was safely returned to her family and a child who may have woken and wandered vanished without trace in the sleepy, child friendly holiday village of Luz?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 27, 2015, 01:36:42 PM
A child didn't wake and wander in PDL. She was seen in a deep sleep. Those streets Pegasus posted are very close to each other - only around 100 metres.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on December 27, 2015, 02:20:48 PM
A child didn't wake and wander in PDL. She was seen in a deep sleep. Those streets Pegasus posted are very close to each other - only around 100 metres.
You know that how?
Were you there?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 27, 2015, 09:07:06 PM
In the Salzberg case the child went outside without shoes. "wearing only a nightshirt and socks"
But they went out without shoes. Are you saying that any child waking and wandering would never do so in bare feet? I mentioned it initially because many people have said it is unlikely Madeleine woke and wondered because her shoes/sandals were all in the house. Very young children do either.
Making the comparison between the two cases raises the question of why a child who woke and wandered in the city of Salzberg was safely returned to her family and a child who may have woken and wandered vanished without trace in the sleepy, child friendly holiday village of Luz?
There can only be a few options:
- Child was abducted whilst wandering - malicious - Child was run over accidentally and hidden - not malicious - Child met misfortune somewhere near or further away with no third party involvement and body never found
Feel free to add possiblities
Not sure of the base of MWTs "theory" - I expect the unlocked apartment - but still, only a remote possibility, and very unlikely though imo due to the place being busy and someone seeing a child on their own would have done somethng about it....neither do I subscribe to the pedo on every corner in Praia da Luz as promulgated by some rabid sections of the mccann supporting British media
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2015, 11:25:23 PM
@Mercury. MWT's theory is "I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment. She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar. It was at this point that she was most likely abducted by an opportunistic predatory paedophile." Source: http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
IMO all good except the last line is rubbish. Because if someone saw a small child wandering in the dark they would ensure the child was safe and report to police. Therefore to make MWT theory non-rubbish we need to replace the rubbish last line IMO with "completely disappeared from the face of the earth very soon after leaving the apartment (before being seen by anyone)". I've already posted the remarkable witness statement which might provide a way this could happen.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 29, 2015, 01:20:32 AM
@Mercury. MWT's theory is "I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment. She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar. It was at this point that she was most likely abducted by an opportunistic predatory paedophile." Source: http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
IMO all good except the last line is rubbish. Because if someone saw a small child wandering in the dark they would ensure the child was safe and report to police. Therefore to make MWT theory non-rubbish we need to replace the rubbish last line IMO with "completely disappeared from the face of the earth very soon after leaving the apartment (before being seen by anyone)". I've already posted the remarkable witness statement which might provide a way this could happen.
… after several days of searching. If several days of searching have not produced results, dog teams may be used to eliminate large search areas outside of the original search parameters, or to methodically recheck areas of high probability previously searched by human search teams, particularly if search conditions were less-than-ideal or if it is suspected the subject was moving. Search dogs can detect scent up for several days after the subject went missing, even if the person is deceased.
Scent articles may be useful but are not required Air scenting dogs do not generally require a scent article to search effectively, but in some cases it can assist the dog to discriminate between the subject’s scent and others in the search area, and perhaps pick up the subject’s trail if crossed (10) . http://www.vsrda.org/about-vsrda/using-air-scent-dogs
I found the above link informative, particularly where it was mentioned that one search dog is the equivalent of fifty searchers.
That the GNR dogs followed a trail as far as the car park opposite the tapas restaurant before losing it is something I find intriguing and it certainly ties in with Mark Williams-Thomas's theory. There is an account (on this thread I believe) of them inspecting road works, but no other accounts of them following a definite trail as they appeared to do between the apartment front door, not the patio entrance, and losing it in the car park.
Isabel Duarte the McCann lawyer was dismayed when she discovered that nothing had been followed through on the information provided by these dogs.
Madeleine McCann: The lost clues
CRUCIAL leads that could solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance are revealed today by the Sunday Express.
By JAMES MURRAY PUBLISHED: 00:00, Sun, Apr 29, 2012
These vital clues were never followed up by the Portuguese police, according to Isabel Duarte, the Lisbon lawyer acting for Madeleine’s parents, Kate and Gerry McCann.
Shortly after Madeleine was taken from Apartment 5A at the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz, five years ago this Thursday, a sniffer dog picked up her scent at a nearby car park.
Mrs Duarte said: “This was a significant moment at a critical time, yet there is very little about it in the police files. There doesn’t appear to have been any forensic work at the spot in the car park identified by the dog. More work should have been done.” http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/317111/Madeleine-McCann-The-lost-clues
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on December 29, 2015, 09:09:52 AM
… after several days of searching. If several days of searching have not produced results, dog teams may be used to eliminate large search areas outside of the original search parameters, or to methodically recheck areas of high probability previously searched by human search teams, particularly if search conditions were less-than-ideal or if it is suspected the subject was moving. Search dogs can detect scent up for several days after the subject went missing, even if the person is deceased.
Scent articles may be useful but are not required Air scenting dogs do not generally require a scent article to search effectively, but in some cases it can assist the dog to discriminate between the subject’s scent and others in the search area, and perhaps pick up the subject’s trail if crossed (10) . http://www.vsrda.org/about-vsrda/using-air-scent-dogs
I found the above link informative, particularly where it was mentioned that one search dog is the equivalent of fifty searchers.
That the GNR dogs followed a trail as far as the car park opposite the tapas restaurant before losing it is something I find intriguing and it certainly ties in with Mark Williams-Thomas's theory. There is an account (on this thread I believe) of them inspecting road works, but no other accounts of them following a definite trail as they appeared to do between the apartment front door, not the patio entrance, and losing it in the car park. Isabel Duarte the McCann lawyer was dismayed when she discovered that nothing had been followed through on the information provided by these dogs.
Was she?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: faithlilly on December 29, 2015, 11:21:14 AM
Is asking for a cite proving someone's dismay really more relevant to you & G-Unit than the absence of a forensic report on the car park in Block 6?
There was definitely a case for trying to pin down which vehicles were parked there by questioning witnesses living in the apartments around and those pedestrians passing and passing through in the run up to Madeleine's disappearance being discovered.
Members of staff parking there may have noticed a vehicle parked in the spot at the lamp post near where the trail was lost.
I think Mr and Mrs Moyes may have passed the car park on their route home? they certainly would have had sight from their balcony.
Why no public appeal for information? the secrecy law would not have applied if a waiver had been asked for.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on December 29, 2015, 07:11:44 PM
Is asking for a cite proving someone's dismay really more relevant to you & G-Unit than the absence of a forensic report on the car park in Block 6?
Just reminding people of the custom of providing references for quotes, that's all misty.
Perhaps the forensics people ought to have done a search on their hands and knees from the front door of 5A, across the car park, down between the blocks, along the length of the path, across the road and all over the car park? Really? Looking for what exactly?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on December 29, 2015, 07:18:14 PM
Just reminding people of the custom of providing references for quotes, that's all misty.
Perhaps the forensics people ought to have done a search on their hands and knees from the front door of 5A, across the car park, down between the blocks, along the length of the path, across the road and all over the car park? Really? Looking for what exactly?
That missing piece of the jigsaw, of course. With that, everything immediately falls into place.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 29, 2015, 07:28:18 PM
Who knows what a police search on hands and knees will produce ~ it is called a 'fingertip search' I believe ~ but if the diligence is ignored the one certainty is ... nothing will be found particularly not that annoying jigsaw piece.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on December 29, 2015, 07:32:30 PM
That missing piece of the jigsaw, of course. With that, everything immediately falls into place.
In the UK, what do you suppose the officers are doing when, in regimented lines, they search routes in the vicinity of a crime & retrieve any objects alien to the scene,eg, matches, cigarette butts, buttons?
ETA, Well done, Brietta, you beat me to it!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on December 29, 2015, 07:36:09 PM
In the UK, what do you suppose the officers are doing when, in regimented lines, they search routes in the vicinity of a crime & retrieve any objects alien to the scene,eg, matches, cigarette butts, buttons?
ETA, Well done, Brietta, you beat me to it!
I was spoiled for choice, Misty, as you know there aren't hundreds of examples of officers doing their jobs ~ there are thousands.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on December 29, 2015, 07:50:44 PM
I was spoiled for choice, Misty, as you know there aren't hundreds of examples of officers doing their jobs ~ there are thousands.
I re-watched some of those videos John posted in November. There is one of RM being followed by camera crew through pathways in OC back to Casa Liliana. It struck me that, if Madeleine had gone wandering in that direction, how easily she would have got lost in the dark & how difficult it would have been to find her. Google Earth doesn't show us all those little pathways and the access into all the other properties in the vicinity.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on December 30, 2015, 03:30:55 AM
I re-watched some of those videos John posted in November. There is one of RM being followed by camera crew through pathways in OC back to Casa Liliana. It struck me that, if Madeleine had gone wandering in that direction, how easily she would have got lost in the dark & how difficult it would have been to find her. Google Earth doesn't show us all those little pathways and the access into all the other properties in the vicinity.
Yes that case in Austria shows how easily a small child can get lost on the streets in the dark. And when the police showed the child all the nearby hotel entrances the child did not recognise her own hotel.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 30, 2015, 05:07:12 AM
I re-watched some of those videos John posted in November. There is one of RM being followed by camera crew through pathways in OC back to Casa Liliana. It struck me that, if Madeleine had gone wandering in that direction, how easily she would have got lost in the dark & how difficult it would have been to find her. Google Earth doesn't show us all those little pathways and the access into all the other properties in the vicinity.
Why would Madelene ever go wondering in the direction of Murats house? Kids go to where they know and and or like, looking for someone/something they need/want....or are you still thinking Murat was involved!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on December 30, 2015, 01:03:34 PM
Why would Madelene ever go wondering in the direction of Murats house? Kids go to where they know and and or like, looking for someone/something they need/want....or are you still thinking Murat was involved!
The pathways I was referring to are close to the shortcut past Block 6 (ie, very near Casa Liliana) from 5a to Madeleine's day crčche at OC - somewhere she was familiar with & associated with friendly adults. If you watch the video, you will appreciate the difficulties of wandering/searching that area in the dark. The pathways are featured in some footage of RM. Quite why you wish to insinuate I have an ulterior agenda in referring to it merely reflects your own prejudice.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 30, 2015, 01:23:13 PM
The pathways I was referring to are close to the shortcut past Block 6 (ie, very near Casa Liliana) from 5a to Madeleine's day crčche at OC - somewhere she was familiar with & associated with friendly adults. If you watch the video, you will appreciate the difficulties of wandering/searching that area in the dark. The pathways are featured in some footage of RM.
I have been down that and it is OK in the day, but I didn't check it re lighting, so another visit may be in order.
Meanwhile, here's the pathway that leads from Rua Martins to the front of Baptista. You can see from the garden walls that is has a fairly gentle downward slope. There's more of this on "Foot Luz" at ShiningInLuz for anyone interested.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on December 30, 2015, 07:11:32 PM
Would this area have been searched in daylight as well?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 30, 2015, 07:13:58 PM
The pathways I was referring to are close to the shortcut past Block 6 (ie, very near Casa Liliana) from 5a to Madeleine's day crčche at OC - somewhere she was familiar with & associated with friendly adults. If you watch the video, you will appreciate the difficulties of wandering/searching that area in the dark. The pathways are featured in some footage of RM. Quite why you wish to insinuate I have an ulterior agenda in referring to it merely reflects your own prejudice.
Why would she go wondering towards her day creche? In the dark? Did she thnk her parents mght be there? If anywhere, unkess she was a sleepwalker, she will have gone to the tapas bar area.
Ok,I did assume something out of your post, which wasnt there, as you say, not such a gigantic leap though considering you have posted suspicions about the mans involvement in the past. So you have my apologies.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on December 30, 2015, 07:34:18 PM
Why would she go wondering towards her day creche? In the dark? Did she thnk her parents mght be there? If anywhere, unkess she was a sleepwalker, she will have gone to the tapas bar area.
Ok,I did assume something out of your post, which wasnt there, as you say, not such a gigantic leap though considering you have posted suspicions about the mans involvement in the past. So you have my apologies.
" Kids go to where they know and and or like, looking for someone/something they need/want..." That's what you said.
Where did Madeleine spend a good part of her day? Who would she look for if she couldn't find her parents? There is no evidence Madeleine even knew her parents were at the Tapas Bar. It is possible Madeleine opened that window & shutter herself to look out onto the car park. It is possible that Madeleine exited the apartment via the front door (I recall a previous occupant said it opened easily when on the single lock). It is possible that Madeleine wandered along, past Block 4, to the end & then doubled back (as per the S&R dogs route). It is possible she then crossed the road to take the short cut to the crčche.....but as to what happened next and why...... But. of course, you know I don't believe it happened that way. Too many other anomalies.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 30, 2015, 07:42:31 PM
Ok, two things
1) would Madeleine think the day creche was open at night? 2) kate mccanns friends stated kate left the patio door open so that if she woke up she could go find them which implies Madeleine would know where to go/she had been told where they were
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on December 30, 2015, 07:49:47 PM
1) would Madeleine think the day creche was open at night? 2) kate mccanns friends stated kate keft the patio door open so that f she woke up she coukdgo fnd them which implies Madeleine would know where to go/she had been told where they were
The only thing I know for sure is that the thought process of a 3/4 year old can be totally unpredictable, whatever they have been told by their parents. Where on earth was that little girl going when she left the hotel in Austria? Her mum was still in the apartment.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: slartibartfast on December 30, 2015, 07:52:19 PM
The only thing I know for sure is that the thought process of a 3/4 year old can be totally unpredictable, whatever they have been told by their parents. Where on earth was that little girl going when she left the hotel in Austria? Her mum was still in the apartment.
Very true. If I remember correctly a child who wandered a few years ago was going out for ice cream.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 30, 2015, 07:59:03 PM
The only thing I know for sure is that the thought process of a 3/4 year old can be totally unpredictable, whatever they have been told by their parents. Where on earth was that little girl going when she left the hotel in Austria? Her mum was still in the apartment.
I have no idea..just from experience and others stories, I know kids who leave their house go towards somewhere they want to be very much...I suppose this avenue if the woke and wondered theory is correct will remain an unknown
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on December 30, 2015, 09:11:58 PM
I have no idea..just from experience and others stories, I know kids who leave their house go towards somewhere they want to be very much...I suppose this avenue if the woke and wondered theory is correct will remain an unknown
Sometimes children go away from something, even if it's a trivial something. Two children were picked up in our town a few years ago after being spotted on CCTV at 0200. They were only young (about 7 and 4) and had decided to run away after being told off. They even had potatoes in their backpacks to make a meal. The parents were fast asleep and oblivious when the police returned them.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on December 30, 2015, 09:33:31 PM
Sometimes children go away from something, even if it's a trivial something. Two children were picked up in our town a few years ago after being spotted on CCTV at 0200. They were only young (about 7 and 4) and had decided to run away after being told off. They even had potatoes in their backpacks to make a meal. The parents were fast asleep and oblivious when the police returned them.
A possible
Still you have to totally ignore the cadaver dog alerts for this wandering theory
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on January 01, 2016, 04:31:49 AM
@Merc, IMO if the wandering theory is correct, it would be to go away from a danger (interrupted attempted entry via window) AND to go towards safety (parents).
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 01, 2016, 11:37:24 AM
Do you know how many checks were performed that night but no sign of a wandering or calling child? People coming to and leaving the tapas bar at different times. That was a busy area and somebody must be dumb to even attempt an abduction that night. And guess what? There's no evidence of any of it happening. Only the prime suspect that looks similar to one who saw the child last. Now that is real evidence worth following not hocus pocus.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 01, 2016, 11:46:21 AM
Do you know how many checks were performed that night but no sign of a wandering or calling child? People coming to and leaving the tapas bar at different times. That was a busy area and somebody must be dumb to even attempt an abduction that night. And guess what? There's no evidence of any of it happening. Only the prime suspect that looks similar to one who saw the child last. Now that is real evidence worth following not hocus pocus.
probably why SY are concentrating on abduction
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 01, 2016, 12:00:56 PM
by using "more than probably" he is stating opinion as fact
Sounds more like an opinion stated as an opinion to me. Unlike your statement that 'SY are concentrating on abduction'.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on January 01, 2016, 09:06:30 PM
"Probably" means something different in two different scenarios
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on January 02, 2016, 04:41:39 AM
At a junction near the apartment and supermarket. I wonder if SY ever reinterviewed the "manhole with cover removed then replaced" witness to get its exact location?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on January 10, 2016, 08:38:15 PM
Thanks for that Heri. I remember seeing a very similar TV prog made in a park in the USA years ago. A puppy was also used as bait in that scenario. IIRC only one of the half a dozen children approached by the 'stranger' ran back to his/her parent.
Chilling stuff.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on January 10, 2016, 10:05:51 PM
Madeleine was said to know not to go with strangers by her relatves
Indeed Kate said in some tv interview she was very aware of danger/had a sense for it even though she was very young
So is this the latest theory? She woke wandered and went with a man with a puppy/any other incentive? in the dark? At night?And that overtook her desire to find her parents?
Eta to add nterview, around 10.55
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on January 10, 2016, 10:12:39 PM
Thanks for that Heri. I remember seeing a very similar TV prog made in a park in the USA years ago. A puppy was also used as bait in that scenario. IIRC only one of the half a dozen children approached by the 'stranger' ran back to his/her parent.
Chilling stuff.
My blood ran cold watching that ... and it only took seconds.
Mark Williams-Thomas gave consideration to all possible theories regarding Madeleine McCann's disappearance ... in particular he thought that the Cipriano and McCann cases may be linked. Obviously a step too far for the co-ordinator of both cases to consider that possibility.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on January 13, 2016, 02:01:19 PM
This sad case proves that even a two-year-old child is capable of leaving a house alone- http://www.itv.com/news/2016-01-13/toddler-found-walking-to-nursery-leads-police-to-her-mothers-body/
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on January 13, 2016, 02:07:44 PM
This sad case proves that even a two-year-old child is capable of leaving a house alone- http://www.itv.com/news/2016-01-13/toddler-found-walking-to-nursery-leads-police-to-her-mothers-body/
That's just awful, poor little mite. No-one is immune from such unforeseen events. Interesting that the child headed for her nursery, though.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on January 13, 2016, 07:06:36 PM
GNR dog path suggests started heading toward lobsters but then changed mind cross back over road towards kids tea area?
I don't know, Pegasus. If she was fleeing the monster at the open window, I don't think she'd have doubled back on herself. Hidden. maybe. I'm not convinced by the GNR or S&R dogs' tracking results as I don't believe they were following Madeleine's scent.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on January 14, 2016, 01:23:03 AM
IMO we need to look at lots of solutions Misty, including ones based on GNR dogs and the last bit of Morgan statement.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on January 14, 2016, 01:31:05 AM
IMO we need to look at lots of solutions Misty, including ones based on GNR dogs and the last bit of Morgan statement.
Wasnt the route followed by the dogs the same route Madekeine followed a few days earlier? Around the apartments, over to the car park towards day creche and back to tapas tea area after?
Why would a woke and wondered child go to their day nursery at night instead of the tapas bar where she must have known her parents were, when Km tells us she left the patio door open so Madeleine could go find them if she woke up?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on January 14, 2016, 01:55:20 AM
Wasnt the route followed by the dogs the same route Madekeine followed a few days earlier? Around the apartments, over to the car park towards day creche and back to tapas tea area after?
Why would a woke and wondered child go to their day nursery at night instead of the tapas bar where she must have known her parents were, when Km tells us she left the patio door open so Madeleine could go find them if she woke up?
Problem is, Mercury, the dogs didn't follow the compete route to the crčche, either by the short cut or the longer path. They didn't follow a route to the side gate or the front door either. I cannot see that the cadaver dogs walked the routes to the crčche - anyone help on that?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on January 14, 2016, 02:16:18 AM
Problem is, Mercury, the dogs didn't follow the compete route to the crčche, either by the short cut or the longer path. They didn't follow a route to the side gate or the front door either. I cannot see that the cadaver dogs walked the routes to the crčche - anyone help on that?
I don't know except to speculate the scent dogs followed the strongest scent available which was a walking child on her daily route
Why would the cadaver dog follow the route to the creche?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on January 14, 2016, 02:20:59 AM
IMO we need to look at lots of solutions Misty, including ones based on GNR dogs and the last bit of Morgan statement.
I agree. That's undoubtedly what SY/PJ have been doing for the last 3 years. However, the silence since the last round of interviews combined with an apparent lack of ground interest in & around 5a for the last 12 months speaks for itself. They are not looking for a body in a manhole.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on January 14, 2016, 02:32:02 AM
IMO there has been a "lack of ground interest in & around 5a" for about 8 years Misty. All those photos of drain inspections by OG were at sites distant from apartment - none were near the apartment.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 14, 2016, 12:31:19 PM
I don't know, Pegasus. If she was fleeing the monster at the open window, I don't think she'd have doubled back on herself. Hidden. maybe. I'm not convinced by the GNR or S&R dogs' tracking results as I don't believe they were following Madeleine's scent.
Madeleine crossed the road from that car park and entered the tapas area at 5pm on 3 May. She left the entrance at around 5:30pm and took the pathway back to apartment 5A.
That after having given the sniffer dog the towel and next to the residence of the missing girl, more specifically, next to apartment block 5A and 5, the first sniffer dog headed toward the door of that apartment. Immediately afterward, he headed in the direction of block 4, returned around block 5, and came down a road that exists between this block and the leisure area (pools, restaurants, etc). He turned right; in the direction of the aforementioned apartment and headed toward the main road. There, he crossed the street and next to the wall of block 6, turned right, and headed toward the contiguous parking area. More concretely, he headed next to a light post and sniffed the ground around that post. After this, he crossed the street again and headed toward the access zone to the restaurants and pool area, sniffing the door which was closed at that time. He again went to the parking zone, and at that point, lost the scent. (Antonio Silva 1st Sergeant GNR)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 14, 2016, 12:49:42 PM
Not remotely the fault of the GNR dog-handlers.
But their dogs didn't have the ability to track an individual scent from an item given to them to sniff.
We've been through all this.
Ad nauseam ....
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 14, 2016, 01:00:47 PM
But their dogs didn't have the ability to track an individual scent from an item given to them to sniff.
We've been through all this.
Ad nauseam ....
[ moderated ]
"He comes to the process in the role of Chief of the GNR Search and Rescue Team. He coordinated all the work carried out by the two sniffer dogs in the Luz zone and the immediate areas relating to the disappearance of the English minor Madeleine McCann from the Ocean Club. " Witness Statement of Antonio Silva
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on January 14, 2016, 11:47:17 PM
(snip) She left the entrance at around 5:30pm and took the pathway back to apartment 5A.
That is on wrong side of road compared with GNR dog track.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on January 15, 2016, 01:22:35 AM
Handler statement "crossed the street and next to the wall of block 6, turned right" Wouldn't an adult cross diagonally? Who would cross perpendicularly?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on January 15, 2016, 02:29:24 AM
Handler statement "crossed the street and next to the wall of block 6, turned right" Wouldn't an adult cross diagonally? Who would cross perpendicularly?
That part is confusing, Pegasus. Surely to turn right, the dog + handler must have been walking UP RdM?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 15, 2016, 11:37:23 AM
That part is confusing, Pegasus. Surely to turn right, the dog + handler must have been walking UP RdM?
It is not confusing - cross over the road from the lane and turn right to car park i.e. Madeleine's route to the creche. Notice how the sign post is opposite the entrance where the dog found her scent. They cross over there when they go for tea at 5pm. A dog also crossed over there from the post to the entrance which proves to me that the dogs tracked her scent IMO.
"He comes to the process in the role of Chief of the GNR Search and Rescue Team. He coordinated all the work carried out by the two sniffer dogs in the Luz zone and the immediate areas relating to the disappearance of the English minor Madeleine McCann from the Ocean Club. " Witness Statement of Antonio Silva
Quote
The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs.
Mark Harrison.
Air-scenting dogs track the generic human scent, not the individual and unique one.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 15, 2016, 01:25:19 PM
Dog teams will try to avoid other searchers While air-scenting dogs will discriminate between other searchers and the missing person (4) , they are trained to find “anyone” in the assigned search area, including members of ground search teams, family members trying to help and other hikers. It is therefore preferable, but by no means essential, to assign dog teams to areas thought to be empty except perhaps for the subject. While it helps if others have not been in a search area before the dogs, a dog team can be sent in once 15 minutes has elapsed from other search teams vacating the area, no matter how many people were previously there. If other searchers cannot be avoided, try at least to keep them downwind of the dogs.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on January 15, 2016, 02:10:29 PM
Air-scenting dogs track the generic human scent, not the individual and unique one.
Harrison was outlining the weekor so searches with dogs around PDL. I dont think the same type of dogs were used to trace the child's movements from 5a.
At about 23.00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team).
After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 15, 2016, 03:00:02 PM
Harrison was outlining the weekor so searches with dogs around PDL. I dont think the same type of dogs were used to trace the child's movements from 5a.
At about 23.00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team).
After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine.
I can't be bothered to find it again, but I have done before.
Somewhere in the GNR dog-handler report is an account of a debate the handlers had about whether it would actually be worth giving the dogs something of Madeleine's to sniff to see whether they could pick up her scent and track it.
The mere fact of that debate illustrates that these were not dogs trained to track the individual and unique scent.
Dogs trained to do that can't work any other way.
So the debate would not have been necessary.
They were right to try.
But the attempt was always doomed to fail.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2016, 03:40:21 PM
That part is confusing, Pegasus. Surely to turn right, the dog + handler must have been walking UP RdM?
I have always taken the coloured diagram of the route as correct, but having looked at the statements my opinion now is that the dog emerged from the pathway between the apartments and the Tapas area and turned left towards the main road at the top. Then he crossed over and turned right. So he went up the street, then crossed over and came back down again towards the parking area. He then sniffed around the base of a lamp post, of which there are two; one almost opposite the pathway and one opposite the Tapas entrance.
It says; voltando a esquerda which roughly means 'back left', not right. Right is direita, which is what he did when he reached Block 6 after crossing the road. substitute 'left' for 'right' below and it makes sense.
He turned right; in the direction of the aforementioned apartment and headed toward the main road. There, he crossed the street and next to the wall of block 6, turned right, and headed toward the contiguous parking area. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P3/03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_763.jpg
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 15, 2016, 03:51:30 PM
Quote
At about 23.00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team).
After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine.
(GNR dog-handler report)
What would be the point of search-and-rescue dogs trained to track an individual and unique scent?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2016, 04:22:56 PM
Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team)
they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Officer Fernandez. however, tells us he was given a towel;
On the 4th of May of the current year, around 22H30, he was asked to use the dogs in conjunction with a search that attempted to retrace the steps taken by the missing minor. His role was to use the dogs' skills by allowing them to sniff a towel which had supposedly been used by the minor in question. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
If was these two tracker dogs who took the route described (left from apartment, left to passageway, left up the road then right twoards the parking area etc.)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on January 15, 2016, 04:35:30 PM
I can't be bothered to find it again, but I have done before.
Somewhere in the GNR dog-handler report is an account of a debate the handlers had about whether it would actually be worth giving the dogs something of Madeleine's to sniff to see whether they could pick up her scent and track it.
The mere fact of that debate illustrates that these were not dogs trained to track the individual and unique scent.
Dogs trained to do that can't work any other way.
So the debate would not have been necessary.
They were right to try.
But the attempt was always doomed to fail.
The discussion was about the ability to track when days had passed
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
2nd entry
Indeed, the police differentiated in that report between search and rescue dogs and tracker dogs.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 15, 2016, 04:44:31 PM
Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team)
they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Officer Fernandez. however, tells us he was given a towel;
On the 4th of May of the current year, around 22H30, he was asked to use the dogs in conjunction with a search that attempted to retrace the steps taken by the missing minor. His role was to use the dogs' skills by allowing them to sniff a towel which had supposedly been used by the minor in question. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
If was these two tracker dogs who took the route described (left from apartment, left to passageway, left up the road then right twoards the parking area etc.)
Correct, they brought in a second team of more specialised scenting dogs after the ordinary tracker dogs had been deployed.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on January 15, 2016, 04:57:26 PM
I have always taken the coloured diagram of the route as correct, but having looked at the statements my opinion now is that the dog emerged from the pathway between the apartments and the Tapas area and turned left towards the main road at the top. Then he crossed over and turned right. So he went up the street, then crossed over and came back down again towards the parking area. He then sniffed around the base of a lamp post, of which there are two; one almost opposite the pathway and one opposite the Tapas entrance.
It says; voltando a esquerda which roughly means 'back left', not right. Right is direita, which is what he did when he reached Block 6 after crossing the road. substitute 'left' for 'right' below and it makes sense.
He turned right; in the direction of the aforementioned apartment and headed toward the main road. There, he crossed the street and next to the wall of block 6, turned right, and headed toward the contiguous parking area. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P3/03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_763.jpg
Thank you so much for that, G-Unit. I think it may be necessary to re-translate the whole statement. It is possible that everyone has been looking at the wrong car park & lamppost. I wonder who drew the diagram showing the path of the dogs?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on January 15, 2016, 05:19:40 PM
I can't be bothered to find it again, but I have done before.
Somewhere in the GNR dog-handler report is an account of a debate the handlers had about whether it would actually be worth giving the dogs something of Madeleine's to sniff to see whether they could pick up her scent and track it.
The mere fact of that debate illustrates that these were not dogs trained to track the individual and unique scent.
Dogs trained to do that can't work any other way.
So the debate would not have been necessary.
They were right to try.
But the attempt was always doomed to fail.
I think everyone is agreed that the GNR dog teams covered a lot of ground and did an excellent job; but is there a report of their searches being used by the Amaral investigation?
I can only see requests for information from the Rebelo investigation.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2016, 05:28:39 PM
Thank you so much for that, G-Unit. I think it may be necessary to re-translate the whole statement. It is possible that everyone has been looking at the wrong car park & lamppost. I wonder who drew the diagram showing the path of the dogs?
The UK media. I always assumed it was from the files somewhere. It shows the dogs as entering the car park, but the officer's statement doesn't actually say that. Here is a shot showing the two lampposts;
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 15, 2016, 06:22:28 PM
Rex and Zarus were the dogs identified as from the tracking team, which (yes, tracking is supposed to be of the individual and unique scent).
And yet ...
Quote
At about 23.00 accompanied by a PJ inspector, the searches were begun. After Rex was given the girl's clothing to sniff, he began to search on the ground floor of block 5 and when he passed the door of apartment 5 A (the place the girl had disappeared from) according to his handler, officer Fernandes, the dog altered its behaviour, sniffing with greater intensity than he had done before. Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time. Afterwards, the same kind of search was carried out using the dog Zarus which in general terms showed the same behaviour in the same places as Rex had done.
It was only when all the searches of the apartments in blocks 4 and 5 were complete, that the behaviour described above was registered. It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in, but given that these types of dogs manage to discriminate a specific odour from others, although it could be a remote possibility that they related the odour of the missing girl with a possible location where she could have been.
I think Mark Harrison knew what he was talking about when he said the Portuguese deployed air-scenting dogs ...
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2016, 06:25:22 PM
I thought we were supposed to provide references to base our allegations on? I found something where he refers to air-scenting dogs, and he's right. The searches he is describing were carried out using the search and rescue dogs. He isn't describing the searches carried out by Fernandes and his tracking dogs though. I await your cite showing where he mentions those searches.
The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2016, 06:52:00 PM
I thought we were supposed to provide references to base our allegations on? I found something where he refers to air-scenting dogs, and he's right. The searches he is describing were carried out using the search and rescue dogs. He isn't describing the searches carried out by Fernandes and his tracking dogs though. I await your cite showing where he mentions those searches.
The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
it seem the current instruction from the mods is you must look it up yourself
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 15, 2016, 06:58:08 PM
I thought we were supposed to provide references to base our allegations on? I found something where he refers to air-scenting dogs, and he's right. The searches he is describing were carried out using the search and rescue dogs. He isn't describing the searches carried out by Fernandes and his tracking dogs though. I await your cite showing where he mentions those searches.
The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Quote
At about 23.00 accompanied by a PJ inspector, the searches were begun. After Rex was given the girl's clothing to sniff, he began to search on the ground floor of block 5 and when he passed the door of apartment 5 A (the place the girl had disappeared from) according to his handler, officer Fernandes, the dog altered its behaviour, sniffing with greater intensity than he had done before. Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time. Afterwards, the same kind of search was carried out using the dog Zarus which in general terms showed the same behaviour in the same places as Rex had done.
It was only when all the searches of the apartments in blocks 4 and 5 were complete, that the behaviour described above was registered. It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in, but given that these types of dogs manage to discriminate a specific odour from others, although it could be a remote possibility that they related the odour of the missing girl with a possible location where she could have been.
Summary: these are dogs capable of being trained in tracking. They were not trained in tracking. They were pressed into service as tracker dogs.
They experimented.
Their only other option was to give up.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 15, 2016, 07:15:09 PM
Rex and Zarus can track individual target scent and within the first 24 hours is best. They are used to searching in open areas not residential.
Fernandes – Dog: Rex/ Zarus 4 May 2007
At about 23h00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team).
After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine.
Beginning to follow the track using Rex, from the door of apartment 5 A (the place where the girl had been sleeping) he would always head in the direction of Block 4, leaving block 5 the dog would turn to the left, pass by a metal access door to a path existing between the apartments blocks to the leisure area (restaurant, pool and playground). Immediately another attempt at reconstruction was made using the dog Zarus, who, in general terms, ended up following the same route as Rex and having the same behaviour.
It is important to state that this tracking work was carried out in an urban area and more than 24 hours after the girl's disappearance and numerous persons had passed along the path the dogs were tracking. It should also be stated that the path the dogs followed within the resort was practically totally surrounded by walls and the concentration of odours was stronger as they were protected from the wind. The searches finished at about 01h30.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on January 15, 2016, 07:24:49 PM
The UK media. I always assumed it was from the files somewhere. It shows the dogs as entering the car park, but the officer's statement doesn't actually say that. Here is a shot showing the two lampposts;
I don't think it changes things dramatically though. I also don't think it changes which car park it was where the dogs lost interest.
I think that could have been quite dramatic had it been the parking area of Block 6. Jane Tanner did not watch to see where the man she saw was going simply because she didn't think it suspicious at the time. So his destination could have been to his parked vehicle.
The newspaper graphic is lazy (although not as inaccurate as the first one printed) ... just showing the route cutting straight across the road from the lane then to the car park. It is clearly stated in the files that one of the dogs cut back across the road to the tapas door before returning to the area of the car park where he lost interest.
The graphic doesn't touch on that. Just as it doesn't show the turn to the left as far as the lamppost prior to turning right and heading back down the road.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on January 15, 2016, 07:27:16 PM
Summary: these are dogs capable of being trained in tracking. They were not trained in tracking. They were pressed into service as tracker dogs.
They experimented.
Their only other option was to give up.
Still nothing from Mark Harrison then? The same report you have quoted also says;
On 10th May at about 20.10, upon the request of the PJ, searches were carried out in all of the apartments belonging to blocks 4 and 5 of the OC, two tracker dogs and two search and rescue dogs being used for this operation http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Search and Rescue dogs come in two kinds; air scenting and tracking. More here;
Still nothing from Mark Harrison then? The same report you have quoted also says;
On 10th May at about 20.10, upon the request of the PJ, searches were carried out in all of the apartments belonging to blocks 4 and 5 of the OC, two tracker dogs and two search and rescue dogs being used for this operation http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Search and Rescue dogs come in two kinds; air scenting and tracking. More here;
Please could you give it again? I can't find it. 8(8-))
Quote
The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs.
(Mark Harrison)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 15, 2016, 08:01:05 PM
Rex and Zarus can track individual target scent and within the first 24 hours is best. They are used to searching in open areas not residential.
Where did you get that from, please?
"It is important to state that this tracking work was carried out in an urban area and more than 24 hours after the girl's disappearance."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id258.html
I would like to clarify that a search in a bad area, where a more intense odour perceived by the sniffer dog, such as in an urban area due to the large concentration of external odours, make it possible to confuse the dog. In this situation, search activity is very difficult as is the case when some time has passed since the event in question.
"It is important to state that this tracking work was carried out in an urban area and more than 24 hours after the girl's disappearance."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id258.html
I would like to clarify that a search in a bad area, where a more intense odour perceived by the sniffer dog, such as in an urban area due to the large concentration of external odours, make it possible to confuse the dog. In this situation, search activity is very difficult as is the case when some time has passed since the event in question.
They wouldn't have been given her blanket if they couldn't do it *&*%Ł
Quote
It was only when all the searches of the apartments in blocks 4 and 5 were complete, that the behaviour described above was registered. It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in, but given that these types of dogs manage to discriminate a specific odour from others, although it could be a remote possibility that they related the odour of the missing girl with a possible location where she could have been.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2016, 08:53:17 PM
I don't think it changes things dramatically though. I also don't think it changes which car park it was where the dogs lost interest.
I think that could have been quite dramatic had it been the parking area of Block 6. Jane Tanner did not watch to see where the man she saw was going simply because she didn't think it suspicious at the time. So his destination could have been to his parked vehicle.
The newspaper graphic is lazy (although not as inaccurate as the first one printed) ... just showing the route cutting straight across the road from the lane then to the car park. It is clearly stated in the files that one of the dogs cut back across the road to the tapas door before returning to the area of the car park where he lost interest.
The graphic doesn't touch on that. Just as it doesn't show the turn to the left as far as the lamppost prior to turning right and heading back down the road.
It is actually from the files, I was wrong, but it doesn't give the true picture according to what the handler said. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MAPS_PJ.htm#p3p829
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 15, 2016, 08:56:06 PM
It was only when all the searches of the apartments in blocks 4 and 5 were complete, that the behaviour described above was registered. It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in, but given that these types of dogs manage to discriminate a specific odour from others, although it could be a remote possibility that they related the odour of the missing girl with a possible location where she could have been.
I'm talking about tracking on the 4th May. You are talking about another search - searching apartments on a later date and yes of course it's not the tracking dogs normal working conditions.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2016, 09:00:52 PM
I'm talking about tracking on the 4th May. You are talking about another search - searching apartments on a later date and yes of course it's not the tracking dogs normal working conditions.
The search report says blanket for the 4th, but that was given for the second apartment searches later. The towel was used on 4th. Harrison was talkng about the outside searches not the searches of the apartments at all.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 15, 2016, 09:01:35 PM
I'm talking areal-scent dogs Zarus and Rex, pressed into service as "tracker" dogs, which they were not.
What are you talking about?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 15, 2016, 09:08:04 PM
I'm talking areal-scent dogs Zarus and Rex, pressed into service as "tracker" dogs, which they were not.
What are you talking about?
At about 23.00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team).
After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 15, 2016, 09:10:11 PM
At about 23.00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team).
After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Seemingly unlike you, yes ....
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on January 15, 2016, 09:12:46 PM
Context Ferryman, not cherrypicking. The writer of this report does not say Rex is not a tracking dog. He says searchng a bunch of apartments is not usual or within the training of this tracker dog.
***
On 7th May the same searches were continued, being extended to to the entire northern part of Almadena to the site of Espojeiro and the verges of the EN125 until the Boi valley.
At about 19.. the undersigned officer, accompanied by the Commander, Officer Silva, took part in a meetings with the PJ Directorate, being asked by the PJ about the viability of giving the girl's clothes to the dogs for the dogs to sniff again, and if by means of the odour inhaled, they would be able to mark an identical odour in one of the resort apartments even though its door was closed.
With regard to this task, Officer Silva referred to the fact that the time that had passed would be a crucial condition for the dogs' work in obtaining results and that the entirety of the human odours existing in the apartments and access paths could make the dogs' searches very difficult. However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and not directed towards one but to all the apartments in the resort, it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned.
In this concrete situation, the objective would be for the dogs to carry out a discontinuous search, in other words, to sniff the girl's clothes and immediately search near to the apartments, checking to see if there was any change in the behaviour of the dogs.
At about 23.00 accompanied by a PJ inspector, the searches were begun. After Rex was given the girl's clothing to sniff, [he began to search on the ground floor of block 5 and when he passed the door of apartment 5 A (the place the girl had disappeared from) according to his handler, officer Fernandes, the dog altered its behaviour, sniffing with greater intensity than he had done before. Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time. Afterwards, the same kind of search was carried out using the dog Zarus which in general terms showed the same behaviour in the same places as Rex had done.
It was only when all the searches of the apartments in blocks 4 and 5 were complete, that the behaviour described above was registered. It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in, but given that these types of dogs manage to discriminate a specific odour from others, although it could be a remote possibility that they related the odour of the missing girl with a possible location where she could have been.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Page 3517
ergo not a generic human scent
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 15, 2016, 09:31:35 PM
Context Ferryman, not cherrypicking. The writer of this report does not say Rex is not a tracking dog. He says searchng a bunch of apartments is not usual or within the training of this tracker dog.
***
On 7th May the same searches were continued, being extended to to the entire northern part of Almadena to the site of Espojeiro and the verges of the EN125 until the Boi valley.
At about 19.. the undersigned officer, accompanied by the Commander, Officer Silva, took part in a meetings with the PJ Directorate, being asked by the PJ about the viability of giving the girl's clothes to the dogs for the dogs to sniff again, and if by means of the odour inhaled, they would be able to mark an identical odour in one of the resort apartments even though its door was closed.
With regard to this task, Officer Silva referred to the fact that the time that had passed would be a crucial condition for the dogs' work in obtaining results and that the entirety of the human odours existing in the apartments and access paths could make the dogs' searches very difficult. However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and not directed towards one but to all the apartments in the resort, it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned.
In this concrete situation, the objective would be for the dogs to carry out a discontinuous search, in other words, to sniff the girl's clothes and immediately search near to the apartments, checking to see if there was any change in the behaviour of the dogs.
At about 23.00 accompanied by a PJ inspector, the searches were begun. After Rex was given the girl's clothing to sniff, [he began to search on the ground floor of block 5 and when he passed the door of apartment 5 A (the place the girl had disappeared from) according to his handler, officer Fernandes, the dog altered its behaviour, sniffing with greater intensity than he had done before. Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time. Afterwards, the same kind of search was carried out using the dog Zarus which in general terms showed the same behaviour in the same places as Rex had done.
It was only when all the searches of the apartments in blocks 4 and 5 were complete, that the behaviour described above was registered. It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in, but given that these types of dogs manage to discriminate a specific odour from others, although it could be a remote possibility that they related the odour of the missing girl with a possible location where she could have been.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Page 3517
ergo not a generic human scent
Thank you for finding that; indeed, what I was looking for.
Ally it to this:
Quote
It was only when all the searches of the apartments in blocks 4 and 5 were complete, that the behaviour described above was registered. It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in, but given that these types of dogs manage to discriminate a specific odour from others, although it could be a remote possibility that they related the odour of the missing girl with a possible location where she could have been.
Not sure how there could be any other conclusion than that dogs were pressed into a role not naturally theirs ...
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on January 15, 2016, 09:40:08 PM
Thank you for finding that; indeed, what I was looking for.
Ally it to this:
Not sure how there could be any other conclusion than that dogs were pressed into a role not naturally theirs ...
Youre welcome
The role they were pressed into, just in case something worked, time was almost run out, if not already, was getting them around a bunch of apartments which is not how tracking dogs work./were trained..ie they follow rather than be led, thats what was not normal, thats what they meant..it seems a stab at anything that might have led to a clue or a discovery was worth it, however "remote" the word actually being used too
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on January 15, 2016, 10:35:56 PM
The role they were pressed into, just in case something worked, time was almost run out, if not already, was getting them around a bunch of apartments which is not how tracking dogs work./were trained..ie they follow rather than be led, thats what was not normal, thats what they meant..it seems a stab at anything that might have led to a clue or a discovery was worth it, however "remote" the word actually being used too
Which was exactly the right thing to do with them in the absence of any other leads, although from what I have read I think the presence of a lot of people might have been a distraction as far as confusing their noses went.
I think the searches the teams carried out in the environs of Luz would have discovered Madeleine had she been hastily hidden from view.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on January 15, 2016, 11:01:25 PM
Which was exactly the right thing to do with them in the absence of any other leads, although from what I have read I think the presence of a lot of people might have been a distraction as far as confusing their noses went.
I think the searches the teams carried out in the environs of Luz would have discovered Madeleine had she been hastily hidden from view.
The first use of the tracker dogs around 24 hours later did not go anywhere near other apartments..if they were good at their job it was the correct path they trailed...to the car park..whether that path was a normal one madeleine will have taken or something abnormal is anyones guess....the dogs used days later around adjoining apartments sniffing food probably means just and only that IMO
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 16, 2016, 07:55:35 PM
Which was exactly the right thing to do with them in the absence of any other leads, although from what I have read I think the presence of a lot of people might have been a distraction as far as confusing their noses went.
I think the searches the teams carried out in the environs of Luz would have discovered Madeleine had she been hastily hidden from view.
One of the few interesting points I learnt from Heidie Ho's otherwise ghastly videos is that dogs have an ability, much more advanced than humans, to differentiate and distinguish between a variety of conflicting scents, and to focus on a particular and narrow scent that they have been primed to detect.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 20, 2016, 09:19:23 PM
Which was exactly the right thing to do with them in the absence of any other leads, although from what I have read I think the presence of a lot of people might have been a distraction as far as confusing their noses went.
I think the searches the teams carried out in the environs of Luz would have discovered Madeleine had she been hastily hidden from view.
All the way to Malta, Spain, Australia and the middle east where sighting were not taken seriosly by PJ OR co ordinator Amaral? If Maddie stayed a while out of view in Luz, she must have been moved around?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on January 20, 2016, 09:24:57 PM
All the way to Malta, Spain, Australia and the middle east where sighting were not taken seriosly by PJ OR co ordinator Amaral? If Maddie stayed a while out of view in Luz, she must have been moved around?
Why were the PJ or the co-ordinator Amaral ... who can probably be considered the same entity as far as your post is concerned ... so absolutely and utterly convinced that Madeleine McCann was dead?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 20, 2016, 10:12:27 PM
Why were the PJ or the co-ordinator Amaral ... who can probably be considered the same entity as far as your post is concerned ... so absolutely and utterly convinced that Madeleine McCann was dead?
Reply to red font,
Probably because she did not turn up alive after a search? when she was reported 'missing' not abducted. And then the wild goose chase, and abuse of PJ, and interferance from UK Government, UK press oh and ever changing time lines, and parents strange behaviour... but then again...dare I mention the d.gs? argh sorry.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: sadie on January 21, 2016, 12:21:20 AM
Why were the PJ or the co-ordinator Amaral ... who can probably be considered the same entity as far as your post is concerned ... so absolutely and utterly convinced that Madeleine McCann was dead?
Probably because she did not turn up alive after a search? when she was reported 'missing' not abducted.
So that made Amaral absolutely and utterly convinced that Madeleine was dead? Cor blimey! Were they supposed to do the PJ's job for them and insist , at that stage in the bewilderment of the moment, that Madeleine was abducted?
Immediately they arrived, the police were told about Tannerman carrying a little girl at the pertinent time. Suppose that that fact didn't sink in? Didn't ring any bells in the PJ or Amarals brain?
And then the wild goose chase, and abuse of PJ, and interferance from UK Government, UK press oh and ever changing time lines, and parents strange behaviour
The wild goose chase? Abuse of the PJ? The Mccanns were being regularly abused ... swingers etc. Info, and false at that, was being leaked to the media in PT and the PT media was dissipating it.
It was rumoured at the time that our friend Paulo Christavao, (Amarals mate) was working for the one "red top" and dishing it out. Please correct me if this rumour was incorrrect.
... but then again...dare I mention the d.gs? argh sorry.
You would be a fool if you did. If they have been following this forum, anyone with half a brain cell now knows that the dogs along with forensics showed nothing, nowt, nada, zilch.
Soz, Mistaken, but you're mistaken again
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on January 21, 2016, 12:39:36 AM
So that made Amaral absolutely and utterly convinced that Madeleine was dead? Cor blimey! Were they supposed to do the PJ's job for them and insist , at that stage in the bewilderment of the moment, that Madeleine was abducted?
Immediately they arrived, the police were told about Tannerman carrying a little girl at the pertinent time. Suppose that that fact didn't sink in? Didn't ring any bells in the PJ or Amarals brain?
Hey! Great detective work. %56& The wild goose chase? Abuse of the PJ? The Mccanns were being regularly abused ... swingers etc. Info, and false at that, was being leaked to the media in PT and the PT media was dissipating it.
It was rumoured at the time that our friend Paulo Christavao, (Amarals mate) was working for the one "red top" and dishing it out. Please correct me if this rumour was incorrrect.
You would be a fool if you did. If they have been following this forum, anyone with half a brain cell now knows that the dogs along with forensics showed nothing, nowt, nada, zilch.
Soz, Mistaken, but you're mistaken again
As usual, Sadie, you are spot on with the Christovao connection ...
Good to have you back.
**Snip Another of the senior officers who is now an arguido is the recently retired Chief Inspector Paulo Pereira Cristovao. He is one of the McCanns' principal scourges – not as a detective, but in his new capacity as a columnist for Diario de Noticias, among the most active of Portuguese newspapers in its pursuit of stories about Madeleine derived from leaks. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-482007/Lies-beatings-secret-trials-dark-police-handling-Madeleine-case.html#ixzz3xpnLFK3k
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on January 21, 2016, 07:56:39 AM
As usual, Sadie, you are spot on with the Christovao connection ...
Good to have you back.
**Snip Another of the senior officers who is now an arguido is the recently retired Chief Inspector Paulo Pereira Cristovao. He is one of the McCanns' principal scourges – not as a detective, but in his new capacity as a columnist for Diario de Noticias, among the most active of Portuguese newspapers in its pursuit of stories about Madeleine derived from leaks. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-482007/Lies-beatings-secret-trials-dark-police-handling-Madeleine-case.html#ixzz3xpnLFK3k
That is an excellent article, Brietta. I had forgotten about it. Thanks for digging it out.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 21, 2016, 11:26:25 AM
So that made Amaral absolutely and utterly convinced that Madeleine was dead? Cor blimey! Were they supposed to do the PJ's job for them and insist , at that stage in the bewilderment of the moment, that Madeleine was abducted?
Immediately they arrived, the police were told about Tannerman carrying a little girl at the pertinent time. Suppose that that fact didn't sink in? Didn't ring any bells in the PJ or Amarals brain?
Hey! Great detective work. %56& The wild goose chase? Abuse of the PJ? The Mccanns were being regularly abused ... swingers etc. Info, and false at that, was being leaked to the media in PT and the PT media was dissipating it.
It was rumoured at the time that our friend Paulo Christavao, (Amarals mate) was working for the one "red top" and dishing it out. Please correct me if this rumour was incorrrect.
You would be a fool if you did. If they have been following this forum, anyone with half a brain cell now knows that the dogs along with forensics showed nothing, nowt, nada, zilch.
Soz, Mistaken, but you're mistaken again
"Immediately they arrived, the police were told about Tannerman carrying a little girl at the pertinent time. Suppose that that fact didn't sink in? Didn't ring any bells in the PJ or Amarals brain?"
I have been unable to work out, with any degree of precision, when Jane Tanner told the police, and whether she told the GNR or the PJ.
While you were away, the forum has pieced together enough information to make me feel reasonably confident that the earliest the GNR could have arrived at apartment 5A was around 11:20pm.
I don't know precisely what they did, but I doubt Jane Tanner was priority #1 upon arrival. I believe they searched the house, I ASSUME they would have talked further with Gerry and/or Kate.
I cannot see them getting round to Jane Tanner, or other members of the Tapas group until those activities had been completed, and someone must have radioed the circumstances back to the Lagos GNR station to get the station commander to come out. I would have thought that would have occurred after the apartment search, the talk to the parents, and before the GNR moved on to talking to other members of the Tapas group, but that is of course an assumption.
We do not appear to know when Jane Tanner passed on her information, other than it was that night, and nailing a time for that would be a step forward.
I can't see any evidence that when dogs first turned up they were taken in the direction Tannerman took, so either the information did not reach them, or they did not think it a profitable line of enquiry.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 21, 2016, 11:51:19 AM
"Immediately they arrived, the police were told about Tannerman carrying a little girl at the pertinent time. Suppose that that fact didn't sink in? Didn't ring any bells in the PJ or Amarals brain?"
I have been unable to work out, with any degree of precision, when Jane Tanner told the police, and whether she told the GNR or the PJ.
While you were away, the forum has pieced together enough information to make me feel reasonably confident that the earliest the GNR could have arrived at apartment 5A was around 11:20pm.
I don't know precisely what they did, but I doubt Jane Tanner was priority #1 upon arrival. I believe they searched the house, I ASSUME they would have talked further with Gerry and/or Kate.
I cannot see them getting round to Jane Tanner, or other members of the Tapas group until those activities had been completed, and someone must have radioed the circumstances back to the Lagos GNR station to get the station commander to come out. I would have thought that would have occurred after the apartment search, the talk to the parents, and before the GNR moved on to talking to other members of the Tapas group, but that is of course an assumption.
We do not appear to know when Jane Tanner passed on her information, other than it was that night, and nailing a time for that would be a step forward.
I can't see any evidence that when dogs first turned up they were taken in the direction Tannerman took, so either the information did not reach them, or they did not think it a profitable line of enquiry.
According to Russell;
there were two members of the PJ had arrived........................ then turning round to me writing the timeline and saying ‘That’s what we want’........................... At some point Jane came in, I think because Jane was in with our kids at this point, I didn’t hang around too, you know, too long and I went out, but Jane came in I think to give a brief statement to the, the, the PJ on the night...............I think at some stage whilst I was writing this, (the timeline) the PJ were very keen to talk to Gerry then I left and I think then Jane came in, so I think this is something that was actually being written at about a point where I left it with the Police and then Jane was, Jane and Gerry were talking to the PJ”. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
I have seen something in his statements to say he wrote the timeline at about 2-3am on 4th, but can't find it just now.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on January 24, 2016, 03:06:31 AM
@ShiningInLuz At the soonest opportunity after the 1st GNR team Roque and Costa arrived at and searched the apartment, JT told officer Roque what she had seen.
"After the search of the interior, his colleague (Costa) went to check the area around the apartments and the Tapas Bar, while the witness (Roque) remained next the apartment, just outside it. At that moment a female individual, he does not know whether she was a member of the group of friends, who was in the neighbouring apartment, said that she saw an individual carrying a child"
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on January 24, 2016, 08:25:54 AM
@ShiningInLuz At the soonest opportunity after the 1st GNR team Roque and Costa arrived at and searched the apartment, JT told officer Roque what she had seen.
"After the search of the interior, his colleague (Costa) went to check the area around the apartments and the Tapas Bar, while the witness (Roque) remained next the apartment, just outside it. At that moment a female individual, he does not know whether she was a member of the group of friends, who was in the neighbouring apartment, said that she saw an individual carrying a child"
So in effect, Jane Tanner informed the authorities of her sighting of an individual carrying a child in the vicinity of the apartment, at the earliest possible opportunity.
One wonders when the information was passed up the line and how much cognisance was taken of it.
The continuation of the idea that Madeleine woke and wandered carried on for some time into the investigation suggesting that this witness statement wasn't considered with the urgency it might have commanded in a different jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 24, 2016, 09:37:55 AM
@ShiningInLuz At the soonest opportunity after the 1st GNR team Roque and Costa arrived at and searched the apartment, JT told officer Roque what she had seen.
"After the search of the interior, his colleague (Costa) went to check the area around the apartments and the Tapas Bar, while the witness (Roque) remained next the apartment, just outside it. At that moment a female individual, he does not know whether she was a member of the group of friends, who was in the neighbouring apartment, said that she saw an individual carrying a child"
I am not on this forum to score points or push my view of what happened. I find the forum fairly balanced and in the main trying to ascertain accurately the details of what occurred.
So when person X says Z happened, and I had not worked that out before, I am more than happy to be illuminated (shining) or corrected. For me, that is a step forward. For me, that is better than before.
Thank you for your illumination. We now have Jane telling the GNR (not the PJ, but simply the first response team) well before the PJ arrived.
A small point which is extremely important.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2016, 10:01:53 AM
JT rog:
4078 “Who else did you speak to?”
Reply “I’m trying to think of the order, it was sort of like, it was Rachael first, then it was Fi and I can’t remember when Russell and Matt came back, they came back at, erm, tut, I don’t know whether they came back first or I told them or who else was there, but as soon, the Police, when the Police came, I know Rachael went straight away to get them to say, so that I could tell the GNR, I think, yeah, the GNR, what I’d seen, but I don’t know if I told anybody else, I can’t remember when people like Sylvie, who was the translator, I’m not sure when she arrived whether it was before the Police arrived or after the Police arrived or whenever, but”.
4078 “But you told the Police when they came?”
Reply “Yeah, when they arrived Rachael I think went and got the GNR and I told the GNR chap and then when the PJ actually arrived they came and got me to go and talk to the, the PJ”.
4078 “Were you able to then show them sort of in real terms where you had seen the man by actually physically taking them and showing them?”
Reply “No, they didn’t, they didn’t take me, the only time I ever showed them where I saw it is when (inaudible), but the chap on the stairs here again, brought me back in the middle of the night from, erm, erm, from doing the sketch, so this was like the second, the night after, so this was quite late...
Silvia Batista:
At some point she translated the statement of one of the ladies who belonged to the group and that she describes as a brunette one. This lady said to the GNR elements, and she (the witness) translated, that she had seen a man on the road who might have carried a child. This situation surprised her because she (the witness) was convinced that when the lady saw the man, the lady was in a place from where she had no angle of vision for the place where she saw the man. She doesn't know exactly what was the position of the lady when she saw the man, but she knows that the lady said she saw the man in the street in front of the Madeleine's bedroom window, walking in the direction of the street that then leads to the Baptista supermarket.
A bit of lost-in-confusion / translation that night?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: faithlilly on January 24, 2016, 10:32:16 AM
As usual, Sadie, you are spot on with the Christovao connection ...
Good to have you back.
**Snip Another of the senior officers who is now an arguido is the recently retired Chief Inspector Paulo Pereira Cristovao. He is one of the McCanns' principal scourges – not as a detective, but in his new capacity as a columnist for Diario de Noticias, among the most active of Portuguese newspapers in its pursuit of stories about Madeleine derived from leaks. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-482007/Lies-beatings-secret-trials-dark-police-handling-Madeleine-case.html#ixzz3xpnLFK3k
Thank you Brietta.
So we have two arguidos Amaral and Cristavao reputedly working together again as they did on the Joana Cipriano case. [ETA} But with Joana they were both employed by the PJ. With Madeleines case, Cristavao was employed as a columnist for Diario de Noticias, and also with another red top, the name of which I forget
Both Chief Inspectors, friends and both accused in the torture trial of Leonor Cipriano
Amaral is now a criminal have committed perjury Cristavao was charged as one of the torturers but because Leonor had a bag over her head she was unable to verify that he was one of the torturers. At present, he is being charged with a number of dreadful criminal offenses, but of course he must be cnsidered innocent of those until proven guilty.
Both men seem to have been relieved of their positions with the PJ. If I am wrong please tell me with cites.
Both men made mega bucks writing the background "stories" of their trials. Cristavao writing about both Joana and Madeleine and Amaral writing about Madeleine.
And I wonder, only wonder, if one of the reasons for writing the books, apart from money, was to put out propaganda against Joanas mother Leonor, and against The Mccanns, thus strengthening their own respective positions by weakening the positions of Leonor and The Mccanns.
I repeat that I only wonder this. Is there any evidence for or against this do you think?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on January 26, 2016, 02:52:49 AM
@Sadie so exactly how much are you insinuating about your two authors?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on January 26, 2016, 02:55:07 AM
If the GNR dogs are right, how could someone disappear between the lamppost and the reception door?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 26, 2016, 10:02:08 AM
If the GNR dogs are right, how could someone disappear between the lamppost and the reception door?
We don't know who they were tracking. The towel they were given could have been used by more than one person. What if Gerald used it for his ablutions after Madeleine was dried on it? Part of the route followed by the dogs matches his route. Cross over to speak to Wilkins by Block 6, walk down towards the Tapas complex, cross over the road again and enter.
The mystery is why they turned left out of the front door. I don't believe the McCanns ever took that route with the children. Gerry told a story of Madeleine and the twins running away in that direction one day, but he mentioned that after the dogs took that route.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on January 28, 2016, 04:15:54 AM
We don't know who they were tracking. The towel they were given could have been used by more than one person. What if Gerald used it for his ablutions after Madeleine was dried on it? Part of the route followed by the dogs matches his route. Cross over to speak to Wilkins by Block 6, walk down towards the Tapas complex, cross over the road again and enter.
The mystery is why they turned left out of the front door. I don't believe the McCanns ever took that route with the children. Gerry told a story of Madeleine and the twins running away in that direction one day, but he mentioned that after the dogs took that route.
The route followed by the GNR dogs is going between blocks 5 and 4. The route described by GM is different, it goes around the west end of block 4 through 4Fgarden IMO. Very different.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2016, 10:09:57 AM
The route followed by the GNR dogs is going between blocks 5 and 4. The route described by GM is different, it goes around the west end of block 4 through 4Fgarden IMO. Very different.
It all depends who they were tracking. Five people had baths or showers. Were there five individual bath towels? We don't know.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 28, 2016, 10:27:41 AM
How many more times?
The GNR dogs were not trained to track the individual human scent.
They were air-scenting dogs. Harrison said so in his report.
For that search, ground-scenting dogs were needed.
Those GNR handlers didn't have them.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2016, 10:53:11 AM
It all depends who they were tracking. Five people had baths or showers. Were there five individual bath towels? We don't know.
I'm not sure whether the blanket and the "towel" were two separate items, or whether whichever GNR officer it was simply assumed that a rectangular, soft piece of cloth was a towel.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2016, 11:18:25 AM
All humans have their own unique odour and when given an item with that same odour dogs will track it.
I don't think there's anything unusual about the dogs tracking except Madeleine's pink princess blanket went missing. Kate had CC at the church but not her pink blanket. I find that unusual!
I've yet to see the McCanns responding to Amaral's theory about the pink blanket and proving it wrong because here is the blanket Gonc! Kate would love to do it if she could. Hopefully SY can do it. Feel the fear @)(++(*
"I could see Madeleine now, with her pink princess blanket over her head, the corners pulled together under her chin like a headscarf, singing ‘If I was a girl like you . . .’"
Those are lyrics from which song? "If I was a girl like you" &%+((Ł
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 28, 2016, 11:23:31 AM
All humans have their own unique odour and when given an item with that same odour dogs will track it.
I don't think there's anything unusual about the dogs tracking except Madeleine's pink princess blanket went missing. Kate had CC at the church but not her pink blanket. I find that unusual!
I've yet to see the McCanns responding to Amaral's theory about the pink blanket and proving it wrong because here is the blanket Gonc! Kate would love to do it if she could. Hopefully SY can do it. Feel the fear @)(++(*
"I could see Madeleine now, with her pink princess blanket over her head, the corners pulled together under her chin like a headscarf, singing ‘If I was a girl like you . . .’"
Those are lyrics from which song? "If I was a girl like you" &%+((Ł
How many times have we been through this.
It's all in the files.
The Portuguese had air-scenting dogs.
The handlers had a debate about whether or not to give the dogs something of Madeleine's to sniff, to see whether they could pick up her scent.
That discussion would not have been necessary if they had had ground-scenting dogs (of the type that track the individual and unique scent.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2016, 11:27:32 AM
The route followed by the GNR dogs is going between blocks 5 and 4. The route described by GM is different, it goes around the west end of block 4 through 4Fgarden IMO. Very different.
It's going to the left which is interesting. They never did that and Kate has never mentioned the running away incident.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 28, 2016, 01:32:43 PM
On 7th May the same searches were continued, being extended to to the entire northern part of Almadena to the site of Espojeiro and the verges of the EN125 until the Boi valley.
At about 19.. the undersigned officer, accompanied by the Commander, Officer Silva, took part in a meetings with the PJ Directorate, being asked by the PJ about the viability of giving the girl's clothes to the dogs for the dogs to sniff again, and if by means of the odour inhaled, they would be able to mark an identical odour in one of the resort apartments even though its door was closed.
With regard to this task, Officer Silva referred to the fact that the time that had passed would be a crucial condition for the dogs' work in obtaining results and that the entirety of the human odours existing in the apartments and access paths could make the dogs' searches very difficult. However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and not directed towards one but to all the apartments in the resort, it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned.
In this concrete situation, the objective would be for the dogs to carry out a discontinuous search, in other words, to sniff the girl's clothes and immediately search near to the apartments, checking to see if there was any change in the behaviour of the dogs.
At about 23.00 accompanied by a PJ inspector, the searches were begun. After Rex was given the girl's clothing to sniff, [he began to search on the ground floor of block 5 and when he passed the door of apartment 5 A (the place the girl had disappeared from) according to his handler, officer Fernandes, the dog altered its behaviour, sniffing with greater intensity than he had done before. Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time. Afterwards, the same kind of search was carried out using the dog Zarus which in general terms showed the same behaviour in the same places as Rex had done.
It was only when all the searches of the apartments in blocks 4 and 5 were complete, that the behaviour described above was registered. It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in, but given that these types of dogs manage to discriminate a specific odour from others, although it could be a remote possibility that they related the odour of the missing girl with a possible location where she could have been.
Ally that to Mark Harrison's comment that the GNR deployed air-scenting dogs (of the type that search the generic human scent, not the individual and unique one.
Harrison knew what he was talking about ....
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2016, 02:00:38 PM
You have proved again that you don't know what you're going on about. Thank you.
Officer Silva referred to the fact that the time that had passed would be a crucial condition for the dogs' work in obtaining results and that the entirety of the human odours existing in the apartments and access paths could make the dogs' searches very difficult. However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 28, 2016, 02:05:44 PM
You have proved again that you don't know what you're going on about. Thank you.
Officer Silva referred to the fact that the time that had passed would be a crucial condition for the dogs' work in obtaining results and that the entirety of the human odours existing in the apartments and access paths could make the dogs' searches very difficult. However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible.
It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in, but given that these types of dogs manage to discriminate a specific odour from others, although it could be a remote possibility that they related the odour of the missing girl with a possible location where she could have been.
Mangle, misconstrue or misinterpret that any way you want.
There is only one (semantically correct!) meaning to the words.
The dog was of a breed that can be trained to track the individual and unique scent.
But it hadn't been.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2016, 02:08:28 PM
Tracking dogs track human scent. When given a blanket there job is to track that scent. There was a lot of human scents in that pathway and apartments so it is hard for the dog to track with so many scents after 24 hours. It is not their usual area being out tracking a lost person through fields and open country. Not at a MW holiday resort apartment block @)(++(*
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 28, 2016, 02:12:22 PM
Tracking dogs track human scent. When given a blanket there job is to track that scent. There was a lot of human scents in that pathway and apartments so it is hard for the dog to track with so many scents after 24 hours. It is not their usual area being out tracking a lost person through fields and open country. Not at a MW holiday resort apartment block @)(++(*
It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in ...
Read, and inwardly digest ....
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2016, 03:17:25 PM
It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in ...
Read, and inwardly digest ....
Most of the quotes you are using are from the report by Luis Manuel Goncalves Sequeira, the Major in charge of all the searching. If you read Officer Fernandes' statement some of the details differ. Fernandes never had a blanket or any clothes belonging to the child, just a bath towel.
Officer Fernandes handled the dogs. Twice. The first time was on 4th May, the second time on 7th May. Each time they sniffed a towel which had (allegedly) been used by Madeleine. On the 4th the dogs went left from the front door of G5A, went through the path between blocks 4 and 5 and returned along the pathway etc.
he states that it can be confirmed with a certain degree of certainty that the missing minor passed that location, on the day of the events or before that date. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
So whoever used that towel had passed that location. On 7th, using the same towel, the dogs searched inside the apartments. They showed interest in G5A, G5H, G5J and the G4 apartment which the McCanns had moved into. Afterwards they went outside and followed the same track as on the 4th.
I'm not convinced that the dogs were following Madeleine's scent from that towel. If they were, why were they interested in the apartment in block 4, where she never went?
Officer Fernandes' dogs were tracker dogs, not search and rescue dogs.
Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Tracking is a technique in which dogs are trained to locate certain objects by using the object's scent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracking_(dog)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 28, 2016, 03:22:48 PM
Most of the quotes you are using are from the report by Luis Manuel Goncalves Sequeira, the Major in charge of all the searching. If you read Officer Fernandes' statement some of the details differ. Fernandes never had a blanket or any clothes belonging to the child, just a bath towel.
Officer Fernandes handled the dogs. Twice. The first time was on 4th May, the second time on 7th May. Each time they sniffed a towel which had (allegedly) been used by Madeleine. On the 4th the dogs went left from the front door of G5A, went through the path between blocks 4 and 5 and returned along the pathway etc.
he states that it can be confirmed with a certain degree of certainty that the missing minor passed that location, on the day of the events or before that date. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
So whoever used that towel had passed that location. On 7th, using the same towel, the dogs searched inside the apartments. They showed interest in G5A, G5H, G5J and the G4 apartment which the McCanns had moved into. Afterwards they went outside and followed the same track as on the 4th.
I'm not convinced that the dogs were following Madeleine's scent from that towel. If they were, why were they interested in the apartment in block 4, where she never went?
Officer Fernandes' dogs were tracker dogs, not search and rescue dogs.
Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Tracking is a technique in which dogs are trained to locate certain objects by using the object's scent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracking_(dog)
The dogs (used by the GNR dog-handlers to try to find Madeleine) weren't trained to track the individual and unique scent.
They were not suitable for the type of search asked of them in that operation.
That is what my quote says.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2016, 03:43:11 PM
8)><( No goading in stating the obvious that tracking dogs i.e. Rex and Zarus can track individual human scent and that's why they were given Madeleine's blanket.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2016, 04:02:56 PM
Being guilty of it myself, I make no criticism of posters for repeating verbatim what is posted on the internet. However it is a mistake as we have found out on many different occasions.
Mrs Fenn's statement for example is not in her words ... it is a translation of a translation (how many times and how accurately?) ... hearsay, really. Her signature is appended to a document in Portuguese, a language she did not read or speak.
The GNR dogs did an heroic amount of work in areas they were trained in and areas they were not ... the handlers thought it was worth a try in the absence of the availability anything else in their eagerness to locate the child ... but it didn't stop them warning to the effect of "don't get your hopes up!". That was because the dogs were trained on generic not individual human scent and the handlers knew their capabilities.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 28, 2016, 04:25:20 PM
Being guilty of it myself, I make no criticism of posters for repeating verbatim what is posted on the internet. However it is a mistake as we have found out on many different occasions.
Mrs Fenn's statement for example is not in her words ... it is a translation of a translation (how many times and how accurately?) ... hearsay, really. Her signature is appended to a document in Portuguese, a language she did not read or speak.
The GNR dogs did an heroic amount of work in areas they were trained in and areas they were not ... the handlers thought it was worth a try in the absence of the availability anything else in their eagerness to locate the child ... but it didn't stop them warning to the effect of "don't get your hopes up!". That was because the dogs were trained on generic not individual human scent and the handlers knew their capabilities.
Flawless summary ...
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2016, 04:48:53 PM
The dogs (used by the GNR dog-handlers to try to find Madeleine) weren't trained to track the individual and unique scent.
They were not suitable for the type of search asked of them in that operation.
That is what my quote says.
Perhaps you should read all the statements, not just the one you prefer?
At about 23.00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team). http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
It is said that the tracker dogs were given a blanket and then clothes to sniff, but this is contradicted by the dog handlers (Fernandes and Freitas) who I believe would know. They refer only to a bath towel being provided.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 28, 2016, 04:52:50 PM
Perhaps you should read all the statements, not just the one you prefer?
At about 23.00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team). http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
It is said that the tracker dogs were given a blanket and then clothes to sniff, but this is contradicted by the dog handlers (Fernandes and Freitas) who I believe would know. They refer only to a bath towel being provided.
Read Carana's post number 913 in this thread ....
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2016, 05:19:29 PM
Possibly because you're wrong. The quote is from the report by the person below who was not a dog handler, he was a GNR Major in charge of all the searches. Were you deliberately trying to mislead people or just mistaken, I wonder?
Signed 30 November 2007 Operation Commander Major Sequeira
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2016, 08:24:31 PM
equipa de pistagem Translate from Portuguese Team Tracking
busco e salvamento Translate from Portuguese seek and rescue
Thanks G. I can't believe posters don't know what tracking dogs do.
"The members of the GNR advised that the tracker dogs are trained to search mainly in rural areas, given the fact that the best capability of the animal is to identify a different and strong smell in a wide, open area."
Thanks G. I can't believe posters don't know what tracking dogs do.
"The members of the GNR advised that the tracker dogs are trained to search mainly in rural areas, given the fact that the best capability of the animal is to identify a different and strong smell in a wide, open area."
Thanks G. I can't believe posters don't know what tracking dogs do.
"The members of the GNR advised that the tracker dogs are trained to search mainly in rural areas, given the fact that the best capability of the animal is to identify a different and strong smell in a wide, open area."
It's like pulling teeth. First they weren't tracker dogs. Then they might be but weren't trained for the work (of tracking?). Then they were search and rescue (wrongly translated).
Remember, according to the handlers they never got a blanket or any clothes, just a bath towel which may or may not have been used by Madeleine alone.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 28, 2016, 09:12:56 PM
It's like pulling teeth. First they weren't tracker dogs. Then they might be but weren't trained for the work (of tracking?). Then they were search and rescue (wrongly translated).
Remember, according to the handlers they never got a blanket or any clothes, just a bath towel which may or may not have been used by Madeleine alone.
It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs [Rex and Zarus] were trained in, ...
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2016, 09:23:54 PM
equipa de pistagem Translate from Portuguese Team Tracking
busco e salvamento Translate from Portuguese seek and rescue
I'm aware of the difference between the two. However, there isn't enough information to know what specific training the "pistagem" ones had to distinguish between the various subcategories.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2016, 09:25:53 PM
It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs [Rex and Zarus] were trained in, ...
That is explained in the files but you claim tracking dogs can't follow individual human scent which is incorrect.
"The members of the GNR advised that the tracker dogs are trained to search mainly in rural areas, given the fact that the best capability of the animal is to identify a different and strong smell in a wide, open area."
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2016, 09:32:59 PM
I'm aware of the difference between the two. However, there isn't enough information to know what specific training the "pistagem" ones had to distinguish between the various subcategories.
It is there in the files. You don't need to know anything except that the two dogs were tracker dogs which, surprise surprise, track! Tracking means they track a specific scent. Search and rescue dogs look for any person.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 28, 2016, 09:48:55 PM
I'm aware of the difference between the two. However, there isn't enough information to know what specific training the "pistagem" ones had to distinguish between the various subcategories.
I would argue that (in the files!) there is.
Mark Harrison's reference is the clincher.
The Portuguese handlers had aerial-scenting dogs (of the type that track the generic human scent) ...
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2016, 09:58:45 PM
The Portuguese handlers had aerial-scenting dogs (of the type that track the generic human scent) ...
Yes, I agree with you.
Harrison: The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2016, 10:01:14 PM
That is explained in the files but you claim tracking dogs can't follow individual human scent which is incorrect.
"The members of the GNR advised that the tracker dogs are trained to search mainly in rural areas, given the fact that the best capability of the animal is to identify a different and strong smell in a wide, open area."
You don't understand the difference between 'claims' and irrefutable facts.
Too bad.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2016, 10:08:17 PM
It is there in the files. You don't need to know anything except that the two dogs were tracker dogs which, surprise surprise, track! Tracking means they track a specific scent. Search and rescue dogs look for any person.
There are different ways of "tracking" a scent, apparently.
I'll bow out and leave you all to discuss what the subtleties may be.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2016, 10:43:17 PM
Harrison: The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs.
The search and rescue dogs who searched the open areas and the beach. Not tracker dogs who were used to track whoever used the bath towel.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 28, 2016, 10:46:51 PM
The search and rescue dogs who searched the open areas and the beach. Not tracker dogs who were used to track whoever used the bath towel.
If (hypothetically) the Portuguese had dogs trained to track the (individual and unique!) scent why would they have wasted time and resources deploying dogs without that ability or training?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2016, 08:10:26 AM
If (hypothetically) the Portuguese had dogs trained to track the (individual and unique!) scent why would they have wasted time and resources deploying dogs without that ability or training?
They were search and rescue dogs. Used to look for anyone under a bush or whatever. The 'unique scent' ended at a lamppost.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 30, 2016, 01:00:19 AM
I don't think there can be too much doubt Carana has won the semantic argument hook, line and sinker.
I confess, my regret is the remit isn't limited to abduction.
There's literally nothing else to consider ....
That's not strictly true so I don't know why you still peddle that untruth. The woke and wandered theory is publicly supported by many former detectives as it represents a real possibility unless you believe she woke, wandered and was then abducted?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 30, 2016, 09:26:25 AM
That's not strictly true so I don't know why you still peddle that untruth. The woke and wandered theory is publicly supported by many former detectives as it represents a real possibility unless you believe she woke, wandered and was then abducted?
Woke and wandered was discounted by Joao Carlos in the final PJ report.
And by the prosecutors
(sic)
The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 30, 2016, 09:47:12 AM
Woke and wandered was discounted by Joao Carlos in the final PJ report.
And by the prosecutors
(sic)
The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.
That doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 30, 2016, 10:00:19 AM
Woke and wandered was discounted by Joao Carlos in the final PJ report.
He describes it as a remote hypothesis, but were they correct to make that assumption? If the child gate was open it's perfectly possible, She allegedly left the apartment twice every day by that route;
As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on January 30, 2016, 10:54:13 AM
He describes it as a remote hypothesis, but were they correct to make that assumption? If the child gate was open it's perfectly possible, She allegedly left the apartment twice every day by that route;
As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
The childgate was closed.
Read Kate's book.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 30, 2016, 10:55:35 AM
The childgate may or may not have been closed, we don't know. Some may choose to believe the things written in Kate McCann's book, others may not.
There is also the possibility of an active child climbing over the gate or knowing how to open and close it. She must have watched the adults doing it quite a few times during the holiday. If she was physically incapable of opening a closed childgate what do we make of Kate's 'so she can find us' statement?
The main argument offered by the parents against woke and wandered was the open window/shutters, which the child couldn't have done, and which were seen only by them.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on January 31, 2016, 12:36:02 PM
IMO we don't know which of the two lampposts. One is outside that carpark next to Rua Martins, the other is in that carpark.
The witness doesn't mention the dog entering the car park. The one in the car park is quite a long way in, at the start of the path leading to the main reception.
next to the wall of block 6, once the street was crossed, turned right and headed towards the area of the contiguous car park. More specifically (the dog) went next to a lamp post, smelling the ground there.] http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: sadie on January 31, 2016, 09:23:56 PM
The witness doesn't mention the dog entering the car park. The one in the car park is quite a long way in, at the start of the path leading to the main reception.
next to the wall of block 6, once the street was crossed, turned right and headed towards the area of the contiguous car park. More specifically (the dog) went next to a lamp post, smelling the ground there.] http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
That sounds like the lampost on Rua Martins, immediately opposite the Tapas reception
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2016, 09:48:45 PM
That sounds like the lampost on Rua Martins, immediately opposite the Tapas reception
The arial pic shows arrows into the car park but not as far as the lamp post which is quite far in. It also doesn't show what the handler says; that after exiting the passageway the dog turned left towards the top of the road before crossing over to the same side as block 6. (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/06/article-1042099-022F939200000578-880_468x304.jpg)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 06, 2016, 02:21:48 AM
At the beginning of the GNR dogs' route, did they go into the block 5 car parking area, or did they stay on the path adjacent to the north side of block 5?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 06, 2016, 02:44:59 AM
At the beginning of the GNR dogs' route, did they go into the block 5 car parking area, or did they stay on the path adjacent to the north side of block 5?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm snipped That after the dogs were given this scent from the towel and near apartment 5A of block 5, the first sniffer dog headed to the door of that apartment. Immediately afterward, he turned to block 5, using a circumvented route to block 5, and came to the road between this block and the leisure area of the resort (pools, restaurant, etc), and turned to the left, or around the referred to apartment and headed to the main road. Having reached there, he crossed the road and next to a wall of block 6, crossed the road again, turned right and headed to the parking zone of the resort. More specifically, the dog went next to the light post and began smelling that location.
After searching that zone, he again crossed the road and headed toward the entrance to the pool and restaurant area, and smelled the door which was closed at that hour. He turned again to the parking zone and stopped or lost the scent at this point. - When he effected the same operation with the second dog, in general, this dog took the same route and headed to the light post and showed interest there and ended by losing the scent at this point. It should be stated that the one difference is that this second dog did not head toward the entrance to the restaurant and pool zone. But he does state that the dogs followed a 'scent trail', a signal for the animal who was working. He is certain that they were not conditioned in any direction. None of the dogs used in this search action, after having smelled the towel, went into block 5 but headed to the zone which gives access to the road between the apartment and the leisure area. He states it should be noted that the second dog may have been conditioned by the original path taken by the first sniffer dog as he may have smelled the first dog's path taken.
It's unclear which side of the wall the S&R dogs were when they were given the towel to scent. However, it does appear they made for the door of 5a & followed the enclosed path around the block. I have a recollection of pictures of some dogs in block 5 car park but that was during daylight hours. If Esteves' & Silva's statements are correct, then the diagram is wrong. The dogs went up the hill to the front of Block 6, which is the only direction of travel to turn right into either car park of Block 6.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 06, 2016, 02:49:28 AM
Thanks Misty so the GNR dogs probably went along the path adjacent to north side of block 5, not into carparking area of block 5. I think there was a gate on that path?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 06, 2016, 02:57:52 AM
IMO as soon as the GNR dogs emerged from the alleyway, they crossed straight (not diagonally) over Rua Martins to the pavement on the east side of Rua Martins (next to west end of block 6), then turned right and walked south along the pavement towards the lamppost.
Crossing the road straight like that when there is no traffic is IMO what a child would do. An adult would cross it diagonally.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 06, 2016, 03:09:45 AM
Thanks Misty so the GNR dogs probably went along the path adjacent to north side of block 5, not into carparking area of block 5. I think there was a gate on that path?
I've just had a look on G/E & I couldn't see a gate. The path seems to be continuous to Bock 4, shaped in to the stairwell & back out again. Where do you think the gate is located?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 07, 2016, 02:41:54 AM
Photos of the alley between Blocks 4 & 5, courtesy of Shining. Can't see a gate.
Gate photographed in Dec 2007 http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/bw/img_0468.jpg This is looking east along the north side of block 5, from its west end. That is 5F main door on your right. Did the GNR dogs' route go through this gate?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 07, 2016, 04:09:29 AM
Gate photographed in Dec 2007 http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/bw/img_0468.jpg This is looking east along the north side of block 5, from its west end. That is 5F main door on your right. Did the GNR dogs' route go through this gate?
Aaaaaargghh. Why couldn't you have just posted that last night?????? If the gate was there in May 2007 the dogs must have had to go through it to follow the pathway around unless they exited onto the car park before then. It doesn't state that in either of the handlers' statements though. Would a child have opened that gate in the dark?
ETA There is what looks like a lock on that gate. Would that be to prevent people from using the pathway around 5F, which leads to their garden, instead of the main walkway the other side of the wall?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 07, 2016, 10:49:17 AM
Aaaaaargghh. Why couldn't you have just posted that last night?????? If the gate was there in May 2007 the dogs must have had to go through it to follow the pathway around unless they exited onto the car park before then. It doesn't state that in either of the handlers' statements though. Would a child have opened that gate in the dark?
ETA There is what looks like a lock on that gate. Would that be to prevent people from using the pathway around 5F, which leads to their garden, instead of the main walkway the other side of the wall?
That gate is NOT between blocks 4 and 5, and there is no way to get round the side of block 5 from there (front door of 5F) unless one jumps the wall.
There isn't a gate between blocks 4 and 5. Both blocks have unhindered access to the alley between the blocks.
As far as I am aware, that gate has no relevance to the MBM story whatsoever. But as a side note, I do not think the gate is locked. The clue is in the utility meter housings you can see on the wall of 5F. Whoever reads those needs access. The meter reader could be jumping the wall, but I doubt it.
To get to any of the ground floor apartments, or to the stairs/lift in block 5, one has to enter via a gap in the wall, located in the centre of the block. The wall separates a pedestrian section from the car park.
Going out, the opposite is true. Exit 5A, turn left on the pedestrian walkway, with the wall on your right, go to the centre of the block, go out through the gap into the car park. Then if one is going between blocks 4 and 5, turn left, go to the alley between the blocks, turn left into it, and head south.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 07, 2016, 12:48:10 PM
That gate is NOT between blocks 4 and 5, and there is no way to get round the side of block 5 from there (front door of 5F) unless one jumps the wall.
There isn't a gate between blocks 4 and 5. Both blocks have unhindered access to the alley between the blocks.
As far as I am aware, that gate has no relevance to the MBM story whatsoever. But as a side note, I do not think the gate is locked. The clue is in the utility meter housings you can see on the wall of 5F. Whoever reads those needs access. The meter reader could be jumping the wall, but I doubt it.
To get to any of the ground floor apartments, or to the stairs/lift in block 5, one has to enter via a gap in the wall, located in the centre of the block. The wall separates a pedestrian section from the car park.
Going out, the opposite is true. Exit 5A, turn left on the pedestrian walkway, with the wall on your right, go to the centre of the block, go out through the gap into the car park. Then if one is going between blocks 4 and 5, turn left, go to the alley between the blocks, turn left into it, and head south.
Sorry, you've lost me bit. How do you directly access the alley between 4 & 5 if that gate before 5F is locked? From what I can make out, that pathway runs directly around the west end of 5F behind the alley boundary wall, & into the rear garden of 5F. There is a small gate at the far end of 5F giving those residents access into the alley. Surely this is the same garden the McCann children ran along the front path & accessed earlier in the week?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 07, 2016, 03:25:26 PM
You go along the car park outside the wall and turn left. I think I've attached a pic.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 07, 2016, 03:34:48 PM
Sorry, you've lost me bit. How do you directly access the alley between 4 & 5 if that gate before 5F is locked? From what I can make out, that pathway runs directly around the west end of 5F behind the alley boundary wall, & into the rear garden of 5F. There is a small gate at the far end of 5F giving those residents access into the alley. Surely this is the same garden the McCann children ran along the front path & accessed earlier in the week?
You would need to look at the information attributed to Gerry to make up your mind on the following.
From memory, he says the children ran off to the west, as far as they could go, round the side, and they were in a back garden. Again from memory, Gerry says he did not recognise, or similar, where that was. I find it difficult to believe he did not recognise block 5. So I have taken this to mean they went to the west end of block 4, and round the back of 4F.
There is also a gate (now) on the end of block 4 outside 4F, so the gate barrier issue remains. However, the set-up is the same as 5F. That is, to read the 3 utility meters on the wall of 4F, you have to go through the gate (or over the gate or over the wall) but I doubt that the gate is actually locked.
Since my memory is fallible, it depends on going back to what Gerry actually said. My apologies if this has been posted already. I cannot remember where this snippet is stored.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 07, 2016, 03:56:32 PM
Thank you both.
I think the pathway runs from 5A around to the back garden of 5F. Possibly the gate Pegasus posted in the above photo was there in May, but open. That was the way the children went imo. To get to the public alleyway between blocks 4 & 5, you have to exit the pathway via the gap in the wall in front of the 5C/5D and continue through the car park before turning left into the alley. To continue to the far end of block 4 would have included alighting the 4 or 5 steps into block 4 carpark. I do not think the parents would have allowed the children to run ahead in a car zone. I believe what Pegasus is driving at is the exact route followed by the S&R dogs. If they followed the pathway around block 5 there was at least one gate, maybe two, to pass through. They would not have walked the entire length of the public alley as shown on the diagram of the route both dogs took. Was Madeleine familiar with the public routeway to the alley? I suggest not. Why would the family have circumvented the block to get to any of their destinations, which were all in the other direction? I don't think Madeleine had ever walked that entire route before, which adds weight to the doubts it was indeed her scent the dogs were following.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 07, 2016, 04:04:09 PM
You would need to look at the information attributed to Gerry to make up your mind on the following.
From memory, he says the children ran off to the west, as far as they could go, round the side, and they were in a back garden. Again from memory, Gerry says he did not recognise, or similar, where that was. I find it difficult to believe he did not recognise block 5. So I have taken this to mean they went to the west end of block 4, and round the back of 4F.
There is also a gate (now) on the end of block 4 outside 4F, so the gate barrier issue remains. However, the set-up is the same as 5F. That is, to read the 3 utility meters on the wall of 4F, you have to go through the gate (or over the gate or over the wall) but I doubt that the gate is actually locked.
Since my memory is fallible, it depends on going back to what Gerry actually said. My apologies if this has been posted already. I cannot remember where this snippet is stored.
That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 07, 2016, 04:11:34 PM
That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
In what way does that statement disprove what I have just written? Are you saying that both Madeleine & the twins left the pathway & ran through 2 car parks totally unsupervised?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 07, 2016, 04:27:41 PM
Photo of access to block 4 from block 5 (courtesy of Shining).
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 07, 2016, 04:43:42 PM
That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Thanks for this.
OK.
I now see 3 alternatives, as follows.
1) The children ran to the end of block 5 remaining in the pathway, and not entering the car park of block 5. This is not the route dogs took, is it?
2) The children ran into the car park of block 5. We do not know if there were any cars in it at the time. Then they turned left, and went down the alley. This is the route the dogs took, isn't it? But it does not take you into anyone's garden, so it does not fit Gerry's narrative.
3) The children ran into the car park of block 5. (Or of course, were in it when the running started.) Again, we do not know if there were any cars in the car park. They went to the top of the alleyway. I cannot remember if there are stairs down from car park 5 to the alleyway, but there are definitely stairs up from the alleyway to the car park of block 4. They then run from the top of the steps through half the length of car park 4. Again, there may or may not have been cars in the car park. Half way along block 4 they make a slight swerve to the left to get into the pathway in front of block 4. They continue west until they get to the gate near 4F. Just as with option 1) somehow this obstacle is overcome. They turn left as they can go no further and find themselves in the back garden of 4F. This is not the route the dogs took, is it?
So, the dogs took a route that did not match Gerry's description.
Going around the inside of block 5 is probably easier, but why Gerry's statement mentions blocks plural is a mystery. Just to be clear, my comment that Gerry did not recognise the location does NOT appear in the statement.
Going to the furthest end of the blocks fits Gerry's statement, but is definitely a less likely option. We now have to have the twins running up a flight of perhaps 6 or 7 stairs to get into the car park of block 4.
I never really thought about this in minute detail. I saw something innocuous. The kids having a bit of an adventure with Dad following close behind to make sure they were safe.
Bottom line, the route for this adventure does not appear to match the dogs route other than roughly.
If this is an important point, I'll have a look at Gerry's statement to see how accurate the Portuguese to English translation is.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 07, 2016, 04:51:11 PM
Photo of access to block 4 from block 5 (courtesy of Shining).
OK. No steps down actually from block 5 to get to the junction with block 4. Definite steps up to get from 5 to 4. And a couple of steps at the top of the alleyway.
Not particularly running territory for children aged two and a quarter.
I meant to mention, in general, the prevailing wind here has a general west to east direction. What is was doing around the time I do not know.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 07, 2016, 08:21:01 PM
OK. No steps down actually from block 5 to get to the junction with block 4. Definite steps up to get from 5 to 4. And a couple of steps at the top of the alleyway.
Not particularly running territory for children aged two and a quarter.
I meant to mention, in general, the prevailing wind here has a general west to east direction. What is was doing around the time I do not know.
I think the translation might bear looking at, it's fairly unclear. I'm inclined to think Gerry told the PJ about the running away incident because he saw the route the dogs took after sniffing the towel. The group believed an abduction had taken place at 9.15pm and that Tannerman was the abductor. Therefore the dogs went the wrong way in their opinion. He must have wondered why the dogs didn't turn right and track Tannerman. Then he remembered the children running away and made sure he brought it to the attention of the PJ in case they got the wrong idea. He also told them that Madeleine visited the Payne apartment, because the dogs showed an interest there too.
Of course Redwood was almost sure that Tannerman could be eliminated. I wonder if he then remembered those dogs going left out of the apartment? That may suggest that whoever took the child went out of the front door, turned left and went down between the blocks. Then it gets silly. They turned left again and headed towards the road. At the road they turned left again, and headed towards the T Junction. They then crossed the road to the wall of Block 6, turned right and headed towards the car park south of Block 6. It's unlikely that Madeleine or an abductor took that route. I wonder what the dogs were following? What a shame they can't talk.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 07, 2016, 11:45:18 PM
@GUnit. "Wall of block 6" means the west end wall (several storys high) of the block 6 building. The GNR dogs trail did not head towards the T-junction. Emerging from the alleyway the dogs went east across Rua Martins then south along the east pavement of Rua Martins.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on February 07, 2016, 11:49:46 PM
I think the translation might bear looking at, it's fairly unclear. I'm inclined to think Gerry told the PJ about the running away incident because he saw the route the dogs took after sniffing the towel. The group believed an abduction had taken place at 9.15pm and that Tannerman was the abductor. Therefore the dogs went the wrong way in their opinion. He must have wondered why the dogs didn't turn right and track Tannerman. Then he remembered the children running away and made sure he brought it to the attention of the PJ in case they got the wrong idea. He also told them that Madeleine visited the Payne apartment, because the dogs showed an interest there too.
Of course Redwood was almost sure that Tannerman could be eliminated. I wonder if he then remembered those dogs going left out of the apartment? That may suggest that whoever took the child went out of the front door, turned left and went down between the blocks. Then it gets silly. They turned left again and headed towards the road. At the road they turned left again, and headed towards the T Junction. They then crossed the road to the wall of Block 6, turned right and headed towards the car park south of Block 6. It's unlikely that Madeleine or an abductor took that route. I wonder what the dogs were following? What a shame they can't talk.
I've lost count of how often the point has made that the efforts of the GNR dog-handlers, though valiant and commendable, were irrelevant.
They weren't the right dogs for the job.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 08, 2016, 12:05:53 AM
I've lost count of how often the point has made that the efforts of the GNR dog-handlers, though valiant and commendable, were irrelevant.
They weren't the right dogs for the job.
It is interesting that the way the GNR dogs crossed the road matched the way a child would from an early age be trained to cross a road. An imaginary abductor going from alleyway to the carpark south of G6 that night would certainly have crossed the road diagonally because its the shortest route. But a lone child crosses straight even if there is absolutely no traffic.
The person being tracked by those GNR dogs crossed that road straight.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 08, 2016, 12:14:10 AM
It is interesting that the way the GNR dogs crossed the road matched the way a child would from an early age be trained to cross a road. An imaginary abductor going from alleyway to the carpark south of G6 that night would certainly have crossed the road diagonally because its the shortest route. But a lone child crosses straight even if there is absolutely no traffic.
The person being tracked by those GNR dogs crossed that road straight.
The dog headed left UP the hill to the main road, where it crossed the road. Both handlers stated that.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 08, 2016, 12:36:17 AM
@GUnit. "Wall of block 6" means the west end wall (several storys high) of the block 6 building. The GNR dogs trail did not head towards the T-junction. Emerging from the alleyway the dogs went east across Rua Martins then south along the east pavement of Rua Martins.
I have looked closely at the dog handler's statement, and there is actually a mistranslation. The dogs turned left after exiting the alleyway. I have posted about it previously, I'll try to find it later.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 08, 2016, 03:36:17 PM
If the dog trail refers to the 'specialist' dogs brought in late on 4th, the following is relevant.
Kate's book, p85. The para is long, so here's the summary. At some time on the 4th, the McCanns were asked for an article relating solely to Madeleine. Out of the offerings, they took the pink princess blanket.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2016, 03:58:43 PM
If the dog trail refers to the 'specialist' dogs brought in late on 4th, the following is relevant.
Kate's book, p85. The para is long, so here's the summary. At some time on the 4th, the McCanns were asked for an article relating solely to Madeleine. Out of the offerings, they took the pink princess blanket.
Yes. This is a first-hand account by IMO a very honest witness. It is confirmed in the files, for example "the dogs were given a blanket to sniff ... which had been used by Madeleine" (Processos XIII p3517).
The strongest human scent on this comfort blanket is likely to be the child's. So the scent trail followed by the dogs which used it as a scent source needs to be carefully examined, no matter how impossible it seems for a trail to just disappear on Rua Martins
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2016, 04:16:44 PM
In handler Fernandes statement, after reaching the lamppost, the first dog
"again crossed the road and headed toward the entrance to the pool and restaurant area, and smelled the door"
This is interesting. This door cannot be opened by a dog. What would you do next if you were the handler?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 09, 2016, 04:40:54 PM
In handler Fernandes statement, after reaching the lamppost, the first dog
"again crossed the road and headed toward the entrance to the pool and restaurant area, and smelled the door"
This is interesting. This door cannot be opened by a dog. What would you do next if you were the handler?
The translation of Fernandes statement says the door was closed. I suspect it was actually locked, and the Tapas area was closed. I doubt Fernandes stopped at a door he could open.
Fernandes says they turned up at 10.30. Kate, p85 again "According to the files, the tracker dogs did not go out until 11pm on 4 May".
The normal clock-off time for the staff was 12 midnight. Perhaps they closed early after the search of the previous night.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 09, 2016, 06:28:32 PM
The translation of Fernandes statement says the door was closed. I suspect it was actually locked, and the Tapas area was closed. I doubt Fernandes stopped at a door he could open.
Fernandes says they turned up at 10.30. Kate, p85 again "According to the files, the tracker dogs did not go out until 11pm on 4 May".
The normal clock-off time for the staff was 12 midnight. Perhaps they closed early after the search of the previous night.
I think I'll stick with the handler's accounts of what the dogs sniffed, being as they handled it and their statements were taken fairly quickly after the event.
Info from Fernandes' statement 9th May 2007.
Most of the dogs involved were search and rescue dogs who searched the village and the open spaces. The only tracker dogs used were Rex and Zarus, handled by Fernandes. They arrived about 10.30pm on 4th May, and Fernandes was asked to try to track the child. He was given a towel, supposedly used by the child for the dogs to sniff. On the 7th he repeated the exercise inside and outside the blocks using the same towel. The dogs followed the same outside route each time. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
Antonio Silva agrees, statement given on 9th May 2007
They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child in question. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
The quote about the pink blanket comes from the report of Major Sequeira dated December 2007;
For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2016, 08:16:52 PM
The translation of Fernandes statement says the door was closed. I suspect it was actually locked, and the Tapas area was closed. I doubt Fernandes stopped at a door he could open.
Fernandes says they turned up at 10.30. Kate, p85 again "According to the files, the tracker dogs did not go out until 11pm on 4 May".
The normal clock-off time for the staff was 12 midnight. Perhaps they closed early after the search of the previous night.
Yes "fechada" obviously here means "locked". So the scent trail of a missing child is tracked by one dog to the outer door of that reception building, and that tracking is then abandoned, just because the door was locked, so the dog is unable to continue tracking! And so the dog team never finds out whether the child had entered that door, whether the child then also went through the inner door, whether the child continued into the pools area. If I was the officer in charge I would have urgently requested a key.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 09, 2016, 08:27:46 PM
Yes "fechada" obviously here means "locked". So the scent trail of a missing child is tracked by one dog to the outer door of that reception building, and that tracking is then abandoned, just because the door was locked, so the dog is unable to continue tracking! And so the dog team never finds out whether the child had entered that door, whether the child then also went through the inner door, whether the child continued into the pools area. If I was the officer in charge I would have urgently requested a key.
Fair enough.
The child entered that door, by the track the dogs took, in order to go by the shortcut from the Mini Club to high tea.
I doubt that any of the officers deployed on the ground on 4 May 2007 had a clue as to what was going on. Just my opinion.
My dog stops at a locked door. Would I, in Portugal 2007 have requested anyone to open that door? Big call.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 09, 2016, 09:15:05 PM
As the handlers stated that the dogs were following the scent from a towel it could have been used by anyone, so it can't be deduced that they were following the child's scent.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 09, 2016, 10:48:10 PM
Yes "fechada" obviously here means "locked". So the scent trail of a missing child is tracked by one dog to the outer door of that reception building, and that tracking is then abandoned, just because the door was locked, so the dog is unable to continue tracking! And so the dog team never finds out whether the child had entered that door, whether the child then also went through the inner door, whether the child continued into the pools area. If I was the officer in charge I would have urgently requested a key.
Madeleine entered that way at 5 on 3 May and left 30 minutes later so the dogs would find her scent at the entrance.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 09, 2016, 11:30:50 PM
The child entered that door, by the track the dogs took, in order to go by the shortcut from the Mini Club to high tea.
I doubt that any of the officers deployed on the ground on 4 May 2007 had a clue as to what was going on. Just my opinion.
My dog stops at a locked door. Would I, in Portugal 2007 have requested anyone to open that door? Big call.
While following a trail both dogs independently stopped and showed interest at another locked door ... apartment 5J ... no-one bothered to gain access till days later.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 09, 2016, 11:51:58 PM
While following a trail both dogs independently stopped and showed interest at another locked door ... apartment 5J ... no-one bothered to gain access till days later.
During their second visit on 7th May,they also showed interest in 4G, where Madeleine had never been.
It is certain however, that near apartment 5J, 5H and 4G, that the dog showed major interest in smelling the doors and the immediate areas. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 10, 2016, 01:05:41 AM
During their second visit on 7th May,they also showed interest in 4G, where Madeleine had never been.
It is certain however, that near apartment 5J, 5H and 4G, that the dog showed major interest in smelling the doors and the immediate areas. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
Madeleine had been to 4G only once I believe for lunch early in the holiday. The McCanns normally had lunch in their apartment. A cleaner witness saw them going upstairs to 4G - I think it's in the Chile documentary.
"my mum generally was the sandwich maker, that was a bit of a joke for the week, she'd took it upon herself to do loads of shopping, erm, while we were sort of sailing and stuff, she, she'd go to the Supermarket and get loads of, loads of provisions in and she'd be making piles of baguettes and, erm, yeah, and everyone would generally descend on ours and demolish the lot.". FP
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 10, 2016, 01:11:53 AM
Madeleine had been to 4G only once I believe for lunch early in the holiday. The McCanns normally had lunch in their apartment. A cleaner witness saw them going upstairs to 4G - I think it's in the Chile documentary.
"my mum generally was the sandwich maker, that was a bit of a joke for the week, she'd took it upon herself to do loads of shopping, erm, while we were sort of sailing and stuff, she, she'd go to the Supermarket and get loads of, loads of provisions in and she'd be making piles of baguettes and, erm, yeah, and everyone would generally descend on ours and demolish the lot.". FP
The Paynes were in 5H not 4G before Madeleine went missing.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 10, 2016, 01:41:20 AM
4g at the east end of the first floor, has 2 bedrooms, is similar to 5g. They also had 4i.
Was 4I the one that was referred to as 'Mission Control"? Did Eddie get deployed in 4I?
And while we are on your impressive knowledge of interiors, it has been bugging me that David Payne requested ground floor apartments for everyone in the group, but he ended up in 5H on the first floor, when 5C was vacant on the ground floor. Have you any idea how these 2 flats compare?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 10, 2016, 07:03:22 AM
While following a trail both dogs independently stopped and showed interest at another locked door ... apartment 5J ... no-one bothered to gain access till days later.
Without checking, isn't it the case that 5J was not in the OC list, therefore a key would not have been available? I thought they eventually got in by climbing from next door to the rear of 5J.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 10, 2016, 08:57:30 AM
If the children ran to the end of block 4 and then into the gardens why did the dog go down the passageway between blocks 4 and 5?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 10, 2016, 12:04:55 PM
If the children ran to the end of block 4 and then into the gardens why did the dog go down the passageway between blocks 4 and 5?
From many trails of different ages, all made by the same person, a dog can select the most recent.
The GNR dogs were following the freshest (newest) detectable trail, which went between blocks 5 and 4.
The route described in a statement is different, it goes around west end of block 4 IMO, through end garden, it is described as being made on an earlier day. However, it is still interesting.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 11, 2016, 07:44:26 AM
From many trails of different ages, all made by the same person, a dog can select the most recent.
The GNR dogs were following the freshest (newest) detectable trail, which went between blocks 5 and 4.
The route described in a statement is different, it goes around west end of block 4 IMO, through end garden, it is described as being made on an earlier day. However, it is still interesting.
Madeleine never went down that passageway between blocks 4 and 5 according to her parents.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on February 11, 2016, 07:55:22 AM
Harrison was examining searches carried out and advising on future searches. Therefore he concentrated on the dogs used in searching the urban areas, the beach and the open spaces. They were not given anything to sniff, as far as I know. The two dogs used to search around and inside blocks 4 and 5 were tracker dogs, they didn't join in the general searches. They followed a unique scent as opposed to any human scent. There would have been absolutely no point in using the dogs which didn't follow an individual scent.
At about 23.00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team). http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Tracking is a technique in which dogs are trained to locate certain objects by using the object's scent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracking_(dog)
From their training and experience, search and rescue dogs can be classified broadly as either air scenting dogs or trailing (and tracking) dogs. They also can be classified according to whether they scent discriminate, and under what conditions they can work. Scent discriminating dogs have proven their ability to alert only on the scent of an individual person, after being given a sample of that person's scent. Non-scent discriminating dogs alert on or follow any scent of a given type, such as any human scent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_and_rescue_dog
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 11, 2016, 12:24:44 PM
Madeleine never went down that passageway between blocks 4 and 5 according to her parents.
Which passageway? The only one between the blocks 5 & 4 was the normal kids route not the car park to the road.
That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception. GM 10 May
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 11, 2016, 01:02:16 PM
Which passageway? The only one between the blocks 5 & 4 was the normal kids route not the car park to the road.
That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception. GM 10 May
They went left out of the front door once, as described above. Usually, according to Gerry, Kate and the children entered and left the apartment by the patio doors. That route leads to the gate on the street. No way did they use that passageway normally.
Following this they returned to the apartment, the deponent opened the main door with his key and, then, the rear door through which KATE and the children entered.
They all left by the main door due to the carriages, went around to the right, down the street of the supermarket and went to the beach
Thursday, after breakfast, about 09h00, KATE and the children left by the rear door, he having left by the front door, which he locked with the key, having also closed and locked the rear door from the inside.
the deponent left by the front door and the rest of the family by the rear door that, once again, he shut and locked from the inside.
After 17H30 they went to the apartment, the deponent having entered by the main door, which he did not lock while he was inside the residence. KATE and the children entered by the rear door, after this had been opened from the inside by the deponent. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 11, 2016, 02:19:23 PM
How can they leave the back way when they locked the apartment on 3 May? The left by the key door according to Kate and came back that way i.e. Madeleine's last known route using the passageway. The alive scent dogs weren't interested in the back way. I for one don't believe that he left Kate carrying 3 small kids down steep dangerous steps. That child gate was there for good reason.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 11, 2016, 07:05:25 PM
How can they leave the back way when they locked the apartment on 3 May? The left by the key door according to Kate and came back that way i.e. Madeleine's last known route using the passageway. The alive scent dogs weren't interested in the back way. I for one don't believe that he left Kate carrying 3 small kids down steep dangerous steps. That child gate was there for good reason.
I don't understand why you want to insist they used that route. Why would they leave the Tapas, walk up the road, turn left down the passageway and walk the length of Block 5, then turn right and walk between the two blocks, right again into block 5 car park and walk along to their front door? It makes no sense. They either walked up and went into the gate as they did when checking or they walked right up to the top of the road and turned left, then left again into the car park and went to the front door. All the families used that route.
Kate says in her book, Chapter 4;
After the first couple of days we barely used the front door, coming and going through the patio doors and up and down the steps.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 11, 2016, 07:09:34 PM
Can I nominate this thread for the most tedious thread on the forum award? @)(++(* Can someone tell me what you're arguing about, save me wading through reams of boring detail...
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 11, 2016, 07:41:47 PM
Can I nominate this thread for the most tedious thread on the forum award? @)(++(* Can someone tell me what you're arguing about, save me wading through reams of boring detail...
No pain no gain Alfred.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 11, 2016, 08:03:11 PM
Can I nominate this thread for the most tedious thread on the forum award? @)(++(* Can someone tell me what you're arguing about, save me wading through reams of boring detail...
Probably having an arcane discussion about woofers; whingeing about Sr Amaral's incompetence/criminal record/swarthy appearance and long lunch breaks; having a pop at the Drs McCann; insulting posters. Take your pick most threads follow that MO eventually 8(0(*
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 11, 2016, 08:33:06 PM
I don't understand why you want to insist they used that route. Why would they leave the Tapas, walk up the road, turn left down the passageway and walk the length of Block 5, then turn right and walk between the two blocks, right again into block 5 car park and walk along to their front door? It makes no sense. They either walked up and went into the gate as they did when checking or they walked right up to the top of the road and turned left, then left again into the car park and went to the front door. All the families used that route.
Kate says in her book, Chapter 4;
After the first couple of days we barely used the front door, coming and going through the patio doors and up and down the steps.
Kate was questioned hard in September and revealed this about 3 May.
"After breakfast they got dressed and left the apartment by the main door. All children went walking. The veranda door was closed and locked."
"They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key. She does not know if it was locked, and presumes it was Gerry who opened it. At lunch time they also entered by the same door."
Kate was questioned hard in September and revealed this about 3 May.
"After breakfast they got dressed and left the apartment by the main door. All children went walking. The veranda door was closed and locked."
"They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key. She does not know if it was locked, and presumes it was Gerry who opened it. At lunch time they also entered by the same door."
Kate was questioned hard in September and revealed this about 3 May.
"After breakfast they got dressed and left the apartment by the main door. All children went walking. The veranda door was closed and locked."
"They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key. She does not know if it was locked, and presumes it was Gerry who opened it. At lunch time they also entered by the same door."
So they enter all day with the key then leave it unlocked at night with their kids inside. None of it adds up.
Kate wrote every little detail in her journal too! Probably forgot to write about the doors though.
The fact that none of it adds up is why I, for one, wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. Others will argue that they couldn't be expected to remember every little detail on a holiday. I'd accept that, but a) there's too many of these peculiarities and b) anyone who can't remember which door he used THE NIGHT BEFORE is 'avin a laff imo.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Carana on February 11, 2016, 08:58:08 PM
Kate was questioned hard in September and revealed this about 3 May.
"After breakfast they got dressed and left the apartment by the main door. All children went walking. The veranda door was closed and locked."
"They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key. She does not know if it was locked, and presumes it was Gerry who opened it. At lunch time they also entered by the same door."
So they enter all day with the key then leave it unlocked at night with their kids inside. None of it adds up.
During the day, the kids were at their crčches and the parents were off playing tennis or whatever, and presumably anticipated being away for several hours at a stretch.
In the evening, whether one agrees with their reasoning or not, they seem to have felt that as they were so close to the apartment, they could simply nip back to check on the sleeping kids.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 11, 2016, 09:09:42 PM
During the day, the kids were at their crčches and the parents were off playing tennis or whatever, and presumably anticipated being away for several hours at a stretch.
In the evening, whether one agrees with their reasoning or not, they seem to have felt that as they were so close to the apartment, they could simply nip back to check on the sleeping kids.
The excuses given, I believe, varied. i've seen 'not wanting to disturb the children' by turning the door key in the front door, leaving the patio door open 'in case of fire' and leaving it open so 'Madeleine could find them'. As soon as Madeleine disappeared, however, she 'wouldn't dream of wandering out of the apartment'. Why leave the door open then? Surely not because they just couldn't be bothered walking round to the front like everyone else, this super-fit sporty couple?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 11, 2016, 11:23:24 PM
Kate wrote every little detail in her journal too! Probably forgot to write about the doors though.
The fact that none of it adds up is why I, for one, wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. Others will argue that they couldn't be expected to remember every little detail on a holiday. I'd accept that, but a) there's too many of these peculiarities and b) anyone who can't remember which door he used THE NIGHT BEFORE is 'avin a laff imo.
None of it amounts to even a hillock of beans, and your lack of trust in the McCanns is really of no consequence or interest to anyone (except perhaps other like minded souls who enjoy poring over these not-very-significant inconsistencies looking for evidence of guilt). It's a strange hobby some might say.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 12, 2016, 03:17:59 AM
None of it amounts to even a hillock of beans, and your lack of trust in the McCanns is really of no consequence or interest to anyone (except perhaps other like minded souls who enjoy poring over these not-very-significant inconsistencies looking for evidence of guilt). It's a strange hobby some might say.
A child could easily have wandered out to the street. This is why top professionals with extensive experience like MWT and O'Connor seriously consider the woke and wandered theory - it is not a hillock of beans
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 12, 2016, 03:33:35 AM
A child could easily have wandered out to the street. This is why top professionals with extensive experience like MWT and O'Connor seriously consider the woke and wandered theory - it is not a hillock of beans
Do we know who was in 5F that week, please?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 12, 2016, 07:51:07 AM
None of it amounts to even a hillock of beans, and your lack of trust in the McCanns is really of no consequence or interest to anyone (except perhaps other like minded souls who enjoy poring over these not-very-significant inconsistencies looking for evidence of guilt). It's a strange hobby some might say.
Ignorance is bliss.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 12, 2016, 08:03:55 AM
A child could easily have wandered out to the street. This is why top professionals with extensive experience like MWT and O'Connor seriously consider the woke and wandered theory - it is not a hillock of beans
Does it appear to you that Operation Grange is seriously considering the "woke and wandered" theory?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 12, 2016, 08:23:11 AM
The excuses given, I believe, varied. i've seen 'not wanting to disturb the children' by turning the door key in the front door, leaving the patio door open 'in case of fire' and leaving it open so 'Madeleine could find them'. As soon as Madeleine disappeared, however, she 'wouldn't dream of wandering out of the apartment'. Why leave the door open then? Surely not because they just couldn't be bothered walking round to the front like everyone else, this super-fit sporty couple?
Have you ever wondered that the McCann's meant in the case of a fire, that people would be able to get in and rescue the children?
The patio was the quickest route to the children, they say it only took a minute or two to get there.
With the steps leading up and two gates, they must have thought that someone would be less likely to enter the apartment, and of course how would anyone know the patio door was open unless they had been observing the family?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 12, 2016, 09:17:28 AM
Have you ever wondered that the McCann's meant in the case of a fire, that people would be able to get in and rescue the children?
The patio was the quickest route to the children, they say it only took a minute or two to get there.
With the steps leading up and two gates, they must have thought that someone would be less likely to enter the apartment, and of course how would anyone know the patio door was open unless they had been observing the family?
So why would intelligent people leave children by themselves in a potential fire risk ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 12, 2016, 09:24:09 AM
You are getting confused with your locked and unlocked,,,SY and the new PJ investigation do not think the McCanns are involved...you need to wake up
Wouldn't it make a nice change for you to actually join in a debate and post your reasons for the sweeping statements you make? No matter what the subject of the thread you merely trot out your 'one answer fits all' mantra.
The apartment was usually locked up in the daytime and usually unlocked at night, except when they get confused about it, like Gerry did about 3rd May. Obviously he'd completely forgotten the discussion he and Kate had about whether to lock the patio doors or not. You remember, the couple who 'didn't even think about it, it felt so safe'?
she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up',
'And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry, Gerry had sort of said 'Oh it will be fine', you know. But she was obviously, because it wasn't something she was quite easy with, that's the way it came across, you know, but, but Gerry said, you know, 'It'll be fine. It'll be fine'. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 12, 2016, 09:44:53 AM
Have you ever wondered that the McCann's meant in the case of a fire, that people would be able to get in and rescue the children?
The patio was the quickest route to the children, they say it only took a minute or two to get there.
With the steps leading up and two gates, they must have thought that someone would be less likely to enter the apartment, and of course how would anyone know the patio door was open unless they had been observing the family?
Who are these 'people' who are going to enter burning buildings then? Passers by? They wouldn't know the patio doors were unlocked.
The patio door was indeed the quickest route. I assume therefore it was left open for the benefit of the parents, not the children.
Kate says. "It's hard to answer the question, 'Were we wrong to leave them?' If I'd had to think for one second, 'Should we have dinner and leave them?' I wouldn't have done it.
"It didn't happen like that. I didn't have to think for a second, that's how safe I felt. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id16.html
No thought, no discussion apparently. It never even entered their heads that what they were doing was foolish.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 13, 2016, 03:53:20 AM
groundfloor a yes b yes c no d yes e no f no - 1st floor g yes h yes i no j no - 2nd floor k yes l no m no n no - 3rd and 4th floors splitlevel (bedrooms on 3rd floor and lounge etc on 4th floor) o no p no q no r no
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 13, 2016, 08:00:20 AM
groundfloor a yes b yes c no d yes e no f no - 1st floor g yes h yes i no j no - 2nd floor k yes l no m no n no - 3rd and 4th floors splitlevel (bedrooms on 3rd floor and lounge etc on 4th floor) o no p no q no r no
Can you tell me how you know which apartments were empty?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 13, 2016, 08:44:02 PM
From many sources G-Unit, including a source known to covert investigation professionals by the code name "cleaner" see Proc II p392
"when the child disappeared only apartments A, B, D, G, H and K were occupied".
So in that block, 6 occupied and 12 unoccupied
The cleaner commented only on the apartments she cleaned. She didn't for example, clean for Mrs Fenn as far as I know. Did she clean for the Moyes? I don't know. There could have been other owner-occupiers in Block 5.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 13, 2016, 10:43:51 PM
groundfloor a yes b yes c no d yes e no f no - 1st floor g yes h yes i no j no - 2nd floor k yes l no m no n no - 3rd and 4th floors splitlevel (bedrooms on 3rd floor and lounge etc on 4th floor) o no p no q no r no
Would it therefore be reasonable to assume that the gate blocking pathway access around the side of 5F would have been unlocked rather than locked if the apartment was unoccupied? I can't see a purpose for it other than privacy, preventing people cutting through to the back passageway instead of using the public alleyway.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 14, 2016, 12:11:11 AM
Would it therefore be reasonable to assume that the gate blocking pathway access around the side of 5F would have been unlocked rather than locked if the apartment was unoccupied? I can't see a purpose for it other than privacy, preventing people cutting through to the back passageway instead of using the public alleyway.
I think this gate is mentioned somewhere else in the files too but I can't find it again. It is on the north (carpark) side of block 5, in between a window of the bedroom of 5E and the window of north bedroom of 5F. I don't know its purpose.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 14, 2016, 09:23:00 AM
I think this gate is mentioned somewhere else in the files too but I can't find it again. It is on the north (carpark) side of block 5, in between a window of the bedroom of 5E and the window of north bedroom of 5F. I don't know its purpose.
Convention, or law, in Portugal. If a property is unfenced, anyone can walk on it and take, for example, some types of fruit from it or hunt on it. If fenced off, neither of these activities is permitted.
There are exceptions in both fenced and unfenced, but you don't want chapter and verse.
The gate signifies that public access is not welcome and that the territory within 'belongs' to 5F and is private.
The gate does not need to be locked to signify this. It merely needs to be closed.
My driveway gates are open at this point in time. Technically, this means it is OK for people to come onto my property and take my .....
.... fallen pine cones, which are used here to get a winter fire going in the wood burner.
As it happens, most people stop where the gates are, even if the gates are open. That is why we seldom shut them.
I would expect the gate at 5F to be closed but not locked. The photo earlier clearly shows 3 utility meter hatches on the side of 5F. Somebody has the right of access to read those.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 14, 2016, 11:10:26 AM
Convention, or law, in Portugal. If a property is unfenced, anyone can walk on it and take, for example, some types of fruit from it or hunt on it. If fenced off, neither of these activities is permitted.
There are exceptions in both fenced and unfenced, but you don't want chapter and verse.
The gate signifies that public access is not welcome and that the territory within 'belongs' to 5F and is private.
The gate does not need to be locked to signify this. It merely needs to be closed.
My driveway gates are open at this point in time. Technically, this means it is OK for people to come onto my property and take my .....
.... fallen pine cones, which are used here to get a winter fire going in the wood burner.
As it happens, most people stop where the gates are, even if the gates are open. That is why we seldom shut them.
I would expect the gate at 5F to be closed but not locked. The photo earlier clearly shows 3 utility meter hatches on the side of 5F. Somebody has the right of access to read those.
Do you receive advance notification of the date on which the utility meters are going to be read, as there seem to be quite a few gated villas in Luz? As a side issue, where are the collection points for incoming mail?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 14, 2016, 11:49:57 AM
Do you receive advance notification of the date on which the utility meters are going to be read, as there seem to be quite a few gated villas in Luz? As a side issue, where are the collection points for incoming mail?
There are many gated villas in Luz. Gated is the norm for a villa in Luz.
No-one gets advance notice when the meters are to be read.
Standard practice is that meters are on the outside of the property, so do not require entry to the plot. The main meters are water and electricity. Mains gas is rare, at least outside of major conurbations. Bottled gas is dirt cheap. We go though roughly €100 per year. Bear in mind we do have gas central heating, but we have seldom used it, so gas consumption is cooker top and hot water for showers.
Incoming mail is fairly complex. When we make our next move to a home we are purchasing, we will have a post box of our own on the outside wall of our villa. Mail etc will get stuffed into it without entry to our property. It is not normal for people with holiday homes to use such a system.
When we were shifting from pillar to post a better method was to use the Royal Mail, which operates a re-direct system (for a charge). At the moment, our mail heads to an address in the UK, to a property we sold years ago. Then Royal Mail intercepts and re-directs to a UK address occupied by our family. Then the family looks at the mail, and takes appropriate action.
We therefore have 2 types of people in the McCann scenario, which I assume is your point of interest.
People who have made Portugal their home, such as Mrs Fenn, and our new neighbours. And people who simply have a holiday home, such as most of the Ocean Club.
People with holiday homes would not be interested in getting mail directed to Portugal, so no mailbox. I am not aware of any letterboxes or external mailboxes around blocks 4, 5 or 6, but please don't quote me on this. If it is important, I can wander down and have a gander.
Then there's people like me, hopefully moving into a new home. The property has a much battered mailbox on the outside. I have a shiny new mailbox. I hope to have our mail delivered to our shiny new mailbox, but this is Portugal, so I am far from certain.
This leaves us with people like Mrs Fenn, who appears to be resident, but seemingly no apparent mailbox. A further option is that we can get mail delivered to the Post Office on Rua Direita, and pick it up from there.
One final trick on mail. Some bits and pieces, such as from Amazon, we get delivered to where the children live in Luz at the moment, on the basis that Mum is highly likely to be in at delivery time.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 14, 2016, 12:20:33 PM
There are many gated villas in Luz. Gated is the norm for a villa in Luz.
No-one gets advance notice when the meters are to be read.
Standard practice is that meters are on the outside of the property, so do not require entry to the plot. The main meters are water and electricity. Mains gas is rare, at least outside of major conurbations. Bottled gas is dirt cheap. We go though roughly €100 per year. Bear in mind we do have gas central heating, but we have seldom used it, so gas consumption is cooker top and hot water for showers.
Incoming mail is fairly complex. When we make our next move to a home we are purchasing, we will have a post box of our own on the outside wall of our villa. Mail etc will get stuffed into it without entry to our property. It is not normal for people with holiday homes to use such a system.
When we were shifting from pillar to post a better method was to use the Royal Mail, which operates a re-direct system (for a charge). At the moment, our mail heads to an address in the UK, to a property we sold years ago. Then Royal Mail intercepts and re-directs to a UK address occupied by our family. Then the family looks at the mail, and takes appropriate action.
We therefore have 2 types of people in the McCann scenario, which I assume is your point of interest.
People who have made Portugal their home, such as Mrs Fenn, and our new neighbours. And people who simply have a holiday home, such as most of the Ocean Club.
People with holiday homes would not be interested in getting mail directed to Portugal, so no mailbox. I am not aware of any letterboxes or external mailboxes around blocks 4, 5 or 6, but please don't quote me on this. If it is important, I can wander down and have a gander.
Then there's people like me, hopefully moving into a new home. The property has a much battered mailbox on the outside. I have a shiny new mailbox. I hope to have our mail delivered to our shiny new mailbox, but this is Portugal, so I am far from certain.
This leaves us with people like Mrs Fenn, who appears to be resident, but seemingly no apparent mailbox. A further option is that we can get mail delivered to the Post Office on Rua Direita, and pick it up from there.
One final trick on mail. Some bits and pieces, such as from Amazon, we get delivered to where the children live in Luz at the moment, on the basis that Mum is highly likely to be in at delivery time.
and what relevance does any of that have to teh McCann case
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 14, 2016, 02:40:15 PM
Relevance - dunno. Why are you asking me? I did not raise the question.
Is central heating common in Luz, SIL? If so, what sort would it be? If not, would people have something else like oil filled radiators or electric fires? I'm mostly interested in relation to the holiday apartments.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 14, 2016, 04:08:02 PM
Convention, or law, in Portugal. If a property is unfenced, anyone can walk on it and take, for example, some types of fruit from it or hunt on it. If fenced off, neither of these activities is permitted.
There are exceptions in both fenced and unfenced, but you don't want chapter and verse.
The gate signifies that public access is not welcome and that the territory within 'belongs' to 5F and is private.
The gate does not need to be locked to signify this. It merely needs to be closed.
My driveway gates are open at this point in time. Technically, this means it is OK for people to come onto my property and take my .....
.... fallen pine cones, which are used here to get a winter fire going in the wood burner.
As it happens, most people stop where the gates are, even if the gates are open. That is why we seldom shut them. ...(snip)
An example is the charity collection at a house on Rua Ramalhete. The collector opens the unlocked gate at the road, walks up the long drive, and goes up to the house to talk to the occupants http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/REX-MORGAN.htm
In England if you have an unlocked garden gate and a path leading to your front door there is "implied right of access" so anyone may walk through the gate to the door. You can permanently withdraw that implied right from any nuisance company like the *** by sending a short correctly worded letter.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 14, 2016, 04:29:36 PM
and what relevance does any of that have to the McCann case
Gates have a great deal to do with it Davel and here are four of them. 1. The 5A stair gate designed so that children up to 24 months can't open it, but certainly not designed to prevent a 47.5 month old from opening it. 2. The 5A garden gate which any toddler could open. 3 & 4. A documented event on a previous day when the missing child without adult help entered a garden, not 5A, through a gate, and left that garden probably through a different gate.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 14, 2016, 05:27:15 PM
Is central heating common in Luz, SIL? If so, what sort would it be? If not, would people have something else like oil filled radiators or electric fires? I'm mostly interested in relation to the holiday apartments.
In relation to the OC holiday homes, I would think the answer is probably no. Block 6 has a massive propane storage unit outside. Block 4 and block 5 appear to be older, and I can see no suggestion of gas storage.
Block 5 may well have gas hobs, common here, typically powered by a small gas cylinder under the kitchen units. We have a gas hob (and water and CH) powered by a large gas cylinder, which for safeties sake is stored well away from the house.
This may be a legal requirement (big cylinder away from house), but I do not know.
Let me move on to heating, and the potential risk of fire, which is what I think you are actually interested in.
I have not yet heard of any private dwelling being set on fire in the Algarve. We actually have a wooden ceiling, wooden units in the kitchen, and a wooden dining set. After that, it is non flammable concrete, marble, tiles and plaster. If you want to set my house on fire, try a big jerrycan of petrol and a blowtorch. My prediction is no, not going to happen.
There has been one case of a commercial site in Portimăo being hit by lightning, and burning most of it down, since we arrived here.
The fires here are mainly in the countryside. The vegetation grows, then dries out, then gets set off into a blaze by some incident.
Was 5A a fire hazard? I think not, but I have not been inside 5A, so I am expressing a personal opinion.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 14, 2016, 06:25:02 PM
In relation to the OC holiday homes, I would think the answer is probably no. Block 6 has a massive propane storage unit outside. Block 4 and block 5 appear to be older, and I can see no suggestion of gas storage.
Block 5 may well have gas hobs, common here, typically powered by a small gas cylinder under the kitchen units. We have a gas hob (and water and CH) powered by a large gas cylinder, which for safeties sake is stored well away from the house.
This may be a legal requirement (big cylinder away from house), but I do not know.
Let me move on to heating, and the potential risk of fire, which is what I think you are actually interested in.
I have not yet heard of any private dwelling being set on fire in the Algarve. We actually have a wooden ceiling, wooden units in the kitchen, and a wooden dining set. After that, it is non flammable concrete, marble, tiles and plaster. If you want to set my house on fire, try a big jerrycan of petrol and a blowtorch. My prediction is no, not going to happen.
There has been one case of a commercial site in Portimăo being hit by lightning, and burning most of it down, since we arrived here.
The fires here are mainly in the countryside. The vegetation grows, then dries out, then gets set off into a blaze by some incident.
Was 5A a fire hazard? I think not, but I have not been inside 5A, so I am expressing a personal opinion.
Thank you for your answer re. post in Luz. It is interesting that the Post Office is situated just along the road from the 24hr OC reception so I guess the street is rather busy during the PO's opening hours.
Regarding the heating - perhaps you or another poster knows what all the concrete turrets on the roof of Blocks 4 & 5 are for?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 14, 2016, 07:25:20 PM
In relation to the OC holiday homes, I would think the answer is probably no. Block 6 has a massive propane storage unit outside. Block 4 and block 5 appear to be older, and I can see no suggestion of gas storage.
Block 5 may well have gas hobs, common here, typically powered by a small gas cylinder under the kitchen units. We have a gas hob (and water and CH) powered by a large gas cylinder, which for safeties sake is stored well away from the house.
This may be a legal requirement (big cylinder away from house), but I do not know.
Let me move on to heating, and the potential risk of fire, which is what I think you are actually interested in.
I have not yet heard of any private dwelling being set on fire in the Algarve. We actually have a wooden ceiling, wooden units in the kitchen, and a wooden dining set. After that, it is non flammable concrete, marble, tiles and plaster. If you want to set my house on fire, try a big jerrycan of petrol and a blowtorch. My prediction is no, not going to happen.
There has been one case of a commercial site in Portimăo being hit by lightning, and burning most of it down, since we arrived here.
The fires here are mainly in the countryside. The vegetation grows, then dries out, then gets set off into a blaze by some incident.
Was 5A a fire hazard? I think not, but I have not been inside 5A, so I am expressing a personal opinion.
I was actually interested in heating in G5A, as someone suggested there would be some central heating.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 14, 2016, 07:25:45 PM
Thank you for your answer re. post in Luz. It is interesting that the Post Office is situated just along the road from the 24hr OC reception so I guess the street is rather busy during the PO's opening hours.
Regarding the heating - perhaps you or another poster knows what all the concrete turrets on the roof of Blocks 4 & 5 are for?
Without claiming certainty ...
These would be required for oven vents or fire vents. Please consider yourself lucky. I have now been out in the cold, dark and damp to check on our current situation.
Our oven vent (gas hob with air extractor) vents to a hard-to-see metal grille on the kitchen wall. Personally, I cannot see anything like that on block 5, though I would presume oven air extractors were in use.
Our fire (wood burning) vents through a 'concrete turret' on the roof. I think this is normally called a chimney in English. Not being facetious here. Our wood burner does a swift turn up into the lounge wall, which would make an obvious point of exit immediately outside our lounge. Instead, the chimney goes up through the master bedroom, then up through the top of the house.
Back to 5A and firetrap, should that be what you are exploring. Is there any evidence of a fire requiring a chimney in 5A?
Think carefully before you answer. I may have to regale you with the tales of how we get wood for wood-burning stoves out here, and trust me, it is boing.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 14, 2016, 07:50:18 PM
I was actually interested in heating in G5A, as someone suggested there would be some central heating.
I have never been inside 5A.
Based on the photos of 5A there are no radiators, an essential component of central heating.
One also needs space for a power source, typically gas, and a boiler. 5A does not appear to have this.
Or a wood burner and chimney.
I have been living in Portugal for 5 years now. In multiple places, some with CH and some not. For example, more modern places use air con that heats or cools, as per the season.
My new neighbour is out and about getting his new home fixed up as he likes it. He is in shorts, sandals, and sporting a very marked suntan. Me, I am finding it grey, wet, windy, and layers of clothes. Not English style, but Portuguese style. I have no heating on. It is not warm. It is not cold here.
If the idea is still - was 5A a potential fire source, my input would be this was highly unlikely. However, I have no idea how the McCanns evaluated this concept, so I would prefer to not speculate on that.
After all, I am uncertain of heating within 5A. As are others on the forum. Should the McCanns have known more than we know now?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 14, 2016, 08:07:55 PM
It's fine, that's enough thanks. The discussion was about the temperature in the children's bedroom if a window was open on 3rd May for 45 minutes. Someone assumed a) that there would have been central heating and b) it would have been turned on.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 14, 2016, 08:11:21 PM
Based on the photos of 5A there are no radiators, an essential component of central heating.
One also needs space for a power source, typically gas, and a boiler. 5A does not appear to have this.
Or a wood burner and chimney.
I have been living in Portugal for 5 years now. In multiple places, some with CH and some not. For example, more modern places use air con that heats or cools, as per the season.
My new neighbour is out and about getting his new home fixed up as he likes it. He is in shorts, sandals, and sporting a very marked suntan. Me, I am finding it grey, wet, windy, and layers of clothes. Not English style, but Portuguese style. I have no heating on. It is not warm. It is not cold here.
If the idea is still - was 5A a potential fire source, my input would be this was highly unlikely. However, I have no idea how the McCanns evaluated this concept, so I would prefer to not speculate on that.
After all, I am uncertain of heating within 5A. As are others on the forum. Should the McCanns have known more than we know now?
Looking at the photo of the kitchen, there is what appears to be a reasonable sized boiler in the top r/h corner. It is too small & incorrectly placed to be a hot water tank. IMO it is a conventional combi gas boiler which is flued up through the building out onto the roof. It is a hot-air system with the heat coming out through the vents seen on the walls in the interior rooms. Hot air heating is more than efficient, overpowering almost, so I doubt the apartment was cold. I stand to be corrected by any resident gch installers, though.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 14, 2016, 08:19:55 PM
Looking at the photo of the kitchen, there is what appears to be a reasonable sized boiler in the top r/h corner. It is too small & incorrectly placed to be a hot water tank. IMO it is a conventional combi gas boiler which is flued up through the building out onto the roof. It is a hot-air system with the heat coming out through the vents seen on the walls in the interior rooms. Hot air heating is more than efficient, overpowering almost, so I doubt the apartment was cold. I stand to be corrected by any resident gch installers, though.
I agree that does appear to be a boiler, positioned over what looks like a standard stop cock for water, positioned under the boiler.
So far, this gives me, a small boiler, no radiators, a requirement for a small bottle of gas (about the size of one kitchen unit). This is sounding a bit like Poker, which I have never played in my life before.
What happens now? Can one stick, twist or raise? Who gets to go next?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 14, 2016, 08:52:28 PM
I agree that does appear to be a boiler, positioned over what looks like a standard stop cock for water, positioned under the boiler.
So far, this gives me, a small boiler, no radiators, a requirement for a small bottle of gas (about the size of one kitchen unit). This is sounding a bit like Poker, which I have never played in my life before.
What happens now? Can one stick, twist or raise? Who gets to go next?
There are 3 utility hatches outside the door. I believe the complex was UK built. So - mains gas? I see it as the only explanation for the large flues on the roof.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 14, 2016, 09:03:14 PM
I agree that does appear to be a boiler, positioned over what looks like a standard stop cock for water, positioned under the boiler.
So far, this gives me, a small boiler, no radiators, a requirement for a small bottle of gas (about the size of one kitchen unit). This is sounding a bit like Poker, which I have never played in my life before.
What happens now? Can one stick, twist or raise? Who gets to go next?
I think I'll fold, I know little about such things. BTW poker terms are fold, call or raise. You seem to be playing Blackjack (or 21's) ha ha.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 14, 2016, 09:10:20 PM
There are 3 utility hatches outside the door. I believe the complex was UK built. So - mains gas? I see it as the only explanation for the large flues on the roof.
Might be, but highly unlikely.
I don't think who built the complex is relevant, in this respect.
I am not aware of anyone on mains gas, in Luz, in the sense you mean. Have a look at Streetview or Google Earth of that whacking great thing in front of block 6. That is a gigantic (OK very big) gas cylinder. Why stick in a gas cylinder if mains is available?
Personally, it looks as if the upper floors have wood burners. I definitely do not know for certain.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 14, 2016, 09:15:47 PM
I think I'll fold, I know little about such things. BTW poker terms are fold, call or raise. You seem to be playing Blackjack (or 21's) ha ha.
I did make clear I had not played Poker in my life. Blackjack I have heard of, but I cannot recall what it is about. 21. Is that a casino game, in which case I'm out. Or is there a solitaire version, in which case I might well have played it when you were a stripling.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 15, 2016, 02:44:15 AM
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/z/Apartment-plan.jpg In child bedroom there is a walled in vertical cavity for utilities in that corner of the room look at this plan
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 15, 2016, 09:00:46 AM
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/z/Apartment-plan.jpg In child bedroom there is a walled in vertical cavity for utilities in that corner of the room look at this plan
That's the 3 meter units you can see at the front door of 5A. Access from the front, not the bedroom.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 16, 2016, 03:02:40 AM
That's the 3 meter units you can see at the front door of 5A. Access from the front, not the bedroom.
Precisely Shining. IMO the set of 3 cupboards are probably one each for 5A, 5G, and 5K. I am not sure what the other cupboard (just above the 2 buckets) is for. http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/apartment5aexterior.jpg
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 16, 2016, 03:18:02 AM
Precisely Shining. IMO the set of 3 cupboards are probably one each for 5A, 5G, and 5K. I am not sure what the other cupboard (just above the 2 buckets) is for. http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/apartment5aexterior.jpg
Without looking at the things up close, I can't tell. The way the building is stacked I would have expected 3 x water meters and 3 x electricity meters. It does not appear to be rigged up that way, which doesn't make sense. But I have come to expect that, in Portugal.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on February 16, 2016, 08:03:04 AM
Stay On Topic, Please.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2016, 03:15:41 AM
Expert MWT's theory start is the child wandered out of the apartment through the lounge sliding door, the stairgate and the street gate.
There is document in the files that says the sliding door was left open a little so it could be slided open from outside (remember there is no handle outside so you need to leave it open a bit or it's difficult to get back in).
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 17, 2016, 03:55:16 AM
Expert MWT's theory start is the child wandered out of the apartment through the lounge sliding door, the stairgate and the street gate.
There is document in the files that says the sliding door was left open a little so it could be slided open from outside (remember there is no handle outside so you need to leave it open a bit or it's difficult to get back in).
Kate's book p 69 "The long curtains on the inside of the glass door were drawn and the doors themselves closed but not locked."
Does it matter whether closed means fully closed or open a tiny bit? If you could get in from the outside (as they did) it was easier still to get out from the inside.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2016, 04:05:22 AM
Kate's book p 69 "The long curtains on the inside of the glass door were drawn and the doors themselves closed but not locked."
Does it matter whether closed means fully closed or open a tiny bit? If you could get in from the outside (as they did) it was easier still to get out from the inside.
I agree with you ShiningInLuz that it is easy for a child to open that sliding door. And it's proved by the photo in the files of an even younger shorter child operating an identical sliding door upstairs
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 26, 2016, 10:41:45 PM
I'm not sure if this case has been referred to on the forum before, but this article is certainly worth reading.
GERRY Gallacher, 59, was part of a team tasked with finding lost five-year-old Stephen McKerron, who went missing from an Ayrshire holiday camp in 1988.
The police search was heavily criticised when Stephen was found dead 16 days later.
To this day, Gerry is still haunted by the missed chances that could have saved his life.
VERY EARLY in an officer's career the realisation dawns that no matter how hard you try, you cannot simply solve every crime of bring every incident you face to a successful conclusion.
Even more so if the situation or crime has involved a child or some other vulnerable individual.
Stephen McKerron was just five when he went missing from Wonder Westworld Holiday Centre on September 17, 1988.
His disappearance within hours of arriving at the camp sparked one of the largest searches ever seen in Scotland. The tragedy was intensified by the fact that there were several missed opportunities, which may have led to a happier outcome.
Mistakes were made by the public and police alike and those errors probably cause many involved to occasionally pause and reflect. I know I do.
Stephen had gone to Wonder Westworld with an aunt and uncle for a week’s holiday.
Like many kids, he’d been taken out of school a few days before the beginning of the holidays, but within half an hour of arriving at the camp he’d gone missing.
Although there were initial concerns that Stephen may have been abducted, they were offset by a witness who saw a boy fitting his description and wearing the same clothes climbing a six foot perimeter fence.
There were further sightings of a boy walking alone on a road towards nearby Ayr.
Search parameters were established by senior management and assistance was eventually sought from the RAF, which provided a helicopter equipped with infrared sensors.
I was one of scores of detectives drafted in to assist by interviewing staff and guests. I’m sure most of the inquiry team were satisfied that Stephen was missing and not the victim of foul play, but that didn’t make things any easier.
The surrounding area was bleak, cold and marshy and he was only a child, woefully underdressed for the conditions and night-time temperatures.
In the belief that he was lost I found myself sometimes delaying inquiries I’d been given just so I could take a drive around the surrounding terrain in the forlorn hope that I’d catch sight of him or maybe hear him call out. Not long into the investigation I needed to speak to a procurator fiscal at Glasgow Sheriff Court about an unrelated matter.
As I stood waiting I began a conversation with a sergeant.
That chance meeting and the resulting conversation would bring me into conflict with the senior officers in charge of Stephen’s disappearance.
It almost led to me being thrown off the inquiry, and it remains a source of regret that I could have been more forceful in my arguments.
The sergeant had previously worked on a similar type of enquiry involving a missing boy who was roughly the same age.
In that case, however, the boy – also on foot and alone – had managed to walk a far greater distance than the area designated for search in Stephen’s case.
At the briefing that evening I relayed this new information to senior management and expressed my belief that the allocated search parameters were too narrow.
I was told that “experts” had been consulted when establishing the search area. The expert was, in fact, a paediatrician.
When I suggested that consulting a topographer would be more beneficial than a paediatrician and reiterated the distance covered by the boy in the other case, I was met with icy glares and even icier responses. “That’s the advice we’ve been given and that’s what we’ll stick to,” I was told in no uncertain terms. By this time I could feel colleagues almost creating a physical space around me as a means of distancing themselves from my suggestions.
Throughout my police service I’d never shied from conflict and besides, this was too important to remain silent about.
I forcefully made my point again that a different type of expert should be consulted and have the search parameters redrawn, but I wasn’t going to alter their opinions.
As I made a final futile effort to change their minds I was nudged by a colleague who whispered to me: “Shut it, you’re about to get binned.” In other words, thrown off the inquiry.
On October 3, 1988, some 16 days after he’d gone missing, Stephen was found dead by a passing hillwalker.
He was curled up in a ditch, possibly trying to shelter from the cold. He was six miles from the camp and one mile out of the established search parameters.
If a chain is only as strong as the weakest link then the chain relating to Stephen’s disappearance was weak from the outset and remained that way for the length of the enquiry.
There were so many “what ifs” and had some of them been acted upon, Stephen’s life might have been saved.
Why didn’t Stephen’s aunt and uncle keep a closer watch over him at the camp?
Why didn’t the person who’d seen him climbing a fence to the outside of the camp intervene?
Why didn’t any of the four motorists who saw a small, unaccompanied young boy walking a busy road not check to see if he was okay or tell police?
Why did the police limit the search area to five miles and take three days to make use of a specially equipped helicopter?
Why wasn’t I more aggressive in demanding the search area be extended? The only salve to my own conscience, I suppose, is that no matter how much I protested, the senior officers in charge had made their minds up and would never have changed course.
At the subsequent fatal accident inquiry, the officers in charge conceded that should the same situation arise, they would adopt a different approach.
Why do I think Stephen ran away? I think he was a little boy who was missing his mother and father, who was homesick and who was trying to make his way home to Hamilton, which makes the whole incident even sadder.
As I said, some inquiries remain with you. ========================================================================
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 26, 2016, 11:27:51 PM
GERRY Gallacher, 59, was part of a team tasked with finding lost five-year-old Stephen McKerron, who went missing from an Ayrshire holiday camp in 1988.
The police search was heavily criticised when Stephen was found dead 16 days later.
To this day, Gerry is still haunted by the missed chances that could have saved his life.
VERY EARLY in an officer's career the realisation dawns that no matter how hard you try, you cannot simply solve every crime of bring every incident you face to a successful conclusion.
Even more so if the situation or crime has involved a child or some other vulnerable individual.
Stephen McKerron was just five when he went missing from Wonder Westworld Holiday Centre on September 17, 1988.
His disappearance within hours of arriving at the camp sparked one of the largest searches ever seen in Scotland. The tragedy was intensified by the fact that there were several missed opportunities, which may have led to a happier outcome.
Mistakes were made by the public and police alike and those errors probably cause many involved to occasionally pause and reflect. I know I do.
Stephen had gone to Wonder Westworld with an aunt and uncle for a week’s holiday.
Like many kids, he’d been taken out of school a few days before the beginning of the holidays, but within half an hour of arriving at the camp he’d gone missing.
Although there were initial concerns that Stephen may have been abducted, they were offset by a witness who saw a boy fitting his description and wearing the same clothes climbing a six foot perimeter fence.
There were further sightings of a boy walking alone on a road towards nearby Ayr.
Search parameters were established by senior management and assistance was eventually sought from the RAF, which provided a helicopter equipped with infrared sensors.
I was one of scores of detectives drafted in to assist by interviewing staff and guests. I’m sure most of the inquiry team were satisfied that Stephen was missing and not the victim of foul play, but that didn’t make things any easier.
The surrounding area was bleak, cold and marshy and he was only a child, woefully underdressed for the conditions and night-time temperatures.
In the belief that he was lost I found myself sometimes delaying inquiries I’d been given just so I could take a drive around the surrounding terrain in the forlorn hope that I’d catch sight of him or maybe hear him call out. Not long into the investigation I needed to speak to a procurator fiscal at Glasgow Sheriff Court about an unrelated matter.
As I stood waiting I began a conversation with a sergeant.
That chance meeting and the resulting conversation would bring me into conflict with the senior officers in charge of Stephen’s disappearance.
It almost led to me being thrown off the inquiry, and it remains a source of regret that I could have been more forceful in my arguments.
The sergeant had previously worked on a similar type of enquiry involving a missing boy who was roughly the same age.
In that case, however, the boy – also on foot and alone – had managed to walk a far greater distance than the area designated for search in Stephen’s case.
At the briefing that evening I relayed this new information to senior management and expressed my belief that the allocated search parameters were too narrow.
I was told that “experts” had been consulted when establishing the search area. The expert was, in fact, a paediatrician.
When I suggested that consulting a topographer would be more beneficial than a paediatrician and reiterated the distance covered by the boy in the other case, I was met with icy glares and even icier responses. “That’s the advice we’ve been given and that’s what we’ll stick to,” I was told in no uncertain terms. By this time I could feel colleagues almost creating a physical space around me as a means of distancing themselves from my suggestions.
Throughout my police service I’d never shied from conflict and besides, this was too important to remain silent about.
I forcefully made my point again that a different type of expert should be consulted and have the search parameters redrawn, but I wasn’t going to alter their opinions.
As I made a final futile effort to change their minds I was nudged by a colleague who whispered to me: “Shut it, you’re about to get binned.” In other words, thrown off the inquiry.
On October 3, 1988, some 16 days after he’d gone missing, Stephen was found dead by a passing hillwalker.
He was curled up in a ditch, possibly trying to shelter from the cold. He was six miles from the camp and one mile out of the established search parameters.
If a chain is only as strong as the weakest link then the chain relating to Stephen’s disappearance was weak from the outset and remained that way for the length of the enquiry.
There were so many “what ifs” and had some of them been acted upon, Stephen’s life might have been saved.
Why didn’t Stephen’s aunt and uncle keep a closer watch over him at the camp?
Why didn’t the person who’d seen him climbing a fence to the outside of the camp intervene?
Why didn’t any of the four motorists who saw a small, unaccompanied young boy walking a busy road not check to see if he was okay or tell police?
Why did the police limit the search area to five miles and take three days to make use of a specially equipped helicopter?
Why wasn’t I more aggressive in demanding the search area be extended? The only salve to my own conscience, I suppose, is that no matter how much I protested, the senior officers in charge had made their minds up and would never have changed course.
At the subsequent fatal accident inquiry, the officers in charge conceded that should the same situation arise, they would adopt a different approach.
Why do I think Stephen ran away? I think he was a little boy who was missing his mother and father, who was homesick and who was trying to make his way home to Hamilton, which makes the whole incident even sadder.
As I said, some inquiries remain with you. ========================================================================
I remember the case very well indeed, Misty. Heartbreaking. I have thought of it often in relation to the walk and wandered theory in Madeleine's case. The holiday camp is now called Craig Tara. A look at a satellite map of the area will give an idea of what the searchers were up against. The last occasion that I know of when an older child went missing ... a helicopter was deployed immediately and circled the area for many hours so I would say that lessons have been learned. Stephen managed to get himself to a distance of six miles in a rural setting and if I remember correctly died within sight of a farmhouse. A very tragic case indeed.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Carana on February 27, 2016, 11:09:41 AM
I remember the case very well indeed, Misty. Heartbreaking. I have thought of it often in relation to the walk and wandered theory in Madeleine's case. The holiday camp is now called Craig Tara. A look at a satellite map of the area will give an idea of what the searchers were up against. The last occasion that I know of when an older child went missing ... a helicopter was deployed immediately and circled the area for many hours so I would say that lessons have been learned. Stephen managed to get himself to a distance of six miles in a rural setting and if I remember correctly died within sight of a farmhouse. A very tragic case indeed.
How terribly sad. 8(8-))
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on February 27, 2016, 09:25:47 PM
Woke wondered, got run over and was taken away to save someones skin is as valuable a theory...doesn't explain the dog alerts though?..might explain Tanners sighting of someone carrying a child in that stupid position though
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 27, 2016, 09:28:56 PM
Woke wondered, got run over and was taken away to save someones skin is as valuable a theory...doesn't explain the dog alerts though?..might explain Tanners sighting of someone carrying a child in that stupid position though
the alerts are unimportant as not corroborated
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on February 28, 2016, 02:30:15 AM
If a body is in a location and then moved elsewhere, Eddie would alert there, but there would probably be no human-scientist-deteectable forensic evidence there. Intelligence Davel. Suggest you read up on what Mr Grime says.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 28, 2016, 09:50:41 AM
If a body is in a location and then moved elsewhere, Eddie would alert there, but there would probably be no human-scientist-deteectable forensic evidence there. Intelligence Davel. Suggest you read up on what Mr Grime says.
I have read what Grime said and it is very simple...the alerts have no evidential reliability
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 28, 2016, 10:22:52 AM
the statement you have made is nonsensical and you obviously have nothing to support it
Tis the trouble with the McCann supporters. They don't understand when they are being supported.
If the McCanns were ever put on trial (won't happen) and I happened to be their defence lawyer (are we having a laugh here) and I could get the doggies introduced into the court proceedings (which would not be allowed), then I would bust a gut to get Eddie and Keela on board (never going to happen).
The McCanns should embrace the dogs. The McCann supporters should embrace the dogs.
Do I have anything to support this? Yes. It's all in the PJ Files.
Alternative. Your unsupported assertion, to which I have replied.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 28, 2016, 12:21:48 PM
Tis the trouble with the McCann supporters. They don't understand when they are being supported.
If the McCanns were ever put on trial (won't happen) and I happened to be their defence lawyer (are we having a laugh here) and I could get the doggies introduced into the court proceedings (which would not be allowed), then I would bust a gut to get Eddie and Keela on board (never going to happen).
The McCanns should embrace the dogs. The McCann supporters should embrace the dogs.
Do I have anything to support this? Yes. It's all in the PJ Files.
Alternative. Your unsupported assertion, to which I have replied.
I have already posted that the best dogs in the world found no evidence that Maddie had died...you are still not making any sense
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 28, 2016, 12:48:26 PM
I have already posted that the best dogs in the world found no evidence that Maddie had died...you are still not making any sense
I may be not making any sense to you.
However, if I say that I would be happy to bat on the McCann defence team on this point, I am making sense to others on the forum.
It is not my fault if you are unable to make sense of such a simple position.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2016, 01:05:23 PM
Both Harrison and Grime provided caveats.
Alternative explanations for the alerts were not thoroughly investigated.
That is therefore a far cry from stating that an unidentified and undated speck of blood on a freezer drawer was clear proof of stuffing a child into a freeezer.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 28, 2016, 01:12:44 PM
Don't worry. You have already shown you cannot understand something so simple.
I posted that I would be happy to use the dogs in defence of the McCanns. If this makes no sense to you, please continue to misunderstand it.
now you are being rude......i understand what you are saying re using the dogs in defence...which is ridiculous.....but you cannot explain what you mean by the pattern of the alerts being important...you have not explained that
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 28, 2016, 02:48:21 PM
Alternative explanations for the alerts were not thoroughly investigated.
That is therefore a far cry from stating that an unidentified and undated speck of blood on a freezer drawer was clear proof of stuffing a child into a freeezer.
Like ???
The caveats were there, sure, but in reality there is no corroboration for remnant death scent on its own by any scientific mean, it relies on other evidence
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on March 02, 2016, 04:14:19 AM
Thorough checks were made and it was confirmed there had been no documented deaths in that apartment since it was built.
How does one check thoroughly an apartment of the age of 5A?
Wasn't the owner (coincidentally Mrs McCann) the sole owner because her husband had died? I don't know where or when the death occurred, and to be honest, I don't really care. I cannot envisage a check that could thoroughly rule out sources such as cross-contamination.
Ex-pat land is chokka with old ex-pats, so there is a regular source of dead people, hopefully infrequent. And the local Portuguese and even visitors can shuttle off the mortal coil here.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on March 02, 2016, 09:33:11 PM
How does one check thoroughly an apartment of the age of 5A?
Wasn't the owner (coincidentally Mrs McCann) the sole owner because her husband had died? I don't know where or when the death occurred, and to be honest, I don't really care. I cannot envisage a check that could thoroughly rule out sources such as cross-contamination.
Ex-pat land is chokka with old ex-pats, so there is a regular source of dead people, hopefully infrequent. And the local Portuguese and even visitors can shuttle off the mortal coil here.
Where are the deaths of non-Portuguese residents recorded please, Shining? Is each death merely recorded in the records of the parish where it occurs?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: mercury on March 02, 2016, 09:54:41 PM
How does one check thoroughly an apartment of the age of 5A?
Wasn't the owner (coincidentally Mrs McCann) the sole owner because her husband had died? I don't know where or when the death occurred, and to be honest, I don't really care. I cannot envisage a check that could thoroughly rule out sources such as cross-contamination.
Ex-pat land is chokka with old ex-pats, so there is a regular source of dead people, hopefully infrequent. And the local Portuguese and even visitors can shuttle off the mortal coil here.
Not wishing by any means to bring the dogs in for another ding dong, but IMO cross contamination as an explanation for only that apartment having it , the one a missing child was last seen, and no other places is stretching it (especially if you factor in your regular source of dead people)
PS Mr Mccann's obituary said he died in Liverpool
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on March 02, 2016, 11:30:14 PM
"... We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of ..." Amaral chapter 16
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on March 03, 2016, 12:04:18 AM
"... We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of ..." Amaral chapter 16
OC was built in 1991 wasn't it? How many previous occupants of 5a did Team Amaral speak to?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pegasus on March 03, 2016, 12:32:40 AM
4 people (DJA DMA MWM RMM) bought 5A in 2001, later 2 were bought out, and 1 passed away (not in 5A) so by 2007 sole owner was RMM
Many thanks.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 21, 2017, 12:14:28 PM
I wonder why Mark Williams-Thomas referred to 'legal restrictions' on what he could say when he appeared on 'This morning' therefore. He is still peddling woke and wandered, by the way, despite never explaining the open window.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on February 21, 2017, 12:18:42 PM
I wonder why Mark Williams-Thomas referred to 'legal restrictions' on what he could say when he appeared on 'This morning' therefore. He is still peddling woke and wandered, by the way, despite never explaining the open window.
Perhaps he doesn't believe the open window, but can't says so for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 21, 2017, 02:45:03 PM
Perhaps he doesn't believe the open window, but can't says so for obvious reasons.
He described the patio door as 'unsecured' which was also a bit strange. He said Madeleine obviously knew her parents were out because she'd asked them that morning 'where were you when the twins cried'; (he is going with the first version, just the twins crying). He said it was very hot and there was no air-con (?) He thinks Madeleine, knowing they were at the Tapas, left the apartment through that 'unsecured' door and went looking for them.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 21, 2017, 04:19:51 PM
New story in the Sun.
Mark Williams Thomas.
The wake and wandered theory again.
I wonder why now....
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 22, 2017, 07:34:34 AM
Mark Williams-Thomas and This Morning getting the McCann treatment. (by proxy, of course, they didn't say it...or did they?) No wonder few people poke their heads above the parapet. Why would This Morning care if they were in the McCann's good books or not? Why would anyone? What legal restrictions are stopping people from speaking openly about this case?
Kate and Gerry McCann hit out at ITV's This Morning for using Mark Williams-Thomas, now an investigative journalist, for voicing his 'astonishing new theory' about Madeleine's disappearance, a close friend said on Tuesday.
Clarence Mitchell said: 'This is pure speculation and as such Kate and Gerry will not be dignifying it with any sort comment whatsoever.'
A source close to the pair said: 'It's baffling a television programme had him on as an authority on the Madeleine case. He's re-invented himself as a criminologist but when did he become an expert on this high profile case? Never!' The friend added: 'He said he had received a statement from the McCann's saying they were pleased there was an on-going investigation which they hoped would unearth some news but they haven't been in contact with him, neither has their spokesperson.
'It seems he was re-hashing a years-old statement that was circulated to all the media.'
The McCann source added: 'With no disrespect to this investigative reporter he is forever trying to latch himself onto the Maddie case. He's said this all before and he once stood outside Apartment 5a reporting his same old belief. 'Allowing him on This Morning to air his views won't help the show get in Kate and Gerry's good books. But they're not going to fall out with him over this. It's all based on speculation and it's a free country and they've got enough to be dealing with.'
Mr Williams-Thomas boasts he has 'far-reaching experience of working at the centre of high profile investigations.' The self-styled commentator boasts on his website how he has 'over the last decade reported on the biggest crime stories.'
Mark Williams-Thomas and This Morning getting the McCann treatment. (by proxy, of course, they didn't say it...or did they?) No wonder few people poke their heads above the parapet. Why would This Morning care if they were in the McCann's good books or not? Why would anyone? What legal restrictions are stopping people from speaking openly about this case?
Kate and Gerry McCann hit out at ITV's This Morning for using Mark Williams-Thomas, now an investigative journalist, for voicing his 'astonishing new theory' about Madeleine's disappearance, a close friend said on Tuesday.
Clarence Mitchell said: 'This is pure speculation and as such Kate and Gerry will not be dignifying it with any sort comment whatsoever.'
A source close to the pair said: 'It's baffling a television programme had him on as an authority on the Madeleine case. He's re-invented himself as a criminologist but when did he become an expert on this high profile case? Never!' The friend added: 'He said he had received a statement from the McCann's saying they were pleased there was an on-going investigation which they hoped would unearth some news but they haven't been in contact with him, neither has their spokesperson.
'It seems he was re-hashing a years-old statement that was circulated to all the media.'
The McCann source added: 'With no disrespect to this investigative reporter he is forever trying to latch himself onto the Maddie case. He's said this all before and he once stood outside Apartment 5a reporting his same old belief. 'Allowing him on This Morning to air his views won't help the show get in Kate and Gerry's good books. But they're not going to fall out with him over this. It's all based on speculation and it's a free country and they've got enough to be dealing with.'
Mr Williams-Thomas boasts he has 'far-reaching experience of working at the centre of high profile investigations.' The self-styled commentator boasts on his website how he has 'over the last decade reported on the biggest crime stories.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4246558/Journalist-Did-Madeleine-McCann-just-wander-off.html#ixzz4ZOe2DxrI Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Certainly wandering off can't be the whole story. Would Madeleine have closed the doors and gates behind her? Would Kate have panicked a stage the abduction scene because Madeleine had wandered off? A parent doesn't do that IMO.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 22, 2017, 09:10:28 AM
Certainly wandering off can't be the whole story. Would Madeleine have closed the doors and gates behind her? Would Kate have panicked a stage the abduction scene because Madeleine had wandered off? A parent doesn't do that IMO.
We have discussed M W-T's theory and it's faults before. It's been around for years. I see his appearance as an exercise in offering an alternative to the abduction story to see what happens. After all, the media have reported 'Madeleine's abduction' for years as if it was beyond doubt.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 22, 2017, 09:56:13 AM
We have discussed M W-T's theory and it's faults before. It's been around for years. I see his appearance as an exercise in offering an alternative to the abduction story to see what happens. After all, the media have reported 'Madeleine's abduction' for years as if it was beyond doubt.
It seems a half baked theory.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 22, 2017, 09:58:05 AM
As I said earlier "Certainly wandering off can't be the whole story. Would Madeleine have closed the doors and gates behind her? Would Kate have panicked and staged the abduction scene because Madeleine had wandered off? A parent doesn't do that IMO"
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 22, 2017, 10:42:08 AM
As I said earlier "Certainly wandering off can't be the whole story. Would Madeleine have closed the doors and gates behind her? Would Kate have panicked and staged the abduction scene because Madeleine had wandered off? A parent doesn't do that IMO"
We are all speculating.
As were and are the McCann's as regards abduction.
Abduction is not a fact.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on February 22, 2017, 10:44:59 AM
As I said earlier "Certainly wandering off can't be the whole story. Would Madeleine have closed the doors and gates behind her? Would Kate have panicked and staged the abduction scene because Madeleine had wandered off? A parent doesn't do that IMO"
We only have one person's statement to say that was so. No one else can support that.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 22, 2017, 10:48:59 AM
We only have one person's statement to say that was so. No one else can support that.
That is life at times. We are alone at times, does that mean we aren't going to be believed when we report things. I think it is right to be somewhat suspicious of all reports for there are liars, but there are those that tell the truth too.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 22, 2017, 10:55:05 AM
Should Kate have asked another to go along with her on her check?
That's not what I said. It was an uncorroborated observation.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on February 22, 2017, 02:38:09 PM
Posters please note that this thread has been resurrected in the light of Mark Williams-Thomas' latest comments on breakfast TV.
It is interesting that some media are referring to this as a new theory when we know it isn't. The response by the parents to this restated theory by Williams-Thomas is also extremely interesting given that the fate of the child is still unknown.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 22, 2017, 03:09:10 PM
I think you are going to get a plethora of these stories in the run-up to 3 May 2017.
I am currently getting a spike on my blog about views of woke and wandered. Since I haven't written anything on that for yonks, I presume the driver is the This Morning piece.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on February 22, 2017, 03:26:28 PM
The woke, wandered and met with an accident theory is in my view the most credible of all the espoused therories around. Where it differs from MWT's theory is that he speculates that Madeleine was abducted after exiting the apartment. I don't hold with that view since abduction is not the sort of crime which occurs by chance whereas accidents do. If she met with a fatal accident at night with few people around it is not outwith the bounds of possibilities that the culprit panicked and removed her from the scene for any number of reasons.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 22, 2017, 03:47:54 PM
The woke, wandered and met with an accident theory is in my view the most credible of all the espoused therories around. Where it differs from MWT's theory is that he speculates that Madeleine was abducted after exiting the apartment. I don't hold with that view since abduction is not the sort of crime which occurs by chance whereas accidents do. If she met with a fatal accident at night with few people around it is not outwith the bounds of possibilities that the culprit panicked and removed her from the scene for any number of reasons.
Exiting via the patio doors which she carefully slid back behind her and negotiating her way out to the pavement where she would most likely have walked down hill towards an area familiar to her and to which the light beckoned her she simply vanished. Not likely, John.
Then there is the problem of the open window and raised shutter to be addressed.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on February 22, 2017, 04:25:09 PM
The woke, wandered and met with an accident theory is in my view the most credible of all the espoused therories around. Where it differs from MWT's theory is that he speculates that Madeleine was abducted after exiting the apartment. I don't hold with that view since abduction is not the sort of crime which occurs by chance whereas accidents do. If she met with a fatal accident at night with few people around it is not outwith the bounds of possibilities that the culprit panicked and removed her from the scene for any number of reasons.
Quote
As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared.
joao Carlos, final PJ report.
I can't, immediately, find the passage in Kate's book where she demolishes woke and wandered.
But I'm sure someone will oblige.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 22, 2017, 05:01:52 PM
The woke, wandered and met with an accident theory is in my view the most credible of all the espoused therories around. Where it differs from MWT's theory is that he speculates that Madeleine was abducted after exiting the apartment. I don't hold with that view since abduction is not the sort of crime which occurs by chance whereas accidents do. If she met with a fatal accident at night with few people around it is not outwith the bounds of possibilities that the culprit panicked and removed her from the scene for any number of reasons.
You would assume that a fatal accident need not have a culprit? Though you would also assume that for her not to be found, it would have been likely that someone would have found her and moved her for unknown reasons.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 22, 2017, 05:29:21 PM
That's not what I said. It was an uncorroborated observation.
If you go through a gate and close it behind you, how can anyone corroborate that that gate was open or closed prior to that happening unless another person was there at that very instance. That or CCTV footage, but we know there was none of that.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on February 22, 2017, 06:15:25 PM
If you go through a gate and close it behind you, how can anyone corroborate that that gate was open or closed prior to that happening unless another person was there at that very instance. That or CCTV footage, but we know there was none of that.
That would have answered a lot of questions.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 22, 2017, 06:17:41 PM
What about woke and wandered during a botched burglary? A person with a key could have entered via the front door and left it open as he was looking for something to steal. While this was happening Madeleine woke and left by the open front door therefore no issues with the gates etc.
The burglar concerned that the child had seen him abducts her and ties her up in his vehicle. Then Comes back and makes the apartment look like a kidnapper had come in through the window. (I wouldn't say a burglar always thinks logically.)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Angelo222 on February 22, 2017, 06:20:24 PM
Exiting via the patio doors which she carefully slid back behind her and negotiating her way out to the pavement where she would most likely have walked down hill towards an area familiar to her and to which the light beckoned her she simply vanished. Not likely, John.
Then there is the problem of the open window and raised shutter to be addressed.
Did Kate McCann ever say that the patio door was closed? As for the open shutter and window I have explained that several times previously.
Did Kate McCann ever say that the patio door was closed? As for the open shutter and window I have explained that several times previously.
It is implied in her book at least, somewhere I have been aware Kate says Madeleine could not have opened the door and the gates. Was it an interview or her book?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Angelo222 on February 22, 2017, 06:28:25 PM
A 2-year-old got out of the family home the other day and ended up dead. A 4-year-old would have no difficulty whatsoever.
But did that 2 year old shut the door behind them? I think kids of that age 2 -4 wold leave a trail of evidence behind them. As Kate approached the gates and saw them open she would have immediately sensed Madeleine had wandered and raised the alarm immediately.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on February 22, 2017, 06:37:08 PM
But did that 2 year old shut the door behind them? I think kids of that age 2 -4 wold leave a trail of evidence behind them. As Kate approached the gates and saw them open she would have immediately sensed Madeleine had wandered and raised the alarm immediately.
Not necessarily. Both Gerry and Matt had been there since she left at 8.30. Either of them could have left the gate open.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Angelo222 on February 22, 2017, 06:41:43 PM
The McCanns have to try and demolish the woke and wandered theory because if it is ever proved the focus for responsibility will go straight back to them and their failed duty of care towards the missing child.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Angelo222 on February 22, 2017, 06:45:19 PM
It is implied in her book at least, somewhere I have been aware Kate says Madeleine could not have opened the door and the gates. Was it an interview or her book?
Every parent knows that children climb obstacles.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 22, 2017, 06:49:50 PM
The McCanns have to try and demolish the woke and wandered theory because if it is ever proved the focus for responsibility will go straight back to them and their failed duty of care towards the missing child.
But if the gates were climbable some of the blame could go back to Ocean Club for not taking sufficient care.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on February 22, 2017, 07:21:02 PM
No the blame would lie fair and square with the McCanns.
If for example you have a stair gate at home and your toddler climbs over it, you don't claim that the manufacturer is to blame.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 22, 2017, 07:31:11 PM
But if the gates were climbable some of the blame could go back to Ocean Club for not taking sufficient care.
I sometimes wonder if you're for real. In your world all gates would be too high for a child to climb over? How high is that then? Higher than a surrounding wall or fence?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 22, 2017, 07:34:29 PM
I sometimes wonder if you're for real. In your world all gates would be too high for a child to climb over? How high is that then? Higher than a surrounding wall or fence?
By observation, Rob will try to find any excuse for thew McCann's behaviour.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on February 22, 2017, 07:39:21 PM
I sometimes wonder if you're for real. In your world all gates would be too high for a child to climb over? How high is that then? Higher than a surrounding wall or fence?
As per the building code for balustrades something like 1.100 meters of non climbable material. David should have, you know erm, definitely checked this before they booked the, erm, holiday.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 22, 2017, 07:56:12 PM
At home it is, but when you rent some of the responsibility falls back onto the landlord. in NZ: http://www.nzpif.org.nz/news/view/57831 "As a rental property owner, you are in the business of operating a rental property. A central part of the new Act is that the Person Conducting a Business or Undertaking (known as a PCBU) will have the primary health and safety duty under the new law. As the owner of the rental property, you are the PCBU and have a primary duty of care. WorkSafe said that, "A PCBU has a duty to ensure health and safety ‘so far as is reasonably practicable’. It’s about what the PCBU can reasonably do to manage health and safety"."
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 22, 2017, 09:12:58 PM
Absolutely. A landlord must make sure a gate is fit for purpose, but doesn't have to consider the safety of anyone using the gate for the wrong purpose, such as climbing over it.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 23, 2017, 07:01:00 AM
Absolutely. A landlord must make sure a gate is fit for purpose, but doesn't have to consider the safety of anyone using the gate for the wrong purpose, such as climbing over it.
when you consider McDonalds got sued for 2 million dollars for selling their coffee too hot, I think resorts where young children will be staying would be prudent to consider whether their security gates can be climbed by children.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 23, 2017, 07:35:59 AM
when you consider McDonalds got sued for 2 million dollars for selling their coffee too hot, I think resorts where young children will be staying would be prudent to consider whether their security gates can be climbed by children.
So what should be done with all the tapas parents who left their children unattended, with infrequent checks lasting a few seconds ?
That is nothing to do with the resort, especially when they were offered back up services, including baby sitters ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 23, 2017, 07:56:03 AM
No doubt he'll be blaming Dave next for organising the holiday ?{)(**
Or Mark Warner for accepting it. Could even be my fault. I know an airline pilot if only he hadn't flown that day... I could have stopped him. OR how about thier line manager for giving them time off work...
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 23, 2017, 10:49:08 AM
Evidently though, you condone the McCann's and the rest of the group's actions in leaving their children unattended, with infrequent and short checks.
You would need the PJ to apply that ruling across the board and it maybe that many tourists are doing this while in Portugal. Countries will support their tourist trade and they are not going to rock the boat just to set an example.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 23, 2017, 10:51:34 AM
This is a rental situation so one should expect the facilities to be safe and up to the standards.
Expect a gate to open and close, well from the mothers evidence it did open and close! However, who was the last person to use the gate and did they close it? That person would have something to answer.
Now lets look at who would be responsible for a child at the beach walks into the sea unattended and drowns... ahhh the seas fault no doubt!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 23, 2017, 10:56:05 AM
You would need the PJ to apply that ruling across the board and it maybe that many tourists are doing this while in Portugal. Countries will support their tourist trade and they are not going to rock the boat just to set an example.
The Tapas group gambled with their childrens saftey- one of them lost. That is the bottom line! Gate or no gate not even worth considering as an accessory to negligent parents.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 23, 2017, 10:57:06 AM
Expect a gate to open and close, well from the mothers evidence it did open and close! However, who was the last person to use the gate and did they close it? That person would have something to answer.
Now lets look at who would be responsible for a child at the beach walks into the sea unattended and drowns... ahhh the seas fault no doubt!
Have you got an example where the parents were charged when a child drowned in the sea? I can't think of any around here except when the excursion was a school trip or a adventure tourism situation.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on February 23, 2017, 10:57:25 AM
To begin with it was established by the PJ authorities that the McCanns childcare arrangements did not meet the criterion necessary to accuse them of abandonment.
Madeleine was not the first child to go missing at that complex - the fact that they had a Missing Child procedure proves that. None of the parents of those missing children have ever been charged with anything.
It has been an accepted custom and practice for decades that people on holiday do make arrangements to leave their children alone while they go to dinner - or a bar or whatever. No-one has ever been prosecuted for doing that.
What about parents who use baby alarms when they go out and do not check on their children at all? Surely if anyone fits the criterion for abandonment - they come very close. None of them have been prosecuted.
MW along with other tour operators, hoteliers etc offered the Listening Service to their clients as an extra service for them to take up if required. Surely this must mean they are guilty of inciting the abandonment of children at those venues? The fact that it was not offered at PdL is irrelevant to the principle.
The whole idea of the McCanns being charged with abandonment in these holiday circumstances is preposterous.
IMO
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 23, 2017, 10:59:44 AM
The Tapas group gambled with their childrens saftey- one of them lost. That is the bottom line! Gate or no gate not even worth considering as an accessory to negligent parents.
Personally I think if she woke and wandered she went out via the front door (bungled burglary) not the sliding door and two gates. But in reality I don't favour that scenario at all.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 23, 2017, 11:00:47 AM
To begin with it was established by the PJ authorities that the McCanns childcare arrangements did not meet the criterion necessary to accuse them of abandonment.
Madeleine was not the first child to go missing at that complex - the fact that they had a Missing Child procedure proves that. None of the parents of those missing children have ever been charged with anything.
It has been an accepted custom and practice for decades that people on holiday do make arrangements to leave their children alone while they go to dinner - or a bar or whatever. No-one has ever been prosecuted for doing that.
What about parents who use baby alarms when they go out and do not check on their children at all? Surely if anyone fits the criterion for abandonment - they come very close. None of them have been prosecuted.
MW along with other tour operators, hoteliers etc offered the Listening Service to their clients as an extra service for them to take up if required. Surely this must mean they are guilty of inciting the abandonment of children at those venues? The fact that it was not offered at PdL is irrelevant to the principle.
The whole idea of the McCanns being charged with abandonment in these holiday circumstances is preposterous.
IMO
Wrong Benice, yet again.
Read what the ex-Minister said.
If the McCann's had been Portuguese, they would have been investigated and all too likely prosecuted.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 23, 2017, 11:04:54 AM
If the McCann's had been Portuguese, they would have been investigated and all too likely prosecuted.
Does that mean the Portuguese were applying a double standard? One for the tourists and one for their own populace. Your quote seems to confirm a double standard.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on February 23, 2017, 11:10:19 AM
If the McCann's had been Portuguese, they would have been investigated and all too likely prosecuted.
Tell me Benice, if the McCann's had done what they did in the UK, would they have got away with it ?
The ex-minister was obviously unaware of the following which you also apparently missed in my post.
It has been an accepted custom and practice for decades that people on holiday do make arrangements to leave their children alone while they go to dinner - or a bar or whatever. No-one has ever been prosecuted for doing that.
What are your opinions on the other points I made in my post?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 23, 2017, 11:13:35 AM
The ex-minister was obviously unaware of the following which you also apparently missed in my post.
It has been an accepted custom and practice for decades that people on holiday do make arrangements to leave their children alone while they go to dinner - or a bar or whatever. No-one has ever been prosecuted for doing that.
What are your opinions on the other points I made in my post?
What accepted practice ?
It is not acceptable.
Pereira was 100% right.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on February 23, 2017, 11:14:20 AM
My experience of determined 4-year-olds is that a baby gate is no impediment to them as they simply climb over it. The pedestrian gate at the bottom of the steps was an even lesser obstacle as it didn't lock. And since the patio door itself was unlocked there is no reason whatsoever why Madeleine couldn't have got out on her own if distressed or have I missed something?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 23, 2017, 11:18:34 AM
The ex-minister was obviously unaware of the following which you also apparently missed in my post.
It has been an accepted custom and practice for decades that people on holiday do make arrangements to leave their children alone while they go to dinner - or a bar or whatever. No-one has ever been prosecuted for doing that.
What are your opinions on the other points I made in my post?
The PT were persuaded that it was a normal British practice and some here seem to be continuing to promote that view. The rest of the UK don't really want to tarred with that brush.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on February 23, 2017, 11:20:18 AM
read the archiving despatch and you might understand why they were not prosecuted
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 23, 2017, 11:30:10 AM
Do you seriously think the UK police & Social Services would have "got involved" if a Portuguese family on holiday here had suffered the loss of their child in similar circumstances?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on February 23, 2017, 11:33:36 AM
The PT were persuaded that it was a normal British practice and some here seem to be continuing to promote that view. The rest of the UK don't really want to tarred with that brush.
Of course it's normal practice for people on holiday both here and abroad otherwise the Listening Service would never have been offered to clients in the first place - let alone be on offer for decades. There can be only one reason why it is offered IMO and that is because it is popular with parents - so it will increase bookings.
If you don't agree with the practice - then that's your prerogative. However, common sense dictates that none of parents who have signed up for this service would agree with you. Neither would those parents who use baby alarms.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 23, 2017, 11:33:53 AM
Have you got an example where the parents were charged when a child drowned in the sea? I can't think of any around here except when the excursion was a school trip or a adventure tourism situation.
No, I cannot because there was no global search for any child who drowned at sea, no fund set up, no pope or Royalty visits, world wide publicity PR campaigne telling people it was the seas fault, and the country in which the sea was accessed from, populations responsibility to stop the sea from coming in stealing the child. Absolutly nothing was done to prevent the tide from coming in!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 23, 2017, 11:35:41 AM
read the archiving despatch and you might understand why they were not prosecuted
They recklessly endangered their children, all to pursue the social interests.
Enough said.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on February 23, 2017, 11:36:06 AM
Th crucial element is 'reckless' and that could not be established. The McCanns admitted that they fell victim to a false sense of security given the peaceful ambiance of the resort.
If anyone was to blame it was the resort management who were well aware that accmodation had been targeted already. Guests should have been warned not to leave doors unsecured at any time and to lock all windows firmly when out.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 23, 2017, 11:38:07 AM
Of course it's normal practice for people on holiday both here and abroad otherwise the Listening Service would never have been offered to clients in the first place - let alone be on offer for decades. There can be only one reason why it is offered IMO and that is because it is popular with parents - so it will increase bookings.
If you don't agree with the practice - then that's your prerogative. However, common sense dictates that none of parents who have signed up for this service would agree with you. Neither would those parents who use baby alarms.
So it's normal practiced to leave children unattended, and with infrequent and short checks, whilst they go out boozing and eating, whilst leaving the accomodation unlocked.
NO IT ISN'T.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on February 23, 2017, 11:42:10 AM
Th crucial element is 'reckless' and that could not be established. The McCanns admitted that they fell victim to a false sense of security given the peaceful ambiance of the resort.
If anyone was to blame it was the resort management who were well aware that accmodation had been targeted already. Guests should have been warned not to leave doors unsecured at any time and to lock all windows firmly when out.
Is that not just common sense?
If it was such a safe place why were they checking at all? How was a 'listening' check going to determine that the children were alive & well,and all present and correct?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 23, 2017, 11:42:50 AM
Th crucial element is 'reckless' and that could not be established. The McCanns admitted that they fell victim to a false sense of security given the peaceful ambiance of the resort.
However, that doesn't seem to tie in with their premeditated ,multilateral descision to 'do a listening' job on their children before they even left England! Now does it? David Payne and wife brought baby listening device, why?
They all planned to leave their children alone in the evenings. claimed it is what people in the UK do regularily, forgetting to mention that if a child went missing they would be hauled up in court!
Premeditated... planned... I am not buying in to that golly gosh you know what we just didn't think...it was an accident.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on February 23, 2017, 11:47:19 AM
Th crucial element is 'reckless' and that could not be established. The McCanns admitted that they fell victim to a false sense of security given the peaceful ambiance of the resort.
IIRC John, that is why Mark Warner have now stopped offering the Listening Service - i.e. they recognised that it could give people a false sense of security. I totally agree as people will be influenced (even sub-consciously) when a service is offered to the public by a reputable company. It would not occur to them that such companies would promote services year in year out - that could possibly endanger their children.
I would like all tour operators and hoteliers etc to take the same stance as MW and withdraw the service.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 23, 2017, 11:54:50 AM
IIRC John, that is why Mark Warner have now stopped offering the Listening Service - i.e. they recognised that it could give people a false sense of security. I totally agree as people will be influenced (even sub-consciously) when a service is offered to the public by a reputable company. It would not occur to them that such companies would promote services year in year out - that could possibly endanger their children.
I would like all tour operators and hoteliers etc to take the same stance as MW and withdraw the service.
Just because people want a service it doesn't mean it is safe. It is the parents rsponsibility to do risk assessment, the very fact that the apartment has access to an open road and a door was left unlocked. Seriously? Next you will be telling us they are 'intellegent' doctors...
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on February 23, 2017, 11:57:42 AM
So it's normal practiced to leave children unattended, and with infrequent and short checks, whilst they go out boozing and eating, whilst leaving the accomodation unlocked.
NO IT ISN'T.
The Listening Service has been used by parents for decades. Whether those parents go to a bar or to have their dinner or go for a walk or to a concert or whatever they do - they have all made exactly the same choice as the McCanns and that is to leave their children asleep and alone in their accommodation for periods of time. Try to get over it.
Anyone who thinks no other holiday-maker has ever gone out and left windows/door unlocked - either by accident or design is not living in the real world IMO.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 23, 2017, 12:08:55 PM
Not forgetting that the window was open and the shutter raised ... and a little girl was missing without trace.
If Madeleine 'woke and wandered' she left no fingerprints on the glass of the patio door, cuddle cat was left lying on the bed and she left her shoes behind her.
All she had to do was to walk from the garden gate to the small well lit reception area and safety ... there is no evidence she did that.
Mr and Mrs Moyes were on their balcony from after nine until they retired. Had there been any disturbance associated with an accident they would have noticed. Unfortunately neither they who were on their balcony and others with balconies overlooking the area who may well have been on them appear to have been asked relevant questions ... it is questionable how many if any were asked anything at all.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 23, 2017, 12:12:13 PM
Not forgetting that the window was open and the shutter raised ... and a little girl was missing without trace.
If Madeleine 'woke and wandered' she left no fingerprints on the glass of the patio door, cuddle cat was left lying on the bed and she left her shoes behind her.
All she had to do was to walk from the garden gate to the small well lit reception area and safety ... there is no evidence she did that.
Mr and Mrs Moyes were on their balcony from after nine until they retired. Had there been any disturbance associated with an accident they would have noticed. Unfortunately neither they who were on their balcony and others with balconies overlooking the area who may well have been on them appear to have been asked relevant questions ... it is questionable how many if any were asked anything at all.
No, we don't know the window was open and the shutters raised.
Not corroborated by anyone before Kate Mccann went to the apartment.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 23, 2017, 12:15:00 PM
The Listening Service has been used by parents for decades. Whether those parents go to a bar or to have their dinner or go for a walk or to a concert or whatever they do - they have all made exactly the same choice as the McCanns and that is to leave their children asleep and alone in their accommodation for periods of time. Try to get over it.
Anyone who thinks no other holiday-maker has ever gone out and left windows/door unlocked - either by accident or design is not living in the real world IMO.
Well welcome to this real world, the one in which doctors are constanly writing up notes about children who have all sorts of accidents- attend social work and police meetings regarding child abuse cases- who are TRAINED in risk assessment and child protecion policy. NO where in that policy or at any meetings do they say Baby listening is safe-go out have a drink and pop back to listen- hear if babies are crying.
Let me reassure you what they did was selfish as are ALL parents who treat their children like pests who interfere in their adult persuits.
Blaming everyone else when something goes wrong is quite another matter!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 23, 2017, 12:16:53 PM
The Listening Service has been used by parents for decades. Whether those parents go to a bar or to have their dinner or go for a walk or to a concert or whatever they do - they have all made exactly the same choice as the McCanns and that is to leave their children asleep and alone in their accommodation for periods of time. Try to get over it.
Anyone who thinks no other holiday-maker has ever gone out and left windows/door unlocked - either by accident or design is not living in the real world IMO.
Really, and how many leave their children in unlocked accomodation.
Your excuses wore thin a long time ago Benice.
There are no excuses for what they did.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 23, 2017, 12:20:22 PM
Th crucial element is 'reckless' and that could not be established. The McCanns admitted that they fell victim to a false sense of security given the peaceful ambiance of the resort.
If anyone was to blame it was the resort management who were well aware that accmodation had been targeted already. Guests should have been warned not to leave doors unsecured at any time and to lock all windows firmly when out.
I have never bought that one John, since they locked the apartment during the daytime.
Therefore, ipso facto, they knew the resort wasn't safe.
Besides locking the doors when you are out is standard practice and common sense.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on February 23, 2017, 12:22:33 PM
Not forgetting that the window was open and the shutter raised ... and a little girl was missing without trace.
If Madeleine 'woke and wandered' she left no fingerprints on the glass of the patio door, cuddle cat was left lying on the bed and she left her shoes behind her.
All she had to do was to walk from the garden gate to the small well lit reception area and safety ... there is no evidence she did that.
Mr and Mrs Moyes were on their balcony from after nine until they retired. Had there been any disturbance associated with an accident they would have noticed. Unfortunately neither they who were on their balcony and others with balconies overlooking the area who may well have been on them appear to have been asked relevant questions ... it is questionable how many if any were asked anything at all.
Are you forgetting the tracker dog who followed Madeleine's fresh scent from Apt 5a down to reception and across the road? That is evidence Brietta.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on February 23, 2017, 12:24:54 PM
Not forgetting that the window was open and the shutter raised ... and a little girl was missing without trace.
If Madeleine 'woke and wandered' she left no fingerprints on the glass of the patio door, cuddle cat was left lying on the bed and she left her shoes behind her.
All she had to do was to walk from the garden gate to the small well lit reception area and safety ... there is no evidence she did that.
Mr and Mrs Moyes were on their balcony from after nine until they retired. Had there been any disturbance associated with an accident they would have noticed. Unfortunately neither they who were on their balcony and others with balconies overlooking the area who may well have been on them appear to have been asked relevant questions ... it is questionable how many if any were asked anything at all.
Worth mentioning the lack of finger prints-the Only fingerprints found were on the window and they were KATES.oops. Also Kate is the only person claiming this was done by someone else. No independant evidence at all.
Oh are you suggesting someone did a wipe down in the apartment and got rid off the 'abductors' prints and left Kates?
Are you also suggesting the 'people' on the balconies saw something and didn't report it? why would ALL these people not come forward if they saw a child dying from an accident- oh seriously!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on February 23, 2017, 12:31:39 PM
Any accident may have occurred long before there were people on their balconies.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 23, 2017, 12:34:28 PM
8@??)( Indeed Stephen! you see it is always the devil in the details! 8**8:/:
They locked the apartment to keep their valuables safe DURING THE DAY now why do that if they knew it was safe enough to leave babies, who woke up crying during the night, alone with an unlocked door!
&%+((Ł hmmmm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on February 23, 2017, 12:45:31 PM
Vital to keep them pesky daisies at bay.
In the meantime, responsible parents allow their children to walk unescorted to school (having first checked that they are sufficiently aware when crossing roads).
But the same, in the main, loving and responsible parents would never dream of leaving the route their kids walk to get to school littered with bank-notes.
Does that mean they love money more than they love their kids?
No, of course it doesn't.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 23, 2017, 01:02:20 PM
In the meantime, responsible parents allow their children to walk unescorted to school (having first checked that they are sufficiently aware when crossing roads).
But the same, in the main, loving and responsible parents would never dream of leaving the route their kids walk to get to school littered with bank-notes.
Does that mean they love money more than they love their kids?
No, of course it doesn't.
So children aged three and infants walk to school, or in the latter walk in the streets, by themselves.
8**8:/:
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 23, 2017, 01:54:52 PM
Are you forgetting the tracker dog who followed Madeleine's fresh scent from Apt 5a down to reception and across the road? That is evidence Brietta.
If memory serves me well, the GNR dogs followed a trail from the door of the apartment and along the walled pathway in the direction of block 4. They walked down the pathway between the blocks and followed the path running behind block 5 where they exited onto Rua Dr Francisco Gentil Martins prior to proceeding back up the road in the direction of Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva and crossing before turning and walking back towards the car park opposite reception. (we went into this in great detail with Pegasus on one of the interminable dog threads ... Misty might remember). They showed not the slightest interest in the exit from the garden of the McCann apartment.
I doubt Madeleine would have followed that route by herself in the dark and on foot. If the dogs were following her scent she was being carried by an adult who was walking to a vehicle in the car park.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 23, 2017, 02:28:10 PM
Kate McCann completely dismissed the possibility that Madeleine left the apartment herself that night. Neither she or Fiona have ever been asked about Fiona's rogatory interview, however, when she said Kate asked her;
'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up' http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Kate must have thought that Madeleine was capable of opening the patio door and the child gate, otherwise she wouldn't have left the door unlocked so she could go and find them.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 23, 2017, 02:37:54 PM
Worth mentioning the lack of finger prints-the Only fingerprints found were on the window and they were KATES.oops. Also Kate is the only person claiming this was done by someone else. No independant evidence at all.
Oh are you suggesting someone did a wipe down in the apartment and got rid off the 'abductors' prints and left Kates?
Are you also suggesting the 'people' on the balconies saw something and didn't report it? why would ALL these people not come forward if they saw a child dying from an accident- oh seriously!
Pity you missed the discussion thread where the presence of Kate's fingerprints on the inside window glass was discussed in great detail ~ it was very informative.
You did however manage to understand precisely the point I made in my post about the unlikelihood that Madeleine may have met with an accident while wandering on the street. Well spotted.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: barrier on February 23, 2017, 02:42:23 PM
Kate must have thought that Madeleine was capable of opening the patio door and the child gate, otherwise she wouldn't have left the door unlocked so she could go and find them.
She didn't know before hand that MO would volunteer to go and check on the apartment did she? that would be the only other reason to leave the apartment unsecured,or to borrow MWT's phrase the patio door was insecure.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on February 23, 2017, 02:56:29 PM
Pity you missed the discussion thread where the presence of Kate's fingerprints on the inside window glass was discussed in great detail ~ it was very informative.
You did however manage to understand precisely the point I made in my post about the unlikelihood that Madeleine may have met with an accident while wandering on the street. Well spotted.
People also open windows by the fingerprint patterns shown.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on February 23, 2017, 03:49:44 PM
If memory serves me well, the GNR dogs followed a trail from the door of the apartment and along the walled pathway in the direction of block 4. They walked down the pathway between the blocks and followed the path running behind block 5 where they exited onto Rua Dr Francisco Gentil Martins prior to proceeding back up the road in the direction of Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva and crossing before turning and walking back towards the car park opposite reception. (we went into this in great detail with Pegasus on one of the interminable dog threads ... Misty might remember). They showed not the slightest interest in the exit from the garden of the McCann apartment.
I doubt Madeleine would have followed that route by herself in the dark and on foot. If the dogs were following her scent she was being carried by an adult who was walking to a vehicle in the car park.
From the GNR search team...
Witness statement of GNR Dog Handler Antonio Freitas Silva...
That after having given the sniffer dog the towel and next to the residence of the missing girl, more specifically, next to apartment block 5A and 5, the first sniffer dog headed toward the door of that apartment. Immediately afterward, he headed in the direction of block 4, returned around block 5, and came down a road that exists between this block and the leisure area (pools, restaurants, etc). He turned right; in the direction of the aforementioned apartment and headed toward the main road. There, he crossed the street and next to the wall of block 6, turned right, and headed toward the contiguous parking area. More concretely, he headed next to a light post and sniffed the ground around that post. After this, he crossed the street again and headed toward the access zone to the restaurants and pool area, sniffing the door which was closed at that time. He again went to the parking zone, and at that point, lost the scent. - When carrying out this operation with the second dog, he followed the same route, took the same direction and headed toward the light post in the parking lot mentioned above. He sniffed the area and at that point appeared to have lost the scent. The only difference was that this dog did not head toward the entrance of the restaurant or the pool area.
Witness statement of GNR Dog Handler Antonio Freitas Silva...
That after having given the sniffer dog the towel and next to the residence of the missing girl, more specifically, next to apartment block 5A and 5, the first sniffer dog headed toward the door of that apartment. Immediately afterward, he headed in the direction of block 4, returned around block 5, and came down a road that exists between this block and the leisure area (pools, restaurants, etc). He turned right; in the direction of the aforementioned apartment and headed toward the main road. There, he crossed the street and next to the wall of block 6, turned right, and headed toward the contiguous parking area. More concretely, he headed next to a light post and sniffed the ground around that post. After this, he crossed the street again and headed toward the access zone to the restaurants and pool area, sniffing the door which was closed at that time. He again went to the parking zone, and at that point, lost the scent. - When carrying out this operation with the second dog, he followed the same route, took the same direction and headed toward the light post in the parking lot mentioned above. He sniffed the area and at that point appeared to have lost the scent. The only difference was that this dog did not head toward the entrance of the restaurant or the pool area.
Witness statement of GNR Dog Handler Antonio Freitas Silva...
That after having given the sniffer dog the towel and next to the residence of the missing girl, more specifically, next to apartment block 5A and 5, the first sniffer dog headed toward the door of that apartment. Immediately afterward, he headed in the direction of block 4, returned around block 5, and came down a road that exists between this block and the leisure area (pools, restaurants, etc). He turned right; in the direction of the aforementioned apartment and headed toward the main road. There, he crossed the street and next to the wall of block 6, turned right, and headed toward the contiguous parking area. More concretely, he headed next to a light post and sniffed the ground around that post. After this, he crossed the street again and headed toward the access zone to the restaurants and pool area, sniffing the door which was closed at that time. He again went to the parking zone, and at that point, lost the scent. - When carrying out this operation with the second dog, he followed the same route, took the same direction and headed toward the light post in the parking lot mentioned above. He sniffed the area and at that point appeared to have lost the scent. The only difference was that this dog did not head toward the entrance of the restaurant or the pool area.
No, I cannot because there was no global search for any child who drowned at sea, no fund set up, no pope or Royalty visits, world wide publicity PR campaigne telling people it was the seas fault, and the country in which the sea was accessed from, populations responsibility to stop the sea from coming in stealing the child. Absolutly nothing was done to prevent the tide from coming in!
Rogue waves and rogue answers knock me over.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 23, 2017, 04:41:21 PM
Yes, I agree with the common sense element but how many people leave their common sense at passport control when they fly off abroad?
"Malcolm Tarling, a spokesman for the Association of British Insurers, said: “Economic conditions can impact on insurance claims. British tourists can be easy targets and many are crime victims waiting to happen.” "
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 23, 2017, 07:18:50 PM
"Malcolm Tarling, a spokesman for the Association of British Insurers, said: “Economic conditions can impact on insurance claims. British tourists can be easy targets and many are crime victims waiting to happen.” "
Does 'can be easy targets' translate as 'either too drunk or too stupid to take reasonable precautions? Same with 'crime victims waiting to happen'?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 23, 2017, 08:10:27 PM
Does 'can be easy targets' translate as 'either too drunk or too stupid to take reasonable precautions? Same with 'crime victims waiting to happen'?
That, the view they carry with them a bit of England in a shell on their backs and being completely unaware. A quote from an experience on my travels. At a restaurant on a little island, smaller in area than Dorset, in 74 million sq km of Indian Ocean. British tourist: "there's too much fish on this menu"................... @)(++(*
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 23, 2017, 08:11:47 PM
Neither dog looked near the gate at 5A. Both crossed the road before proceeding towards the car park.
If that was the route taken by Madeleine ... she was being carried to a vehicle and not wandering on her own.
Madeleine used that route to and from the creche (through G6 car park) - you think an abductor would park their getaway vehicle opposite the reception entrance and where they came from to check? There is no evidence to support your ridiculous theory - witnesses were close by and out on balconies and didn't hear a thing. The dogs lost the scent in the car park then one crossed the road and went to the reception entrance. Routes used by Madeleine. Kate said Madeleine used the lane route back to 5A (not the patio side) because it was locked and Gerry opened it with the key. Last known route 5:30-40 3 May 2007.
3 May 2007 They arrived at the apartment around 5:40PM, earlier than usual, because Madeleine was tired, their other friends were at the beach and Gerry had an all-male tennis game at 6:00PM. At the flat they both bathed the children, and close to 6:00PM Gerry went to the tennis courts, soon after the children had finished their bath. They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key. She does not know if it was locked, and presumes it was Gerry who opened it. At lunch time they also entered by the same door. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 23, 2017, 08:33:42 PM
Madeleine used that route to and from the creche (through G6 car park) - you think an abductor would park their getaway vehicle opposite the reception entrance and where they came from to check? There is no evidence to support your ridiculous theory - witnesses were close by and out on balconies and didn't hear a thing. The dogs lost the scent in the car park then one crossed the road and went to the reception entrance. Routes used by Madeleine. Kate said Madeleine used the lane route back to 5A (not the patio side) because it was locked and Gerry opened it with the key. Last known route 5:30-40 3 May 2007.
3 May 2007 They arrived at the apartment around 5:40PM, earlier than usual, because Madeleine was tired, their other friends were at the beach and Gerry had an all-male tennis game at 6:00PM. At the flat they both bathed the children, and close to 6:00PM Gerry went to the tennis courts, soon after the children had finished their bath. They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key. She does not know if it was locked, and presumes it was Gerry who opened it. At lunch time they also entered by the same door. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
There is always the possibility that any getaway car belonged to someone who occupied one of the private dwellings opposite the back of Block 6. The car park was used by those residents, too.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 23, 2017, 09:19:21 PM
Nobody heard a thing. Smithman and the child didn't make a sound either. Like to give you clues............
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 23, 2017, 09:24:41 PM
Nobody heard a thing. Smithman and the child didn't make a sound either. Like to give you clues............
Nobody witnessed the head chef come & go in his car. Nobody witnessed the Moyses walking up the road & going into their apartment. Nobody apparently witnessed any of the Tapas checks bar JW. Who would take any notice of a local resident leaving home via the rear of Block 6 in their car?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 23, 2017, 09:41:49 PM
Nobody witnessed the head chef come & go in his car. Nobody witnessed the Moyses walking up the road & going into their apartment. Nobody apparently witnessed any of the Tapas checks bar JW. Who would take any notice of a local resident leaving home via the rear of Block 6 in their car?
It is amazing how little things can crack a case. Witneses who thought they saw something quite innocent, realise after an event put two and two together. Search Jamie Bulger Case. Many witneses saw, but none thought Little Jamie had been abducted, and none would have thought he was going to be tortured and brutally murdered.
I believe the Smiths acted just like that. It all looked innocent a man carrying a child... Also, people would have seen something and would have come forward if what they saw could equate with Maddies disappearance.
That is the strangeness of this whole story.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 23, 2017, 11:38:02 PM
Nobody witnessed the head chef come & go in his car. Nobody witnessed the Moyses walking up the road & going into their apartment. Nobody apparently witnessed any of the Tapas checks bar JW. Who would take any notice of a local resident leaving home via the rear of Block 6 in their car?
Why didn't the child make a sound if you believe an abduction took place? Pamela Fenn/Moyes were above and Maddy was very loud. Good luck in finding a getaway vehicle because there wasn't one.
"The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
4078 'Is there anything else, that you smelt, could you smell anything''
Reply 'No, no, we've talked about that before, I didn't smell anything......................no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean, it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know, I'd been in and then suddenly somebody's saying Madeleine's missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh'.
4078 'Okay. We will move back then from that check. I am sure you would have already mentioned, but did you see anybody''
Reply 'No'.
00.45.51 4078 'Hear any cars''
Reply 'No. No, I mean, as I say, it was nearly always completely deserted, there was very few people in the resort, erm, you know, you only rarely saw, you know, occasionally people move about on the street and that was mostly during the day, erm, everybody else seemed to sort of eat earlier................... http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 24, 2017, 12:08:07 AM
Why didn't the child make a sound if you believe an abduction took place? Pamela Fenn/Moyes were above and Maddy was very loud. Good luck in finding a getaway vehicle because there wasn't one.
"The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
4078 'Is there anything else, that you smelt, could you smell anything''
Reply 'No, no, we've talked about that before, I didn't smell anything......................no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean, it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know, I'd been in and then suddenly somebody's saying Madeleine's missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh'.
4078 'Okay. We will move back then from that check. I am sure you would have already mentioned, but did you see anybody''
Reply 'No'.
00.45.51 4078 'Hear any cars''
Reply 'No. No, I mean, as I say, it was nearly always completely deserted, there was very few people in the resort, erm, you know, you only rarely saw, you know, occasionally people move about on the street and that was mostly during the day, erm, everybody else seemed to sort of eat earlier................... http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Nobody except Jayne saw Crecheman in the vicinity of 5a either, but SY are pretty sure he was there. A witness visiting block 6, who departed at 10pm by vehicle was apparently seen by no-one either - but the car left the scene. That does not negate the possibility of another local resident leaving the scene in a vehicle. Could the people sitting on their balconies see a vehicle leave from the street immediately behind the Murat villa?
As far as any unusual odour in the children's bedroom was concerned, an open window & through breeze would have quickly dissipated any smell of chlorine. If a chloroformed pad was placed on Madeleine's face, it need never have come into contact with the pillow.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 24, 2017, 12:15:37 AM
And no one witnessed an abductor. or jemmied shutters. Or whooshing curtains.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2017, 12:25:56 AM
Nobody except Jayne saw Crecheman in the vicinity of 5a either, but SY are pretty sure he was there. A witness visiting block 6, who departed at 10pm by vehicle was apparently seen by no-one either - but the car left the scene. That does not negate the possibility of another local resident leaving the scene in a vehicle. Could the people sitting on their balconies see a vehicle leave from the street immediately behind the Murat villa?
As far as any unusual odour in the children's bedroom was concerned, an open window & through breeze would have quickly dissipated any smell of chlorine. If a chloroformed pad was placed on Madeleine's face, it need never have come into contact with the pillow.
And the twins? Was the fact that they were unresponsive a coincidence or was chloroform used on them too ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 24, 2017, 12:31:39 AM
And the twins? Was the fact that they were unresponsive a coincidence or was chloroform used on them too ?
I don't believe they were drugged, no. Amaral stated in his book that they woke up when they were moved to another apartment - was that true or another lie iyo?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 24, 2017, 12:50:17 AM
Nobody except Jayne saw Crecheman in the vicinity of 5a either, but SY are pretty sure he was there. A witness visiting block 6, who departed at 10pm by vehicle was apparently seen by no-one either - but the car left the scene. That does not negate the possibility of another local resident leaving the scene in a vehicle. Could the people sitting on their balconies see a vehicle leave from the street immediately behind the Murat villa?
As far as any unusual odour in the children's bedroom was concerned, an open window & through breeze would have quickly dissipated any smell of chlorine. If a chloroformed pad was placed on Madeleine's face, it need never have come into contact with the pillow.
Why did they do tests if according to you it was a waste of time? Did the abductor sedate all 3? The twins didn't wake up. How much time did the abductor have and when did it happen? Matt smelt nothing at 9:30 - no draughts, no sounds so that window wasn't open. Jane's sighting was before Matt's check and Crecheman's 2 year old child wasn't Maddy. The lighter weight explains the different carrying styles and the different hair length leads to two different men. One is found and when the other is brought in I will reveal more.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on February 24, 2017, 01:22:33 AM
Why did they do tests if according to you it was a waste of time? Did the abductor sedate all 3? The twins didn't wake up. How much time did the abductor have and when did it happen? Matt smelt nothing at 9:30 - no draughts, no sounds so that window wasn't open. Jane's sighting was before Matt's check and Crecheman's 2 year old child wasn't Maddy. The lighter weight explains the different carrying styles and the different hair length leads to two different men. One is found and when the other is brought in I will reveal more.
No testing is ever a waste of time in an investigation like this. Just because the twins didn't wake up doesn't mean they were drugged. People who live near major airports sleep through plane activity. People who leave near motorways sleep through the all-night rumbling of traffic. Babies & toddlers have a habit of sleeping through noise which would keep an adult awake. I've no idea why SY ruled out Crecheman as, imo, he should have been heading towards block 4, not away from it - but maybe they haven't ruled out the man Jayne saw, just led everyone to believe that they have.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2017, 01:33:19 AM
Kate saw the whooshing curtains. Amy Tierney saw the shutters raised. The Smiths saw an abductor.
Don't know who it was the Smiths saw Robbie. He may just have been an innocent dad carrying his child wending his way home and not necessarily Madeleine's abductor. He is as yet unidentified so we just don't know.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2017, 01:49:23 AM
No testing is ever a waste of time in an investigation like this. Just because the twins didn't wake up doesn't mean they were drugged. People who live near major airports sleep through plane activity. People who leave near motorways sleep through the all-night rumbling of traffic. Babies & toddlers have a habit of sleeping through noise which would keep an adult awake. I've no idea why SY ruled out Crecheman as, imo, he should have been heading towards block 4, not away from it - but maybe they haven't ruled out the man Jayne saw, just led everyone to believe that they have.
Watched a news item tonight demonstrating the ability of children to sleep soundly through the noise of a fire alarm going off. Leading to the development of one using a lower frequency and a human voice to which children are more responsive. So who knows what children will sleep through.
I have never doubted that Jane Tanner witnessed Madeleine being abducted. She gained respite from the hounding she suffered over the years when the police 'found' and 'eliminated' him to focus on Smithman. Why would the police alert a suspect they are still looking for ~ or whose identity may already be known to them?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 24, 2017, 03:09:31 AM
Don't know who it was the Smiths saw Robbie. He may just have been an innocent dad carrying his child wending his way home and not necessarily Madeleine's abductor. He is as yet unidentified so we just don't know.
When I wrote that I thought "well he has had enough time to come forward", so I called him an abductor.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 24, 2017, 08:36:52 AM
Watched a news item tonight demonstrating the ability of children to sleep soundly through the noise of a fire alarm going off. Leading to the development of one using a lower frequency and a human voice to which children are more responsive. So who knows what children will sleep through.
I have never doubted that Jane Tanner witnessed Madeleine being abducted. She gained respite from the hounding she suffered over the years when the police 'found' and 'eliminated' him to focus on Smithman. Why would the police alert a suspect they are still looking for ~ or whose identity may already be known to them?
Matt said there were no draughts in that apartment and he could see the curtains which were still not moving through the open bedroom door. His check was after that sighting so how the hell did Tannerman open a window after Matt's check? How did none of the checkers after Tannerman who went through the car park i.e. Matt, Russ & Jane never saw raised shutters and a "can't miss it" open window (next to Matt's apartment window)? Not one spotted anything wrong after Tannerman. I know we're talking about fantasy luzland but time to get real.
But I will say one thing - the two door moves leads to Tannerman as being an abductor...........When Smithman is brought in I will reveal more.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 24, 2017, 08:41:58 AM
Matt said there were no draughts in that apartment and he could see the curtains which were still not moving through the open bedroom door. His check was after that sighting so how the hell did Tannerman open a window after Matt's check? How did none of the checkers after Tannerman who went through the car park i.e. Matt, Russ & Jane never saw raised shutters and a "can't miss it" open window (next to Matt's apartment window)? Not one spotted anything wrong after Tannerman. I know we're talking about fantasy luzland but time to get real.
I can't believe anything Matt says.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: barrier on February 24, 2017, 08:42:51 AM
Don't know who it was the Smiths saw Robbie. He may just have been an innocent dad carrying his child wending his way home and not necessarily Madeleine's abductor. He is as yet unidentified so we just don't know.
Yet in your next post you can go with Tannerman,how? when all that there is to go on is a statement in the same manner,person and child unidentified.
I have never doubted that Jane Tanner witnessed Madeleine being abducted. She gained respite from the hounding she suffered over the years when the police 'found' and 'eliminated' him to focus on Smithman. Why would the police alert a suspect they are still looking for ~ or whose identity may already be known to them?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 24, 2017, 08:57:00 AM
Don't know who it was the Smiths saw Robbie. He may just have been an innocent dad carrying his child wending his way home and not necessarily Madeleine's abductor. He is as yet unidentified so we just don't know.
You're fixated with an 'abductor'.
Need I remind you yet again, there is BA evidence one ever existed, so stop typing it as fact.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 24, 2017, 08:58:09 AM
He is right about the door position and no sounds, nothing out of the ordinary in that apartment at 9:30 except for a moving door that set up Tannerman - more on that later 8)--)) He revealed a lot of important details when accused by the PJ e.g. Kate's real checking time.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 24, 2017, 09:00:43 AM
He is right about the door position and no sounds, nothing out of the ordinary in that apartment at 9:30 except for a moving door - more on that later 8)--)) He revealed a lot of important details when accused by the PJ e.g. Kate's real checking time.
How would we know? Would it have been Madeleine that moved the door since we are talking about woke and wandered?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 24, 2017, 09:06:38 AM
Follow the evidence and then you will know. Tannerman has been found by SY - he didn't open a window. He carried his child the way he did because she was 2 not nearly 4. Smithman used a different carrying style and many eye witnesses claimed it was Madeleine. SY find the Smiths credible - it was the focus of CW and Tannerman gone. Amaral was going to bring the Smiths back but was removed. The Smiths sighting is the only credible line left in this case. It was from the start for me because he was smart not daft.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 24, 2017, 09:15:30 AM
Follow the evidence and then you will know. Tannerman has been found by SY - he didn't open a window. He carried his child the way he did because she was 2 not nearly 4. Smithman used a different carrying style and many eye witnesses claimed it was Madeleine. SY find the Smiths credible - it was the focus of CW and Tannerman gone. Amaral was going to bring the Smiths back but was removed. The Smiths sighting is the only credible line left in this case. It was from the start for me because he was smart not daft.
We were talking about different things. Are you saying the man seen by the Smiths moved the door that Matt had seen moved?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on February 24, 2017, 09:17:14 AM
Matt hadn't previously seen the door so didn't know if it had been moved or not. It's only Gerry that says the door had moved.
So did Gerry put the door back to the right position? Matt describes the degree of opening. So Matt would not have altered the angle. I wonder if he could see what he says he did with the door at that angle? Would be able Madeleine get through the door at that angle?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2017, 09:31:41 AM
Yet in your next post you can go with Tannerman,how? when all that there is to go on is a statement in the same manner,person and child unidentified.
It is generally recognised that the child carrier on the streets of Luz that night were not one and the same person. What there are of the descriptions tends to make that clear. Jane Tanner only saw a side view and her description of the hair length - on which she was adamant - differs. Therefore unless Tannerman was wearing a wig or had popped in and had a quick haircut ... he was not the man encountered by the Smiths thirty five or forty minutes later.
The individual seen by Jane Tanner was carrying a barefoot child seconds away from the room from which a barefoot child would be found missing. Had Jane Tanner been just five seconds earlier she would very likely have walked into him head on. Had Jez Wilkins not stopped to speak with Gerry, who had just left the apartment after checking on the children, it is very likely he too would have met him head on. There is no logical route from the creche to where he was seen ... but there is a very logical route directly from the McCann apartment.
Goncalo Amaral played down that sighting ... why?
Jane Tanner suffered years of abuse because of what she had witnessed ... why?
I have seen it written that very often the only evidence of an abduction is eye witness testimony. Jane Tanner was an eye witness to a man carrying a child away from the immediate scene where a child vanished. It is not rocket science to work it out.
Had the McCanns returned home to find their television gone and a man had been seen carrying a television away at the same location Jane saw the man carrying the barefoot child ... the deduction is the same for both instances one hypothetical and one fact.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on February 24, 2017, 09:34:03 AM
So did Gerry put the door back to the right position? Matt describes the degree of opening. So Matt would not have altered the angle. I wonder if he could see what he says he did with the door at that angle? Would be able Madeleine get through the door at that angle?
Another of these uncorroborated statements. He said he did, but no one else saw it. The question I would ask is could Matt see both twins through the opening or did he open it further and if so, why couldn't he see Madeleine in her bed?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2017, 09:37:06 AM
He is right about the door position and no sounds, nothing out of the ordinary in that apartment at 9:30 except for a moving door that set up Tannerman - more on that later 8)--)) He revealed a lot of important details when accused by the PJ e.g. Kate's real checking time.
He also gave a description of the ambient lighting in the room which was commensurate with the shutter being raised allowing the gentle street lighting to be seen shining through the curtains.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 24, 2017, 09:39:15 AM
Another of these uncorroborated statements. He said he did, but no one else saw it. The question I would ask is could Matt see both twins through the opening or did he open it further and if so, why couldn't he see Madeleine in her bed?
Good questions - why would the McCanns allow another to do the check if they knew Madeleine was deceased in the apartment? Did they know that at 9:30 or was it at 10:00 that Kate first became aware that Madeleine had died? (If you accept Amaral's theory that Madeleine had died accidentally)
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2017, 09:42:35 AM
Follow the evidence and then you will know. Tannerman has been found by SY - he didn't open a window. He carried his child the way he did because she was 2 not nearly 4. Smithman used a different carrying style and many eye witnesses claimed it was Madeleine. SY find the Smiths credible - it was the focus of CW and Tannerman gone. Amaral was going to bring the Smiths back but was removed. The Smiths sighting is the only credible line left in this case. It was from the start for me because he was smart not daft.
The height of the child carried by Smithman was described using as a guide the height of one of the younger Smith children ... who was four.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 24, 2017, 09:45:49 AM
He also gave a description of the ambient lighting in the room which was commensurate with the shutter being raised allowing the gentle street lighting to be seen shining through the curtains.
Really ?
How do we know how the shutters were left prior to the McCann's departing to the Tapas ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 24, 2017, 09:52:15 AM
Good questions - why would the McCanns allow another to do the check if they knew Madeleine was deceased in the apartment? Did they know that at 9:30 or was it at 10:00 that Kate first became aware that Madeleine had died? (If you accept Amaral's theory that Madeleine had died accidentally)
It could be that by that time, Madeleine wasn't in the apartment, but concealed nearby, so wouldn't be immediately found.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: carlymichelle on February 24, 2017, 10:03:19 AM
It could be that by that time, Madeleine wasn't in the apartment, but concealed nearby, so wouldn't be immediately found.
So it was sheer luck that Matt didn't look to see if Madeleine had woke and wandered?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on February 24, 2017, 10:10:13 AM
It may be that Madeleine being discovered missing half an hour earlier would have had no effect on how things evolved - except that the group would have gone hungry that night.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2017, 10:12:31 AM
How do we know how the shutters were left prior to the McCann's departing to the Tapas ?
A listening check was made at the McCann children's window just after nine (Matthew Oldfield) and the shutters were as they should have been at that time.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2017, 10:14:36 AM
It may be that Madeleine being discovered missing half an hour earlier would have had no effect on how things evolved - except that the group would have gone hungry that night.
Were the McCanns disappointed that Matt wasn't the one that discovered Madeleine missing (woke and wandered) that would have to mean that Gerry was lying and he had noticed Madeleine missing but told no one other than Kate, so she agreed to let Matt check so he could find her missing. Really does that make any sense at all? So when in Amarals theory did the McCanns first become aware Madeleine had wandered?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: carlymichelle on February 24, 2017, 10:17:32 AM
@)(++(*
now dont be such a know it all next time this is a few hours before maddie vanished
C.C.T.V pictures of Tapas 7 (minus Kate and Gerry McCann) at Paraiso restaurant on 3 May 2007 before the staged abduction began (http://i68.tinypic.com/dq0gw2.jpg)
A listening check was made at the McCann children's window just after nine (Matthew Oldfield) and the shutters were as they should have been at that time.
Like the door position, how would he know how they should have been? We don't know how visible the damage was or indeed what the damage was. Perhaps Matt wouldn't have noticed. He didn't notice Madeleine.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 24, 2017, 10:19:01 AM
A listening check was made at the McCann children's window just after nine (Matthew Oldfield) and the shutters were as they should have been at that time.
How do you know the description of the 'ambient lighting' was correct, let alone accurate.
Likewise, a listening check. What exactly does that mean and did he actually check the children, or was he behind a door ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2017, 10:19:52 AM
Like the door position, how would he know how they should have been? We don't know how visible the damage was or indeed what the damage was. Perhaps Matt wouldn't have noticed. He didn't notice Madeleine.
I am sure he would have noticed raised shutters and an open window and remarked on it when making his police statement.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on February 24, 2017, 10:25:04 AM
You have posted CCTV from the Millennium restaurant ... there is no CCTV at the tapas restaurant.
No it's not, it's the Beach restaurant, where the group minus the McCanns spent Thursday afternoon.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2017, 10:28:27 AM
Thank you Robbie, I have amended my post accordingly.
If the Tapas restaurant had benefited from CCTV so many questions would have been resolved as regards the timeline, but it did not which has led to so much trouble and speculation.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: carlymichelle on February 24, 2017, 10:28:54 AM
It is generally recognised that the child carrier on the streets of Luz that night were not one and the same person. What there are of the descriptions tends to make that clear. Jane Tanner only saw a side view and her description of the hair length - on which she was adamant - differs. Therefore unless Tannerman was wearing a wig or had popped in and had a quick haircut ... he was not the man encountered by the Smiths thirty five or forty minutes later.
The individual seen by Jane Tanner was carrying a barefoot child seconds away from the room from which a barefoot child would be found missing. Had Jane Tanner been just five seconds earlier she would very likely have walked into him head on. Had Jez Wilkins not stopped to speak with Gerry, who had just left the apartment after checking on the children, it is very likely he too would have met him head on. There is no logical route from the creche to where he was seen ... but there is a very logical route directly from the McCann apartment.
Goncalo Amaral played down that sighting ... why?
Jane Tanner suffered years of abuse because of what she had witnessed ... why?
I have seen it written that very often the only evidence of an abduction is eye witness testimony. Jane Tanner was an eye witness to a man carrying a child away from the immediate scene where a child vanished. It is not rocket science to work it out.
Had the McCanns returned home to find their television gone and a man had been seen carrying a television away at the same location Jane saw the man carrying the barefoot child ... the deduction is the same for both instances one hypothetical and one fact.
IIRC Amaral didn't play down Jayne's sighting as long as he had Murat in his sights. He was quite happy with her as a reliable witness until he had to let Murat go and decided to go after the parents instead - particularly the mother (again). It was only then that her sighting became an 'inconvenience' to him - and his answer to that was to do everything he could to discredit her. Just like any good policeman would.....not IMO
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2017, 10:50:49 AM
I don't believe they were drugged, no. Amaral stated in his book that they woke up when they were moved to another apartment - was that true or another lie iyo?
Amaral wasn't in PDL however every witness who was and mentioned the twins commented that they didn't wake even when moved to another apartment. Are you saying they are all liars?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2017, 11:00:01 AM
IIRC Amaral didn't play down Jayne's sighting as long as he had Murat in his sights. He was quite happy with her as a reliable witness until he had to let Murat go and decided to go after the parents instead - particularly the mother (again). It was only then that her sighting became an 'inconvenience' to him - and his answer to that was to do everything he could to discredit her. Just like any good policeman would.....not IMO
So everything at variance with his theory of events had to be discredited or ignored. One wonders how much information which might have been of value to actually finding Madeleine McCann might have been lost as a direct result.
What a pity the Murat villa was in direct line of the route being taken ... and the chagrin when Jane was adamant Murat was not the man she had seen upsetting that particular apple cart.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2017, 11:01:58 AM
Amaral wasn't in PDL however every witness who was and mentioned the twins commented that they didn't wake even when moved to another apartment. Are you saying they are all liars?
Seems it was Amaral doing the saying and writing it up in his book.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: carlymichelle on February 24, 2017, 11:02:44 AM
Amaral wasn't in PDL however every witness who was and mentioned the twins commented that they didn't wake even when moved to another apartment. Are you saying they are all liars?
im not a parent faith but i find it odd that toddlers woouldnt wake up with so much noise etc im sure most people do
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2017, 11:06:23 AM
So everything at variance with his theory of events had to be discredited or ignored. One wonders how much information which might have been of value to actually finding Madeleine McCann might have been lost as a direct result.
What a pity the Murat villa was in direct line of the route being taken ... and the chagrin when Jane was adamant Murat was not the man she had seen upsetting that particular apple cart.
If Amaral wasn't playing down Tanner's sighting why did it prove so difficult for the McCanns to get the investigation to take it seriously? I believe pressure was put on the Portuguese to release a photo fit of the man she saw. That certainly doesn't sound that at any time Amaral found Tanner's sighting credible or relevant, and he was eventually proved right.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on February 24, 2017, 11:23:26 AM
im not a parent faith but i find it odd that toddlers woouldnt wake up with so much noise etc im sure most people do
Well I am - and in my experience it's not odd at all. I've been at wedding receptions, etc where toddlers have slept soundly in their buggies while a disco is blasting out around them. In their time my own children have slept through thunderstorms, parties, hoovering, etc etc.. An IMO most parents can say the same.
Gerry's son stayed asleep when he carried him down from an airplane in a noisy airport.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2017, 11:30:14 AM
Well I am - and in my experience it's not odd at all. I've been at wedding receptions, etc where toddlers have slept soundly in their buggies while a disco is blasting out around them. In their time my own children have slept through thunderstorms, parties, hoovering, etc etc.. An IMO most parents can say the same.
Gerry's son stayed asleep when he carried him down from an airplane in a noisy airport.
Kate said it was unusual and, allegedly, raised her concerns the night of Madeleine's disappearance. Gerry in the Panorama programme commented that they thought his children had been sedated. After coming home from Portugal they had the twins tested to see if they had been drugged.
Are you saying you know the McCann's children and sleeping patterns better than them?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on February 24, 2017, 11:36:40 AM
Kate said it was unusual and, allegedly, raised her concerns the night of Madeleine's disappearance. Gerry in the Panorama programme commented that they thought his children had been sedated. After coming home from Portugal they had the twins tested to see if they had been drugged.
Are you saying you know the McCann's children and sleeping patterns better than them?
Kate knew her child well enough to say that she had not woke and wandered ... yet there are those who know better.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 24, 2017, 11:38:11 AM
It is generally recognised that the child carrier on the streets of Luz that night were not one and the same person. What there are of the descriptions tends to make that clear. Jane Tanner only saw a side view and her description of the hair length - on which she was adamant - differs. Therefore unless Tannerman was wearing a wig or had popped in and had a quick haircut ... he was not the man encountered by the Smiths thirty five or forty minutes later.
The individual seen by Jane Tanner was carrying a barefoot child seconds away from the room from which a barefoot child would be found missing. Had Jane Tanner been just five seconds earlier she would very likely have walked into him head on. Had Jez Wilkins not stopped to speak with Gerry, who had just left the apartment after checking on the children, it is very likely he too would have met him head on. There is no logical route from the creche to where he was seen ... but there is a very logical route directly from the McCann apartment.
Goncalo Amaral played down that sighting ... why?
Jane Tanner suffered years of abuse because of what she had witnessed ... why?
I have seen it written that very often the only evidence of an abduction is eye witness testimony. Jane Tanner was an eye witness to a man carrying a child away from the immediate scene where a child vanished. It is not rocket science to work it out.
Had the McCanns returned home to find their television gone and a man had been seen carrying a television away at the same location Jane saw the man carrying the barefoot child ... the deduction is the same for both instances one hypothetical and one fact.
Bad analogy, in a holiday resort carrying kids in the evening is not suspicious, TVs would be.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Benice on February 24, 2017, 11:55:56 AM
Kate said it was unusual and, allegedly, raised her concerns the night of Madeleine's disappearance. Gerry in the Panorama programme commented that they thought his children had been sedated. After coming home from Portugal they had the twins tested to see if they had been drugged.
Are you saying you know the McCann's children and sleeping patterns better than them?
No - I'm saying that it was only Madeleine's disappearance that caused the McCanns to wonder whether the twins had been drugged. Obviously they had never been in this situation before to make comparisons. IMO The reason why the twins didn't wake up - was because they were deeply asleep and simply slept through any noise going on around them - as toddlers often do. Later drug tests found no evidence of sedation.
Must go out now.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: faithlilly on February 24, 2017, 12:05:08 PM
Kate knew her child well enough to say that she had not woke and wandered ... yet there are those who know better.
She also seemed to think her child was capable of locating the unlocked patio door, exiting it and setting off in search of her parents. That's why the door was left unlocked, wasn't it, if Fiona Payne is to be believed?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 24, 2017, 02:03:32 PM
She also seemed to think her child was capable of locating the unlocked patio door, exiting it and setting off in search of her parents. That's why the door was left unlocked, wasn't it, if Fiona Payne is to be believed?
What were Fiona's words?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: The Singularity on February 24, 2017, 03:17:39 PM
Very nearly to ten years since this very tragic incident happened. I have a lot of professional respect for Mark Williams-Thomas, he did finally shine a light into the dark crimes that Savile committed. It is no surprise that the McCanns have spoken out against him following his opinion that she wandered out of the holiday apartment. That's all it is though, an opinion just like everyone else because actual facts are very hard to come by.
It's as good a theory as some of the others I have seen over the last ten years, some of them have been absolute shockers. The one fact that everyone tends to agree on is that she vanished from the apartment, with apparent no trace.
Having said that, the Scotland Yard investigation which is due to end in March of this year are in the best position to have working theories as they are in collection of all the possible leads and facts. They are still working on the theory that she was abducted to order which was a theory that surfaced very early on in the investigation but lost an incredible amount of credibility following the publication of an intelligence report that included the carpet bombing of Belgium. Prior to Shrimpton's little addition, the theory of organised abduction did hold water.
It's still a theory that from my perspective is conducive and far more believable. However as with all the theories, lacks any concrete evidence to back it up. It is not outside the realms of possibility that aspects of that fateful evening have been misleading.
The case remains very tragic. In ten years, we are no nearer to finding out what happened to Madeleine than we were seven days after she went missing. I think Mark Williams-Thomas' opinion should be considered of value. He has shown in the past to be meticulous with investigating, an example being the Savile exposure and although there is nothing to investigate as such in the Madeleine case, he can draw on experience and research.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 24, 2017, 03:57:01 PM
Very nearly to ten years since this very tragic incident happened. I have a lot of professional respect for Mark Williams-Thomas, he did finally shine a light into the dark crimes that Savile committed. It is no surprise that the McCanns have spoken out against him following his opinion that she wandered out of the holiday apartment. That's all it is though, an opinion just like everyone else because actual facts are very hard to come by.
It's as good a theory as some of the others I have seen over the last ten years, some of them have been absolute shockers. The one fact that everyone tends to agree on is that she vanished from the apartment, with apparent no trace.
Having said that, the Scotland Yard investigation which is due to end in March of this year are in the best position to have working theories as they are in collection of all the possible leads and facts. They are still working on the theory that she was abducted to order which was a theory that surfaced very early on in the investigation but lost an incredible amount of credibility following the publication of an intelligence report that included the carpet bombing of Belgium. Prior to Shrimpton's little addition, the theory of organised abduction did hold water.
It's still a theory that from my perspective is conducive and far more believable. However as with all the theories, lacks any concrete evidence to back it up. It is not outside the realms of possibility that aspects of that fateful evening have been misleading.
The case remains very tragic. In ten years, we are no nearer to finding out what happened to Madeleine than we were seven days after she went missing. I think Mark Williams-Thomas' opinion should be considered of value. He has shown in the past to be meticulous with investigating, an example being the Savile exposure and although there is nothing to investigate as such in the Madeleine case, he can draw on experience and research.
MWT also believes Oscar Pistorious is innocent
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: The Singularity on February 24, 2017, 04:54:20 PM
Very nearly to ten years since this very tragic incident happened. I have a lot of professional respect for Mark Williams-Thomas, he did finally shine a light into the dark crimes that Savile committed. It is no surprise that the McCanns have spoken out against him following his opinion that she wandered out of the holiday apartment. That's all it is though, an opinion just like everyone else because actual facts are very hard to come by.
It's as good a theory as some of the others I have seen over the last ten years, some of them have been absolute shockers. The one fact that everyone tends to agree on is that she vanished from the apartment, with apparent no trace.
Having said that, the Scotland Yard investigation which is due to end in March of this year are in the best position to have working theories as they are in collection of all the possible leads and facts. They are still working on the theory that she was abducted to order which was a theory that surfaced very early on in the investigation but lost an incredible amount of credibility following the publication of an intelligence report that included the carpet bombing of Belgium. Prior to Shrimpton's little addition, the theory of organised abduction did hold water.
It's still a theory that from my perspective is conducive and far more believable. However as with all the theories, lacks any concrete evidence to back it up. It is not outside the realms of possibility that aspects of that fateful evening have been misleading.
The case remains very tragic. In ten years, we are no nearer to finding out what happened to Madeleine than we were seven days after she went missing. I think Mark Williams-Thomas' opinion should be considered of value. He has shown in the past to be meticulous with investigating, an example being the Savile exposure and although there is nothing to investigate as such in the Madeleine case, he can draw on experience and research.
Arguably safest to trust the shelved enquiry, which ruled out 'woke and wandered'.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 24, 2017, 06:46:12 PM
Arguably safest to trust the shelved enquiry, which ruled out 'woke and wandered'.
How did they rule it out? Was it impossible? Did they somehow prove that it didn't happen? Or did they actually not pay it much attention?
As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
Do they say why it was 'a remote hypothesis' or why it was 'highly unlikely physically'? I can't find any more information on this.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 24, 2017, 06:53:25 PM
How did they rule it out? Was it impossible? Did they somehow prove that it didn't happen? Or did they actually not pay it much attention?
As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
Do they say why it was 'a remote hypothesis' or why it was 'highly unlikely physically'? I can't find any more information on this.
The quote from the report "As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared." So it was not entirely ruled out. To climb the gates could have been difficult, to open the gates could have been difficult for a 3-4 year old.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on February 24, 2017, 07:29:23 PM
The quote from the report "As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared." So it was not entirely ruled out. To climb the gates could have been difficult, to open the gates could have been difficult for a 3-4 year old.
Most child safety gates are recommended for use up to 2 years of age. Many children can climb over them or open them before that age, however.
I had to take my baby gates down at 14 months because the little terror learnt how to climb over them, at which point they became more dangerous than not having them. https://www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/children-parenting-190/child-health-safety-first-aid-62/902246-do-you-know-stairgates-have-use-all.html
My son is two and a half and can now open all the stair gates in the house. We have left them there purely to keep the dogs separate. https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/behaviour_development/749319-Stair-gates-At-what-age-do-you-not-need-them?pg=1
It's quite possible that Madeleine could open the ones at home, in which case she would have been instructed to close them behind her because of her siblings.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ferryman on February 24, 2017, 07:45:43 PM
How did they rule it out? Was it impossible? Did they somehow prove that it didn't happen? Or did they actually not pay it much attention?
As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
Do they say why it was 'a remote hypothesis' or why it was 'highly unlikely physically'? I can't find any more information on this.
The enquiry ruled out 'woke and wandered'.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 24, 2017, 07:46:07 PM
He also gave a description of the ambient lighting in the room which was commensurate with the shutter being raised allowing the gentle street lighting to be seen shining through the curtains.
Gerry's statement explains that one. Some slats were open so light got through. Truth is simple.
"The outside blinds were closed with only two or three slats open." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 24, 2017, 08:56:52 PM
It was thought highly unlikely but no reasons were given.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: barrier on January 12, 2020, 06:37:05 PM
Some thing to pass a winters day with I suppose.Not much else happening.Not much different from the opening post it seems which was in 2013.Other news lets are available.
Ex-detective Mark Williams-Thomas says Madeleine McCann case is 'unsolvable' because a crucial CCTV camera was switched off when she vanished
Some thing to pass a winters day with I suppose.Not much else happening.Not much different from the opening post it seems which was in 2013.Other news lets are available.
Ex-detective Mark Williams-Thomas says Madeleine McCann case is 'unsolvable' because a crucial CCTV camera was switched off when she vanished
Some thing to pass a winters day with I suppose.Not much else happening.Not much different from the opening post it seems which was in 2013.Other news lets are available.
Ex-detective Mark Williams-Thomas says Madeleine McCann case is 'unsolvable' because a crucial CCTV camera was switched off when she vanished
If Maddie wandered out of the back, then she closed the door, child gate & gate at the bottom of the stairs behind her, either that or the phantom gate closer happened by along with the burglar.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 12, 2020, 08:16:48 PM
That's true but I do recall KM saying something which started off with: 'We know our Madeleine'... and she simply would not have gone out without her shoes closing the gates behind her.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 12, 2020, 09:56:44 PM
That's true but I do recall KM saying something which started off with: 'We know our Madeleine'... and she simply would not have gone out without her shoes closing the gates behind her.
Parents often think they know their children only to be surprised.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 12, 2020, 10:05:14 PM
Parents often think they know their children only to be surprised.
Was there any reason why MM couldn't exit out the front door. KM does state in her PB something like for many years she considered 'Tannerman' as MM's abductor who exited va the window but she goes on to say this might not be right and the perp may have left via the front door. So if perp could leave via front why not MM? Was she able to reach handle?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on January 12, 2020, 10:34:38 PM
Was there any reason why MM couldn't exit out the front door. KM does state in her PB something like for many years she considered 'Tannerman' as MM's abductor who exited va the window but she goes on to say this might not be right and the perp may have left via the front door. So if perp could leave via front why not MM? Was she able to reach handle?
She may have been able to but would Madeleine have closed the front door behind her?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 12, 2020, 10:55:34 PM
Strangely enough Gerry's sister had something to say about that. She said the front door was lying open.
Gerry's sister said that Gerry was crying so much she had difficulty hearing what he was saying. Gerry sister no doubt heard Gerry say the bedroom door was wide open and mistook it for the front door. IMO
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2020, 08:28:32 AM
Gerry's sister said that Gerry was crying so much she had difficulty hearing what he was saying. Gerry sister no doubt heard Gerry say the bedroom door was wide open and mistook it for the front door. IMO
She said; 'he was in no state to say much...he was hysterical, he was shouting'. She didn't say she had difficulty hearing what he was saying.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: The General on January 13, 2020, 08:38:00 AM
Gerry's sister said that Gerry was crying so much she had difficulty hearing what he was saying. Gerry sister no doubt heard Gerry say the bedroom door was wide open and mistook it for the front door. IMO
But never thought to correct her at any time. Makes sense now you say it like that.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 13, 2020, 09:34:54 AM
She may have been able to but would Madeleine have closed the front door behind her?
I've no idea,
But KM saying the perp could have exited through the main door and the fact she doesn't mention it left open fits with my theory perp exited via front door. I think most agree the door wasn't locked from within but some seem to think it wasn't possible to close it shut behind but KM seems to say otherwise.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: The General on January 13, 2020, 09:37:54 AM
But KM saying the perp could have exited through the main door and the fact she doesn't mention it left open fits with my theory perp exited via front door. I think most agree the door wasn't locked from within but some seem to think it wasn't possible to close it shut behind but KM seems to say otherwise.
We are assuming the front door key is the one depicted in the crime scene photos? Which would indicate the door can be simply pulled to. Rob Ittybob has analysed this in some detail. I don't recall any detail about 'locking' of doors at all - a mistake of both statement takers in my opinion. Surely it's pivotal?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 13, 2020, 09:50:32 AM
I think the open window alone discarded the wandered hypothesis. The window is the key.
I agree theories involving woke and wandered are not really plausible given the open window and raised shutter.
In what way do you believe the window is key? Again I agree with you. I believe the perp learned of PF's recent attempted burglary directly above 5A and used this knowledge to stage the window/shutter to confuse/deflect.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 13, 2020, 09:56:37 AM
We are assuming the front door key is the one depicted in the crime scene photos? Which would indicate the door can be simply pulled to. Rob Ittybob has analysed this in some detail. I don't recall any detail about 'locking' of doors at all - a mistake of both statement takers in my opinion. Surely it's pivotal?
Ian Horrocks suggests in his report perp could have left via the front door. Would he have suggested this without knowing it was possible?
I believe IH was paid by The Sun/Murdoch to investigate? He visited PDL. Did he meet with the McCanns?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: The General on January 13, 2020, 10:32:07 AM
I agree theories involving woke and wandered are not really plausible given the open window and raised shutter.
In what way do you believe the window is key? Again I agree with you. I believe the perp learned of PF's recent attempted burglary directly above 5A and used this knowledge to stage the window/shutter to confuse/deflect.
But where is the vehement demonstrations from Gerry and Kate confirming the windows and shutters? If other theories were being bandied around, then they could have doubled down and attempted to remove doubt. How many times have they confirmed this being the case in all of the media interviews, the book and subsequently?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2020, 12:41:47 PM
But where is the vehement demonstrations from Gerry and Kate confirming the windows and shutters? If other theories were being bandied around, then they could have doubled down and attempted to remove doubt. How many times have they confirmed this being the case in all of the media interviews, the book and subsequently?
Why would they bother? They were getting supportive telephone calls from various politicians, supportive letters from their fans, and donations to their Fund so they had no need to convince sceptics.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 13, 2020, 12:43:47 PM
But where is the vehement demonstrations from Gerry and Kate confirming the windows and shutters? If other theories were being bandied around, then they could have doubled down and attempted to remove doubt. How many times have they confirmed this being the case in all of the media interviews, the book and subsequently?
Well as far as KM is concerned she was the one who found MM missing with the window open and shutter raised. Afaik she has never wavered reciting all of this in interviews and her PB.
And afaik the McCanns have always rejected woke and wandered and have always advocated abduction only.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 13, 2020, 12:45:11 PM
Why would they bother? They were getting supportive telephone calls from various politicians, supportive letters from their fans, and donations to their Fund so they had no need to convince sceptics.
But if they were involved why not allow for the possibility of woke and wandered?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 13, 2020, 12:55:43 PM
Why would they bother? They were getting supportive telephone calls from various politicians, supportive letters from their fans, and donations to their Fund so they had no need to convince sceptics.
They certainly had a need to convince GNR officers and PJ it was a case of abduction and not woke and wandered.
The fact PJ didn't even take a formal wit stat from PF until 20th Aug is mind blowing. OC was not some run down hostel in the back and beyond. It was a properly managed and serviced holiday resort. It should have been apparent within the first 24 hours who was occupying the apartments in the days before MM disappeared and the fact PF was a permanent resident meant she was potentially a key witness.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on January 13, 2020, 01:13:40 PM
I agree theories involving woke and wandered are not really plausible given the open window and raised shutter.
In what way do you believe the window is key? Again I agree with you. I believe the perp learned of PF's recent attempted burglary directly above 5A and used this knowledge to stage the window/shutter to confuse/deflect.
The window may have been opened to distract attention from the intruder using a key to enter via the front door. It certainly wrecks the 'woke and wandered' scenario in my opinion despite the police seemingly concentrating on that scenario for quite some time.
I don't think anyone would have had the foresight to envisage how it would be used to detract from attention to the intruder to focus blame on the victims. That was a truly unexpected bonus which to my mind irretrievably damaged the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance. That in combination with the demonisation of the only witness Jane Tanner must have meant the perpetrator could not believe his luck.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2020, 01:55:24 PM
They certainly had a need to convince GNR officers and PJ it was a case of abduction and not woke and wandered.
The fact PJ didn't even take a formal wit stat from PF until 20th Aug is mind blowing. OC was not some run down hostel in the back and beyond. It was a properly managed and serviced holiday resort. It should have been apparent within the first 24 hours who was occupying the apartments in the days before MM disappeared and the fact PF was a permanent resident meant she was potentially a key witness.
They tried to convince the Portuguese authorities but weren't successful.
You don't know whether the police spoke to PF early in the investigation or not, so you don't know if your criticisms are founded or not.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on January 13, 2020, 02:12:09 PM
Please may I ask, Where was this Shut Down Camera supposed to have been situated.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: The General on January 13, 2020, 02:19:53 PM
They tried to convince the Portuguese authorities but weren't successful.
You don't know whether the police spoke to PF early in the investigation or not, so you don't know if your criticisms are founded or not.
Considering they knocked on circa 1000 doors pretty early on, yeh, quite sure they spoke to Mrs. Fenn (RIP), with her being, you know, upstairs and all that. Even Brietta herself, the denizen of PJ castigators, could afford them that much.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 13, 2020, 03:34:28 PM
The window may have been opened to distract attention from the intruder using a key to enter via the front door. It certainly wrecks the 'woke and wandered' scenario in my opinion despite the police seemingly concentrating on that scenario for quite some time.
I don't think anyone would have had the foresight to envisage how it would be used to detract from attention to the intruder to focus blame on the victims. That was a truly unexpected bonus which to my mind irretrievably damaged the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance. That in combination with the demonisation of the only witness Jane Tanner must have meant the perpetrator could not believe his luck.
Or her luck? Or their luck?
Yes it certainly all went the perp's way.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 13, 2020, 04:05:16 PM
The window may have been opened to distract attention from the intruder using a key to enter via the front door. It certainly wrecks the 'woke and wandered' scenario in my opinion despite the police seemingly concentrating on that scenario for quite some time.
I don't think anyone would have had the foresight to envisage how it would be used to detract from attention to the intruder to focus blame on thevictims. That was a truly unexpected bonus which to my mind irretrievably damaged the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance. That in combination with the demonisation of the only witness Jane Tanner must have meant the perpetrator could not believe his luck.
*Alleged
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 13, 2020, 04:10:03 PM
They tried to convince the Portuguese authorities but weren't successful.
You don't know whether the police spoke to PF early in the investigation or not, so you don't know if your criticisms are founded or not.
PF's wit stat of 20th Aug makes no mention of any previous contact with the authorities. It reads as though she is providing a statement for the first time.
If she provided a statement before 20th Aug where is it? And if she did provide something earlier then what was the reason for taking another statement on 20th Aug?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 13, 2020, 04:19:19 PM
Considering they knocked on circa 1000 doors pretty early on, yeh, quite sure they spoke to Mrs. Fenn (RIP), with her being, you know, upstairs and all that. Even Brietta herself, the denizen of PJ castigators, could afford them that much.
But where's the evidence PF was spoken with earlier than her 20th Aug wit stat?
According to PF's niece, CAT, she was accompanied by her husband on 3rd May but I can't find any evidence anyone has ever taken a wit stat from Christopher Tranmer?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: The General on January 13, 2020, 05:08:50 PM
PF's wit stat of 20th Aug makes no mention of any previous contact with the authorities. It reads as though she is providing a statement for the first time.
If she provided a statement before 20th Aug where is it? And if she did provide something earlier then what was the reason for taking another statement on 20th Aug?
There's witness statements and then there's a brief conversation with a copper over a cup of tea, recorded in a notebook.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2020, 05:57:29 PM
PF's wit stat of 20th Aug makes no mention of any previous contact with the authorities. It reads as though she is providing a statement for the first time.
If she provided a statement before 20th Aug where is it? And if she did provide something earlier then what was the reason for taking another statement on 20th Aug?
You still don't know if she was spoken to earlier and said nothing. It may have taken her a while to realise that what she heard on Tuesday was relevant. Nobody knows why she decided to make a statement when she did.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 13, 2020, 06:38:03 PM
'NEGATIVE AND HURTFUL' Madeleine McCann’s parents slam ‘heartless’ ex-cop for saying Maddie will never be found as they ‘still have hope’
THE parents of Madeleine McCann have slammed a “heartless” ex-cop for saying the missing tot will never been found.
Kate and Gerry McCann said they “still have hope” Maddie will be “found alive” 12 years on from her disappearance in Portugal.
The parents slammed self-styled top crime investigator Mark Williams-Thomas for trying to “cash in” on Maddie’s fate and said his “hurtful” remarks in his new book undermined the committed and ongoing work by cops to find her.
Mr Williams-Thomas believes Maddie fell victim to an opportunistic criminal and mystery has not been solved because a crucial CCTV camera at the Portuguese holiday resort she was snatched from was turned off.
He states: “The sad reality is, this far on, the likelihood of Madeleine being alive now is incredibly slim. Unfortunately, in almost every case of stranger abduction, within the space of 24 hours the child is dead.”
The authors' remarks come just a few weeks after the McCann’s of Rothley. Leics, vowed to carry on searching for their daughter.
Kate and Gerry posted a website message on their 13th Christmas without her: “Nothing has changed…we love her, we miss her, we hope as always. The search for Madeleine goes on with unwavering commitment.”
A family source said: “Now someone who has absolutely no idea what happened to Madeleine is saying she’ll never be found. "This is neither helpful to the Scotland Yard search not respectful to Kate and Gerry. It is heartless.
“They are starting their New Year with hope and positivity and they don't want people pedalling negative and hurtful comments simply to cash in on book sales.
“It undermines work the police are doing for which Kate and Gerry remain greatly encouraged by and are extremely grateful for.
“They also say that until a body is found they refuse to give up searching."
Heart doctor Gerry and former GP Kate, both 51, cling onto hope that Maddie - who would now be 16 - could still be alive and being held against her will.
Three-year-old Maddie vanished from a holiday flat in The Algarve’s Praia da Luz on May 2007.
She had been left sleeping along with her younger twin siblings while her parents were dining in a nearby tapas bar with pals.
So far nearly Ł12million of taxpayers' money has been spent on the painstaking hunt to find her. The couple’s latest round of funding runs out at the end of March.
Mr Williams-Thomas, 49, who was worked on major missing persons cases but never Maddie’s, is convinced her case is “unsolvable”.
In his new book Hunting Killers, the author says: "The abduction of Madeleine McCann is one I’d put into the unsolvable category.
"I believe Madeleine was the victim of an opportunistic criminal whose act was random – she wandered out of the apartment and into the path of this person.
“The case hasn’t been solved simply because a crucial CCTV camera was turned off, meaning that whoever took Madeleine was not identifiable at the scene.”
In fact former Portuguese police chief Gonzalo Amaral, who led the original investigation onto Maddie’s disappearance, previously said he believed the suspect was caught on film before it was wiped.
Mr Amaral - who won a bitter and long fought libel battle against Kate and Gerry which they are still trying to appeal in the European Court of Human Rights - reportedly said: “I believe that the person seen carrying a child in his arms was captured on film from that very camera.
“I asked my officers to gather all the CCTV footage in Luz but, by the time they got to this hotel, the film from this camera had been wiped over. It was a mistake and I will always regret it.
“I do feel Madeleine was let down.”
British officers working with counterparts in Portugal said Apartment 5A at the Ocean Club from where the youngster went missing was the “worst preserved” crime scene ever.
A CCTV camera in the complex was not working. Another camera covering the road from the resort was allegedly never examined.
But the McCann's were also reportedly shown some footage taken from public sites around the area and photos, including a number of known sex offenders.
Maddie’s abduction - the world's most famous missing child case - was highlighted last year in a controversial Netflix documentary which her parents refused to co-operate with.
Mr Williams-Thomas, who at times speaks out on breakfast TV about latest Maddie development, said he wants to see an end to the case - ideally the girl returned home to her family or "some kind of resolution in terms of someone being convicted for the offence.”
Considering they knocked on circa 1000 doors pretty early on, yeh, quite sure they spoke to Mrs. Fenn (RIP), with her being, you know, upstairs and all that. Even Brietta herself, the denizen of PJ castigators, could afford them that much.
I have absolutely no idea what your reference to me might mean but the fact no-one bothered to climb the stairs to contact Mr and Mrs Moyes would indicate that any notion of start at the centre and work out appeared to be foreign to the PJ investigators.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 14, 2020, 12:35:36 PM
You still don't know if she was spoken to earlier and said nothing. It may have taken her a while to realise that what she heard on Tuesday was relevant. Nobody knows why she decided to make a statement when she did.
I would suggest she made a statement on 20th August as she was asked to do so by PJ. Better late than never I guess. Her statement makes clear that despite the fact she was living in Portugal she had no knowledge of the Portuguese language in its written or oral form, so the idea a random member of PJ happened by and took a mini statement doesn't seem to stack up. Plus had she made an earlier statement I would have expected to see some reference to this in the statement dated 20th Aug.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 14, 2020, 12:54:00 PM
'NEGATIVE AND HURTFUL' Madeleine McCann’s parents slam ‘heartless’ ex-cop for saying Maddie will never be found as they ‘still have hope’
THE parents of Madeleine McCann have slammed a “heartless” ex-cop for saying the missing tot will never been found.
Kate and Gerry McCann said they “still have hope” Maddie will be “found alive” 12 years on from her disappearance in Portugal.
The parents slammed self-styled top crime investigator Mark Williams-Thomas for trying to “cash in” on Maddie’s fate and said his “hurtful” remarks in his new book undermined the committed and ongoing work by cops to find her.
Mr Williams-Thomas believes Maddie fell victim to an opportunistic criminal and mystery has not been solved because a crucial CCTV camera at the Portuguese holiday resort she was snatched from was turned off.
He states: “The sad reality is, this far on, the likelihood of Madeleine being alive now is incredibly slim. Unfortunately, in almost every case of stranger abduction, within the space of 24 hours the child is dead.”
The authors' remarks come just a few weeks after the McCann’s of Rothley. Leics, vowed to carry on searching for their daughter.
Kate and Gerry posted a website message on their 13th Christmas without her: “Nothing has changed…we love her, we miss her, we hope as always. The search for Madeleine goes on with unwavering commitment.”
A family source said: “Now someone who has absolutely no idea what happened to Madeleine is saying she’ll never be found. "This is neither helpful to the Scotland Yard search not respectful to Kate and Gerry. It is heartless.
“They are starting their New Year with hope and positivity and they don't want people pedalling negative and hurtful comments simply to cash in on book sales.
“It undermines work the police are doing for which Kate and Gerry remain greatly encouraged by and are extremely grateful for.
“They also say that until a body is found they refuse to give up searching."
Heart doctor Gerry and former GP Kate, both 51, cling onto hope that Maddie - who would now be 16 - could still be alive and being held against her will.
Three-year-old Maddie vanished from a holiday flat in The Algarve’s Praia da Luz on May 2007.
She had been left sleeping along with her younger twin siblings while her parents were dining in a nearby tapas bar with pals.
So far nearly Ł12million of taxpayers' money has been spent on the painstaking hunt to find her. The couple’s latest round of funding runs out at the end of March.
Mr Williams-Thomas, 49, who was worked on major missing persons cases but never Maddie’s, is convinced her case is “unsolvable”.
In his new book Hunting Killers, the author says: "The abduction of Madeleine McCann is one I’d put into the unsolvable category.
"I believe Madeleine was the victim of an opportunistic criminal whose act was random – she wandered out of the apartment and into the path of this person.
“The case hasn’t been solved simply because a crucial CCTV camera was turned off, meaning that whoever took Madeleine was not identifiable at the scene.”
In fact former Portuguese police chief Gonzalo Amaral, who led the original investigation onto Maddie’s disappearance, previously said he believed the suspect was caught on film before it was wiped.
Mr Amaral - who won a bitter and long fought libel battle against Kate and Gerry which they are still trying to appeal in the European Court of Human Rights - reportedly said: “I believe that the person seen carrying a child in his arms was captured on film from that very camera.
“I asked my officers to gather all the CCTV footage in Luz but, by the time they got to this hotel, the film from this camera had been wiped over. It was a mistake and I will always regret it.
“I do feel Madeleine was let down.”
British officers working with counterparts in Portugal said Apartment 5A at the Ocean Club from where the youngster went missing was the “worst preserved” crime scene ever.
A CCTV camera in the complex was not working. Another camera covering the road from the resort was allegedly never examined.
But the McCann's were also reportedly shown some footage taken from public sites around the area and photos, including a number of known sex offenders.
Maddie’s abduction - the world's most famous missing child case - was highlighted last year in a controversial Netflix documentary which her parents refused to co-operate with.
Mr Williams-Thomas, who at times speaks out on breakfast TV about latest Maddie development, said he wants to see an end to the case - ideally the girl returned home to her family or "some kind of resolution in terms of someone being convicted for the offence.”
MWT involves himself in high profile cases eg MM and the murder of Jill Dando but I can't see why anyone would consider his opinions anymore valid than anyone who posts here? These cases have one off features about them and therefore I don't see how MWT being a police officer many moons ago for about 12 years makes him an authority? The same can be said for David James Smith who doesn't even have the police experience to draw upon.
I think 'This Morning/Lorraine' might be better off having the likes of you and I 8(>(( ?>)()<
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2020, 02:14:39 PM
I would suggest she made a statement on 20th August as she was asked to do so by PJ. Better late than never I guess. Her statement makes clear that despite the fact she was living in Portugal she had no knowledge of the Portuguese language in its written or oral form, so the idea a random member of PJ happened by and took a mini statement doesn't seem to stack up. Plus had she made an earlier statement I would have expected to see some reference to this in the statement dated 20th Aug.
You can suggest anything you like, but you don't know why she came to make a statement. On 5th May six teams made up of PJ Officers and Ocean Club maintenance technicions visited 443 homes in the Club Cottages, Ocean Club Gardens, Waterside Village and Waterside Gardens. They asked people if they had any information and if the answer was yes, formal interviews were arranged. Therefore the police were able to communicate with non-Portuguese speakers. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EXTERNAL.htm
I don't know if they spoke to PF, but either way she doesn't seem to have offered any information if she was visited. She also made no effort to contact the PJ in PdL or elsewhere.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 14, 2020, 02:17:49 PM
MWT involves himself in high profile cases eg MM and the murder of Jill Dando but I can't see why anyone would consider his opinions anymore valid than anyone who posts here? These cases have one off features about them and therefore I don't see how MWT being a police officer many moons ago for about 12 years makes him an authority? The same can be said for David James Smith who doesn't even have the police experience to draw upon.
I think 'This Morning/Lorraine' might be better off having the likes of you and I 8(>(( ?>)()<
I absolutely agree on Mr Williams Thomas. He is an opportunist, who incidentally retired as a police Constable going nowhere in The police force.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2020, 03:03:11 PM
We have encountered a number of police officers and ambulance staff in Portugal, and they all spoke high quality English.
To name just two officers, Ricardo Paiva and Joao Carlos both spoke English. Interpreters weren't used because the PJ didn't speak English imo, they were used because they were professionals.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on January 14, 2020, 03:32:05 PM
You can suggest anything you like, but you don't know why she came to make a statement. On 5th May six teams made up of PJ Officers and Ocean Club maintenance technicions visited 443 homes in the Club Cottages, Ocean Club Gardens, Waterside Village and Waterside Gardens. They asked people if they had any information and if the answer was yes, formal interviews were arranged. Therefore the police were able to communicate with non-Portuguese speakers. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EXTERNAL.htm
I don't know if they spoke to PF, but either way she doesn't seem to have offered any information if she was visited. She also made no effort to contact the PJ in PdL or elsewhere.
She made a wit stat on 20th Aug 2007 because she was asked to do so hence the statement repeatedly states "When questioned..." and "When asked..."
The 443 homes under investigation all related to the tourist business "Ocean Club". Mrs Fenn's residence was not part of OC tourist business. It states:
Some of the residences, belonging to the establishment, were not checked because they were unoccupied and there was no key available to access them. These were individual residences, that did not have Ocean Club maintenance contracts;
And Mrs Fenn, as full-time resident and owner of her apartment, did not have an Ocean Club maintenance contract.
The present inquiry was undertaken by a total of six teams composed of PJ officers and maintenance technicians of the Ocean Club;
PJ were able to communicate with English speaking guests as they were accompanied by maintenance technicians eg the likes of Silvia Batista who acted as translator on night of 3rd May.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 14, 2020, 03:44:33 PM
To name just two officers, Ricardo Paiva and Joao Carlos both spoke English. Interpreters weren't used because the PJ didn't speak English imo, they were used because they were professionals.
I think someone would need to be deemed competent to a certain level ie bilingual to record a witness statement.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on January 14, 2020, 03:48:25 PM
And then there was an incident very early on when KM went into meltdown mode when she learned the FLO's had not been able to get anywhere as an interpreter was unavailable.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on January 14, 2020, 03:53:56 PM
The local supermarket check-out workers all speak good quality English.
The reason why has already been done to death.
Of course they do coz they're mainly talking to English speaking tourists. Hopefully most tourists don't need to communicate with GNR/PJ.
Was English taught in Portugal's state schools pre 1990's? If not then I see no reason for the majority of GNR/PJ to speak English to the extent they would be capable of recording witness statements.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on January 14, 2020, 04:19:27 PM
Of course they do coz they're mainly talking to English speaking tourists. Hopefully most tourists don't need to communicate with GNR/PJ.
Was English taught in Portugal's state schools pre 1990's? If not then I see no reason for the majority of GNR/PJ to speak English to the extent they would be capable of recording witness statements.
English was long taught in French Schools but when I came here no one spoke English, or at least they said they didn't, although they might have been afraid of embarrassing themselves. Nowadays they all practice their excellent English on me while I still struggle with French.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: jassi on January 14, 2020, 04:30:14 PM
English was long taught in French Schools but when I came here no one spoke English, or at least they said they didn't, although they might have been afraid of embarrassing themselves. Nowadays they all practice their excellent English on me while I still struggle with French.
I'm hopeless at learning languages despite French lessons for many years and working in Italy for a year. I still haven't mastered affect and effect 8)><( I'm always amazed when I listen to foreign footballers post match who speak such good English in addition to their native tongue and often speak other languages fluently too if they've played in other countries.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on January 14, 2020, 04:42:00 PM
I'm hopeless at learning languages despite French lessons for many years and working in Italy for a year. I still haven't mastered affect and effect 8)><( I'm always amazed when I listen to foreign footballers post match who speak such good English in addition to their native tongue and often speak other languages fluently too if they've played in other countries.
When I do speak French they all answer me in English because my accent is rubbish.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 14, 2020, 04:44:19 PM
Of course they do coz they're mainly talking to English speaking tourists. Hopefully most tourists don't need to communicate with GNR/PJ.
Was English taught in Portugal's state schools pre 1990's? If not then I see no reason for the majority of GNR/PJ to speak English to the extent they would be capable of recording witness statements.
Yes. Mandatory 8 years minimum.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Admin on January 14, 2020, 04:44:40 PM
English was long taught in French Schools but when I came here no one spoke English, or at least they said they didn't, although they might have been afraid of embarrassing themselves. Nowadays they all practice their excellent English on me while I still struggle with French.
Given that much of northern France was under English control for many years, did that in any way change the native tongue.
Apologies for responding out of topic.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on January 14, 2020, 05:05:21 PM
Given that much of northern France was under English control for many years, did that in any way change the native tongue.
Apologies for responding out of topic.
Quite the opposite. English is based on Norman French which was largely spoken in England. A lot of the words that you use are French, but one doesn't see this until one has been here for some time.
Such an elegant language it is. Elegante is a French word.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 14, 2020, 05:33:15 PM
She made a wit stat on 20th Aug 2007 because she was asked to do so hence the statement repeatedly states "When questioned..." and "When asked..."
The 443 homes under investigation all related to the tourist business "Ocean Club". Mrs Fenn's residence was not part of OC tourist business. It states:
Some of the residences, belonging to the establishment, were not checked because they were unoccupied and there was no key available to access them. These were individual residences, that did not have Ocean Club maintenance contracts;
And Mrs Fenn, as full-time resident and owner of her apartment, did not have an Ocean Club maintenance contract.
The present inquiry was undertaken by a total of six teams composed of PJ officers and maintenance technicians of the Ocean Club;
PJ were able to communicate with English speaking guests as they were accompanied by maintenance technicians eg the likes of Silvia Batista who acted as translator on night of 3rd May.
Tasmin Silence volunteered to make a statement. It also says 'when asked', so those words in a statement are not a sign that the PJ instigated the interview.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 14, 2020, 07:49:10 PM
Work out the dates before making such a dumb comment.
According to you English lessons for 8 years were mandatory pre-1990s, therefore Amaral would have received 8 years of English lessons while at school, so pray tell what was dumb about my comment?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Anthro on January 14, 2020, 08:28:40 PM
Here we have 11 official languages. Yet, instruction at school level is only in English and Afrikaans. At tertiary level, mostly English. Mother-tongue education in all the other official languages is non-existent. I just wanted to share this with you.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 14, 2020, 10:07:02 PM
According to you English lessons for 8 years were mandatory pre-1990s, therefore Amaral would have received 8 years of English lessons while at school, so pray tell what was dumb about my comment?
Just work out the dates. Simple arithmetic. Gordon Bennett.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Erngath on January 14, 2020, 10:19:38 PM
Here we have 11 official languages. Yet, instruction at school level is only in English and Afrikaans. At tertiary level, mostly English. Mother-tongue education in all the other official languages is non-existent. I just wanted to share this with you.
English is the obvious choice for any non English speaking child to learn. Here it is difficult to choose which language to learn. When I was in High School, many years ago, there was the choice of German, French, Spanish, Russian and Italian. Nowadays Primary children have the chance to begin to learn one language at Primary school and then continue that language at the High School. In the main the schools offer German, Spanish or French. Difficult to decide which is the best choice. Some children will choose to study two languages after third year.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 14, 2020, 10:40:54 PM
Just work out the dates. Simple arithmetic. Gordon Bennett.
Amaral is in his 50s ergo he was in school pre-90s when YOU claimed there was mandatory 8 years of English taught in Portuguese schools. I have worked out the dates, you’re making no sense at all as usual.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 14, 2020, 10:53:27 PM
Amaral is in his 50s ergo he was in school pre-90s when YOU claimed there was mandatory 8 years of English taught in Portuguese schools. I have worked out the dates, you’re making no sense at all as usual.
He was born 60 to 61 years ago. Subtract 40.
Easy peasy.
(&^&
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 14, 2020, 11:27:12 PM
Yes you did, perhaps you didn’t read the post you were replying to carefully enough, perhaps you could be man enough to admit you made a silly mistake when attempting to score a cheap point in reply to my post. Holly asked if there were English lessons in PRE-90s Portugal to which you replied most confidently yes, 8 years mandatory. It’s all there in black and white but you continue to deny reality, why?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 15, 2020, 12:06:48 AM
Yes you did, perhaps you didn’t read the post you were replying to carefully enough, perhaps you could be man enough to admit you made a silly mistake when attempting to score a cheap point in reply to my post. Holly asked if there were English lessons in PRE-90s Portugal to which you replied most confidently yes, 8 years mandatory. It’s all there in black and white but you continue to deny reality, why?
Holly said PRE-90s.
That includes 1900. Or 1800. Or even before you were born.
I didn't say PRE-90s.
My terminology was different and much more precise.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 15, 2020, 02:33:38 AM
No yelling
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 15, 2020, 07:34:30 AM
That includes 1900. Or 1800. Or even before you were born.
I didn't say PRE-90s.
My terminology was different and much more precise.
So, not man enough to admit your mistake. Just to remind everyone, reply #1383 of this thread. Holly asked:
“Was English taught in Portugal's state schools pre 1990's? If not then I see no reason for the majority of GNR/PJ to speak English to the extent they would be capable of recording witness statements”.
You replied:
“Yes. Mandatory 8 years minimum”.
No equivocation, no precise language. Just a bold assertion to a straight forward question.
From this the reader is to understand what, exactly?
That Amaral, a pupil pre-90s would not have received 8 years of English lessons?
Get a grip man.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 15, 2020, 09:33:25 AM
So, not man enough to admit your mistake. Just to remind everyone, reply #1383 of this thread. Holly asked:
“Was English taught in Portugal's state schools pre 1990's? If not then I see no reason for the majority of GNR/PJ to speak English to the extent they would be capable of recording witness statements”.
You replied:
“Yes. Mandatory 8 years minimum”.
No equivocation, no precise language. Just a bold assertion to a straight forward question.
From this the reader is to understand what, exactly?
That Amaral, a pupil pre-90s would not have received 8 years of English lessons?
Get a grip man.
She wasn't asking if Amaral could speak English, was she?
Could the majority of police officers converse in English was the question.
Time to drop the dead donkey, Verti.
Boring!
&^^&*
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 15, 2020, 09:36:20 AM
She wasn't asking if Amaral could speak English, was she?
Could the majority of police officers converse in English was the question.
Time to drop the dead donkey, Verti.
Boring!
&^^&*
Holly clearly asked if English was taught in Portuguese schools pre 90s. You very clearly replied “yes, 8 years mandatory English lessons”. So when I made my tongue in cheek comment about Amaral not paying attention in English classes it was obviously not because I had “not worked out the dates”. If anyone should do any conceding it is you for clearly being in the wrong. Again.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 15, 2020, 10:08:18 AM
Holly clearly asked if English was taught in Portuguese schools pre 90s. You very clearly replied “yes, 8 years mandatory English lessons”. So when I made my tongue in cheek comment about Amaral not paying attention in English classes it was obviously not because I had “not worked out the dates”. If anyone should do any conceding it is you for clearly being in the wrong. Again.
In future, kindly use the tongue in cheek emoticon whilst slagging off Amaral for no reason.
And kindly flog your dead horse elsewhere. You're boring the pants off the forum with this.
&^^&*
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2020, 10:14:52 AM
In future, kindly use the tongue in cheek emoticon whilst slagging off Amaral for no reason.
And kindly flog your dead horse elsewhere. You're boring the pants off the forum with this.
&^^&*
Your post wasn't precise as you didn't mention any dates at all. I find your claim laughable that all the emergency services workers you have met speak such good english. You obviously can't support it with any evidence.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 15, 2020, 10:27:43 AM
In future, kindly use the tongue in cheek emoticon whilst slagging off Amaral for no reason.
And kindly flog your dead horse elsewhere. You're boring the pants off the forum with this.
&^^&*
THere is no "tongue in cheek" emoticon and unlike you I prefer to use these annoying things sparingly. Anyone reading my comment would have realised it was an humorous aside. You chose to use my comment as an opportunity to insult me. Well it backfired as it wasn't me that was the dumb one who had clearly misread the post by Holly, it was...well, we'll let the forum decide on that. When in a hole always best to stop digging, admit the mistake and even (if you're feeling particularly gracious) apologise. Big ask of someone absurdly dogmatic who can never admit to making a mistake I know!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 15, 2020, 10:38:57 AM
Your post wasn't precise as you didn't mention any dates at all. I find your claim laughable that all the emergency services workers you have met speak such good english. You obviously can't support it with any evidence.
As you don't live on the Algarve, your contention about our experiences here is what is laughable.
(&^&
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 15, 2020, 10:44:07 AM
THere is no "tongue in cheek" emoticon and unlike you I prefer to use these annoying things sparingly. Anyone reading my comment would have realised it was an humorous aside. You chose to use my comment as an opportunity to insult me. Well it backfired as it wasn't me that was the dumb one who had clearly misread the post by Holly, it was...well, we'll let the forum decide on that. When in a hole always best to stop digging, admit the mistake and even (if you're feeling particularly gracious) apologise. Big ask of someone absurdly dogmatic who can never admit to making a mistake I know!
As you have shown that I answered Holly's question, you quite clearly haven't got any ground to stand on in this instance.
Best to leave it alone, old bean.
&^^&*
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2020, 10:58:20 AM
Perhaps you should take your own advice, and go to your doc to get your memory checked.
There is nothing wrong with my memory. The last time the question was asked the answer you gave was that pre-1990s there were 8 years of mandatory English lessons in Portuguese state schools. OK, what is the mandatory number of years of English lessons since the 1990s in Portugal? Is it the same or more? When in the history of the Portuguese education system were English lessons not mandatory, or mandatory for fewer years than 8? Over to you, the expert.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 15, 2020, 12:12:12 PM
Quite the opposite. English is based on Norman French which was largely spoken in England. A lot of the words that you use are French, but one doesn't see this until one has been here for some time.
Such an elegant language it is. Elegante is a French word.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k9urPHwg3k0
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 15, 2020, 12:25:25 PM
Same as me with French and I can barley string a basic sentence together.
Au revoir
Therein lies the rub. Simply because English is taught for 8 years does not mean each child learns it or uses it thereafter.
So while my family's experience is that the officers we have met all spoke good English, it does not follow that all such officers spoke good English. From memory, the sergeant in charge of GNR Lagos stated that he did not speak to the McCanns because his English was insufficient.
It's a critical point in understanding what went on when Madeleine disappeared.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 15, 2020, 12:35:31 PM
Therein lies the rub. Simply because English is taught for 8 years does not mean each child learns it or uses it thereafter.
So while my family's experience is that the officers we have met all spoke good English, it does not follow that all such officers spoke good English. From memory, the sergeant in charge of GNR Lagos stated that he did not speak to the McCanns because his English was insufficient.
It's a critical point in understanding what went on when Madeleine disappeared.
I'm just reading a mag 'How the brain works' and as you might imagine there's much evidence of time critical periods to master language. I can't find the page now but it was pre-school. It makes the point it's not impossible to catch up but much easier to learn earlier. I know lots of couples who originate from different countries and their children are bilingual from an early age.
I believe RM's father was Portuguese and his mother English hence he was bilingual.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2020, 12:43:11 PM
I'm just reading a mag 'How the brain works' and as you might imagine there's much evidence of time critical periods to master language. I can't find the page now but it was pre-school. It makes the point it's not impossible to catch up but much easier to learn earlier. I know lots of couples who originate from different countries and their children are bilingual from an early age.
I believe RM's father was Portuguese and his mother English hence he was bilingual.
RM's mother was also proficient in Portuguese. No interpreter was used in her interview.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on January 15, 2020, 12:54:16 PM
Tasmin Silence volunteered to make a statement. It also says 'when asked', so those words in a statement are not a sign that the PJ instigated the interview.
It also states:
"Comes to the process as a witness. Understands the Portuguese Language, as she has been living in Portugal since the age of two months (approximately eleven years ago). Still, an interpreter is present [name withheld].
It also states despite the fact TS understood the Portuguese language an interpreter was still present.
I can't speak for Portugal (but surprised if different from UK) but in UK wit stats are considered extremely important docs that are often later relied upon in court etc. If those giving and recording statements/interviews are not capable of communicating the same language at the same level it would make a mockery of the process. Lawyers would have a field day and simply argue away that he/she was misunderstood etc, etc.
Also there's being able to speak a language, understand and write. Consider our own system of GCSE/A Level/Degree. I doubt anyone employed by police to act as an interpreter would meet the criteria below degree level.
In this case all the wit stats I've read make reference to an interpreter being present. None of them refer to police officers on the basis they were competent in English.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 15, 2020, 01:25:25 PM
MWT involves himself in high profile cases eg MM and the murder of Jill Dando but I can't see why anyone would consider his opinions anymore valid than anyone who posts here? These cases have one off features about them and therefore I don't see how MWT being a police officer many moons ago for about 12 years makes him an authority? The same can be said for David James Smith who doesn't even have the police experience to draw upon.
I think 'This Morning/Lorraine' might be better off having the likes of you and I 8(>(( ?>)()<
It's a very interesting and informative article by David James Smith, reproduced on the Icke Forum. Here is a link to the original story in the Sunday Times; https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/its-official-there-was-no-child-abuse-in-jersey-5xcb0j2xd7b\
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on April 28, 2020, 04:20:41 PM
G-Unit posted it http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1620.msg586500#msg586500
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 28, 2020, 04:26:00 PM
The article has been seen here before....not sure if its entirely accurate but does contain this...
The dog was brought in. The cadaver dog that alerts to human remains, the same dog that nearly did for Kate and Gerry McCann after it alerted at the boot of their car. Unlike the Portuguese police, apparently, Harper's team understood that the dog's alerts were not evidence of a crime being committed, merely an indicator of something to be explored. I have heard that Harper's replacements have spoken cynically about the dog, implying that its handler, Martin Grime, fixes the dog's demonstrations by priming it in advance with his own scent.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on April 28, 2020, 04:49:22 PM
What happened in Jersey is a perfect example of what goes wrong when senior police officers go unchecked.
As for Mark Williams-Thomas' theory that Maddie woke, wandered outside and was abducted, I think this is the only realistic theory of all those suggested over the last 13 years.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on April 29, 2020, 08:40:56 AM
What happened in Jersey is a perfect example of what goes wrong when senior police officers go unchecked.
As for Mark Williams-Thomas' theory that Maddie woke, wandered outside and was abducted, I think this is the only realistic theory of all those suggested over the last 13 years.
I believe that Madeleine was abducted, but I do understand for why you think as you do.
Amaral should never have been in charge of that case, let alone unchecked.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on April 29, 2020, 09:21:19 PM
What happened in Jersey is a perfect example of what goes wrong when senior police officers go unchecked.
As for Mark Williams-Thomas' theory that Maddie woke, wandered outside and was abducted, I think this is the only realistic theory of all those suggested over the last 13 years.
If you believe Kate and the open window ... and I do ... it blows the 'woke and wandered' scenario out of the water.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on April 30, 2020, 10:37:58 AM
If you believe Kate and the open window ... and I do ... it blows the 'woke and wandered' scenario out of the water.
Given your faith in the McCanns I'm not surprised you believe in the open window. Your belief can only rest on faith, of course, because there's no objective evidence.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2020, 11:32:16 AM
Given your faith in the McCanns I'm not surprised you believe in the open window. Your belief can only rest on faith, of course, because there's no objective evidence.
It isnt faith...its based on evidence. It can only be faith when there is no evidence. Its this sort of post which shows your bias
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on April 30, 2020, 01:28:23 PM
Given your faith in the McCanns I'm not surprised you believe in the open window. Your belief can only rest on faith, of course, because there's no objective evidence.
Amaral believed that the presence of Kate's fingerprints on the window glass was evidence she had staged a crime scene featuring an open window. Was his premise for such a belief based purely on faith? IYO what did those fingerprints signify, other than Kate moving the curtains aside & touching the glass?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 30, 2020, 01:38:39 PM
And no glove marks were found on that window. Burglars without gloves? The facts don't change, the only prints found were by KM and she claims to have never touched the window. The curtains were always closed she said in her book.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on April 30, 2020, 04:25:11 PM
If you believe Kate and the open window ... and I do ... it blows the 'woke and wandered' scenario out of the water.
Why should it? Only Kate McCann's fingerprints were found on the children's bedroom window which tends to support the proposition that it was she who opened it to look for a missing Madeleine. She claims she found it open but that could be down to traumatic memory loss, the same affliction suffered by Gerry that night.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2020, 05:34:15 PM
Why should it? Only Kate McCann's fingerprints were found on the children's bedroom window which tends to support the proposition that it was she who opened it to look for a missing Madeleine. She claims she found it open but that could be down to traumatic memory loss, the same affliction suffered by Gerry that night.
it all depends how thorough the forensic examination of the apartment was..how much you trust the PJ. Are we yo assume no one else ever touched the window....children...cleaners..other occupants...or was the forensic exam just not fit for purpose
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on April 30, 2020, 05:53:32 PM
Why should it? Only Kate McCann's fingerprints were found on the children's bedroom window which tends to support the proposition that it was she who opened it to look for a missing Madeleine. She claims she found it open but that could be down to traumatic memory loss, the same affliction suffered by Gerry that night.
No … it happened exactly as Kate McCann described and it is borne out by the evidence that the window was already open when she entered the room. There were no fingerprints lifted from the handle.
VESTIGES COLLECTED 5….. Fingerprints….Inside interior window of the children’s bedroom…..DBT…..Suf Observations: The fingerprint traces collected are identified as being the middle finger of the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), of the missing girl’s mother,
The right hand sliding glass was open. A person leaning forward to look through would support themselves using their right hand either on the wall or the windowsill. While placing the palm of their left hand on the frame of the already opened sliding section with fingers extending onto the glass to leave fingerprints.
That matches the description of events given by Kate McCann from which she has never wavered. It matches the forensic evidence as recorded in the PJ Files above. There is no forensic evidence that she opened the window, but the forensic evidence supports her statement that she found the window open and she leaned out.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on April 30, 2020, 05:54:42 PM
Given your faith in the McCanns I'm not surprised you believe in the open window. Your belief can only rest on faith, of course, because there's no objective evidence.
You are wrong on that.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on April 30, 2020, 06:03:39 PM
And no glove marks were found on that window. Burglars without gloves? The facts don't change, the only prints found were by KM and she claims to have never touched the window. The curtains were always closed she said in her book.
In her book she also described her horror when the curtains blew open because the window was open and rushing over to lean out the window to look for Madeleine who was missing from her bed.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on April 30, 2020, 07:53:15 PM
Explanations offered by the person who claimed the window was open aren't evidence that it was really open. It's from the same source!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 30, 2020, 07:58:57 PM
In her book she also described her horror when the curtains blew open because the window was open and rushing over to lean out the window to look for Madeleine who was missing from her bed.
Leaning out of the window is not in her statement on 4 May 2007. Go take a look.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Anthro on April 30, 2020, 08:13:21 PM
GA got this bit wrong. KM's prints were not "in a position of opening the window". Her 5 prints were actually all on the glass. Amaral and his break-in expert mistakenly used a photo of a GNR print from the edge of the lounge sliding door (thats how they get "in a position of opening") and treated it as KM's on the bedroom window. KM is 100% innocent IMO she genuinely found the window already open and leaned on it exactly as she says. JT likewise, 100% innocent, genuinely passed the chat and saw innocentman carrying his 2yr-old IMO. « Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 09:32:58 PM by pegasus »
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2020, 08:26:17 PM
it is evidence...but not proof. I dont think you understand what evidence means.
Evidence is something which can be collected by investigators. The confused uncorroborated claims by the mother of a missing child could never be considered as evidence.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on April 30, 2020, 08:52:46 PM
No … it happened exactly as Kate McCann described and it is borne out by the evidence that the window was already open when she entered the room. There were no fingerprints lifted from the handle.
VESTIGES COLLECTED 5….. Fingerprints….Inside interior window of the children’s bedroom…..DBT…..Suf Observations: The fingerprint traces collected are identified as being the middle finger of the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), of the missing girl’s mother,
The right hand sliding glass was open. A person leaning forward to look through would support themselves using their right hand either on the wall or the windowsill. While placing the palm of their left hand on the frame of the already opened sliding section with fingers extending onto the glass to leave fingerprints.
That matches the description of events given by Kate McCann from which she has never wavered. It matches the forensic evidence as recorded in the PJ Files above. There is no forensic evidence that she opened the window, but the forensic evidence supports her statement that she found the window open and she leaned out.
I disagree Brietta. Given the obstruction of the spare single bed below the window, someone opening the RHS sliding pane would release the latch and slide it using their left hand imo while steadying themselves by resting their right hand on the sill or window frame.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2020, 08:53:15 PM
Evidence is something which can be collected by investigators. The confused uncorroborated claims by the mother of a missing child could never be considered as evidence.
You are wrong John...a witness statement is evidence and would be admissible in court as evidence. It may be weak but its evidence.
What is a witness statement? 1. A witness statement is a document recording the evidence of a person, which is signed by that person to confirm that the contents of the statement are true.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on April 30, 2020, 09:05:23 PM
You are wrong John...a witness statement is evidence and would be admissible in court as evidence. It may be weak but its evidence.
What is a witness statement? 1. A witness statement is a document recording the evidence of a person, which is signed by that person to confirm that the contents of the statement are true.
It has no evidential reliability if uncorroborated. Now where have I heard that before... *%87
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2020, 09:09:59 PM
It has no evidential reliability if uncorroborated. Now where have I heard that before... *%87
It's your opinion that the statement has no evidential reliability... It was grimes opinion that the alerts had no evidential reliability There's a big difference
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 30, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
It's your opinion that the statement has no evidential reliability... It was grimes opinion that the alerts had no evidential reliability There's a big difference
It is better not to get confused about this.
Uncorroborated statement like " he pushed me to the ground and I hit my head" would be presented as -does the judge /jury believe that to have happened.
corroborated EVIDENCE " He pushed me to the ground and I hit my head" a video is shown of this taking place. The judge /jury can see it happened.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on April 30, 2020, 10:59:29 PM
Uncorroborated statement like " he pushed me to the ground and I hit my head" would be presented as -does the judge /jury believe that to have happened.
corroborated EVIDENCE " He pushed me to the ground and I hit my head" a video is shown of this taking place. The judge /jury can see it happened.
So if it is not recorded on video it hasn't happened. That is an interesting opinion to hold.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on April 30, 2020, 11:51:34 PM
I disagree Brietta. Given the obstruction of the spare single bed below the window, someone opening the RHS sliding pane would release the latch and slide it using their left hand imo while steadying themselves by resting their right hand on the sill or window frame.
The point is that Kate found the window open, not that she opened it.
Were I opening that window, I would release the catch (press the button in? using the thumb of my left hand) and slide it to the side using the same hand on the handle and leaving fingerprints behind. At no time would I have put my hand on the glass to slide the window open. Were I using the window as a support when leaning out my fingerprints would have been approximately in the position Kate's were.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on May 01, 2020, 12:58:51 AM
The point is that Kate found the window open, not that she opened it.
Were I opening that window, I would release the catch (press the button in? using the thumb of my left hand) and slide it to the side using the same hand on the handle and leaving fingerprints behind. At no time would I have put my hand on the glass to slide the window open. Were I using the window as a support when leaning out my fingerprints would have been approximately in the position Kate's were.
Excellent.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: sadie on May 01, 2020, 01:20:20 AM
The point is that Kate found the window open, not that she opened it.
Were I opening that window, I would release the catch (press the button in? using the thumb of my left hand) and slide it to the side using the same hand on the handle and leaving fingerprints behind. At no time would I have put my hand on the glass to slide the window open. Were I using the window as a support when leaning out my fingerprints would have been approximately in the position Kate's were.
With the window open already, all Kate had to do was slide it further open, using the handle, or maybe not even have to slide it at all if already fully open There was very limited space between the basket chair and the bed which would have made it tricky looking out. In fact, I doubt that she could fit both legs in the gap. Almost certainly in my opinion, she would have to stand on one leg, or place the second behind the first because of the lack of space.
To give her the stability to look out and down as thoroughly as possible, she would want good purchase on the floor and support on either side. Kate is no slouch, she probably leaned out as far as she could
I agree with Briettas thoughts that Kate would support herself as much as possible against the RH window frame, or wall, and on the left hand side benefit with support in the middle of the window where her prints were found: That would steady her as well
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: sadie on May 01, 2020, 02:20:28 AM
GA got this bit wrong. KM's prints were not "in a position of opening the window". Her 5 prints were actually all on the glass. Amaral and his break-in expert mistakenly used a photo of a GNR print from the edge of the lounge sliding door (thats how they get "in a position of opening") and treated it as KM's on the bedroom window. KM is 100% innocent IMO she genuinely found the window already open and leaned on it exactly as she says. JT likewise, 100% innocent, genuinely passed the chat and saw innocentman carrying his 2yr-old IMO. « Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 09:32:58 PM by pegasus »
Well spotted Anthro.
So Amaral used prints of the GNR officer from the lounge patio door ... and passed them off as Kates prints on Madeleines windows.
Boy oh Boy! What was going on?
I agree, KM is 100% innocent IMO she genuinely found the window already open and leaned on it exactly as she says.
However due to timings of the Gerry/Jez chat and that of Innocent man coming home, I am inclined to disagree with you on your second thoughts about Innocent man.
Also, Jane saw him going in an easterly direction along Rua Agostinho da Silva after crossing the road that Jane was walking up. In order to have entered his apartment building, Innocent man would have had to deflect right and travel 8 metres in a southerly direction down the very, fairly narrow road that Jane was walking up.
His apartment block had only the one entrance in and it was at least 8 metres south of where Jane saw him walking along Agostinho.
I think that Jane saw Tannerman and he was carrying Madeleine.
As a woman on her own, after dark, in a poorly lit road, imo Jane would have kept a pretty close eye on where he went.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on May 01, 2020, 08:18:03 AM
So if it is not recorded on video it hasn't happened. That is an interesting opinion to hold.
The point is that Kate's claim is uncorroborated except by her husband. Therefore it's not a fact, no matter how many people believe it.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on May 01, 2020, 10:20:53 AM
Well said Brietta - Were I opening that window, I would release the catch (press the button in? using the thumb of my left hand) and slide it to the side using the same hand on the handle and leaving fingerprints behind.
If trying to stage an abduction, I would then wipe my finger prints away.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2020, 10:56:23 AM
Uncorroborated statement like " he pushed me to the ground and I hit my head" would be presented as -does the judge /jury believe that to have happened.
corroborated EVIDENCE " He pushed me to the ground and I hit my head" a video is shown of this taking place. The judge /jury can see it happened.
Im certainly not confused....the first statemnt is evidence given by the witness....thats evidence
The second is proof
I feel some posters are confused between evidence and proof
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2020, 11:06:09 AM
The point is that Kate's claim is uncorroborated except by her husband. Therefore it's not a fact, no matter how many people believe it.
it depends if Kate is telling the truth. Based on all the evidence it would seem she is. Certainly it seems both SY and the PJ beleive she is truthful.
That doesnt make it afact that the window was open but it makes it highly likeley.
It isnt a fact that Barry George is innocent but its highly likely. It isnt a fact that David Gilroy is guilty...but its highly likeley. I beleive both those statemets are true even though they are not facts....nothing to do with faith...but based on the evidence. Thats how justice works.
It seems to me that many sceptics wont accept anything in the McCann case unles there is absolute truth but are more than happy to accept things in other cases. You beleive the dogs alerted to cadaver odour even though its not a fact for instance.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on May 01, 2020, 12:34:24 PM
GA got this bit wrong. KM's prints were not "in a position of opening the window". Her 5 prints were actually all on the glass. Amaral and his break-in expert mistakenly used a photo of a GNR print from the edge of the lounge sliding door (thats how they get "in a position of opening") and treated it as KM's on the bedroom window. KM is 100% innocent IMO she genuinely found the window already open and leaned on it exactly as she says. JT likewise, 100% innocent, genuinely passed the chat and saw innocentman carrying his 2yr-old IMO. « Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 09:32:58 PM by pegasus »
It was good to see Pegasus quoted again. It was impossible for anyone no matter which side of the divide they were on to fault the reasoning behind the conclusions reached in many of his/her posts.
Pegasus was of the opinion that no-one either went in or out via the window and was also convinced of Kate McCann’s reliability as a witness as well as being convinced of her innocence.
Quote 5 prints on the glass ("vidro") are consistent with leaning on an already-open window to look out IMO. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.msg118208#msg118208
:::: :::: :::: :::: :::: :::: ::::
Pegasus was the first person I know of who noticed the anomaly of Amaral’s misidentification of the actual location of Kate’s fingerprints despite the fact he was reporting from the crime scene. There really had to be a reason for what is basically in my opinion, a lie. I wonder what it was.
:::: :::: :::: :::: :::: :::: ::::
Snip www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=x_ZdDTsFC2g#t=2761 At exactly 46:30 in this video is a photo of a print with a ruler above it for scale. That photo is presented in the video as the crucial evidence that KM opened the window. (There is a closeup of the same photo at exactly 46:37).
However IMO the print in that photo is not KM's (and the photo is not even of the bedroom window). http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.msg146103#msg146103
Page 885 definitely shows fingerprints of KM. A total of 5 prints (from two fingers of left hand) on the glass of the north bedroom window. (Edited to correct fingers)
Now a question for you, whose is the print under the ruler in the photo at exactly 46:30 (and in closeup at exactly 46:37) in the bedroom window part of the video about KM opening the window? Do you think that is KM's finger print on the bedroom window? IMO it's not http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.msg146117#msg146117
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 01, 2020, 01:31:19 PM
GA got this bit wrong. KM's prints were not "in a position of opening the window". Her 5 prints were actually all on the glass. Amaral and his break-in expert mistakenly used a photo of a GNR print from the edge of the lounge sliding door (thats how they get "in a position of opening") and treated it as KM's on the bedroom window. KM is 100% innocent IMO she genuinely found the window already open and leaned on it exactly as she says. JT likewise, 100% innocent, genuinely passed the chat and saw innocentman carrying his 2yr-old IMO. « Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 09:32:58 PM by pegasus »
Please provide the cite for leaning on the window by KM?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: misty on May 01, 2020, 01:47:46 PM
Please provide the cite for leaning on the window by KM?
Here's a SS from Amaral's documentary portraying Kate leaning out the open window.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 01, 2020, 06:15:14 PM
Amaral believes she opened the window to explain her fingerprints.
Her first statement on 4 May 2007 doesn't even mention going between the cots to the window.
Faced with this situation,she verified that the twins were in their respective beds, unlike Madeleine, who had disappeared. The cover was pulled back and the toys were on the pillow as usual. After searching the whole apartment thoroughly, the interviewee went back, scared and shocked, to the restaurant, to alert her husband and the others to the disappearance. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
I bet you her story changed after the files were released but pre files you will find no mention of her going to the window. Just seeing the whooshing curtains and noticing the open window and raised shutters then she checked on the twins and searched the apartment in 30 seconds before running out to get help.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on May 01, 2020, 06:23:26 PM
Here's a SS from Amaral's documentary portraying Kate leaning out the open window.
(https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/GAD/41.jpg)
Thanks for that Misty.
That screenshot was taken from footage shot in the actual location from which Madeleine disappeared with the bed, the chair and the cots in situ.
The actor portraying Kate McCann was able to replicate Kate's description of events from bedroom door to bedroom window without difficulty. It might have been a tight squeeze but Amaral has demonstrably given us proof positive that what Kate described happened exactly as she said it did and verifies her account.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 01, 2020, 06:35:10 PM
Evidence is what is important and there was no evidence in her statement about going to the window and looking through it to see an abductor. She has never said the car park was empty. You know why? because she never looked out the window into the car park. That's why!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on May 01, 2020, 06:42:03 PM
The typed timeline given to the PJ on 10th May says that when the bedroom door slammed Kate doesn't open it immediately, she turns away and goes to check if the patio door is open. Then she returns to the bedroom and opens the door to see if the noise woke the children. Noticing that Madeleine was missing, "She checks the other single bed in the room and also Kate and Gerry's beds. Then she double checks that Madeleine was not in her bedroom again. At this point, she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtain and notices the shutter was completely raised, and the window pushed open to the left as far as possible." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
There's no mention of looking out of the window, no mention of the room being lighter than normal and despite checking the bed under the window she didn't notice the shutters were raised until the curtains blew into the room. It seems the 'looking out of the window' was indeed a late addition to her story.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on May 01, 2020, 07:05:15 PM
Evidence is what is important and there was no evidence in her statement about going to the window and looking through it to see an abductor. She has never said the car park was empty. You know why? because she never looked out the window into the car park. That's why!
Why do you think Amaral used the sequence as described in his video of his book. He has assured that there is nothing in his book which is not in the files.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on May 01, 2020, 08:00:48 PM
That screenshot was taken from footage shot in the actual location from which Madeleine disappeared with the bed, the chair and the cots in situ.
The actor portraying Kate McCann was able to replicate Kate's description of events from bedroom door to bedroom window without difficulty. It might have been a tight squeeze but Amaral has demonstrably given us proof positive that what Kate described happened exactly as she said it did and verifies her account.
The only thing that clip proves is that an actress looked out of a window. It certainly isn't proof that Kate McCann did. I don't know why the documentary makers had 'Kate' looking out of the window, it wasn't written into Amaral's book as a fact.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 01, 2020, 08:30:56 PM
Why do you think Amaral used the sequence as described in his video of his book. He has assured that there is nothing in his book which is not in the files.
Kate said no comment to all their questions about the crime scene and what actually happened. And the police won't forget it. All we get is whooshing curtains and not one word about checking the car park for any sign of her. In her statement the first thing she does after noticing the window open is checking the twins and NOT checking the car park at all!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on May 02, 2020, 10:05:26 AM
Evidence is what is important and there was no evidence in her statement about going to the window and looking through it to see an abductor. She has never said the car park was empty. You know why? because she never looked out the window into the car park. That's why!
a Why would Kate mention in her statement of the 4th May that she looked out of the window? Kate said she searched the apartment, that is enough.
Brietta has posted how someone would open the window - Were I opening that window, I would release the catch (press the button in? using the thumb of my left hand) and slide it to the side using the same hand on the handle and leaving fingerprints behind. end of quote There would have been no reason for Kate's finger prints to be on the window where they were found had she opened it as Brietta explained.
Now if I was faking an abduction I would open the window as Brietta explained and then wipe my fingerprints away. Kate's finger prints was on the window showing that she leaned out to look out of the window.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on May 02, 2020, 10:11:02 AM
Kate said no comment to all their questions about the crime scene and what actually happened. And the police won't forget it. All we get is whooshing curtains and not one word about checking the car park for any sign of her. In her statement the first thing she does after noticing the window open is checking the twins and NOT checking the car park at all!
If I was interrogated for hours and accused of faking an abduction. Being told that my child was dead that there was 100% DNA of Madeleine to prove that she was dead. That I had faked an abduction and hidden my child's body and that I must have had a black out and can't remember what I had done. In absolute despair I would not answer the questions either. Put yourself in Kate's position, they were twisting evidence, lying about evidence. Kate was afraid they would arrest her, that they wouldn't be looking for Madeleine that the case would be closed because according to the Portuguese police they had solved the case. Would you have answered any questions that could be twisted and used against you?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2020, 11:21:00 AM
a Why would Kate mention in her statement of the 4th May that she looked out of the window? Kate said she searched the apartment, that is enough.
Brietta has posted how someone would open the window - Were I opening that window, I would release the catch (press the button in? using the thumb of my left hand) and slide it to the side using the same hand on the handle and leaving fingerprints behind. end of quote There would have been no reason for Kate's palm print to be on the window had she opened it as Brietta explained.
Now if I was faking an abduction I would open the window as Brietta explained and then wipe my fingerprints away. Kate's palm print was on the window showing that she leaned out to look out of the window.
I thought the palm print was on the patio doors, and Kate's finger prints were on the children's bedroom window?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: John on May 02, 2020, 12:05:32 PM
(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1620.0;attach=17261;image]) Thanks for that Misty.
That screenshot was taken from footage shot in the actual location from which Madeleine disappeared with the bed, the chair and the cots in situ.
The actor portraying Kate McCann was able to replicate Kate's description of events from bedroom door to bedroom window without difficulty. It might have been a tight squeeze but Amaral has demonstrably given us proof positive that what Kate described happened exactly as she said it did and verifies her account.
I believe that is a very true depiction of the event with left hand doing all the work, the caption underneath says it all imo.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 02, 2020, 12:52:17 PM
a Why would Kate mention in her statement of the 4th May that she looked out of the window? Kate said she searched the apartment, that is enough.
Brietta has posted how someone would open the window - Were I opening that window, I would release the catch (press the button in? using the thumb of my left hand) and slide it to the side using the same hand on the handle and leaving fingerprints behind. end of quote There would have been no reason for Kate's palm print to be on the window had she opened it as Brietta explained.
Now if I was faking an abduction I would open the window as Brietta explained and then wipe my fingerprints away. Kate's palm print was on the window showing that she leaned out to look out of the window.
The first thing most would do after noticing an open window and an empty bed would go straight to the window and look out of it for any sign of her in that car park! For that to be missing in her statement is highly suspicious!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2020, 12:53:55 PM
The first thing most would do after noticing an open window and an empty bed would go straight to the window and look out of it for any sign of her in that car park! For that to be missing in her statement is highly suspicious!
we dont have her statement...we only have what the interpreter decide to put in it
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on May 02, 2020, 12:56:58 PM
The first thing most would do after noticing an open window and an empty bed would go straight to the window and look out of it for any sign of her in that car park! For that to be missing in her statement is highly suspicious!
So Kate should have said - I searched in the cupboards, I looked out the window, I searched our bedroom I searched the bathroom, kitchen etc. Instead she said she searched the apartment.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 02, 2020, 04:21:08 PM
At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
Faced with this situation,she verified that the twins were in their respective beds, unlike Madeleine, who had disappeared. The cover was pulled back and the toys were on the pillow as usual. After searching the whole apartment thoroughly, the interviewee went back, scared and shocked, to the restaurant, to alert her husband and the others to the disappearance.
The first thing most would do after noticing an open window and an empty bed would go straight to the window and look out of it for any sign of her in that car park! For that to be missing in her statement is highly suspicious!
There is a fairly high wall on the other side of the walkway in front of Madeleines window. Because of this wall, I doubt that Kate would be able to see Madeleine if she were on the car park, just as she (Kate) would only be able to see the tops of cars and maybe not even that.
If Kate was physically unable to see a child of Madeleines height, why should she mention it?
Why should she mention cars anyway? No abductor would be daft enough to leave his car with number plate showing outside the place he was illegaly entering. Think about it!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2020, 08:04:01 AM
So Kate should have said - I searched in the cupboards, I looked out the window, I searched our bedroom I searched the bathroom, kitchen etc. Instead she said she searched the apartment.
She gave all those details when she produced the typed timeline; except she forgot to mention looking out of the window.
She checks the other single bed in the room and also Kate and Gerry's beds. Then she double checks that Madeleine was not in her bedroom again. At this point, she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtain and notices the shutter was completely raised, and the window pushed open to the left as far as possible. She then completes a check of the bathroom, kitchen and wardrobes. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2020, 09:52:29 AM
She gave all those details when she produced the typed timeline; except she forgot to mention looking out of the window.
She checks the other single bed in the room and also Kate and Gerry's beds. Then she double checks that Madeleine was not in her bedroom again. At this point, she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtain and notices the shutter was completely raised, and the window pushed open to the left as far as possible. She then completes a check of the bathroom, kitchen and wardrobes. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
kate never produced a typed timeline...the interpreter did..please try and stick to the true facts...we dont know what kate said and what was left out....only what the interpreter chose to write down...that is a fact. kate was interviewed for many hours...its quite reaonable to deduce that not everything she said was written down
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 03, 2020, 01:00:22 PM
There is a fairly high wall on the other side of the walkway in front of Madeleines window. Because of this wall, I doubt that Kate would be able to see Madeleine if she were on the car park, just as she (Kate) would only be able to see the tops of cars and maybe not even that.
If Kate was physically unable to see a child of Madeleines height, why should she mention it?
Why should she mention cars anyway? No abductor would be daft enough to leave his car with number plate showing outside the place he was illegaly entering. Think about it!
Your first natural reaction would be to go straight to the open window and look through it for any sign of your missing daughter. There was a street light next to the car park entrance so anybody would be able to see.
Your first natural reaction would be to go straight to the open window and look through it for any sign of your missing daughter. There was a street light next to the car park entrance so anybody would be able to see.
If it was me, I would not let myself go to the worst scenario once discovered my child is not in her bed. I would do what I believe most parents would - looking for my child in the immediate vicinity i.e the apartment. Looking outside of the window and beyond would be secondary, for me.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2020, 02:48:22 PM
kate never produced a typed timeline...the interpreter did..please try and stick to the true facts...we dont know what kate said and what was left out....only what the interpreter chose to write down...that is a fact. kate was interviewed for many hours...its quite reaonable to deduce that not everything she said was written down
You obviously don't know who produced the typed timeline and when. How many years have you followed this case?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 03, 2020, 03:12:05 PM
If it was me, I would not let myself go to the worst scenario once discovered my child is not in her bed. I would do what I believe most parents would - looking for my child in the immediate vicinity i.e the apartment. Looking outside of the window and beyond would be secondary, for me.
A window was open and the bed was empty! Where do you think your child would be when KM said Madeleine couldn't have opened it and raised those shutters? Immediately you would go to the window and take a look outside.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Anthro on May 03, 2020, 06:11:03 PM
A window was open and the bed was empty! Where do you think your child would be when KM said Madeleine couldn't have opened it and raised those shutters? Im Immediately you would go to the window and take a look outside.
Exactly my point. Therefore, she first searched the apartment.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 03, 2020, 08:35:46 PM
You would first look through the open window with the child missing from her bed. With the bedroom door being open, KM said she checked their bed for Madeleine before going back and then noticing the whooshing curtains and open window so of course you would then go straight to the window and look outside.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Anthro on May 03, 2020, 09:30:00 PM
You would first look through the open window with the child missing from her bed. With the bedroom door being open, KM said she checked their bed for Madeleine before going back and then noticing the whooshing curtains and open window so of course you would then go straight to the window and look outside.
I get what you are saying. To me, the thought of someone having taken my child, would not be my first thought, even though the window was open. I would rather check and make sure that she is not somewhere in the apartment, i.e using the bathroom, as a first step.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 03, 2020, 09:53:48 PM
That doesn't make any sense to me because it was all quiet inside and the window should not have been open so would go straight to it.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on May 04, 2020, 08:03:00 PM
It was not immediately apparent that the window was open.
And when it became apparent she looked at it then carried on searching the apartment;
She runs over, pulls open the curtain and notices the shutter was completely raised, and the window pushed open to the left as far as possible. She then completes a check of the bathroom, kitchen and wardrobes. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 05, 2020, 01:04:37 AM
It was not immediately apparent that the window was open.
Your missing the point. With the window open your first thought is to go to it and look outside. Not look at it and take a look in the wardrobe instead *%87
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on May 05, 2020, 01:48:33 AM
Your missing the point. With the window open your first thought is to go to it and look outside. Not look at it and take a look in the wardrobe instead *%87
Once it is established that a child is missing the first reaction should be to raise the alarm and that is precisely what Kate did.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on May 05, 2020, 12:30:12 PM
Your missing the point. With the window open your first thought is to go to it and look outside. Not look at it and take a look in the wardrobe instead *%87
If Kate had staged an abduction, wouldn't you think she would attract attention to the window by saying she looked out of it?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 05, 2020, 01:23:18 PM
No because it's a normal reaction after noticing to an open window to go to it and look outside and see what the hell is going on! And that is missing from her statement.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 05, 2020, 04:26:10 PM
Does anyone really care anymore what some people think Kate should have done in the circumstances? It really is time to move onIMO.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on May 05, 2020, 06:48:58 PM
Does anyone really care anymore what some people think Kate should have done in the circumstances? It really is time to move onIMO.
It began because some people believe there was an open window but the only evidence they can offer is that Kate McCann looked out of it. For which the only evidence is that she (eventually) said she did.
A person can't corroberate their own evidence of course, someone else is needed to do that. The only evidence that exists is that Kate McCann touched the inside of that window at some point.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 05, 2020, 06:55:42 PM
It began because some people believe there was an open window but the only evidence they can offer is that Kate McCann looked out of it. For which the only evidence is that she (eventually) said she did.
A person can't corroberate their own evidence of course, someone else is needed to do that. The only evidence that exists is that Kate McCann touched the inside of that window at some point.
No amount of you chatting on about it is going to get you any closer to the truth about what she did that night so IMo it’s all a waste of your time and effort. Seriously doesn’t this bore you to tears now? You know full well an independent witness verified the window was open as well but you choose to ignore it. Why?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on May 05, 2020, 07:14:21 PM
Does anyone really care anymore what some people think Kate should have done in the circumstances? It really is time to move onIMO.
I don't, apart from finding it all incredibly tiresome and boring.
If some wish to think that Kate, Gerry and Robert Murat were not vindicated by the archiving of the case in 2008, that is surely their prerogative.
I think it must take a stout heart to fly in the face of investigations into Madeleine's disappearance by Scotland Yard and the Judicial Police neither of which consider her parents suspects but which are investigating stranger abduction, to fly the flag for the very suspect case promoted by Amaral.
I think it will be impossible for some to move on from that belief just as some of the Peoples Temple cultists couldn't give up on theirs. Nowt as funny as folk 🙄
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 05, 2020, 07:31:21 PM
Perhaps we could move the debate onto Masonic ritual killing, like it has been on the Bamber board, just for something different to talk about for a change. Anyone want to put forward that theory? Let’s get Aunt Agatha on to it.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on May 05, 2020, 07:35:47 PM
Perhaps we could move the debate onto Masonic ritual killing, like it has been on the Bamber board, just for something different to talk about for a change. Anyone want to put forward that theory? Let’s get Aunt Agatha on to it.
Nooooo. Pleeease.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on May 06, 2020, 09:01:23 AM
No amount of you chatting on about it is going to get you any closer to the truth about what she did that night so IMo it’s all a waste of your time and effort. Seriously doesn’t this bore you to tears now? You know full well an independent witness verified the window was open as well but you choose to ignore it. Why?
I didn't raise the subject of the open window, I commented because it was suggested as some sort of evidence;
"If you believe Kate and the open window ... and I do ... it blows the 'woke and wandered' scenario out of the water." http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1620.msg586880#msg586880
It wasn't possible for your witness to see the window, given the timeframe it was closed before she arrived in 5A.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2020, 09:39:59 AM
I didn't raise the subject of the open window, I commented because it was suggested as some sort of evidence;
"If you believe Kate and the open window ... and I do ... it blows the 'woke and wandered' scenario out of the water." http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1620.msg586880#msg586880
It wasn't possible for your witness to see the window, given the timeframe it was closed before she arrived in 5A.
Kates statement that the window was open is evidence... You seemed to think it wasn't. We don't have to prove it was open to show the statement is evidence
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on May 06, 2020, 11:39:54 AM
Kates statement that the window was open is evidence... You seemed to think it wasn't. We don't have to prove it was open to show the statement is evidence
Some are using it as proof that woke and wandered didn't happen.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2020, 12:21:07 PM
Some are using it as proof that woke and wandered didn't happen.
Cite.... You are making things up... No one's mentioned proof ... It's evidence
Woke and wandered could well have happened... Even with an open window. However archiving report said w and w was highly unlikely... We don't know on what basis they said that
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2020, 01:54:50 PM
The evidence depends on who opened the window.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2020, 06:09:25 PM
I didn't raise the subject of the open window, I commented because it was suggested as some sort of evidence;
"If you believe Kate and the open window ... and I do ... it blows the 'woke and wandered' scenario out of the water." http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1620.msg586880#msg586880
It wasn't possible for your witness to see the window, given the timeframe it was closed before she arrived in 5A.
She said she saw it open. You said there was no evidence that it was. There is. Deal with it.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2020, 06:11:14 PM
Why would Kate open the window.... And then close it... If she opened it wouldn't she want everyone to see it open
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2020, 09:02:42 PM
Maybe she closed it because of the twins. Maybe she panicked as seen in that state by others moments later. As this case obviously lacks witnesses (Madeleine last seen at 17:30 by an independent witness) it was always going to rely on circumstantial evidence to solve it.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on May 07, 2020, 11:52:53 AM
Maybe she closed it because of the twins. Maybe she panicked as seen in that state by others moments later. As this case obviously lacks witnesses (Madeleine last seen at 17:30 by an independent witness) it was always going to rely on circumstantial evidence to solve it.
Madeleine may very well have been seen being carried from the apartment at around 9.15pm. Had the witness enjoyed the same benefit of hindsight of which many aficionados of Madeleine's case appear to have an expertise, she would have screamed for assistance from Jerry, who she had just passed and given pursuit herself.
Not having advantage of prescience and despite the sighting giving her pause for thought she continued on her way entirely unaware of the significance of what she had seen. Had she been a couple of minutes earlier and was able to view the whole scenario of the unknown child carrier leaving the environs of block five and being close enough to recognise the child being carried, that would probably have put an entirely different complexion on the event ... and you and I would not have been having this conversation.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on June 12, 2020, 12:18:59 AM
Well said Brietta - Were I opening that window, I would release the catch (press the button in? using the thumb of my left hand) and slide it to the side using the same hand on the handle and leaving fingerprints behind.
If trying to stage an abduction, I would then wipe my finger prints away.
An abductor would wear gloves!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on June 12, 2020, 03:25:34 AM
Madeleine may very well have been seen being carried from the apartment at around 9.15pm. Had the witness enjoyed the same benefit of hindsight of which many aficionados of Madeleine's case appear to have an expertise, she would have screamed for assistance from Jerry, who she had just passed and given pursuit herself.
Not having advantage of prescience and despite the sighting giving her pause for thought she continued on her way entirely unaware of the significance of what she had seen. Had she been a couple of minutes earlier and was able to view the whole scenario of the unknown child carrier leaving the environs of block five and being close enough to recognise the child being carried, that would probably have put an entirely different complexion on the event ... and you and I would not have been having this conversation.
But is there anyone that still believes Tanner saw someone carrying MM away? Even the joke (imo) Crimewatch of October 2013 and OG "are almost certain now" that Tanner saw someone that "was not the abductor." I do believe the line "the e-fits are clear" is spot on when they show Smithman though!!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on June 12, 2020, 04:51:10 AM
Do you seriously believe that an abductor climbed in or out of the window in the bedroom?
The window was open and it is known that burglars came and went using windows in Praia da luz. Mrs Fenn disturbed a burglar doing just that in the flat immediately above the McCann apartment.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Brietta on June 12, 2020, 05:21:30 AM
But is there anyone that still believes Tanner saw someone carrying MM away? Even the joke (imo) Crimewatch of October 2013 and OG "are almost certain now" that Tanner saw someone that "was not the abductor." I do believe the line "the e-fits are clear" is spot on when they show Smithman though!!
For many years Jane Tanner was labelled a liar because she knew what she had seen and bore witness to it.
How on earth can you possibly know anything at all about the efits you think might be 'Smithman' when Smiths didn't see the man's face. Snip — States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph. Martin Smith — Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child. Aoife Smith — States that it would not be possible to recognize the individual in person or via photograph. Peter Smith https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2020, 07:24:17 AM
Do you seriously believe that an abductor climbed in or out of the window in the bedroom?
I am open minded about it. It’s not an impossibility, burglars have been known to come and go via windows before without leaving swathes of evidence, especially ones that are well practiced.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Snowgirl on June 12, 2020, 01:12:42 PM
I am open minded about it. It’s not an impossibility, burglars have been known to come and go via windows before without leaving swathes of evidence, especially ones that are well practiced.
Have you not seen the demonstration one of the PJ ....the heavy grey moustached one ,his name eludes me ....gave to Amaral in the bedroom ? The bed under the window would have had to be balanced on trying to get up to the window while carrying a child . He declared it an impossibility . Furthermore there was no forensic evidence to suggest that had taken place ....inside or out . No indentation you might expect on the bed .
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 12, 2020, 01:26:37 PM
Have you not seen the demonstration one of the PJ ....the heavy grey moustached one ,his name eludes me ....gave to Amaral in the bedroom ? The bed under the window would have had to be balanced on trying to get up to the window while carrying a child . He declared it a impossibility . Furthermore there was no forensic evidence to suggest that had taken place ....inside or out . No indentation you might expect on the bed .
Could have entered through window and left through front door
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 12, 2020, 01:27:17 PM
Have you not seen the demonstration one of the PJ ....the heavy grey moustached one ,his name eludes me ....gave to Amaral in the bedroom ? The bed under the window would have had to be balanced on trying to get up to the window while carrying a child . He declared it a impossibility . Furthermore there was no forensic evidence to suggest that had taken place ....inside or out . No indentation you might expect on the bed .
Why would an abductor go through the window carrying Madeleine? He may have handed her through the window to an accomplice or went out through the front door. I don't think he was working alone.
As for the bed, it hadn't been made after Kate slept in it Wednesday night, the bedding was crumpled so how on earth they could say there was no indentation on the bed.
Funny isn't it. The maid is supposed to have cleaned the windows, yet she didn't make the bed in the children's bedroom
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on June 12, 2020, 01:30:44 PM
Could have entered through window and left through front door
Well of course but you’re not thinking straight ,no forensic evidence outside ...... are you aware at what level that window was at? No indentation on that bed . No evidence of an intruder .
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on June 12, 2020, 01:36:08 PM
Well of course but you’re not thinking straight ,no forensic evidence outside ...... are you aware at what level that window was at? No indentation on that bed . No evidence of an intruder .
What forensic evidence would be outside? If it was this Christian B he was over six feet tall he could step into the bedroom. The bed was a mess they wouldn't have noticed an indentation if there was one.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Snowgirl on June 12, 2020, 01:37:47 PM
Why would an abductor go through the window carrying Madeleine? He may have handed her through the window to an accomplice or went out through the front door. I don't think he was working alone.
As for the bed, it hadn't been made after Kate slept in it Wednesday night, the bedding was crumpled so how on earth they could say there was no indentation on the bed.
Funny isn't it. The maid is supposed to have cleaned the windows, yet she didn't make the bed in the children's bedroom
Look at foto9 Page 17 , bedroom in the PJ files . It doesn’t look crumpled to me . Despite you suggest he went in by the door even working with an accomplice why would he try to negotiate passing a child through a window to another ? Wouldn’t there have been a bigger risk there than going out the same way he entered ?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on June 12, 2020, 01:38:12 PM
Have you not seen the demonstration one of the PJ ....the heavy grey moustached one ,his name eludes me ....gave to Amaral in the bedroom ? The bed under the window would have had to be balanced on trying to get up to the window while carrying a child . He declared it an impossibility . Furthermore there was no forensic evidence to suggest that had taken place ....inside or out . No indentation you might expect on the bed .
Wrong. There was space to stand at the end of the bed.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Snowgirl on June 12, 2020, 01:41:41 PM
Glove marks? Now what would they look like I wonder.
Glove prints, also sometimes described as gloveprints or glove marks, are latent, fingerprint-like impressions that are transferred to a surface or object by an individual who is wearing gloves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glove_prints
Well of course but you’re not thinking straight ,no forensic evidence outside ...... are you aware at what level that window was at? No indentation on that bed . No evidence of an intruder .
no forensic evidence FOUND...by the inept PJ. An abductor may well have left evidence but if the police serach is poor...sending sheets to the laundry for instance
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on June 12, 2020, 01:54:40 PM
Glove prints, also sometimes described as gloveprints or glove marks, are latent, fingerprint-like impressions that are transferred to a surface or object by an individual who is wearing gloves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glove_prints
If the person who was breaking into apartments to burgle and assault children turns out to be this Christian B then he wore covers on his feet the same as surgeons wear.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 12, 2020, 02:07:52 PM
No one here can show that it was impossible for an abductor to have entered that apartment and taken maddie.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 12, 2020, 02:42:18 PM
As a criminologist, former detective and authority on paedophile crimes, I have followed the Madeleine McCann case from the very beginning.
What happened to her on that fateful night in May 2007? Where is she now, is she alive or dead? Was she murdered in her parent's apartment, and if so by whom?
Was she abducted from where she slept in between her brother and sister who remained asleep throughout?
Or did she wander out of the apartment looking for her parents and become the victim of an opportunistic predatory paedophile, who either used her for his own sexual gratification or smuggled her out of the country?
I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment.
She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar.
It was at this point that she was most likely abducted by an opportunistic predatory paedophile.
Interestingly the police dogs first tracked a scent down this exact route. Unfortunately, although it is within range of the supermarket CCTV it was not working.
I don't believe a paedophile was watching the apartment nor do I believe an offender entered the apartment - this would be too high-risk.
So how do you account for the window being open? I believe Kate when she says the window was open.
I would account for it by it not being open. Unless we're extending the criminal stupidity of CB to unnecessarily breaking and entering, as the patio door is unlocked.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: kizzy on October 15, 2020, 10:19:51 AM
I would account for it by it not being open. Unless we're extending the criminal stupidity of CB to unnecessarily breaking and entering, as the patio door is unlocked.
Mitchell in oct 2007,stated there was no sign of a break in.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 15, 2020, 10:40:03 AM
So how do you account for the window being open? I believe Kate when she says the window was open.
As you pinpointed, the existence of the open window depends on believing the witnesses who claimed to have seen it. In any event, it doesn't exclude the possibility that Madeleine left the apartment by the patio doors. According to her mother they were left open for that very purpose.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: barrier on October 15, 2020, 10:41:27 AM
This to me is the only way Charlie boy is involved,opportunist.
I agree. The woke and wandered scenario is the only one that makes any sense. Kate McCann even admitted that they left the patio door open in case Maddie came looking for them. Unbelievably irresponsible for sure!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: The General on October 15, 2020, 11:57:28 AM
I agree. The woke and wandered scenario is the only one that makes any sense. Kate McCann even admitted that they left the patio door open in case Maddie came looking for them. Unbelievably irresponsible for sure!
...and with the twins apparently sleeping in cots, then the only one of the children who was able to get out in some way did. As for a random paedo stumbling upon a bewildered, sobbing child, snatching her and remaining at liberty ever since leaving no trace whatsoever, that would be a remarkably coincidental event. Too remarkable in fact.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: barrier on October 15, 2020, 12:19:23 PM
...and with the twins apparently sleeping in cots, then the only one of the children who was able to get out in some way did. As for a random paedo stumbling upon a bewildered, sobbing child, snatching her and remaining at liberty ever since leaving no trace whatsoever, that would be a remarkably coincidental event. Too remarkable in fact.
Did Robert Black plan upon his victims or opportunist?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: The General on October 15, 2020, 12:40:44 PM
Did Robert Black plan upon his victims or opportunist?
I'm thinking more the coincidence of those two extraordinary events coming together - sinister serendipity. Plus factor in the fact that, for CB, this would be a quantum leap in his development (as far as we know).
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: barrier on October 15, 2020, 12:43:59 PM
I'm thinking more the coincidence of those two extraordinary events coming together - sinister serendipity.
Indeed but to marry up CB with Madeleine's demise they had to come together, imo obviously not in 5a, so where? unless of course which seems the more likely they didn't.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: The General on October 15, 2020, 12:48:06 PM
Indeed but to marry up CB with Madeleine's demise they had to come together, imo obviously not in 5a, so where? unless of course which seems the more likely they didn't.
They absolutely didn't. In fact I don't think any chance paedo stumbled upon her.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 15, 2020, 01:28:02 PM
...and with the twins apparently sleeping in cots, then the only one of the children who was able to get out in some way did. As for a random paedo stumbling upon a bewildered, sobbing child, snatching her and remaining at liberty ever since leaving no trace whatsoever, that would be a remarkably coincidental event. Too remarkable in fact.
Happens all the time. Kids get abducted from the footpath.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: The General on October 15, 2020, 01:49:54 PM
Happens all the time. Kids get abducted from the footpath.
Yes they do, with a paedo in predator mode, on the hunt for a victim as a purposeful act. What's the chances of a paedo being on the prowl et voila, manna from heaven, whodathunkit, a helpless child right there.....
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 15, 2020, 02:00:35 PM
Yes they do, with a paedo in predator mode, on the hunt for a victim as a purposeful act. What's the chances of a paedo being on the prowl et voila, manna from heaven, whodathunkit, a helpless child right there.....
It's about as likely as a gang of child abductors being in Luz looking for a victim and finding a couple leaving their kids home alone every night.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 15, 2020, 02:02:08 PM
I agree. The woke and wandered scenario is the only one that makes any sense. Kate McCann even admitted that they left the patio door open in case Maddie came looking for them. Unbelievably irresponsible for sure!
Jez was walking those streets, regular coming and goings and nobody saw her? A paedo is there at the right time when the streets were quiet. Not likely. The evidence is clear in this case. The joke of the constant moving door confirmed it.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 15, 2020, 02:05:16 PM
Yes they do, with a paedo in predator mode, on the hunt for a victim as a purposeful act. What's the chances of a paedo being on the prowl et voila, manna from heaven, whodathunkit, a helpless child right there.....
What is the chances of a fish taking the bait. The paedo might know that tourists were back at Ocean Club and a lot of them were leaving their kids locked in the rooms. There could be kids trying to find their parents at the Tapas Restaurant.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: The General on October 15, 2020, 02:10:45 PM
What is the chances of a fish taking the bait. The paedo might know that tourists were back at Ocean Club and a lot of them were leaving their kids locked in the rooms. There could be kids trying to find their parents at the Tapas Restaurant.
If it was August 4th I'd be inclined to acknowledge that. But this was tumbleweed time and the pickin's would be slim. Besides, it would be rarer still if this (in)opportune paedo subsequently snatched her and left no trace ever again.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 15, 2020, 02:24:26 PM
What is the chances of a fish taking the bait. The paedo might know that tourists were back at Ocean Club and a lot of them were leaving their kids locked in the rooms. There could be kids trying to find their parents at the Tapas Restaurant.
How would all these kids get out to go to the Tapas?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: barrier on October 15, 2020, 03:17:11 PM
If it was August 4th I'd be inclined to acknowledge that. But this was tumbleweed time and the pickin's would be slim. Besides, it would be rarer still if this (in)opportune paedo subsequently snatched her and left no trace ever again.
The suspect never did much to hide his previous crimes even we are led to believe in front of parent's.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Lace on October 15, 2020, 05:16:10 PM
IMO the window had to be open to back the alleged abduction theory, not really thought out well though. wi I don't believe it was but seems the only thing to do to demonstrate someone had been in 5a
Its the only available evidence that could say Maddie was abducted from her bed, doesn't mean to say it was actually opened by an intruder.
I don't believe the window was opened to cover up an abduction. Kate finds Madeleine dead and before even telling Gerry she decides to make it look as though she has been abducted. Firstly where did Kate put Madeleine's body? Secondly why leave your finger prints on the window. No it doesn't seem possible. If Gerry found Madeleine dead the same thing, where did he hide the body and how come Kate's finger prints on the window? Doing it before dinner, Gerry was playing tennis and didn't seem in the least bit bothered about hiding a body. Plus if the whooshing curtains were going to be used how would Kate know it was going to be windy that night?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: faithlilly on October 15, 2020, 05:35:20 PM
I don't believe the window was opened to cover up an abduction. Kate finds Madeleine dead and before even telling Gerry she decides to make it look as though she has been abducted. Firstly where did Kate put Madeleine's body? Secondly why leave your finger prints on the window. No it doesn't seem possible. If Gerry found Madeleine dead the same thing, where did he hide the body and how come Kate's finger prints on the window? Doing it before dinner, Gerry was playing tennis and didn't seem in the least bit bothered about hiding a body. Plus if the whooshing curtains were going to be used how would Kate know it was going to be windy that night?
It was a hasty, cobbled together story.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Eleanor on October 15, 2020, 05:41:51 PM
If it was August 4th I'd be inclined to acknowledge that. But this was tumbleweed time and the pickin's would be slim. Besides, it would be rarer still if this (in)opportune paedo subsequently snatched her and left no trace ever again.
Fewer tourists about make it easier to observe and target those that are there IMO.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 15, 2020, 05:47:12 PM
Amazingly effective though, seeing as how a) they’ve never even been charged and b) the body has never been found abd c) the police of two countries appear convinced by the abduction theory.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: barrier on October 15, 2020, 05:57:37 PM
Do you think all parents deadlocked their kids in their apartments?
You said 'locked in'. Not that there's any evidence that anyone other than the T9 were leaving kids home alone. After all, there were plenty of alternatives provided by Mark Warner.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 16, 2020, 07:55:11 AM
You said 'locked in'. Not that there's any evidence that anyone other than the T9 were leaving kids home alone. After all, there were plenty of alternatives provided by Mark Warner.
There were reports in the early days that others did...that's evidence
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 16, 2020, 07:58:18 AM
You said 'locked in'. Not that there's any evidence that anyone other than the T9 were leaving kids home alone. After all, there were plenty of alternatives provided by Mark Warner.
Yes I did say "locked in" but also thinking that there would be some parents who like the McCanns didn't actuallydeadlock the doors but just shut them enabling the kids to open them from within if that was required. Who becomes the prey for the predator.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 16, 2020, 08:03:31 AM
Yes I did say "locked in" but also thinking that there would be some parents who like the McCanns didn't actuallydeadlock the doors but just shut them enabling the kids to open them from within if that was required. Who becomes the prey for the predator.
Then they weren't locked in, were they?
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 16, 2020, 08:09:43 AM
You said 'locked in'. Not that there's any evidence that anyone other than the T9 were leaving kids home alone. After all, there were plenty of alternatives provided by Mark Warner.
Plenty of alternatives? Please list them.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 16, 2020, 08:19:15 AM
I question the morals of those who relentlessly criticise the McCanns online 13 years after her disappearance...perhaps I'm wrong and it isn't their morals I should question
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 16, 2020, 08:20:51 AM
But did I say all of the parents deadlocked the doors? Others would have just shut the door, as in the front door, which would require key from the outside but could be opened using the handle from the inside. I think you could still call these "locked in". It all depends on what you want to mean by "locked in".
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 16, 2020, 08:25:32 AM
I question the morals of those who relentlessly criticise the McCanns online 13 years after her disappearance...perhaps I'm wrong and it isn't their morals I should question
In fairness I do my criticising from behind a fictitious online persona, being careful never to direct my poisonous invective at them in person, for fear of physical and legal reprisals.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 16, 2020, 09:22:39 AM
In fairness I do my criticising from behind a fictitious online persona, being careful never to direct my poisonous invective at them in person, for fear of physical and legal reprisals.
My identity is known so I could occupy the moral high ground if it bothered me.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 16, 2020, 09:29:20 AM
Those sanctimonious do-gooders, having the audacity to pollute the party space with ankle biters.
Agreed. Nothing worse than parents inflicting their noisy unpleasant misbehaving children on the rest of us while we're trying to enjoy a nice quiet evening out. It's certainly very selfish!
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 16, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
Parents could also take their children with them, like the Carpenters or even stay in like the Wilkins.
Does Bridget say she stayed in? Jez is walking his child, we know that, (well at least we are told that there was a kid in the push chair, but did anyone confirm that?). But who knows what Bridget was doing prior to 9:30 PM.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Anthro on October 16, 2020, 08:15:17 PM
This is Mark’s latest tweet.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 16, 2020, 08:22:05 PM
Wolters hasn't convinced him that CB did it, I see. Not that I particularly agree with his views.
Have you read what he wrote. I don't think he knows a lot about the CB case. He says he doesn't think CB is involved because he normally keeps souvenirs of his acts... pictures ... swimsuit.
He doesn't seem to be aware that some think this is exactly what HCW has got.
Reading what HCW said in that DM article it seems charges are made just before the trial in Germany and that for good reason the evidence is not produced before the trial. This is to ensure witnesses recall evidence from their own experience and not influenced by what they have read in the press. He goes on th say that he thinks the McCanns would prefer a successful conclusion to the case rather than risking this by asking for evidence to be revealed. He really seems to know exactly what he is doing..
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: G-Unit on October 17, 2020, 08:47:06 AM
That would be really easy, with three sleeping kids to carry, wouldn't it? And uphill too.
OMG! Far too much of an effort to make to ensure the safety of their babies. Mark Warner should have provided the poor parents with child-carriers, perhaps.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Anthro on October 17, 2020, 10:13:14 AM
Have you read what he wrote. I don't think he knows a lot about the CB case. He says he doesn't think CB is involved because he normally keeps souvenirs of his acts... pictures ... swimsuit.
He doesn't seem to be aware that some think this is exactly what HCW has got.
Reading what HCW said in that DM article it seems charges are made just before the trial in Germany and that for good reason the evidence is not produced before the trial. This is to ensure witnesses recall evidence from their own experience and not influenced by what they have read in the press. He goes on th say that he thinks the McCanns would prefer a successful conclusion to the case rather than risking this by asking for evidence to be revealed. He really seems to know exactly what he is doing..
I agree, Davel. He is basing his opinion on the assumption that there is no ‘trophy’ re. Madeleine. Mr Wolters may well have such evidence. My opinion.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: kizzy on October 17, 2020, 10:50:11 AM
Have you read what he wrote. I don't think he knows a lot about the CB case. He says he doesn't think CB is involved because he normally keeps souvenirs of his acts... pictures ... swimsuit.
He doesn't seem to be aware that some think this is exactly what HCW has got.
Reading what HCW said in that DM article it seems charges are made just before the trial in Germany and that for good reason the evidence is not produced before the trial. This is to ensure witnesses recall evidence from their own experience and not influenced by what they have read in the press. He goes on th say that he thinks the McCanns would prefer a successful conclusion to the case rather than risking this by asking for evidence to be revealed. He really seems to know exactly what he is doing..
He really seems to know exactly what he is doing..
You hope ...seems the credibility if your posts rely on that IMO
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 17, 2020, 10:55:16 AM
Why oh why do you think I take notice of any explanation from you D
We need to wait and see
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: lane99 on October 17, 2020, 08:04:53 PM
Woke, wandered, and abducted certainly seems that a very plausible suggestion to me.
Hope the poor parents are able to discover the truth one day. Recently in Canada a nearly 40 year old heinous cold case crime against a young child was reportedly solved once and for all.
Title: Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
Post by: Erngath on October 17, 2020, 08:09:55 PM
Woke, wandered, and abducted certainly seems that a very plausible suggestion to me.
Hope the poor parents are able to discover the truth one day. Recently in Canada a nearly 40 year old heinous cold case crime against a young child was reportedly solved once and for all.