Author Topic: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.  (Read 262491 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #225 on: October 01, 2015, 07:51:20 PM »
For reasons already explained.

The shelved enquiry thoroughly investigated the McCanns and found not a shred of evidence against them.

The investigation looked at various possibilities;

the investigation equated the verification of several hypotheses: abduction, for the purpose of sexual exploration or others (i.e. posterior adoption, child traffic, organ traffic), without homicide; abduction, followed by homicide with (or without) concealment of a cadaver, hypotheses that were considered under the double sides of the abduction (if it existed) having occurred due to feelings of vengeance of the abductor(s) towards the parents (directed abduction) or simply taking advantage of the circumstance that the child was in a situation of actual vulnerability (opportunity abduction), accidental death, with posterior concealment of the cadaver and, underlying all of these possibilities, abandonment, substantiated as a crime under article 138 of the Penal Code. The possibility of theft, whose author would have been disturbed by the child Madeleine and who, in order to prevent her from disturbing him, neutralised her in a violent manner, and, afterwards, took her with him, dead or alive, in order to leave no trace that could eventually lead to his identification.

At the end of the investigation;

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

The investigation looked at all the above scenarios and in the end all of them were still possible.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
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ferryman

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Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #226 on: October 01, 2015, 08:13:23 PM »
The investigation looked at various possibilities;

the investigation equated the verification of several hypotheses: abduction, for the purpose of sexual exploration or others (i.e. posterior adoption, child traffic, organ traffic), without homicide; abduction, followed by homicide with (or without) concealment of a cadaver, hypotheses that were considered under the double sides of the abduction (if it existed) having occurred due to feelings of vengeance of the abductor(s) towards the parents (directed abduction) or simply taking advantage of the circumstance that the child was in a situation of actual vulnerability (opportunity abduction), accidental death, with posterior concealment of the cadaver and, underlying all of these possibilities, abandonment, substantiated as a crime under article 138 of the Penal Code. The possibility of theft, whose author would have been disturbed by the child Madeleine and who, in order to prevent her from disturbing him, neutralised her in a violent manner, and, afterwards, took her with him, dead or alive, in order to leave no trace that could eventually lead to his identification.

At the end of the investigation;

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

The investigation looked at all the above scenarios and in the end all of them were still possible.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

The quote placed in proper cotext:

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

It seems evident to us and because the files contain enough elements for such, that the crime of exposure or abandonment according to article 138 of the Penal Code can be eliminated from that range:

"1 - Whoever places another person's life in danger,
a) By exposing her in a location where she is subject to a situation from which she, on her own, cannot defend herself against; or
b) Abandoning her without defence, whenever the agent had the duty to guard her, to watch over her or to assist her;"

This legal type of crime is only fulfilled with intent, and this intent has to cover the creation of danger to the victim's life, as well as the absence of a capacity to defend herself, on the victim's behalf. In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent. The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.

The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.

Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them. Without any pretension or compensatory effect, we must also recognise that the parents already expiate a heavy penalty - the disappearance of Madeleine - due to their lack of caution in the surveillance and protection of their children.

Concerning the other indicated crimes, they are no more than that and despite our perception that, due to its high degree of probability, the occurrence of a homicide cannot be discarded, such cannot be more than a mere supposition, due to the lack of sustaining elements in the files.


Correct interpretation: none of the range of crimes was applicable to the McCanns: The range of crimes remained untouched

Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #227 on: October 01, 2015, 08:26:31 PM »
But Eddie didn't find any evidence
Precisely Dave, Eddie's alerts found no evidence in the flat therefore MWT's "woke and wandered then abducted" is possible.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #228 on: October 01, 2015, 08:36:59 PM »
Precisely Dave, Eddie's alerts found no evidence in the flat therefore MWT's "woke and wandered then abducted" is possible.
Absolutely

Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #229 on: October 01, 2015, 08:57:16 PM »
It does look from the two manhole covers at the start of this section that this was where this bit of road works started.  My memory dredges up an open man hole around the time, but as a media story rather than a statement, and located it at the north end of Rua Helena Nascimento Baptista.  That one would not be in a likely Madeleine path.

The actual state of the road works that night is both relevant and problematic.

The files show photos of works in Rua HNB and Direita, but not the states of other parts of these roads.

They do not do 'rolling' repairs here i.e. start at end A and as soon as the drains are laid restore section A to use whilst moving on to section B.  They started improvements in Rua do Cemiterio in early Jan 2015 at the east end, worked right along to the west end, had the entire street out of action for over 3 months (tough luck on those with drives onto the street) and restored the entire surface before the Luz triathlon of Apr 25.  And I suspect that deadline was met mainly because RdC was part of the triathlon route.

Google Earth shows Rua HNB had not been restored by June 2007.

I have seen a photo, I believe on this forum, of traffic going the 'wrong' way on Direita i.e. against the normal one-way system.  Like a fool, I don't seem to have noted where that was or bagged the photo.  If traffic was going the wrong way, then it would seem that temporary diversions were in place.  That would make sense, as traffic in significant chunks of Luz depends on Direita being at least part open.

Here's where the problematic bit kicks in.  I am surround by people who could shed light on this aspect, but attempting to discuss the case here invariably leads to a swift change of topic.  Nobody who was here at the time is interested, other than wishing the media would go somewhere else.
It is in a statement ShiningInLuz but the exact location isn't given. N end of Rua HNB was only one guess. Thankyou for GEarth info, you say Rua HNB had in June 2007 not been restored yet, do you mean the old surface was not dug up yet? Anyway productive discussion with you has made that location of much less interest (route was not known and is not always downhill), and has made the short east section of Rua JT more interesting (route was known and is always downhill).
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 09:06:16 PM by pegasus »

Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #230 on: October 01, 2015, 09:33:17 PM »
And she walks past the entrance to the tapas bar and play area and was taken by a predator.
Yes that is the theory of MWT, and of ex-Scotland Yard detective O'C.
That rules Smithman out as he was coming from the other direction so you know what I think of that theory. Not much  ?{)(**
Their theories wouldn't necessarily rule out smithman (see steps down to R Escola just north of sighting).

Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #231 on: October 01, 2015, 10:06:16 PM »
Absolutely
MWT fails to include the open window and shutter in his theory. Can you see that the simple addition of a petty burglar opening them from outside might fix his theory? (This had also recently happened at several nearby apartments). Obviously a petty burglar would flee empty handed as soon as he saw there were children inside. That  might possibly provide a compelling reason for a child to venture out the opposite end of the apartment. It would also mean there was absolutely no staging of the window and shutter by either parent - not even "naive staging".
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 10:13:16 PM by pegasus »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #232 on: October 01, 2015, 10:24:19 PM »
Yes that is the theory of MWT, and of ex-Scotland Yard detective O'C.Their theories wouldn't necessarily rule out smithman (see steps down to R Escola just north of sighting).

Peter would have noticed him coming out from the side steps. Shame the PJ missed the camera.

Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #233 on: October 01, 2015, 10:56:10 PM »
Peter would have noticed him coming out from the side steps... (snip)
A person going away from location of MWT theory or O'C theory, who had no knowledge of the streets (not knowing the streets is your idea) could go along R Alvernaz and not take the steps shortcut but continue to end join with R Escola and turn left there
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 10:59:13 PM by pegasus »

Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #234 on: October 01, 2015, 11:25:12 PM »
@Shining (you mentioned GEarth Jun 2007 of Rua HNB) it would be interesting to see same date of the most east section of Rua JT.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #235 on: October 02, 2015, 01:42:01 AM »
It is in a statement ShiningInLuz but the exact location isn't given. N end of Rua HNB was only one guess. Thankyou for GEarth info, you say Rua HNB had in June 2007 not been restored yet, do you mean the old surface was not dug up yet? Anyway productive discussion with you has made that location of much less interest (route was not known and is not always downhill), and has made the short east section of Rua JT more interesting (route was known and is always downhill).
I'd need to look it up, but certain sections of Luz were dug up towards the start of the work.  The guy who said he was employed in early April as a driver of a digger says Rua HNB was one dug up early on.  If they left Rua HNB dug up to June 2007, it affects things other than Madeleine wandering, notably a Brazilian wanting a child who appeared to mysteriously drive down the dug up Rua HNB on 3 May 2007, before setting sail from Lagos.
What's up, old man?

Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #236 on: October 02, 2015, 02:17:47 AM »
I'd need to look it up, but certain sections of Luz were dug up towards the start of the work.  The guy who said he was employed in early April as a driver of a digger says Rua HNB was one dug up early on.  If they left Rua HNB dug up to June 2007, it affects things other than Madeleine wandering, notably a Brazilian wanting a child who appeared to mysteriously drive down the dug up Rua HNB on 3 May 2007, before setting sail from Lagos.
Thanks ShiningInLuz. I am interested in the cobbling of the town centre because after removing the old surface, at some stage the manholes complete with their frames must be removed and then later replaced at the new level before the new cobbles are laid. The Morgan statement says he saw a manhole complete with its frame had been removed and placed at the side of the road, leaving a hole in the road where it had been.  This could only have been in the area where many streets were resurfaced with cobbles 2007 IMO, so it is interesting the location where the downhill and previously known route enters that area.
About the s.american person looking backwards in their car, IIRC after the old surface was removed, slow vehicle access was probably still allowed on the sand/gravel on some of the streets even though new cobbles not done yet, so driving to/from businesses still possible.
 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 02:25:52 AM by pegasus »

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #237 on: October 02, 2015, 06:06:33 PM »
...
About the s.american person looking backwards in their car, IIRC after the old surface was removed, slow vehicle access was probably still allowed on the sand/gravel on some of the streets even though new cobbles not done yet, so driving to/from businesses still possible.
Do you have any idea where you got that from?  If correct, it advances my understanding of the scene, hence my interest in the source.
What's up, old man?

Offline Brietta

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #238 on: October 02, 2015, 07:40:56 PM »
Do you have any idea where you got that from?  If correct, it advances my understanding of the scene, hence my interest in the source.


04-Processos Volume  IV Pages 854-855
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EXTERNAL.htm
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #239 on: October 02, 2015, 07:59:23 PM »
A person going away from location of MWT theory or O'C theory, who had no knowledge of the streets (not knowing the streets is your idea) could go along R Alvernaz and not take the steps shortcut but continue to end join with R Escola and turn left there

I have my theory and he came from 5A so he went around the wasteland and past that camera to the sighting.

Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.