Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.

[pegasus]

Ok thanks
The  impression I got was that were a huge amount of roadworks going on at the time...so it's hard to believe just two small trenches were checked and no manholes just opened, whether they had been opened and reshut nor not,  seeing as how thorough the police were in the initial searches and investigations and the fact they were looking for a wandered child

IIRC the cadaver dog was taken along the whle route of those roadworks? Albeit a few months later (at least according to a newspaper - no compared this to the routes given in the police files)

Phase 1 of the resurfacing of part of the town centre was happening (remove old surface then lay new cobble-type surface). The two open trenches were just north of that area - those 2 trenches were checked next morning because they had been open through the night. If already before next morning the manhole cover and its frame (wherever it was) had already been put back in place to cover the open hole which witness RM had seen, there would be no reason for anyone to think of lifting it to look. There is no record in the files of anyone checking any manhole that night.
IMO it is possible that someone during the early searches that night put the cover and frame back on?

[pegasus]

(snip)... 4 yr olds are not always so unaware they wouldn't spot one, and avoid it ...(snip)

I trust the observation of the man who actually saw the open uncovered manhole:

"The road is lit by street lighting but I believe you would not have seen the hole and anyone could have fallen in"

[mercury]

I trust the observation of the man who actually saw the open uncovered manhole:

"The road is lit by street lighting but I believe you would not have seen the hole and anyone could have fallen in"

Then why didn't the dogs stop there?
The theory also suggests if she fell down one she wouldn't have shouted for help and with so many people around if she did why wouldn't she have been heard either

Which also begs the question if there was an open manhole right outside the tapas restaraunt wouldn't more people have mentioned it? Than just one?

[pegasus]

Then why didn't the dogs stop there?
The theory also suggests if she fell down one she wouldn't have shouted for help and with so many people around if she did why wouldn't she have been heard either

Which also begs the question if there was an open manhole right outside the tapas restaraunt wouldn't more people have mentioned it? Than just one?

I don't know where the open manhole was Mercury - but there was one somewhere - because one witness described it. Why no other witness states seeing it I don't know. Possibly someone put the cover and frame back onto the hole just after that witness saw it?

[mercury]

I don't know where the open manhole was Mercury - but there was one somewhere - because one witness described it. Why no other witness states seeing it I don't know. Possibly someone put the cover and frame back onto the hole just after that witness saw it?

Yea, Rex Morgan mentions it but doesn't give a date when he saw it or where,  and as I said before re the scent dogs would have found Madeleine to there

the question often reverts to how is it possible that all these police forces and other agencies and all the millions and efforts  can find NOTHING...then again maybe they have but we don't know that they have after all it's all secret now, like properly, no Ms Wall leaks or comments ever

[misty]

Yea, Rex Morgan mentions it but doesn't give a date when he saw it or where,  and as I said before re the scent dogs would have found Madeleine to there

the question often reverts to how is it possible that all these police forces and other agencies and all the millions and efforts  can find NOTHING...then again maybe they have but we don't know that they have after all it's all secret now, like properly, no Ms Wall leaks or comments ever

I think the current investigation is having to look beyond the possibility of a few people, strangers to PdL, managing to pull off the crime of the century, with no apparent access to a vehicle & little more than a plastic bucket, spade & bin-liner to conceal a cadaver.

[mercury]

I think the current investigation is having to look beyond the possibility of a few people, strangers to PdL, managing to pull off the crime of the century, with no apparent access to a vehicle & little more than a plastic bucket, spade & bin-liner to conceal a cadaver.

Keep your hair on and don't have a go at me lol

Would you self combust if SY/Met/MPs even suggtested the parents were culpable...how sad is that!

[pegasus]

Yea, Rex Morgan mentions it but doesn't give a date when he saw it or where,  and as I said before re the scent dogs would have found Madeleine to there

the question often reverts to how is it possible that all these police forces and other agencies and all the millions and efforts  can find NOTHING...then again maybe they have but we don't know that they have after all it's all secret now, like properly, no Ms Wall leaks or comments ever

RM states he saw the manhole with cover and frame removed, and then the next day he saw it with cover and frame replaced, and fears the child might have fallen down it - so it's fairly obvious in that context IMO, he saw it open on 3rd and then covered on 4th.
 

[pegasus]

I think the current investigation is having to look beyond the possibility of a few people, strangers to PdL, managing to pull off the crime of the century, with no apparent access to a vehicle & little more than a plastic bucket, spade & bin-liner to conceal a cadaver.

The two plastic buckets and spades were still outside the front door in PJ photo early hours 4th, they were removed morning 5th same time as the 2 large bags

[Eleanor]

The two plastic buckets and spades were still outside the front door in PJ photo early hours 4th, they were removed morning 5th same time as the 2 large bags

Wot?  The McCanns never hid them?  That was an oversight.

PS.  We are going to have to stop meeting like this, in the middle of the night.  But it's nice to talk to someone who is never unpleasant.

[pegasus]

Wot?  The McCanns never hid them?  That was an oversight.

PS.  We are going to have to stop meeting like this, in the middle of the night.  But it's nice to talk to someone who is never unpleasant.

The buckets and spades were outside the front door that night and were removed on the 5th, they were of no importance but in retrospect it's surprising the apartment contents were allowed to be removed too

[Eleanor]

The buckets and spades were outside the front door that night and were removed on the 5th, they were of no importance but in retrospect it's surprising the apartment contents were allowed to be removed too

There is a lot about the whole business that is surprising, including the suggestion that Gerry dug a grave on the beach with a plastic spade.  Or have we moved on from there?

However, still no reasonable proof that Madeleine woke and wandered.

[pegasus]

There is a lot about the whole business that is surprising, including the suggestion that Gerry dug a grave on the beach with a plastic spade.  Or have we moved on from there?

However, still no reasonable proof that Madeleine woke and wandered.

The plastic buckets/spades are completely irrelevant (except they just help to confirm a photo).
IMO it was definitely woke and wandered out of that room, but I agree possibly not wandered out of the apartment.

[Eleanor]

The plastic buckets/spades are completely irrelevant (except they just help to confirm a photo).
IMO it was definitely woke and wandered out of that room, but I agree possibly not wandered out of the apartment.

Is your opinion to do with moving doors?

I think that the abductor was in the children's bedroom when Gerry checked at 9pm and had left to door farther open when he first entered, and then again when he left.  Whether or not he passed Madeleine through the window or took her out through the front door doesn't really matter.

Do you think he chased Madeleine through to another room before abducting her?

[stephen25000]

Is your opinion to do with moving doors?

I think that the abductor was in the children's bedroom when Gerry checked at 9pm and had left to door farther open when he first entered, and then again when he left.  Whether or not he passed Madeleine through the window or took her out through the front door doesn't really matter.

Do you think he chased Madeleine through to another room before abducting her?

and yet not one iota of evidence of an abductor or abductors ever entered/left the apartment.