Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.

[G-Unit]

Without an extraordinary reason a child would not leave the apartment at night in the dark.

And here it is. Someone opening a child's bedroom shutter and window from outside at night provides that strong extraordinary reason, for a child to go out the sliding door at the opposite end of the apartment from the perceived danger, and run to find safety.

I think that would depend on the child. This child had already asked 'why didn't you come'...She was said to be confident. I can think of such a child waking if her sibling(s) cried and going to look for the parents. Finding an empty apartment she looks out of the patio doors, notices they are unlocked and exits onto the balcony. From there she could have been able to hear her father's voice (he admits he's loud). It would be quite normal for a child to do this if the parents were dining in the 'garden', so why not?

[Brietta]

I'm talking about a woke & wandered scenario in which a living child, who would leave no cadaver odour in 5a, possibly left via the front of the apartment & disappeared.

Mark Williams-Thomas linked the disappearances of Madeleine from Luz and Joana from Figuera because of their proximity in a small country (seven miles) ~ the short time between (four years).

[mercury]

You have made an allegation stating "the witness statements" in support of your interpretation of events ... I wrongly assumed you would therefore have a cite to back that up.  It appears you cannot.

Quoting witnesses' police statements can never be "an allegation" or "personal interpretation" ... and so your assumption was, I agree, wrong....unless you can point me to any post of mine sayng "x y z made a statement about x y z" where it was not backed up (ps dont waste your time searching, it does not exist, ergo further raises the question why you would assume such in the first place!)


Kate statement 6 september 07
They left by the veranda door, which they left closed but not locked. Main door was closed but not locked. She thinks it could be opened from the inside but not from the outside.


Gerry statement 10 may 07
Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door.

So, just to recap your original post was , as I originally said, false:-



The front door was locked.
The shutter was down.
They thought the front of the apartment was secure.

[Brietta]

Quoting witnesses' police statements can never be "an allegation" or "personal interpretation" ... and so your assumption was, I agree, wrong....unless you can point me to any post of mine sayng "x y z made a statement about x y z" where it was not backed up (ps dont waste your time searching, it does not exist, ergo further raises the question why you would assume such in the first place!)


Kate statement 6 september 07
They left by the veranda door, which they left closed but not locked. Main door was closed but not locked. She thinks it could be opened from the inside but not from the outside.


Gerry statement 10 may 07
Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door.

Sigh ... a door which cannot be opened from the outside without the use of a key is by definition ... locked.

[mercury]

Sigh ... a door which cannot be opened from the outside without the use of a key is by definition ... locked.

Nice swerve....trust me, you do not want the gold medal here for losing the argument but still not conceding...it is not a very good place to be....

[Mr Gray]

Nice swerve....

It's absolutely true... As I pointed out

[Brietta]

Nice swerve....trust me, you do not want the gold medal here for losing the argument but still not conceding...it is not a very good place to be....

There is no argument.  If the door cannot be opened without the use of a key ... it is locked.

[mercury]

There is no argument.  If the door cannot be opened without the use of a key ... it is locked.

Yes there is
You dont need a key to open an unlocked door from the inside...please remind yourself of the title of this thread!

[pegasus]

MWT theory has 3 parts
1. Woke. IMO yes.
2. Wandered. IMO yes certainly to another room at least. But MWT theory says wandered onto the street - IMO it's certainly possible but don't know if it happened or not.
3. Adducted (after wandering to the street). IMO extremely unlikely. If wandered onto street there must be some other explanation for then disappearing from street.

[pathfinder73]

If you believe that then did she wander into JW's pram. He was walking around that area from 8:30 to 9:20 and didn't see her. Nobody did so the chances that she wandered into an evil SOB is not likely at all.

[Brietta]

Yes there is
You dont need a key to open an unlocked door from the inside...please remind yourself of the title of this thread!

The objective of having a lock on a door is to deny non-keyholders or intruders entry to the interior. Therefore, the shutter being down and the front door closed and requiring a key to open it ... the Drs McCann thought the front of the apartment secure from petty thieves.
They did not know about the assaults which had been perpetrated on British children in their beds, so that did not enter their thinking.
It did not occur to them that an abductor might be on the loose, so didn't give that a moment's thought either.

It is unlikely however that Madeleine would have been able to effect an exit through the door without leaving a forensic trace on the door or on the wall. 
Do we know if the door was dusted for fingerprints?

Mark Williams-Thomas considered the woke and wandered theory; he also considered the comparisons of the disappearance of another little girl which he was able to do without prejudice.
Which was something the team leaders of the original investigation were prevented from considering.  To do so would have questioned the conviction of Leonor Cipriano for her missing daughter's murder.
Many of the investigating officers in Joana's case were also investigating Madeleine's.

Therefore it is wrong to say all avenues were open to investigation from the start if investigation of the connection between both cases was not considered particularly as an experienced professional like MWT thought it relevant to do so. 

The team responsible for 'solving' Joana's case could scarcely afford to link her's to Madeleine's disappearance even if only for elimination purposes without prejudice to what had gone before.

[pathfinder73]

The objective of having a lock on a door is to deny non-keyholders or intruders entry to the interior. Therefore, the shutter being down and the front door closed and requiring a key to open it ... the Drs McCann thought the front of the apartment secure from petty thieves.
They did not know about the assaults which had been perpetrated on British children in their beds, so that did not enter their thinking.
It did not occur to them that an abductor might be on the loose, so didn't give that a moment's thought either.

It is unlikely however that Madeleine would have been able to effect an exit through the door without leaving a forensic trace on the door or on the wall. 
Do we know if the door was dusted for fingerprints?

Mark Williams-Thomas considered the woke and wandered theory; he also considered the comparisons of the disappearance of another little girl which he was able to do without prejudice.
Which was something the team leaders of the original investigation were prevented from considering.  To do so would have questioned the conviction of Leonor Cipriano for her missing daughter's murder.
Many of the investigating officers in Joana's case were also investigating Madeleine's.

Therefore it is wrong to say all avenues were open to investigation from the start if investigation of the connection between both cases was not considered particularly as an experienced professional like MWT thought it relevant to do so. 

The team responsible for 'solving' Joana's case could scarcely afford to link her's to Madeleine's disappearance even if only for elimination purposes without prejudice to what had gone before.

How did they know it was secure if they didn't even check if the childrens bedroom window was locked? That's what THEY said. They move the kids into a room and leave them alone at night but  don't check if the window is locked. People will believe any old shite.

[Brietta]

How did they know it was secure if they didn't even check if the childrens bedroom window was locked? That's what THEY said. They move the kids into a room and leave them alone at night but  don't check if the window is locked. People will believe any old shite.

The opening mechanism was on the inside.
In Britain such shutters are security shutters to prevent broken windows and theft from stores etc.  They thought that when down it could could not be raised from the outside.

In that belief it is possible that on a warm night parents might not only have failed to check the window was locked, but might actually have opened it for air, while they sat on the patio enjoying the night.

[pathfinder73]

The opening mechanism was on the inside.
In Britain such shutters are security shutters to prevent broken windows and theft from stores etc.  They thought that when down it could could not be raised from the outside.

In that belief it is possible that on a warm night parents might not only have failed to check the window was locked, but might actually have opened it for air, while they sat on the patio enjoying the night.

The kids room was not on the patio side. There was no need to unlock the window before moving the kids in for the week. They left a few slats open for light but not to check the window at that time is not believable.

"Regarding Madeleine's window he says that he made sure the blinds worked so as to darken the room for the children. On the day of arrival, he does not know if the blinds in Madeleine's room were open or closed. He did not open them again, and does not know if somebody else did."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

"Regarding the windows, he says they were normally closed, he does not know if they were locked."

[Brietta]

The kids room was not on the patio side. There was no need to unlock the window before moving the kids in for the week. They left a few slats open for light but not to check the window at that time is not believable.

"Regarding Madeleine's window he says that he made sure the blinds worked so as to darken the room for the children. On the day of arrival, he does not know if the blinds in Madeleine's room were open or closed. He did not open them again, and does not know if somebody else did."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

"Regarding the windows, he says they were normally closed, he does not know if they were locked."

Quite ... and as I have said, people unfamiliar with the shutters would assume they were 'security' shutters which when down would mean the premises were secure.

Whereas those with a familiarity would know that the shutters were useless for security purposes unless the interior window was locked.

I refer you to Shining's post
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1620.msg294844#msg294844