Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.

[pegasus]

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/toddler-3-discovered-by-police-wandering-streets-of-salzburg-on-christmas-eve-34314414.html

[Brietta]

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/toddler-3-discovered-by-police-wandering-streets-of-salzburg-on-christmas-eve-34314414.html

Thankfully the little one was recovered safe and well.

If it had not been so ... and she had vanished without trace ... what would have been the situation for the last persons to see her safely tucked up in bed?

Wonder how she got out of the hotel without being spotted.

[mercury]

Thankfully the little one was recovered safe and well.

If it had not been so ... and she had vanished without trace ... what would have been the situation for the last persons to see her safely tucked up in bed?

Wonder how she got out of the hotel without being spotted.

Unless they deliberately left their doors open, as the Mccanns did, thereby enabling their toddlers to get out of safety, and half expecting Madeleine to "go find them" if she woke up,  they would have no case to answer...vis a vis negligence.....they would still be investigated and interrogated though as the last people to see their child and probably suspected if there was no evidence of an intrusion/abduction...if they changed their statements, their friends change statements or have them changed, specifically go aganst police advice, and bring in media, lawyers and others, that would add to police suspicion, etc etc

There is no comparison between the two cases

@Pegasus, that story also pours doubt on the doubt that Madeleine wandered because her shoes were still in the flat

[pegasus]

Unless they deliberately left their doors open, as the Mccanns did, thereby enabling their toddlers to get out of safety, and half expecting Madeleine to "go find them" if she woke up,  they would have no case to answer...vis a vis negligence.....they would still be investigated and interrogated though as the last people to see their child and probably suspected if there was no evidence of an intrusion/abduction...if they changed their statements, their friends change statements or have them changed, specifically go aganst police advice, and bring in media, lawyers and others, that would add to police suspicion, etc etc

There is no comparison between the two cases

@Pegasus, that story also pours doubt on the doubt that Madeleine wandered because her shoes were still in the flat

In the Salzberg case the child went outside without shoes.
"wearing only a nightshirt and socks"

[pegasus]

The 3-year-old got out of her hotel room on Rainer Street, went outside walking in the street, and at about midnight was reported to police to be outside a different hotel, on Markus Sitticus Street. She was wearing diaper, nightdress and socks (no shoes).

[Brietta]

Salzberg

Making the comparison between the two cases raises the question of why a child who woke and wandered in the city of Salzberg was safely returned to her family and a child who may have woken and wandered vanished without trace in the sleepy, child friendly holiday village of Luz?

[pathfinder73]

A child didn't wake and wander in PDL. She was seen in a deep sleep. Those streets Pegasus posted are very close to each other - only around 100 metres.

[ferryman]

A child didn't wake and wander in PDL. She was seen in a deep sleep. Those streets Pegasus posted are very close to each other - only around 100 metres.

You know that how?

Were you there?

[mercury]

In the Salzberg case the child went outside without shoes.
"wearing only a nightshirt and socks"

But they went out without shoes. Are you saying that any child waking and wandering would never do so in bare feet? I mentioned it initially because many people have said it is unlikely Madeleine woke and wondered because her shoes/sandals were all in the house. Very young children do either.

Salzberg

Making the comparison between the two cases raises the question of why a child who woke and wandered in the city of Salzberg was safely returned to her family and a child who may have woken and wandered vanished without trace in the sleepy, child friendly holiday village of Luz?

There can only be a few options:

- Child was abducted whilst wandering - malicious
- Child was run over accidentally and hidden - not malicious
- Child met misfortune somewhere near or further away with no third party involvement and body never found

Feel free to add possiblities

Not sure of the base of MWTs "theory" - I expect the unlocked apartment - but still, only  a remote possibility, and very unlikely though imo due to the place being busy and someone seeing a child on their own would have done somethng about it....neither do I subscribe to the pedo on every corner in Praia da Luz as promulgated by some rabid sections of the mccann supporting British media

[pegasus]

@Mercury. MWT's theory is
"I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment.
She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar.
It was at this point that she was most likely abducted by an opportunistic predatory paedophile."
Source: http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl

IMO all good except the last line is rubbish. Because if someone saw a small child wandering in the dark they would ensure the child was safe and report to police. Therefore to make MWT theory non-rubbish we need to replace the rubbish last line IMO with "completely disappeared from the face of the earth very soon after leaving the apartment (before being seen by anyone)". I've already posted the remarkable witness statement which might provide a way this could happen.

[Brietta]

@Mercury. MWT's theory is
"I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment.
She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar.
It was at this point that she was most likely abducted by an opportunistic predatory paedophile."
Source: http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl

IMO all good except the last line is rubbish. Because if someone saw a small child wandering in the dark they would ensure the child was safe and report to police. Therefore to make MWT theory non-rubbish we need to replace the rubbish last line IMO with "completely disappeared from the face of the earth very soon after leaving the apartment (before being seen by anyone)". I've already posted the remarkable witness statement which might provide a way this could happen.

… after several days of searching.
If several days of searching have not produced results, dog teams may be used to eliminate large search areas outside of the original search parameters, or to methodically recheck areas of high probability previously searched by human search teams, particularly if search conditions were less-than-ideal or if it is suspected the subject was moving. Search dogs can detect scent up for several days after the subject went missing, even if the person is deceased.

Scent articles may be useful but are not required
Air scenting dogs do not generally require a scent article to search effectively, but in some cases it can assist the dog to discriminate between the subject’s scent and others in the search area, and perhaps pick up the subject’s trail if crossed (10) .
http://www.vsrda.org/about-vsrda/using-air-scent-dogs


I found the above link informative, particularly where it was mentioned that one search dog is the equivalent of fifty searchers.

That the GNR dogs followed a trail as far as the car park opposite the tapas restaurant before losing it is something I find intriguing and it certainly ties in with Mark Williams-Thomas's theory.
There is an account (on this thread I believe) of them inspecting road works, but no other accounts of them following a definite trail as they appeared to do between the apartment front door, not the patio entrance, and losing it in the car park.

Isabel Duarte the McCann lawyer was dismayed when she discovered that nothing had been followed through on the information provided by these dogs.

Madeleine McCann: The lost clues

CRUCIAL leads that could solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance are revealed today by the Sunday Express.

By JAMES MURRAY
PUBLISHED: 00:00, Sun, Apr 29, 2012

These vital clues were never followed up by the ­Portuguese police, according to Isabel Duarte, the ­Lisbon lawyer acting for Madeleine’s parents, Kate and Gerry McCann.

Shortly after Madeleine was taken from Apartment 5A at the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz, five years ago this Thursday, a sniffer dog picked up her scent at a nearby car park.

Mrs Duarte said: “This was a significant moment at a critical time, yet there is very ­little about it in the police files. There doesn’t appear to have been any forensic work at the spot in the car park identified by the dog. More work should have been done.”
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/317111/Madeleine-McCann-The-lost-clues

[G-Unit]

… after several days of searching.
If several days of searching have not produced results, dog teams may be used to eliminate large search areas outside of the original search parameters, or to methodically recheck areas of high probability previously searched by human search teams, particularly if search conditions were less-than-ideal or if it is suspected the subject was moving. Search dogs can detect scent up for several days after the subject went missing, even if the person is deceased.

Scent articles may be useful but are not required
Air scenting dogs do not generally require a scent article to search effectively, but in some cases it can assist the dog to discriminate between the subject’s scent and others in the search area, and perhaps pick up the subject’s trail if crossed (10) .
http://www.vsrda.org/about-vsrda/using-air-scent-dogs


I found the above link informative, particularly where it was mentioned that one search dog is the equivalent of fifty searchers.

That the GNR dogs followed a trail as far as the car park opposite the tapas restaurant before losing it is something I find intriguing and it certainly ties in with Mark Williams-Thomas's theory.
There is an account (on this thread I believe) of them inspecting road works, but no other accounts of them following a definite trail as they appeared to do between the apartment front door, not the patio entrance, and losing it in the car park.

Isabel Duarte the McCann lawyer was dismayed when she discovered that nothing had been followed through on the information provided by these dogs.

Was she?

[faithlilly]

Was she?

I was just about to ask the same question. Perhaps Brietta has a cite ?

[misty]

I was just about to ask the same question. Perhaps Brietta has a cite ?

Is asking for a cite proving someone's dismay really more relevant to you & G-Unit than the absence of a forensic report on the car park in Block 6?

[Brietta]

Is asking for a cite proving someone's dismay really more relevant to you & G-Unit than the absence of a forensic report on the car park in Block 6?

There was definitely a case for trying to pin down which vehicles were parked there by questioning witnesses living in the apartments around and those pedestrians passing and passing through in the run up to Madeleine's disappearance being discovered.

Members of staff parking there may have noticed a vehicle parked in the spot at the lamp post near where the trail was lost.

I think Mr and Mrs Moyes may have passed the car park on their route home? they certainly would have had sight from their balcony.

Why no public appeal for information?  the secrecy law would not have applied if a waiver had been asked for.