Author Topic: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.  (Read 262491 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #840 on: January 15, 2016, 06:52:00 PM »
I thought we were supposed to provide references to base our allegations on? I found something where he refers to air-scenting dogs, and he's right. The searches he is describing were carried out using the search and rescue dogs. He isn't describing the searches carried out by Fernandes and his tracking dogs though. I await your cite showing where he mentions those searches.

The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

it seem the current instruction from the mods is you must look it up yourself

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #841 on: January 15, 2016, 06:58:08 PM »
I thought we were supposed to provide references to base our allegations on? I found something where he refers to air-scenting dogs, and he's right. The searches he is describing were carried out using the search and rescue dogs. He isn't describing the searches carried out by Fernandes and his tracking dogs though. I await your cite showing where he mentions those searches.

The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

Quote
At about 23.00 accompanied by a PJ inspector, the searches were begun. After Rex was given the girl's clothing to sniff, he began to search on the ground floor of block 5 and when he passed the door of apartment 5 A (the place the girl had disappeared from) according to his handler, officer Fernandes, the dog altered its behaviour, sniffing with greater intensity than he had done before. Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time. Afterwards, the same kind of search was carried out using the dog Zarus which in general terms showed the same behaviour in the same places as Rex had done.

It was only when all the searches of the apartments in blocks 4 and 5 were complete, that the behaviour described above was registered. It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in, but given that these types of dogs manage to discriminate a specific odour from others, although it could be a remote possibility that they related the odour of the missing girl with a possible location where she could have been.

Summary: these are dogs capable of being trained in tracking.  They were not trained in tracking.  They were pressed into service as tracker dogs.

They experimented.

Their only other option was to give up.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 07:03:29 PM by ferryman »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #842 on: January 15, 2016, 07:15:09 PM »
Rex and Zarus can track individual target scent and within the first 24 hours is best. They are used to searching in open areas not residential.

Fernandes – Dog: Rex/ Zarus 4 May 2007

At about 23h00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team).
 
After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine.
 
Beginning to follow the track using Rex, from the door of apartment 5 A (the place where the girl had been sleeping) he would always head in the direction of Block 4, leaving block 5 the dog would turn to the left, pass by a metal access door to a path existing between the apartments blocks to the leisure area (restaurant, pool and playground). Immediately another attempt at reconstruction was made using the dog Zarus, who, in general terms, ended up following the same route as Rex and having the same behaviour.

It is important to state that this tracking work was carried out in an urban area and more than 24 hours after the girl's disappearance and numerous persons had passed along the path the dogs were tracking. It should also be stated that the path the dogs followed within the resort was practically totally surrounded by walls and the concentration of odours was stronger as they were protected from the wind. The searches finished at about 01h30.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 07:18:55 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #843 on: January 15, 2016, 07:24:49 PM »
The UK media. I always assumed it was from the files somewhere. It shows the dogs as entering the car park, but the officer's statement doesn't actually say that. Here is a shot showing the two lampposts;

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Luz+Ocean+Club/@37.0884519,-8.7306687,3a,75y,40.1h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9N1CA4jZtusxNQGhMJoLAQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D9N1CA4jZtusxNQGhMJoLAQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D33.88921%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0xd1b313da147a849:0x563016c8decffc18!6m1!1e1

Well spotted.

I don't think it changes things dramatically though.
I also don't think it changes which car park it was where the dogs lost interest.

I think that could have been quite dramatic had it been the parking area of Block 6.  Jane Tanner did not watch to see where the man she saw was going simply because she didn't think it suspicious at the time.  So his destination could have been to his parked vehicle.

The newspaper graphic is lazy (although not as inaccurate as the first one printed) ... just showing the route cutting straight across the road from the lane then to the car park.  It is clearly stated in the files that one of the dogs cut back across the road to the tapas door before returning to the area of the car park where he lost interest.

The graphic doesn't touch on that.  Just as it doesn't show the turn to the left as far as the lamppost prior to turning right and heading back down the road.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #844 on: January 15, 2016, 07:27:16 PM »
it seem the current instruction from the mods is you must look it up yourself

The last couple of requests I have made for cites have been ignored.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #845 on: January 15, 2016, 07:40:07 PM »
Summary: these are dogs capable of being trained in tracking.  They were not trained in tracking.  They were pressed into service as tracker dogs.

They experimented.

Their only other option was to give up.

Still nothing from Mark Harrison then? The same report you have quoted also says;

On 10th May at about 20.10, upon the request of the PJ, searches were carried out in all of the apartments belonging to blocks 4 and 5 of the OC, two tracker dogs and two search and rescue dogs being used for this operation
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

Search and Rescue dogs come in two kinds; air scenting and tracking. More here;

http://animals.howstuffworks.com/animal-facts/sar-dog2.htm
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ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #846 on: January 15, 2016, 07:40:27 PM »
Pathfinder:

Rex and Zarus can track individual target scent and within the first 24 hours is best. They are used to searching in open areas not residential.

Where did you get that from, please?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #847 on: January 15, 2016, 07:43:21 PM »
Still nothing from Mark Harrison then? The same report you have quoted also says;

On 10th May at about 20.10, upon the request of the PJ, searches were carried out in all of the apartments belonging to blocks 4 and 5 of the OC, two tracker dogs and two search and rescue dogs being used for this operation
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

Search and Rescue dogs come in two kinds; air scenting and tracking. More here;

http://animals.howstuffworks.com/animal-facts/sar-dog2.htm

Cite given.

Mark Harrion said the GNR handlers deployed air-scenting dogs (the type that track the generic scent).

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #848 on: January 15, 2016, 07:44:49 PM »
The last couple of requests I have made for cites have been ignored.

me too

Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #849 on: January 15, 2016, 07:53:58 PM »
Cite given.

Mark Harrion said the GNR handlers deployed air-scenting dogs (the type that track the generic scent).

Please could you give it again? I can't find it.  8(8-))
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
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Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
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ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #850 on: January 15, 2016, 07:57:28 PM »
Please could you give it again? I can't find it.  8(8-))

Quote
The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs.

(Mark Harrison)

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #851 on: January 15, 2016, 08:01:05 PM »
Pathfinder:

Rex and Zarus can track individual target scent and within the first 24 hours is best. They are used to searching in open areas not residential.

Where did you get that from, please?

"It is important to state that this tracking work was carried out in an urban area and more than 24 hours after the girl's disappearance."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id258.html

 I would like to clarify that a search in a bad area, where a more intense odour perceived by the sniffer dog, such as in an urban area due to the large concentration of external odours, make it possible to confuse the dog. In this situation, search activity is very difficult as is the case when some time has passed since the event in question.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm

He comes to the process in the role of Chief of the GNR Search and Rescue Team.

Search and rescue dogs usually work in tracking lost people in the wilderness (open areas) not in a residential area. That is self-explanatory.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 08:03:37 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #852 on: January 15, 2016, 08:06:41 PM »
So you paraphrased what was actually written in your own words ....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #853 on: January 15, 2016, 08:19:03 PM »
So you paraphrased what was actually written in your own words ....

Yes my own words but they are right. Rex and Zarus can track individual scent and that's why they were given Madeleine's blanket.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #854 on: January 15, 2016, 08:20:07 PM »
Yes my own words but they are right. Rex and Zarus can track individual scent and that's why they were given Madeleine's blanket.

No they can't.

Read (again) what their handlers said.