Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.

[ferryman]

Which was exactly the right thing to do with them in the absence of any other leads, although from what I have read I think the presence of a lot of people might have been a distraction as far as confusing their noses went.

I think the searches the teams carried out in the environs of Luz would have discovered Madeleine had she been hastily hidden from view.

One of the few interesting points I learnt from Heidie Ho's otherwise ghastly videos is that dogs have an ability, much more advanced than humans, to differentiate and distinguish between a variety of conflicting scents, and to focus on a particular and narrow scent that they have been primed to detect.

[Miss Taken Identity]

Which was exactly the right thing to do with them in the absence of any other leads, although from what I have read I think the presence of a lot of people might have been a distraction as far as confusing their noses went.

I think the searches the teams carried out in the environs of Luz would have discovered Madeleine had she been hastily hidden from view.

All the way to Malta, Spain, Australia and the middle east where sighting were not taken seriosly by PJ OR co ordinator Amaral? If Maddie stayed a while out of view in Luz, she must have been moved around?

[Brietta]

All the way to Malta, Spain, Australia and the middle east where sighting were not taken seriosly by PJ OR co ordinator Amaral? If Maddie stayed a while out of view in Luz, she must have been moved around?

Why were the PJ or the co-ordinator Amaral ... who can probably be considered the same entity as far as your post is concerned ... so absolutely and utterly convinced that Madeleine McCann was dead?

[Miss Taken Identity]

Why were the PJ or the co-ordinator Amaral ... who can probably be considered the same entity as far as your post is concerned ... so absolutely and utterly convinced that Madeleine McCann was dead?

Reply to red font,

Probably because she did not turn up alive after a search? when she was reported 'missing' not abducted. And then the wild goose chase, and abuse of PJ, and interferance from UK Government, UK press oh and ever changing time lines, and parents strange behaviour... but then again...dare I mention the d.gs? argh sorry.

[sadie]

Why were the PJ or the co-ordinator Amaral ... who can probably be considered the same entity as far as your post is concerned ... so absolutely and utterly convinced that Madeleine McCann was dead?

Reply to red font,

Probably because she did not turn up alive after a search? when she was reported 'missing' not abducted.

So that made Amaral absolutely and utterly convinced that Madeleine was dead?  Cor blimey!   Were they supposed to do the PJ's job for them and insist , at that stage in the bewilderment of the moment, that Madeleine was abducted?

Immediately they arrived, the police were told about Tannerman carrying a little girl at the pertinent time.  Suppose that that fact didn't sink in?   Didn't ring any bells in the PJ or Amarals brain? 

Hey!  Great detective work. 

And then the wild goose chase, and abuse of PJ, and interferance from UK Government, UK press oh and ever changing time lines, and parents strange behaviour

The wild goose chase?
Abuse of the PJ?   The Mccanns were being regularly abused ... swingers etc.  Info, and false at that, was being leaked to the media in PT and the PT media was dissipating it.   

It was rumoured at the time that our friend Paulo Christavao, (Amarals mate) was working for the one "red top" and dishing it out.  Please correct me if this rumour was incorrrect.

... but then again...dare I mention the d.gs? argh sorry.

You would be a fool if you did. 
If they have been following this forum, anyone with half a brain cell now knows that the dogs along with forensics showed nothing, nowt, nada, zilch.

Soz, Mistaken, but you're mistaken again

[Brietta]

So that made Amaral absolutely and utterly convinced that Madeleine was dead?  Cor blimey!   Were they supposed to do the PJ's job for them and insist , at that stage in the bewilderment of the moment, that Madeleine was abducted?

Immediately they arrived, the police were told about Tannerman carrying a little girl at the pertinent time.  Suppose that that fact didn't sink in?   Didn't ring any bells in the PJ or Amarals brain? 

Hey!  Great detective work. 
The wild goose chase?
Abuse of the PJ?   The Mccanns were being regularly abused ... swingers etc.  Info, and false at that, was being leaked to the media in PT and the PT media was dissipating it.   

It was rumoured at the time that our friend Paulo Christavao, (Amarals mate) was working for the one "red top" and dishing it out.  Please correct me if this rumour was incorrrect.

You would be a fool if you did. 
If they have been following this forum, anyone with half a brain cell now knows that the dogs along with forensics showed nothing, nowt, nada, zilch.

Soz, Mistaken, but you're mistaken again

As usual, Sadie, you are spot on with the Christovao connection ...

Good to have you back.

**Snip
Another of the senior officers who is now an arguido is the recently retired Chief Inspector Paulo Pereira Cristovao.
He is one of the McCanns' principal scourges – not as a detective, but in his new capacity as a columnist for Diario de Noticias, among the most active of Portuguese newspapers in its pursuit of stories about Madeleine derived from leaks.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-482007/Lies-beatings-secret-trials-dark-police-handling-Madeleine-case.html#ixzz3xpnLFK3k

[Eleanor]

As usual, Sadie, you are spot on with the Christovao connection ...

Good to have you back.

**Snip
Another of the senior officers who is now an arguido is the recently retired Chief Inspector Paulo Pereira Cristovao.
He is one of the McCanns' principal scourges – not as a detective, but in his new capacity as a columnist for Diario de Noticias, among the most active of Portuguese newspapers in its pursuit of stories about Madeleine derived from leaks.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-482007/Lies-beatings-secret-trials-dark-police-handling-Madeleine-case.html#ixzz3xpnLFK3k

That is an excellent article, Brietta.  I had forgotten about it.  Thanks for digging it out.

[ShiningInLuz]

So that made Amaral absolutely and utterly convinced that Madeleine was dead?  Cor blimey!   Were they supposed to do the PJ's job for them and insist , at that stage in the bewilderment of the moment, that Madeleine was abducted?

Immediately they arrived, the police were told about Tannerman carrying a little girl at the pertinent time.  Suppose that that fact didn't sink in?   Didn't ring any bells in the PJ or Amarals brain?

Hey!  Great detective work. 
The wild goose chase?
Abuse of the PJ?   The Mccanns were being regularly abused ... swingers etc.  Info, and false at that, was being leaked to the media in PT and the PT media was dissipating it.   

It was rumoured at the time that our friend Paulo Christavao, (Amarals mate) was working for the one "red top" and dishing it out.  Please correct me if this rumour was incorrrect.

You would be a fool if you did. 
If they have been following this forum, anyone with half a brain cell now knows that the dogs along with forensics showed nothing, nowt, nada, zilch.

Soz, Mistaken, but you're mistaken again

"Immediately they arrived, the police were told about Tannerman carrying a little girl at the pertinent time.  Suppose that that fact didn't sink in?   Didn't ring any bells in the PJ or Amarals brain?"

I have been unable to work out, with any degree of precision, when Jane Tanner told the police, and whether she told the GNR or the PJ.

While you were away, the forum has pieced together enough information to make me feel reasonably confident that the earliest the GNR could have arrived at apartment 5A was around 11:20pm.

I don't know precisely what they did, but I doubt Jane Tanner was priority #1 upon arrival.  I believe they searched the house, I ASSUME they would have talked further with Gerry and/or Kate.

I cannot see them getting round to Jane Tanner, or other members of the Tapas group until those activities had been completed, and someone must have radioed the circumstances back to the Lagos GNR station to get the station commander to come out.  I would have thought that would have occurred after the apartment search, the talk to the parents, and before the GNR moved on to talking to other members of the Tapas group, but that is of course an assumption.

We do not appear to know when Jane Tanner passed on her information, other than it was that night, and nailing a time for that would be a step forward.

I can't see any evidence that when dogs first turned up they were taken in the direction Tannerman took, so either the information did not reach them, or they did not think it a profitable line of enquiry.

[G-Unit]

"Immediately they arrived, the police were told about Tannerman carrying a little girl at the pertinent time.  Suppose that that fact didn't sink in?   Didn't ring any bells in the PJ or Amarals brain?"

I have been unable to work out, with any degree of precision, when Jane Tanner told the police, and whether she told the GNR or the PJ.

While you were away, the forum has pieced together enough information to make me feel reasonably confident that the earliest the GNR could have arrived at apartment 5A was around 11:20pm.

I don't know precisely what they did, but I doubt Jane Tanner was priority #1 upon arrival.  I believe they searched the house, I ASSUME they would have talked further with Gerry and/or Kate.

I cannot see them getting round to Jane Tanner, or other members of the Tapas group until those activities had been completed, and someone must have radioed the circumstances back to the Lagos GNR station to get the station commander to come out.  I would have thought that would have occurred after the apartment search, the talk to the parents, and before the GNR moved on to talking to other members of the Tapas group, but that is of course an assumption.

We do not appear to know when Jane Tanner passed on her information, other than it was that night, and nailing a time for that would be a step forward.

I can't see any evidence that when dogs first turned up they were taken in the direction Tannerman took, so either the information did not reach them, or they did not think it a profitable line of enquiry.

According to Russell;

there were two members of the PJ had arrived........................ then turning round to me writing the timeline and saying ‘That’s what we want’........................... At some point Jane came in, I think because Jane was in with our kids at this point, I didn’t hang around too, you know, too long and I went out, but Jane came in I think to give a brief statement to the, the, the PJ on the night...............I think at some stage whilst I was writing this, (the timeline) the PJ were very keen to talk to Gerry then I left and I think then Jane came in, so I think this is something that was actually being written at about a point where I left it with the Police and then Jane was, Jane and Gerry were talking to the PJ”.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

I have seen something in his statements to say he wrote the timeline at about 2-3am on 4th, but can't find it just now.

[pegasus]

@ShiningInLuz
At the soonest opportunity after the 1st GNR team Roque and Costa arrived at and searched the apartment,  JT told officer Roque what she had seen.

"After the search of the interior, his colleague (Costa) went to check the area around the apartments and the Tapas Bar, while the witness (Roque) remained next the apartment, just outside it. At that moment a female individual, he does not know whether she was a member of the group of friends, who was in the neighbouring apartment, said that she saw an individual carrying a child"

[Brietta]

@ShiningInLuz
At the soonest opportunity after the 1st GNR team Roque and Costa arrived at and searched the apartment,  JT told officer Roque what she had seen.

"After the search of the interior, his colleague (Costa) went to check the area around the apartments and the Tapas Bar, while the witness (Roque) remained next the apartment, just outside it. At that moment a female individual, he does not know whether she was a member of the group of friends, who was in the neighbouring apartment, said that she saw an individual carrying a child"

So in effect, Jane Tanner informed the authorities of her sighting of an individual carrying a child in the vicinity of the apartment, at the earliest possible opportunity.

One wonders when the information was passed up the line and how much cognisance was taken of it.

The continuation of the idea that Madeleine woke and wandered carried on for some time into the investigation suggesting that this witness statement wasn't considered with the urgency it might have commanded in a different jurisdiction.

[ShiningInLuz]

@ShiningInLuz
At the soonest opportunity after the 1st GNR team Roque and Costa arrived at and searched the apartment,  JT told officer Roque what she had seen.

"After the search of the interior, his colleague (Costa) went to check the area around the apartments and the Tapas Bar, while the witness (Roque) remained next the apartment, just outside it. At that moment a female individual, he does not know whether she was a member of the group of friends, who was in the neighbouring apartment, said that she saw an individual carrying a child"

I am not on this forum to score points or push my view of what happened.  I find the forum fairly balanced and in the main trying to ascertain accurately the details of what occurred.

So when person X says Z happened, and I had not worked that out before, I am more than happy to be illuminated (shining) or corrected.  For me, that is a step forward.  For me, that is better than before.

Thank you for your illumination.  We now have Jane telling the GNR (not the PJ, but simply the first response team) well before the PJ arrived.

A small point which is extremely important.

Thank you.

[Carana]

 JT rog:

4078    “Who else did you speak to?”

Reply    “I’m trying to think of the order, it was sort of like, it was Rachael first, then it was Fi and I can’t remember when Russell and Matt came back, they came back at, erm, tut, I don’t know whether they came back first or I told them or who else was there, but as soon, the Police, when the Police came, I know Rachael went straight away to get them to say, so that I could tell the GNR, I think, yeah, the GNR, what I’d seen, but I don’t know if I told anybody else, I can’t remember when people like Sylvie, who was the translator, I’m not sure when she arrived whether it was before the Police arrived or after the Police arrived or whenever, but”.

 

4078    “But you told the Police when they came?”

Reply    “Yeah, when they arrived Rachael I think went and got the GNR and I told the GNR chap and then when the PJ actually arrived they came and got me to go and talk to the, the PJ”.



4078    “Were you able to then show them sort of in real terms where you had seen the man by actually physically taking them and showing them?”

Reply    “No, they didn’t, they didn’t take me, the only time I ever showed them where I saw it is when (inaudible), but the chap on the stairs here again, brought me back in the middle of the night from, erm, erm, from doing the sketch, so this was like the second, the night after, so this was quite late...

Silvia Batista:

At some point she translated the statement of one of the ladies who belonged to the group and that she describes as a brunette one. This lady said to the GNR elements, and she (the witness) translated, that she had seen a man on the road who might have carried a child.
This situation surprised her because she (the witness) was convinced that when the lady saw the man, the lady was in a place from where she had no angle of vision for the place where she saw the man. She doesn't know exactly what was the position of the lady when she saw the man, but she knows that the lady said she saw the man in the street in front of the Madeleine's bedroom window, walking in the direction of the street that then leads to the Baptista supermarket.

A bit of lost-in-confusion / translation that night?

[faithlilly]

That is an excellent article, Brietta.  I had forgotten about it.  Thanks for digging it out.

I especially liked the first paragraph.

[sadie]

As usual, Sadie, you are spot on with the Christovao connection ...

Good to have you back.

**Snip
Another of the senior officers who is now an arguido is the recently retired Chief Inspector Paulo Pereira Cristovao.
He is one of the McCanns' principal scourges – not as a detective, but in his new capacity as a columnist for Diario de Noticias, among the most active of Portuguese newspapers in its pursuit of stories about Madeleine derived from leaks.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-482007/Lies-beatings-secret-trials-dark-police-handling-Madeleine-case.html#ixzz3xpnLFK3k

Thank you Brietta.

So we have two arguidos Amaral and Cristavao reputedly working together again as they did on the Joana Cipriano case.  [ETA} But with Joana they were both employed by the PJ.  With Madeleines case, Cristavao was employed as a columnist for Diario de Noticias, and also with another red top, the name of which I forget

Both Chief Inspectors, friends and both accused in the torture trial of Leonor Cipriano

Amaral is now a criminal have committed perjury
Cristavao was charged as one of the torturers but because Leonor had a bag over her head she was unable to verify that he was one of the torturers.  At present, he is being charged with a number of dreadful criminal offenses, but of course he must be cnsidered innocent of those until proven guilty.

Both men seem to have been relieved of their positions with the PJ.  If I am wrong please tell me with cites.

Both men made mega bucks writing the background "stories" of their trials.  Cristavao writing about both Joana and Madeleine and Amaral writing about Madeleine.

And I wonder, only wonder, if one of the reasons for writing the books, apart from money, was to put out propaganda against Joanas mother Leonor, and against The Mccanns, thus strengthening their own respective positions by weakening the positions of Leonor and The Mccanns.

I repeat that I only wonder this.  Is there any evidence for or against this do you think?