Author Topic: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.  (Read 262480 times)

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Offline misty

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #975 on: February 07, 2016, 04:27:41 PM »
Photo of access to block 4 from block 5 (courtesy of Shining).

[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #976 on: February 07, 2016, 04:43:42 PM »
That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Thanks for this.

OK.

I now see 3 alternatives, as follows.

1) The children ran to the end of block 5 remaining in the pathway, and not entering the car park of block 5.  This is not the route dogs took, is it?

2) The children ran into the car park of block 5.  We do not know if there were any cars in it at the time.  Then they turned left, and went down the alley.  This is the route the dogs took, isn't it?  But it does not take you into anyone's garden, so it does not fit Gerry's narrative.

3) The children ran into the car park of block 5.  (Or of course, were in it when the running started.)  Again, we do not know if there were any cars in the car park.  They went to the top of the alleyway.  I cannot remember if there are stairs down from car park 5 to the alleyway, but there are definitely stairs up from the alleyway to the car park of block 4.  They then run from the top of the steps through half the length of car park 4.  Again, there may or may not have been cars in the car park.  Half way along block 4 they make a slight swerve to the left to get into the pathway in front of block 4.  They continue west until they get to the gate near 4F.  Just as with option 1) somehow this obstacle is overcome.  They turn left as they can go no further and find themselves in the back garden of 4F.  This is not the route the dogs took, is it?

So, the dogs took a route that did not match Gerry's description.

Going around the inside of block 5 is probably easier, but why Gerry's statement mentions blocks plural is a mystery.  Just to be clear, my comment that Gerry did not recognise the location does NOT appear in the statement.

Going to the furthest end of the blocks fits Gerry's statement, but is definitely a less likely option.  We now have to have the twins running up a flight of perhaps 6 or 7 stairs to get into the car park of block 4.

I never really thought about this in minute detail.  I saw something innocuous.  The kids having a bit of an adventure with Dad following close behind to make sure they were safe.

Bottom line, the route for this adventure does not appear to match the dogs route other than roughly.

If this is an important point, I'll have a look at Gerry's statement to see how accurate the Portuguese to English translation is.
What's up, old man?

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #977 on: February 07, 2016, 04:51:11 PM »
Photo of access to block 4 from block 5 (courtesy of Shining).
OK.  No steps down actually from block 5 to get to the junction with block 4.  Definite steps up to get from 5 to 4.  And a couple of steps at the top of the alleyway.

Not particularly running territory for children aged two and a quarter.

I meant to mention, in general, the prevailing wind here has a general west to east direction.  What is was doing around the time I do not know.
What's up, old man?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #978 on: February 07, 2016, 08:21:01 PM »
OK.  No steps down actually from block 5 to get to the junction with block 4.  Definite steps up to get from 5 to 4.  And a couple of steps at the top of the alleyway.

Not particularly running territory for children aged two and a quarter.

I meant to mention, in general, the prevailing wind here has a general west to east direction.  What is was doing around the time I do not know.

I think the translation might bear looking at, it's fairly unclear. I'm inclined to think Gerry told the PJ about the running away incident because he saw the route the dogs took after sniffing the towel. The group believed an abduction had taken place at 9.15pm and that Tannerman was the abductor. Therefore the dogs went the wrong way in their opinion. He must have wondered why the dogs didn't turn right and track Tannerman. Then he remembered the children running away and made sure he brought it to the attention of the PJ in case they got the wrong idea. He also told them that Madeleine visited the Payne apartment, because the dogs showed an interest there too.

Of course Redwood was almost sure that Tannerman could be eliminated. I wonder if he then remembered those dogs going left out of the apartment? That may suggest that whoever took the child went out of the front door, turned left and went down between the blocks. Then it gets silly. They turned left again and headed towards the road. At the road they turned left again, and headed towards the T Junction. They then crossed the road to the wall of Block 6, turned right and headed towards the car park south of Block 6. It's unlikely that Madeleine or an abductor took that route. I wonder what the dogs were following? What a shame they can't talk.
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Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #979 on: February 07, 2016, 11:45:18 PM »
@GUnit.
"Wall of block 6" means the  west end wall (several storys high) of the block 6 building.
The GNR dogs trail did not head towards the T-junction.
Emerging from the alleyway the dogs went east across Rua Martins then south along the east pavement of Rua Martins.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 11:48:50 PM by pegasus »

ferryman

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Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #980 on: February 07, 2016, 11:49:46 PM »
I think the translation might bear looking at, it's fairly unclear. I'm inclined to think Gerry told the PJ about the running away incident because he saw the route the dogs took after sniffing the towel. The group believed an abduction had taken place at 9.15pm and that Tannerman was the abductor. Therefore the dogs went the wrong way in their opinion. He must have wondered why the dogs didn't turn right and track Tannerman. Then he remembered the children running away and made sure he brought it to the attention of the PJ in case they got the wrong idea. He also told them that Madeleine visited the Payne apartment, because the dogs showed an interest there too.

Of course Redwood was almost sure that Tannerman could be eliminated. I wonder if he then remembered those dogs going left out of the apartment? That may suggest that whoever took the child went out of the front door, turned left and went down between the blocks. Then it gets silly. They turned left again and headed towards the road. At the road they turned left again, and headed towards the T Junction. They then crossed the road to the wall of Block 6, turned right and headed towards the car park south of Block 6. It's unlikely that Madeleine or an abductor took that route. I wonder what the dogs were following? What a shame they can't talk.

I've lost count of how often the point has made that the efforts of the GNR dog-handlers, though valiant and commendable, were irrelevant.

They weren't the right dogs for the job.

Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #981 on: February 08, 2016, 12:05:53 AM »
I've lost count of how often the point has made that the efforts of the GNR dog-handlers, though valiant and commendable, were irrelevant.

They weren't the right dogs for the job.
It is interesting that the way the GNR dogs crossed the road matched the way a child would from an early age be trained to cross a road.
An imaginary abductor going from alleyway to the carpark south of G6 that night would certainly have crossed the road diagonally because its the shortest route.
But a lone child crosses straight even if there is absolutely no traffic.

The person being tracked by those GNR dogs crossed that road straight.

Offline misty

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #982 on: February 08, 2016, 12:14:10 AM »
It is interesting that the way the GNR dogs crossed the road matched the way a child would from an early age be trained to cross a road.
An imaginary abductor going from alleyway to the carpark south of G6 that night would certainly have crossed the road diagonally because its the shortest route.
But a lone child crosses straight even if there is absolutely no traffic.

The person being tracked by those GNR dogs crossed that road straight.

The dog headed left UP the hill to the main road, where it crossed the road. Both handlers stated that.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #983 on: February 08, 2016, 12:36:17 AM »
@GUnit.
"Wall of block 6" means the  west end wall (several storys high) of the block 6 building.
The GNR dogs trail did not head towards the T-junction.
Emerging from the alleyway the dogs went east across Rua Martins then south along the east pavement of Rua Martins.

I have looked closely at the dog handler's statement, and there is actually a mistranslation. The dogs turned left after exiting the alleyway. I have posted about it previously, I'll try to find it later.
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Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #984 on: February 08, 2016, 03:36:17 PM »
If the dog trail refers to the 'specialist' dogs brought in late on 4th, the following is relevant.

Kate's book, p85.  The para is long, so here's the summary.  At some time on the 4th, the McCanns were asked for an article relating solely to Madeleine.  Out of the offerings, they took the pink princess blanket.
What's up, old man?

Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #985 on: February 09, 2016, 03:58:43 PM »
If the dog trail refers to the 'specialist' dogs brought in late on 4th, the following is relevant.

Kate's book, p85.  The para is long, so here's the summary.  At some time on the 4th, the McCanns were asked for an article relating solely to Madeleine.  Out of the offerings, they took the pink princess blanket.
Yes. This is a first-hand account by IMO a very honest witness. It is confirmed in the files, for example "the dogs were given a blanket to sniff ... which had been used by Madeleine" (Processos XIII p3517).

The strongest human scent on this comfort blanket is likely to be the child's. So the scent trail followed by the dogs which used it as a scent source needs to be carefully examined, no matter how impossible it seems for a trail to just disappear on Rua Martins

Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #986 on: February 09, 2016, 04:16:44 PM »
In handler Fernandes statement, after reaching the lamppost, the first dog

"again crossed the road and headed toward the entrance to the pool and restaurant area, and smelled the door"

This is interesting. This door cannot be opened by a dog. What would you do next if you were the handler?   

« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 04:21:32 PM by pegasus »

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #987 on: February 09, 2016, 04:40:54 PM »
In handler Fernandes statement, after reaching the lamppost, the first dog

"again crossed the road and headed toward the entrance to the pool and restaurant area, and smelled the door"

This is interesting. This door cannot be opened by a dog. What would you do next if you were the handler?   
The translation of Fernandes statement says the door was closed.  I suspect it was actually locked, and the Tapas area was closed.  I doubt Fernandes stopped at a door he could open.

Fernandes says they turned up at 10.30.  Kate, p85 again "According to the files, the tracker dogs did not go out until 11pm on 4 May".

The normal clock-off time for the staff was 12 midnight.  Perhaps they closed early after the search of the previous night.
What's up, old man?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #988 on: February 09, 2016, 06:28:32 PM »
The translation of Fernandes statement says the door was closed.  I suspect it was actually locked, and the Tapas area was closed.  I doubt Fernandes stopped at a door he could open.

Fernandes says they turned up at 10.30.  Kate, p85 again "According to the files, the tracker dogs did not go out until 11pm on 4 May".

The normal clock-off time for the staff was 12 midnight.  Perhaps they closed early after the search of the previous night.

I think I'll stick with the handler's accounts of what the dogs sniffed, being as they handled it and their statements were taken fairly quickly after the event.

Info from Fernandes' statement 9th May 2007.

Most of the dogs involved were search and rescue dogs who searched the village and the open spaces. The only tracker dogs used were Rex and Zarus, handled by Fernandes. They arrived about 10.30pm on 4th May, and Fernandes was asked to try to track the child. He was given a towel, supposedly used by the child for the dogs to sniff. On the 7th he repeated the exercise inside and outside the blocks using the same towel. The dogs followed the same outside route each time.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm

Antonio Silva agrees, statement given on 9th May 2007

They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child in question.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm

The quote about the pink blanket comes from the report of Major Sequeira dated December 2007;

For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
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Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #989 on: February 09, 2016, 08:16:52 PM »
The translation of Fernandes statement says the door was closed.  I suspect it was actually locked, and the Tapas area was closed.  I doubt Fernandes stopped at a door he could open.

Fernandes says they turned up at 10.30.  Kate, p85 again "According to the files, the tracker dogs did not go out until 11pm on 4 May".

The normal clock-off time for the staff was 12 midnight.  Perhaps they closed early after the search of the previous night.
Yes "fechada" obviously here means "locked".
So the scent trail of a missing child is tracked by one dog to the outer door of that reception building, and that tracking is then abandoned, just because the door was locked, so the dog is unable to continue tracking!
And so the dog team never finds out whether the child had entered that door, whether the child then also went through the inner door, whether the child continued into the pools area. If I was the officer in charge I would have urgently requested a key.