Author Topic: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.  (Read 263086 times)

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stephen25000

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Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1035 on: February 12, 2016, 09:17:28 AM »
Have you ever wondered that the McCann's meant in the case of a fire,  that people would be able to get in and rescue the children?

The patio was the quickest route to the children,  they say it only took a minute or two to get there.

With the steps leading up and two gates,   they must have thought that someone would be less likely to enter the apartment,  and of course how would anyone know the patio door was open unless they had been observing the family?

So why would intelligent people leave children by themselves in a potential fire risk ?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1036 on: February 12, 2016, 09:24:09 AM »
You are getting confused with your locked and unlocked,,,SY and the new PJ investigation do not think the McCanns are involved...you need to wake up

Wouldn't it make a nice change for you to actually join in a debate and post your reasons for the sweeping statements you make? No matter what the subject of the thread you merely trot out your 'one answer fits all' mantra.

The apartment was usually locked up in the daytime and usually unlocked at night, except when they get confused about it, like Gerry did about 3rd May. Obviously he'd completely forgotten the discussion he and Kate had about whether to lock the patio doors or not. You remember, the couple who 'didn't even think about it, it felt so safe'?


she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up',

'And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry, Gerry had sort of said 'Oh it will be fine', you know. But she was obviously, because it wasn't something she was quite easy with, that's the way it came across, you know, but, but Gerry said, you know, 'It'll be fine. It'll be fine'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm


 
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1037 on: February 12, 2016, 09:44:53 AM »
Have you ever wondered that the McCann's meant in the case of a fire,  that people would be able to get in and rescue the children?

The patio was the quickest route to the children,  they say it only took a minute or two to get there.

With the steps leading up and two gates,   they must have thought that someone would be less likely to enter the apartment,  and of course how would anyone know the patio door was open unless they had been observing the family?

Who are these 'people' who are going to enter burning buildings then? Passers by? They wouldn't know the patio doors were unlocked.

The patio door was indeed the quickest route. I assume therefore it was left open for the benefit of the parents, not the children.

Kate says. "It's hard to answer the question, 'Were we wrong to leave them?' If I'd had to think for one second, 'Should we have dinner and leave them?' I wouldn't have done it.
 
"It didn't happen like that. I didn't have to think for a second, that's how safe I felt.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id16.html

No thought, no discussion apparently. It never even entered their heads that what they were doing was foolish.
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Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1038 on: February 13, 2016, 03:53:20 AM »
Do we know who was in 5F that week, please?
No-0ne Misty

Block G5 occupation that week

groundfloor
a yes
b yes
c no
d yes
e no
f no
-
1st floor
g yes
h yes
i no
j no
-
2nd floor
k yes
l no
m no
n no
-
3rd and 4th floors splitlevel (bedrooms on 3rd floor and lounge etc on 4th floor)
o no
p no
q no
r no

Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1039 on: February 13, 2016, 08:00:20 AM »
No-0ne Misty

Block G5 occupation that week

groundfloor
a yes
b yes
c no
d yes
e no
f no
-
1st floor
g yes
h yes
i no
j no
-
2nd floor
k yes
l no
m no
n no
-
3rd and 4th floors splitlevel (bedrooms on 3rd floor and lounge etc on 4th floor)
o no
p no
q no
r no

Can you tell me how you know which apartments were empty?
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Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1040 on: February 13, 2016, 08:44:02 PM »
Can you tell me how you know which apartments were empty?
From many sources G-Unit, including a source known to covert investigation professionals by the code name "cleaner" see Proc II p392

"when the child disappeared only apartments A, B, D, G, H and K were occupied".

So in that block, 6 occupied and 12 unoccupied
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 09:38:17 PM by pegasus »

Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1041 on: February 13, 2016, 09:54:27 PM »
From many sources G-Unit, including a source known to covert investigation professionals by the code name "cleaner" see Proc II p392

"when the child disappeared only apartments A, B, D, G, H and K were occupied".

So in that block, 6 occupied and 12 unoccupied

The cleaner commented only on the apartments she cleaned. She didn't for example, clean for Mrs Fenn as far as I know. Did she clean for the Moyes? I don't know. There could have been other owner-occupiers in Block 5.
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Offline misty

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1042 on: February 13, 2016, 10:43:51 PM »
No-0ne Misty

Block G5 occupation that week

groundfloor
a yes
b yes
c no
d yes
e no
f no
-
1st floor
g yes
h yes
i no
j no
-
2nd floor
k yes
l no
m no
n no
-
3rd and 4th floors splitlevel (bedrooms on 3rd floor and lounge etc on 4th floor)
o no
p no
q no
r no

Would it therefore be reasonable to assume that the gate blocking pathway access around the side of 5F would have been unlocked rather than locked if the apartment was unoccupied? I can't see a purpose for it other than privacy, preventing people cutting through to the back passageway instead of using the public alleyway.

Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1043 on: February 14, 2016, 12:11:11 AM »
Would it therefore be reasonable to assume that the gate blocking pathway access around the side of 5F would have been unlocked rather than locked if the apartment was unoccupied? I can't see a purpose for it other than privacy, preventing people cutting through to the back passageway instead of using the public alleyway.
I think this gate is mentioned somewhere else in the files too but I can't find it again. It is on the north (carpark) side of block 5, in between a window of the bedroom of 5E and the window of north bedroom of 5F. I don't know its purpose.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1044 on: February 14, 2016, 09:23:00 AM »
I think this gate is mentioned somewhere else in the files too but I can't find it again. It is on the north (carpark) side of block 5, in between a window of the bedroom of 5E and the window of north bedroom of 5F. I don't know its purpose.
Convention, or law, in Portugal.  If a property is unfenced, anyone can walk on it and take, for example, some types of fruit from it or hunt on it.  If fenced off, neither of these activities is permitted.

There are exceptions in both fenced and unfenced, but you don't want chapter and verse.

The gate signifies that public access is not welcome and that the territory within 'belongs' to 5F and is private.

The gate does not need to be locked to signify this.  It merely needs to be closed.

My driveway gates are open at this point in time.  Technically, this means it is OK for people to come onto my property and take my .....

.... fallen pine cones, which are used here to get a winter fire going in the wood burner.

As it happens, most people stop where the gates are, even if the gates are open.  That is why we seldom shut them.

I would expect the gate at 5F to be closed but not locked.  The photo earlier clearly shows 3 utility meter hatches on the side of 5F.  Somebody has the right of access to read those.
What's up, old man?

Offline misty

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1045 on: February 14, 2016, 11:10:26 AM »
Convention, or law, in Portugal.  If a property is unfenced, anyone can walk on it and take, for example, some types of fruit from it or hunt on it.  If fenced off, neither of these activities is permitted.

There are exceptions in both fenced and unfenced, but you don't want chapter and verse.

The gate signifies that public access is not welcome and that the territory within 'belongs' to 5F and is private.

The gate does not need to be locked to signify this.  It merely needs to be closed.

My driveway gates are open at this point in time.  Technically, this means it is OK for people to come onto my property and take my .....

.... fallen pine cones, which are used here to get a winter fire going in the wood burner.

As it happens, most people stop where the gates are, even if the gates are open.  That is why we seldom shut them.

I would expect the gate at 5F to be closed but not locked.  The photo earlier clearly shows 3 utility meter hatches on the side of 5F.  Somebody has the right of access to read those.

Do you receive advance notification of the date on which the utility meters are going to be read, as there seem to be quite a few gated villas in Luz?
As a side issue, where are the collection points for incoming mail?

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1046 on: February 14, 2016, 11:49:57 AM »
Do you receive advance notification of the date on which the utility meters are going to be read, as there seem to be quite a few gated villas in Luz?
As a side issue, where are the collection points for incoming mail?
There are many gated villas in Luz.  Gated is the norm for a villa in Luz.

No-one gets advance notice when the meters are to be read.

Standard practice is that meters are on the outside of the property, so do not require entry to the plot.  The main meters are water and electricity.  Mains gas is rare, at least outside of major conurbations.  Bottled gas is dirt cheap.  We go though roughly €100 per year.  Bear in mind we do have gas central heating, but we have seldom used it, so gas consumption is cooker top and hot water for showers.

Incoming mail is fairly complex.  When we make our next move to a home we are purchasing, we will have a post box of our own on the outside wall of our villa.  Mail etc will get stuffed into it without entry to our property.  It is not normal for people with holiday homes to use such a system.

When we were shifting from pillar to post a better method was to use the Royal Mail, which operates a re-direct system (for a charge).  At the moment, our mail heads to an address in the UK, to a property we sold years ago.  Then Royal Mail intercepts and re-directs to a UK address occupied by our family.  Then the family looks at the mail, and takes appropriate action.

We therefore have 2 types of people in the McCann scenario, which I assume is your point of interest.

People who have made Portugal their home, such as Mrs Fenn, and our new neighbours.  And people who simply have a holiday home, such as most of the Ocean Club.

People with holiday homes would not be interested in getting mail directed to Portugal, so no mailbox.  I am not aware of any letterboxes or external mailboxes around blocks 4, 5 or 6, but please don't quote me on this.  If it is important, I can wander down and have a gander.

Then there's people like me, hopefully moving into a new home.  The property has a much battered mailbox on the outside.  I have a shiny new mailbox.  I hope to have our mail delivered to our shiny new mailbox, but this is Portugal, so I am far from certain.

This leaves us with people like Mrs Fenn, who appears to be resident, but seemingly no apparent mailbox.  A further option is that we can get mail delivered to the Post Office on Rua Direita, and pick it up from there.

One final trick on mail.  Some bits and pieces, such as from Amazon, we get delivered to where the children live in Luz at the moment, on the basis that Mum is highly likely to be in at delivery time.
What's up, old man?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1047 on: February 14, 2016, 12:20:33 PM »
There are many gated villas in Luz.  Gated is the norm for a villa in Luz.

No-one gets advance notice when the meters are to be read.

Standard practice is that meters are on the outside of the property, so do not require entry to the plot.  The main meters are water and electricity.  Mains gas is rare, at least outside of major conurbations.  Bottled gas is dirt cheap.  We go though roughly €100 per year.  Bear in mind we do have gas central heating, but we have seldom used it, so gas consumption is cooker top and hot water for showers.

Incoming mail is fairly complex.  When we make our next move to a home we are purchasing, we will have a post box of our own on the outside wall of our villa.  Mail etc will get stuffed into it without entry to our property.  It is not normal for people with holiday homes to use such a system.

When we were shifting from pillar to post a better method was to use the Royal Mail, which operates a re-direct system (for a charge).  At the moment, our mail heads to an address in the UK, to a property we sold years ago.  Then Royal Mail intercepts and re-directs to a UK address occupied by our family.  Then the family looks at the mail, and takes appropriate action.

We therefore have 2 types of people in the McCann scenario, which I assume is your point of interest.

People who have made Portugal their home, such as Mrs Fenn, and our new neighbours.  And people who simply have a holiday home, such as most of the Ocean Club.

People with holiday homes would not be interested in getting mail directed to Portugal, so no mailbox.  I am not aware of any letterboxes or external mailboxes around blocks 4, 5 or 6, but please don't quote me on this.  If it is important, I can wander down and have a gander.

Then there's people like me, hopefully moving into a new home.  The property has a much battered mailbox on the outside.  I have a shiny new mailbox.  I hope to have our mail delivered to our shiny new mailbox, but this is Portugal, so I am far from certain.

This leaves us with people like Mrs Fenn, who appears to be resident, but seemingly no apparent mailbox.  A further option is that we can get mail delivered to the Post Office on Rua Direita, and pick it up from there.

One final trick on mail.  Some bits and pieces, such as from Amazon, we get delivered to where the children live in Luz at the moment, on the basis that Mum is highly likely to be in at delivery time.

and what relevance does any of that have to teh McCann case

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1048 on: February 14, 2016, 02:40:15 PM »
and what relevance does any of that have to teh McCann case
Question asked.  Question answered.

Relevance - dunno.  Why are you asking me?  I did not raise the question.
What's up, old man?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1049 on: February 14, 2016, 03:17:09 PM »
Question asked.  Question answered.

Relevance - dunno.  Why are you asking me?  I did not raise the question.

Is central heating common in Luz, SIL? If so, what sort would it be? If not, would people have something else like oil filled radiators or electric fires? I'm mostly interested in relation to the holiday apartments.
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