Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.

[Anthro]

 GA got this bit wrong. KM's prints were not "in a position of opening the window".
Her 5 prints were actually all on the glass.
Amaral and his break-in expert mistakenly used a photo of a GNR print from the edge of the lounge sliding door (thats how they get "in a position of opening") and treated it as KM's on the bedroom window.
KM is 100% innocent IMO she genuinely found the window already open and leaned on it exactly as she says.
JT likewise, 100% innocent, genuinely passed the chat and saw innocentman carrying his 2yr-old IMO.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 09:32:58 PM by pegasus »

[Mr Gray]

Explanations offered by the person who claimed the window was open aren't evidence that it was really open. It's from the same source!

it is evidence...but not proof. I dont think you understand what evidence means.

[John]

it is evidence...but not proof. I dont think you understand what evidence means.

Evidence is something which can be collected by investigators. The confused uncorroborated claims by the mother of a missing child could never be considered as evidence.

[John]

No … it happened exactly as Kate McCann described and it is borne out by the evidence that the window was already open when she entered the room.  There were no fingerprints lifted from the handle.

 VESTIGES COLLECTED
5….. Fingerprints….Inside interior window of the children’s bedroom…..DBT…..Suf
Observations: The fingerprint traces collected are identified as being the middle finger of the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), of the missing girl’s mother,

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm


The right hand sliding glass was open. 
A person leaning forward to look through would support themselves using their right hand either on the wall or the windowsill.  While placing the palm of their left hand on the frame of the already opened sliding section with fingers extending onto the glass to leave fingerprints.
 
That matches the description of events given by Kate McCann from which she has never wavered.  It matches the forensic evidence as recorded in the PJ Files above.  There is no forensic evidence that she opened the window, but the forensic evidence supports her statement that she found the window open and she leaned out.

I disagree Brietta.   Given the obstruction of the spare single bed below the window, someone opening the RHS sliding pane would release the latch and slide it using their left hand imo while steadying themselves by resting their right hand on the sill or window frame. 

[Mr Gray]

Evidence is something which can be collected by investigators. The confused uncorroborated claims by the mother of a missing child could never be considered as evidence.

You are wrong John...a witness statement is evidence and would be admissible in court as evidence. It may be weak but its evidence.

What is a witness statement?
1. A witness statement is a document recording the evidence of a person, which is signed by that person to confirm that the contents of the statement are true.

[John]

You are wrong John...a witness statement is evidence and would be admissible in court as evidence. It may be weak but its evidence.

What is a witness statement?
1. A witness statement is a document recording the evidence of a person, which is signed by that person to confirm that the contents of the statement are true.

It has no evidential reliability if uncorroborated.  Now where have I heard that before...   

[Mr Gray]

It has no evidential reliability if uncorroborated.  Now where have I heard that before...   

It's your opinion that the statement has no evidential reliability... It was grimes opinion that the alerts had no evidential reliability
There's a big difference

[Miss Taken Identity]

It's your opinion that the statement has no evidential reliability... It was grimes opinion that the alerts had no evidential reliability
There's a big difference

It is better not to get confused about this.

Uncorroborated statement like " he pushed me to the ground and I hit my head"  would be presented as -does the judge /jury believe that to have happened.

corroborated EVIDENCE " He pushed me to the ground and I hit my head"  a video is shown of this taking place. The judge /jury can see it happened.

[Brietta]

It is better not to get confused about this.

Uncorroborated statement like " he pushed me to the ground and I hit my head"  would be presented as -does the judge /jury believe that to have happened.

corroborated EVIDENCE " He pushed me to the ground and I hit my head"  a video is shown of this taking place. The judge /jury can see it happened.

So if it is not recorded on video it hasn't happened.  That is an interesting opinion to hold.

[Brietta]

I disagree Brietta.   Given the obstruction of the spare single bed below the window, someone opening the RHS sliding pane would release the latch and slide it using their left hand imo while steadying themselves by resting their right hand on the sill or window frame.

Bedroom window of 5A showing handle

The point is that Kate found the window open, not that she opened it.

Were I opening that window, I would release the catch (press the button in? using the thumb of my left hand) and slide it to the side using the same hand on the handle and leaving fingerprints behind.
At no time would I have put my hand on the glass to slide the window open.  Were I using the window as a support when leaning out my fingerprints would have been approximately in the position Kate's were.

[Eleanor]

Bedroom window of 5A showing handle

The point is that Kate found the window open, not that she opened it.

Were I opening that window, I would release the catch (press the button in? using the thumb of my left hand) and slide it to the side using the same hand on the handle and leaving fingerprints behind.
At no time would I have put my hand on the glass to slide the window open.  Were I using the window as a support when leaning out my fingerprints would have been approximately in the position Kate's were.

Excellent.

[sadie]

Bedroom window of 5A showing handle

The point is that Kate found the window open, not that she opened it.

Were I opening that window, I would release the catch (press the button in? using the thumb of my left hand) and slide it to the side using the same hand on the handle and leaving fingerprints behind.
At no time would I have put my hand on the glass to slide the window open.  Were I using the window as a support when leaning out my fingerprints would have been approximately in the position Kate's were.

 
[end quote]


With the window open already, all Kate had to do was slide it further open, using the handle, or maybe not even have to slide it at all if already fully open  There was very limited space between the basket chair and the bed which would have made it tricky looking out.  In fact, I doubt that she could fit both legs in the gap.  Almost certainly in my opinion, she would have to stand on one leg, or place the second behind the first because of the lack of space.     

To give her the stability to look out and down as thoroughly as possible, she would want good purchase on the floor and support on either side.  Kate is no slouch, she probably leaned out as far as she could


I agree with Briettas thoughts that Kate would support herself as much as possible against the RH window frame, or wall, and on the left hand side benefit with support in the middle of the window where her prints were found: That would steady her as well

[sadie]

GA got this bit wrong. KM's prints were not "in a position of opening the window".
Her 5 prints were actually all on the glass.
Amaral and his break-in expert mistakenly used a photo of a GNR print from the edge of the lounge sliding door (thats how they get "in a position of opening") and treated it as KM's on the bedroom window.
KM is 100% innocent IMO she genuinely found the window already open and leaned on it exactly as she says.
JT likewise, 100% innocent, genuinely passed the chat and saw innocentman carrying his 2yr-old IMO.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 09:32:58 PM by pegasus »

Well spotted Anthro.

So Amaral used prints of the GNR officer from the lounge patio door ... and passed them off as Kates prints on Madeleines windows.


Boy oh Boy!  What was going on?


I agree, KM is 100% innocent IMO she genuinely found the window already open and leaned on it exactly as she says.

However due to timings of the Gerry/Jez chat and that of Innocent man coming home, I am inclined to disagree with you on your second thoughts about Innocent man.

Also, Jane saw him going in an easterly direction along Rua Agostinho da Silva after crossing the road that Jane was walking up.   In order to have entered his apartment building, Innocent man would have had to deflect right and travel 8 metres in a southerly direction down the very, fairly narrow road that Jane was walking up. 


His apartment block had only the one entrance in and it was at least 8 metres south of where Jane saw him walking along Agostinho. 


I think that Jane saw Tannerman and he was carrying Madeleine.


As a woman on her own, after dark, in a poorly lit road, imo Jane would have kept a pretty close eye on where he went.

[G-Unit]

So if it is not recorded on video it hasn't happened.  That is an interesting opinion to hold.

The point is that Kate's claim is uncorroborated except by her husband. Therefore it's not a fact, no matter how many people believe it.

[Lace]

Well said Brietta -  Were I opening that window, I would release the catch (press the button in? using the thumb of my left hand) and slide it to the side using the same hand on the handle and leaving fingerprints behind.

If trying to stage an abduction,  I would then wipe my finger prints away.