Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[Carew]

I agree Eleanor.   

Eddie didn't know that what he did was 'work' - to him it was something he did which led to lots of praise and a treat from his owner.    IMO he would naturally be excited at that prospect - especially in the first few moments after being released from being confined in his cage for a while.

Did the handler support your and Eleanor`s conclusions about the dog`s behaviour when deployed in this case ...........(or are they again, simply the opinions of amateurs who think they know better?)

Did the handler give the dog "treats" after alerts in 5A and elsewhere?
Are you implying that an alert in the apartment meant that a treat or praise would ensue?

[Carana]

"The Government’s National Policing Improvement Agency  (NPIA) said specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence."

How about starting with false alerts? How many false alerts had Eddie according to Martin Grimes?

"The dogs' CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI's "Body Farm," the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies.

Amongst the most media-covered cases, which they contributed to resolving, is that of the disappearance in Northern Ireland of Attracta Harron, who was last seen when she was returning home on foot, after having been to church. All searches carried out by the police were unsuccessful. The main suspect's car having been totally burnt out in a mysterious fire, couldn't be examined. They called in Eddie, who examined the charred remains of the vehicle and immediately picked out the characteristic odour. Human tissue was found amongst the debris, the DNA of which corresponded to the missing woman. Later, the dog indicated the place - close to a river - where the victim's body had been abandoned. At the home of the suspect, where the police were searching for incriminating evidence, Eddie identified cadaver odour in one of the bedrooms. The man confessed to having killed the woman then moving her body to the banks of the river.

The case of Amanda Edwards, reported missing, is also very impressive. The police, who conducted a search of her ex-partner's home, found small bloodstains there, but no trace of a body. The dog, who was brought in for the examination of the man''s vehicle, alerted to cadaver odour on the tools stored in the boot (a shovel, a level and a compactor). The police went to the building site where the suspect had worked a few days before and discovered the body, buried in a garage. The murderer had made efficient use of his tools to carry out his task.

It's also thanks to the help of the dogs that the case of Charlotte Pinkley, a missing British woman, who had been imprisoned by her ex-partner, was resolved. The police requested the help of the specialist dog team to try to find the young woman's body. Eddie picked out a place where the abductor had provisionally left his victim. In the surrounding area, the investigators found the button from a dress that had belonged to Charlotte. That clue exposed the murderer, who ended up showing the police the place where he had hidden the body."

I'm sure Eddie has been useful, although three success cases wouldn't seem to bear any relevance to a 100%  success rate unless these were the only ones cited.

What on earth was this case about:


The most poignant being :
When 'Keela' was nine months old she was tasked to search an open fishing boat, contaminated by rotting fish flesh and BLOOD.
A missing person was believed to have killed on the boat.
The dog located and alerted to a blood sample that was so small that when LOW
COPY analysed was reported as being PRIMATE and an uncompleted sample.
There are only two scenarios to suit this find. The blood was either human or a gorilla went out in a boat fishing ! !
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

I'm sure that he was proud that Keela could distinguish between a fish and a primate as a young dog in training.

However, even if it had been established to have been human blood on a fishing boat, there doesn't seem to be any relationship (based on that anecdotal account) between her findings and anyone on that boat who could have nicked a finger and the presumed victim. The case may have since been solved, but I'm not aware of which case this may have referred to.

[gilet]

I think that most people would agree that Martin Grime is far more expert on the subject of the work of dogs in police investigations than anyone on this forum (probably, unless there happens to be an expert lurking) and even more expert than the average police officer (no matter how senior that officer happens to be).

Therefore we should read with care what Martin Grime himself said in his report after the trip he made to PDL with Eddie and Keela. I am certain that the review team (later investigation team) from Scotland Yard have read with care what he had to say and I would expect that the PJ review team (later investigation team) from Oporto have also read with care what he had to say.

A few short quotes from his report will indicate that he does not state that there was any proof of death or even that there was any certainty of "cadaver scent" having been detected by his dogs.

Apt 5A
The first alert was given with the dogs head in the air without a positive area being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible evidence to be located only the remaining scent. The second alert was one where a definitive area was evident. The CSI dog was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely presence of human blood.

McCann Villa
The only alert indication given was when the dog located a pink cuddly toy in the villas lounge. The CSI dog did not alert to the toy when screened separately. It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent contamination. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

Clothing
The only alert indication was by the EVRD on clothing from one of the boxes. I am not in possession of the details as these were recorded by the PJ officers present.

McCann Car
This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and no human remains were found. The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the boot area. Forensic samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a forensic laboratory in the U.K. It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent' contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

General
The dog alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as evidence.


That some people (and I would include the initial PJ reaction in this) take this report as definitive proof that a child died in that apartment indicates to me that those people have either not read the report carefully enough or have not done so with a genuinely open mind as to what conclusions can be drawn from the report.

There is a possibility that the dogs alerted to "cadaver scent" and there is an equal possibility according to Martin Grime that they did not. In no location was there any actual evidence found.

This is not a question of "dissing the dogs" whose role in assisting the police is an excellent one. It is a matter of respecting the view of the dog handler himself and his conclusions. As Martin Grime makes clear the dogs a re simply a tool for leading the police to areas where further investigation must be done.

There are questions about the further investigations which were undertaken (and in some cases it seems not undertaken: for example is there any record of the toy having been forensically analysed) but these do not reflect on the work of Martin Grime or his dogs whose contribution should be respected and whose report should be read carefully.

[Anna]

I think that most people would agree that Martin Grime is far more expert on the subject of the work of dogs in police investigations than anyone on this forum (probably, unless there happens to be an expert lurking) and even more expert than the average police officer (no matter how senior that officer happens to be).

Therefore we should read with care what Martin Grime himself said in his report after the trip he made to PDL with Eddie and Keela. I am certain that the review team (later investigation team) from Scotland Yard have read with care what he had to say and I would expect that the PJ review team (later investigation team) from Oporto have also read with care what he had to say.

A few short quotes from his report will indicate that he does not state that there was any proof of death or even that there was any certainty of "cadaver scent" having been detected by his dogs.

Apt 5A
The first alert was given with the dogs head in the air without a positive area being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible evidence to be located only the remaining scent. The second alert was one where a definitive area was evident. The CSI dog was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely presence of human blood.

McCann Villa
The only alert indication given was when the dog located a pink cuddly toy in the villas lounge. The CSI dog did not alert to the toy when screened separately. It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent contamination. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

Clothing
The only alert indication was by the EVRD on clothing from one of the boxes. I am not in possession of the details as these were recorded by the PJ officers present.

McCann Car
This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and no human remains were found. The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the boot area. Forensic samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a forensic laboratory in the U.K. It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent' contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

General
The dog alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as evidence.


That some people (and I would include the initial PJ reaction in this) take this report as definitive proof that a child died in that apartment indicates to me that those people have either not read the report carefully enough or have not done so with a genuinely open mind as to what conclusions can be drawn from the report.

There is a possibility that the dogs alerted to "cadaver scent" and there is an equal possibility according to Martin Grime that they did not. In no location was there any actual evidence found.

This is not a question of "dissing the dogs" whose role in assisting the police is an excellent one. It is a matter of respecting the view of the dog handler himself and his conclusions. As Martin Grime makes clear the dogs a re simply a tool for leading the police to areas where further investigation must be done.

There are questions about the further investigations which were undertaken (and in some cases it seems not undertaken: for example is there any record of the toy having been forensically analysed) but these do not reflect on the work of Martin Grime or his dogs whose contribution should be respected and whose report should be read carefully.

A good post Gilet. I can accept the possibility that the child or someone did die in  5A.
 Its a shame that some people can not accept the possibility, that the child did not die in 5A

[Mr Moderator]

Someone just pm'd me to claim the dog with Mr Grime in the intro is Keela.  Not the case, see below.

Eddie is slightly bigger than Keela and had much more white hair on his face.   Eddie is now deceased having succumbed to throat cancer.  Keela is still active along with 7-year-old dog Morse.




                 Victim recovery dog Eddie                                                Forensic dog Keela

[Anna]

Someone just pm'd me to claim the dog with Mr Grime in the intro is Keela.  Not the case, see below.

Eddie is slightly bigger than Keela and had much more white hair on his face.   Eddie is now deceased having succumbed to throat cancer.  Keela is still active along with new dog 

Correct first time. Eddie had a lot more white. A beautiful little dog too. Sad how he died 

[Carew]

I think that most people would agree that Martin Grime is far more expert on the subject of the work of dogs in police investigations than anyone on this forum (probably, unless there happens to be an expert lurking) and even more expert than the average police officer (no matter how senior that officer happens to be).

Therefore we should read with care what Martin Grime himself said in his report after the trip he made to PDL with Eddie and Keela. I am certain that the review team (later investigation team) from Scotland Yard have read with care what he had to say and I would expect that the PJ review team (later investigation team) from Oporto have also read with care what he had to say.

A few short quotes from his report will indicate that he does not state that there was any proof of death or even that there was any certainty of "cadaver scent" having been detected by his dogs.

Apt 5A
The first alert was given with the dogs head in the air without a positive area being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible evidence to be located only the remaining scent. The second alert was one where a definitive area was evident. The CSI dog was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely presence of human blood.

McCann Villa
The only alert indication given was when the dog located a pink cuddly toy in the villas lounge. The CSI dog did not alert to the toy when screened separately. It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent contamination. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

Clothing
The only alert indication was by the EVRD on clothing from one of the boxes. I am not in possession of the details as these were recorded by the PJ officers present.

McCann Car
This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and no human remains were found. The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the boot area. Forensic samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a forensic laboratory in the U.K. It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent' contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

General
The dog alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as evidence.


There is a possibility that the dogs alerted to "cadaver scent" and there is an equal possibility according to Martin Grime that they did not. In no location was there any actual evidence found.
That some people (and I would include the initial PJ reaction in this) take this report as definitive proof that a child died in that apartment indicates to me that those people have either not read the report carefully enough or have not done so with a genuinely open mind as to what conclusions can be drawn from the report.


This is not a question of "dissing the dogs" whose role in assisting the police is an excellent one. It is a matter of respecting the view of the dog handler himself and his conclusions. As Martin Grime makes clear the dogs a re simply a tool for leading the police to areas where further investigation must be done.

There are questions about the further investigations which were undertaken (and in some cases it seems not undertaken: for example is there any record of the toy having been forensically analysed) but these do not reflect on the work of Martin Grime or his dogs whose contribution should be respected and whose report should be read carefully.

I have not read any posts on here which state that Martin Grime`s reports are "definite proof that a child died in the apartment"

Where are these posts? Who are these people?

Again we get a lecture assuming that reports haven`t been read carefully enough and wrong conclusions are being drawn.........What conclusions?

What does seem to be the case is that SY have recently suggested Madeleine may not have been alive when she left the apartment.............This as separate from the "is alive or sadly dead" of previous comments.

It is not unreasonable to bring into the discussion the deployment of the dogs in relation to that.

[Carana]

Amaral's latest TV appearance:
Q: On what do you base that conviction?

“On many things. A series of indications, a series of contradictions, the witness statements of the parents, the witness statements of their friends, the traces that were collected with the assistance of special English dogs that never failed in the United Kingdom, they now work with the FBI. [b/]They never failed.[/b] At the time, we were introduced to several cases and situations, all of them they worked in and never failed. The possibility is that they failed in Portugal. Maybe it was the heat.”

What does Amaral mean by never failed?

[Serendipity]

Am working on a post specifically geared to the McCann, HDLG and the Shannon Matthews cases which I will post later but in the meantime here are just a few cases where cadaver dogs have proven to be very reliable

Cadaver evidence used in missing Amir Jennings case http://news.yahoo.com/zinah-jennings-trial-abandoning-toddler-son-amir-begins-171500988.html Mother was eventually found guilty and sentenced to 10 years in prison http://www.inquisitr.com/326838/amir-jennings-mom-zinah-jennings-found-guilty-sentenced-to-10-years-in-boys-disappearance/

Yet more cadaver dog alerts help put killers Wesley Shermantine and Loren Herzog behind bars http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/ar/t69512.htm

Cadaver Dogs Help Solve Cold Case. Two cadaver dogs alert in same place.... again. http://doglawreporter.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/cadaver-dogs-help-solve-cold-case.html http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20000411/NEWS01/304119986

In the Hadden clark case, Cadaver dog Dan alerted in Jan 1993 and Panzer alerted in Sept 95.  Hadden Clark is serving two life sentences for murder.

Two more murderers behind bars thanks to dogs trained by Martin Grime http://news.stv.tv/scotland/160953-black-bob-two-guilty-over-awful-orkney-murder/

and Adrian Prout rotting in a jail thanks to yet another EVRD http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/Cadaver-dog-sniffed-death-Prout-home/story-11860269-detail/story.html

And thanks to Buster Suzanne Piley's murderer is behind bars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY07z7A9zpw

Yet another case where if it was not for EVRD dogs, Megan Sharpton would not have been found http://www.tullahomanews.com/?p=7087

Canine expert testified regarding cadaver scent which was alerted to in the Bianca Jones case http://www.freep.com/article/20121004/NEWS01/310040204/Expert-testifies-that-cadaver-dog-gave-signals-about-toddler-in-defendant-s-car-house

Bianca's father D'Andre Lane was found guilty of her murder. Cadaver scent was detected by Morse trained by, wait for it, Martin Grime. Rex Stockham FBI Canine Program Manager testified to the court -'We've never had any case yet where the dog has responded and it's been shown to be incorrect'

Then we have the Tia Sharp case.  A dog alerted on the Wednesday but police did not put the dog in the attic as they struggle to walk on joists  http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/TIA-SHARP-Met-officers-missed-schoolgirl-s-body/story-17372278-detail/story.html  2 days later when dogs were brought in once again they again they alerted and the poor girl was eventually found. Human error prevented her being found earlier. Dogs did their job, humans failed.

Liittle April Jones.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22687971
EVRD/Cadaver dogs were first deployed in the case of little April Jones on 3rd October 2012. The decision to arrest Mark Bridger for murder followed the detection of forensic evidence on 3rd October 2012 which was sent away for analysis and the results of those forensic tests were received by police overnight on 5th October 2012.

Zahra Clare Baker who was 10 years old when she was murdered.  Her dismembered remains were found in 2010. http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/21/justice/north-carolina-slain-girl/

Cadaver dogs proved correct in Zapata case after he finally confesses http://host.madison.com/news/zapata-admits-killing-wife-gets-years-the-former-madison-man/article_3f7a7f4f-cb83-5869-b9c6-23532bc49a4e.html

[Carana]

When one responds using the quote option the original quote box isn't shown so when two or more quote boxes are used with responses to each as in buzz's post the original quotes disappear rendering the response unreadable.

Moral is not to use multi quotes.  As these comments are off topic I will remove them shortly.

Thank you. The quotes mentioned weren't just OT, they were incorrect and misleading.

[John]

Addressing the OP, I think that the only people who can objectively answer the question are the police forces / S&R services who deploy them.

One or two controlled studies have shown that dogs can continue to detect scents for a while after the secondary source material has been removed. On the other hand, at least one other study has shown the effect of handler bias on dogs' reactions.

If dogs were useless, then they wouldn't be used at all. Best practice analysis, adaptations in training methods, assessing the possibility of irrelevant alerts and the avoidance of potential handler bias are no doubt being improved all the time. Their cost effectiveness depends on it.

If their cost effectiveness (presumably not just financial) outweighs the cost of other means over time, then they will continue to be an asset. Expensive excavations wherever a dog happens to alert, or at least not proceeding to eliminate potential irrelevant / innocent alerts would decrease their ROI.

That's not the dogs' fault.

You can't blame the dogs because of the actions of a few idiotic senior investigating officers.

[Serendipity]

Someone just pm'd me to claim the dog with Mr Grime in the intro is Keela.  Not the case, see below.

Eddie is slightly bigger than Keela and had much more white hair on his face.   Eddie is now deceased having succumbed to throat cancer.  Keela is still active along with 7-year-old dog Morse.

The photo you used earlier is of Martin and Eddie so you are correct :)  Keela has the full brown mask over her nose whereas Eddie has a  full white stripe  :) 
 



CSI or forensic dog Keela alerts only to dried human blood and was trained exclusively for this purpose, this includes it's components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog WILL NOT alert to urine, saliva, semen, sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin UNLESS these are mixed with blood.   

EVRD or victim recovery dog Eddie was trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog recognized all or parts of a human cadaver. He was not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. Eddie is now deceased.


Both dogs could give an alert for dried blood from a live human being.  Both dogs alerting meant blood was detected and not a cadaver. The dogs were used in tandem. Eddie alerts then Keela checked. If Eddie alerted without Keela then cadaver scent had been detected.

The dogs were used together to differentiate between blood and an alert to scent of a dead body/body part.
 

[edited for continuity after photo changed]

[Cariad]

///snip///
There is a possibility that the dogs alerted to "cadaver scent" and there is an equal possibility according to Martin Grime that they did not. In no location was there any actual evidence found.

Equal possibility? So that would be 50/50 then? So someone may as well go in and toss a coin, heads cadaver sent, tails no sent?

Can you point out exactly were he says it's equally possible for me please? I must've failed to read it with due care.

I reiterate: I fully accept that these alerts do not prove anything, that they wouldn't stand up in a court of law, that without forensic corroboration, they're effectively useless to the legal system at the moment.

However, I firmly believe that this is because we have not yet developed any way testing the sensitivity of the canine nose.

One day we will have the science to back up the theory.

I find it a little strange that we happily trust in man made machines, but doubt something that evolution has been working on for millions of years.

[Carana]

Someone just pm'd me to claim the dog with Mr Grime in the intro is Keela.  Not the case, see below.

Eddie is slightly bigger than Keela and had much more white hair on his face.   Eddie is now deceased having succumbed to throat cancer.  Keela is still active along with 7-year-old dog Morse.

I was sad when someone on a McCann forum who was in contact with Grime announced that Eddie had passed away. I'm sure that he was much loved and had a great doggie life.

The dogs clearly had distinctive markings. The markings on the back were different. Edde had a longer snout, and Eddie had a broader amount of white on his head between the ears. I won't say why I remembered that detail. LOL

[Serendipity]

The dog was pulling on the leash when walking down the outside passage before he got near the front door.  I doubt he could smell cadaver odour in the bedroom on the other side of the appartment, in a closed building and behind a recessed front door.   
But he had just been let out of his cage, and he was a bit manic anyway.

You might want to watch this news item about the reactions of Buster the dog used in the Suzanne Pilley case

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY07z7A9zpw