Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Brietta on January 19, 2015, 09:03:43 AM
Title: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 19, 2015, 09:03:43 AM
An interesting item from Shining In Luz ... maybe we should put on our thinking caps once more and recap on what the FSS has to say about blood ... nothing much else going on at the moment, so as good a time as any ...
Maybe the total misunderstanding and misinterpretation of their reports was even worse than realised.
FSS v Eddie and Keela – Renault Scenic https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2014/12/21/fss-v-eddie-and-keela-renault-scenic/
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on January 19, 2015, 11:27:18 AM
An interesting item from Shining In Luz ... maybe we should put on our thinking caps once more and recap on what the FSS has to say about blood ... nothing much else going on at the moment, so as good a time as any ...
Maybe the total misunderstanding and misinterpretation of their reports was even worse than realised.
FSS v Eddie and Keela – Renault Scenic https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2014/12/21/fss-v-eddie-and-keela-renault-scenic/
I'm afraid SL's blog would have been much more credible if she/he had not claimed :
'Finding traces of Madeleine in apartment 5A proves little other than that Madeleine was in 5A. That makes 5A an incident scene only, not yet upgraded to accident scene or accorded the status of crime scene.'
This is of course nonsense.
But worse still this :
'The FSS has two main reports on file, and these are remarkably consistent.
The first is dated 6 Sep 2007. Gonçalo Amaral was removed from the investigation on 2 Aug 2007. I cannot comment on what might have been passed to the PJ before that, given that I was not privy to what went on.'
Must try harder.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: sadie on January 19, 2015, 12:11:33 PM
An interesting item from Shining In Luz ... maybe we should put on our thinking caps once more and recap on what the FSS has to say about blood ... nothing much else going on at the moment, so as good a time as any ...
Maybe the total misunderstanding and misinterpretation of their reports was even worse than realised.
FSS v Eddie and Keela – Renault Scenic https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2014/12/21/fss-v-eddie-and-keela-renault-scenic/
Phew ! What an excellent analysis!
Well analysed ShiningInLuz and well spotted Brietta
FSS v Eddie and Keela – Renault ScenicDecember 21, 2014 elcacraig1964 Apartment 5A, Eddie, FSS, Gerry McCann, Gonçalo Amaral, Keela, Madeleine McCann, Martin Grime, Renault Scenic
This leg of the story is fairly well known at the start. In a basement car park with 10 suspect cars in it, Eddie the cadaver dog alerted only at the Renault Scenic hired by the McCanns some 24 days after Madeleine disappeared.
Finding traces of Madeleine in apartment 5A proves little other than that Madeleine was in 5A. That makes 5A an incident scene only, not yet upgraded to accident scene or accorded the status of crime scene.
Finding credible evidence of Madeleine in the Renault Scenic changes the entire scenario. In that case, apartment 5A is an accident scene or a crime scene, and the McCanns are criminals. They concealed a body, retrieved that body, and finally disposed of it using the Scenic.
In the car park video, after running around for a while Eddie finally goes to the driver’s door of the Renault Scenic and gives an alert. This is attributed to odour leaking through the seal of the door. The chase is on.
It is explained that Eddie is not deployed further inside the Scenic, on the basis that if he can detect the odour of death through the door seal, the inside, by definition will be rife with the stench of death. It is time to deploy Keela.
The human-blood dog enters the Renault Scenic and two sources are found. A glove compartment is marked, and the luggage area in the rear is also marked.
Once again we have the smell of decomposition and Keela appears to be indicating it is human blood.
The next stages are a little hazier in rehashes of the story.
Looking in the glove-box, the key of the Renault Scenic is found. To work out what is causing the alerts, the police take the key and put it in a bucket of sand (kindly provided by local firemen).
Both dogs alert around this sand bucket, from which it is deduced that the key is the source of the decomposition and blood smell.
As it happens, this is weak logic. If something else in the glove compartment was the source, I would expect another object kept in the same area, namely the key, to pass the two-dogs test. As would a rental contract or a passport or any other object in the same confined space. Fortunately, this does not seem to be relevant to the Madeleine McCann case.
The police bagged and tagged various samples from the Scenic. The key, bits of plastic from where Keela alerted in the luggage area, many hairs, parts of human nails, and fibres, were all meticulously recorded and sent to the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham.
What did the FSS find? The bits outside the FSS v Eddie and Keela debate are interesting, but let me stick to the central battle.
The FSS has two main reports on file, and these are remarkably consistent.
The first is dated 6 Sep 2007. Gonçalo Amaral was removed from the investigation on 2 Aug 2007. I cannot comment on what might have been passed to the PJ before that, given that I was not privy to what went on.
The second is dated 18 Jun 2008 and is much more formal.
But here is what both appear to say.
The key fob had cellular material on it, and that appears to match Gerry McCann, though the FSS cannot be certain. Note the FSS did not say blood but cellular material.
The luggage compartment tests proved beyond the FSS’s capability to interpret the results. The one that has 15 out of Madeleine’s 19 markers is attributed to 3 or more people.
A preliminary report from the FSS on 4 Sep 2007 appears to support Gonçalo Amaral in his view that the British police suspected the McCanns. The email from the FSS focussed on 3 crucial places relating to Madeleine in 5A and in the Scenic. These are, the swab that appears to have come from where Eddie/Keela alerted in apartment 5A, which seems to match Madeleine. Another swab from 5A that is close by the first, but the FSS says is not Madeleine. Then there’s the sample from the rear of the Scenic, not the key.
Madeleine had 19 markers as she inherited one copy of her markers from both parents, cutting it down from 20 to 19 markers. The number of markers found in rear of the Scenic was 37.
Feel free to chew over the conundrum as to why 15 of Madeleine’s 19 markers were found in the luggage compartment of the Renault Scenic while with so many markers available, the other 4 were not.
The number of markers found was 37. 37-15 = 22, with each person contributing a maximum of 20 markers. You need at least another two people, and each of those needs to have DNA that is not common to Madeleine. The final report says at least 3 people contributed, while the preliminary report put it at 3 to 5.
In summary, Keela said blood on the key. The FSS said cellular material on the key, but Gerry’s, not Madeleine’s.
Keela said blood in the rear of the Scenic. The FSS found 3 contributors of DNA. Madeleine plus relatives, or Madeleine’s relatives alone (without Madeleine) would do the trick. The FSS did not say blood.
Why did Keela alert in the boot? If it is correct to say that Keela alerted only to human blood, as opposed to other types of blood, then it is necessary to have human blood in the boot. Since the FSS is happy that Gerry was the source for the material on the key, the most obvious solution would be that Gerry also bled in the boot.
The FSS did not state blood was found anywhere in the Renault Scenic. The reports mention DNA and cellular material but no tests to prove that blood was the source. Blood in the Renault Scenic is purely down to Keela.
I need to check the apartment 5A findings for blood. From memory, the Portuguese forensic team did not find blood, and the FSS did not find blood. Only Keela did and she does not constitute evidence in a court working under the laws of England and Wales.
If I am correct, what we have is no credible evidence of blood, that would pass a test in court. Just Eddie and Keela and Martin Grime
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: lordpookles on January 19, 2015, 01:03:11 PM
I like shining in luz blog. Seems there is an effort made to maintain a balanced view. I don't know why the point is being made 1 handler per dog though. It's not as if 2 dogs were deployed at the same time, so what is the difference?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on January 19, 2015, 01:05:45 PM
I like shining in luz blog. Seems there is an effort made to maintain a balanced view. I don't know why the point is being made 1 handler per dog though. It's not as if 2 dogs were deployed at the same time, so what is the difference?
It's the rules in any Police Force.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on January 19, 2015, 04:33:41 PM
They do indeed jassi and what lengths are gone to to prove Madeleine was not in the Scenic, a hypothesis which was at best unlikely. What they avoid like the plague, however, is explaining the cadaver scent alerted to by Eddie in 5a.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 19, 2015, 04:37:16 PM
They do indeed jassi and what lengths are gone to to prove Madeleine was not in the Scenic, a hypothesis which was at best unlikely. What they avoid like the plague, however, is explaining the cadaver scent alerted to by Eddie in 5a.
Read what Grime has to say...he doesn't even confirm that the alert was to cadaver
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Benice on January 19, 2015, 04:38:03 PM
They do indeed jassi and what lengths are gone to to prove Madeleine was not in the Scenic, a hypothesis which was at best unlikely. What they avoid like the plague, however, is explaining the cadaver scent alerted to by Eddie in 5a.
Not true Faith. Many people including myself have posted the various reasons why (according the Martin Grime) Eddie alerting anywhere - does not prove that a dead body had been in that place.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on January 19, 2015, 04:53:29 PM
Not true Faith. Many people including myself have posted the various reasons why (according the Martin Grime) Eddie alerting anywhere - does not prove that a dead body had been in that place.
It doesn't prove a dead body was in the apartment but it is indicative. If I remember Grime says Eddie had alerted to what he had been trained to alert ie cadaver scent however no evidential value..........
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Benice on January 19, 2015, 04:59:23 PM
It doesn't prove a dead body was in the apartment but it is indicative. If I remember Grime says Eddie had alerted to what he had been trained to alert ie cadaver scent however no evidential value..........
Yes I remember him saying that - and being very careful NOT to claim that Eddie had alerted to a cadaver. Unlike with Keela where IIRC he simply said she had alerted to blood - full stop.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 19, 2015, 05:28:02 PM
It doesn't prove a dead body was in the apartment but it is indicative. If I remember Grime says Eddie had alerted to what he had been trained to alert ie cadaver scent however no evidential value..........
grime has never said eddie alerted to cadaver scent...eddie is also trained to alert to blood
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ferryman on January 19, 2015, 05:30:45 PM
It doesn't prove a dead body was in the apartment but it is indicative. If I remember Grime says Eddie had alerted to what he had been trained to alert ie cadaver scent however no evidential value..........
Arrant twaddle ...
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on January 19, 2015, 10:54:14 PM
grime tells us that the dogs can detect samples so small that they cannot be detected scientifically......you need to read up on what Grime says so you can understand the alerts...Grime does not confirm any of the alerts ...read the files
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 20, 2015, 08:14:20 AM
grime tells us that the dogs can detect samples so small that they cannot be detected scientifically......you need to read up on what Grime says so you can understand the alerts...Grime does not confirm any of the alerts ...read the files
The dogs do tend to get you riled don't they.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Benice on January 20, 2015, 09:35:29 AM
IMO it's not the dogs who get people riled - it's the refusal by some folk to accept Martin Grime's statements about their abilities or his reasons why an alert by Eddie does not prove the presence of a dead body in the place where he alerted.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on January 20, 2015, 09:54:01 AM
IMO it's not the dogs who get people riled - it's the refusal by some folk to accept Martin Grime's statements about their abilities or his reasons why an alert by Eddie does not prove the presence of a dead body in the place where he alerted.
It does not prove it but, as I said before, it indicates there was, when a blood alert has been excluded, a body in situ at some point.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 20, 2015, 10:35:52 AM
IMO it's not the dogs who get people riled - it's the refusal by some folk to accept Martin Grime's statements about their abilities or his reasons why an alert by Eddie does not prove the presence of a dead body in the place where he alerted.
McCann's Apartment.
The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. (Mark Harrison)
The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. (Mark Harrison)
The same dead body scent was alerted by the EVRD on their clothes. No blood was alerted to by the CSI dog.
That is only ONE possibility of why Eddie alerted. There are several other reasons given by Martin Grime as to why Eddie would alert. People may choose to ignore them - but I can assure you a court would not. And neither do SY - who obviously have taken all the handlers comments on board - and not just selected one because it fits a certain agenda - which is what Amaral did.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on January 20, 2015, 10:58:38 AM
That is only ONE possibility of why Eddie alerted. There are several other reasons given by Martin Grime as to why Eddie would alert. People may choose to ignore them - but I can assure you a court would not. And neither do SY - who obviously have taken all the handlers comments on board - and not just selected one because it fits a certain agenda - which is what Amaral did.
So what does Martin Grime say the other reasons may be ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Benice on January 20, 2015, 11:03:13 AM
So what does Martin Grime say the other reasons may be ?
Oh FGS Faith - it's been done to death over and over again on this forum. I suggest you look back if you want to know - or alternatively read Martin Grimes statements - the information is all in there.
(Anyway I must go out now. )
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 20, 2015, 11:05:03 AM
IMO it's not the dogs who get people riled - it's the refusal by some folk to accept Martin Grime's statements about their abilities or his reasons why an alert by Eddie does not prove the presence of a dead body in the place where he alerted.
Now where does Martin Grime state that the dogs did not possibly alert to a body ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on January 20, 2015, 11:05:56 AM
Oh FGS Faith - it's been done to death over and over again on this forum. I suggest you look back if you want to know - or alternatively read Martin Grimes statements - the information is all in there.
(Anyway I must go out now. )
Of course you must ! I'll look forward to furthering our conversation later.
Have a lovely day.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 20, 2015, 05:37:04 PM
Now where does Martin Grime state that the dogs did alert to a body?
Yeah!
Martin (more or less! and if you discount irresponsible and unwarranted "opinions" about cadaver scent (and the like!) spoke the right language in his reports.
It was the way he handled dogs and the way he marshalled material for inspections that raised eyebrows.
Also the venues he (not Mark Harrison) chose for inspections: places Madeleine never lived in nor went near.
Why?
In particular, there is no clear explanation from the files of the inspection in the gym; only the one in Amaral's book (which I believe, almost as much as I believe in Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy) ...
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 20, 2015, 06:24:41 PM
Martin (more or less! and if you discount irresponsible and unwarranted "opinions" about cadaver scent (and the like!) spoke the right language in his reports.
It was the way he handled dogs and the way he marshalled material for inspections that raised eyebrows.
Also the venues he (not Mark Harrison) chose for inspections: places Madeleine never lived in nor went near.
Why?
In particular, there is no clear explanation from the files of the inspection in the gym; only the one in Amaral's book (which I believe, almost as much as I believe in Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy) ...
The raising eyebrows is from mccann supporters.
Then we come to the real fairy story, where there isn't a smitten of evidence that would stick in court.
Unless we see another repeat of the Dando case.
Then we have this as well..............
' Operation Grange being conducted by a 'team consisting of homicide detectives'. '
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 20, 2015, 07:26:37 PM
It does not prove it but, as I said before, it indicates there was, when a blood alert has been excluded, a body in situ at some point.
nope....
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: lordpookles on January 20, 2015, 09:16:23 PM
'Suggestive' is the word Grime used I believe, but without corroborating evidence yada yada yada... everyone imo seems to ignore the fact that just because a dead body may have been in the apartment it does not mean the McCanns did it... I assume investigative authorities may consider this angle, but whether it is viable - no idea.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 20, 2015, 09:19:36 PM
'Suggestive' is the word Grime used I believe, but without corroborating evidence yada yada yada... everyone imo seems to ignore the fact that just because a dead body may have been in the apartment it does not mean the McCanns did it... I assume investigative authorities may consider this angle, but whether it is viable - no idea.
Some people seem to assume so hence the concern about the dogs.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 20, 2015, 09:25:02 PM
'Suggestive' is the word Grime used I believe, but without corroborating evidence yada yada yada... everyone imo seems to ignore the fact that just because a dead body may have been in the apartment it does not mean the McCanns did it... I assume investigative authorities may consider this angle, but whether it is viable - no idea.
The McCanns were the ones trying to discredit the dogs and the posse followed their leader. Gerry is still obsessed by them going from his last court appearance. These dogs are trained daily and have regular tests so they can perform their job properly and to the highest levels. Grime knows what his dogs alerted to but as you correctly say corroborating evidence is required.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: lordpookles on January 20, 2015, 09:35:32 PM
Yep these particular dogs were supposed to be the best at the time if I'm not mistaken. Why did the family try to discredit the dogs? Instinctual self-defence? Or reluctance to give up hope for Madeleine? Afterall, cadaver odour is transferable and from some reports I've read 10 minutes is long enough for the odour to permeate the area where the body lay. Putting aside our own particular biases and the parents wotdunnit theory for now. Could SY have been digging in the area, because they believe she may have died in the apartment and perhaps the burglar scenario or some theory in that spectrum makes some sense here?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 20, 2015, 09:45:50 PM
Yep these particular dogs were supposed to be the best at the time if I'm not mistaken. Why did the family try to discredit the dogs? Instinctual self-defence? Afterall, cadaver odour is transferable and from some reports I've read 10 minutes is long enough for the odour to permeate the area where the body lay. Putting aside our own particular biases and the parents wotdunnit theory for now. Could SY have been digging in the area, because they believe she may have died in the apartment and perhaps the burglar scenario or some theory in that spectrum makes some sense here?
It's very unusual to try and discredit them. They knew the possibility that she was dead so why they attacked the evidence pointing to that theory is bewildering. Surely you would want to know more instead of attacking them? But turning to the Zapata case turned out to be a bad move *&*%£
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on January 20, 2015, 09:51:13 PM
To my mind they were not going to allow the reaction of the dogs to imply that Madeleine was dead, and thereby cause the flow of money to dry up.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 20, 2015, 09:55:49 PM
Yep these particular dogs were supposed to be the best at the time if I'm not mistaken. Why did the family try to discredit the dogs? Instinctual self-defence? Or reluctance to give up hope for Madeleine? Afterall, cadaver odour is transferable and from some reports I've read 10 minutes is long enough for the odour to permeate the area where the body lay. Putting aside our own particular biases and the parents wotdunnit theory for now. Could SY have been digging in the area, because they believe she may have died in the apartment and perhaps the burglar scenario or some theory in that spectrum makes some sense here?
The family needed to get assurance and advice on the evidential reliability of the dogs. After all, it seems that it was on the dogs uncorroborated evidence that they were made arquido. They knew that they had nothing to do with her disappearance and answers were needed. They must have been very frightened, in a strange country with alien laws and language.
I believe SC were doing, what had to be done to prove or eliminate, by searching for a link to Maddie's disappearance, which could be in the form of her belongings or something of a more sinister nature.
Although nothing has been found as yet, does not mean that it doesn't exist, unless of course she was transported away from the area by the culprit.
The dogs alerts could have been for various reasons, but because they did alert, there will always be people who believe that a body had to have been present and also believe that it had to be Maddie's.
I am sure when you have had a good read around the forum, you will come to your own beliefs eventually.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on January 20, 2015, 10:09:38 PM
The implications surrounding the dogs was that they had somehow killed Madeleine. So If they knew that they hadn't done any such thing, then of course they would know that the dog findings were unreliable.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 20, 2015, 10:21:14 PM
To my mind they were not going to allow the reaction of the dogs to imply that Madeleine was dead, and thereby cause the flow of money to dry up.
Is it really your view that the McCanns are so despicably money-grabbing that money is more important to them than finding out what happened to their daughter?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on January 20, 2015, 10:29:03 PM
To my mind they were not going to allow the reaction of the dogs to imply that Madeleine was dead, and thereby cause the flow of money to dry up.
Cadaver odour takes around one and a half to two hours to develop. The McCanns left the apartment at 8.30-8.45. Madeleine disappeared before 10pm. The maths really isn't difficult.
If the dogs are correct Madeleine must have been dead before her parents left the apartment and it is for that fact alone that the dogs credibility has to be undermined.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 20, 2015, 10:58:40 PM
Cadaver odour takes around one and a half to two hours to develop. The McCanns left the apartment at 8.30-8.45. Madeleine disappeared before 10pm. The maths really isn't difficult.
If the dogs are correct Madeleine must have been dead before her parents left the apartment and it is for that fact alone that the dogs credibility has to be undermined.
It would have been very interesting to see the results of the same examinations carried out by US-trained dogs rather than a UK dog trained on pig cadaver.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: lordpookles on January 20, 2015, 11:05:57 PM
The family needed to get assurance and advice on the evidential reliability of the dogs. After all, it seems that it was on the dogs uncorroborated evidence that they were made arquido. They knew that they had nothing to do with her disappearance and answers were needed. They must have been very frightened, in a strange country with alien laws and language.
I believe SC were doing, what had to be done to prove or eliminate, by searching for a link to Maddie's disappearance, which could be in the form of her belongings or something of a more sinister nature.
Although nothing has been found as yet, does not mean that it doesn't exist, unless of course she was transported away from the area by the culprit.
The dogs alerts could have been for various reasons, but because they did alert, there will always be people who believe that a body had to have been present and also believe that it had to be Maddie's.
I am sure when you have had a good read around the forum, you will come to your own beliefs eventually.
Honestly I doubt I will ever have a solid belief on the available information. I do have a bias for sure(in as much if I was asked to lay a bet I know what I would bet on with a big deal of uncertainty) which I try not to show because I'm more interested in many cases in playing devils advocate as testing other people's views can be quite illuminating. Also, if I start dogmatically spouting off my own theories here I just feel I will become involuntarily fixed in my views, also it feels wrong plus I'm trying to be somewhat sensitive. Anyway, for instance you make good points regarding the reaction to the dogs but what would be their reaction if they had killed Madeleine?
I've read a lot of what is said on the forum and there is obviously reams of it but the main points I feel I have researched enough given my interest. The dogs will always be a big factor as there is so little information available - we have a few sightings of suspicious characters around the area but other then that she just seems to have vanished. A big factor for me and the McCanns did it theory is the incongruous nature of the logistics concerning that night and the car hired 2 weeks later. Although anything is possible. There is a world in which the McCanns are guilty and a world in which they are innocent. Which one is more likely??
Maybe you are correct regarding the SY digging. The need to eliminate certain theories or indeed just to dig in probable areas given likely theories in tandem with their distrust of the Portuguese search perhaps. Personally I think it likely it was due to the dog alerts and maybe a theory of an abductor on foot... Why else would you discard belongings or a body in that area if you had a car? Also given the significance attached to the Smith sighting easy to imagine they could be connected...
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on January 20, 2015, 11:08:32 PM
It would have been very interesting to see the results of the same examinations carried out by US-trained dogs rather than a UK dog trained on pig cadaver.
Eddie was trained in the US as well as the UK.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 20, 2015, 11:16:02 PM
The US dogs are not trained on pig cadaver. Eddie was trained on both. How did he distinguish between the two? The PJ were aware of exactly how almost all UK dogs were trained prior to them arriving in August.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on January 20, 2015, 11:21:55 PM
The US dogs are not trained on pig cadaver. Eddie was trained on both. How did he distinguish between the two? The PJ were aware of exactly how almost all UK dogs were trained prior to them arriving in August.
Sorry misty I'm really not seeing your point.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Anna on January 20, 2015, 11:24:00 PM
Honestly I doubt I will ever have a solid belief on the available information. I do have a bias for sure(in as much if I was asked to lay a bet I know what I would bet on with a big deal of uncertainty) which I try not to show because I'm more interested in many cases in playing devils advocate as testing other people's views can be quite illuminating. Also, if I start dogmatically spouting off my own theories here I just feel I will become involuntarily fixed in my views, also it feels wrong plus I'm trying to be somewhat sensitive. Anyway, for instance you make good points regarding the reaction to the dogs but what would be their reaction if they had killed Madeleine?
I've read a lot of what is said on the forum and there is obviously reams of it but the main points I feel I have researched enough given my interest. The dogs will always be a big factor as there is so little information available - we have a few sightings of suspicious characters around the area but other then that she just seems to have vanished. A big factor for me and the McCanns did it theory is the incongruous nature of the logistics concerning that night and the car hired 2 weeks later. Although anything is possible. There is a world in which the McCanns are guilty and a world in which they are innocent. Which one is more likely??
Maybe you are correct regarding the SY digging. The need to eliminate certain theories or indeed just to dig in probable areas given likely theories in tandem with their distrust of the Portuguese search perhaps. Personally I think it likely it was due to the dog alerts and maybe a theory of an abductor on foot... Why else would you discard belongings or a body in that area if you had a car? Also given the significance attached to the Smith sighting easy to imagine they could be connected...
Thank you, for your honest answer, LP. I respect your right of opinion and hope that you will come to the conclusion, that suits the evidence and your beliefs. I look forward to your posts, when you have come to a final decision. In the meantime your questions are more than welcome and we will answer to the best of our knowledge
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 20, 2015, 11:30:48 PM
The point I am trying to make is that only dogs trained solely on human remains should have been deployed, which would have made the results far more difficult to counter. Keela, you remember, was also an "experiment", not trained in the standard manner.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 20, 2015, 11:55:00 PM
The point I am trying to make is that only dogs trained solely on human remains should have been deployed, which would have made the results far more difficult to counter. Keela, you remember, was also an "experiment", not trained in the standard manner.
Eddie alerted to Harron's body that lay in the bedroom for one hour. Forensics found nothing in the bedroom and no pigs went missing.
Northern Ireland, UK A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland. The search of suspects 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger foot well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victims' DNA. The enquiry then concentrated its efforts on the suspect and the E.V.R.D. located the body of the woman in a river bank deposition site. Further searches identified a location where the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offenders empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 21, 2015, 12:41:32 AM
Eddie alerted to Harron's body that lay in the bedroom for one hour. Forensics found nothing in the bedroom and no pigs went missing.
Northern Ireland, UK A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland. The search of suspects 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger foot well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victims' DNA. The enquiry then concentrated its efforts on the suspect and the E.V.R.D. located the body of the woman in a river bank deposition site. Further searches identified a location where the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offenders empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.
Battered to death but no forensics? I think the pigs must have been in flight at the time.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on January 21, 2015, 12:59:32 AM
The point I am trying to make is that only dogs trained solely on human remains should have been deployed, which would have made the results far more difficult to counter.
Why ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: sadie on January 21, 2015, 01:29:40 AM
The US dogs are not trained on pig cadaver. Eddie was trained on both. How did he distinguish between the two? The PJ were aware of exactly how almost all UK dogs were trained prior to them arriving in August.
How interesting.
So Eddie would have alerted to a joint of pork, or to a crumb of pork sandwich? .... even bacon?
Eddies olfactory senses are exquisitely honed, I believe. Would he have alerted to the scent from a person who had been dealing with pork, (either raw or cooked) tranferred by touch to some other object?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lyall on January 21, 2015, 01:58:04 AM
Maybe smokey bacon crisps too Sadie 8)-)))
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 21, 2015, 02:04:00 AM
Victim recovery dogs (VRDs) are also known as body or cadaver dogs. They are used in many countries to assist the police in locating concealed human remains. In the UK, police dogs are used that are trained and licensed to a national standard.
Pig carcasses are used to train the dogs in the UK as it is not legal to use human cadavers. This is an established training method and enables the dogs to successfully detect human remains in operational case work.
Enhanced training to produce a EVRD. The training of a VRD provides an alert response using Ivan Pavlov's theory of producing a conditioned reflex, in this case barking, to the presence of detected decomposing human/pig flesh, bone, body fluid and blood. The dog will bark, whether or not it is able to get to the source of the scent. The benefit of this reflex is that the dog will respond whenever the target scent is present. This enables the dog to be used in an investigative role, assisting experts in other fields, such as, geophysics
Cadaver odour takes around one and a half to two hours to develop. The McCanns left the apartment at 8.30-8.45. Madeleine disappeared before 10pm. The maths really isn't difficult.
If the dogs are correct Madeleine must have been dead before her parents left the apartment and it is for that fact alone that the dogs credibility has to be undermined.
are you suggesting the dogs might be wrong!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 21, 2015, 09:09:27 AM
So Eddie would have alerted to a joint of pork, or to a crumb of pork sandwich? .... even bacon?
Eddies olfactory senses are exquisitely honed, I believe. Would he have alerted to the scent from a person who had been dealing with pork, (either raw or cooked) tranferred by touch to some other object?
It's not pork its pig.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 21, 2015, 10:46:21 AM
So Eddie would have alerted to a joint of pork, or to a crumb of pork sandwich? .... even bacon?
Eddies olfactory senses are exquisitely honed, I believe. Would he have alerted to the scent from a person who had been dealing with pork, (either raw or cooked) tranferred by touch to some other object?
Go ask Adrian Prout if he had a pork sandwich on his sofa?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ferryman on January 21, 2015, 10:52:29 AM
Go ask Adrian Prout if he had a pork sandwich on his sofa?
It's doubtful he had one in the shooting lodge, where Prout murdered Kate ...
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: lordpookles on January 21, 2015, 10:55:48 AM
These dogs are not supposed to alert to bacon sandwiches! I can point you to a Q&A with a dog handler when I have time who categorically states this is not the case.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Benice on January 21, 2015, 11:06:28 AM
These dogs are not supposed to alert to bacon sandwiches! I can point you to a Q&A with a dog handler when I have time who categorically states this is not the case.
I believe Eddie was trained not to alert to cooked meat including burgers, sausages or bacon sandwiches etc. However IIRC it is also claimed that Eddie alerted to the remains of a piece of pork which had been soaked in petrol and then set alight. Wouldn't that qualify as 'cooked' meat?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on January 21, 2015, 11:12:36 AM
These dogs are not supposed to alert to bacon sandwiches! I can point you to a Q&A with a dog handler when I have time who categorically states this is not the case.
You have watched the Eddie videos?
Then you will have watched Eddie retrieve a food item from a kitchen waste bin in one of the apartments ... whether or not that was a bacon sandwich ... it was an action outwith the parameters of his training.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 21, 2015, 12:01:20 PM
Well we are told that cadavar dogs alert to human bodies after they have been badly burnt in fires. They are tasked with finding the bodies, I believe.
Why shouldn't Eddie alert to Pork in its cooked state? I believe he would.
Will be interesting to hear what Lord P comes up with.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 21, 2015, 07:41:44 PM
Well we are told that cadavar dogs alert to human bodies after they have been badly burnt in fires. They are tasked with finding the bodies, I believe.
Why shouldn't Eddie alert to Pork in its cooked state? I believe he would.
Will be interesting to hear what Lord P comes up with.
For goodness sadie.
I thought you had some basic training in science.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: sadie on January 21, 2015, 10:05:51 PM
Quote from: sadie on Today at 07:32:18 PM
Quote
Well we are told that cadavar dogs alert to human bodies after they have been badly burnt in fires. They are tasked with finding the bodies, I believe.
Why shouldn't Eddie alert to Pork in its cooked state? I believe he would.
Will be interesting to hear what Lord P comes up with.
Quote from: stephen25000 on Today at 07:41:44 PM
Quote
For goodness sadie.
I thought you had some basic training in science.
Would you care to point out what I have said that is wrong?
Or are you just picking on everything that I say, per usual?
You avoided answering that question, Would you care to point out what I said that was wrong? I am waiting Stephen
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 21, 2015, 10:11:48 PM
As you well know, I was comparing burnt, sadly roasted, human flesh to roasted cooked pig =Pork
If Eddie alerts to human flesh including when roasted / burnt then it seems logical that he will also alert to roasted/cooked pig = pork.
Access to pork is very common ... and I asked if a pork or bacon sandwich could create a situation that Eddie would alert to.
I'm not sure that the distinction is between cooked and raw.
According to Grime, Eddie wouldn't react to foodstuffs "designed for human consumption" and therefore wouldn't be fazed by sniffing out a restaurant, for example.
However, there is a semantic argument over what is meant by "designed".
1. The processes used by slaughterhouses? (That doesn't make much sense to me, as the dogs don't need the entire carcass to react.)
Or
2. Fit for human consumption? (A rotting bit of pork that had been hanging around for weeks, cooked or not, is hardly fit / designed for human consumption.)
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 22, 2015, 12:00:00 PM
I'm not sure that the distinction is between cooked and raw.
According to Grime, Eddie wouldn't react to foodstuffs "designed for human consumption" and therefore wouldn't be fazed by sniffing out a restaurant, for example.
However, there is a semantic argument over what is meant by "designed".
1. The processes used by slaughterhouses? (That doesn't make much sense to me, as the dogs don't need the entire carcass to react.)
Or
2. Fit for human consumption? (A rotting bit of pork that had been hanging around for weeks, cooked or not, is hardly fit / designed for human consumption.)
"There were no alert indications from the remaining properties. I did however see the dog search in the kitchen waste bins. These contained meat foodstuffs including pork and did not result in any false alert response. "
Would all the speculation about conscious or unconscious cuing by the handler include " reverse cuing" then?
I mean...........how would a handler unconsciously or otherwise prevent the dog from alerting incessantly, right, left and centre to any site in which pork products have been present ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 22, 2015, 12:26:29 PM
The point you are not getting is that picking up tennis balls to play with ... picking up soft toys to play with ... picking up food detritus for whatever ... is way ... way ... outwith the parameters of his training.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: lordpookles on January 22, 2015, 12:39:46 PM
Guys you are nitpicking too much - bacon sandwiches plus deviating from the task at hand seems desperate though I concede you certainly have valid points which should be addressed. Yet, why is no one theorisng what these alerts could mean when we hypothetically consider the alerts were indeed to a cadaver? Or is this just a point scoring competition in our favourite religion?. The point is imo - both dogs gave multiple alerts. In the case of the multiple cadaver alerts we simply do not know exactly what Eddie alerted to but it is suggestive of cadaver odour(I fully concede the alerts may be absouloutely meaningless). Why don't we consider what that may mean? No one ever seems to want to other then sceptics for obvious reasons I guess. Maybe we might get a little closer to the truth if we do rather then letting that particular void being filled with just sceptic conclusions? After all its simply an exploration of information available... Finally do believers here think if the dog alerts were genuine it can only mean the McCanns are responsible? I genuinely have an open mind here regarding the alerts in general...
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on January 22, 2015, 12:57:36 PM
I suspect, but I do not actually know, that any Pig "Meat" used in dog Training would come from uneviscerated pig. That means ungutted and left to lie to develop a cadaver scent, as would a dead human cadaver.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 22, 2015, 01:52:02 PM
The fact is the dogs are regularly tested. If they gave false alerts they would be no longer doing the job. FBI wouldn't use dogs that can't perform their job correctly. They don't pay them high costs for being wrong. Eddie's record speaks for itself. He alerted to cadaver odour but corroborating evidence is required.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 22, 2015, 02:18:14 PM
The fact is the dogs are regularly tested. If they gave false alerts they would be no longer doing the job. FBI wouldn't use dogs that can't perform their job correctly. They don't pay them high costs for being wrong. Eddie's record speaks for itself. He alerted to cadaver odour but corroborating evidence is required.
Who tested Eddie? The UK - who don't use human remains - or the US/another facility which does use human remains? How many places that Eddie indicated were corroborating forensics pertaining to Madeleine found?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 22, 2015, 03:04:18 PM
Who tested Eddie? The UK - who don't use human remains - or the US/another facility which does use human remains? How many places that Eddie indicated were corroborating forensics pertaining to Madeleine found?
Eddie was seven when he worked in PDL and his frenetic behaviour is something which I find quite extreme and bizarre.
One thing which is absolutely certain is that no corroborating forensics were recovered from anywhere that Eddie Eddie had been in PDL. That includes the passageway outside apartment 5a where he was overcome by excitement and eagerness to get access to the building ... really bizarre behaviour.
We are all familiar with the tongue hanging out and panting which dominates the sound track of the videos; to those of us familiar with a domestic animal that response indicates over excitement or over heating.
**snip Dog panting is normal after a play session, exposure to a stressful situation, anxiety or in dealing with pain. There are other reasons they could be panting from and these need your prompt attention. Any of the following…
Heat Stroke – will cause panting in dogs to an excessive degree. If a dog is in a hot car or running around for a long time in hot weather, their body temperature can rise to over 104 degrees Fahrenheit and that is dangerous. This can lead to brain damage and death. Heat stroke can also be recognized by excessive drooling, deep red gums and tongue, weakness, and vomiting. You need to cool your dog off quickly.
Before his entry to apartment 5a ... Eddie had been cooped up in a van in a Portuguese summer.
**snip A variety of factors, however, mediate the strength of the death odor and how quickly it dissipates. Temperature, humidity, the softness or hardness of the ground, and the amount of degrading matter all play a role, as does the physiology of the dog. (A heavily panting pooch can’t scent very well.)
**snip “Some dogs are picking up on skeletonized remains that are two feet deep,” Jacobi said. “We’re talking about locating one human vertebrae in a forest about 100 by 75 yards. That’s a huge area, and that’s amazing.” The initial research also indicated allowing dogs to rest in an air-conditioned setting prior to a trial improved the results. A panting dog is a dog that is not sniffing, Jacobi said.
The fondness Eddie displayed for lifting items in his mouth and throwing them, shaking them and on occasion playing with them ... is very probably an indication that Eddie was well past his sell by date as a VRD by the time he worked in PDL and should have been retired.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 22, 2015, 03:08:20 PM
Who tested Eddie? The UK - who don't use human remains - or the US/another facility which does use human remains? How many places that Eddie indicated were corroborating forensics pertaining to Madeleine found?
There was a police accreditation scheme in place for dogs and handlers in the UK, Misty. It certainly did not involve using human remains in training.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on January 22, 2015, 03:10:24 PM
If it was an accreditation scheme, them it must have been deemed acceptable procedure
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 22, 2015, 03:22:45 PM
Who tested Eddie? The UK - who don't use human remains - or the US/another facility which does use human remains? How many places that Eddie indicated were corroborating forensics pertaining to Madeleine found?
Grime's dogs got top marks at FBI body farm. Why do you think they employed him? New forensics next.
"U.K., A.C.P.O. licensed and accredited cadaver dogs are trained and licensed on the basis of the relevant section of the Police Dog Training and Care manual. This involves the training of G.P. (General Purpose) dogs to alert to the presence of surface deposition and sub-surface deposition to approximately 2 feet. The dogs are deployed on long lines to search an area in large numbers... Both dogs and I are licensed as two separate working teams. We are independently tested and licensed annually, normally at six monthly intervals as a 'rolling' programme to ensure best practice is maintained. They are tested to units of assessment prepared as a stand-alone system as these dogs are unique." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2011/201103UOPDogsMoG1.1.pdf The Police Dog guidance indicates all the criteria that, if not fulfilled, lead to suppression of the license. It's not only the dog's ability to react correctly to human remains and only to that, it's also obedience, etc. The basic question is "Did the team safely and successfully complete the task ?" There are quite a few accidents with police dogs (innocent persons bitten...), hence the "safely" as well as in the case of explosives (what if a positive is missed by the dog ?).
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 22, 2015, 03:22:50 PM
If it was an accreditation scheme, them it must have been deemed acceptable procedure
LOL ... of course it was and is ... but the point of such accreditation is that both dog and handler must have the appropriate up to date accreditation ... just a bit like your gas fitter ... no hard copy gas certificate ... no ability to connect you to the mains although having the knowledge and the skills to do so.
I'm sure you will manage a further non sequitur, if you do, provide a cite with it.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2015, 03:29:44 PM
I suspect, but I do not actually know, that any Pig "Meat" used in dog Training would come from uneviscerated pig. That means ungutted and left to lie to develop a cadaver scent, as would a dead human cadaver.
They no doubt do use whole dead piglets, but it wouldn't make sense to solely train them that way, IMO. Different body parts decompose at different rates and present different "bouquets" (and even these evolve over time). If a dog could only detect a whole cadaver, it wouldn't be much use in a murder investigation involving a chopped-up body discarded in several locations, for example.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on January 22, 2015, 03:30:55 PM
LOL ... of course it was and is ... but the point of such accreditation is that both dog and handler must have the appropriate up to date accreditation ... just a bit like your gas fitter ... no hard copy gas certificate ... no ability to connect you to the mains although having the knowledge and the skills to do so.
I'm sure you will manage a further non sequitur, if you do, provide a cite with it.
Are you saying that the dogs weren't accredited to a satisfactory standard?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 22, 2015, 03:50:50 PM
They no doubt do use whole dead piglets, but it wouldn't make sense to solely train them that way, IMO. Different body parts decompose at different rates and present different "bouquets" (and even these evolve over time). If a dog could only detect a whole cadaver, it wouldn't be much use in a murder investigation involving a chopped-up body discarded in several locations, for example.
There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that dogs' noses are probably among the most sophisticated sniffing instrument not known to science.
We all know they work ... science can't give a definitive answer as to how they work and science can't tell us what information the dog is taking in through the nose ... but they are working on it.
There is also the question of reliability to be addressed with some dogs performing well under test circumstances and others not so well ... so until results can be consistent and capable of replication to the highest scientific standard ... an indication will remain just that.
**snip
It would be interesting to conduct a study with a lot of dogs and multiple target scents, with lots of samples for training and, where possible, a real test in the end, with real cows, people, mould etc.
Surprisingly, there are relatively few peer-reviewed scientific studies on the training and use of detection dogs.
Clearly, dogs are used very successfully in several fields without the performance (or publication) of scientific studies.
However, it would be desirable for more rigorous studies to be carried out, particularly on training methods.
In the future, fuller understanding of the canine olfactory sense may mean electronic noses can be created to detect the identity of humans or detect cancer as sensitively as dogs, but even more reliably.
Are you saying that the dogs weren't accredited to a satisfactory standard?
That seems to be the suggestion. One presumes if there is a minimum required standard there will be a record of handlers and dogs who have achieved the standard and when the next re-certification is due. Is there evidence that if this a requirement it was not complied with?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 22, 2015, 03:53:43 PM
Are you saying that the dogs weren't accredited to a satisfactory standard?
Tiresome ... but true to form you never disappoint ... try to come back sometime with a post containing material worth posting or even that merits an answer.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 22, 2015, 03:55:19 PM
That seems to be the suggestion. One presumes if there is a minimum required standard there will be a record of handlers and dogs who have achieved the standard and when the next re-certification is due. Is there evidence that if this a requirement it was not complied with?
Is there? Do tell.
Google is quite a good search engine I am told if you do not have the information to hand.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on January 22, 2015, 03:57:37 PM
Tiresome ... but true to form you never disappoint ... try to come back sometime with a post containing material worth posting or even that merits an answer.
My role to to question - clearly something you don't like.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Benice on January 22, 2015, 04:16:47 PM
Are you saying that the dogs weren't accredited to a satisfactory standard?
It would seem that there were concerns over the training and monitoring of sniffer dogs in general - during Eddie and Keela's time with the police force.
Quote from Skye.
"Police sniffer dogs used to find missing people and dead bodies "urgently" need better training and monitoring, according to an official report.
The Government's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) said specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence. The NPIA reviewed the use of the specialist sniffer dogs two years ago, but its report has only now surfaced following a request by Sky News. "There is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done," the report states. "Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers or record keeping of the success rate they achieve."
The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry". "There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.
The review uses a kidnap investigation to highlight how dogs have tied up valuable police time. The animals detected human remains in old furniture that had been bought from houses where the owner had died. The use of victim recovery, or cadaver dogs, has proved to be controversial in a number of high-profile cases in recent years. A South Yorkshire Police spaniel called Eddie was said to have sniffed out the "scent of death" at the Haut de la Garenne children's home in Jersey and the apartment from which Madeleine McCann disappeared in Portugal. But in both cases nothing more was found and South Yorkshire Police say Eddie is no longer working with them.
Sniffer dogs hindered the police probe into Shannon Matthew's disappearance
Victim recovery dogs from four different police forces were used during searches for kidnapped schoolgirl Shannon Matthews in Dewsbury in West Yorkshire in 2008. The dogs found evidence of dead bodies, but officers later discovered the corpses were nothing to do with her disappearance. "The properties searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died," according to the NPIA report.
"This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."
The Association of Chief Police Officers told Sky News it was consulting individual police forces and hoped to have national training standards for the dogs later this year. "
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: DCI on January 22, 2015, 04:25:19 PM
Are you saying that the dogs weren't accredited to a satisfactory standard?
South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business, had failed to keep up the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) licence that certified Eddie as a police 'cadaver dog
Grime did have a second sniffer dog, Keela, but its licence expired a fortnight after they arrived in Jersey. ACPO rules governing UK police dogs state: 'Dog and handler teams that fail to remain in-licence are deemed "not competent".'
Grime admitted to The Mail on Sunday that the dog's licence had lapsed. He said: 'After I retired, my dogs were tested according to my own standards which are more stringent than ACPO's. But Jersey is not in the UK, so they were in their rights to employ whoever they wanted.' He said his fees were 'all agreed' and that he had given Jersey a 'discount'.
South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business, had failed to keep up the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) licence that certified Eddie as a police 'cadaver dog
Grime did have a second sniffer dog, Keela, but its licence expired a fortnight after they arrived in Jersey. ACPO rules governing UK police dogs state: 'Dog and handler teams that fail to remain in-licence are deemed "not competent".'
Grime admitted to The Mail on Sunday that the dog's licence had lapsed. He said: 'After I retired, my dogs were tested according to my own standards which are more stringent than ACPO's. But Jersey is not in the UK, so they were in their rights to employ whoever they wanted.' He said his fees were 'all agreed' and that he had given Jersey a 'discount'.
Grime's dogs got top marks at FBI body farm. Why do you think they employed him? New forensics next.
"U.K., A.C.P.O. licensed and accredited cadaver dogs are trained and licensed on the basis of the relevant section of the Police Dog Training and Care manual. This involves the training of G.P. (General Purpose) dogs to alert to the presence of surface deposition and sub-surface deposition to approximately 2 feet. The dogs are deployed on long lines to search an area in large numbers... Both dogs and I are licensed as two separate working teams. We are independently tested and licensed annually, normally at six monthly intervals as a 'rolling' programme to ensure best practice is maintained. They are tested to units of assessment prepared as a stand-alone system as these dogs are unique." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2011/201103UOPDogsMoG1.1.pdf The Police Dog guidance indicates all the criteria that, if not fulfilled, lead to suppression of the license. It's not only the dog's ability to react correctly to human remains and only to that, it's also obedience, etc. The basic question is "Did the team safely and successfully complete the task ?" There are quite a few accidents with police dogs (innocent persons bitten...), hence the "safely" as well as in the case of explosives (what if a positive is missed by the dog ?).
So, Grime's dogs are unique & are tested in a stand-alone system? It's such a pity FBI dogs didn't inspect the various locations.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 22, 2015, 04:46:42 PM
Google is quite a good search engine I am told if you do not have the information to hand.
I was asking not telling 8(>(( You made the comparison with gas fitters who have to have a Gas Safe Registration Number. I presumed you were trying to imply there was a similar accreditation system for dogs and handlers; if you were not I don't see the point of that particular post. Mind you if a dog cocks it up it may not find a dead body. If a gas fitter cocks it up he may create a few. There is that much difference.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 22, 2015, 05:18:33 PM
So Eddie was "unique" by the standards expected of UK dogs in that he could recognise 2 different types of cadaver. Does that mean that all other UK VRD's would have failed FBI testing standards?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on January 22, 2015, 05:26:51 PM
Presumably Eddie was unique amongst UK dogs in that he had taken the test. Not being tested does not mean that other dogs would fail the test, only that they might.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 22, 2015, 05:53:53 PM
Presumably Eddie was unique amongst UK dogs in that he had taken the test. Not being tested does not mean that other dogs would fail the test, only that they might.
Eddie was unique amongst all sniffer dogs that have ever been for he appears to be the only one to ever be described as an Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog. What accreditation was required for that title I wonder...?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on January 22, 2015, 05:55:48 PM
Eddie was unique amongst all sniffer dogs that have ever been for he appears to be the only one to ever be described as an Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog. What accreditation was required for that title I wonder...?
Martin Grime made it up.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 22, 2015, 06:19:20 PM
Keela's Nose Makes Her Top Dog 11:52, UK, Friday 30 December 2005
Her handler, PC Martin Grime, has been responsible for training Keela, along with National Search Adviser Mark Harrison, since June last year.
A South Yorkshire force spokeswoman said the crime scene investigation dog has saved more then £200,000 nationally since April this year, helping with investigations in Ireland, Cornwall, Wiltshire, Surrey and the Thames Valley areas.
In the New Year, Keela will be travelling to America to assist the FBI with two murder inquiries.
Keela's Nose Makes Her Top Dog 11:52, UK, Friday 30 December 2005
Her handler, PC Martin Grime, has been responsible for training Keela, along with National Search Adviser Mark Harrison, since June last year.
A South Yorkshire force spokeswoman said the crime scene investigation dog has saved more then £200,000 nationally since April this year, helping with investigations in Ireland, Cornwall, Wiltshire, Surrey and the Thames Valley areas.
In the New Year, Keela will be travelling to America to assist the FBI with two murder inquiries.
Keela's Nose Makes Her Top Dog 11:52, UK, Friday 30 December 2005
Her handler, PC Martin Grime, has been responsible for training Keela, along with National Search Adviser Mark Harrison, since June last year.
A South Yorkshire force spokeswoman said the crime scene investigation dog has saved more then £200,000 nationally since April this year, helping with investigations in Ireland, Cornwall, Wiltshire, Surrey and the Thames Valley areas.
In the New Year, Keela will be travelling to America to assist the FBI with two murder inquiries.
At £200,000pa pro rata, do you believe Harrison (with his vested interest) was correct to recommend these particular dogs?
Curiously, contemporaneous reports of Grime's (proven and acknowledged) trip to America in the New Year 2006 says plenty about Keela, but nothing about Eddie ...
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 22, 2015, 06:38:41 PM
What measures were used to ascertain that Keela was "top dog"?
Keela could be described as ‘top dog’ in her field of expertise. The trained Crime Scene Investigation (CSI) dog has skills like no other and it has left forces worldwide hankering after an insight into her special training.
At the tender age of 16 months, the spaniel has already travelled to Ireland, Cornwall, Wiltshire, Surrey and Thames Valley to assist with enquires and has made quite an impression.
Keela’s trusty handler Martin Grime is responsible for all training that she has received, together with the National Search Adviser, Mark Harrison.
At present the Force has two victim recovery dogs, Frankie and Eddie. Martin also handles Eddie and has been working with him since he joined up around four years ago.
Keela is trained to locate minute samples of blood and can assist not only in murder investigation but also with scenes of crime teams to identify and recover evidence more efficiently.
Martin explained the reasons for training a CSI dog: “Although South Yorkshire Police have two victim recovery dogs that can detect blood and human remains we felt the need to separate the two search areas. We wanted to create a more specific working dog that could accurately detect very small samples of human blood.
“We had to change the way the dog is trained to alert its handler about a ‘find’. Normal recovery dogs will bark to signal this. In this case it is not appropriate, as the dog would be trained to sniff out blood that is often too small for the human eye to see. Instead, the dog will locate the contaminated area by pointing its nose at the spot where the blood is situated. This is much more accurate.”
This idea has been put forward to senior crime managers and forensic scientists and the response has been very enthusiastic.
In June 2004 Keela was assigned to Martin. The eight-week-old puppy, bred by West Midlands Police, then became the centre of an experiment evaluated by Mark to see whether a dog could be trained to work as part of the team. Unlike other dogs in the department Keela never participated in the usual six-week course. Martin trained her bit by bit everyday.
Keela followed a programme training her to ignore decomposing body materials other than human blood. She is also trained to have a ‘passive’ alert- where she freezes with her nose as near to the subject matter as possible without touching, to enable scientists to recover the sample quickly and efficiently.
The springer spaniel has now been fully trained and licensed. She works nationally and is deployed by the National Crime and Operations Faculty (NCOF) to high profile murders, missing persons and abductions. She is deployed within South Yorkshire on the directions of Detective Superintendent Kevin Morton to murders and serious assaults etc.
Martin is continuing to develop Keela but his methods are being kept a closely guarded secret until the experiment has been given approval of the ACPO committee.
Keela can search any area including houses, cars, boats, both indoors and outdoors. On duty she will lead Martin to spots of blood so small that humans can’t see them.
She screens textiles and can pick out clothing with blood on even after it has been washed many times in biological washing powder. Offenders can’t even trick her by trying to clean their weapons, as Keela would still smell blood after attempts have been made to wash away the evidence.
Meredydd Hughes, Chief Constable said: ” Keela’s training gives the force an edge when it comes to forensic investigation, which we should recognise and use more often. Martin has developed this capability through innovation and experience, and we are now considering how best to develop the training further. We know other forces are interested, both here and abroad, and we must see what opportunities we can develop. We know we have an operationally excellent dog section, and our specialist dogs are being developed in a unique way.”
Even in the early stages of her career Keela has been more successful than her trainers hoped. She has had a number of operational finds recovering murder weapons, identifying the blood of a victim in a suspect’s car and screening numerous amounts of clothing belonging to suspects.
Keela has made huge efficiency savings for the force in just eight months of work. Nationally since 1 April 2005 she has made savings of approximately £200,000.
A particular example where Keela has proven her efficiency was during a job in Wiltshire. Martin explained: “As a result of this incident 350 items of clothing had been recovered which all needed testing for evidence. To have the items examined at the forensic lab would have cost £200 for each item. Keela managed to help in just one day which resulted in eight pieces of clothing being detected with blood stains on them.”
The future definitely looks bright for the fun-loving dog wanted to work with the FBI in America. Luckily she has a full pet passport to enable her to jet off to the States where she will assist with two murder enquires at the beginning of next year.”
Keela could be described as ‘top dog’ in her field of expertise. The trained Crime Scene Investigation (CSI) dog has skills like no other and it has left forces worldwide hankering after an insight into her special training.
At the tender age of 16 months, the spaniel has already travelled to Ireland, Cornwall, Wiltshire, Surrey and Thames Valley to assist with enquires and has made quite an impression.
Keela’s trusty handler Martin Grime is responsible for all training that she has received, together with the National Search Adviser, Mark Harrison.
At present the Force has two victim recovery dogs, Frankie and Eddie. Martin also handles Eddie and has been working with him since he joined up around four years ago.
Keela is trained to locate minute samples of blood and can assist not only in murder investigation but also with scenes of crime teams to identify and recover evidence more efficiently.
Martin explained the reasons for training a CSI dog: “Although South Yorkshire Police have two victim recovery dogs that can detect blood and human remains we felt the need to separate the two search areas. We wanted to create a more specific working dog that could accurately detect very small samples of human blood.
“We had to change the way the dog is trained to alert its handler about a ‘find’. Normal recovery dogs will bark to signal this. In this case it is not appropriate, as the dog would be trained to sniff out blood that is often too small for the human eye to see. Instead, the dog will locate the contaminated area by pointing its nose at the spot where the blood is situated. This is much more accurate.”
This idea has been put forward to senior crime managers and forensic scientists and the response has been very enthusiastic.
In June 2004 Keela was assigned to Martin. The eight-week-old puppy, bred by West Midlands Police, then became the centre of an experiment evaluated by Mark to see whether a dog could be trained to work as part of the team. Unlike other dogs in the department Keela never participated in the usual six-week course. Martin trained her bit by bit everyday.
Keela followed a programme training her to ignore decomposing body materials other than human blood. She is also trained to have a ‘passive’ alert- where she freezes with her nose as near to the subject matter as possible without touching, to enable scientists to recover the sample quickly and efficiently.
The springer spaniel has now been fully trained and licensed. She works nationally and is deployed by the National Crime and Operations Faculty (NCOF) to high profile murders, missing persons and abductions. She is deployed within South Yorkshire on the directions of Detective Superintendent Kevin Morton to murders and serious assaults etc.
Martin is continuing to develop Keela but his methods are being kept a closely guarded secret until the experiment has been given approval of the ACPO committee.
Keela can search any area including houses, cars, boats, both indoors and outdoors. On duty she will lead Martin to spots of blood so small that humans can’t see them.
She screens textiles and can pick out clothing with blood on even after it has been washed many times in biological washing powder. Offenders can’t even trick her by trying to clean their weapons, as Keela would still smell blood after attempts have been made to wash away the evidence.
Meredydd Hughes, Chief Constable said: ” Keela’s training gives the force an edge when it comes to forensic investigation, which we should recognise and use more often. Martin has developed this capability through innovation and experience, and we are now considering how best to develop the training further. We know other forces are interested, both here and abroad, and we must see what opportunities we can develop. We know we have an operationally excellent dog section, and our specialist dogs are being developed in a unique way.”
Even in the early stages of her career Keela has been more successful than her trainers hoped. She has had a number of operational finds recovering murder weapons, identifying the blood of a victim in a suspect’s car and screening numerous amounts of clothing belonging to suspects.
Keela has made huge efficiency savings for the force in just eight months of work. Nationally since 1 April 2005 she has made savings of approximately £200,000.
A particular example where Keela has proven her efficiency was during a job in Wiltshire. Martin explained: “As a result of this incident 350 items of clothing had been recovered which all needed testing for evidence. To have the items examined at the forensic lab would have cost £200 for each item. Keela managed to help in just one day which resulted in eight pieces of clothing being detected with blood stains on them.”
The future definitely looks bright for the fun-loving dog wanted to work with the FBI in America. Luckily she has a full pet passport to enable her to jet off to the States where she will assist with two murder enquires at the beginning of next year.”
If the UK is not permitted to use human remains in the dog training, what form of blood would Keela have been trained on? Here is an example of the type of training used abroad dated 2003, which shows Keela's capabilities are not "unique" .http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Blood-hounds-Trained-in-Mountain-View-these-2557520.php
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 22, 2015, 07:08:19 PM
If the UK is not permitted to use human remains in the dog training, what form of blood would Keela have been trained on? Here is an example of the type of training used abroad dated 2003, which shows Keela's capabilities are not "unique" .http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Blood-hounds-Trained-in-Mountain-View-these-2557520.php
Keela was specially trained to do a passive alert at the exact spot. No blood on clothes but cadaver. I wonder whose hairs were in the boot &%+((£ Maybe new forensics may find out.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on January 22, 2015, 07:10:51 PM
Keela was specially trained to do a passive alert at the exact spot. No blood on clothes but cadaver. I wonder whose hairs were in the boot &%+((£ Maybe new forensics may find out.
Or not. as the case may be.
There was something in the news the other day about the use of unaccredited forensic laboratories by the UK police. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30909722
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 22, 2015, 07:19:47 PM
Keela was specially trained to do a passive alert at the exact spot. No blood on clothes but cadaver. I wonder whose hairs were in the boot &%+((£ Maybe new forensics may find out.
Keela followed a programme training her to ignore decomposing body materials other than human blood. She is also trained to have a ‘passive’ alert- where she freezes with her nose as near to the subject matter as possible without touching, to enable scientists to recover the sample quickly and efficiently
Eddie didn't indicate cadaver where the hair & body fluids were located which means there was no evidence of decomposition.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 22, 2015, 07:26:04 PM
Hypothetically, Eddie could have been alerting to areas in 5a which a pig farmer had been in contact with (the alerts in the Scenic already having forensic corroboration).
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 22, 2015, 07:30:53 PM
Hypothetically, Eddie could have been alerting to areas in 5a which a pig farmer had been in contact with (the alerts in the Scenic already having forensic corroboration).
Was the pig farmer wearing Kate's clothes?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 22, 2015, 07:36:14 PM
Kate's clothes may have been in the wardrobe with the T-shirt and other dirty laundry, perhaps touched if rifling through looking for hidden valuables.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on January 22, 2015, 07:38:34 PM
Kate's clothes may have been in the wardrobe with the T-shirt and other dirty laundry, perhaps touched if rifling through looking for hidden valuables.
Is this your fantasy or do you have evidence to substantiate that?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 22, 2015, 07:50:47 PM
Is this your fantasy or do you have evidence to substantiate that?
No, it is a hypothesis based on the fact that Eddie would alert to dead pig and there was an absence of forensic evidence to substantiate human cadaver contact.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on January 22, 2015, 07:51:56 PM
No, it is a hypothesis based on the fact that Eddie would alert to dead pig and there was an absence of forensic evidence to substantiate human cadaver contact.
So what is this about rifling through clothing?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 22, 2015, 07:58:20 PM
Hypothetically, Eddie could have been alerting to areas in 5a which a pig farmer had been in contact with (the alerts in the Scenic already having forensic corroboration).
That is a very clever hypothosis, if I may say.
Perhaps that is why SY wanted to 'interview' a pig farmer. He may have had blood on him and may have been in that apartment before the McCanns went on holiday...
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 22, 2015, 11:23:10 PM
Perhaps that is why SY wanted to 'interview' a pig farmer. He may have had blood on him and may have been in that apartment before the McCanns went on holiday...
Not blood, but he may well have been in contact with dead pigs. The point I have been trying to make is that the ambiguity of Eddie's alerts, because of his training, opens up the possibility of something other than human cadaver scent in that apartment & on the clothes. Had FBI dogs been used, the results may have been somewhat different.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 23, 2015, 03:30:25 PM
Not blood, but he may well have been in contact with dead pigs. The point I have been trying to make is that the ambiguity of Eddie's alerts, because of his training, opens up the possibility of something other than human cadaver scent in that apartment & on the clothes. Had FBI dogs been used, the results may have been somewhat different.
Excellent post, Misty.
Once trained ... they cannot be untrained.
If they are trained on pig they will react to pig ... whether or not training on human remains is introduced at a later stage.
For example, Keela was trained exclusively using human blood and we are told reacted to nothing else.
Some American dogs, are trained exclusively on products from human remains and are therefore conditioned to react to nothing else. Making your point valid regarding FBI VRDs trained exclusively on human remains.
Interestingly, Martin Grime is on record that his dogs did not react to pseudo scents.
VRDs are capable of being fooled by methane which is a product of human decomposition ... in a property occupied by at least four other families then closed prior to inspection by the VRD ... Eddie could have been excited inside by the same odour he encountered in the pathway outside 5a ... no-one will ever know.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 23, 2015, 03:37:42 PM
If they are trained on pig they will react to pig ... whether or not training on human remains is introduced at a later stage.
For example, Keela was trained exclusively using human blood and we are told reacted to nothing else.
Some American dogs, are trained exclusively on products from human remains and are therefore conditioned to react to nothing else. Making your point valid regarding FBI VRDs trained exclusively on human remains.
Interestingly, Martin Grime is on record that his dogs did not react to pseudo scents.
VRDs are capable of being fooled by methane which is a product of human decomposition ... in a property occupied by at least four other families then closed prior to inspection by the VRD ... Eddie could have been excited inside by the same odour he encountered in the pathway outside 5a ... no-one will ever know.
Keela found no blood on the clothes. Eddie was specially trained to detect even the faintest cadaver scent as Keela was specially trained to alert to the blood even after it had been washed clean. Grime trained the dogs daily. That's why they were the best and Mark Harrison and the FBI used them.
"He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent' odour from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject."
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: sadie on January 23, 2015, 03:40:32 PM
Keela found no blood on the clothes. Eddie was specially trained to detect even the faintest cadaver scent as Keela was specially trained to alert to the blood even after it had been washed clean. Grime trained the dogs daily. That's why they were the best and Mark Harrison and the FBI used them.
"He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent' odour from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject."
He also alerted to dead pig and pork
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 23, 2015, 03:44:01 PM
I think you'll find a dead pig has never been inside that apartment, wearing their clothes or taking a ride in their car.
"False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal."
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 23, 2015, 03:47:28 PM
Keela found no blood on the clothes. Eddie was specially trained to detect even the faintest cadaver scent as Keela was specially trained to alert to the blood even after it had been washed clean. Grime trained the dogs daily. That's why they were the best and Mark Harrison and the FBI used them.
"He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent' odour from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject."
Eddie wasn't averse to lifting discarded food from waste bins ... or was that part of his training to show he wasn't really bothered with road kill or whatever?
Who can ever forget him barking for his little cuddly pink toy hidden in a cupboard?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 23, 2015, 03:55:43 PM
Eddie wasn't averse to lifting discarded food from waste bins ... or was that part of his training to show he wasn't really bothered with road kill or whatever?
Who can ever forget him barking for his little cuddly pink toy hidden in a cupboard?
He only alerts if he detects what he's trained to find. He only barks for one reason. SY were searching for a body last summer. The only evidence they have of death is the dogs. Nothing else. Not other cases of children being abducted and killed in Luz made them come to that conclusion.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 23, 2015, 04:09:39 PM
He only alerts if he detects what he's trained to find. He only barks for one reason. SY were searching for a body last summer. The only evidence they have of death is the dogs. Nothing else. Not other cases of children being abducted and killed in Luz made them come to that conclusion.
No. Dog in the singular. Keela was trained to detect blood. All her alerts had forensic corroboration & were blood from living humans. If Madeleine died in that apartment she did not bleed. That leaves Eddie as the sole source of cadaver indication. Eddie was not trained to the same level as FBI dogs, whatever type of spin you put on it. He wasn't even trained to mark the point of scent. merely to bark. Unlike the FBI dogs, as shown on your Body Farm video. You have to ask the question - in whose interest was it to deploy Eddie & Keela in the search for Madeleine?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 23, 2015, 04:10:45 PM
No. Dog in the singular. Keela was trained to detect blood. All her alerts had forensic corroboration & were blood from living humans. If Madeleine died in that apartment she did not bleed. That leaves Eddie as the sole source of cadaver indication. Eddie was not trained to the same level as FBI dogs, whatever type of spin you put on it. He wasn't even trained to mark the point of scent. merely to bark. Unlike the FBI dogs, as shown on your Body Farm video. You have to ask the question - in whose interest was it to deploy Eddie & Keela in the search for Madeleine?
How do you know she didn't bleed? Eddie got top marks at the body farm. Both dogs passed with flying colours I was told and Martin Grime first took both dogs to the body farm in 2005.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 23, 2015, 04:28:04 PM
No. Dog in the singular. Keela was trained to detect blood. All her alerts had forensic corroboration & were blood from living humans. If Madeleine died in that apartment she did not bleed. That leaves Eddie as the sole source of cadaver indication. Eddie was not trained to the same level as FBI dogs, whatever type of spin you put on it. He wasn't even trained to mark the point of scent. merely to bark. Unlike the FBI dogs, as shown on your Body Farm video. You have to ask the question - in whose interest was it to deploy Eddie & Keela in the search for Madeleine?
Doesn't look as if anyone is interested in thinking that one through to its logical conclusion.
As far as I am concerned the person picking up the financial rewards for the dogs' expedition to PDL might be in pole position.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: DCI on January 23, 2015, 04:32:15 PM
He only alerts if he detects what he's trained to find. He only barks for one reason. SY were searching for a body last summer. The only evidence they have of death is the dogs. Nothing else. Not other cases of children being abducted and killed in Luz made them come to that conclusion.
If he only barks for one reason, what was the reason for him barking about 6 times up the garage wall?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 23, 2015, 04:35:52 PM
I'm sure you're more than capable of clicking on the video link on this forum & refreshing your memory.
Eddie only barked and alerted when he found the source of the scent coming out of the door seal. He didn't bark anywhere else in the underground car park so stop spreading myths.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: sadie on January 23, 2015, 06:02:34 PM
I think you'll find a dead pig has never been inside that apartment, wearing their clothes or taking a ride in their car.
"False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal."
Roast pork sandwich remains on someones hands?
If dead pigs are similar to dead humans for cadavar dogs ... and cadavar dogs are used for finding bodies after fires, [roasted humans 8(8-)), then it makes sense that cadavar dogs will alert to roast pig [pork /. bacon]. IMO
Anyone prove me wrong?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 23, 2015, 06:04:57 PM
If dead pigs are similar to dead humans for cadavar dogs ... and cadavar dogs are used for finding bodies after fires, [roasted humans 8(8-)), then it makes sense that cadavar dogs will alert to roast pig [pork /. bacon]. IMO
Anyone prove me wrong?
You reply to one myth maker then they all appear at once *&*%£
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 23, 2015, 06:05:51 PM
If dead pigs are similar to dead humans for cadavar dogs ... and cadavar dogs are used for finding bodies after fires, [roasted humans 8(8-)), then it makes sense that cadavar dogs will alert to roast pig [pork /. bacon]. IMO
Anyone prove me wrong?
Provide the research to back up your beliefs.
Now Sadie can you explain what the cooking process has on organic compounds ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 23, 2015, 06:06:59 PM
If dead pigs are similar to dead humans for cadavar dogs ... and cadavar dogs are used for finding bodies after fires, [roasted humans 8(8-)), then it makes sense that cadavar dogs will alert to roast pig [pork /. bacon]. IMO
Anyone prove me wrong?
No good if they are a veggie. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: sadie on January 23, 2015, 06:19:56 PM
If dead pigs are similar to dead humans for cadavar dogs ... and cadavar dogs are used for finding bodies after fires, [roasted humans 8(8-)), then it makes sense that cadavar dogs will alert to roast pig [pork /. bacon]. IMO
Anyone prove me wrong?
Please try to remember that whatever Pig will have been used will have been ungutted. So no Bacon Sandwiches.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ferryman on January 23, 2015, 06:36:09 PM
I must admit that I thought he barked too, but maybe he just jumped up the wall several times. I don't know if he would actually be heard barking, that distance from the Mic. The mouth actions of a bark were there, though.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 23, 2015, 07:29:52 PM
I must admit that I thought he barked too, but maybe he just jumped up the wall several times. I don't know if he would actually be heard barking, that distance from the Mic. The mouth actions of a bark were there, though.
Watch the clip, you can hear him running around, if he'da barked you'da heard it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTF4JTLeOWA
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Anna on January 23, 2015, 07:33:00 PM
At what time can I see these mouth actions of a bark of which you spread a myth.
Oh yeah that's right, I can't.
So, he didn't keep jumping up the wall then?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: lordpookles on January 23, 2015, 07:45:05 PM
Guys c'mon. Why make stuff up? It diminishes your argument. No barking at all apart from near the car. You would certainly hear it if he did. You can still hear the dog making noises very indistinctly like his paws on the concrete and panting when he gets further away. A bark would be heard.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 23, 2015, 07:46:10 PM
I still find it hard to believe that the only speck of blood in that whole underground car park was a speck on the Renault's car key. &%+((£
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 23, 2015, 07:46:33 PM
Watch the clip, you can hear him running around, if he'da barked you'da heard it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTF4JTLeOWA
However the dog that only barks as a trained response ... barked at ... 1:18:30 ... 1.21.27 ... 1:22:34
I did find watching Keela inside the Renault interesting.
Although the reflection in the glass made observation difficult ... it was easy to see her trained response in the boot when the lid was opened ... as far as I am concerned there was no response from Keela trained or otherwise to the front driver's door where the key fob allegedly was.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 23, 2015, 07:48:49 PM
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 23, 2015, 08:08:34 PM
I've spent ages listening for the part where Eddie alerts to the fluids leaking down from the wheel well from the defrosting cadaver. Perhaps Stephen & WonderfulSpam think that audio was edited out too?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 23, 2015, 08:18:09 PM
I've spent ages listening for the part where Eddie alerts to the fluids leaking down from the wheel well from the defrosting cadaver. Perhaps Stephen & WonderfulSpam think that audio was edited out too?
Has it ever occurred to you that the dogs did alert to a body ?
Or are you so wrapped up in the McCann's , you won't admit that possibility ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ferryman on January 23, 2015, 08:22:25 PM
And particularly remembering that they were looking for Madeleine's blood, it is still more weird that Grime thought it might be found on the ignition key of a car hired 3 weeks after Madeleine was abducted.
But there we are ...
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 23, 2015, 08:37:41 PM
I've spent ages listening for the part where Eddie alerts to the fluids leaking down from the wheel well from the defrosting cadaver. Perhaps Stephen & WonderfulSpam think that audio was edited out too?
When have I ever claimed that happened?
I'll help you out, never.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 23, 2015, 08:47:15 PM
At what time can I see these mouth actions of a bark of which you spread a myth.
Oh yeah that's right, I can't.
Longer version, check out from One hour 19 mins, you can see his mouth actions. Watch longer and see what else has benn edited than shouldnt have been towards the end of garage filming, bet you don't find it.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 23, 2015, 09:21:41 PM
Longer version, check out from One hour 19 mins, you can see his mouth actions. Watch longer and see what else has benn edited than shouldnt have been towards the end of garage filming, bet you don't find it.
Mouth actions of a bark, my arse.
Where?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: DCI on January 23, 2015, 09:27:09 PM
Has it ever occurred to you that the dogs did alert to a body ?
Or are you so wrapped up in the McCann's , you won't admit that possibility ?
Construction sites seem to be a tried and tested means of getting rid of a body in some sections of society ... just pour it in with the concrete mix ... and if a cadaver dog had gone at a concrete wall the way Eddie went at that one ... I would have wanted to find out why.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 23, 2015, 09:43:49 PM
Construction sites seem to be a tried and tested means of getting rid of a body in some sections of society ... just pour it in with the concrete mix ... and if a cadaver dog had gone at a concrete wall the way Eddie went at that one ... I would have wanted to find out why.
The scent was coming out of the car and Eddie was chasing it. Doh! His behaviour substantially changed when passing that car. Another coincidence NOT 8)-)))
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 23, 2015, 09:45:30 PM
Longer version, check out from One hour 19 mins, you can see his mouth actions. Watch longer and see what else has benn edited than shouldnt have been towards the end of garage filming, bet you don't find it.
Are you referring to the removal of Madeleine's posters from the Scenic before Keela entered? (Brietta kindly pointed that out to me previously)
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 23, 2015, 09:46:25 PM
I find quite ironic that certain people attack the dog's indications, yet claim they have no value whatsoever.
The continued reference to them by McCann supporters therefore leads to one distinct conclusion. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 23, 2015, 09:53:01 PM
The scent was coming out of the car and Eddie was chasing it. Doh! His behaviour substantially changed when passing that car. Another coincidence NOT 8)-)))
Around he went, scenting the air.
Oh look, there are fans in the car park.
How extraordinary!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: DCI on January 23, 2015, 09:54:10 PM
Construction sites seem to be a tried and tested means of getting rid of a body in some sections of society ... just pour it in with the concrete mix ... and if a cadaver dog had gone at a concrete wall the way Eddie went at that one ... I would have wanted to find out why.
Do you have much evidence of that? There has always been plenty of speculation The Mad Axe man Frank Mitchell (all Mitchells are related some have said on here &%+((£) but little proof. With reinforcing bars on 150 to 200 centres in both directions you would need to cut the corpse up into pretty small pieces first. The shuttering and reinforcement will have been inspected immediately prior to pour and some geezer is poking a 100 or 150 diameter vibrator about to aid air elimination and compaction, I think it might just be spotted somehow don't you?. It works in the movies and on The Sweeney and is a jolly jape but in real life? I guess you think you know what you are on about 8(>((
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 23, 2015, 10:04:32 PM
Course, dog alerts are notoriously affected by the presence or otherwise of posters.
That & the handlers fashion sense.
The dogs passed the body farm tests with flying colours. That's why the FBI wanted them. This is what they're friend says:
Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. To convince us of their capability and the extraordinary work carried out by these very special detectives in the course of over 200 investigations, he screens a video for us, showing their training and their intervention on the ground.
Eddie has been involved in a great number of cases, helping the police to resolve a good many riddles, thanks to his sense of smell. Even if the body has been moved, objects the body has touched have been contaminated by its odour, especially porous materials, fabrics, the upholstery in cars, etc. And that odour, Eddie knows how to recognise out of a thousand.
Keela, a scenes of crime specialist, is capable of locating particles of blood even after a place has been cleaned with chemical products or bleach. Sometimes, the residues are so microscopic they are missed by the instruments of the forensic police, as sophicticated as they are, and it's impossible to harvest them without taking all of what they are on.
Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it's Keela's turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood. The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cavaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurred.
The dogs' CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI's "Body Farm," the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies. (TOTL)
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: DCI on January 23, 2015, 10:06:53 PM
Do you have much evidence of that? There has always been plenty of speculation The Mad Axe man Frank Mitchell (all Mitchells are related some have said on here &%+((£) but little proof. With reinforcing bars on 150 to 200 centres in both directions you would need to cut the corpse up into pretty small pieces first. The shuttering and reinforcement will have been inspected immediately prior to pour and some geezer is poking a 100 or 150 diameter vibrator about to aid air elimination and compaction, I think it might just be spotted somehow don't you?. It works in the movies and on The Sweeney and is a jolly jape but in real life? I guess you think you know what you are on about 8(>((
Merely going on the VRD's reaction ... ask WS for advice on dogs smelling cadavers through concrete he/she seems to be the doggie person on the forum.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 23, 2015, 10:13:41 PM
One wonders what his reaction might have been if his handler had stood beside it while banging it with his (gloved) hand.
Well, he certainly got a tad more excited once he'd had a good ole snort of that hire car belonging to the innocent parents of an abducted child who definitely isn't dead really guv, honest!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: sadie on January 23, 2015, 10:28:19 PM
Eddie only barked and alerted when he found the source of the scent coming out of the door seal. He didn't bark anywhere else in the underground car park so stop spreading myths.
Scent doesn't come out of door seals in modern cars unless there is a gross difference in air pressures.
Door seals do not let any rain in .. and they would not let any scent out.
They are made of impermeable material.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 23, 2015, 10:31:52 PM
They get a lot of use do doors, opening & closing again, that sort of stuff.
& sometimes it gets warm on the Algarve, weirdly enough.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: sadie on January 23, 2015, 10:41:11 PM
Yeah, weird that innit?
BUMPED: Ferrymans response:
It is.
And particularly remembering that they were looking for Madeleine's blood, it is still more weird that Grime thought it might be found on the ignition key of a car hired 3 weeks after Madeleine was abducted.
Brilliant point Ferryman 8@??)(
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: sadie on January 23, 2015, 10:57:53 PM
Longer version, check out from One hour 19 mins, you can see his mouth actions. Watch longer and see what else has benn edited than shouldnt have been towards the end of garage filming, bet you don't find it.
The film is spliced.
Made to look as tho it was filmed in one go, but it was not it seems.
Madeleine photos showing in the car when Eddie barks are no longer there when Martin returns.
The film is spliced.
How long between the two shootings, I wonder? &%+((£
My eyesight isn't so good atm but I think I am right.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: sadie on January 23, 2015, 11:08:32 PM
They ain't a 100% seal & they perish with age, more so in warmer climes, as it 'appens.
That was a fairly new car. Hire cars are never old in our experiernce, and we have plenty of that, but the engines have sometimes been flogged to death.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 23, 2015, 11:25:53 PM
They ain't a 100% seal & they perish with age, more so in warmer climes, as it 'appens.
There were 3114km on the milo. when the McCanns hired the car. How many door openings do you think took place? Their winters are also comparable with UK winters, are they not?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: lordpookles on January 23, 2015, 11:41:30 PM
Cars are not airtight. Air gets in and gets out even in a brand new car. Google it. For instance when you drive by a sewage works or a rubbish dump with all your windows up you still smell that poo/trash right?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 23, 2015, 11:55:23 PM
Cars are not airtight. Air gets in and gets out even in a brand new car. Google it. For instance when you drive by a sewage works or a rubbish dump with all your windows up you still smell that poo/trash right?
My daughter drove her 6 yr old Peugeot through a 2ft deep "puddle" during floods last year. No water got into the interior.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: lordpookles on January 23, 2015, 11:58:07 PM
Of course a car is designed to be waterproofed up to a certain degree for instance when it rains, but not airtight.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 23, 2015, 11:59:19 PM
If Eddie indicated at the door seal close to where the key was located, why didn't he indicate at the cupboard door immediately behind which Cuddlecat was located?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: lordpookles on January 24, 2015, 12:05:59 AM
No idea about that. I have not watched the video in full just bits. Maybe whatever smell he was alerting to(I am not suggesting this was definitley cadaver odour by the way as that is impossible to know) could have been less concentrated on the toy.
I have heard/read one of the biggest factors that cause these dogs to give false alerts is cueing by the handler. I am not suggesting this is definitley what Grimes did as some direction is standard I think, but it seems from the brief reading I have done this can be a problem.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 24, 2015, 12:21:14 AM
Made to look as tho it was filmed in one go, but it was not it seems.
Madeleine photos showing in the car when Eddie barks are no longer there when Martin returns.
The film is spliced.
How long between the two shootings, I wonder? &%+((£
My eyesight isn't so good atm but I think I am right.
The film is certainly spliced ... the vehicle was moved between Levy shooting Eddie's activities and shooting Keela's.
Unless someone can point out the time and date stamp on them ... these are not the evidential videos shot by the PJ.
CARTAS ROGATORIAS 3 Pages 19 to 20
LEICESTERSHIRE POLICE SQUAD WITNESS TESTIMONY OF MARK HARRISON Occupation: Police Agent
3. How did the searches evolve? Between the 31.07.2007 and 07.08.2007 the searches took place in Praia da Luz were under the command and supervision of the Chief Inspector Vitor MATOS of the PJ. He was personally present at the searches and at his request I accompanied him as an advisor. The searches evolved were multidisciplinary and involved the PJ, GNR, UK Police and the University of Aveiro. All the searches that occurred were documented in video by the PJ, including location, time and date stamps. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 24, 2015, 12:24:14 AM
If Eddie indicated at the door seal close to where the key was located, why didn't he indicate at the cupboard door immediately behind which Cuddlecat was located?
If Eddie alerted to a blood spot at the door ... why did he ignore the blood spot in the boot?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on January 24, 2015, 12:27:46 AM
No idea about that. I have not watched the video in full just bits. Maybe whatever smell he was alerting to(I am not suggesting this was definitley cadaver odour by the way as that is impossible to know) could have been less concentrated on the toy.
I have heard/read one of the biggest factors that cause these dogs to give false alerts is cueing by the handler. I am not suggesting this is definitley what Grimes did as some direction is standard I think, but it seems from the brief reading I have done this can be a problem.
Consider this lordpookies.
The FBI have their own cadaver dog handlers, men they had trained and knew the standard of their work. Yet they decided to bring Martin Grime, at great expense I'm sure, to America to help them find evidence of death in high profile cases. Now why do you think they did that ? They had their own men, so why go to all that unnecessary expense ?
Why, after viewing the videos we have all seen, did the FBI decide Grime's work with his dogs was of such a high standard that he would be an asset to their team ?
Why, if the faithful can see all the unconscious cuing that Grime was using towards his dogs, didn't the highly trained men of the FBI see it ?
Why if he was not executing the searches in a professional manner did the FBI employ him at all ?
Do you really think the FBI would employ a dog handler who was prone to unconscious cuing and whose handling of his dogs was dubious ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 24, 2015, 12:35:45 AM
If Eddie alerted to a blood spot at the door ... why did he ignore the blood spot in the boot?
Have you unearthed any information on how the dogs can differentiate between blood remains from a corpse & blood from a living person? I have struggled to find anything of help, just as I can't find any scientific comparison of cooked human remains v cooked pig cadaver.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on January 24, 2015, 12:39:55 AM
http://blacksmithbureau.blogspot.co.uk
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 24, 2015, 12:59:34 AM
The FBI have their own cadaver dog handlers, men they had trained and knew the standard of their work. Yet they decided to bring Martin Grime, at great expense I'm sure, to America to help them find evidence of death in high profile cases. Now why do you think they did that ? They had their own men, so why go to all that unnecessary expense ?
Why, after viewing the videos we have all seen, did the FBI decide Grime's work with his dogs was of such a high standard that he would be an asset to their team ?
Why, if the faithful can see all the unconscious cuing that Grime was using towards his dogs, didn't the highly trained men of the FBI see it ?
Why if he was not executing the searches in a professional manner did the FBI employ him at all ?
Do you really think the FBI would employ a dog handler who was prone to unconscious cuing and whose handling of his dogs was dubious ?
How many times did the FBI employ him on cases?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on January 24, 2015, 01:05:01 AM
Cars are not airtight. Air gets in and gets out even in a brand new car. Google it. For instance when you drive by a sewage works or a rubbish dump with all your windows up you still smell that poo/trash right?
Doesn't come in thru the door seals though. The door seals are designed and manufactured to be waterproof even in mighty storms, splashing thru puddles and going at 90 mph.
They are not going to let the slightest whiff of a smell out.
And neither will the metal of the car
There is something weird about Eddie alerting there. Really weird.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: DCI on January 24, 2015, 01:18:28 AM
He was employed in a consultancy role for the development of the Forensic Canine Program.
But do you know how many times Grime & his own dogs were used on cases? It's one thing being in a team of people, another being employed as a sole handler on a case.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 24, 2015, 01:40:53 AM
But do you know how many times Grime & his own dogs were used on cases? It's one thing being in a team of people, another being employed as a sole handler on a case.
I do not think Eddie ever worked in America ... but I believe Martin Grime and Morse worked there ... on how many cases, I've no idea.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: DCI on January 24, 2015, 01:43:29 AM
But do you know how many times Grime & his own dogs were used on cases? It's one thing being in a team of people, another being employed as a sole handler on a case.
None by the looks of things Misty!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on January 24, 2015, 02:25:44 AM
Thank you both for that. I wonder exactly where he got his "200 cases & never wrong" figure from? There really is so much wrong with all this and it does make you wonder what the wider agenda really was back in 2007.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 24, 2015, 07:11:44 AM
Doesn't come in thru the door seals though. The door seals are designed and manufactured to be waterproof even in mighty storms, splashing thru puddles and going at 90 mph.
They are not going to let the slightest whiff of a smell out.
And neither will the metal of the car
There is something weird about Eddie alerting there. Really weird.
Ever sat in a car with the air vents closed & the windows up?
Did you suffocate?
No, you didn't.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 24, 2015, 07:25:51 AM
Doesn't come in thru the door seals though. The door seals are designed and manufactured to be waterproof even in mighty storms, splashing thru puddles and going at 90 mph.
They are not going to let the slightest whiff of a smell out.
And neither will the metal of the car
There is something weird about Eddie alerting there. Really weird.
So sadie, when the car is 'sealed', nothing can come in or out of the car in the way og gases ?
How do you breathe sadie ?
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 24, 2015, 08:24:45 AM
There were 3114km on the milo. when the McCanns hired the car. How many door openings do you think took place? Their winters are also comparable with UK winters, are they not?
'The examination of the interior of the vehicle was initiated, register was also taken of the kilometres clocked at 9329 km'
Did they really drive 6000 km?
Blimey!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Benice on January 24, 2015, 10:18:08 AM
The dogs passed the body farm tests with flying colours. That's why the FBI wanted them. This is what they're friend says:
Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. To convince us of their capability and the extraordinary work carried out by these very special detectives in the course of over 200 investigations, he screens a video for us, showing their training and their intervention on the ground.
Eddie has been involved in a great number of cases, helping the police to resolve a good many riddles, thanks to his sense of smell. Even if the body has been moved, objects the body has touched have been contaminated by its odour, especially porous materials, fabrics, the upholstery in cars, etc. And that odour, Eddie knows how to recognise out of a thousand.
Keela, a scenes of crime specialist, is capable of locating particles of blood even after a place has been cleaned with chemical products or bleach. Sometimes, the residues are so microscopic they are missed by the instruments of the forensic police, as sophicticated as they are, and it's impossible to harvest them without taking all of what they are on.
Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it's Keela's turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood. The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cavaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurred.
The dogs' CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI's "Body Farm," the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies. (TOTL)
If a dog alerts at a spot where nothing can be seen by the naked eye - or even detected by forensic equipment - then how does Grime know it's not a false alert? Surely he can only assume?
And if the dogs are THAT sensitive - then why were there no alerts in the other 9 nine cars or the other apartments? Keeping in mind that even bleach does not get rid of the scent - I do not believe that no-one had ever spilt even the tiniest drop of blood - in any of those other places at any time during the previous years.
As I believe the dogs were that good - then IMO if they had been made to search for the same length of time in the other places as they were in McCann related places, more alerts would have definitely resulted. So what would have happened then?
IMO- because of the quite obvious extra emphasis which Grime placed on searching McCann related sites as opposed to anywhere else - both with regard to time spent (and his own body language around the Renault) - the whole test was badly flawed - because it was plainly biased.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Carew on January 24, 2015, 10:32:43 AM
Back to ........."give the dog enough time and / or cuing, he will alert eventually anywhere the handler consciously or unconsciously wants him to."
......whilst at the same time, cleverly "negative cuing" to prevent any alerts to residues of pork products, lavatories, bathrooms, bins and ovens............ or historical splodges of this that or the other .
Yep.........as another poster observed..........There`s a lot of sniffable alertable fear about.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Benice on January 24, 2015, 10:51:48 AM
Back to ........."give the dog enough time and / or cuing, he will alert eventually anywhere the handler consciously or unconsciously wants him to."
......whilst at the same time, cleverly "negative cuing" to prevent any alerts to residues of pork products, lavatories, bathrooms, bins and ovens............ or historical splodges of this that or the other .
Yep.........as another poster observed..........There`s a lot of sniffable alertable fear about.
So you don't believe that any of the scents within the dogs abilties to detect even in miniscule proportions -(blood for instance,) had ever been in any of the other cars or any of the other apartments? Really?
Turn it round the other way. If Grime had let Eddie move on from the Renault after spending the same amount of time on it as he had on the other cars (less than 30 secs max) then there were have been NO alerts at the Renault in that timespan. But unlike with the other cars he kept calling Eddie back - even after he had moved away more than once - and it was over 2 mins before Eddie finally alerted.
There is one car (no 2?) which Grime does not even require Eddie to do a full circle of before moving on.
The bias was unmistakeable - as was the fact that the Renault clearly belonged to the McCanns. That fact alone - made the whole test flawed before it even started IMO.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 24, 2015, 10:53:03 AM
So sadie, when the car is 'sealed', nothing can come in or out of the car in the way og gases ?
How do you breathe sadie ?
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
We have done this one before at least twice! Why do you think the faithful think the answer will be different this time? If a car is airtight how does the air con work? Like: if you are blowing air in it has to go out somewhere otherwise the car becomes pressurised. Then the door really will fly open @)(++(* Gimme strength.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on January 24, 2015, 11:11:56 AM
We have done this one before at least twice! Why do you think the faithful think the answer will be different this time? If a car is airtight how does the air con work? Like: if you are blowing air in it has to go out somewhere otherwise the car becomes pressurised. Then the door really will fly open @)(++(* Gimme strength.
Indeed we have probably done this one a lot more than twice ... so maybe you can show us the Renault model that has porous door seals and maybe even an air vent or something in the front doors just so that the car doesn't turn into a bomb when the air con unit is operating? Does it work along the same principle as a pressurised plane ... or do they have porous door fittings too?
Really quite interested in how blood scent leaches through a padded metal door and an airtight seal and you seem to be the person to ask.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 24, 2015, 11:16:53 AM
Indeed we have probably done this one a lot more than twice ... so maybe you can show us the Renault model that has porous door seals and maybe even an air vent or something in the front doors just so that the car doesn't turn into a bomb when the air con unit is operating? Does it work along the same principle as a pressurised plane ... or do they have porous door fittings too?
Really quite interested in how blood scent leaches through a padded metal door and an airtight seal and you seem to be the person to ask.
Tell me brietta, how you would breatheina car if it was airtight ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Carew on January 24, 2015, 11:24:00 AM
So you don't believe that any of the scents within the dogs abilties to detect even in miniscule proportions -(blood for instance,) had ever been in any of the other cars or any of the other apartments? Really?
Turn it round the other way. If Grime had let Eddie move on from the Renault after spending the same amount of time on it as he had on the other cars (less than 30 secs max) then there were have been NO alerts at the Renault in that timespan. But unlike with the other cars he kept calling Eddie back - even after he had moved away more than once - and it was over 2 mins before Eddie finally alerted.
There is one car (no 2?) which Grime does not even require Eddie to do a full circle of before moving on.
The bias was unmistakeable - as was the fact that the Renault clearly belonged to the McCanns. That fact alone - made the whole test flawed before it even started IMO.
You don`t refute my observations about the gist and purpose of your "discussion" then ?
Point out instances all you will..........what the "discussion" all boils down to is what I posted earlier.
That`s what it`s all about isn`t it?
As is the ultimate purpose of all the doggie-woggie threads.
Maybe it`s time to "confront" Mr Grime about your (collective) concerns about his work.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 01, 2019, 11:40:33 PM
It would seem that there were concerns over the training and monitoring of sniffer dogs in general - during Eddie and Keela's time with the police force.
Quote from Skye.
"Police sniffer dogs used to find missing people and dead bodies "urgently" need better training and monitoring, according to an official report.
The Government's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) said specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence.........
The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry". "There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.
The review uses a kidnap investigation to highlight how dogs have tied up valuable police time. The animals detected human remains in old furniture that had been bought from houses where the owner had died. The use of victim recovery, or cadaver dogs, has proved to be controversial in a number of high-profile cases in recent years. A South Yorkshire Police spaniel called Eddie was said to have sniffed out the "scent of death" at the Haut de la Garenne children's home in Jersey and the apartment from which Madeleine McCann disappeared in Portugal. But in both cases nothing more was found and South Yorkshire Police say Eddie is no longer working with them.
Sniffer dogs hindered the police probe into Shannon Matthew's disappearance
Victim recovery dogs from four different police forces were used during searches for kidnapped schoolgirl Shannon Matthews in Dewsbury in West Yorkshire in 2008. The dogs found evidence of dead bodies, but officers later discovered the corpses were nothing to do with her disappearance. "The properties searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died," according to the NPIA report....."
Interesting to note that in this report (reposted here to try and discredit the work of victim recovery and crime scene dogs) what we actually have is a correct alert to cadaver odour. In the Shannon Matthews case the alert was verified. It was discovered the "scent of death" was due to the corpse of the previous owner on furniture that was sold on the second hand market. In other words the dogs were doing exactly what they are trained to do - and doing it with verifiable accuracy.
It's also factually incorrect to state "nothing more was found" in the Madeleine McCann case. Human cellular material was found in both the hire car and in apartment 5A. This material was then sent to the FSS laboratory in the UK for forensic investigation. Low copy DNA results were "inconclusive" in terms of proving these human samples belonged to Madeleine McCann.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 02, 2019, 12:13:05 AM
Interesting to note that in this report (reposted here to try and discredit the work of victim recovery and crime scene dogs) what we actually have is a correct alert to cadaver odour. In the Shannon Matthews case the alert was verified. It was discovered the "scent of death" was due to the corpse of the previous owner on furniture that was sold on the second hand market. In other words the dogs were doing exactly what they are trained to do - and doing it with verifiable accuracy.
It's also factually incorrect to state "nothing more was found" in the Madeleine McCann case. Human cellular material was found in both the hire car and in apartment 5A. This material was then sent to the FSS laboratory in the UK for forensic investigation. Low copy DNA results were "inconclusive" in terms of proving these human samples belonged to Madeleine McCann.
Welcome to the forum.
You definitely hit the forum running. You seen right up there in the detail. Interesting.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 02, 2019, 12:51:15 AM
You definitely hit the forum running. You seen right up there in the detail. Interesting.
Thank you and hello.... The case is intriguing. I've read a great deal around aspects that I find particularly interesting. I was initially drawn to this case because I could not understand why Clarence Mitchell continually emphasised the importance of Jane Tanner's sighting but for months ignored the Smith family sighting.
There is much nonsense and chaff from both sides but I believe there are certain verifiable facts that we need to remember. So for instance it seems clear to me that the statement "nothing more was found" [following dog alerts in the McCann case] can be easily demolished if you consider the evidence. Following the dog alerts traces of human cellular material were found and tested in the UK. In terms of proving a link to Madeleine McCann we know that the FSS reported that the results were "too complex for meaningful interpretation".
Science doesn't stand still though - and it has been reported that methods are now available to allow for a more conclusive interpretation of the results. I'm sure everyone concerned with this case will be eager for a conclusive interpretation of the DNA analysis of human cellular material collected from areas where the dogs alerted.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on July 02, 2019, 01:50:03 AM
Thank you and hello.... The case is intriguing. I've read a great deal around aspects that I find particularly interesting. I was initially drawn to this case because I could not understand why Clarence Mitchell continually emphasised the importance of Jane Tanner's sighting but for months ignored the Smith family sighting.
There is much nonsense and chaff from both sides but I believe there are certain verifiable facts that we need to remember. So for instance it seems clear to me that the statement "nothing more was found" [following dog alerts in the McCann case] can be easily demolished if you consider the evidence. Following the dog alerts traces of human cellular material were found and tested in the UK. In terms of proving a link to Madeleine McCann we know that the FSS reported that the results were "too complex for meaningful interpretation".
Science doesn't stand still though - and it has been reported that methods are now available to allow for a more conclusive interpretation of the results. I'm sure everyone concerned with this case will be eager for a conclusive interpretation of the DNA analysis of human cellular material collected from areas where the dogs alerted.
Hi Billy Whizz FC & welcome. What is your basis for thinking that the mixed samples harvested from the car boot for forensics were solely representative of Keela's alert, given that the FSS could not identify the cellular material as blood?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 02, 2019, 03:34:04 AM
Thank you and hello.... The case is intriguing. I've read a great deal around aspects that I find particularly interesting. I was initially drawn to this case because I could not understand why Clarence Mitchell continually emphasised the importance of Jane Tanner's sighting but for months ignored the Smith family sighting.
... snip ...
I had my first clue to the Smith sighting and I'm quite excited to think they may have "Smithman" on video. I'm going to start a new thread on it so I can keep the information together.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 08:53:58 AM
No evidential reliability... Grimes own words. [too many ellipses hence makes the post nonsensical] and to me indicates the alerts themselves are unreliable.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 02, 2019, 09:32:14 AM
No evidential reliability... Grimes own words. In Jersey there were eleven alerts... A coconut.. Milk teeth which Grime has now onfirmed the dog would not have alerted to... And some bone fragments.. Possibly human
That's a pretty poor result and to me indicates the alerts themselves are unreliable.
It's quite obvious that a cadaber dog's alerts have 'no evidential reliability' on their own. As part of a collection of evidence, however, they can be very useful. They were used successfully in the D'Andre Lane case in Mitchigan and the David Gllroy case in Scotland. In my opinion it's only a matter of time until they are used more widely.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 02, 2019, 09:36:10 AM
It's quite obvious that a cadaber dog's alerts have 'no evidential reliability' on their own. As part of a collection of evidence, however, they can be very useful. They were used successfully in the D'Andre Lane case in Mitchigan and the David Gllroy case in Scotland. In my opinion it's only a matter of time until they are used more widely.
Heaven help us if justice is ever to be widely served based on the bark of a dog.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 02, 2019, 09:41:28 AM
It's quite obvious that a cadaber dog's alerts have 'no evidential reliability' on their own. As part of a collection of evidence, however, they can be very useful. They were used successfully in the D'Andre Lane case in Mitchigan and the David Gllroy case in Scotland. In my opinion it's only a matter of time until they are used more widely.
In the Jersey case they were found to be a diversion rather than a help... I think the same is, true in the McCann case... It's clear to me the alerts took the police in totally the wrong direction. In the Gilroy case I read the appeal court criticised the alert evidence.
Far from being accepted I see them being totally discredited if a proper defence was mounted against them.
You have constantly opposed the idea of scientific validation which is exactly what grime is now working on so you were, wrong there and I was right
They still have no scientific validation.. IMO Grime doesn't understand what it entails..
He might be an expert in dogs but I'm sure I have s much better understanding of scientific method.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 02, 2019, 10:13:50 AM
I do not think Eddie ever worked in America ... but I believe Martin Grime and Morse worked there ... on how many cases, I've no idea.
What nonsense!
"The FBI considers them -- Martin Grime and his 7-year-old, English Springer Spaniel, Eddie -- two of the best in the law enforcement specialty of canine forensics, able to find evidence everyone else missed.
"Yes, hopefully we will find Theresa Parker. Yes, we will hopefully find evidence," Grime said at an afternoon news conference with Sheriff Steve Wilson in the Walker County Seat of Lafayette on Thursday afternoon." Specialized K-9 to Aid in Ga. Search todaysthv.com
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 02, 2019, 11:55:54 AM
Hi Billy Whizz FC & welcome. What is your basis for thinking that the mixed samples harvested from the car boot for forensics were solely representative of Keela's alert, given that the FSS could not identify the cellular material as blood?
Hi Misty. It is feasible that the forensic scientists missed blood and by chance sampled some other human cellular material. It is also possible that this cellular material was from Madeleine McCann as well as at least two other people. The FSS couldn’t then provide a conclusive interpretation of the results but as I stated science moves forward and we now have scientists in the USA claiming that they would be able to offer a conclusive interpretation of the DNA analysis.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 02, 2019, 12:07:37 PM
No evidential reliability... Grimes own words. In Jersey there were eleven alerts... A coconut.. Milk teeth which Grime has now onfirmed the dog would not have alerted to... And some bone fragments.. Possibly human
That's a pretty poor result and to me indicates the alerts themselves are unreliable.
What Grimes means is that the dog alerting is not reliable stand alone evidence to prove a crime. The dogs can indicate to areas where such evidence may be found. The FBI, for example, would never use such techniques if they had no value in the search for evidence of human remains. What we actually can be sure of is that the dogs are in fact highly successful in finding areas where human blood and cellular material can be collected for analysis. I hope that the samples tested in the McCann case could one day lead to a conclusive interpretation.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 02, 2019, 12:31:07 PM
What Grimes means is that the dog alerting is not reliable stand alone evidence to prove a crime. The dogs can indicate to areas where such evidence may be found. The FBI, for example, would never use such techniques if they had no value in the search for evidence of human remains. What we actually can be sure of is that the dogs are in fact highly successful in finding areas where human blood and cellular material can be collected for analysis. I hope that the samples tested in the McCann case could one day lead to a conclusive interpretation.
So what did they find in Jersey and what did they find in PDL
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 02, 2019, 12:43:37 PM
Thank you and hello.... The case is intriguing. I've read a great deal around aspects that I find particularly interesting. I was initially drawn to this case because I could not understand why Clarence Mitchell continually emphasised the importance of Jane Tanner's sighting but for months ignored the Smith family sighting.
There is much nonsense and chaff from both sides but I believe there are certain verifiable facts that we need to remember. So for instance it seems clear to me that the statement "nothing more was found" [following dog alerts in the McCann case] can be easily demolished if you consider the evidence. Following the dog alerts traces of human cellular material were found and tested in the UK. In terms of proving a link to Madeleine McCann we know that the FSS reported that the results were "too complex for meaningful interpretation".
Science doesn't stand still though - and it has been reported that methods are now available to allow for a more conclusive interpretation of the results. I'm sure everyone concerned with this case will be eager for a conclusive interpretation of the DNA analysis of human cellular material collected from areas where the dogs alerted.
When did the Smith sighting become known in the public domain?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on July 02, 2019, 12:46:07 PM
When did the Smith sighting become known in the public domain?
You mean you don't know? I felt sure you would have a clipping about it stored away in your archives. [I have reported this post to John I said: "sniping - will alert offender". Stop it.]
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 02, 2019, 12:46:55 PM
So what did they find in Jersey and what did they find in PDL
If I'm understanding the situations correctly there has been no court cases involving the dog alerts at PdL or in Jersey as yet. Therefore Martin Grime has not had to give evidence in these cases.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 02, 2019, 12:49:36 PM
Hi Misty. It is feasible that the forensic scientists missed blood and by chance sampled some other human cellular material. It is also possible that this cellular material was from Madeleine McCann as well as at least two other people. The FSS couldn’t then provide a conclusive interpretation of the results but as I stated science moves forward and we now have scientists in the USA claiming that they would be able to offer a conclusive interpretation of the DNA analysis.
You say - "[it is possible] the cellular material was from Madeleine McCann as well as at least two other people' end quote
So, who are these two other people? It is impossible contrive DNA without knowing the DNA of at least one of the two other people. IMO
[This post was reported for misquoting member. Lace failed to quote the words "[it is possible] "]
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 02, 2019, 12:55:00 PM
"The FBI considers them -- Martin Grime and his 7-year-old, English Springer Spaniel, Eddie -- two of the best in the law enforcement specialty of canine forensics, able to find evidence everyone else missed.
"Yes, hopefully we will find Theresa Parker. Yes, we will hopefully find evidence," Grime said at an afternoon news conference with Sheriff Steve Wilson in the Walker County Seat of Lafayette on Thursday afternoon." Specialized K-9 to Aid in Ga. Search todaysthv.com
I was not able to locate your cite following the link provided ... but I did locate it here ... http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com/2007/09/specialized-k-9-to-aid-in-georgia.html Hardly unprejudiced as far as the promotion of Eddie and Keela are concerned 🙄
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 02, 2019, 01:10:28 PM
I'm saying you didn't quote it properly. " It is also possible that this cellular material was from Madeleine McCann as well as at least two other people." is the full sentence not "this cellular material was from Madeleine McCann as well as at least two other people" as you originally quoted it.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 02, 2019, 01:15:26 PM
I'm saying you didn't quote it properly. " It is also possible that this cellular material was from Madeleine McCann as well as at least two other people." is the full sentence not "this cellular material was from Madeleine McCann as well as at least two other people" as you originally quoted it.
Please may we stop this before it starts.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 02, 2019, 01:19:17 PM
I'm saying you didn't quote it properly. " It is also possible that this cellular material was from Madeleine McCann as well as at least two other people." is the full sentence not "this cellular material was from Madeleine McCann as well as at least two other people" as you originally quoted it.
Ok 8((()*/
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 02, 2019, 02:08:26 PM
If I'm understanding the situations correctly there has been no court cases involving the dog alerts at PdL or in Jersey as yet. Therefore Martin Grime has not had to give evidence in these cases.
We know what the dogs discovered... Grime had already made a statement
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 02:56:22 PM
You are, way off the mark as usual... I'm not in the slightest riled about anything in this case..that's a typical ignorant.... In the true sense of the word. ...sceptic comment
It's also as hom... Any chance you could address the substance of the post rather than the poster
Note to Rob... In the English language the word ignorant is used to mean a lack of knowledge.... Im not using it as an insult
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 02, 2019, 03:35:55 PM
I'm watching a UK Customs programme. They use drugs dogs on incoming packages because the dogs speed up searching mucho.
Doggie #1 alerts to two packages. Don't ask me why but the Customs Officers are obliged to get permission to open the packages.
While they wait ...
They trot up doggie #2, who also picks out the suspect packages.
Then doggie #3, who alerts, and doggie #4, who also alerts.
Doggies 2-4 were considered to be on training, as the Officers had as then not been given permission to open the packages. What had they been training on?
Then permission was given to proceed.
The shipment was books wrapped in cling film. When opened, the books were hollowed out, and under a fairly simple blocker were packets of cocaine.
Total street value in excess of £1 million
That's 4 smart doggies, all for a reward of playing 'fetch' with a tennis ball.
And doggies 2-4 were training on cocaine. $6(&
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 04:04:08 PM
I'm watching a UK Customs programme. They use drugs dogs on incoming packages because the dogs speed up searching mucho.
Doggie #1 alerts to two packages. Don't ask me why but the Customs Officers are obliged to get permission to open the packages.
While they wait ...
They trot up doggie #2, who also picks out the suspect packages.
Then doggie #3, who alerts, and doggie #4, who also alerts.
Doggies 2-4 were considered to be on training, as the Officers had as then not been given permission to open the packages. What had they been training on?
Then permission was given to proceed.
The shipment was books wrapped in cling film. When opened, the books were hollowed out, and under a fairly simple blocker were packets of cocaine.
Total street value in excess of £1 million
That's 4 smart doggies, all for a reward of playing 'fetch' with a tennis ball.
And doggies 2-4 were training on cocaine. $6(&
excellent example of dogs doing what they are trained for...finding evidence....I wonder how many times these dogs alert and nothing is found.
note the drugs were wrapped in cling film yet the brilliant dog still alerted....when the baby seat in the lane case was wrapped in brown paper morse failed to alert...of course the fact Grime couldnt see it when it was wrapped may have had something to do with it
Another note to moderators... I'm not accusing Grime of anything dishonest but.... Is there any evidence that unconscious operator cuing does or does not affect the alerts. If Grime wants to be taken seriously scientifically this is something he needs to look at
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 02, 2019, 05:08:43 PM
I'm watching a UK Customs programme. They use drugs dogs on incoming packages because the dogs speed up searching mucho.
Doggie #1 alerts to two packages. Don't ask me why but the Customs Officers are obliged to get permission to open the packages.
While they wait ...
They trot up doggie #2, who also picks out the suspect packages.
Then doggie #3, who alerts, and doggie #4, who also alerts.
Doggies 2-4 were considered to be on training, as the Officers had as then not been given permission to open the packages. What had they been training on?
Then permission was given to proceed.
The shipment was books wrapped in cling film. When opened, the books were hollowed out, and under a fairly simple blocker were packets of cocaine.
Total street value in excess of £1 million
That's 4 smart doggies, all for a reward of playing 'fetch' with a tennis ball.
And doggies 2-4 were training on cocaine. $6(&
Therefore the alert made by dog #1 whose name we do not know, was corroborated by three others trained and training in the same discipline and the contraband was subsequently found and recovered.
The alerts made by Eddie were not corroborated by other cadaver dogs ... although the CSI dog trained only to alert to blood alerted to the car key fob and at the couch in 5A as Eddie did; nor was any contraband in the form of human remains recovered.
The contraband was proof of the intelligence supplied by the drug dogs; there was no forensic proof for the intelligence supplied by Eddie.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 02, 2019, 06:09:26 PM
You are, way off the mark as usual... I'm not in the slightest riled about anything in this case..that's a typical ignorant.... In the true sense of the word. ...sceptic comment
It's also as hom... Any chance you could address the substance of the post rather than the poster
Note to Rob... In the English language the word ignorant is used to mean a lack of knowledge.... Im not using it as an insult
Seriously, a 4.5 year old post?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 06:13:08 PM
really....things are not always as they seem...my phone....if there is no internet signal ...may load a page from some time ago and it appears current...thats obviously whats happened here
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 06:18:05 PM
No evidential reliability... Grimes own words. [too many ellipses hence makes the post nonsensical] and to me indicates the alerts themselves are unreliable.
you have once again unfairly edited my post...just because you dont understand it doesnt mean others dont. I do think the alerts are unreliable... what do you think no evidential reliabilty means...... Grime tells us that the alerts only give the possibility of cadaver odour another report to John re your editing of this post
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 06:25:18 PM
If I'm understanding the situations correctly there has been no court cases involving the dog alerts at PdL or in Jersey as yet. Therefore Martin Grime has not had to give evidence in these cases.
Grimes statemments are evidence...so he has given evidence
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 02, 2019, 06:34:25 PM
really....things are not always as they seem...my phone....if there is no internet signal ...may load a page from some time ago and it appears current...thats obviously whats happened here
I’m on my phone, so what?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 06:36:06 PM
excellent example of dogs doing what they are trained for...finding evidence....I wonder how many times these dogs alert and nothing is found.
note the drugs were wrapped in cling film yet the brilliant dog still alerted....when the baby seat in the lane case was wrapped in brown paper morse failed to alert...of course the fact Grime couldnt see it when it was wrapped may have had something to do with it
Another note to moderators... I'm not accusing Grime of anything dishonest but.... Is there any evidence that unconscious operator cuing does or does not affect the alerts. If Grime wants to be taken seriously scientifically this is something he needs to look at
"when the baby seat in the lane case was wrapped in brown paper morse failed to alert...of course the fact Grime couldnt see it when it was wrapped may have had something to do with it"
He said he couldn't see it even when it was partially opened.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 08:27:26 PM
If I'm understanding the situations correctly there has been no court cases involving the dog alerts at PdL or in Jersey as yet. Therefore Martin Grime has not had to give evidence in these cases.
I asked what was found...your post has no relevance to the question
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 02, 2019, 08:30:06 PM
I was not able to locate your cite following the link provided ... but I did locate it here ... http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com/2007/09/specialized-k-9-to-aid-in-georgia.html Hardly unprejudiced as far as the promotion of Eddie and Keela are concerned 🙄
Missing for nearly 6 months when Eddie was sent for!
Eddie The Crime Dog To Help In Hunt For Missing 911 Dispatcher
FBI Recruits Expert, K-9 From UK Thursday, September 13, 2007
A dog who is trained to find human remains has been brought in from the United Kingdom to help in the search for Theresa Parker, the Walker County 911 operator who has been missing for almost six months.
FBI Regional Director John Parrish said Martin Grimes and his English springer spaniel Eddie are some of the best in the world at finding bodies.
Walker County Sheriff Steve Wilson introduced Mr. Grimes and Eddie at a press conference in LaFayette on Thursday afternoon.
He said the search for Ms. Parker is "very active and ongoing."
Sheriff Wilson said the only "person of interest" remains Ms. Parker's husband, former LaFayette Police Sgt. Sam Parker.
Mr. Grimes, who said he is retired after 30 years with the UK Police, said Eddie is trained "to locate human remains - whole or in part."
He said he and Eddie plan to remain in LaFayette until this phase of the investigation is complete.
He declined to specify where or when they would be searching.
Director Parrish said the case has been declared "high priority" by the FBI and an agent has been assigned fulltime to it.
He said K-9s were used in April on the search and that "was very valuable to us." He said, "We have completed that phase and we are evolving into another phase."
Sheriff Wilson said in this phase, "We will go to areas that are of interest to us."
Mr. Grimes said he will be utilizing "a method we have used successfully in the UK."
"when the baby seat in the lane case was wrapped in brown paper morse failed to alert...of course the fact Grime couldnt see it when it was wrapped may have had something to do with it"
He said he couldn't see it even when it was partially opened.
he had been shown the package...he knew what it looked like. In sils post the dog smelt the scent through cling film...morse couldnt detect it through brown paper...thats a red flag to me
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 08:35:52 PM
Missing for nearly 6 months when Eddie was sent for!
Eddie The Crime Dog To Help In Hunt For Missing 911 Dispatcher
FBI Recruits Expert, K-9 From UK Thursday, September 13, 2007
A dog who is trained to find human remains has been brought in from the United Kingdom to help in the search for Theresa Parker, the Walker County 911 operator who has been missing for almost six months.
FBI Regional Director John Parrish said Martin Grimes and his English springer spaniel Eddie are some of the best in the world at finding bodies.
Walker County Sheriff Steve Wilson introduced Mr. Grimes and Eddie at a press conference in LaFayette on Thursday afternoon.
He said the search for Ms. Parker is "very active and ongoing."
did he find her...eddie usually finds nothing ata ll from what i can see ....PDl...jersey....lane....but Grime insists hes correct...i just dont believe it
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 02, 2019, 08:41:40 PM
nor was any contraband in the form of human remains recovered.
there was no forensic proof for the intelligence supplied by Eddie.
Aside from the human cellular material sent to the FSS lab for analysis. Of course there was no conclusive "proof" that all the contributors were corpses - but given Eddie's success at scenting corpses there is certainly a degree of likelihood that some of the human cellular material may well have come from a dead body. Could some of this cellular material have come from Madeleine McCann? As we know the limitations of the FSS's methods at that time led them to conclude that the results were "too complex to allow for a meaninful interpretation"
In their report: https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.
Why - ...
Well lets look at the question that is being asked
"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "
It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.
What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. it's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles. " ( https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm )
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 08:44:46 PM
Aside from the human cellular material sent to the FSS lab for analysis. Of course there was no conclusive "proof" that all the contributors were corpses - but given Eddie's success at scenting corpses there is certainly a degree of likelihood that some of the human cellular material may well have come from a dead body. Could some of this cellular material have come from Madeleine McCann? As we know the limitations of the FSS's methods at that time led them to conclude that the results were "too complex to allow for a meaninful interpretation"
In their report: https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.
Why - ...
Well lets look at the question that is being asked
"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "
It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.
What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. it's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles. " ( https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm )
what success does eddie have in scenting corpses..prior to PDL i think it was one verification in 5 years.... no corpses in pDL and none in Jersey
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 02, 2019, 08:47:19 PM
did he find her...eddie usually finds nothing ata ll from what i can see ....PDl...jersey....lane....but Grime insists hes correct...i just dont believe it
Eddie was shown in court in that case to help convict the husband and Theresa Parker's body was later found 30 miles away from where Eddie searched and alerted to cadaver scent. Eddie found nothing? To you unsurprisingly but not the police!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 08:49:36 PM
Eddie was shown in court in that case to help convict the husband and Theresa Parker's body was later found 30 miles away from where Eddie searched and alerted to cadaver scent. Eddie found nothing? To you unsurprisingly but not the police!
Do you have a cite... Eddie found nothing in pdl... Nothing in Jersey... Nothing in Detroit
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 02, 2019, 08:52:59 PM
Eddie was shown in court in that case to help convict the husband and Theresa Parker's body was later found 30 miles away from where Eddie searched and alerted to cadaver scent. Eddie found nothing? To you unsurprisingly but not the police!
This is from the Parker case..
During lengthy cross-examination Grime said there is no evidence to show Eddie smelled anything incriminating against or linked to Mr. Parker. Like Higgins, Grime said cadaver dogs can only prove useful when there is other evidence that corroborates the dog's "hits."
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 02, 2019, 08:56:17 PM
what success does eddie have in scenting corpses..prior to PDL i think it was one verification in 5 years.... no corpses in pDL
The FBI had a great deal of faith in Eddie's ability. "No corpses in PDL" - well certainly not a complete one but you are speculating if you claim with certainty that the human material tested by the FSS only came from living persons. In my opinion that is highly doubtful given the dogs ability to alert to human blood and cadaver odour.
The FSS said the results were too complex to allow for a meaningful interpretation. Until samples (or the data) are tested by more advanced science that is the only conclusion we can draw i.e we can't be certain that the cellular material was (or wasn't) from the corpse of Madeleine McCann.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 09:00:39 PM
The FBI had a great deal of faith in Eddie's ability. "No corpses in PDL" - well certainly not a complete one but you are speculating if you claim with certainty that the human material tested by the FSS only came from living persons. In my opinion that is highly doubtful given the dogs ability to alert to human blood and cadaver odour.
The FSS said the results were too complex to allow for a meaningful interpretation. Until samples (or the data) are tested by more advanced science that is the only conclusion we can draw i.e we can't be certain that the cellular material was (or wasn't) from the corpse of Madeleine McCann.
The only certain thing is we don't know...You are speculating
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 09:02:06 PM
Eddie was shown in court in that case to help convict the husband and Theresa Parker's body was later found 30 miles away from where Eddie searched and alerted to cadaver scent. Eddie found nothing? To you unsurprisingly but not the police!
You need to provide a cite... I think you are totally mistaken so let's see your cite
As Rob is reading this thread I'm sure he will insist on a cite
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 09:04:59 PM
During lengthy cross-examination Grime said there is no evidence to show Eddie smelled anything incriminating against or linked to Mr. Parker. Like Higgins, Grime said cadaver dogs can only prove useful when there is other evidence that corroborates the dog's "hits."
So in the Parker case Eddie found nothing again... He's certainly reliable at finding nothing
But eddie did manage to alert 30 miles from where the body was eventually found... What a great help that was
30 miles is practically spot on
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 02, 2019, 09:06:21 PM
You need to provide a cite... I think you are totally mistaken so let's see your cite
As Rob is reading this thread I'm sure he will insist on a cite
"...We also saw video played in the courtroom to demonstrate how another dog, Eddie, found a sample pair of pants hidden in the Walker County Jail that was perfumed with a cadaver scent. Eddie is an English Springer Spaniel belonging to Martin Grime, a world-renown forensic K-9 expert based in the United Kingdom.
Grime testified he was paid $450 a day, plus travel and living expenses, by the FBI to search some areas in Walker County in connection with Teresa Parker's disappearance.
During a visit to Parker's home back in September 2007 Grime said he and Eddie sniffed around their garage.
"He immediately gave a positive bark response within the garage between a truck parked to the left of the entrance and a boat parked to the right," Grime said.
The only certain thing is we don't know... You are speculating
I'm not speculating. I'm repeating what the FSS told us after their analysis.
You are the one who seems to imply Eddie found nothing. In actual fact, used with Keela, he assisted in the forensic team obtaining human cellular samples. The dogs alerts were indicators that evidence of interest is likely to be found in these areas.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 09:09:13 PM
"...We also saw video played in the courtroom to demonstrate how another dog, Eddie, found a sample pair of pants hidden in the Walker County Jail that was perfumed with a cadaver scent. Eddie is an English Springer Spaniel belonging to Martin Grime, a world-renown forensic K-9 expert based in the United Kingdom.
Grime testified he was paid $450 a day, plus travel and living expenses, by the FBI to search some areas in Walker County in connection with Teresa Parker's disappearance.
During a visit to Parker's home back in September 2007 Grime said he and Eddie sniffed around their garage.
"He immediately gave a positive bark response within the garage between a truck parked to the left of the entrance and a boat parked to the right," Grime said.
Funny that. I lost a pair of pants in Walker County Jail a few years back while on Soap Patrol. Not my best day out. This doggo is awesome, always finding the thing he's trained to find.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 02, 2019, 09:12:03 PM
Eddie is trained to help recover and find evidence... Hr doesn't seem to be much help
And why would you think that a body would still be in the same place where Eddie alerted 6 months later? The body was found 30 miles away from where he searched. His job is to detect cadaver scent months later and if he does alert the police pay close attention! I'm not surprised the Madeleine McCann case is still on-going 12 years later.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 09:21:35 PM
And why would you think that a body would still be in the same place where Eddie alerted 6 months later? The body was found 30 miles away from where he searched. His job is to detect cadaver scent months later and if he does alert the police pay close attention! I'm not surprised the Madeleine McCann case is still on-going 12 years later.
So eddie did not find Parker's body... Eddie found nothing... Again
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 02, 2019, 09:24:19 PM
The body was 30 miles away so how would he find it? @)(++(*
So he didn't find it.... He found his ususl nothing
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 02, 2019, 09:30:36 PM
I understand that we can argue over the cellular material that was found but to write off the dogs alerts as useless is just fanciful in my opinion. The FBI would never use their alerts as indicators if that was the case.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 09:32:50 PM
I understand that we can argue over the cellular material that was found but to write off the dogs alerts as useless is just fanciful in my opinion. The FBI would never use their alerts as indicators if that was the case.
It might be fanciful in your opinion but not in mine... The dogs are trained to find evidence... What good have the alerts been this case... No help whatsoever
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 02, 2019, 09:34:04 PM
I understand that we can argue over the cellular material that was found but to write off the dogs alerts as useless is just fanciful in my opinion. The FBI would never use their alerts as indicators if that was the case.
When will you understand the role of the dogs is to find evidence... That's what the FBI use them for
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 09:36:13 PM
What do you think... If you are going to continually contradict me it might be s good idea to know the facts
I found this statement by Grime: "Please refer to my original report included in the summary (MG/1). The interpretation of any alert is given when the dogs recognize a specific odour as a result of a response to the behaviour for which they were trained. This response must then be submitted to a forensic examination in order to draw conclusions." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
And: "There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog."
So far he is only trained to alert when he finds odours he was trained to find.
Odours not evidence. Odours not things.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 09:48:12 PM
I found this statement by Grime: "Please refer to my original report included in the summary (MG/1). The interpretation of any alert is given when the dogs recognize a specific odour as a result of a response to the behaviour for which they were trained. This response must then be submitted to a forensic examination in order to draw conclusions." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
And: "There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog."
So far he is only trained to alert when he finds odours he was trained to find.
Odours not evidence. Odours not things.
I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training.
That's from Grimes statement.... Odours are not forensically recoverable evidence
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 02, 2019, 09:52:15 PM
How long is it there for..would it have lasted 3 months in 5a 3months in the outside flower bed ..what does the evidence tell us
Eddie detected Theresa Parker's cadaver scent 6 months later in a garage before her body was moved 30 miles away.
"Grime said Eddie then "hit" on an abandoned house next door. Testimony shows that house was never repaired after a fire gutted the inside and killed a child several years ago."
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 02, 2019, 09:57:45 PM
Eddie detected Theresa Parker's cadaver scent 6 months later in a garage before her body was moved 30 miles away.
"Grime said Eddie then "hit" on an abandoned house next door. Testimony shows that house was never repaired after a fire gutted the inside and killed a child several years ago."
Eddie is the man. No wonder 'supporters' are desperate to disparage his talents.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 09:57:56 PM
And that is of no surprise to anyone but you being 30 miles away from where Eddie searched. The police will be taking Eddie and Keela alerts very seriously!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 10:08:13 PM
Dogs are only if any real use when they find evidence Eddie found the body of Attracta Harron.. Well done Eddie
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 10:09:57 PM
And that is of no surprise to anyone but you being 30 miles away from where Eddie searched. The police will be taking Eddie and Keela alerts very seriously!
Of course they will... They will have a good look to see if the digs have detected any evidence
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 10:11:36 PM
Dies anyone here know what EVRD means... In relation to dogs... It describes eddies role
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 02, 2019, 10:13:43 PM
Dies anyone here know what EVRD means... In relation to dogs... It describes eddies role
'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.)
He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent' odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent sample.
'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.)
He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent' odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent sample.
Not according to Grime... Grime said the dog located the body.. I think Grime knows best
Technically he's right, although you quote out of context. The dog alerted to Tetramethylethylenediamine or Pentanediamine atoms discharged from the body, atoms which previously belonged to the body, therefore the dog alerted to the body. I think Grime knows best.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 10:28:51 PM
Technically he's right, although you quote out of context. The dog alerted to Tetramethylethylenediamine or Pentanediamine atoms discharged from the body, atoms which previously belonged to the body, therefore the dog alerted to the body.
Glad you graciously concede Grime is right... Good of me to defend him...
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 02, 2019, 10:32:09 PM
It might be fanciful in your opinion but not in mine... The dogs are trained to find evidence... What good have the alerts been this case... No help whatsoever
They have been helpful. They have indicated to a team of forensic investigators that there are certain areas where they may find samples of interest. Guess what? That's exactly what they did find! It's not the dogs fault that the limited FSS methods at the time found the evidence "too complex" to allow for meaningful interpretation.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 02, 2019, 10:45:08 PM
An interesting excerpt from a University paper with input from Grime, which appears to suggest Eddie could not be classed as a human remains detection dog. Therefore anything he alerted do could not be officially classed as human remains imo.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2019, 10:49:16 PM
They have been helpful. They have indicated to a team of forensic investigators that there are certain areas where they may find samples of interest. Guess what? That's exactly what they did find! It's not the dogs fault that the limited FSS methods at the time found the evidence "too complex" to allow for meaningful interpretation.
So at present the samples recovered were of no use...as I have said..
Goodnight
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 02, 2019, 10:56:49 PM
So at present the samples recovered were of no use...as I have said..
Goodnight
US forensics expert Dr Mark Perlin may find the samples (or the FSS data) useful. He believes new techniques of DNA analysis will be able to interpret what was "too complex" for the FSS.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 03, 2019, 01:39:49 AM
An interesting excerpt from a University paper with input from Grime, which appears to suggest Eddie could not be classed as a human remains detection dog. Therefore anything he alerted do could not be officially classed as human remains imo.
Was Morse the real deal and Eddie the experimental prototype?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on July 03, 2019, 02:39:37 AM
Was Morse the real deal and Eddie the experimental prototype?
From Grime's personal profile, which appears to have been written before he went to Luz in Aug 2007
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm *snipped* "I also have a six-month old English Springer spaniel dog, puppy, in training, Morse".
So, one handler with 3 dogs. Grime was in Jersey in Feb 2008 for around 3 months with Eddie & Keela, no mention of Morse or his training. Did his initial training also involve the use of decomposing piglets? It's unclear for how long Grime + dog(s) were in USA working with Stockham on a specialist programme & how many times Morse was deployed on a live exercise prior to the Bianca Jones case. Was he the real deal? I've no idea, after Stockham described Grime in court as an Animal Behavioural Specialist from the UK.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 03, 2019, 03:35:24 AM
An interesting excerpt from a University paper with input from Grime, which appears to suggest Eddie could not be classed as a human remains detection dog. Therefore anything he alerted do could not be officially classed as human remains imo.
As I understand it Eddie was trained on human remains so was a human remains detection dog. He may have started with pig cadavers but progressed to human remains.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 03, 2019, 04:53:44 AM
As I understand it Eddie was trained on human remains so was a human remains detection dog. He may have started with pig cadavers but progressed to human remains.
I am not sure that can be wholly true, nor that it matters if it was true.
I understand that human body farms are legal only in the US and latterly Australia.
For UK certification, dogs had to be trained/tested to ACPO standards on a 6 month cycle, which did not use human body parts.
Whilst somewhere or other Grime said that if pork was used to test US dogs trained on human body parts, the dogs all alerted.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 03, 2019, 06:43:06 AM
It might be fanciful in your opinion but not in mine... The dogs are trained to find evidence... What good have the alerts been this case... No help whatsoever
Is it the efficacy of all cadaver dogs that you dispute or Eddie specifically?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 03, 2019, 07:37:32 AM
Hi and welcome to the forum Billy Whizz Fan Club
I'm new to this case but have a layperson's understanding of LCN DNA through looking at another case. You seem pretty knowledgeable, so a couple of questions if I may:
1. The biological samples collected in this case were as a result of the dog alerts?
2. As I understand it LCN is used to amplify small samples of DNA where the source material is unknown ie skin cells, sweat, blood etc?
3. In this case has the biological source been identified or is the assumption blood based on the dog alert?
4. Given we are all shedding bits and pieces all the time ie skin cells, hair etc if the case involves a stranger abduction from 5A would he/she have left behind some DNA evidence?
5. If the answer to 3 above is yes this would clearly present problems as he/she would not be the only person depositing DNA in 5A. Potentially all those who have ever entered 5A would leave a trail of DNA although with time this would degrade to such an extent it would be beyond testing? Anyhow for it to be useful to investigators it would require a match ie a sample from a suspect or a database?
6. Why do some soc's not yield any DNA eg Dr Lyn and Megan Russell while other similar soc's do eg The Ripper (scarf of a victim)?
Any links to 'DNA for Dummies' or similar would be appreciated. Thanks
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 07:45:57 AM
Is it the efficacy of all cadaver dogs that you dispute or Eddie specifically?
I don't dispute the efficacy of all detection dogs in general.. Cadaver, drug, explosive etc. I think they are all valuable tools. What I dispute is the value humans put on unconfirmed alerts... Because we simply don't know their value.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 03, 2019, 08:42:35 AM
I don't dispute the efficacy of all detection dogs in general.. Cadaver, drug, explosive etc. I think they are all valuable tools. What I dispute is the value humans put on unconfirmed alerts... Because we simply don't know their value.
Well I had a thread discussing what confirms a cadaver dog alert. Look I can't remember you coming up with an answer. What would satisfy you that a cadaver dog alert is confirmed?
Would you only be happy if a body or major body part is located at the place where the alert happened?
I see in the White paper Grime defines what he considers confirmation of an alert. Can't copy it, but it is subsection 8.0 on page 12 titled "Corroboration of VRD Responses.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 09:08:58 AM
Well I had a thread discussing what confirms a cadaver dog alert. Look I can't remember you coming up with an answer. What would satisfy you that a cadaver dog alert is confirmed?
Would you only be happy if a body or major body part is located at the place where the alert happened?
I see in the White paper Grime defines what he considers confirmation of an alert. Can't copy it, but it is subsection 8.0 on page 12 titled "Corroboration of VRD Responses.
I did come up with an answer... Martin Grimes answer
As I have said... Grime had now moved the goalposts. In 2007 he said the alerts had not been confirmed because no remains hard been found... He now seems to have changed his mind. Grime now says that anecdotal witness statements can corroborate the alerts... Although the degree of corroboration affects the weight of the evidence.
That us an incredible seismic shift and I believe has been influenced by his experience in the US.... I've got a lot more to say on the topic of Grime and will post it later He also includes proficiency testing and successful field missions... It now seems if he says they are corroborated then they are... Martin Grime.... A man on a mission
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 03, 2019, 09:30:41 AM
Maybe you did, as I say I felt I got nowhere with that thread about corroboration of cadaver alerts.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Angelo222 on July 03, 2019, 09:43:01 AM
For the sake of clarity, Eddie was an EVRD which meant that his primary role was to find the bodies of victims which by default meant finding evidence. I don't think that can be any clearer?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 09:45:51 AM
I did come up with an answer... Martin Grimes answer
As I have said... Grime had now moved the goalposts. In 2007 he said the alerts had not been confirmed because no remains hard been found... He now seems to have changed his mind. Grime now says that anecdotal witness statements can corroborate the alerts... Although the degree of corroboration affects the weight of the evidence.
That us an incredible seismic shift and I believe has been influenced by his experience in the US.... I've got a lot more to say on the topic of Grime and will post it later He also includes proficiency testing and successful field missions... It now seems if he says they are corroborated then they are... Martin Grime.... A man on a mission
I don't think Grime's opinion has changed at all. He always believed in his dogs because they were almost always right when tested in training, assessments and operationally. He always knew that alerts had to be corroberatedin order to be used as evidence in court. He now has proof that the corroberating evidence can be circumstantial, that's all.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 03, 2019, 09:53:59 AM
They have been helpful. They have indicated to a team of forensic investigators that there are certain areas where they may find samples of interest. Guess what? That's exactly what they did find! It's not the dogs fault that the limited FSS methods at the time found the evidence "too complex" to allow for meaningful interpretation.
Exactly. I'm not interest in analysing the efficacy or science behind the detection method. It could be a sharp-eyed detective who finds a bullet casing that everyone missed - it's the analysis and subsequent results and interpretation of those results thereafter that is contentious / admissible / not admissible evidentially. I've said it before - if Eddie, Morse or Keela were 60% right, so what? They're a detection tool. Ground penetrating radar needs you to dig down to an anomaly; a lot of the time there's b....r all down there, it's nowhere near an exact science, but it's pretty useful. You'd rather have the tools than not.
The problem we have here is that the 'finds' of the dogs don't jive with some supporters paradigm; to the point where their efficacy needs to be denigrated. Mr McCann started this process himself in quite a vociferous manner.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 09:58:33 AM
I don't think Grime's opinion has changed at all. He always believed in his dogs because they were almost always right when tested in training, assessments and operationally. He always knew that alerts had to be corroberatedin order to be used as evidence in court. He now has proof that the corroberating evidence can be circumstantial, that's all.
Cite for... He has proof.... He absolutely doesnt He thinks he has but Grime is not a scientist..
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 10:01:38 AM
Exactly. I'm not interest in analysing the efficacy or science behind the detection method. It could be a sharp-eyed detective who finds a bullet casing that everyone missed - it's the analysis and subsequent results and interpretation of those results thereafter that is contentious / admissible / not admissible evidentially. I've said it before - if Eddie, Morse or Keela were 60% right, so what? They're a detection tool. Ground penetrating radar needs you to dig down to an anomaly; a lot of the time there's b....r all down there, it's nowhere near an exact science, but it's pretty useful. You'd rather have the tools than not.
The problem we have here is that the 'finds' of the dogs don't jive with some supporters paradigm; to the point where their efficacy needs to be denigrated. Mr McCann started this process himself in quite a vociferous manner.
The problem is Grime now thinks he has scientific support for his, alerts... He doesn't. As a sceptic all I'm saying us I don't accept the, alerts or Grimes claims without some sort of decent evidence to support them.. I think that's a much more sensible approach
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 03, 2019, 10:04:54 AM
For the sake of clarity, Eddie was an EVRD which meant that his primary role was to find the bodies of victims which by default meant finding evidence. I don't think that can be any clearer?
In the often talked about White paper by Martin Grime he calls ERVD dogs now Human Remains Detection dogs HRDD. and he defines their roles on page 7 or page 12/187 of the whole document.
There are also HRTEDD dogs that are trained for detecting trace evidence. (I sure Eddie was one of these dogs)
They smell trace of odour resulting from the direct or indirect transference of odour from a source. There is no scientific test that can confirm this type of alert.
Definitely not bodies found most of the time, but transference of odour.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 10:08:21 AM
The problem is Grime now thinks he has scientific support for his, alerts... He doesn't. As a sceptic all I'm saying us I don't accept the, alerts or Grimes claims without some sort of decent evidence to support them.. I think that's a much more sensible approach
Again, apart from you, who cares if you don't accept the alerts or Grime thinks he has scientific support? He is running a business after all. Law enforcement all over the USA are chomping at the bit to deploy him and doggo and they're getting ringing endorsements. Woof.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 10:21:41 AM
Again, apart from you, who cares if you don't accept the alerts or Grime thinks he has scientific support? He is running a business after all. Law enforcement all over the USA are chomping at the bit to deploy him and doggo and they're getting ringing endorsements. Woof.
I don't see anyone chomping at the bit... I have very good answers to all your points, and will post later when I'm not busy... I think I know why the prosecutors wanted grime and not a n other dog handler
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 10:25:55 AM
The problem is Grime now thinks he has scientific support for his, alerts... He doesn't. As a sceptic all I'm saying us I don't accept the, alerts or Grimes claims without some sort of decent evidence to support them.. I think that's a much more sensible approach
Stockham carried out blind and double blind tests on Morse. Are such tests unscientific? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMjH36h2PwE
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 10:32:17 AM
Stockham carried out blind and double blind tests on Morse. Are such tests unscientific? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMjH36h2PwE
I haven't looked yet.. They may be basically scientific but totally inadequate ...with little scientific value... Grime and Stickhan are not scientists
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 03, 2019, 10:32:41 AM
I don't see anyone chomping at the bit... I have very good answers to all your points, and will post later when I'm not busy... I think I know why the prosecutors wanted grime and not a n other dog handler
I get your drift, nudge nudge, use a sympathetic doggo and handler to secure a spurious conviction. What? Not my words. Not my opinion. I'm out. I've received a minimal warning for something about language apparently. Which I think is **** *** ******** **** *****. **** *******.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 10:35:27 AM
I get your drift, nudge nudge, use a sympathetic doggo and handler to secure a spurious conviction. What? Not my words. Not my opinion. I'm out. I've received a minimal warning for something about language apparently. Which I think is **** *** ******** **** *****. **** *******.
You might think you get my drift but it would be better to wait for my explanation
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 03, 2019, 10:37:35 AM
I don't see anyone chomping at the bit... I have very good answers to all your points, and will post later when I'm not busy... I think I know why the prosecutors wanted grime and not a n other dog handler
Do you have a cite showing that the prosecutors asked for Grime to do the job?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 10:51:18 AM
For the sake of clarity, Eddie was an EVRD which meant that his primary role was to find the bodies of victims which by default meant finding evidence. I don't think that can be any clearer?
That is exactly the point I was making... And is factual
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 10:53:09 AM
Have I made that claim... Why was Grime involved... Whose decision was it
May be because of his unquestionable experience, his unblemished record and unimpeachable character that drew the attention of prosecutors across the globe. Like a lot of expert witnesses, for example.
Edit: Moreover, he is so highly sought after, post his most high-profile job, the McCann case, which apparently was a total failure and of no evidential value. What an interesting paradox we have here.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 11:05:16 AM
May be because of his unquestionable experience, his unblemished record and unimpeachable character that drew the attention of prosecutors across the globe. Like a lot of expert witnesses, for example.
Edit: Moreover, he is so highly sought after, post his most high-profile job, the McCann case, which apparently was a total failure and of no evidential value. What an interesting paradox we have here.
Grime managed to get a very lucrative contract based on the video of his time in PDL... What dies that tell us
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 11:05:38 AM
I haven't looked yet.. They may be basically scientific but totally inadequate ...with little scientific value... Grime and Stickhan are not scientists
I don't know if a person needs to be a scientist to set up scientific tests. Stockham had a degree in Chemistry and a Masters in Forensic Science, He had peer reviewed scientific articles published in Forensic Science Communication and Forensic Science International. https://swgdog.fiu.edu/membership/in-memory-of-rex-stockham/
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 03, 2019, 11:08:04 AM
Grime managed to get a very lucrative contract based on the video of his time in PDL... What dies that tell us
$450 a day plus expenses is not 'very lucrative'. What does it tell us though? That his services are highly valued. I know what you're driving at, just say it. If there's any substance to it, you needn't worry.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 11:09:39 AM
I don't know if a person needs to be a scientist to set up scientific tests. Stockham had a degree in Chemistry and a Masters in Forensic Science, He had peer reviewed scientific articles published in Forensic Science Communication and Forensic Science International. https://swgdog.fiu.edu/membership/in-memory-of-rex-stockham/
Yeh, dude wears a white lab coat and oversized safety glasses - scientist. What other credentials would one want?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 03, 2019, 11:10:53 AM
According to you it was because the prosecutors wanted him. Are you now withdrawing that statement?
No I'm not... So who do you think wanted him... Question..
Has any American dog handler appeared in court and made the claims grime has... Was grime headhunter because he was the only person willing to make the claims that resulted in the alerts being admissable... In what other US cases have the alerts been admitted
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 11:16:57 AM
I don't know if a person needs to be a scientist to set up scientific tests. Stockham had a degree in Chemistry and a Masters in Forensic Science, He had peer reviewed scientific articles published in Forensic Science Communication and Forensic Science International. https://swgdog.fiu.edu/membership/in-memory-of-rex-stockham/
So what peer review papers do we have fir the alerts... Stockham said he was setting up a scientific programme... Did he ever do it
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 03, 2019, 11:44:43 AM
Exactly. I'm not interest in analysing the efficacy or science behind the detection method. It could be a sharp-eyed detective who finds a bullet casing that everyone missed - it's the analysis and subsequent results and interpretation of those results thereafter that is contentious / admissible / not admissible evidentially. I've said it before - if Eddie, Morse or Keela were 60% right, so what? They're a detection tool. Ground penetrating radar needs you to dig down to an anomaly; a lot of the time there's b....r all down there, it's nowhere near an exact science, but it's pretty useful. You'd rather have the tools than not.
The problem we have here is that the 'finds' of the dogs don't jive with some supporters paradigm; to the point where their efficacy needs to be denigrated. Mr McCann started this process himself in quite a vociferous manner.
If ground penetrating radar indicated that something was there, you dug and found nothing, would the radar indications be used in court as evidence that something was there?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 11:45:04 AM
$450 a day plus expenses is not 'very lucrative'. What does it tell us though? That his services are highly valued. I know what you're driving at, just say it. If there's any substance to it, you needn't worry.
What is the normal rate for a police dog handler... 450 seven days, a, week whether working or not... Plus expenses... Grime complained about his hotel room and was upgraded
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 03, 2019, 11:52:20 AM
What is the normal rate for a police dog handler... 450 seven days, a, week whether working or not... Plus expenses... Grime complained about his hotel room and was upgraded
$450 a day is about £350. Self-employed that's a relatively low rate. If you don't like your hotel room, you complain and get another one. I'm surprised you find that noteworthy, as if it's some kind of character flaw. There's innumerable reasons why you ask to swap room; cigarette smells, right next to the elevators, right next to a noisy fire door, right next to an extractor fan, room facing the downstairs nightclub, crack den next door, can't accommodate a man and a dog comfortably. You seem bent on chipping away at the man's integrity.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 11:54:29 AM
$450 a day is about £350. Self-employed that's a relatively low rate. If you don't like your hotel room, you complain and get another one. I'm surprised you find that noteworthy, as if it's some kind of character flaw. There's innumerable reasons why you ask to swap room; cigarette smells, right next to the elevators, right next to a noisy fire door, right next to an extractor fan, room facing the downstairs nightclub, crack den next door, can't accommodate a man and a dog comfortably. You seem bent on chipping away at the man's integrity.
I'm stating some facts... We have to disagree Grimes contract was or wsdnt lucrative for a police dog handler
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 03, 2019, 12:04:35 PM
I'm stating some facts... We have to disagree Grimes contract was or wsdnt lucrative for a police dog handler
Being self-employed I can tell you that I wouldn't consider $450 a day + expenses as lucrative to trapse over to Jerkwater, Nebraska, dog in toe. I consider it a loss leader; do a good job in the hope of attracting more work in my specialist and much sought-after field.
So what's the pertinence of your point that he moved hotel rooms?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 12:05:55 PM
Being self-employed I can tell you that I wouldn't consider $450 a day + expenses as lucrative to trapse over to Jerkwater, Nebraska, dog in toe. I consider it a loss leader; do a good job in the hope of attracting more work in my specialist and much-sought after field.
So what's the pertinence of your point that he moved hotel rooms?
It depends what you do..
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 03, 2019, 12:16:00 PM
It does. It would seem quite lucrative for an apprentice Spoon Whittler from Wakefield.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 12:32:52 PM
This is my take on the Grime situation...To me Grime is a man on amission.all my opinion but with some facts as well. Its along answer so may come in sections.
Grime trains detection dogs and is relatively skilled at it...I dont beleive from what I have read its a particularly difficult thing to do. Detection dogs in all fields have been judged on what they find. Drug dogs find drugs and that confirms their alerts. I wonder how many times they alert and nothing is found. Eddie was a cadaver dog and is trained to find human remains....Harrison confirms this in his statement and according to harrison thats why Eddie was sent to PDL.
The problem is cadaver dogs seem to alert regularly where nothing tangible is found. This certainly happened in PDL...Jersey and Detroit. As I see it Grime wanted to take his cadaver dogs to a new level...a level where not just the evidence founfd but the alerts themselves were treated as evidence.
his statements in Luz made it clear that alerts would only be corroborated if remains were found..he now appears to have made a seismic shift in what he considers corroboration...and imo ...its difficult to justify such a dramatic shift.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 12:41:20 PM
Grime seems to want to elevate cadaver dogs to a new level... a level where much more credence is palced on the alerts and thats why hes decided that he needs scientific validation to acchieve that. grime..imo..is on a mission to elevate the staus of cadaver dogs.
So how could he achieve this. He had probably read about Stockham in the US. So did Stockam and the FBI approach grime or did grime approach the FBi and offer his services. in Stockham grime would have seen someone who shared his vision.
The problem then is did Grime and Stockham deliver...Ive seen nothing to suggest they have...but to me Grime seems to think he did. I feel grime now feels his alerts have scientific basis and therefore corroboration is not so stringent. If thats the case then the evidence for it needs to be published so it can be challenged....
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 03, 2019, 12:43:22 PM
This is my take on the Grime situation...To me Grime is a man on amission.all my opinion but with some facts as well. Its along answer so may come in sections.
Grime trains detection dogs and is relatively skilled at it...I dont beleive from what I have read its a particularly difficult thing to do. Detection dogs in all fields have been judged on what they find. Drug dogs find drugs and that confirms their alerts. I wonder how many times they alert and nothing is found. Eddie was a cadaver dog and is trained to find human remains....Harrison confirms this in his statement and according to harrison thats why Eddie was sent to PDL.
The problem is cadaver dogs seem to alert regularly where nothing tangible is found. This certainly happened in PDL...Jersey and Detroit. As I see it Grime wanted to take his cadaver dogs to a new level...a level where not just the evidence founfd but the alerts themselves were treated as evidence.
his statements in Luz made it clear that alerts would only be corroborated if remains were found..he now appears to have made a seismic shift in what he considers corroboration...and imo ...its difficult to justify such a dramatic shift.
You make him sound like a snake oil salesman, foisting his questionable wares on an ignorant, buck-toothed, hick populous, then doubling down by stating that it now banishes demons. He's clearly trying to grow his business and where better than states that actively innovate and usher in new / different detection techniques.
As for this continued 'remains were found' mantra, as I elaborated yesterday, vestiges of remains, is remains, is evidence. Don't you think it's even more impressive that the dog alerts to the place where the remains / cadaver used to be? That's doubling down! No, let's go one further, not only can the dog find actual remains, the dog can tell us where that body was stored! So you're actually, inadvertently, enhancing the abilities of the dogs.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 12:49:34 PM
So why was Grime sought out for the Lane case. I think its because Stockham is dead but Grime is carrying on his beliefs in the value of the alerts. grime was willing to stae his dogs are scientiffically tested and have passed those tests with ahigh rtae of accuracy...the way the evidence was presented I cant see how the jury could not see it as a confirmation of death ..which it isnt.
Grime is presenting his dogs as the real deal...with a high degree of reliability backed by scientific test. From what Ive seen they arent. Placing contamination on a few carpet squares and seeing if the dog reacts is not a reliable guide to the value of alerts in the field...it just isnt proper science...as lanes attorney said,,...its junk science
grime beleives his dogs...he now believes they have scientific validation...thats dangerous..imo
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 12:53:02 PM
You make him sound like a snake oil salesman, foisting his questionable wares on an ignorant, buck-toothed, hick populous, then doubling down by stating that it now banishes demons. He's clearly trying to grow his business and where better than states that actively innovate and usher in new / different detection techniques.
As for this continued 'remains were found' mantra, as I elaborated yesterday, vestiges of remains, is remains, is evidence. Don't you think it's even more impressive that the dog alerts to the place where the remains / cadaver used to be? That's doubling down! No, let's go one further, not only can the dog find actual remains, the dog can tell us where that body was stored! So you're actually, inadvertently, enhancing the abilities of the dogs.
THe remains were found is not my mantra..It was Grimes mantra...established vestiges count as remains...a few dna cells dont.
There is no evidence that the alerts to where a body was stored is relaible...you can beleive it...I want evidence
you have made an important point today as you did yesterday
Grime is trying to grow his business...good point
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 12:53:47 PM
No I'm not... So who do you think wanted him... Question..
Has any American dog handler appeared in court and made the claims grime has... Was grime headhunter because he was the only person willing to make the claims that resulted in the alerts being admissable... In what other US cases have the alerts been admitted
Your post #384 snip/ I think I know why the prosecutors wanted grime and not a n other dog handler
In my opinion you need to provide the cite I requested to support your statement.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 12:56:16 PM
So why was Grime sought out for the Lane case. I think its because Stockham is dead but Grime is carrying on his beliefs in the value of the alerts. grime was willing to stae his dogs are scientiffically tested and have passed those tests with ahigh rtae of accuracy...the way the evidence was presented I cant see how the jury could not see it as a confirmation of death ..which it isnt.
Grime is presenting his dogs as the real deal...with a high degree of reliability backed by scientific test. From what Ive seen they arent. Placing contamination on a few carpet squares and seeing if the dog reacts is not a reliable guide to the value of alerts in the field...it just isnt proper science...as lanes attorney said,,...its junk science
grime beleives his dogs...he now believes they have scientific validation...thats dangerous..imo
What would you expect to see, as a distinguished scientist yourself, as a test that would be rigorous enough to pass muster? Maybe we can establish a standard.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 01:06:06 PM
What would you expect to see, as a distinguished scientist yourself, as a test that would be rigorous enough to pass muster? Maybe we can establish a standard.
I have some ideas.....later. Theres one where the dog involved failed miserably...Ill have to see if I can find it.. work now....Im self employed too...
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 01:20:44 PM
So what peer review papers do we have fir the alerts... Stockham said he was setting up a scientific programme... Did he ever do it
Rex was a founding member of the Scientific Working Group on Dog and Orthogonal detector Guidelines (SWGDOG), served on the Executive Board and co-chaired the Scent Dogs Subcommittee. More recently, Rex was a member of the Dogs and Sensors subcommittee of Organization of Scientific Area Committees for Forensic Science (OSAC). https://swgdog.fiu.edu/membership/in-memory-of-rex-stockham/
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 01:26:58 PM
Rex was a founding member of the Scientific Working Group on Dog and Orthogonal detector Guidelines (SWGDOG), served on the Executive Board and co-chaired the Scent Dogs Subcommittee. More recently, Rex was a member of the Dogs and Sensors subcommittee of Organization of Scientific Area Committees for Forensic Science (OSAC). https://swgdog.fiu.edu/membership/in-memory-of-rex-stockham/
I'm a member of several scientific groups... What research has been done to validate the alerts... I think it's none The type of evidence you have presented may well have impressed the judge
Do you have an answer to the two points I raised
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 01:33:56 PM
I dont have a cite... I dont think Grime was passing by by chance so he must have been approached...its the prosecutions case so who approached him
This is a clear example of why cites are necessary and why requesting them isn't nit picking. Stating guesses and opinions as if they are facts is misleading.
You don't know why Grime worked on the Lane case, but chose to pretend you did. If you really want to know I suggest you conduct some research and find the answer.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 03, 2019, 01:35:19 PM
I have some ideas.....later. Theres one where the dog involved failed miserably...Ill have to see if I can find it.. work now....Im self employed too...
Maybe ask Randi to formulate a test.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 01:40:37 PM
This is a clear example of why cites are necessary and why requesting them isn't nit picking. Stating guesses and opinions as if they are facts is misleading.
You don't know why Grime worked on the Lane case, but chose to pretend you did. If you really want to know I suggest you conduct some research and find the answer.
I think it's a realistic assumption to make...who else would have approached him... Having said that I support your request fir a cite
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 03, 2019, 01:45:11 PM
I'm new to this case but have a layperson's understanding of LCN DNA through looking at another case. You seem pretty knowledgeable, so a couple of questions if I may:
1. The biological samples collected in this case were as a result of the dog alerts?
2. As I understand it LCN is used to amplify small samples of DNA where the source material is unknown ie skin cells, sweat, blood etc?
3. In this case has the biological source been identified or is the assumption blood based on the dog alert?
4. Given we are all shedding bits and pieces all the time ie skin cells, hair etc if the case involves a stranger abduction from 5A would he/she have left behind some DNA evidence?
5. If the answer to 3 above is yes this would clearly present problems as he/she would not be the only person depositing DNA in 5A. Potentially all those who have ever entered 5A would leave a trail of DNA although with time this would degrade to such an extent it would be beyond testing? Anyhow for it to be useful to investigators it would require a match ie a sample from a suspect or a database?
6. Why do some soc's not yield any DNA eg Dr Lyn and Megan Russell while other similar soc's do eg The Ripper (scarf of a victim)?
Any links to 'DNA for Dummies' or similar would be appreciated. Thanks
1. No. Not all of them. If you read through the PJ Filex there were a number of other samples tested aside from the human cellular material collected from areas where the blood and cadaver dogs alerted. 2. Mostly (but not exclusively) the FSS describe the samples as human cellular material. They report that they could not confirm the type of cells though. 3. There are many samples . Some are identified but many are not.. We know that Keela is trained to alert only to human blood. The alert is not evidence. The alert proves nothing but it led the forensic team to areas where samples of blood may be found. It is entirely possible that the forensic team missed the blood that Keela alerted to and instead by chance collected other human cellular material. 4. Yes of course though unless they were bleeding or dead this DNA wouldn’t have led to a dog alert. 5. I suspect you are referring to question 4 (not 3). And yes the forensic team would have to get lucky. The DNA would have to match someone already on a database. 6. I have no idea.
Sorry I don’t have any links but there must be loads out there. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 01:51:58 PM
I'm a member of several scientific groups... What research has been done to validate the alerts... I think it's none The type of evidence you have presented may well have impressed the judge
Do you have an answer to the two points I raised
What's the relevance of your membership of'scientific groups'?
Morse's training, assessment and operational records validate his findings, just like Eddie's did.
What rwo points?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 01:59:37 PM
Was Morse the real deal and Eddie the experimental prototype?
I personally cannot wait until Eddie's records are released. The Parker and Harron cases show his superb abilities so I bet you're dying to see his FBI body farm records 8)-))) Eddie not Morse found Bob Rose body on the sand dunes. Eddie became the enhanced dog because he trained and continued to train in association with the FBI on pure human cadaver scent.
"FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow he and his springer spaniels Eddie, Keela and Morse were called in by police in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on the island of Sanday last June.
Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies and was used in the McCann case and the Soham murders inquiry, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24.
Mr Grime said: "His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig."
The body of "Black Bob" Rose was later found at the spot." https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sniffer-dog-used-in-search-for-madeleine-1050817
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 02:12:36 PM
Belonging to a, scientific group does not signify carrying out research..
So what research did stockham carry out... Where was it published.... Did he, start his scientific programme
You may feel eddies alerts are validated but the points you raise do not show scientific validation
I expect the FBI had the necessary experts in reseach if Stockham needed help.
Aren't blind tests used in medical research? Like some people getting placebo's and ithers getting the medicine? If those getting the medicine benefit isn't it then seen as OK to prescribe? In other words it's doing what it's supposed to do, just as the dogs are when they alert correctly.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 02:19:17 PM
I expect the FBI had the necessary experts in reseach if Stockham needed help.
Aren't blind tests used in medical research? Like some people getting placebo's and ithers getting the medicine? If those getting the medicine benefit isn't it then seen as OK to prescribe? In other words it's doing what it's supposed to do, just as the dogs are when they alert correctly.
It isn't quite as, simple, as that... I'll post my views later. The first point is that any studies are open to scrutiny
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 02:27:15 PM
I expect the FBI had the necessary experts in reseach if Stockham needed help.
Aren't blind tests used in medical research? Like some people getting placebo's and ithers getting the medicine? If those getting the medicine benefit isn't it then seen as OK to prescribe? In other words it's doing what it's supposed to do, just as the dogs are when they alert correctly.
Wasn't Stockham a close friend and colleague of Grime's?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 02:39:14 PM
Do we know of any other cases in the US where cadaver dog evidence had been admitted
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 02:42:18 PM
I expect the FBI had the necessary experts in reseach if Stockham needed help.
Aren't blind tests used in medical research? Like some people getting placebo's and ithers getting the medicine? If those getting the medicine benefit isn't it then seen as OK to prescribe? In other words it's doing what it's supposed to do, just as the dogs are when they alert correctly.
What do you think would happen if a doctor wanted to prescribe a drug... He said he had tested it... It worked and was safe... But didn't supply full details if the tests... Do you think that would be acceptable
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 03, 2019, 03:07:43 PM
I have some ideas.....later. Theres one where the dog involved failed miserably...Ill have to see if I can find it.. work now....Im self employed too...
Wasn't that the handlers making the mistakes?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 03:12:20 PM
We don't know... The dogs alerted... So who made the mistake
I like the positiveness of Grime's alerting method (repeated barks), some of the alerts in that video on blind and double blind testing were weak IMO.
Bad training methods would play a part, I'm sure of that. Excessive use of cueing IMO would also be wrong.
The other method of rewarding your dog when they made a find, unless there was immediate confirmation from the tester/assessor that the dog had got it 100% right, rewarding could be reinforcing bad behaviour on the dog's part.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 05:24:24 PM
What do you think would happen if a doctor wanted to prescribe a drug... He said he had tested it... It worked and was safe... But didn't supply full details if the tests... Do you think that would be acceptable
I expect Stockham provided any details he was asked to provide.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 05:34:34 PM
No.. Not like any other witness... Expert witnesses expect to be paid... He would also expect to be paid for his use of the dogs
AFAIAA Grime is running a business... As he was in Jersey
You appear to operate using assumptions rather than evidence. You've assumed that Grime was called as an expert witness. You've assumed that he was paid to appear. You've assumed that he was chosen by the prosecutors. Please provide evidence to support all your assunptions before hurling accusations based on them at everyone involved.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 06:26:33 PM
You appear to operate using assumptions rather than evidence. You've assumed that Grime was called as an expert witness. You've assumed that he was paid to appear. You've assumed that he was chosen by the prosecutors. Please provide evidence to support all your assunptions before hurling accusations based on them at everyone involved.
Evidence for the obvious
much do expert witnesses get paid? The average hourly fee for in court testimony for all non-medical experts is $248. The average hourly fee for in court testimony for all medical experts is $555. Medical expert witnesses on average earn more than double (124% more) what non-medical expert witnesses earn.11 Sep 2017
Perhaps I'm wrong and Grime flew himself and his dog... Stayed in a nice hotel... All at his own expense and unlike other expert witnesses didn't ask fir a fee
What do you think
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 06:46:04 PM
much do expert witnesses get paid? The average hourly fee for in court testimony for all non-medical experts is $248. The average hourly fee for in court testimony for all medical experts is $555. Medical expert witnesses on average earn more than double (124% more) what non-medical expert witnesses earn.11 Sep 2017
Perhaps I'm wrong and Grime flew himself and his dog... Stayed in a nice hotel... All at his own expense and unlike other expert witnesses didn't ask fir a fee
What do you think
I think you''re continuing to assume. I don't just think you're wrong, I know. I also think you should do your own research into the facts. Try answering these questions;
What kind of offense did D'Andre Lane report had been committed against him and his daughter? What bearing did this have on the investigation? Why did all this lead to Grime and Morse becoming involvd?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 07:07:36 PM
I think you''re continuing to assume. I don't just think you're wrong, I know. I also think you should do your own research into the facts. Try answering these questions;
What kind of offense did D'Andre Lane report had been committed against him and his daughter? What bearing did this have on the investigation? Why did all this lead to Grime and Morse becoming involvd?
If you know then explain rather than play games
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 07:19:31 PM
There's a reason why I know things. It's called research. Are you unable to do that for some reason or do you just prefer to make unfounded accusations based on unsupported assumptions? I see that as playing games.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 07:20:04 PM
There's a reason why I know things. It's called research. Are you unable to do that for some reason or do you just prefer to make unfounded accusations based on unsupported assumptions? I see that as playing games.
Cite for you know he wasn't paid
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 07:37:04 PM
much do expert witnesses get paid? The average hourly fee for in court testimony for all non-medical experts is $248. The average hourly fee for in court testimony for all medical experts is $555. Medical expert witnesses on average earn more than double (124% more) what non-medical expert witnesses earn.11 Sep 2017
Perhaps I'm wrong and Grime flew himself and his dog... Stayed in a nice hotel... All at his own expense and unlike other expert witnesses didn't ask fir a fee
What do you think
This was my post...you said you knew I was wrong...so ...cite for Im wrong
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 07:49:36 PM
I dont really see gunits problem...Grime acted for the prosecution...gave expert witness testimony...why would he NOT be paid for his services
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 08:34:06 PM
So by your own admission you have assumed Grime was caled as an expert witness? Unless you have evidence your claim is just opinion. IMO required.
Its not an assumption...Grime gave evidence as a canine expert...how is he not regarded as an expert witness...you claimed I was wrong...now provide a cite.. I think youve dug yourself a big hole...a very big hole
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 08:59:33 PM
So by your own admission you have assumed Grime was caled as an expert witness? Unless you have evidence your claim is just opinion. IMO required.
your problem is youve made a rash claim that I was wrong that you cannot substantiate..its quite obvious youve made a false claim and cant provide a cite
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 03, 2019, 09:16:11 PM
That makes no sense with Keela. Grime doesn't know where the forensic team may find the human cellular material that Keela has alerted to. He doesn't know where he should cue the dog - and he has nothing to gain from a series of false positives due to his blind cuing!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 09:18:28 PM
That makes no sense with Keela. Grime doesn't know where the forensic team may find the human cellular material that Keela has alerted to. He doesn't know where he should cue the dog - and he has nothing to gain from a series of false positives due to his blind cuing!
I was thinking more the EVRD dog....has keela ever alerted and no dna found...its possible
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 03, 2019, 09:20:44 PM
That makes no sense with Keela. Grime doesn't know where the forensic team may find the human cellular material that Keela has alerted to. He doesn't know where he should cue the dog - and he has nothing to gain from a series of false positives due to his blind cuing!
Martin Grime has been through the wringer today. Apparently he's a money-grabbing, dog ability embellishing, whinging, charlatan scheister. And his dogs are ****
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 09:22:58 PM
Martin Grime has been through the wringer today. Apparently he's a money-grabbing, dog ability embellishing, whinging, charlatan scheister. And his dogs are ****
Im glad you posted that ...not me...thanks for the support
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 09:26:27 PM
Its not an assumption...Grime gave evidence as a canine expert...how is he not regarded as an expert witness...you claimed I was wrong...now provide a cite.. I think youve dug yourself a big hole...a very big hole
Do you not think it's unreasonable to demand cites from someone else when you can't provide any to support what you admit are just your assumptions?
I'll tell you what happened, but I won't provide my sources. Why should I when you can state yout opinions as facts?
When D'Andre Lane claimed his daughter had been abducted the FBI got involved in the case because kidnapping is a federal offense. Martin Grime was working under contract for the FBI at the time as part of Stockham's Forensic Canine Programme. That's how he came to be used with his dog Morse. Morse's alerts became part of the body of circumstantial evidence against Lane. That's why Grime was called to give evidence; as Morse's handler, as the Daily Mail reported [strangely they didn't namr the handler];
The handler of a cadaver-sniffing dog named Morse testified at Lane's trial that the dog detected the smell of decomposition in his car and in Bianca's bedroom. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2242514/Detroit-dad-gets-life-prison-DAndre-Lane-beat-daughter-Bianca-Jones-2-death-wetting-herself.html
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 03, 2019, 09:28:32 PM
Martin Grime has been through the wringer today. Apparently he's a money-grabbing, dog ability embellishing, whinging, charlatan scheister. And his dogs are ****
One of my favorite scenes from a movie is Pythons holy grail- reminds me of the dogs debate...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 09:31:35 PM
your problem is youve made a rash claim that I was wrong that you cannot substantiate..its quite obvious youve made a false claim and cant provide a cite
You have claimed Grime gave evidence as a paid expert witness and have no cite to support yout claim. I think people who live in glass houses should refrain from throwing stones.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 09:35:24 PM
Do you not think it's unreasonable to demand cites from someone else when you can't provide any to support what you admit are just your assumptions?
I'll tell you what happened, but I won't provide my sources. Why should I when you can state yout opinions as facts?
When D'Andre Lane claimed his daughter had been abducted the FBI got involved in the case because kidnapping is a federal offense. Martin Grime was working under contract for the FBI at the time as part of Stockham's Forensic Canine Programme. That's how he came to be used with his dog Morse. Morse's alerts became part of the body of circumstantial evidence against Lane. That's why Grime was called to give evidence; as Morse's handler, as the Daily Mail reported [strangely they didn't namr the handler];
The handler of a cadaver-sniffing dog named Morse testified at Lane's trial that the dog detected the smell of decomposition in his car and in Bianca's bedroom. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2242514/Detroit-dad-gets-life-prison-DAndre-Lane-beat-daughter-Bianca-Jones-2-death-wetting-herself.html
Grime was under contract to provide services to the FBI... According to Grime.. One if these services was as an expert witness.. If Grime was under contract he was paid.. You have claimed Grime was just a witness... He obviously wasn't if he was under contract to supply expert witness services..
So Grime was paid and he was an expert witness... So your claim I was wrong is false. My information is from his LinkedIn page
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 09:36:35 PM
You have claimed Grime gave evidence as a paid expert witness and have no cite to support yout claim. I think people who live in glass houses should refrain from throwing stones.
My claim was correct.. Your claim that I wasn't correct is false
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 03, 2019, 09:46:56 PM
Grime was under contract to provide services to the FBI... According to Grime.. One if these services was as an expert witness.. If Grime was under contract he was paid.. You have claimed Grime was just a witness... He obviously wasn't if he was under contract to supply expert witness services..
So Grime was paid and he was an expert witness... So your claim I was wrong is false. My information is from his LinkedIn page
Cuing and false positives would do his business and reputation no good.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 03, 2019, 09:48:53 PM
I was thinking more the EVRD dog....has keela ever alerted and no dna found...its possible
Well we know DNA was found in this case!
Here's some words from Martin Grime on Keela, her ability and training:
"Vol IX p. 2483
CSI HUMAN BLOOD DETECTING DOG
'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate exclusively human blood. She will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing and examine crime scenes for human blood deposits. She will accurately locate human blood on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several washing machine cycles. In training she has accurately located samples of blood on property up to thirty-six years old.
In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities. Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable level for accurate location.
She is trained specifically using human blood obtained through the haematology department at Sheffield Northern General Hospital. The blood undergoes strict screening for disease and contamination prior to use. The samples are from a wide range of ethnic backgrounds and are from both male and female sources.
Keela's training and licensing is based around the level of 1 positive screening sample introduced into 200 control articles or 1 positive sample introduced during 6 hours searching in relation to crime scenes or vehicles."
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 09:52:00 PM
Here's some words from Martin Grime on Keela, her ability and training:
"Vol IX p. 2483
CSI HUMAN BLOOD DETECTING DOG
'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate exclusively human blood. She will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing and examine crime scenes for human blood deposits. She will accurately locate human blood on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several washing machine cycles. In training she has accurately located samples of blood on property up to thirty-six years old.
In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities. Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable level for accurate location.
She is trained specifically using human blood obtained through the haematology department at Sheffield Northern General Hospital. The blood undergoes strict screening for disease and contamination prior to use. The samples are from a wide range of ethnic backgrounds and are from both male and female sources.
Keela's training and licensing is based around the level of 1 positive screening sample introduced into 200 control articles or 1 positive sample introduced during 6 hours searching in relation to crime scenes or vehicles."
DNA found but not confirmed as blood
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 09:54:05 PM
Here's some examples of Eddie's operational casework:
Northern Ireland, UK A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland. The search of suspects 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger foot well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victims' DNA. The enquiry then concentrated its efforts on the suspect and the E.V.R.D. located the body of the woman in a river bank deposition site. Further searches identified a location where the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offenders empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.
Wiltshire, UK A female was abducted by her ex-boyfriend. Intelligence suggested that her ex-boy friend had taken her to his house. A search by the EVRD of the house resulted in small blood stains being alert indicated and forensically confirmed as her blood. The suspect, a builder, was in possession of a van. This was searched and the EVRD dog alerted to a 'wacker plate', spirtit level, and shovel. A site was identified where the suspect had been working. The EVRD then located the body deposition site in an area of a garbage base that had been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its original state.
Devon, UK A female was abducted and her whereabouts were unknown. The suspect was a bus driver. An initial search by the E.V.R.D. alerted at a location near to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. A forensic search at the alert location revealed a small button off of the girls clothing in long grass. The offender confessed to the murder and confirmed her body had been initially temporarily placed at the dog's alert location.
Cornwall, UK A woman was reported missing by her partner. A search of the suspects house by the EVRD was conducted who indicated on the living room carpet. No forensic evidence was recovered. Subsequently a diary written by the suspect was alert indicated by the dog. The diary had written extracts that the offender had laid the victim on the carpet whilst dead, the diary had in fact been written by the suspect having handled the body. This was confirmed by the offender in interview.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2019, 09:54:40 PM
Grime was under contract to provide services to the FBI... According to Grime.. One if these services was as an expert witness.. If Grime was under contract he was paid.. You have claimed Grime was just a witness... He obviously wasn't if he was under contract to supply expert witness services..
So Grime was paid and he was an expert witness... So your claim I was wrong is false. My information is from his LinkedIn page
Of course Grime was paid because he was working under contract for the FBI. You claimed he was paid as an expert witness by the courts, did you not? Specially chosen by the prosecutors, no less?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 09:57:54 PM
Here's some examples of Eddie's operational casework:
Northern Ireland, UK A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland. The search of suspects 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger foot well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victims' DNA. The enquiry then concentrated its efforts on the suspect and the E.V.R.D. located the body of the woman in a river bank deposition site. Further searches identified a location where the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offenders empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.
Wiltshire, UK A female was abducted by her ex-boyfriend. Intelligence suggested that her ex-boy friend had taken her to his house. A search by the EVRD of the house resulted in small blood stains being alert indicated and forensically confirmed as her blood. The suspect, a builder, was in possession of a van. This was searched and the EVRD dog alerted to a 'wacker plate', spirtit level, and shovel. A site was identified where the suspect had been working. The EVRD then located the body deposition site in an area of a garbage base that had been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its original state.
Devon, UK A female was abducted and her whereabouts were unknown. The suspect was a bus driver. An initial search by the E.V.R.D. alerted at a location near to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. A forensic search at the alert location revealed a small button off of the girls clothing in long grass. The offender confessed to the murder and confirmed her body had been initially temporarily placed at the dog's alert location.
Cornwall, UK A woman was reported missing by her partner. A search of the suspects house by the EVRD was conducted who indicated on the living room carpet. No forensic evidence was recovered. Subsequently a diary written by the suspect was alert indicated by the dog. The diary had written extracts that the offender had laid the victim on the carpet whilst dead, the diary had in fact been written by the suspect having handled the body. This was confirmed by the offender in interview.
Thats anectdotal not scientific evidence... And IMO not very impressive for 5 years, work
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 03, 2019, 10:00:32 PM
I disagree... A false positive is virtually impossible to prove
But if Keela barks randomly and the forensic team rarely find blood for DNA analysis after these random barks then Grime (and dogs) would not be so highly regarded by the FBI.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 10:01:49 PM
But if Keela barks randomly and the forensic team rarely find blood for DNA analysis after these random barks ana then Grime (and dogs) would not be so highly regarded by the FBI.
I'm not talking about Keela... It's the cadaver dog that's important....
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 03, 2019, 10:06:13 PM
Thats anectdotal not scientific evidence... And IMO not very impressive for 5 years, work
Anecdotal? Do you dispute all these cases? Do you dispute Eddie alerted in those cases? Do you dispute forensic material or evidence of the presense of a corpse was found where Eddie alerted in those cases? Do you dispute the confessions? Do you dispute the entire case in those examples?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 03, 2019, 10:08:09 PM
Anecdotal? Do you dispute all these cases? Do you dispute Eddie alerted in those cases? Do you dispute forensic material or evidence of the presense of a corpse was found where Eddie alerted in those cases? Do you dispute the confessions? Do you dispute the entire case in those examples?
The evidence us anectdotal... It's not scientific... Eddie found one cadaver...from those examples We would need to see all the cases he was involved in to make a judgement...
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 10:11:46 PM
The evidence us anectdotal... It's not scientific... Eddie found one cadaver...from those examples We would need to see all the cases he was involved in to make a judgement...
In all those examples Eddie alerted to cadaver odour. Why do you concede the efficacy of dogs trained to alert to blood, drugs, or firearms but not cadaver odour?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 03, 2019, 10:18:47 PM
Keelad alerts, are confirmed by the finding of blood.. Has a court ever been asked to accept blood was present purely in an alert.. I dint think so
Of course not - I never once suggested that. I said the alerts are not evidence. They are simply indicators which point a team of forensic scientists to areas where they may find blood or human celular material. It is the findings of the forensic team that are presented to court - not a dog barking!! Good grief!!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 10:22:02 PM
In all those examples Eddie alerted to cadaver odour. Why do you concede the efficacy of dogs trained to alert to blood, drugs, or firearms but not cadaver odour?
Do we know for certain that the dogs, alerted to cadaver odour... No
As far as, I know other dog handlers, are not trying to claim their dogs alert as true if no evidence is found Drug dogs alert to drugs, and only drugs.. Eddie akerts to cadaver... Blood.. What else
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 10:23:17 PM
Of course not - I never once suggested that. I said the alerts are not evidence. They are simply indicators which point a team of forensic scientists to areas where they may find blood or human celular material. It is the findings of the forensic team that are presented to court - not a dog barking!! Good grief!!
The dogs bark was presented in the Lane case
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 03, 2019, 10:25:01 PM
Do we know for certain that the dogs, alerted to cadaver odour... No
As far as, I know other dog handlers, are not trying to claim their dogs alert as true if no evidence is found Drug dogs alert to drugs, and only drugs.. Eddie akerts to cadaver... Blood.. What else
pig corpses
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Parky41 on July 03, 2019, 10:27:57 PM
Of course not - I never once suggested that. I said the alerts are not evidence. They are simply indicators which point a team of forensic scientists to areas where they may find blood or human celular material. It is the findings of the forensic team that are presented to court - not a dog barking!! Good grief!!
T'would be a leap in bettering some of our justice system, the day we get Barbara Woodhouse in to decipher/translating for the 'dog in the dock'
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 03, 2019, 10:28:16 PM
I would accept it as circumstantial evidence but not as scientific evidence.
I do find it remarkable that despite all the chaff from those who try to discredit cadaver dogs the fact remains that Eddie only alerted to items directly related to the McCanns. The coin flipping analogy doesn't quite fit with that!!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 03, 2019, 10:29:21 PM
So by your own admission you have assumed Grime was called as an expert witness? Unless you have evidence your claim is just opinion. IMO required.
Grime giving evidence would be equivalent to a FSS scientist giving evidence or is he just another of the police team giving evidence? That is a hard question.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Parky41 on July 03, 2019, 10:29:35 PM
I would accept it as circumstantial evidence but not as scientific evidence.
I do find it remarkable that despite all the chaff from those who try to discredit cadaver dogs the fact remains that Eddie only alerted to items directly related to the McCanns. The coin flipping analogy doesn't quite fit with that!!
I can't provide thr cite again but as far as I'm aware eddie was given far longer in 5a... And originally did not alert to places he later alerted to... As regard the car... Eddie pased by the car, without alerting but was called back.. He wasn't called back to any other car
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 10:35:16 PM
Grime giving evidence would be equivalent to a FSS scientist giving evidence or is he just another of the police team giving evidence? That is a hard question.
In the summary of the, appeal it says, Grime was, introduced as an expert by Stockham...
It says Grime testified as an expert in canine training and employment..
Grime testified as an expert.... That's crystal clear
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 03, 2019, 10:39:01 PM
I'm not talking about Keela... It's the cadaver dog that's important....
But before you said DNA was found but it wasn't proved to be blood. That was a reference to Keela for it was keela that pointed to the region of the "blood".
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 03, 2019, 10:42:03 PM
I can't provide thr cite again but as far as I'm aware eddie was given far longer in 5a... And originally did not alert to places he later alerted to... As regard the car... Eddie pased by the car, without alerting but was called back.. He wasn't called back to any other car
Come off it - you can see Eddie's behaviour change as he passes the car. This is explained by Grime in statements made to the PJ.. Just as his behaviour changes as he was approaching 5A. Now I have no training in this matter but as a lay observer I believe that the dog has detected what he is trained to alert to (cadaver odour, human blood, pig corpses). You will have to cite your claim about the length of time for the searches. The entire video has been posted here and is in the PJ Files for anyone who wants to watch it.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 10:43:29 PM
But before you said DNA was found but it wasn't proved to be blood. That was a reference to Keela for it was keela that pointed to the region of the "blood".
It's not clear what you mean... Keela alerted... DNA was recovered.. But not confirmed as blood.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 10:46:20 PM
Come off it - you can see Eddie's behaviour change as he passes the car. This is explained by Grime in statements made to the PJ.. Just as his behaviour changes as he was approaching 5A. Now I have no training in this matter but as a lay observer I believe that the dog has detected what he is trained to alert to (cadaver odour, human blood, pig corpses). You will have to cite your claim about the length of time for the searches. The entire video has been posted here and is in the PJ Files for anyone who wants to watch it.
The video is, edited... Are you aware the PJ raised concerns that the digs alerted to places they had previously ignored.. I posted the cite from the files many times
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 03, 2019, 10:46:53 PM
By the way the FSS ruled out pig corpses in some of the samples. They stated it was "human" cellular material.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 03, 2019, 10:47:21 PM
It's not clear what you mean... Keela alerted... DNA was recovered.. But not confirmed as blood.
You said "I'm not talking about Keela... It's the cadaver dog that's important...." But I'm pointing out you have been referring to Keela as well as Eddie.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 10:49:02 PM
You said "I'm not talking about Keela... It's the cadaver dog that's important...." But I'm pointing out you have been referring to Keela as well as Eddie.
Only when keela was introduced by someone else
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 03, 2019, 10:50:59 PM
The video is, edited... Are you aware the PJ raised concerns that the digs alerted to places they had previously ignored.. I posted the cite from the files many times
Are the PJ experts in handling cadaver and CSI dogs? I'd answer that with a "NO". So their concerns may not be real concerns at all.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 10:51:44 PM
The video is, edited... Are you aware the PJ raised concerns that the digs alerted to places they had previously ignored.. I posted the cite from the files many times
The important point is that the dogs alerts signposted the forensic team to areas where they may find samples of blood or human cellular material. They did so remarkably well.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 11:00:09 PM
The important point is that the dogs alerts signposted the forensic team to areas where they may find samples of blood or human cellular material. They did so remarkably well.
Where they may find... I would think theres DNA just about everywhere ..
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 03, 2019, 11:02:00 PM
It wouldnt be proved that the sample recovered was what was alerted to
Well you could run a test to see if they alerted to the sample if it was hidden - but your average juror would accept the sample for what it was... they wouldn't need proof that it was definitely what the dog alerted to.
Tell me why do you think the FBI use these dogs if they are of no value?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2019, 11:02:58 PM
Well you could run a test to see if they alerted to the sample if it was hidden - but your average juror would accept the sample for what it was... they wouldn't need proof that it was definitely what the dog alerted to.
Tell me why do you think the FBI use these dogs if they are of no value?
When did I say they were if no value... Never...
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 03, 2019, 11:03:32 PM
Where they may find... I would think theres DNA just about everywhere ..
Yes you might be right technically ... but not of a particular species and in identifiable quantities ... but will you accept that .... hardly from experience .... but we are all getting older and none the wiser ... but what's good for the goose is also good for the gander.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 03, 2019, 11:17:28 PM
Cadaver odour takes around one and a half to two hours to develop. The McCanns left the apartment at 8.30-8.45. Madeleine disappeared before 10pm. The maths really isn't difficult.
If the dogs are correct Madeleine must have been dead before her parents left the apartment and it is for that fact alone that the dogs credibility has to be undermined.
Interesting.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 03, 2019, 11:27:55 PM
Cadaver odour takes around one and a half to two hours to develop. The McCanns left the apartment at 8.30-8.45. Madeleine disappeared before 10pm. The maths really isn't difficult.
If the dogs are correct Madeleine must have been dead before her parents left the apartment and it is for that fact alone that the dogs credibility has to be undermined.
Yet the PJ accept Gerry McCann's statement Madeleine was alive at the time of Gerry's visit. To me rather than trying to prove an earlier death time, why not look at moving the body at a later time.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 03, 2019, 11:47:40 PM
The PJ won't accept anything said by GM as he's not been cleared. The body would be moved away from the crime scene before the alarm was raised in that theory but you suggest it could be moved later. If so, where is the body hidden before the later move?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 04, 2019, 01:38:39 AM
The PJ won't accept anything said by GM as he's not been cleared. The body would be moved away from the crime scene before the alarm was raised in that theory but you suggest it could be moved later. If so, where is the body hidden before the later move?
It comes back to that bag in the wardrobe. It is in the photo taken at night but doesn't appear to be there in the next day photo. Who moved that bag and when?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 04, 2019, 07:07:39 AM
Then you will have watched Eddie retrieve a food item from a kitchen waste bin in one of the apartments ... whether or not that was a bacon sandwich ... it was an action outwith the parameters of his training.
It’s probably important to know that he doesn’t alert to the food in the bin in the same way he does to the cupboard in the apartment bedroom.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 04, 2019, 07:16:16 AM
It comes back to that bag in the wardrobe. It is in the photo taken at night but doesn't appear to be there in the next day photo. Who moved that bag and when?
The bag in the first photo is pictured almost exactly where Eddie alerts.
Also with regards to the time cadaver odour first starts to develop the times quoted on the previous page are averages. The decay process of vertebrates begins rapidly after death (i.e. "four minutes after death") [Vass, A.A. Understanding Human Decomposition] and leads to the release of postmortem compounds in the ecosystem . These cadaveric compounds, mainly volatile organic compounds (VOCs), are by- or end-products of the decay process. Using dogs it has been shown to be detectable as soon as 30 85 minutes after the time of death (Cadaver Scent Project)
For a possible time of death, IMO, we need to look at the period between the last independent sighting and 30-60 at least 85 minutes before the latest reported time that the alarm was raised (22:15). Another possibility would be to conclude that Eddie alerted to blood behind the sofa and not cadaver odour. In addition a body may have been concealed in the cupboard in 5A and removed some hours later. This last scenario (which seems unlikely due to the risk of detection) would rule out GM being the man Martin Smith saw carrying a child.
Another scenario that would explain Eddie's alerts only at locations directly associated with the McCann's would be that someone using the McCann's apartment or hire car or items of clothing has been in close proximity with a corpse and had introduced cross contamination. Is there any truth in the stories that KM tried to explain away the alerts by saying she had attended a number of post mortems and she had taken her daughter's favorite comfort toy with her!?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 04, 2019, 07:23:08 AM
The bag in the first photo is pictured almost exactly where Eddie alerts.
Also with regards to the time cadaver odour first starts to develop the times quoted on the previous page are averages. It has been reported to be detectable as soon as 30 minutes after the time of death.
For a possible time, IMO, we need to look at the period between the last independent sighting and 30-60 minutes before the latest reported time that the alarm was raised (22:15)
Do you have a cite for this?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 04, 2019, 07:49:33 AM
Yes. It’s in the interview between Grime and the PJ. I can find it after work.
did Grime ever give an interview with the PJ...do you mean the statements...strange Ive never seen this...I doubt you can provide a reliable cite
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 04, 2019, 08:08:19 AM
I know next to nothing about these dogs. In fact in an earlier post I ignorantly wrote them off as junk science akin to lie detector tests but it seems I'm wrong in this regard!
So one dogs sniffs out blood the other odour from a corpse?
But untrained dogs ie domestic pets sniff out menstrual fluid which contains blood? Are the dogs capable of distinguishing source/type of blood?
It comes back to that bag in the wardrobe. It is in the photo taken at night but doesn't appear to be there in the next day photo. Who moved that bag and when?
Was the photo taken at night? Is there proof it wasn't there the next day?
Somehow I can't see the McCann's carting a bag around with Madeleine's body in it on the night of Madeleine's disappearance with the Police present.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 08:12:58 AM
I know next to nothing about these dogs. In fact in an earlier post I ignorantly wrote them off as junk science akin to lie detector tests but it seems I'm wrong in this regard!
So one dogs sniffs out blood the other odour from a corpse?
But untrained dogs ie domestic pets sniff out menstrual fluid which contains blood? Are the dogs capable of distinguishing source/type of blood?
both dogs react to human blood from a live person. Not only that they will react to the tiniest spot of blood...even if it is not detectable by forensic scientists according to grime. imo...something that claims to be scientifically based but has no rael scientific basis is Junk Science
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 04, 2019, 08:14:23 AM
Come off it - you can see Eddie's behaviour change as he passes the car. This is explained by Grime in statements made to the PJ.. Just as his behaviour changes as he was approaching 5A. Now I have no training in this matter but as a lay observer I believe that the dog has detected what he is trained to alert to (cadaver odour, human blood, pig corpses). You will have to cite your claim about the length of time for the searches. The entire video has been posted here and is in the PJ Files for anyone who wants to watch it.
PASSES the car, you are correct there he did pass by the car and had to be called back. 5a had been shut up for a while there would have been a smell in there it was a warm day. There is no evidence that suggests Eddie alerted to cadaver scent. Nothing was found to indicate Madeleline had died in 5a. Martin Grime even said on the Netflix documentary that Eddie could have alerted to ancient smells.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 04, 2019, 08:54:54 AM
Interesting to note that in this report (reposted here to try and discredit the work of victim recovery and crime scene dogs) what we actually have is a correct alert to cadaver odour. In the Shannon Matthews case the alert was verified. It was discovered the "scent of death" was due to the corpse of the previous owner on furniture that was sold on the second hand market. In other words the dogs were doing exactly what they are trained to do - and doing it with verifiable accuracy.
It's also factually incorrect to state "nothing more was found" in the Madeleine McCann case. Human cellular material was found in both the hire car and in apartment 5A. This material was then sent to the FSS laboratory in the UK for forensic investigation. Low copy DNA results were "inconclusive" in terms of proving these human samples belonged to Madeleine McCann.
But if the "scent of death" is so acute it can be picked up off furniture previously owned by another how can we be sure something similar didn't happen with the McCanns? Bearing in mind also the McCanns are medi doctors and work with the sick and dying.
But if the "scent of death" is so acute it can be picked up off furniture previously owned by another how can we be sure something similar didn't happen with the McCanns? Bearing in mind also the McCanns are medi doctors and work with the sick and dying.
Do me a favour plse and just outline briefly your point. Thanks.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 09:20:42 AM
because of the sensitivity of the dogs and the poor testing methods its not possible to say with any certainty that an alert is related to the case in question or evn is to cadaver scent. This hasnt been a real problem because the alerts were not seen as evidence having no evidential value. They were a guide as to where investigators should look for evidence,. This was the accepted view in 2007 but it seems grime has now moved the goal posts and wants the alerts to be seen as more than intelligence.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 09:23:28 AM
Do me a favour plse and just outline briefly your point. Thanks.
It might help if you had not referred to the actions of those you are seeking help from as childish. You won't get any help from sceptics Re zampo but you might from supporters
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 04, 2019, 09:30:52 AM
It might help if you had not referred to the actions of those you are seeking help from as childish. You won't get any help from sceptics Re zampo but you might from supporters
I did not refer to any particular group as 'childish'. I said I thought the whole sceptic/supporter thing is childish.
I don't want or need help just looking for some civilised debate about an interesting case.
thats your opinion but just about every poster here has used the terms and its quite a useful term to use in some situations....Such as ...supporters tend to be sceptical of the dogs whilst sceptics seem to accept them as evidence,
Im not sure how i would get that message over in any other simple way and dont seee it as childish at all
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 04, 2019, 10:15:39 AM
Do me a favour plse and just outline briefly your point. Thanks.
It's very easy to find by google, and also this forum has a search function - put Zampo in ans see what comes up - briefly, Zampo was a cadaver dog that was led to an outdoor wooded location by a suspect serial killer and alerted in 45 places at this location. the suspect was subesequently found guilty, having also confessed to these many murders. The only problem was, he didn't actually have anything whatsoever to do with the killings. Hence the dog alerts were highly questionable, unless by some incredible coincidence the suspect led the police and dog to a place in the forest where a dead body had once been.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2019, 10:27:30 AM
because of the sensitivity of the dogs and the poor testing methods its not possible to say with any certainty that an alert is related to the case in question or evn is to cadaver scent. This hasnt been a real problem because the alerts were not seen as evidence having no evidential value. They were a guide as to where investigators should look for evidence,. This was the accepted view in 2007 but it seems grime has now moved the goal posts and wants the alerts to be seen as more than intelligence.
The fact is that the alerts by 'cadaver dogs' have been used successfully in the courts as circumstantial evidence since 2007. You can hardly expect Grime to ignore that fact.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 04, 2019, 10:29:38 AM
The fact is that the alerts by 'cadaver dogs' have been used successfully in the courts as circumstantial evidence since 2007. You can hardly expect Grime to ignore that fact.
Successfully for whom?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 04, 2019, 10:35:55 AM
The fact is that the alerts by 'cadaver dogs' have been used successfully in the courts as circumstantial evidence since 2007. You can hardly expect Grime to ignore that fact.
I can see they have the potential as a useful forensic tool in the box so to speak but I doubt the CPS would get a case to court on the basis of the dog alerts alone let alone a conviction?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 10:51:42 AM
The fact is that the alerts by 'cadaver dogs' have been used successfully in the courts as circumstantial evidence since 2007. You can hardly expect Grime to ignore that fact.
Never in England Ireland Wales... Once in scotland He ignored it Luz LCN was used in the UK extensively till challenged and it's limitations exposed
Some US states, also use canine line up ID which had been shown to be unreliable and the cause of several miscarriages of justice.
Afaics... Grime is on a mission to make them accepted and his views have changed dramatically since 2007
His science and tests are poor imo... And that's why they are not accepted in England
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 10:53:47 AM
I can see they have the potential as a useful forensic tool in the box so to speak but I doubt the CPS would get a case to court on the basis of the dog alerts alone let alone a conviction?
As I understand the alerts have never been allowed in an English court.
How widespread is the use if the dogs... If half the claims are true why are they digging up a whole field to find Suzy lamplugh
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 10:57:37 AM
The first change I would suggest to Grimes test is to introduce more odours 100 felt tiles One or two with cadaver Some with stale urine and other bodily fliuds Some with decayed foodstuffs
What about sone antique furniture
Other suggestions possible
Those are the sort of things the dogs would alert to in the field
Would they still score in the high nineties
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2019, 11:12:56 AM
I can see they have the potential as a useful forensic tool in the box so to speak but I doubt the CPS would get a case to court on the basis of the dog alerts alone let alone a conviction?
They have been used in Scotland as part of a collection of circumstantial evidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Suzanne_Pilley#Prosecution_case
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 04, 2019, 11:14:26 AM
thats your opinion but just about every poster here has used the terms and its quite a useful term to use in some situations....Such as ...supporters tend to be sceptical of the dogs whilst sceptics seem to accept them as evidence,
Im not sure how i would get that message over in any other simple way and dont seee it as childish at all
Well it sounds a tad childish and tribal to me but if you're all ok with these terms of ref then so be it!
As it stand at the moment I just can't see any evidence that the McCanns/T7 were directly involved in MM's disappearance but, as with all these cases, people interpret things differently and apply different weights to the various aspects.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 04, 2019, 11:16:59 AM
They have been used in Scotland as part of a collection of circumstantial evidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Suzanne_Pilley#Prosecution_case
But the operative word in your post is surely 'collection'?
What collection of circumstantial evidence exists against the McCanns?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 11:18:49 AM
Well it sounds a tad childish and tribal to me but if you're all ok with these terms of ref then so be it!
As it stand at the moment I just can't see any evidence that the McCanns/T7 were directly involved in MM's disappearance but, as with all these cases, people interpret things differently and apply different weights to the various aspects.
I can't see any way the parents are involved but if new evidence comes to light that could change. Pedro DaCarmo said around two years ago when head of the PJ that there was no evidence against the mccanns... And that they were not suspects... SY don't seem to regard them as suspects so I don't see things changing
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2019, 11:19:17 AM
They have been used in Scotland as part of a collection of circumstantial evidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Suzanne_Pilley#Prosecution_case
As I have said according to the family the appeal court criticised the admissibility of this evidence It seems you have just case and nothing else
I don't see the dogs being used much and I don't see them being useful apart from less than a couple of cases over the last 12 years. What I have seen in the official report from Jersey is criticism if them
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 11:25:25 AM
I think it's just a matter of time until the alerts are used in evidence in England and Wales. When the right case comes along they will be imo.
I can't see on what basis you make that claim... What evidence to support it... There's lots to contradict it which you seem to want to ignore
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 11:30:32 AM
In 2007 grime said the alerts had no evidential reliability.. Now he has presented them as evidence... I would like him to explain what has changed his mind
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2019, 11:43:26 AM
Never in England Ireland Wales... Once in scotland He ignored it Luz LCN was used in the UK extensively till challenged and it's limitations exposed
Some US states, also use canine line up ID which had been shown to be unreliable and the cause of several miscarriages of justice.
Afaics... Grime is on a mission to make them accepted and his views have changed dramatically since 2007
His science and tests are poor imo... And that's why they are not accepted in England
That’s a misrepresentation of his views based on what he has actually said about alerts (at the time of his involvement with the McCann investigation. He was always clear that the alerts on there own did not constitute evidence. He said the alerts can be used to signpost a forensic team towards areas where they are likely to find samples of interest. He always stated that it was then up to the scientists to interpret their findings. He stressed that several times.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 04, 2019, 12:02:29 PM
Then you will have watched Eddie retrieve a food item from a kitchen waste bin in one of the apartments ... whether or not that was a bacon sandwich ... it was an action outwith the parameters of his training.
He is still a dog who likes a bit of food.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 04, 2019, 12:05:13 PM
That’s a misrepresentation of his views based on what he has actually said about alerts (at the time of his involvement with the McCann investigation. He was always clear that the alerts on there own did not constitute evidence. He said the alerts can be used to signpost a forensic team towards areas where they are likely to find samples of interest. He always stated that it was then up to the scientists to interpret their findings. He stressed that several times.
he has cahnged his opinion dramatically...he is now saying anectdotal witness sateents can corroborated the alerts,,...in 2007 he said it had to be human remains..
wheres your cite for 30 mins by the way
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 12:19:15 PM
he has cahnged his opinion dramatically...he is now saying anectdotal witness sateents can corroborated the alerts,,...in 2007 he said it had to be human remains..
wheres your cite for 30 mins by the way
If someone confessed to placing a cadaver in a bag and hid that bag in the McCann's main bedroom wardrobe, I can see Grime thinking that corroborates Eddie's alert at the wardrobe. There doesn't have to be remains.
If you thought there had to be remains where would these remains have to be found? If Madeleine's body was found 7 km away from the apartment does that corroborate an alert in the apartment? IMO it doesn't.
So what do you mean by "in 2007 he said it had to be human remains"? Where would those remains have to be?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2019, 12:45:45 PM
As I have said according to the family the appeal court criticised the admissibility of this evidence It seems you have just case and nothing else
I don't see the dogs being used much and I don't see them being useful apart from less than a couple of cases over the last 12 years. What I have seen in the official report from Jersey is criticism if them
Of course they did. So did D'Andre Lane. Convictions are difficult to achieve when there's no body, which is why bodies are disposed of.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 04, 2019, 12:47:15 PM
its very telling taht you have never criticised the lies told about the dogs...such as eddie found a body under a concrete slab in jersey...total lies
Cite for this please " eddie found a body under a concrete slab in jersey". Why introduce random objections like that without proof? This site mentions it: https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/02/mccanns-case-how-can-dog-sniff-through.html "A child's remains were discovered under several inches of concrete at a former children's home in Jersey after police bought in dogs to search the site. But how can they sniff through concrete?
For Eddie, it's all in a day's work."
I know moisture will permeate through concrete so I don't see why cadaver odour can't do the same.
But whether Eddie did alert above the concrete, and they found child remains below - who knows?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 12:52:32 PM
If someone confessed to placing a cadaver in a bag and hid that bag in the McCann's main bedroom wardrobe, I can see Grime thinking that corroborates Eddie's alert at the wardrobe. There doesn't have to be remains.
If you thought there had to be remains where would these remains have to be found? If Madeleine's body was found 7 km away from the apartment does that corroborate an alert in the apartment? IMO it doesn't.
So what do you mean by "in 2007 he said it had to be human remains"? Where would those remains have to be?
im simply quoting grime as i have before and provided a cite..he said...
as no remains have been found the only alerts taht can be corroborated are the csi...
the questions you ask are therefore not relevant
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2019, 12:53:27 PM
It's not up to me, though, it's up to the police and the prosecutora which evidence they use in a particular case. it's then up to the judge(s) and jurors to decide if it's admissible and convincing.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 12:54:27 PM
It's not up to me, though, it's up to the police and the prosecutora which evidence they use in a particular case. it's then up to the judge(s) and jurors to decide if it's admissible and convincing.
and so far theyve never been admitted in england...have they ever been offered as evidence. It seems to me the dogs are very little used
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2019, 12:57:35 PM
It's not up to me, though, it's up to the police and the prosecutora which evidence they use in a particular case. it's then up to the judge(s) and jurors to decide if it's admissible and convincing.
Sure but in this case there's not a scintilla of evidence against the McCanns. This doesn't mean they were not involved in MM's disappearance just that there's no evidence they were.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 01:00:32 PM
im simply quoting grime as i have before and provided a cite..he said...
as no remains have been found the only alerts taht can be corroborated are the csi...
the questions you ask are therefore not relevant
But we are discussing what he said then and what he said later. So your quote is for one situation only. What you are forgetting is that Grime is only talking (short time) and he is not writing out a full explanation as he does in the white paper.
Well I still ask you from the little you quote, where do the remains have to be found? "as no remains have been found the only alerts taht can be corroborated are the csi..."
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 01:05:22 PM
But we are discussing what he said then and what he said later. So your quote is for one situation only. What you are forgetting is that Grime is only talking (short time) and he is not writing out a full explanation as he does in the white paper.
Well I still ask you from the little you quote, where do the remains have to be found? "as no remains have been found the only alerts taht can be corroborated are the csi..."
Ask grime...Im forgetting nothing...Grime says ..as no remains were found...its obvious he means the dogs ahve to detect remains at the serches
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 04, 2019, 01:07:02 PM
Sure but in this case there's not a scintilla of evidence against the McCanns. This doesn't mean they were not involved in MM's disappearance just that there's no evidence they were.
You could say that about everyone who was within 10 km of the apartment.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 04, 2019, 01:09:00 PM
More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder.
but of course amaral claime dhis book was based on the police files....are postsers still not aware of the claims amaral made in his book
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2019, 01:14:43 PM
More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder.
but of course Amaral claimed his book was based on the police files....are posters still not aware of the claims Amaral made in his book
So Amaral makes or repeats this claim, but was it true?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 01:21:08 PM
Most of what I find myself posting about Grime and the dogs is in reply to those who make unfounded assumptions about them and their work.
none of what post is unfounded,,...you claim you think they will be admitted in england,...thats certainly unfounded
I question Grimes testing and its relevance to real life scenarios...I question his claim taht his tests are scientific
I question why more time was spent in 5a based on evidence I question why eddie did not alert to palces that he subsequently allerted to ..based on the pj files
I question the reliability of the alerts based on what grime has said
I question why grime has now had a massive change of mind on what constitutes corroboration... what is the expalnation for that...
Al valid questions
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 04, 2019, 01:21:37 PM
Well I'll ask this: Do you think it is impossible for cadaver odour to permeate a couple of inches of concrete?
"A cadaver dog can actually detect human remains through concrete, buried underground, or at the bottom of a body of water, using its extremely well-honed noses to search for faint traces of the chemicals emitted by the human body during decomposition. " https://behindthecrime.wordpress.com/about/the-working-dogs/
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 04, 2019, 01:45:48 PM
More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder.
but of course amaral claime dhis book was based on the police files....are postsers still not aware of the claims amaral made in his book
You started off saying Grime claimed that Eddie had alerted to a body under concrete.
This has now morphed into Amaral's saying, with no mention of Grime.
Worse, your 'cite' does not even say Eddie alerted over concrete. It says Eddie assisted in a search. In reality, it is common knowledge that Eddie was deployed on the Jersey case.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 01:52:06 PM
You started off saying Grime claimed that Eddie had alerted to a body under concrete.
This has now morphed into Amaral's saying, with no mention of Grime.
Worse, your 'cite' does not even say Eddie alerted over concrete. It says Eddie assisted in a search. In reality, it is common knowledge that Eddie was deployed on the Jersey case.
Cite for I said grime made the claim... That's the third most ridiculous thing I've heard.. I said amaral makes the claim in his book
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2019, 01:52:44 PM
Sure but in this case there's not a scintilla of evidence against the McCanns. This doesn't mean they were not involved in MM's disappearance just that there's no evidence they were.
It was up to the first investigation to find evidence about what had occured and whatever their reasons were they failed. As Pedro do Carmo said in 2017, all possbilities were still being considered. They still didn't have enough evidence to identify the crime. That's why I think theorising about 'watchers' and 'abductors' is somewhat premature when there's no evidence that such people existed.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 01:53:24 PM
Well I'll ask this: Do you think it is impossible for cadaver odour to permeate a couple of inches of concrete?
"A cadaver dog can actually detect human remains through concrete, buried underground, or at the bottom of a body of water, using its extremely well-honed noses to search for faint traces of the chemicals emitted by the human body during decomposition. " https://behindthecrime.wordpress.com/about/the-working-dogs/
Morse couldn't detect cadaver odour through a brown paper bag in the lane case
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 04, 2019, 01:53:50 PM
No bodies, under concrete or otherwise, were found at Haute de la Garenne. Everybody knows this and have done for quite some considerable time. So where did Amaral get this idea from?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 01:55:29 PM
You started off saying Grime claimed that Eddie had alerted to a body under concrete.
This has now morphed into Amaral's saying, with no mention of Grime.
Worse, your 'cite' does not even say Eddie alerted over concrete. It says Eddie assisted in a search. In reality, it is common knowledge that Eddie was deployed on the Jersey case.
You must have been reading a different forum... My cite is still there and the cite makes the claim that Eddie alerted to a body under a slab of concrete
..
More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 01:56:31 PM
It was up to the first investigation to find evidence about what had occured and whatever their reasons were they failed. As Pedro do Carmo said in 2017, all possbilities were still being considered. They still didn't have enough evidence to identify the crime. That's why I think theorising about 'watchers' and 'abductors' is somewhat premature when there's no evidence that such people existed.
He said no evidence against the mccanns
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 04, 2019, 01:57:58 PM
Well I'll ask this: Do you think it is impossible for cadaver odour to permeate a couple of inches of concrete?
"A cadaver dog can actually detect human remains through concrete, buried underground, or at the bottom of a body of water, using its extremely well-honed noses to search for faint traces of the chemicals emitted by the human body during decomposition. " https://behindthecrime.wordpress.com/about/the-working-dogs/
Davel, howabout answering this question: Do you think it is impossible for cadaver odour to permeate a couple of inches of concrete?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 04, 2019, 02:07:47 PM
It was up to the first investigation to find evidence about what had occured and whatever their reasons were they failed. As Pedro do Carmo said in 2017, all possbilities were still being considered. They still didn't have enough evidence to identify the crime. That's why I think theorising about 'watchers' and 'abductors' is somewhat premature when there's no evidence that such people existed.
Not all crimes are solved whether it be PJ, SY, FBI or some other outfit. And some are solved in terms of a conviction and then years/decades later found to be miscarriages of justice.
Who would you like to theorise about? The McCanns along with Murat were made aguidos - that status has long since been removed because there was nothing to underpin it.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 04, 2019, 02:08:42 PM
Davel, howabout answering this question: Do you think it is impossible for cadaver odour to permeate a couple of inches of concrete?
its amatter of permeability isnt it.......i dont really have a clue....but I would have thought it would permeate brown paper....but it seems it didnt in the Lane case
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 04, 2019, 02:41:54 PM
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6106.msg542167#msg542167 I think you have misunderstood the conversation SIl
Not in the slightest.
When G-Unit is quoted as "... I'm discussing the never ending attempts to discredit Grime and his dogs." the reply to this is clearly and unambiguously attempting to discredit Grime and his dogs.
There is no mention of Amaral in that post. Not even now that Davel has chosen to go back and amend it.
Perhaps you have conversations where the topic suddenly switches like that and you can make the jump across the disconnect. I do joined up communications.
By the way.
Have you noticed you are pursuing whether Eddie alerted to a body through concrete? When the substance was not concrete? And there's no evidence of such an alert by Eddie? And no such claim by Amaral, or by Grime?
Classic deflection, Grime-bashing, Eddie-bashing and Amaral-bashing. Obviously IMO.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 02:51:42 PM
When G-Unit is quoted as "... I'm discussing the never ending attempts to discredit Grime and his dogs." the reply to this is clearly and unambiguously attempting to discredit Grime and his dogs.
There is no mention of Amaral in that post. Not even now that Davel has chosen to go back and amend it.
Perhaps you have conversations where the topic suddenly switches like that and you can make the jump across the disconnect. I do joined up communications.
By the way.
Have you noticed you are pursuing whether Eddie alerted to a body through concrete? When the substance was not concrete? And there's no evidence of such an alert by Eddie? And no such claim by Amaral, or by Grime?
Classic deflection, Grime-bashing, Eddie-bashing and Amaral-bashing. Obviously IMO.
And this post is a classic example of absolute rubbish
As I dint believe a body was found under concrete it's no criticism of grime or his dogs.. You've made a very silly error.. Best just admit it
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 04, 2019, 03:10:43 PM
When G-Unit is quoted as "... I'm discussing the never ending attempts to discredit Grime and his dogs." the reply to this is clearly and unambiguously attempting to discredit Grime and his dogs.
There is no mention of Amaral in that post. Not even now that Davel has chosen to go back and amend it.
Perhaps you have conversations where the topic suddenly switches like that and you can make the jump across the disconnect. I do joined up communications.
By the way.
Have you noticed you are pursuing whether Eddie alerted to a body through concrete? When the substance was not concrete? And there's no evidence of such an alert by Eddie? And no such claim by Amaral, or by Grime?
Classic deflection, Grime-bashing, Eddie-bashing and Amaral-bashing. Obviously IMO.
More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder.
flagstone a large, flat piece of stone or concrete used for paths, floors, etc.
so according to amaral in his book eddie alerted to a body under a flagstone...I think my post is accurate ...yours isnt.
its not Grime or dog bashing ...its very critical of amaral but it criticism based on fact
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 04, 2019, 04:54:40 PM
More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder.
flagstone a large, flat piece of stone or concrete used for paths, floors, etc.
Perhaps you need to get on to Wikipedia to tell them that you know more about flagstone and concrete blocks than they do.
(&^&
Flagstone (flag) is a generic flat stone, cutting regular rectangular or square in shape and usually used for paving slabs or walkways, patios, flooring, fences and roofing. It may be used for memorials, headstones, facades and other construction. The name derives from Middle English flagge meaning turf, perhaps from Old Norse flaga meaning slab or chip.[1]
House on Westray, Orkney, with flagstone roof Flagstone is a sedimentary rock that is split into layers along bedding planes. Flagstone is usually a form of a sandstone composed of feldspar and quartz and is arenaceous in grain size (0.16 mm – 2 mm in diameter). The material that binds flagstone is usually composed of silica, calcite, or iron oxide. The rock color usually comes from these cementing materials. Typical flagstone colors are red, blue, and buff, though exotic colors exist.
Flagstone is quarried in places with bedded sedimentary rocks with fissile bedding planes.
Flagstones of various sizes Around the thirteenth century, the ceilings, walls and floors in European architecture became more ornate. Anglo-Saxons in particular used flagstones as flooring materials in the interior rooms of castles and other structures.[2] Lindisfarne Castle in England and Muchalls Castle (14th century) in Scotland are among many examples of buildings with surviving flagstone floors.
so according to amaral in his book eddie alerted to a body under a flagstone...I think my post is accurate ...yours isnt.
its not Grime or dog bashing ...its very critical of amaral but it criticism based on fact
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 05:10:02 PM
would you like to defend this claim by amaral in his documentary..
23.29 – The investigation uses two very special dogs that are used by the English and North American police, that have successfully solved over 200 cases
another load of codswallop....but you probably believe it all
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2019, 05:24:06 PM
Not all crimes are solved whether it be PJ, SY, FBI or some other outfit. And some are solved in terms of a conviction and then years/decades later found to be miscarriages of justice.
Who would you like to theorise about? The McCanns along with Murat were made aguidos - that status has long since been removed because there was nothing to underpin it.
I don't see this case ever being solved tbh. Why not look for evidence and theorise about that?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2019, 05:44:51 PM
its amatter of permeability isnt it.......i dont really have a clue....but I would have thought it would permeate brown paper....but it seems it didnt in the Lane case
Didn't you read in the white paper or somewhere else that Grime was trying to invent a machine that filtered cadaver odour, so the components that make up the species specific component must be quite large to do that.
Brown paper might just be such a filter component. This is the second observation that suggested cadaver dogs are not really smelling gases as such but physical chunks of something. Remember the time in the McCann's apartment he was explaining how the cadaver odour could be concentrated by air flow? That virtually tells us it is solids rather than gases. Maybe they are accumulations of fatty materials that are species specific.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 03:44:52 AM
It comes back to that bag in the wardrobe. It is in the photo taken at night but doesn't appear to be there in the next day photo. Who moved that bag and when?
The bag in the first photo is pictured almost exactly where Eddie alerts.
Also with regards to the time cadaver odour first starts to develop the times quoted on the previous page are averages. The decay process of vertebrates begins rapidly after death (i.e. "four minutes after death") [Vass, A.A. Understanding Human Decomposition] and leads to the release of postmortem compounds in the ecosystem . These cadaveric compounds, mainly volatile organic compounds (VOCs), are by- or end-products of the decay process. Using dogs it has been shown to be detectable as soon as 30 85 minutes after the time of death (Cadaver Scent Project)
For a possible time of death, IMO, we need to look at the period between the last independent sighting and 30-60 at least 85 minutes before the latest reported time that the alarm was raised (22:15). Another possibility would be to conclude that Eddie alerted to blood behind the sofa and not cadaver odour. In addition a body may have been concealed in the cupboard in 5A and removed some hours later. This last scenario (which seems unlikely due to the risk of detection) would rule out GM being the man Martin Smith saw carrying a child.
Another scenario that would explain Eddie's and Keela's alerts only at locations directly associated with the McCann's would be that someone using the McCann's apartment or hire car or items of clothing has been in close proximity with a corpse and had introduced cross contamination. Is there any truth in the stories that KM tried to explain away the alerts by saying she had attended a number of post mortems and she had taken her daughter's favorite comfort toy with her!?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 04:05:06 AM
Didn't you read in the white paper or somewhere else that Grime was trying to invent a machine that filtered cadaver odour, so the components that make up the species specific component must be quite large to do that.
Brown paper might just be such a filter component. This is the second observation that suggested cadaver dogs are not really smelling gases as such but physical chunks of something. Remember the time in the McCann's apartment he was explaining how the cadaver odour could be concentrated by air flow? That virtually tells us it is solids rather than gases. Maybe they are accumulations of fatty materials that are species specific.
This will help you understand what is occurring:
Enhanced Characterization of the Smell of Death by Comprehensive Two-Dimensional Gas Chromatography-Time-of-Flight Mass Spectrometry (GCxGC-TOFMS). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3377612/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3377612/)
Or this one but you have to pay to read the full article... Decomposing Human Blood: Canine Detection Odor Signature and Volatile Organic Compounds, Journal of Forensic Sciences https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1556-4029.2008.00680.x (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1556-4029.2008.00680.x)
" This study, conducted at the University of Tennessee’s Anthropological Research Facility (ARF), lists and ranks the primary chemical constituents which define the odor of decomposition of human remains as detected at the soil surface of shallow burial sites. Triple sorbent traps were used to collect air samples in the field and revealed eight major classes of chemicals which now contain 478 specific volatile compounds associated with burial decomposition. Samples were analyzed using gas chromatography‐mass spectrometry (GC‐MS) and were collected below and above the body, and at the soil surface of 1.5–3.5 ft. (0.46–1.07 m) deep burial sites of four individuals over a 4‐year time span. New data were incorporated into the previously established Decompositional Odor Analysis (DOA) Database providing identification, chemical trends, and semi‐quantitation of chemicals for evaluation. This research identifies the “odor signatures” unique to the decomposition of buried human remains with projected ramifications on human remains detection canine training procedures and in the development of field portable analytical instruments which can be used to locate human remains in shallow burial sites."
Same with this one: Odor Analysis of Decomposing Buried Human Remains https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1556-4029.13901 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1556-4029.13901)
"The admissibility of human “odor mortis” discrimination in courts depends on the lack of comprehension of volatile organic compounds (VOCs) during the human decay process and of the lack in standardized procedures in training cadaver dogs. Blood was collected from four young people who died from traffic accidents and analyzed using HS‐SPME/GC‐MS at different decompositional stages. Two dogs, professionally trained, were tested to exactly locate blood samples, for each time point of the experiment. We found a long list of VOCs which varied from fresh to decomposed blood samples, showing differences in specific compounds. Dog performance showed a positive predictive value between 98.96% and 100% for DOG A, and between 99.47% and 100% for DOG B. Our findings demonstrated that decomposing human blood is a good source of VOCs and a good target for canine training."
Good to see that forensic science takes the use of CSI and EVRD dogs seriously - even if the internet forums are littered with sceptics!!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 06:53:32 AM
My apologies. I was mistaken. The source wasn't Grime... but I suspect from an unsubstantiated claim I read (or saw) elsewhere.
I have edited that post (with strike through - so you can still see my incorrect timing). It now reads as follows:
The bag in the first photo is pictured almost exactly where Eddie alerts.
Also with regards to the time cadaver odour first starts to develop the times quoted on the previous page are averages. The decay process of vertebrates begins rapidly after death (i.e. "four minutes after death") [Vass, A.A. Understanding Human Decomposition] and leads to the release of postmortem compounds in the ecosystem . These cadaveric compounds, mainly volatile organic compounds (VOCs), are by- or end-products of the decay process. Using dogs it has been shown to be detectable as soon as 30 85 minutes after the time of death (Cadaver Scent Project)
For a possible time of death, IMO, we need to look at the period between the last independent sighting and 30-60 at least 85 minutes before the latest reported time that the alarm was raised (22:15). Another possibility would be to conclude that Eddie alerted to blood behind the sofa and not cadaver odour. In addition a body may have been concealed in the cupboard in 5A and removed some hours later. This last scenario (which seems unlikely due to the risk of detection) would rule out GM being the man Martin Smith saw carrying a child.
Another scenario that would explain Eddie's and Keela's alerts only at locations directly associated with the McCann's would be that someone using the McCann's apartment or hire car or items of clothing has been in close proximity with a corpse and had introduced cross contamination. Is there any truth in the stories that KM tried to explain away the alerts by saying she had attended a number of post mortems and she had taken her daughter's favorite comfort toy with her!?
No ...no truth in the claims re Kate
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 06:59:29 AM
Enhanced Characterization of the Smell of Death by Comprehensive Two-Dimensional Gas Chromatography-Time-of-Flight Mass Spectrometry (GCxGC-TOFMS). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3377612/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3377612/)
Or this one but you have to pay to read the full article... Decomposing Human Blood: Canine Detection Odor Signature and Volatile Organic Compounds, Journal of Forensic Sciences https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1556-4029.2008.00680.x (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1556-4029.2008.00680.x)
" This study, conducted at the University of Tennessee’s Anthropological Research Facility (ARF), lists and ranks the primary chemical constituents which define the odor of decomposition of human remains as detected at the soil surface of shallow burial sites. Triple sorbent traps were used to collect air samples in the field and revealed eight major classes of chemicals which now contain 478 specific volatile compounds associated with burial decomposition. Samples were analyzed using gas chromatography‐mass spectrometry (GC‐MS) and were collected below and above the body, and at the soil surface of 1.5–3.5 ft. (0.46–1.07 m) deep burial sites of four individuals over a 4‐year time span. New data were incorporated into the previously established Decompositional Odor Analysis (DOA) Database providing identification, chemical trends, and semi‐quantitation of chemicals for evaluation. This research identifies the “odor signatures” unique to the decomposition of buried human remains with projected ramifications on human remains detection canine training procedures and in the development of field portable analytical instruments which can be used to locate human remains in shallow burial sites."
Same with this one: Odor Analysis of Decomposing Buried Human Remains https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1556-4029.13901 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1556-4029.13901)
"The admissibility of human “odor mortis” discrimination in courts depends on the lack of comprehension of volatile organic compounds (VOCs) during the human decay process and of the lack in standardized procedures in training cadaver dogs. Blood was collected from four young people who died from traffic accidents and analyzed using HS‐SPME/GC‐MS at different decompositional stages. Two dogs, professionally trained, were tested to exactly locate blood samples, for each time point of the experiment. We found a long list of VOCs which varied from fresh to decomposed blood samples, showing differences in specific compounds. Dog performance showed a positive predictive value between 98.96% and 100% for DOG A, and between 99.47% and 100% for DOG B. Our findings demonstrated that decomposing human blood is a good source of VOCs and a good target for canine training."
Good to see that forensic science takes the use of CSI and EVRD dogs seriously - even if the internet forums are littered with sceptics!!
Unfortunately you have missed the point ss have others and still do after 12 years.
There is no doubt that cadaver dogs can detect cadaver odour and are a very useful forensic tool... No doubt at all..
The problem is... Is every alert in the field as reliable as the alerts in their controlled tests.... That question has never been addressed by those who have designed the tests and has therefore never been answered
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 05, 2019, 07:14:57 AM
Unfortunately you have missed the point ss have others and still do after 12 years.
There is no doubt that cadaver dogs can detect cadaver odour and are a very useful forensic tool... No doubt at all..
The problem is... Is every alert in the field as reliable as the alerts in their controlled tests.... That question has never been addressed by those who have designed the tests and has therefore never been answered
The point is that you don't know what occured in the dog's lives.
I don't know about all dogs, but I believe Grime's dogs were trained every day. I expect that included various locations, and records were kept. Assessments would also have included different locations.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 07:17:01 AM
The point is that you don't know what occured in the dog's lives.
I don't know about all dogs, but I believe Grime's dogs were trained every day. I expect that included various locations, and records were kept. Assessments would also have included different locations.
You don't know as you admit. The question I have posed had not been answered... It's quite clear from what we do know that the tests were very simple...target odour or not
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 07:34:52 AM
In the US there has been a similar situation with the acceptance if canine evidence in scent line ups... Leading to many wrongful convictions... This evidence was accepted by many courts before being deemed unreliable... The judges were fooled
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 05, 2019, 07:55:46 AM
In the US there has been a similar situation with the acceptance if canine evidence in scent line ups... Leading to many wrongful convictions... This evidence was accepted by many courts before being deemed unreliable... The judges were fooled
Which is it? Singular or plural? And can you provide a cite(s)? I don't ask for cites, because I think it's all a bit lame, but I've looked and can't find what you're referring to.
Scratch that, I've found it. https://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/us/04scent.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/us/04scent.html) But this looks like a rogue deputy. 10 years ago.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 07:59:32 AM
My apologies. I was mistaken. The source wasn't Grime... but I suspect from an unsubstantiated claim I read (or saw) elsewhere.
I have edited that post (with strike through - so you can still see my incorrect timing). It now reads as follows:
The bag in the first photo is pictured almost exactly where Eddie alerts.
Also with regards to the time cadaver odour first starts to develop the times quoted on the previous page are averages. The decay process of vertebrates begins rapidly after death (i.e. "four minutes after death") [Vass, A.A. Understanding Human Decomposition] and leads to the release of postmortem compounds in the ecosystem . These cadaveric compounds, mainly volatile organic compounds (VOCs), are by- or end-products of the decay process. Using dogs it has been shown to be detectable as soon as 30 85 minutes after the time of death (Cadaver Scent Project)
For a possible time of death, IMO, we need to look at the period between the last independent sighting and 30-60 at least 85 minutes before the latest reported time that the alarm was raised (22:15). Another possibility would be to conclude that Eddie alerted to blood behind the sofa and not cadaver odour. In addition a body may have been concealed in the cupboard in 5A and removed some hours later. This last scenario (which seems unlikely due to the risk of detection) would rule out GM being the man Martin Smith saw carrying a child.
Another scenario that would explain Eddie's and Keela's alerts only at locations directly associated with the McCann's would be that someone using the McCann's apartment or hire car or items of clothing has been in close proximity with a corpse and had introduced cross contamination. Is there any truth in the stories that KM tried to explain away the alerts by saying she had attended a number of post mortems and she had taken her daughter's favorite comfort toy with her!?
Thanks for the admission. Now perhaps you’d like to try and figure out how the cadaver odour emanated from Madeleine’s corpse in the time frame, working with all the known facts.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 07:59:55 AM
Which is it? Singular or plural? And can you provide a cite(s)? I don't ask for cites, because I think it's all a bit lame, but I've looked and can't find what you're referring to.
situations....and thats a very raesoanble request for a cite....its an interesting topic. Just to say... I dont tink grime is dishonest as two of these handlers were....but the similarity is canine evidence being admitted without proper testing...that leaves the situation open to abuse...ill find it now
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 08:00:30 AM
The point is that you don't know what occured in the dog's lives.
I don't know about all dogs, but I believe Grime's dogs were trained every day. I expect that included various locations, and records were kept. Assessments would also have included different locations.
I thought you didn’t do beliefs?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 05, 2019, 08:05:20 AM
situations....and thats a very raesoanble request for a cite....its an interesting topic. Just to say... I dont tink grime is dishonest as two of these handlers were....but the similarity is canine evidence being admitted without proper testing...that leaves the situation open to abuse...ill find it now
No need, I found it and modified my post.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 08:05:57 AM
Thanks for the admission. Now perhaps you’d like to try and figure out how the cadaver odour emanated from Madeleine’s corpse in the time frame, working with all the known facts.
What time frame?
The dogs didn't go in 30 or 85 minutes later.
They went in months later.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 05, 2019, 08:09:57 AM
I agree. The use of dogs in such circumstances is unreliable at best. Not casting aspersions, but it would seem that some of police forces in these Southern states were left to their own devices when creating policy and procedure.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 08:11:42 AM
you completely misunderstand the situation...what relevance is there to how long after the dogs went in re development of cadaver odour...youve made the same post before and shown to be wrong. note we are talking about the detection and development of cadaver odour...not blood
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 08:12:46 AM
I agree. The use of dogs in such circumstances is unreliable at best. Not casting aspersions, but it would seem that some of police forces in these Southern states were left to their own devices when creating policy and procedure.
but it wasnt considered unreliable at the time...it was accepted as evidence and suspects were convicted
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 05, 2019, 08:18:40 AM
you completely misunderstand the situation...what relevance is there to how long after the dogs went in re development of cadaver odour...youve made the same post before and shown to be wrong. note we are talking about the detection and development of cadaver odour...not blood
Where to begin?
Note the thread title.
I'd be grateful if you would cut the goad per post. The forum would be much more civilised.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 08:18:48 AM
As the dogs did not enter 5A on 3 May, it's the wrong time frame.
But many thanks for a civil answer. *&(+(+
I don’t understand what you mean. I am asking Billy to think about how the alerts months later could have been to Madeleine’s body within the timeframe of the events of the evening of May 3rd if it takes 85 minutes before a body starts to emit cadaver odour. If you don’t understand what I’m saying that’s fine, I expect Billy will and look forward to his reply. Adieu.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 08:53:48 AM
I'd be grateful if you would cut the goad per post. The forum would be much more civilised.
Perhaps you can justify your claim... You can't because you've made the same claim before... You are considering blood... Not cadaver... I've got a good memory
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 08:55:22 AM
I don’t understand what you mean. I am asking Billy to think about how the alerts months later could have been to Madeleine’s body within the timeframe of the events of the evening of May 3rd if it takes 85 minutes before a body starts to emit cadaver odour. If you don’t understand what I’m saying that’s fine, I expect Billy will and look forward to his reply. Adieu.
Sil is talking about the alerts to blood not cadaver....
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 05, 2019, 08:59:59 AM
The bag in the first photo is pictured almost exactly where Eddie alerts.
Also with regards to the time cadaver odour first starts to develop the times quoted on the previous page are averages. The decay process of vertebrates begins rapidly after death (i.e. "four minutes after death") [Vass, A.A. Understanding Human Decomposition] and leads to the release of postmortem compounds in the ecosystem . These cadaveric compounds, mainly volatile organic compounds (VOCs), are by- or end-products of the decay process. Using dogs it has been shown to be detectable as soon as 30 85 minutes after the time of death (Cadaver Scent Project)
For a possible time of death, IMO, we need to look at the period between the last independent sighting and 30-60 at least 85 minutes before the latest reported time that the alarm was raised (22:15). Another possibility would be to conclude that Eddie alerted to blood behind the sofa and not cadaver odour. In addition a body may have been concealed in the cupboard in 5A and removed some hours later. This last scenario (which seems unlikely due to the risk of detection) would rule out GM being the man Martin Smith saw carrying a child.
Another scenario that would explain Eddie's alerts only at locations directly associated with the McCann's would be that someone using the McCann's apartment or hire car or items of clothing has been in close proximity with a corpse and had introduced cross contamination. Is there any truth in the stories that KM tried to explain away the alerts by saying she had attended a number of post mortems and she had taken her daughter's favorite comfort toy with her!?
You mentioned the case of Shannon Matthews in one of your posts. This is what The Nat Policing Agency said in a review of the case which included the use of Victim Recovery Dogs:
"The properties that the dog searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died. This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."
5A didn't belong to the McCann's. They simply rented if for 7 nights. How would anyone know the history of the place in terms of materials used in construction, construction workers, fixtures and fittings, furniture and human traffic any of which may have come into contact with a corpse directly or indirectly and then caused the dog to alert?
The only owner occupier in the block was Mrs Fenn situated directly above 5A. Prior to purchasing her apt at OC she lived elsewhere in Portugal with her husband who suffered Alzheimer's. Upon his demise she purchased the apt. Is it possible the dog alerts were connected to Mrs Fenn's apt?
Re the hire car were the control cars like for like ie hired or similar? If the control cars sustained far fewer drivers/passengers then there's less likelihood of them coming into contact directly or indirectly with a corpse. For all we know the hire car might have been rented by an undertaker. What checks if any were carried out on the cars to determine their history?
Afaik the substance thought to be blood as evidenced by the dog alert wasn't visible to the naked eye? LCN DNA tests were inconclusive. Therefore it seems to me if the substance was blood the potential sources are many and varied: people cut themselves shaving or on sharp implements, children have bangs and scrapes, women have periods, etc, etc.
I'm not a McCann supporter just looking at reasonable explanations for the alerts other than something sinister.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 05, 2019, 09:35:47 AM
In the US there has been a similar situation with the acceptance if canine evidence in scent line ups... Leading to many wrongful convictions... This evidence was accepted by many courts before being deemed unreliable... The judges were fooled
The US isn't really relevant when looking at Grime's dogs. When it came to setting national training and assessment standards the UK were ahead of the US. ACPO had set the standards for regional forces to meet.
That's why Stockham needed Grime when he set out to found a canine forensic program for the FBI. One of his aims was to improve the performance and reliability of detector dogs in the US and Grime was the UK expert in training and handling these dogs.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 09:38:36 AM
The US isn't really relevant when looking at Grime's dogs. When it came to setting national training and assessment standatds the UK were ahead of the US, ACPO had set the standards for regional forces to meet.
That's why Stockham needed Grime when he set out to found a canine forensic program for the FBI. One of his aims was to improve the performance and reliability of detector dogs in the US and Grime was the UK expert in training and handling these dogs.
Do you have a cite for the UK was, ahead
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 05, 2019, 09:43:32 AM
You mentioned the case of Shannon Matthews in one of your posts. This is what The Nat Policing Agency said in a review of the case which included the use of Victim Recovery Dogs:
"The properties that the dog searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died. This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."
5A didn't belong to the McCann's. They simply rented if for 7 nights. How would anyone know the history of the place in terms of materials used in construction, construction workers, fixtures and fittings, furniture and human traffic any of which may have come into contact with a corpse directly or indirectly and then caused the dog to alert?
The only owner occupier in the block was Mrs Fenn situated directly above 5A. Prior to purchasing her apt at OC she lived elsewhere in Portugal with her husband who suffered Alzheimer's. Upon his demise she purchased the apt. Is it possible the dog alerts were connected to Mrs Fenn's apt?
Re the hire car were the control cars like for like ie hired or similar? If the control cars sustained far fewer drivers/passengers then there's less likelihood of them coming into contact directly or indirectly with a corpse. For all we know the hire car might have been rented by an undertaker. What checks if any were carried out on the cars to determine their history?
Afaik the substance thought to be blood as evidenced by the dog alert wasn't visible to the naked eye? LCN DNA tests were inconclusive. Therefore it seems to me if the substance was blood the potential sources are many and varied: people cut themselves shaving or on sharp implements, children have bangs and scrapes, women have periods, etc, etc.
I'm not a McCann supporter just looking at reasonable explanations for the alerts other than something sinister.
Do we know if Mrs Fenn’s husband died in hospital and if so why would she have taken anything he had with him at the time to her new apartment?
I asked you on the ‘smells’ thread but I don’t think you answered. Why did the dog not alert to any of the tapas group’s apartments or belongings ? Each couple included a medic and their apartments were all rentals, facts you think may have been significant.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 05, 2019, 09:50:26 AM
Do we know if Mrs Fenn’s husband died in hospital and if so why would she have taken anything he had with him at the time to her new apartment?
I asked you on the ‘smells’ thread but I don’t think you answered. Why did the dog not alert to any of the tapas group’s apartments or belongings ? Each couple included a medic and their apartments were all rentals, facts you think may have been significant.
Martin Grime didn't half shift through the other appartments.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 05, 2019, 09:54:44 AM
I’d assume that’s because he saw no change of behaviour from the dogs. Remember that Eddie’s behaviour changed as he entered the apartment.
There's a lot of assuming going on. Eddie nearly galloped down the path to 5a, before he got anywhere near the front door, and I very much doubt any cadaver odour would travel that far. I think Eddie knew he was going for his fun game.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 05, 2019, 10:04:13 AM
Do we know if Mrs Fenn’s husband died in hospital and if so why would she have taken anything he had with him at the time to her new apartment?
I've no idea where Mr Fenn died but we can see from the Shannon Matthews case the potential for contamination is significant ie second-hand furniture obtained from dwellings where someone had died.
I asked you on the ‘smells’ thread but I don’t think you answered. Why did the dog not alert to any of the tapas group’s apartments or belongings ? Each couple included a medic and their apartments were all rentals, facts you think may have been significant.
Based on the construction of apartments I think the potential for odours to seep downwards as opposed to sideways might be the answer. I say this on the basis that I once lived in an apartment and despite being a non-smoker I detected on occasions the smell of cigarettes which I could only put down to the woman who lived below who was a smoker. I think the smell may have emanated from the plumbing as all doors and windows were closed. The woman was an every day smoker but I could only detect it very infrequently.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 10:06:07 AM
Explain why I'm wrong... Cadaver scent does take time to develop.. If Maddie was, removed there would be no cadaver odour... That makes the time frame around an hour minimum
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 05, 2019, 10:06:41 AM
I’d assume that’s because he saw no change of behaviour from the dogs. Remember that Eddie’s behaviour changed as he entered the apartment.
Was 5a the first apartment Eddie searched? In which case he was eager to start. The apartment was close up and it was a hot day, you could tell by the way Eddie was panting that he was hot. Other families had stayed in 5a after the McCann's so who knows what smells were left from them.IMO
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 10:07:40 AM
If Maddie died in 5a and was removed within 30 to 45 mins there would be no alert It takes time, fir the odour to develop
No alert by Eddie.... apart from an alert to blood, you mean? I still see the issue here. There was no blood found in the cupboard and Grime’s experience (plus lack of body) led him to conclude the scent in the cupboard might be airborne VOCs that had collected in that area because of the airflow in the unused apartment. Was any questions asked about that sports bag? Or did GA settle for Grime’s explanation?
One thing is almost certain. The source of the cadaver odour in 5A must have been in the apartment for a minimum of 85 minutes.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: barrier on July 05, 2019, 10:23:17 AM
There are two big if's imo,If Madeleine was abducted where the devil is she,If Madeleine died in 5a where the devil is she,bearing in mind the digs and Dick recently saying she is unsure if it ever will be solved.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 05, 2019, 10:25:23 AM
Strange isn't it, Eddies eagerness to get into 5a is explained as Eddie has scented something, yet Eddie's eagerness to leave the rooms, isn't, Eddie hasn't scented anything. IMO
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 05, 2019, 10:25:32 AM
There's a lot of assuming going on. Eddie nearly galloped down the path to 5a, before he got anywhere near the front door, and I very much doubt any cadaver odour would travel that far. I think Eddie knew he was going for his fun game.
Yet he didn’t think he was going for his ‘fun game’ in the other apartments. Why not ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 05, 2019, 10:26:38 AM
No alert by Eddie.... apart from an alert to blood, you mean? I still see the issue here. There was no blood found in the cupboard and Grime’s experience (plus lack of body) led him to conclude the scent in the cupboard might be airborne VOCs that had collected in that area because of the airflow in the unused apartment. Was any questions asked about that sports bag? Or did GA settle for Grime’s explanation?
One thing is almost certain. The source of the cadaver odour in 5A must have been in the apartment for a minimum of 85 minutes.
Who said it was a sports bag? What if Eddie had been sniffing where the dirty washing would have been kept? Not only by the McCann's but by the other families who stayed in 5a after the McCann's.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 05, 2019, 10:33:27 AM
The time frame of the evening of 3rd May 2007 of course.
It’s of central importance. The time from 17:30 - 22:15 is of particular interest. To conclude Madeleine McCann’s death in the apartment that day you have to have a minimum of 85 minutes that she lay dead inside the apartment. Important to note that the body doesn’t need to be in one place. Is this possible between the last independent sighting and the alarm being raised?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 05, 2019, 10:35:49 AM
No alert by Eddie.... apart from an alert to blood, you mean? I still see the issue here. There was no blood found in the cupboard and Grime’s experience (plus lack of body) led him to conclude the scent in the cupboard might be airborne VOCs that had collected in that area because of the airflow in the unused apartment. Was any questions asked about that sports bag? Or did GA settle for Grime’s explanation?
One thing is almostcertain. The source of the cadaver odour in 5A must have been in the apartment for a minimum of 85 minutes.
How come? Why not potentially a shorter period?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 10:36:11 AM
There are two big if's imo,If Madeleine was abducted where the devil is she,If Madeleine died in 5a where the devil is she,bearing in mind the digs and Dick recently saying she is unsure if it ever will be solved.
Also bear in mind that GM is extremely confident her body will not be found, IMO.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 05, 2019, 10:37:10 AM
Strange isn't it, Eddies eagerness to get into 5a is explained as Eddie has scented something, yet Eddie's eagerness to leave the rooms, isn't, Eddie hasn't scented anything. IMO
But Eddie alerted in more than one place. I suggest, with all respect, you read some forensic science articles on canine alerts and cadaveric VOCs. Your statement is not plausible, IMO.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 05, 2019, 10:42:07 AM
I've no idea where Mr Fenn died but we can see from the Shannon Matthews case the potential for contamination is significant ie second-hand furniture obtained from dwellings where someone had died.
Based on the construction of apartments I think the potential for odours to seep downwards as opposed to sideways might be the answer. I say this on the basis that I once lived in an apartment and despite being a non-smoker I detected on occasions the smell of cigarettes which I could only put down to the woman who lived below who was a smoker. I think the smell may have emanated from the plumbing as all doors and windows were closed. The woman was an every day smoker but I could only detect it very infrequently.
But you’re hypothesising that the cadaver smell was coming from Mrs Fenn’s apartment yet, as far as we know, cadaver odour does not ‘seep’ through walls and further there is no evidence any of Mrs Fenn’s furniture was second hand or that her husband had not died in hospital or indeed that she had transferred any of the clothing/items associated with him at his death to her new home.
Would you care to answer my question re-the rest of the tapas group’s lack of cadaver contamination?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 10:42:49 AM
Was 5a the first apartment Eddie searched? In which case he was eager to start. The apartment was close up and it was a hot day, you could tell by the way Eddie was panting that he was hot. Other families had stayed in 5a after the McCann's so who knows what smells were left from them.IMO
Yet no alerts in any property associated with the rest of the tapas group or Murat. Why not ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 10:44:27 AM
Who said it was a sports bag? What if Eddie had been sniffing where the dirty washing would have been kept? Not only by the McCann's but by the other families who stayed in 5a after the McCann's.
Do you mean he was then alerting to previous presence of cadaver odour on clothes? I wonder what the contact time has to be allow for cross contamination?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 05, 2019, 10:44:47 AM
There's a lot of assuming going on. Eddie nearly galloped down the path to 5a, before he got anywhere near the front door, and I very much doubt any cadaver odour would travel that far. I think Eddie knew he was going for his fun game.
I think you have hit one nail on the head, though I'm not sure you fully understand why.
I haven't seen 'supporters' raise this point before.
Try role-playing Eddie.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 10:51:23 AM
Because in tests with cadaver dogs we know that although cadaveric VOCs might start to be produced four minutes after death it takes 85 minutes before a trained and specialised dog can successfully detect the odour with a very high degree of accuracy. Therefore a corpse would have had to have been in the apartment for 85 minutes or more for there to be enough odour for Eddie to alert as he did
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 05, 2019, 10:56:53 AM
Do you mean he was then alerting to previous presence of cadaver odour on clothes? I wonder what the contact time has to be allow for cross contamination?
No he could have been sniffing the scent of blood that had been on dirty washing, either McCann's or one of the other families.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 05, 2019, 10:57:36 AM
Explain why I'm wrong... Cadaver scent does take time to develop.. If Maddie was, removed there would be no cadaver odour... That makes the time frame around an hour minimum
Explain why Gerry McCann is not dead.
Both dogs alerted.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Angelo222 on July 05, 2019, 10:58:01 AM
Yet no alerts in any property associated with the rest of the tapas group or Murat. Why not ?
That is one aspect which always bothered me. Eddie certainly found an odour in 5a which he was familiar with and trained to alert to. I still strongly believe that it had no relevance to Maddie though.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Angelo222 on July 05, 2019, 10:58:46 AM
Explain why I'm wrong... Cadaver scent does take time to develop.. If Maddie was, removed there would be no cadaver odour... That makes the time frame around an hour minimum
I agree.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 05, 2019, 10:59:08 AM
[quote &%%6author=Faithlilly link=topic=6106.msg542466#msg542466 date=1562319887] You really don’t understand dogs, do you ? [/quote]
I understand that Eddie ran out of the bedroom in 5a, had to be called back. Would that had happened if it hadn't been the McCann's apartment?
Eddie ran around the other apartments and wasn't called back.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 05, 2019, 11:00:25 AM
I think you have hit one nail on the head, though I'm not sure you fully understand why.
I haven't seen 'supporters' raise this point before.
Try role-playing Eddie.
My beliefs are based on Logic and Logistics. I have forgotten more than I remember, until someone raises an obscure detail, most of which aren't relevant anyway.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 05, 2019, 11:02:03 AM
My beliefs are based on Logic and Logistics. I have forgotten more than I remember, until someone raises an obscure detail, most of which aren't relevant anyway.
Then I will let sleeping dogs lie.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 05, 2019, 11:04:24 AM
Because in tests with cadaver dogs we know that although cadaveric VOCs might start to be produced four minutes after death it takes 85 minutes before a trained and specialised dog can successfully detect the odour with a very high degree of accuracy. Therefore a corpse would have had to have been in the apartment for 85 minutes or more for there to be enough odour for Eddie to alert as he did
Has the rate of cadaver odour development ever been tested in a child? Is the rate quicker because of the smaller body mass and smaller organs ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 11:09:40 AM
No he could have been sniffing the scent of blood that had been on dirty washing, either McCann's or one of the other families.
Good point - just one problem. There was no blood there. Keela didn’t alert there. You would have to know how long blood odour remains present in a cupboard if a blood spot on a shirt is placed in the cupboard then removed? I’ve not seen anything that claims the dogs are good enough to detect in such a scenario!!!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 11:11:42 AM
But your hypothesising that the cadaver smell was coming from Mrs Fenn’s apartment yet, as far as we know, cadaver odour does not ‘seep’ through walls and further there is no evidence any of Mrs Fenn’s furniture was second hand or that her husband had not died in hospital or indeed that she had transferred any of the clothing/items associated with him at his death to her new home.
Would you care to answer my question re-the rest of the tapas group’s lack of cadaver contamination?
A proper investigation/test would seek to eliminate the hypothesis I have put forward by entering the dogs into unrelated neighbouring apartments to rule out any contamination AND check on the history of 5A by way of contents and people traffic.
I find it hard to believe that Mrs Fenn's apt didn't contain some items she owned jointly with her late husband. They were married for a very long time and the elderly and those of a certain generation tend to get quite attached to their belongings. For all we know he may have died in his bed which was subsequently transferred to Mrs Fenn's. Alternatively Mrs Fenn may have struck up conversation with the owners of 5A and they ended up taking some of the furniture jointly owned by Mrs Fenn and her late husband.
I'm not an architect, plumber or construction worker but I believe plumbing in apartments runs vertically as opposed to horizontally. Only the Oldfields were connected to Mrs Fenn and that was horizontally as opposed to vertically. JT/ROB and Paynes were all one removed I believe and in any event all horizontally.
How do you explain the contaminated furniture in the case of Shannon Matthews? Do you think people died in their beds/chairs/sitting at tables and this furniture was subsequently transferred to the houses that were searched or what? In any event the odour clearly lingers on items that have come into contact with corpses.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 05, 2019, 11:22:28 AM
Good point - just one problem. There was no blood there. Keela didn’t alert there. You would have to know how long blood odour remains present in a cupboard if a blood spot on a shirt is placed in the cupboard then removed? I’ve not seen anything that claims the dogs are good enough to detect in such a scenario!!!
Cadaver dogs can alert to the scent of blood even if the object the blood was on is removed.
Snipped - Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions: Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue; precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent. Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc. Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 05, 2019, 11:58:32 AM
'How long can a trace of blood remain at a scene and be detected by the CSI dog''
During both training and operations, the CSI dog correctly located and signalled the presence of blood from 1960. This is not at all surprising. If enough blood is present so that the dog can recognize its odour, he will locate it and alert to its presence. There is no time restriction as regards the recognition of the odour by the dog. Blood, however, is subject to deterioration such as time and other natural processes such as dilution due to rain and other reactive chemical agents.
Perhaps you can justify your claim... You can't because you've made the same claim before... You are considering blood... Not cadaver... I've got a good memory
SIL is allowed to. A living person could be bleeding, and the blood decomposes and a cadaver dog alerts to it. Blood is the body part in that case, and the amount of time for the decomposition is from when the bleeding occurred right through till they used the cadaver dogs at the scene.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 05, 2019, 12:30:35 PM
Has the rate of cadaver odour development ever been tested in a child? Is the rate quicker because of the smaller body mass and smaller organs ?
I've asked this before and no one took it up,but I wonder logically whether it would be the same,surely cells or whatever that produce the cadaver alert would be be the same in adults as well as children.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 12:36:33 PM
SIL is allowed to. A living person could be bleeding, and the blood decomposes and a cadaver dog alerts to it. Blood is the body part in that case, and the amount of time for the decomposition is from when the bleeding occurred right through till they used the cadaver dogs at the scene.
Then the blood dog would to...I've already said clearly sil was Referring to blood... Not cadaver odour from a cadaver
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 12:37:15 PM
You don't know as you admit. The question I have posed had not been answered... It's quite clear from what we do know that the tests were very simple...target odour or not
That's nonsense. The tests are documented in Forensic Science research articles. Many of these are peer reviewed. These people are forensic scientists - they are designing methods that work... that tell them something about time and location of death.
Please tell us exactly why you think they are flawed in the field. What is the science behind that? Why don't forensic scientists understand these simple failings?!!!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on July 05, 2019, 01:47:59 PM
There's a lot of assuming going on. Eddie nearly galloped down the path to 5a, before he got anywhere near the front door, and I very much doubt any cadaver odour would travel that far. I think Eddie knew he was going for his fun game.
It would have been interesting to know how he would have reacted if 5a had been the last apartment of the day to be checked, would he have still been as bright eyed and bushy tailed, I wonder?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 03:00:26 PM
No alert by Eddie.... apart from an alert to blood, you mean? I still see the issue here. There was no blood found in the cupboard and Grime’s experience (plus lack of body) led him to conclude the scent in the cupboard might be airborne VOCs that had collected in that area because of the airflow in the unused apartment. Was any questions asked about that sports bag? Or did GA settle for Grime’s explanation?
One thing is almost certain. The source of the cadaver odour in 5A must have been in the apartment for a minimum of 85 minutes.
If that’s a definite, then would you like to have a go at estimating the time of death?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 03:02:22 PM
It’s of central importance. The time from 17:30 - 22:15 is of particular interest. To conclude Madeleine McCann’s death in the apartment that day you have to have a minimum of 85 minutes that she lay dead inside the apartment. Important to note that the body doesn’t need to be in one place. Is this possible between the last independent sighting and the alarm being raised?
Yes it’s possible that Madeleine was dead before the McCanns left the apartment, and if that is so, then we can almost certainly rule out an accident. Got any theories as to what might have caused her death?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 03:20:56 PM
If that’s a definite, then would you like to have a go at estimating the time of death?
It's based on current results in trials documented in forensic science articles. Human decomposition has been studied in quite some detail including the release of cadaveric volatile organic compounds. It is these compounds that the dogs are trained to alert to. In terms of verified correct alerts trials have shown "the shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes".
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 03:32:50 PM
It's based on current results in trials documented in forensic science articles. Human decomposition has been studied in quite some detail including the release of cadaveric volatile organic compounds. It is these compounds that the dogs are trained to alert to. In terms of verified correct alerts trials have shown "the shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes".
I meant what time Madeleine would have had to have died at or before in order to be the source of the alert.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 03:33:29 PM
If that’s a definite, then would you like to have a go at estimating the time of death?
That's impossible without knowing when a body was removed from the apartment.
IMO and for the sake of an hypothesis let's suppose the body was removed 21:45. (Keeping the body in a bag in the cupboard overnight is surely too risky once an alarm has been raised). The latest time for a reliable estimate of a time of death is 20:20. The last independent sighting was somewhere around 17:30. IMO I would suggest time of death for this scenario must be between 17:30 and 20:20. Based on this hypothesis David Payne's evidence may be crucial. We need to explore the inconsistencies of his and Kate McCann's account of his visit to 5A, IMO.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 03:35:29 PM
That's nonsense. The tests are documented in Forensic Science research articles. Many of these are peer reviewed. These people are forensic scientists - they are designing methods that work... that tell them something about time and location of death.
Please tell us exactly why you think they are flawed in the field. What is the science behind that? Why don't forensic scientists understand these simple failings?!!!
These tests are assessing a simple situation in controlled conditions.
Clean felt tiles vs tiles contaminated with cadaver odour. That isn't how it is when the dogs work where there may be a multitude of odours...I've outlined a possible test a couple if days, ago. The difference with other scent dogs is drug dogs only react to drugs... Eddie reacts to a multitude of scentsvand that's the problem
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: barrier on July 05, 2019, 03:36:40 PM
These tests are assessing a simple situation in controlled conditions.
Clean felt tiles vs tiles contaminated with cadaver odour. That isn't how it is when the dogs work where there may be a multitude of odours...I've outlined a possible test a couple if days, ago. The difference with other scent dogs is drug dogs only react to drugs... Eddie reacts to a multitude of scentsvand that's the problem
For who?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 03:41:15 PM
Got any theories as to what might have caused her death?
No. You would need to examine the forensic evidence to give you that answer.
I've come across various scenarios: Falling from the sofa; falling from the sofa after ingesting sedative drugs; falling from the sofa after IV injection of drugs; drowning in the bath; allergic reaction to sedative drugs followed by unsuccessful CPR; falling from sofa followed by unsuccessful CPR. These are all just theories (as is abduction by a stranger) put forward on the internet. We would need a proper forensic investigation to truly establish the facts.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 03:44:25 PM
These tests are assessing a simple situation in controlled conditions.
Clean felt tiles vs tiles contaminated with cadaver odour. That isn't how it is when the dogs work where there may be a multitude of odours...I've outlined a possible test a couple if days, ago. The difference with other scent dogs is drug dogs only react to drugs... Eddie reacts to a multitude of scentsvand that's the problem
With all respect I personally believe that forensic scientists have better research and evaluation methods of cadaver dog efficacy than does your good self.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 04:00:46 PM
No. You would need to examine the forensic evidence to give you that answer.
I've come across various scenarios: Falling from the sofa; falling from the sofa after ingesting sedative drugs; falling from the sofa after IV injection of drugs; drowning in the bath; allergic reaction to sedative drugs followed by unsuccessful CPR; falling from sofa followed by unsuccessful CPR. These are all just theories (as is abduction by a stranger) put forward on the internet. We would need a proper forensic investigation to truly establish the facts.
We would also need to consider why, with at least one parent in the apartment when this death allegedly occurred, that the parents considered a cover up over seeking the assitance of the emergency services. That IMO precludes an innocent accident, and leads to a conclusion of foul play. Do you not agree?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 04:25:59 PM
No. You would need to examine the forensic evidence to give you that answer.
I've come across various scenarios: Falling from the sofa; falling from the sofa after ingesting sedative drugs; falling from the sofa after IV injection of drugs; drowning in the bath; allergic reaction to sedative drugs followed by unsuccessful CPR; falling from sofa followed by unsuccessful CPR. These are all just theories (as is abduction by a stranger) put forward on the internet. We would need a proper forensic investigation to truly establish the facts.
Children don't fall off sofas and die
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 04:27:18 PM
With all respect I personally believe that forensic scientists have better research and evaluation methods of cadaver dog efficacy than does your good self.
Depends what questions they are trying to answer.
How reliable are the alerts of the dogs in an actual search
Are they liable to make false alerts to remnant scents of Blood
Sanitary towells Rotten meat Stale urine Faeces Sweaty socks etc I'm talking about remnant scent when the articles have been removed
Are dogs affected by operator bias Will dogs tire and simply alert
Current science hasn't answered these questions so I don't think they're doing a very good job
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 05, 2019, 04:37:25 PM
No they don't... Give me one example from anywhere in the world..
If children do have a fatal head injury from fall then death is caused by subdural haemorrhage which takes about 12 to 24 HRS to kill.... Unless they fall from a reasonable height
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 05, 2019, 04:40:17 PM
No they don't... Give me one example from anywhere in the world..
If children do have a fatal head injury from fall then death is caused by subdural haemorrhage which takes about 12 to 24 HRS to kill.... Unless they fall from a reasonable height
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 05, 2019, 04:45:10 PM
Why? Because due to the fall mechanics and the low height, the body rarely has a chance to make a full rotation, so many falls result in head and spine trauma.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 04:45:57 PM
The parents called the ambulance because the child didn’t die straight away. Any examples of a child dying instantly from falling off a sofa? Because that is the required scenario here to fit the known facts.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 05, 2019, 04:47:31 PM
The parents called the ambulance because the child didn’t die straight away. Any examples of a child dying instantly from falling off a sofa? Because that is the required scenario here to fit the known facts.
*squeak, squeak, squeak* That's the sound of goalposts on wheels being moved.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 04:48:32 PM
My mother was distracted momentarily when I was on the changing table as a baby and I rolled off and hit my head on the tiled floor below. My head apparently doubled in size. Some might say this accounts for a lot of things. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 04:50:05 PM
*squeak, squeak, squeak* That's the sound of goalposts on wheels being moved.
Not really, think about it. Madeleine falls off sofa when her parents are there. She dies instantly so they cover it up - why? She is injured but not yet dead - why wouldn’t they they call emergency services?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 05, 2019, 04:52:02 PM
Not really, think about it. Madeleine falls off sofa when her parents are there. She dies instantly so they cover it up - why? She is injured but not yet dead - why wouldn’t they they call emergency services?
*keerrrrrrrannnnkkkk* Goalposts fell over (and died) Not what Davros asked. He was veeeery specific, which given my legendary total lack of rigor, made the task easy even for me.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 05, 2019, 04:57:55 PM
Head and body injuries...no names given... Sounds very suspicious... So one is claimed but no name..no official cause of death... I'll have to rule that inadmissible
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 05, 2019, 05:04:46 PM
Head and body injuries...no names given... Sounds very suspicious... So one is claimed but no name..no official cause of death... I'll have to rule that inadmissible
Whatevs. Rule what you like to suit your ego.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 05:05:16 PM
*keerrrrrrrannnnkkkk* Goalposts fell over (and died) Not what Davros asked. He was veeeery specific, which given my legendary total lack of rigor, made the task easy even for me.
To be fair to Davel I think he probably meant died instantly- this isn’t the first time this has been discussed believe me!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 05:07:02 PM
No.. I asked for an example... You haven't given one. You've given an unnamed father claiming his infant fell off the sofa and died from head and body injuries..no names.. No follow up... What was the cause if death... How long did the child take to die... Was the father eventually charged with child abuse...why did the article say no arrests have been made as yet
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 05, 2019, 05:14:44 PM
Only to you... For a cadaver dog to alert to a cadaver a body would have to have been in situ for at least an hour...that's the timeframe being discussed
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 05:20:35 PM
We would also need to consider why, with at least one parent in the apartment when this death allegedly occurred, that the parents considered a cover up over seeking the assitance of the emergency services. That IMO precludes an innocent accident, and leads to a conclusion of foul play. Do you not agree?
I do agree. It’s a bit pointless to speculate but I could suggest a hypothesis of foul play. What if there was evidence of recent abuse, for example? Or perhaps traces of phenergan which parents would have trouble explaining. With a cardiologist and anaesthetist present you could attempt CPR without emergency services. I agree that such scenarios seem far fetched but the dog alerts are more indicative of a death in 5A then there is evidence to support an abduction by a stranger
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 05:22:29 PM
I do agree. It’s a bit pointless to speculate but I could suggest a hypothesis of foul play. What if there was evidence of recent abuse, for example? Or perhaps traces of phenergan which parents would have trouble explaining. With a cardiologist and anaesthetist present you could attempt CPR without emergency services. I agree that such scenarios seem far fetched but the dog alerts are more indicative of a death in 5A then there is evidence to support an abduction by a stranger
Phenergan would be very easy to explain... A touch of hayfever
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 05:26:03 PM
Only to you... For a cadaver dog to alert to a cadaver a body would have to have been in situ for at least an hour...that's the timeframe being discussed
You have a problem with that ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 05:28:13 PM
I do agree. It’s a bit pointless to speculate but I could suggest a hypothesis of foul play. What if there was evidence of recent abuse, for example? Or perhaps traces of phenergan which parents would have trouble explaining. With a cardiologist and anaesthetist present you could attempt CPR without emergency services. I agree that such scenarios seem far fetched but the dog alerts are more indicative of a death in 5A then there is evidence to support an abduction by a stranger
Basically what you seem to be saying is that a far fetched scenario has to be entertained in order to validate the dog alerts when really it should be the other way round IMO.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 05, 2019, 05:28:30 PM
Only to you... For a cadaver dog to alert to a cadaver a body would have to have been in situ for at least an hour...that's the timeframe being discussed
No it doesn't. There no 'in situ' requirement. You have invented that.
How long was Gerry McCann's corpse 'in situ' before E&K alerted to the keyfob?
*%87
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 05:29:23 PM
Only to you... For a cadaver dog to alert to a cadaver a body would have to have been in situ for at least an hour...that's the timeframe being discussed
85 minutes according to Billy’s research.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 05:33:12 PM
How reliable are the alerts of the dogs in an actual search
Are they liable to make false alerts to remnant scents of Blood
Sanitary towells Rotten meat Stale urine Faeces Sweaty socks etc I'm talking about remnant scent when the articles have been removed
Are dogs affected by operator bias Will dogs tire and simply alert
Current science hasn't answered these questions so I don't think they're doing a very good job
When your expert knowledge and research is published in forensic science journals I promise to revisit your posts. In the meantime I’ll believe in current scientific literature on the efficacy of the dogs. Your post fails to explain why the dogs only alert at articles relating to the McCanns unless you seriously believe that Grime was corrupt or had a vested interest in framing the McCanns making his actions criminal. If he wanted to make a case against them why didn’t he make more of the alerts. Instead he stressed the alerts were not proof of the parents involvement w an alleged death, IMO.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 05:47:12 PM
If the significance of the dog alerts is that they alerted and that the alerts tell us nothing more than that the dogs alerted then I would contend that they are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 05:48:31 PM
No they don't... Give me one example from anywhere in the world..
If children do have a fatal head injury from fall then death is caused by subdural haemorrhage which takes about 12 to 24 HRS to kill.... Unless they fall from a reasonable height
If a child is knocked unconscious and does not have a patent airway they will die in five minutes (give or take a bit depending on partial or total airway obstruction). Lack of effective respiration would be followed by cardiac arrest.
Btw - I work in a hospital - I see children who have suffered from falls.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 05:55:08 PM
The parents called the ambulance because the child didn’t die straight away. Any examples of a child dying instantly from falling off a sofa? Because that is the required scenario here to fit the known facts.
What if the parent who was present was in the shower and didn’t hear or witness the fall?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 05, 2019, 05:55:39 PM
If the significance of the dog alerts is that they alerted and that the alerts tell us nothing more than that the dogs alerted then I would contend that they are irrelevant.
Obviously they are not.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 05:59:59 PM
What if the parent who was present was in the shower and didn’t hear or witness the fall?
What if they were? Would you come out of the shower and a) call the emergency services or b) concoct an abduction scenario? You could claim the accident happened after your shower so...
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 06:00:17 PM
But it doesn’t have to be in situ (as in one place) for 85 minutes. The body must be 85 minutes post mortem for a reliable cadaver odour alert. A body could be moved to another spot in a house, for example, and as long as it was 85 minutes after the time of death then a cadaver dog could be expected to make a reliable alert (about 90% - 100% of the time)
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 05, 2019, 06:06:27 PM
Children are injured but not fatally... Have you read the article You still haven't shown a child who has died falling off a sofa.. Then we have the fact when children do have fatal head injuries death is far from instant
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 06:08:16 PM
But it doesn’t have to be in situ (as in one place) for 85 minutes. The body must be 85 minutes post mortem for a reliable cadaver odour alert. A body could be moved to another spot in a house, for example, and as long as it was 85 minutes after the time of death then a cadaver dog could be expected to make a reliable alert (about 90% - 100% of the time)
Yes I know that. For Madeleine to be dead an in the arms of Smithman she must have died no later than 8.30pm.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 06:13:57 PM
No dog alerts will be irrelevant to the Met - they are presently using them in the search for Suzy Lamplugh.
Death dogs help search for Cheltenham-born murdered estate agent Suzy Lamplugh in woodland near Tewkesbury
"The cadaver dogs used in the investigation into missing schoolgirl Madeleine McCann and murdered Newent woman Kate Prout have been spotted at the dig."
"Officers from the Metropolitan Police started searching a field outside Drakes Broughton near Pershore on Wednesday after receiving new evidence."
No dog alerts will be irrelevant to the Met - they are presently using them in the search for Suzy Lamplugh.
"The cadaver dogs used in the investigation into missing schoolgirl Madeleine McCann and murdered Newent woman Kate Prout have been spotted at the dig."
"Officers from the Metropolitan Police started searching a field outside Drakes Broughton near Pershore on Wednesday after receiving new evidence."
If the dogs alert in the Suzy Lamplugh case, and the dig and find an ancient burial site, what relevance will the alerts be to the disappearance of Suzy Lamplugh?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 06:20:27 PM
Not really, think about it. Madeleine falls off sofa when her parents are there. She dies instantly so they cover it up - why? She is injured but not yet dead - why wouldn’t they they call emergency services?
As a hypothesis, IMO, it could be parent not parents who were present. One parent was playing tennis. The other was doing the bedtime routine then jumped in the shower. It's possible for an accident to have occurred whilst the parent is in the shower.
The above hypothesis would explain the inconsistent statements with regards to a friend visiting at bedtime / showertime.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 06:24:02 PM
As a hypothesis, IMO, it could be parent not parents who were present. One parent was playing tennis. The other was doing the bedtime routine then jumped in the shower. It's possible for an accident to have occurred whilst the parent is in the shower.
The above hypothesis would explain the inconsistent statements with regards to a friend visiting at bedtime / showertime.
So what accident are you thinking that would make a parent react by covering up, rather than seeking help straight away? As I said earlier, if you want to be dishonest you can save yourself a lot of bother by claiming the accident happened after you got out of the shower. What’s the worst that could happen to you?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 05, 2019, 06:24:21 PM
If the dogs alert in the Suzy Lamplugh case, and the dig and find an ancient burial site, what relevance will the alerts be to the disappearance of Suzy Lamplugh?
The Met trust the dogs so I'm not surprised this case is still on-going after 12 years with their murder squad detectives!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 06:25:59 PM
As a hypothesis, IMO, it could be parent not parents who were present. One parent was playing tennis. The other was doing the bedtime routine then jumped in the shower. It's possible for an accident to have occurred whilst the parent is in the shower.
The above hypothesis would explain the inconsistent statements with regards to a friend visiting at bedtime / showertime.
it doesnt explain... if maddie ahd an accident why didnt teh mccanns simply call teh emergency services it doesnt explain how the mccanns were able to act normally at dinner it doesnt explain why the mccanns have kept the case in the public eye for 12 years rather than just allowing it to fade away and be forgotten
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 06:26:36 PM
As the dogs were not deployed within 30 minutes or 85 minutes, it is a non-question. That is the point.
If someone knows what, precisely, was behind the sofa at the time the police arrived, it might be of interest.
As we don't, it's not relevant.
They don't need to be. They can alert to the previous presence of cadaver odour even if the corpse has been moved. It's that the corpse must have been in the apartment at least 85 minutes after death. That's what current forensic science research indicates.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 05, 2019, 06:28:04 PM
No dog alerts will be irrelevant to the Met - they are presently using them in the search for Suzy Lamplugh.
Death dogs help search for Cheltenham-born murdered estate agent Suzy Lamplugh in woodland near Tewkesbury
"The cadaver dogs used in the investigation into missing schoolgirl Madeleine McCann and murdered Newent woman Kate Prout have been spotted at the dig."
"Officers from the Metropolitan Police started searching a field outside Drakes Broughton near Pershore on Wednesday after receiving new evidence."
I assume they mean dogs like the ones used in the McCann case. Surely the Met don't need Grime?
I'm not sure who they mean because Eddie is deceased and he alerted in the McCann and Prout cases. It is probably the same dogs the Met used in 2014 in PDL.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 06:36:15 PM
I've invented nothing... There was blood on the key fob
As I've said... You are referring to blood not cadaver.. A cadaver takes at least an hour to develop cadaver odour... That's the time frame
Not quite right. It starts to develop cadaveric VOCs after as little as four minutes. The point is that trained specialist dogs are not able to reliably detect the odour until a body is at least 85 minutes post mortem. From that time up until 120 hours post mortem and beyond the alerts are ever more reliable.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 06:37:55 PM
BRONX — The death of a 4-month-old Parkchester boy has been ruled a homicide more than seven months after his father told police the child hit his head falling off a couch, NYPD Chief of Detectives Robert Boyce said Tuesday.
The city's Medical Examiner ruled that Christopher Rhodes died from blunt force trauma on Aug. 7, 2015, death, said Julie Bolcer, the director of public affairs for the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner.
It was just so obvious.....but you fell for it General
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 06:43:12 PM
BRONX — The death of a 4-month-old Parkchester boy has been ruled a homicide more than seven months after his father told police the child hit his head falling off a couch, NYPD Chief of Detectives Robert Boyce said Tuesday.
The city's Medical Examiner ruled that Christopher Rhodes died from blunt force trauma on Aug. 7, 2015, death, said Julie Bolcer, the director of public affairs for the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner.
It was just so obvious.....but you fell for it General
Has there been a trial and a conviction ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 05, 2019, 06:48:09 PM
BRONX — The death of a 4-month-old Parkchester boy has been ruled a homicide more than seven months after his father told police the child hit his head falling off a couch, NYPD Chief of Detectives Robert Boyce said Tuesday.
The city's Medical Examiner ruled that Christopher Rhodes died from blunt force trauma on Aug. 7, 2015, death, said Julie Bolcer, the director of public affairs for the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner.
It was just so obvious.....but you fell for it General
I didn't, I just couldn't be arsed checking the outcome as I knew that may well have been what actually happened. You did, great.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 05, 2019, 06:48:54 PM
Children are injured but not fatally... Have you read the article You still haven't shown a child who has died falling off a sofa.. Then we have the fact when children do have fatal head injuries death is far from instant
The commentary actually stated that deaths were rare. So they do happen.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 06:51:08 PM
As a hypothesis, IMO, it could be parent not parents who were present. One parent was playing tennis. The other was doing the bedtime routine then jumped in the shower. It's possible for an accident to have occurred whilst the parent is in the shower.
The above hypothesis would explain the inconsistent statements with regards to a friend visiting at bedtime / showertime.
Eddie checked the garden out;
9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
An unlocked patio door. A child who's missed her evening playtime. A Daddy who is over there. Handy furniture for climbing up on to see Daddy and maybe her playmates.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 06:55:19 PM
Look. My original post was addressed to Billy. He and I are having a constructive discussion because he understands my question and my point. You don’t or won’t. For that reason I will continue my chat with him and ignore your further interjections as they are IMO irrelevant.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 06:56:15 PM
9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
An unlocked patio door. A child who's missed her evening playtime. A Daddy who is over there. Handy furniture for climbing up on to see Daddy and maybe her playmates.
Where is Daddy? Do you think Madeleine lay in the garden for 85 plus minutes?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 06:58:07 PM
9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
An unlocked patio door. A child who's missed her evening playtime. A Daddy who is over there. Handy furniture for climbing up on to see Daddy and maybe her playmates.
how on earth would remnant scent last 3 months outside...totally bonkers imo...what does Grime say about this alert
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 05, 2019, 07:01:03 PM
it doesnt explain... if maddie ahd an accident why didnt teh mccanns simply call teh emergency services it doesnt explain how the mccanns were able to act normally at dinner it doesnt explain why the mccanns have kept the case in the public eye for 12 years rather than just allowing it to fade away and be forgotten
As we are discussing a hypothosis the reply could be:
if maddie ahd an accident why didnt teh mccanns simply call teh emergency services This has already been explained- child protection along with the post mortom may show up previous injuries relating to abude of some sort.
it doesnt explain how the mccanns were able to act normally at dinner Oh look at this cool as a cucumber father- lovely man! " Last year, Chris Watts, a 33-year-old Colorado man, murdered his pregnant wife Shannan and two daughters, 4-year-old Bella and 3-year-old Celeste, and buried their bodies in an oil work site. Although Watts initially denied having any involvement with his wife’s and daughters’ deaths, he later confessed to strangling Shannan and suffocating his two daughters, which, prosecutors argued, he did because he was having an affair with another woman and wanted to leave his family. "
Look. My original post was addressed to Billy. He and I are having a constructive discussion because he understands my question and my point. You don’t or won’t. For that reason I will continue my chat with him and ignore your further interjections as they are IMO irrelevant.
If you want to have a private conversation with Billy, kindly use the PM function.
If you post nonsense in public, then your post is fair game.
Simple.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 07:06:14 PM
As we are discussing a hypothosis the reply could be:
if maddie ahd an accident why didnt teh mccanns simply call teh emergency services This has already been explained- child protection along with the post mortom may show up previous injuries relating to abude of some sort.
it doesnt explain how the mccanns were able to act normally at dinner Oh look at this cool as a cucumber father- lovely man! " Last year, Chris Watts, a 33-year-old Colorado man, murdered his pregnant wife Shannan and two daughters, 4-year-old Bella and 3-year-old Celeste, and buried their bodies in an oil work site. Although Watts initially denied having any involvement with his wife’s and daughters’ deaths, he later confessed to strangling Shannan and suffocating his two daughters, which, prosecutors argued, he did because he was having an affair with another woman and wanted to leave his family. "
it doesnt explain why the mccanns have kept the case in the public eye for 12 years rather than just allowing it to fade away and be forgotten.
They = financial gain to begin with? To sell their version of what happened and to slag off everyone who didn't believe them. SELF protection imo!
all in the hypothetical way ofcourse.
Your example of a cool as a cucumber dad is irrelevant unless a) you believe that like him the McCanns are calculating murderers and b) Chris Watts was required to go out to dinner and have a convivial evening with his friends minutes after committing the murders, and appeared completely relaxed and at ease.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 07:08:12 PM
If you want to have a private conversation with Billy, kindly use the PM function.
If you post nonsense in public, then your post is fair game.
Simple.
I am very happy forr others to be the judge of who is posting nonsense here. If anyone else knows what the hell point SIL is trying to make kindly make yourselves known and explain it to me. Don’t all rush at once!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 05, 2019, 07:09:16 PM
Your example of a cool as a cucumber dad is irrelevant unless a) you believe that like him the McCanns are calculating murderers and b) Chris Watts was required to go out to dinner and have a convivial evening with his friends minutes after committing the murders, and appeared completely relaxed and at ease.
Hypothetical reply to hypthotical questions by Davel- If you must interject please do try and read what is typed and not try and associate me with making accusations.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 07:14:22 PM
Hypothetical reply to hypthotical questions by Davel- If you must interject please do try and read what is typed and not try and associate me with making accusations.
Thank you.
You made the association, not me. I was pointing out how irrelevant it was, not accusing you. If you disagree kindly argue your point, Thank you.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 05, 2019, 07:14:57 PM
I am very happy forr others to be the judge of who is posting nonsense here. If anyone else knows what the hell point SIL is trying to make kindly make yourselves known and explain it to me. Don’t all rush at once!
Don't worry about it.
I am well placed to understand when you are posting nonsense.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 07:16:35 PM
As we are discussing a hypothosis the reply could be:
if maddie ahd an accident why didnt teh mccanns simply call teh emergency services This has already been explained- child protection along with the post mortom may show up previous injuries relating to abude of some sort.
it doesnt explain how the mccanns were able to act normally at dinner Oh look at this cool as a cucumber father- lovely man! " Last year, Chris Watts, a 33-year-old Colorado man, murdered his pregnant wife Shannan and two daughters, 4-year-old Bella and 3-year-old Celeste, and buried their bodies in an oil work site. Although Watts initially denied having any involvement with his wife’s and daughters’ deaths, he later confessed to strangling Shannan and suffocating his two daughters, which, prosecutors argued, he did because he was having an affair with another woman and wanted to leave his family. "
just lots more speculation .....you could just say the mccanns might be the two most evil poeple who ever lived and have done all this to satisfy their perverse personalities....in fact I think thats what some sceptics believe...LOL
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 05, 2019, 07:16:49 PM
we can just let those watching this thread...5 guest in total....make their own minds up
I am posting nonsense apparently, I’m sure someone will be along shortly to back up SIL’s point, and point out why my input is nonsense *twiddles thumbs in the meantime*
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 05, 2019, 07:23:10 PM
just lots more speculation .....you could just say the mccanns might be the two most evil poeple who ever lived and have done all this to satisfy their perverse personalities....in fact I think thats what some sceptics believe...LOL
Well Davel, I am sure some people do believe that of the Parents. BUT you did ask for a reply to a hypothetical theory-I gave hypothetical reply so what is the issue? if you don't want a reply don't ask questions-Simple
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 07:24:28 PM
Well Davel, I am sure some people do believe that of the Parents. BUT you did ask for a reply to a hypothetical theory-I gave hypothetical reply so what is the issue? if you don't want a reply don't ask questions-Simple
i expected a reply
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 05, 2019, 07:30:10 PM
It would seem that there were concerns over the training and monitoring of sniffer dogs in general - during Eddie and Keela's time with the police force.
Quote from Skye.
"Police sniffer dogs used to find missing people and dead bodies "urgently" need better training and monitoring, according to an official report.
The Government's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) said specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence. The NPIA reviewed the use of the specialist sniffer dogs two years ago, but its report has only now surfaced following a request by Sky News. "There is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done," the report states. "Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers or record keeping of the success rate they achieve."
The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry". "There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.
The review uses a kidnap investigation to highlight how dogs have tied up valuable police time. The animals detected human remains in old furniture that had been bought from houses where the owner had died. The use of victim recovery, or cadaver dogs, has proved to be controversial in a number of high-profile cases in recent years. A South Yorkshire Police spaniel called Eddie was said to have sniffed out the "scent of death" at the Haut de la Garenne children's home in Jersey and the apartment from which Madeleine McCann disappeared in Portugal. But in both cases nothing more was found and South Yorkshire Police say Eddie is no longer working with them.
Sniffer dogs hindered the police probe into Shannon Matthew's disappearance
Victim recovery dogs from four different police forces were used during searches for kidnapped schoolgirl Shannon Matthews in Dewsbury in West Yorkshire in 2008. The dogs found evidence of dead bodies, but officers later discovered the corpses were nothing to do with her disappearance. "The properties searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died," according to the NPIA report.
"This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."
The Association of Chief Police Officers told Sky News it was consulting individual police forces and hoped to have national training standards for the dogs later this year. "
The "indications" referred to above were proved to be correct alerts to the presence of cadaver odour. Even if training methods require more robust accreditation and better record keeping it doesn't detract from the fact that the trained and specialised dogs are not known to correctly alert to cadaver odour 90-100% of the time in forensic science research tests. Why do you think the FBI use them? They are a highly valuable tool to recover evidence.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 07:44:52 PM
The "indications" referred to above were proved to be correct alerts to the presence of cadaver odour. Even if training methods require more robust accreditation and better record keeping it doesn't detract from the fact that the trained and specialised dogs are not known to correctly alert to cadaver odour 90-100% of the time in forensic science research tests. Why do you think the FBI use them? They are a highly valuable tool to recover evidence.
The dogs are a highly valuable tool in recovering evidence they detect cadaver odour with a very high degree of accuracy ...but proper tests do not seem to have been carried out to test if they respond to remnant scent of other materials
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 07:50:44 PM
So what accident are you thinking that would make a parent react by covering up, rather than seeking help straight away? As I said earlier, if you want to be dishonest you can save yourself a lot of bother by claiming the accident happened after you got out of the shower. What’s the worst that could happen to you?
Why would you want to claim it happened after you got out of the shower?
In my hypothetical scenario the child is dead remember.
As for wanting a motive not to call the emergency services, I'll give you another hypothetical scenario. What if the parent(s) had given a child oral phenergan at bedtime and then jumped in the shower. The child got out of bed and somewhat drowsy fell from the back of a sofa or nearby windowsill. The child is knocked unconscious and the airway is obstructed. Complete airway obstruction leads to asphyxia (hypoxia plus hypercarbia) and cardiac arrest within five to ten minutes. The parent wants to hide the fact that their administration of phenergan may well be seen as a contributory factor at autopsy. In this scenario you would have a motive to cover up the death.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 07:53:43 PM
Yes it’s possible that Madeleine was dead before the McCanns left the apartment, and if that is so, then we can almost certainly rule out an accident. Got any theories as to what might have caused her death?
Accidents could happen at anytime. Would that accident have been witnessed by the toddlers?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 07:57:23 PM
just lots more speculation .....you could just say the mccanns might be the two most evil poeple who ever lived and have done all this to satisfy their perverse personalities....in fact I think thats what some sceptics believe...LOL
Stranger abduction hypothesis in this case is also speculation. Statistically its also far less common than parental involvement. But never mind statistics we have a dog alerting to cadaver odour and another to the likely presence of human blood. These dogs don't alert to nappies, sweaty feet, faeces, urine and rotting food btw.
They could alert to sanitary towels but who was throwing them behind the sofa?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 08:00:50 PM
Stranger abduction hypothesis in this case is also speculation. Statistically its also far less common than parental involvement. But never mind statistics we have a dog alerting to cadaver odour and another to the likely presence of human blood. These dogs don't alert to nappies, sweaty feet, faeces, urine and rotting food btw.
They could alert to sanitary towels but who was throwing them behind the sofa?
If you apply statistics to this particular case I think you will find stranger abduction far far more likely than parental involvemnet
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 05, 2019, 08:02:42 PM
That's impossible without knowing when a body was removed from the apartment.
IMO and for the sake of an hypothesis let's suppose the body was removed 21:45. (Keeping the body in a bag in the cupboard overnight is surely too risky once an alarm has been raised). The latest time for a reliable estimate of a time of death is 20:20. The last independent sighting was somewhere around 17:30. IMO I would suggest time of death for this scenario must be between 17:30 and 20:20. Based on this hypothesis David Payne's evidence may be crucial. We need to explore the inconsistencies of his and Kate McCann's account of his visit to 5A, IMO.
By saying (Keeping the body in a bag in the cupboard overnight is surely too risky once an alarm has been raised) you seem to be blaming the McCanns for putting a body in the bag.
Kate spent a lot of time in her own room in a very distraught state. Could her state have distracted others from having a proper search in the main bedroom?
In my theory it isn't Kate that put the cadaver in the bag, so she is not aware that her distress is preventing a search for a cadaver in that room.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 08:03:30 PM
Your example of a cool as a cucumber dad is irrelevant unless a) you believe that like him the McCanns are calculating murderers and b) Chris Watts was required to go out to dinner and have a convivial evening with his friends minutes after committing the murders, and appeared completely relaxed and at ease.
No in the hypothesis you have to believe that the parents have a vested interest in concealing accidental death and can stay relatively calm and functional despite this awful tragedy and grief. They don't have to be "calculating murderers"
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 08:06:54 PM
By saying (Keeping the body in a bag in the cupboard overnight is surely too risky once an alarm has been raised) you seem to be blaming the McCanns for putting a body in the bag.
Kate spent a lot of time in her own room in a very distraught state. Could her state have distracted others from having a proper search in the main bedroom?
In my theory it isn't Kate that put the cadaver in the bag, so she is not aware that her distress is preventing a search for a cadaver in that room.
In my hypothesis I'm not sure which parent put the body in the bag. It would be interesting to know to what extent the apartment was searched in this hypothetical scenario. The visit by the friend at bedtime / shower time is also of massive importance. I have to go back to the statements they gave to the PJ and LP.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 05, 2019, 08:14:23 PM
9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
An unlocked patio door. A child who's missed her evening playtime. A Daddy who is over there. Handy furniture for climbing up on to see Daddy and maybe her playmates.
I wonder why Russell seemed to have a particular time in mind?
if there had been an accident or something terrible, they’ve got four other Consultants or Senior Doctors within a, you know, you know on the tennis courts or within a short shout https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on July 05, 2019, 08:18:01 PM
By saying (Keeping the body in a bag in the cupboard overnight is surely too risky once an alarm has been raised) you seem to be blaming the McCanns for putting a body in the bag.
Kate spent a lot of time in her own room in a very distraught state. Could her state have distracted others from having a proper search in the main bedroom?
In my theory it isn't Kate that put the cadaver in the bag, so she is not aware that her distress is preventing a search for a cadaver in that room.
I thought she had Fiona for company most of the time.
Good ploy to keep potential searchers away though
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 05, 2019, 08:19:38 PM
I wonder why Russell seemed to have a particular time in mind?
if there had been an accident or something terrible, they’ve got four other Consultants or Senior Doctors within a, you know, you know on the tennis courts or within a short shout https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
I don't know what to make of this: this was at the alert from Kate is is talking about" We went over to Gerry and Kate’s apartment I didn’t go in to the apartment. I can recall it would have been a similar layout to ours, although the furniture and décor was different to ours as the apartments are leased. I didn’t go into the bedroom on this occasion, but I’d imagine that there are wardrobes in there as there are in ours. When I had been into the apartment on previous occasions it had been dark."
Was he claiming he did go into the childrens bedroom when it was dark on previous occasions?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 08:37:04 PM
Just read DPs statement in the rogatory interview with LP paying special attention to the visit to apartment 5A. It adds weight to the hypothesis that by the time of the visit an accident had already happened IMO.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 08:37:56 PM
Why would you want to claim it happened after you got out of the shower?
In my hypothetical scenario the child is dead remember.
As for wanting a motive not to call the emergency services, I'll give you another hypothetical scenario. What if the parent(s) had given a child oral phenergan at bedtime and then jumped in the shower. The child got out of bed and somewhat drowsy fell from the back of a sofa or nearby windowsill. The child is knocked unconscious and the airway is obstructed. Complete airway obstruction leads to asphyxia (hypoxia plus hypercarbia) and cardiac arrest within five to ten minutes. The parent wants to hide the fact that their administration of phenergan may well be seen as a contributory factor at autopsy. In this scenario you would have a motive to cover up the death.
Why would you want to claim it happened after you got out of the shower? To demonstrate that you hadn’t left your kids unattended for a few minutes. Is it illegal to give your kids oral phenergan?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 08:40:20 PM
I wonder why Russell seemed to have a particular time in mind?
if there had been an accident or something terrible, they’ve got four other Consultants or Senior Doctors within a, you know, you know on the tennis courts or within a short shout https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
The time he had in mind fits my hypothesis about an accident around bedtime.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 08:40:23 PM
No in the hypothesis you have to believe that the parents have a vested interest in concealing accidental death and can stay relatively calm and functional despite this awful tragedy and grief. They don't have to be "calculating murderers"
So why cite an example of a cold calculating murderer to make the point? It’s irrelevant is it not?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2019, 08:43:31 PM
Who said he was? I was answering your question "..... please point where the fault is in my logic".
As I didn't mention Sutton and he was not involved in the case he's of little relevance. I find some of his comments in the case unprofessional and ill informed... Perhaps that's because he's annoyed he wasn't asked to lead the case
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 08:44:37 PM
The time he had in mind fits my hypothesis about an accident around bedtime.
An accident round bedtime means that the theory of concern about being prosecuted for neglect can be discounted. So had they decided to report the alleged accident what do you think they would have been charged with?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 08:59:16 PM
So why cite an example of a cold calculating murderer to make the point? It’s irrelevant is it not?
Absolutely someone else cited cold calculating murderers not me. I was saying they dyhave to be that, but they may still want to hide an accidental death from the emergency services, IMO.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 05, 2019, 09:06:42 PM
Absolutely someone else cited cold calculating murderers not me. I was saying they'd have to be that, but they may still want to hide an accidental death from the emergency services, IMO.
Sounds a bit hypothetical in the end. I'm surprised what is being said in the thread. I might have TO BACKTRACK. This conversation starts right back at page 52. I'm wondering if John can pull the private discussion between VS and Billy into a separate thread.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 09:07:50 PM
An accident round bedtime means that the theory of concern about being prosecuted for neglect can be discounted. So had they decided to report the alleged accident what do you think they would have been charged with?
I told you two scenarios. IMO parents may want to hide the fact they gave their children POMs at bedtime that had sedative side effects. Or they may want to conceal signs of abuse (hypothetically speaking of course)
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 09:09:56 PM
I told you two scenarios. IMO parents may want to hide the fact they gave their children POMs at bedtime that had sedative side effects. Or they may want to conceal signs of abuse (hypothetically speaking of course)
Is it illegal to give your kids POMs? By abuse are you referring to sexual abuse, hypothetically speaking?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 09:10:27 PM
Absolutely someone else cited cold calculating murderers not me. I was saying they dyhave to be that, but they may still want to hide an accidental death from the emergency services, IMO.
it was VS who mentioned calculating murderers, ^*&&
"Your example of a cool as a cucumber dad is irrelevant unless a) you believe that like him the McCanns are calculating murderers and b) Chris Watts was required to go out to dinner and have a convivial evening with his friends minutes after committing the murders, and appeared completely relaxed and at ease." (read previous page)
It is hilarious when they argue with their own words which the claim others said. It happens quite often.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 05, 2019, 09:14:48 PM
In the hypothetical scenario about a parent wanting to conceal abuse it could be either sexual or physical abuse IMO.
Aren't you a bit behind the times. These things have been hashed to death already. And no proof of any such thing.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 09:29:45 PM
Sorry for going “off topic”. The alerts are indicative that a corpse was in 5A. I was then asked to speculate over the time of death and possible reasons for parents to conceal an accidental death.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 09:31:51 PM
Aren't you a bit behind the times. These things have been hashed to death already. And no proof of any such thing.
There’s no proof of abduction either. It is my firm belief that the alerts are not false positives.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 05, 2019, 09:52:30 PM
I was thinking is this discussion still on topic? It could have been, but I had noted it had drifted off course. I just couldn't face reading 90 odd posts to sort it out.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 05, 2019, 09:57:36 PM
I was thinking is this discussion still on topic? It could have been, but I had noted it had drifted off course. I just couldn't face reading 90 odd posts to sort it out.
You are right. It drifted off course a page or two back.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 10:13:19 PM
it was VS who mentioned calculating murderers, ^*&&
"Your example of a cool as a cucumber dad is irrelevant unless a) you believe that like him the McCanns are calculating murderers and b) Chris Watts was required to go out to dinner and have a convivial evening with his friends minutes after committing the murders, and appeared completely relaxed and at ease." (read previous page)
It is hilarious when they argue with their own words which the claim others said. It happens quite often.
No, it was you who brought calculating murderers into the equation with your wholly irrelevant cite.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 10:18:40 PM
There’s no proof of abduction either. It is my firm belief that the alerts are not false positives.
Don’t you see that you are having to invent all sorts of wild and improbable scenarios in order to fit the dog alerts, anything rather than consider the possibility that the alerts were red herrings? Surely the dog alerts should be used to corroborate other evidence rather than trying to hammer the other evidence into some sort of shape around the dog alerts?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 05, 2019, 10:21:29 PM
The time he had in mind fits my hypothesis about an accident around bedtime.
It's always puzzled me why he mentioned that particular time.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 10:28:01 PM
So it seems we are moving towards death prior to the McCanns leaving for dinner on the night of the 3rd. So for this to be the case we must accept that the McCanns were ablee to appear completely untroubled by this event, to be happy for others to check on their apartment where they knew a dead child lay. Who else knew about this situation? In other words who of their friends was covering up for them and why would they do so if Madeleine had had an accident?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 05, 2019, 10:31:48 PM
Don’t you see that you are having to invent all sorts of wild and improbable scenarios in order to fit the dog alerts, anything rather than consider the possibility that the alerts were red herrings? Surely the dog alerts should be used to corroborate other evidence rather than trying to hammer the other evidence into some sort of shape around the dog alerts?
Not all. It’s wild and improbable to believe these specialised dogs which are tested and accredited suddenly start making false alerts and only in places and objects directly related to one family. Once maybe... but eleven times? Also we know that human cellular material was found where Keela alerted.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 05, 2019, 10:35:53 PM
So it seems we are moving towards death prior to the McCanns leaving for dinner on the night of the 3rd. So for this to be the case we must accept that the McCanns were ablee to appear completely untroubled by this event, to be happy for others to check on their apartment where they knew a dead child lay. Who else knew about this situation? In other words who of their friends was covering up for them and why would they do so if Madeleine had had an accident?
Weren’t they able to act completely untroubled after their daughter’s disappearance? Isn’t that why people found them so strange ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 10:39:26 PM
So it seems we are moving towards death prior to the McCanns leaving for dinner on the night of the 3rd. So for this to be the case we must accept that the McCanns were ablee to appear completely untroubled by this event, to be happy for others to check on their apartment where they knew a dead child lay. Who else knew about this situation? In other words who of their friends was covering up for them and why would they do so if Madeleine had had an accident?
Read DP's rogatory interview with regards to what he says about the bedtime visit. And why doesn't he remember KM had taken a shower? Surely someone dressed in a towel is something you would actually remember - but it's his whole description of the visit that rings alarm bells to me. The dog alerts IMO would indicate a death between 17:30 and 20:20 given what forensic science tells us about dog reliability and human decomposition. So an accident around bedtime would fit, yes.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 05, 2019, 10:50:41 PM
no, they appeared so very troubled that many remarked upon it in their statements.
Sometimes people can remain calm when they need to in the face of incredible stress or grief. There are many psychological studies about it but it is also a tenet of the fight or flight response, caused by the sympathetic nervous system and a release of adrenaline and noradrenaline.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 05, 2019, 10:56:51 PM
Sometimes people can remain calm when they need to in the face of incredible stress or grief. There are many psychological studies about it but it is also a tenet of the fight or flight response, caused by the sympathetic nervous system and a release of adrenaline and noradrenaline.
I remember sitting in my mates kitchen before walking off to school one morning. His mum came in and said, in a round about fashion 'Karl, your nanna died last night'. Karl started laughing. So I did too. So yeh, there's something in that.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 10:58:50 PM
But in public they were composed and even, at times, laughed. This was while believing that their daughter may have been taken by paedophiles.
Now tell me that they didn’t have the ability to act normally if the circumstances demanded it ?
We are talking minutes after discovering their daughter dead righht? Not many days later when they may have allowed themselves a fleeting smile or laugh. You appear to be telling me that the McCanns had the ability to act perfectly normal despite the immediate shock and distress of having caused their own child’s death. I wonder how you came to this conclusion.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 11:00:12 PM
I remember sitting in my mates kitchen before walking off to school one morning. His mum came in and said, in a round about fashion 'Karl, your nanna died last night'. Karl started laughing. So I did too. So yeh, there's something in that.
How long did the merriment last?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 05, 2019, 11:02:35 PM
We are talking minutes after discovering their daughter dead righht? Not many days later when they may have allowed themselves a fleeting smile or laugh. You appear to be telling me that the McCanns had the ability to act perfectly normal despite the immediate shock and distress of having caused their own child’s death. I wonder how you came to this conclusion.
From video footage.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 05, 2019, 11:05:30 PM
Not long. His mum kicked off, so I made a swift exit as I remember. Karl was obviously in some sort of shock, not knowing how to process the information, or not knowing the correct reaction. He should have, we were both teachers and he was 37 at the time.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 05, 2019, 11:06:09 PM
Not long. His mum kicked off, so I made a swift exit as I remember. Karl was obviously in some sort of shock, not knowing how to process the information, or not knowing the correct reaction. He should have, we were both teachers and he was 37 at the time.
The death of a grandparent should not come as a massive shock or trauma when you are 37, certainly not comparable to the death of your own child.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 05, 2019, 11:14:43 PM
Nah, we were about 12. At that age neither of us had experienced death. He was a weird kid though.
Paul McCartney laughed hysterically when he was told of his mum’s death. I remember reading this in Hunter Davies book about the Beatles as a kid and being quite shocked. But now I realise it’s quite a normal reaction, but I think maybe you’d come across as quite manic and distressed to any onlooker despite the laughter.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 05, 2019, 11:35:49 PM
So it seems we are moving towards death prior to the McCanns leaving for dinner on the night of the 3rd. So for this to be the case we must accept that the McCanns were ablee to appear completely untroubled by this event, to be happy for others to check on their apartment where they knew a dead child lay. Who else knew about this situation? In other words who of their friends was covering up for them and why would they do so if Madeleine had had an accident?
I've just been watching an old case where this happened.
Man went to his birthday party, then nipped off home, strangled his wife, and strung her up from the banisters to fake suicide, before going back to his birthday party and having a jolly, leaving his two infants alone in his house with the body.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 05, 2019, 11:41:22 PM
What if they were? Would you come out of the shower and a) call the emergency services or b) concoct an abduction scenario? You could claim the accident happened after your shower so...
So if death happened and they didn't call help, that would suggest they were covering up something that was not an accident? Do you agree?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 04:08:06 AM
Head and body injuries...no names given... Sounds very suspicious... So one is claimed but no name..no official cause of death... I'll have to rule that inadmissible
Falls are the most common cause of accidental home injury deaths. More common in the elderly but also one of the leading causes of accidental home injury deaths in children
Incidentally look at the picture they choose!! Uncanny. https://www.asecurelife.com/home-accident-statistics/ (https://www.asecurelife.com/home-accident-statistics/)
You have a habit of inventing facts that do not stand up to scrutiny, then ignore uncomfortable truths such as the chances of Eddie and Keela suddenly making 11 false alerts that are all related to one family are pretty much as near to zero as you can get.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 07:20:45 AM
I've just been watching an old case where this happened.
Man went to his birthday party, then nipped off home, strangled his wife, and strung her up from the banisters to fake suicide, before going back to his birthday party and having a jolly, leaving his two infants alone in his house with the body.
That was premeditated murder. Is that what happened here in your view?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 07:23:44 AM
So if death happened and they didn't call help, that would suggest they were covering up something that was not an accident? Do you agree?
Yes. We must dispense with the notion of an accident once and for all and credit the McCanns with something far more sinister, if you want to make them the perpetrators. I wonder if other sceptics will agree though? Some seem reluctant to consider homicide. Even the PJ at the time never explored that possibility it seems.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 07:26:47 AM
Falls are the most common cause of accidental home injury deaths. More common in the elderly but also one of the leading causes of accidental home injury deaths in children
Incidentally look at the picture they choose!! Uncanny. https://www.asecurelife.com/home-accident-statistics/ (https://www.asecurelife.com/home-accident-statistics/)
You have a habit of inventing facts that do not stand up to scrutiny, then ignore uncomfortable truths such as the chances of Eddie and Keela suddenly making 11 false alerts that are all related to one family are pretty much as near to zero as you can get.
This fall would need to be near instantaneous to fit with any cover up theory, yet it seems extremely unlikely that a fall off a sofa would result in instant death.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 06, 2019, 07:37:17 AM
Because in tests with cadaver dogs we know that although cadaveric VOCs might start to be produced four minutes after death it takes 85 minutes before a trained and specialised dog can successfully detect the odour with a very high degree of accuracy. Therefore a corpse would have had to have been in the apartment for 85 minutes or more for there to be enough odour for Eddie to alert as he did
To be fair, for cross contamination, a corpse would need have been somewhere for 85 minutes before being “handled” and contaminated articles returned to 5a prior to the dog search.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 06, 2019, 07:51:25 AM
Don’t you see that you are having to invent all sorts of wild and improbable scenarios in order to fit the dog alerts, anything rather than consider the possibility that the alerts were red herrings? Surely the dog alerts should be used to corroborate other evidence rather than trying to hammer the other evidence into some sort of shape around the dog alerts?
I think Billy's scenario's are much less wild and improbable than those invented by the abduction supporters. He has invented no watchers, no strange ideas about bloodlines and no ridiculous suggestions about a cadaver dog alerting to anything and everything which doesn't emit the smell he was trained to detect.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 07:58:01 AM
I think Billy's scenario's are much less wild and improbable than those invented by the abduction supporters. He has invented no watchers, no strange ideas about bloodlines and no ridiculous suggestions about a cadaver dog alerting to anything and everything which doesn't emit the smell he was trained to detect.
That’s your belief. With the exception of the bloodlines thing which is bonkers IMO, there is nothing wild or improbable about the apartment and its inhabitants being monitored by persons with criminal intent, it happens all the time. And cadaver dogs DO alert to substances which are not cadavers and which did not necessarily come out of a cadaver, so that’s not nonsense either.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 08:01:30 AM
To be fair, for cross contamination, a corpse would need have been somewhere for 85 minutes before being “handled” and contaminated articles returned to 5a prior to the dog search.
What I'm seeing here is when one invented scenario that has been held by many for 12 years and is still held by the previous lead investigator is shown not to fit the action is to invent another one. So your explanation relies on Cross contamination.
So the perp... Having handled a corpse... Returns to 5a and contaminates an area behind the sofa. The perp manages not to touch the door handle and everything else. IMO Cross contamination would affect multiple accessible areas... I think you need to invent another scenario
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 06, 2019, 08:11:18 AM
That’s your belief. With the exception of the bloodlines thing which is bonkers IMO, there is nothing wild or improbable about the apartment and its inhabitants being monitored by persons with criminal intent, it happens all the time. And cadaver dogs DO alert to substances which are not cadavers and which did not necessarily come out of a cadaver, so that’s not nonsense either.
Whatever has happened in other cases theres absolutely no evidence that anyone was watching 5A or that Eddie ever alerted to smells he wasn't trained to alert to.
Now tell me what Billy has invented that is wild and improbable.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2019, 08:21:29 AM
Falls are the most common cause of accidental home injury deaths. More common in the elderly but also one of the leading causes of accidental home injury deaths in children
Incidentally look at the picture they choose!! Uncanny. https://www.asecurelife.com/home-accident-statistics/ (https://www.asecurelife.com/home-accident-statistics/)
You have a habit of inventing facts that do not stand up to scrutiny, then ignore uncomfortable truths such as the chances of Eddie and Keela suddenly making 11 false alerts that are all related to one family are pretty much as near to zero as you can get.
Not really uncanny. Didn't you see the blind cord?
Snip Since 1999, 28 children in the UK have died after becoming tangled in blind cords.
Whatever has happened in other cases theres absolutely no evidence that anyone was watching 5A or that Eddie ever alerted to smells he wasn't trained to alert to.
Now tell me what Billy has invented that is wild and improbable.
Theres no real evidence what Eddie alerted to... All we know from his handler is that it's possibly or suggestive of cadaver odour... With no figures to say how likely it is... That tells us nothing imo Rex, Stockham realised this needed to be addressed with proper scientific tests but there is nothing to confirm this has been carried out. You may remember I have said fir a long time more, scientific tests were needed yet your opinion was the dogs couldn't be tested scientifically.... My judgement had been shown to be correct... Yours had shown to be wrong
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 08:32:00 AM
Whatever has happened in other cases theres absolutely no evidence that anyone was watching 5A or that Eddie ever alerted to smells he wasn't trained to alert to.
Now tell me what Billy has invented that is wild and improbable.
Children do not die by falling off sofas... The General found one case that he didn't realise was case and an obvious case if child abuse. Death due to head injuries take many hours to happen .
There are many cases of stranger abduction... None if a child falling off a sofa and dying... Doesn't that tell you something
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 08:36:52 AM
I think Billy's scenario's are much less wild and improbable than those invented by the abduction supporters. He has invented no watchers, no strange ideas about bloodlines and no ridiculous suggestions about a cadaver dog alerting to anything and everything which doesn't emit the smell he was trained to detect.
Eddie alerting odours he's trained to... What did he alert to in Jersey... Nothing confirmed... Grime now says a cadaver dog will not react to teeth in those circumstances
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 06, 2019, 08:39:32 AM
There is no proof in Amaral's claim that Madeleine heard her Dad talking in the road outside, would she have been able to hear him, considering they were probably keeping their voices down as Jez was trying to get his baby to sleep.
There has been no reconstruction as to how Madeleine if she had climbed on the sofa would have fallen off it. If the sofa was pushed back and Madeleine climbed on it to look out of the window, she would have leaned over the back to reach the window, if she had fallen she would have gone down over the back of it and I can't see that as being a sudden fall more like a slither down the back. IMO
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 08:40:38 AM
Whatever has happened in other cases theres absolutely no evidence that anyone was watching 5A or that Eddie ever alerted to smells he wasn't trained to alert to.
Now tell me what Billy has invented that is wild and improbable.
Parent drugs children with prescription medicine, goes for a shower, comes out and finds child dying on the floor, does not call for medical assistance (too risky apparently giving your children phenargrn is illegal?) tries to save child’s life, fails, waits for hubbie to come, he says oh dear we will have to fake an abduction that’s far less risky than simply owning up to the actual sequence of events, now have this glass of wine and let’s go out and enjoy dinner with our mates, I’ve got this covered, just remember when you do the 10pm check to open the window and scream loudly “they’ve taken her”, then I will jog over close the window, oh and by then I will have already carried the body uncovered through town to dump in a bin, doesn’t matter if I’m seen, no one will suspect a thing.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2019, 08:41:00 AM
I think Billy's scenario's are much less wild and improbable than those invented by the abduction supporters. He has invented no watchers, no strange ideas about bloodlines and no ridiculous suggestions about a cadaver dog alerting to anything and everything which doesn't emit the smell he was trained to detect.
Nothing Billy says is supported by witness statements unlike the watchers seen outside the McCann apartment in the run up to Madeleine's disappearance. None of whom have been traced apart from supposition, unless you know better?
Snip The former senior investigating officer Lenny Harper said the dog, Eddie, gave officers enough evidence to widen their abuse investigation at the home. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-17337414
... and we know precisely how that turned out. https://www.gov.je/sitecollectiondocuments/government%20and%20administration/r%20wiltshireoperationhavenredacted%2020081112%20jn.pdf
Not all. It’s wild and improbable to believe these specialised dogs which are tested and accredited suddenly start making false alerts and only in places and objects directly related to one family. Once maybe... but eleven times? Also we know that human cellular material was found where Keela alerted.
If the dogs were properly tested you would have a point...they are not properly tested. Where are the tests to show that the cadaver dog does not alert to the pasr presence of all the things i have mentioned...they dont seem to exist..
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 08:43:08 AM
why would the mccanns have a problem with anti histamines use if it was indeed true. Children suffer mild allergies....it would be easy to justify their use
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 06, 2019, 08:45:03 AM
Weren’t they able to act completely untroubled after their daughter’s disappearance? Isn’t that why people found them so strange ?
They didn't react completely untroubled after their daughters disappearance, have you read the statements of the people who were around them?
If you are talking about the appeal to the abductor, the Police told them not to show emotion, just as they had told Sara Payne. You could still hear it in Kate's voice though and afterwards she was crying. The first interview in Portugal they had to stop filming many times as the McCann's broke down crying. The award Gerry was given after Madeleine's disappearance when he had to give a speech he broke down crying. You are just going by selected interviews or selected photo's for the press. It's ridiculous that people can come to a conclusion by what they see on tv or on the internet. IMO
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 08:47:05 AM
I've just been watching an old case where this happened.
Man went to his birthday party, then nipped off home, strangled his wife, and strung her up from the banisters to fake suicide, before going back to his birthday party and having a jolly, leaving his two infants alone in his house with the body.
you are describing one man with an obvious personality disorder...who probably showed signs of this disorder previously. What we re being asked to accept is taht the mccanns had personality disorders which had not been expressed previously or since...and their group of friends covered up several serios crimes which would make them criminally involved too. do you think the tapas would donate their libel win to a fund they knew to be fraudulent
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2019, 08:55:08 AM
Of the known court cases involving dog handlers testimony is there a single one which is reliant on the use of a single dog and a single handler?
Of the cases I have read about more than one dog has alerted in the same area.
Can anyone provide a cite where only a single animal was relied upon apart from in Praia da Luz? or Haute de la Garenne.
I don't think it happens.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 08:58:37 AM
Falls are the most common cause of accidental home injury deaths. More common in the elderly but also one of the leading causes of accidental home injury deaths in children
Incidentally look at the picture they choose!! Uncanny. https://www.asecurelife.com/home-accident-statistics/ (https://www.asecurelife.com/home-accident-statistics/)
You have a habit of inventing facts that do not stand up to scrutiny, then ignore uncomfortable truths such as the chances of Eddie and Keela suddenly making 11 false alerts that are all related to one family are pretty much as near to zero as you can get.
the picture you chose shows a child about to pass through what looks like a first floor window..
children dont die from falling off sofas...find me one example anywhere in the world
I dont rate the alerts for reasons alraedy explained
I rate the dogs as superb tools for finding evidence...the problems arise when theres no evidence to collect...thats when coconuts ...baby teeth and animal bone fragments get discovered..
I dont have to make anything up...ipso loquor facto........or something like taht
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 06, 2019, 09:01:32 AM
I've just been watching an old case where this happened.
Man went to his birthday party, then nipped off home, strangled his wife, and strung her up from the banisters to fake suicide, before going back to his birthday party and having a jolly, leaving his two infants alone in his house with the body.
You can't compare the two. This man WANTED his wife dead, he was probably congratulating himself on pulling off what he thought was the perfect murder. No wonder he was having a jolly.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 09:10:02 AM
I've just been watching an old case where this happened.
Man went to his birthday party, then nipped off home, strangled his wife, and strung her up from the banisters to fake suicide, before going back to his birthday party and having a jolly, leaving his two infants alone in his house with the body.
If you are going to quote cases could you post more detail so they can be checked out otherwise your claims have little credibility
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 06, 2019, 09:11:18 AM
Parent drugs children with prescription medicine, goes for a shower, comes out and finds child dying on the floor, does not call for medical assistance (too risky apparently giving your children phenargrn is illegal?) tries to save child’s life, fails, waits for hubbie to come, he says oh dear we will have to fake an abduction that’s far less risky than simply owning up to the actual sequence of events, now have this glass of wine and let’s go out and enjoy dinner with our mates, I’ve got this covered, just remember when you do the 10pm check to open the window and scream loudly “they’ve taken her”, then I will jog over close the window, oh and by then I will have already carried the body uncovered through town to dump in a bin, doesn’t matter if I’m seen, no one will suspect a thing.
Did Billy invent the scenario you describe or did you invent it?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2019, 09:19:04 AM
If Eddie and Keela's alerts in Praia da Luz had any credibility or validity in 2007 we would not be having this present conversation about whether or not they had any meaning.
If the Judicial Police had found evidence which substantiated them ... Kate and Gerry would have been charged and a warrant issued for their arrest ... and this discussion would not be taking place on the internet, it would have been heard in a court of law.
That it didn't confirms that the alerts are meaningless.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 09:21:42 AM
If Eddie and Keela's alerts in Praia da Luz had any credibility or validity in 2007 we would not be having this present conversation about whether or not they had any meaning.
If the Judicial Police had found evidence which substantiated them ... Kate and Gerry would have been charged and a warrant issued for their arrest ... and this discussion would not be taking place on the internet, it would have been heard in a court of law.
That it didn't confirms that the alerts are meaningless.
not only that.. If the Pj had managed to arrest and charge the mccanns...and the dna and the dog alerts had been deemd admissable..
i think the mccanns would have been found guilty
no wonder kate was worried
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 06, 2019, 09:24:32 AM
Nothing Billy says is supported by witness statements unlike the watchers seen outside the McCann apartment in the run up to Madeleine's disappearance. None of whom have been traced apart from supposition, unless you know better?
Snip The former senior investigating officer Lenny Harper said the dog, Eddie, gave officers enough evidence to widen their abuse investigation at the home. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-17337414
... and we know precisely how that turned out. https://www.gov.je/sitecollectiondocuments/government%20and%20administration/r%20wiltshireoperationhavenredacted%2020081112%20jn.pdf
Billy's choice of a time for the incident is supported by Russell's statement. His mention of POM's is supported by Gerry's statement.The fact that the children were left unsupervised is supported by Kate's statement. He has provided evidence of how long it takes for cadaver scent to develop.
People reported watchers who were not proved to be watching anything, just as people reported sightings of Madeleine which weren't her. There's no evidence whatsoever that anyone was watching anything on the evening of 3rd May.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2019, 09:30:04 AM
not only that.. If the Pj had managed to arrest and charge the mccanns...and the dna and the dog alerts had been deemd admissable..
i think the mccanns would have been found guilty
no wonder kate was worried
Kate was experiencing all this first hand and must have been terrified. All done with absolutely no confirmation that Madeleine wasn't alive and needing rescue. In my opinion the knowledge that Madeleine had no chance if she and Gerry were fitted up for something they did not do must have strengthened her resolve.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2019, 09:40:31 AM
Billy's choice of a time for the incident is supported by Russell's statement. His mention of POM's is supported by Gerry's statement.The fact that the children were left unsupervised is supported by Kate's statement. He has provided evidence of how long it takes for cadaver scent to develop.
People reported watchers who were not proved to be watching anything, just as people reported sightings of Madeleine which weren't her. There's no evidence whatsoever that anyone was warching anything on the evening of 3rd May.
These POM's are the things are they not? VSWWABCWIO.
Some sightings which may have been relevant and which may even have been Madeleine were not known about until 2010 when Paiva revealed at the libel trial that he had them on file. So we will never really know because no-one bothered to check at the time.
Snip Kate and Gerry McCann, both 41, learnt of the existence of the dossier of new information, including tips offs, license plate numbers and even photographs of children who could be their daughter, during a court hearing in Lisbon that ended Wednesday. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7215353/Portuguese-police-ignored-Madeleine-McCann-leads.html
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 06, 2019, 09:45:18 AM
VSWWABCWIO - What is that? Didn't come close to anything on Google.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 06, 2019, 10:04:10 AM
These POM's are the things are they not? VSWWABCWIO.
Some sightings which may have been relevant and which may even have been Madeleine were not known about until 2010 when Paiva revealed at the libel trial that he had them on file. So we will never really know because no-one bothered to check at the time.
Snip Kate and Gerry McCann, both 41, learnt of the existence of the dossier of new information, including tips offs, license plate numbers and even photographs of children who could be their daughter, during a court hearing in Lisbon that ended Wednesday. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7215353/Portuguese-police-ignored-Madeleine-McCann-leads.html
As you haven't commented, I assume you cannot deny that some witness statements add credibilty to Billy's scenario.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2019, 10:04:33 AM
VSWWABCWIO - What is that? Didn't come close to anything on Google.
Quite simply I am illustrating the current trend for abbreviation and 'text speech' which has invaded the forum of late and simply said ... "very soon we will all be communicating with initials only".
I believe it to be a very lazy means of communication and jargon which is open to misunderstanding and misinterpretation.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2019, 10:07:37 AM
Quite simply I am illustrating the current trend for abbreviation and 'text speech' which has invaded the forum of late and simply said ... "very soon we will all be communicating with initials only".
I believe it to be a very lazy means of communication and jargon which is open to misunderstanding and misinterpretation.
I absolutely agree. I don't know what anyone is talking about most of the time these days.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 06, 2019, 10:11:12 AM
The dogs are a highly valuable tool in recovering evidence they detect cadaver odour with a very high degree of accuracy ...but proper tests do not seem to have been carried out to test if they respond to remnant scent of other materials
That would be a never ending list wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 10:18:33 AM
We are talking minutes after discovering their daughter dead righht? Not many days later when they may have allowed themselves a fleeting smile or laugh. You appear to be telling me that the McCanns had the ability to act perfectly normal despite the immediate shock and distress of having caused their own child’s death. I wonder how you came to this conclusion.
Well we would be talking two hours plus... but the bodies chemical response to extreme situations happens almost immediately. It would certainly constitute abnormal behaviour in this case but it does happen occasionally that people who have just witnessed or committed the most shocking acts can act normally around others.
It's not as far fetched as believing highly trained specialist dogs that are proven by forensic science to be right 90-100% of the time suddenly and inexplicably start making mistakes.... and their mistakes are only towards items relating to one family.
We also know KM took a shower around the kids bedtime. We know it's implied in her first interview that she had a bath (but later when GM was there). We know that for some reason DP can't remember that KM was dressed only in a towel and went to bizarre lengths to describe how everything was normal, no-one was in trouble, the children were very happy, "sort of standing" and "at peace". We know that falling is the number one cause of accidental home injury death.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2019, 10:22:34 AM
Well we would be talking two hours plus... but the bodies chemical response to extreme situations happens almost immediately. It would certainly constitute abnormal behaviour in this case but it does happen occasionally that people who have just witnessed or committed the most shocking acts can act normally around others.
It's not as far fetched as believing highly trained specialist dogs that are proven by forensic science to be right 90-100% of the time suddenly and inexplicably start making mistakes.... and their mistakes are only towards items relating to one family.
We also know KM took a shower around the kids bedtime. We know it's implied in her first interview that she had a bath (but later when GM was there). We know that for some reason DP can't remember that KM was dressed only in a towel and went to bizarre lengths to describe how everything was normal, no-one was in trouble, the children were very happy, "sort of standing" and "at peace". We know that falling is the number one cause of accidental home injury death.
Supposition and Speculation.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 06, 2019, 10:43:52 AM
Well we would be talking two hours plus... but the bodies chemical response to extreme situations happens almost immediately. It would certainly constitute abnormal behaviour in this case but it does happen occasionally that people who have just witnessed or committed the most shocking acts can act normally around others.
It's not as far fetched as believing highly trained specialist dogs that are proven by forensic science to be right 90-100% of the time suddenly and inexplicably start making mistakes.... and their mistakes are only towards items relating to one family.
We also know KM took a shower around the kids bedtime. We know it's implied in her first interview that she had a bath (but later when GM was there). We know that for some reason DP can't remember that KM was dressed only in a towel and went to bizarre lengths to describe how everything was normal, no-one was in trouble, the children were very happy, "sort of standing" and "at peace". We know that falling is the number one cause of accidental home injury death.
Were they 'sort of standing' and 'at peace' I thought they were looking at story books whilst Kate had a quick shower.
As for David Payne, he probably looked away from Kate, it bit embarrassed probably.
I don't for one moment believe that the McCann's went to dinner to laugh and joke after an accident that killed Madeleine. Jez said Gerry was normal talking normally. The reaction to finding Madeleine was missing and not found was how they behaved correctly, devastated, shocked, totally inconsolable. IMO
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2019, 10:48:37 AM
Well we would be talking two hours plus... but the bodies chemical response to extreme situations happens almost immediately. It would certainly constitute abnormal behaviour in this case but it does happen occasionally that people who have just witnessed or committed the most shocking acts can act normally around others.
It's not as far fetched as believing highly trained specialist dogs that are proven by forensic science to be right 90-100% of the time suddenly and inexplicably start making mistakes.... and their mistakes are only towards items relating to one family.
We also know KM took a shower around the kids bedtime. We know it's implied in her first interview that she had a bath (but later when GM was there). We know that for some reason DP can't remember that KM was dressed only in a towel and went to bizarre lengths to describe how everything was normal, no-one was in trouble, the children were very happy, "sort of standing" and "at peace". We know that falling is the number one cause of accidental home injury death.
So giving as full a statement to the police as possible counts as going to "bizarre lengths". I think that is a really weird opinion to hold.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 06, 2019, 10:51:56 AM
But based on evidence, unlike supposition and speculation about watchers, bloodlines, timelines, cadaver dog alerts, cadaver dog handlers and what people 'must' have been thinking/feeling.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 11:01:38 AM
Dog alerts according to forensic science reports are accurate 90-100% of the time.
KM says she has a shower during the bedtime routine.
DP claims he can't remember that KM was only dressed in a towel when he called.
DP says he went into the apartment and saw the children and that he was there for around five minutes. KM says he was at the patio door and was there for 30 seconds. DP can't describe where in the apartment he went. These are doctors trained to recount facts. 30 seconds v 5 minutes is a massive inconsistency between two doctors recounting the same event. DP does describe the children as "at peace" but also goes to lengths to say they were all awake, and happy, normal, content.
Falling is the the number one cause of accidental home injury death
...." 00:39:55 Reply "But err certainly enough time just to see, you know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was untoward, that was you know err the children all looked extremely happy, there was no, you know signs of any problems with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the children had been told off, none of the children looked like they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was just a very err transient you know that I'd gone in there, but as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.'
1485 "Yeah.' Reply "And content I suppose is the other word to use.'
1485 "Did you actually go into the apartment'' Reply "I did.'
1485 "Or did you do the conversation from the door'' Reply "No, definitely was inside the apartment, you know whether it be two or three steps into the apartment or you know however many, but I was definitely in the apartment.'
00:41:00 1485 "Okay, so now what I'm gonna try and ask you to recollect, what everybody was wearing.' Reply "I'm afraid that is, you know I'm, I cannot recall at all. I know that's, you'd think that'd be an obvious thing to remember, I cannot remember. As I say the, from the children point of view predominantly I can remember the, you know, white, but I couldn't say exactly what they were wearing. Err'' 1485 "But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example'' Reply "I can't, no.'
1485 "And did you actually set eyes on each individual child'' Reply "All three children I saw, yeah.'
1485 "And were they standing up' Sitting down'' Reply "Err they were generally standing up, yeah."
(From DP's interview with UK Police)
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 06, 2019, 11:02:49 AM
But based on evidence, unlike supposition and speculation about watchers, bloodlines, timelines, cadaver dog alerts, cadaver dog handlers and what people 'must' have been thinking/feeling.
Strange how the Police didn't think the McCann's being watched was supposition and speculation isn't it?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on July 06, 2019, 11:05:29 AM
Were they 'sort of standing' and 'at peace' I thought they were looking at story books whilst Kate had a quick shower.
As for David Payne, he probably looked away from Kate, it bit embarrassed probably.
Exactly!! DP describes both "sort of standing" and also "at peace" when describing the children. It's his contradiction not mine.
Looking away because he is embarrassed is even more reason that he would remember she was wearing just a towel.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 11:13:30 AM
Here is the bit where he describes the children "at peace"
"I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn't there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who'd had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little, for a little while but he decided that he'd, he'd played enough tennis for that day and err was going back and so it left with me, Russell and err Matt and err Dan who was the, the you know the tennis coach from Mark Warner. "
What would be speculation would be for me to suggest that GM left immediately after DP arriving.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 06, 2019, 11:18:39 AM
Parent drugs children with prescription medicine, goes for a shower, comes out and finds child dying on the floor, does not call for medical assistance (too risky apparently giving your children phenargrn is illegal?) tries to save child’s life, fails, waits for hubbie to come, he says oh dear we will have to fake an abduction that’s far less risky than simply owning up to the actual sequence of events, now have this glass of wine and let’s go out and enjoy dinner with our mates, I’ve got this covered, just remember when you do the 10pm check to open the window and scream loudly “they’ve taken her”, then I will jog over close the window, oh and by then I will have already carried the body uncovered through town to dump in a bin, doesn’t matter if I’m seen, no one will suspect a thing.
Appeal to ridicule fallacy.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on July 06, 2019, 11:18:56 AM
Here is the bit where he describes the children "at peace"
"I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn't there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who'd had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little, for a little while but he decided that he'd, he'd played enough tennis for that day and err was going back and so it left with me, Russell and err Matt and err Dan who was the, the you know the tennis coach from Mark Warner. "
What would be speculation would be for me to suggest that GM left immediately after DP arriving.
I reckon he must have had an extra large trowel to be able to lay that guff on so thick
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 06, 2019, 11:22:41 AM
Exactly!! DP describes both "sort of standing" and also "at peace" when describing the children. It's his contradiction not mine.
Looking away because he is embarrassed is even more reason that he would remember she was wearing just a towel.
Not really, he knew she was wearing something that just about covered her. How was he going to explain that he glanced at Kate and saw her trying to cover herself up with something.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 06, 2019, 11:24:01 AM
Not really, he knew she was wearing something that just about covered her. How was he going to explain that he glanced at Kate and saw her trying to cover herself up with something.
It casts serious doubts on his or Kate’s reliability as witnesses.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2019, 11:28:10 AM
Not really, he knew she was wearing something that just about covered her. How was he going to explain that he glanced at Kate and saw her trying to cover herself up with something.
But he says he was there for 5 minutes and that he had a conversation with KM. IMO the fact that she was dressed only in a towel would not be something he couldn't remember.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 06, 2019, 11:36:59 AM
This fall would need to be near instantaneous to fit with any cover up theory, yet it seems extremely unlikely that a fall off a sofa would result in instant death.
But a fall from a balcony could.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2019, 11:37:41 AM
But he says he was there for 5 minutes and that he had a conversation with KM. IMO the fact that she was dressed only in a towel would not be something he couldn't remember.
So sorry you were deprived of a chance to add to the rumours of Swinging.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 11:41:43 AM
David Payne is obviously a gentleman. A dying breed that some of you know nothing about.
Why is he acting like "a gentleman"?.... because she is dressed only in a towel!! This stands out when you call round on a friend.
Yet when this doctor is in a crucial interview where the recollection of facts are essential:
00:41:00 1485 "Okay, so now what I'm gonna try and ask you to recollect, what everybody was wearing.' Reply "I'm afraid that is, you know I'm, I cannot recall at all. I know that's, you'd think that'd be an obvious thing to remember, I cannot remember. As I say the, from the children point of view predominantly I can remember the, you know, white, but I couldn't say exactly what they were wearing. Err'' 1485 "But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example'' Reply "I can't, no.' "
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 11:42:50 AM
Why is he acting like "a gentleman"?.... because she is dressed only in a towel!! This stands out when you call round on a friend.
Yet when this doctor is in a crucial interview where the recollection of facts are essential:
00:41:00 1485 "Okay, so now what I'm gonna try and ask you to recollect, what everybody was wearing.' Reply "I'm afraid that is, you know I'm, I cannot recall at all. I know that's, you'd think that'd be an obvious thing to remember, I cannot remember. As I say the, from the children point of view predominantly I can remember the, you know, white, but I couldn't say exactly what they were wearing. Err'' 1485 "But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example'' Reply "I can't, no.' "
Perhaps you could tell us why it was essential to know what Kate was wearing.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 06, 2019, 11:48:59 AM
Were they 'sort of standing' and 'at peace' I thought they were looking at story books whilst Kate had a quick shower.
As for David Payne, he probably looked away from Kate, it bit embarrassed probably.
I don't for one moment believe that the McCann's went to dinner to laugh and joke after an accident that killed Madeleine. Jez said Gerry was normal talking normally. The reaction to finding Madeleine was missing and not found was how they behaved correctly, devastated, shocked, totally inconsolable. IMO
Then surely if he’d done that he’d be more likely to remember what she wore ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 11:50:33 AM
Perhaps you could tell us why it was essential to know what Kate was wearing.
It indicates she has had a shower or bath whilst being the only parent in the apartment with the children.... and incidentally contradicting the account written by the PJ following the early interview.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2019, 11:58:04 AM
It indicates she has had a shower or bath whilst being the only parent in the apartment with the children.... and incidentally contradicting the account written by the PJ following the early interview.
Which earlier interview?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 11:58:59 AM
KMs account is also contrary to her husbands account, unless she had a shower at 18:30 and a bath at 19:30.
The hygiene done, the children were put to bed about 19h30, it being that the deponent and KATE left for dinner at the TAPAS at 20h30. Between 19h30 and 20h30 they took a bath and drank wine, Portuguese or New Zealand, and a beer.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2019, 12:01:24 PM
KMs account is also contrary to her husbands account, unless she had a shower at 18:30 and a bath at 19:30.
The hygiene done, the children were put to bed about 19h30, it being that the deponent and KATE left for dinner at the TAPAS at 20h30. Between 19h30 and 20h30 they took a bath and drank wine, Portuguese or New Zealand, and a beer.
You must surely realise that Kate didn't do both.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 12:01:48 PM
"Thursday May 3rd 2007 Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went to bed at around 7.30. They were in their respective beds. The interviewee and her husband stayed in their apartment to relax until 8.30pm. She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband. "
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 12:03:25 PM
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 12:12:57 PM
In September we have the shower version from KM (which differs considerably with DPs account):
"After showering, at around 6:30/6:40PM and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the veranda door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who it was. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left by this door. She confirmed it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly. David's visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area, which had been arranged but did not take place. David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds, he didn't actually enter the flat, he remained at the veranda door. According to her he then left for the tennis courts where Gerry was. The time was around 6:30-6:40PM."
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 12:13:24 PM
You said "... So for this to be the case we must accept that the McCanns were ablee to appear completely untroubled by this event ..."
And I replied to you.
And you replied with a post that had little relevance to the topic. We are being asked to believe by some that thr mccanns found their daughter dead and immediately came up with a plan to cover it up and were able to go to dinner acting as if nothing had happened
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 12:16:47 PM
IMO (and it's pure speculation) she could have maintained the bath version but DP had seen her in a towel... and err you know... err he probably err didn't remember you know err if he'd told the Police that... err or not.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 12:21:03 PM
And you replied with a post that had little relevance to the topic. We are being asked to believe by some that thr mccanns found their daughter dead and immediately came up with a plan to cover it up and were able to go to dinner acting as if nothing had happened
More credible than the dogs being wrong 11 times and only towards one family.
These dogs are proven to be accurate, by forensic science research, 90-100% of the time.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 06, 2019, 12:25:09 PM
But he says he was there for 5 minutes and that he had a conversation with KM. IMO the fact that she was dressed only in a towel would not be something he couldn't remember.
I doubt if he was there for five minutes sounds as though he has no sense of time, he popped in said it was a bit early for them to be going to bed Kate replied they were all exhausted and he left that wouldn't have taken five minutes. There was questions as to how long it took him to go to the McCann's house maybe that and the conversation with Kate took five minutes. Maybe Kate was looking from around the bathroom? He could see she had something on but he was not sure what it was.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 06, 2019, 12:26:18 PM
you are describing one man with an obvious personality disorder...who probably showed signs of this disorder previously. What we re being asked to accept is taht the mccanns had personality disorders which had not been expressed previously or since...and their group of friends covered up several serios crimes which would make them criminally involved too. do you think the tapas would donate their libel win to a fund they knew to be fraudulent
I was responding to a point made by Verti, as to whether after such an act, can someone appear convivial and friends not put on alert. It happened in this instance.
Why drag in the T7, when they may be perfectly innocent and unknowing?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 12:29:26 PM
More credible than the dogs being wrong 11 times and only towards one family.
These dogs are proven to be accurate, by forensic science research, 90-100% of the time.
They are not proved to be accurate... That's the problem you and others have. They have been shown to be accurate at detecting cadaver odour if it's present... That's all
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 12:31:02 PM
I was responding to a point made by Verti, as to whether after such an act, can someone appear convivial and friends not put on alert. It happened in this instance.
Why drag in the T7, when they may be perfectly innocent and unknowing?
In any realistic scenario the T7 would have to be involved
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 06, 2019, 12:45:44 PM
I doubt if he was there for five minutes sounds as though he has no sense of time, he popped in said it was a bit early for them to be going to bed Kate replied they were all exhausted and he left that wouldn't have taken five minutes. There was questions as to how long it took him to go to the McCann's house maybe that and the conversation with Kate took five minutes. Maybe Kate was looking from around the bathroom? He could see she had something on but he was not sure what it was.
All we can go on is what he actually said to Police about the encounter:
On May 4th 2007 he doesn't mention it.
In the April 2008 interview with LP he says "five minutes" and then when pressed later "three to five minutes"
1485 "How many minutes, you said as a matter of minutes and then you went back and then you played tennis.' Reply "Mm.'
1485 "I'm gonna pin you down and ask you how long you think you were in there for. I know you say minutes.' Reply "In their apartment, it, it, I'd say three minutes, five maximum.'
1485 "Three to five'' Reply "Yeah.'
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2019, 12:48:53 PM
IMO (and it's pure speculation) she could have maintained the bath version but DP had seen her in a towel... and err you know... err he probably err didn't remember you know err if he'd told the Police that... err or not.
Ah, more Translation Errors. Thank you for finding this.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 12:52:51 PM
They are not proved to be accurate... That's the problem you and others have. They have been shown to be accurate at detecting cadaver odour if it's present... That's all
They have not been shown to alert to faeces, urine, nappies or cooked meat as some implied.
If they were inaccurate it wouldn't be 11 times towards items relating to only one family. These results are indicative of a correct response.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2019, 12:55:24 PM
I watch such programmes for amusement, not to xref them to the MM case.
It was by pure coincidence that I read Verti's attempt to demolish the 'ability to remain convivial' angle shortly thereafter.
My post seems to have struck a nerve though.
Quest Red CCTV footage.... it never ceases to amaze me how normal people act.... Just for the record though I don't believe the dogs alert is indicative that someone has been murdered.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 06, 2019, 12:56:02 PM
All we can go on is what he actually said to Police about the encounter:
On May 4th 2007 he doesn't mention it.
In the April 2008 interview with LP he says "five minutes" and then when pressed later "three to five minutes"
1485 "How many minutes, you said as a matter of minutes and then you went back and then you played tennis.' Reply "Mm.'
1485 "I'm gonna pin you down and ask you how long you think you were in there for. I know you say minutes.' Reply "In their apartment, it, it, I'd say three minutes, five maximum.'
1485 "Three to five'' Reply "Yeah.'
He can't remember.
The thing is if the McCann's and David Payne had got together and said, look David we need you to say you called in to see Kate and the children we need someone to say they saw them at half six or so. Then you would think they would get the story straight wouldn't you? Especially how long he stayed at the apartment.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 12:56:08 PM
The thing is if the McCann's and David Payne had got together and said, look David we need you to say you called in to see Kate and the children we need someone to say they saw them at half six or so. Then you would think they would get the story straight wouldn't you? Especially how long he stayed at the apartment.
I don't think they did invent the visit to get someone to say they saw the kids alive.
What do you mean he can't remember? He says "3-5 minutes".... she says "30 seconds"
Can you remember if you had a shower yesterday?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 01:00:13 PM
Ah, more Translation Errors. Thank you for finding this.
The routine change and many contradictions between the last witnesses in the hours before the disappearance will surely be another revelation to investigators working on this case.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 06, 2019, 01:04:19 PM
The routine change and many contradictions between the last witnesses in the hours before the disappearance will surely be another revelation to investigators working on this case.
Nah - I think they are looking at other things altogether.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on July 06, 2019, 01:04:42 PM
The routine change and many contradictions between the last witnesses in the hours before the disappearance will surely be another revelation to investigators working on this case.
Unless they choose to ignore them 8(0(*
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on July 06, 2019, 01:05:38 PM
Why would they ignore these alleged contradictions?
"Alleged" - you can read them for yourself.....
Granted bath or shower might become "bathed"..... but whether it was 19:30 and alone with the kids or 20:30 and with Gerry. That is a contradiction... and not a translation error.
30 seconds v 3-5 minutes is an inconsistency. door closed v door open is an inconsistency. spoke from outside v came into the apartment is an inconsistency.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Erngath on July 06, 2019, 01:21:03 PM
Granted bath or shower might become "bathed"..... but whether it was 19:30 and alone with the kids or 20:30 and with Gerry. That is a contradiction... and not a translation error.
30 seconds v 3-5 minutes is an inconsistency. door closed v door open is an inconsistency. spoke from outside v came into the apartment is an inconsistency.
Then presumably NSY have noticed these glaring inconsistencies.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 01:24:30 PM
Translation errors?
Bath..... Banho Shower..... Chuveiro
Which did she have and when?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 06, 2019, 01:25:32 PM
And you replied with a post that had little relevance to the topic. We are being asked to believe by some that thr mccanns found their daughter dead and immediately came up with a plan to cover it up and were able to go to dinner acting as if nothing had happened
I don't know who 'we' are, nor who 'some' are, which deflates your post.
I was responding to a post suggesting that convivial behaviour after a major incident makes that incident impossible.
It doesn't.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2019, 01:25:43 PM
Granted bath or shower might become "bathed"..... but whether it was 19:30 and alone with the kids or 20:30 and with Gerry. That is a contradiction... and not a translation error.
30 seconds v 3-5 minutes is an inconsistency. door closed v door open is an inconsistency. spoke from outside v came into the apartment is an inconsistency.
She had just finished a long run and would be sweaty so that suggests she had a shower before Gerry left for tennis at 18:00. And that explains why David Payne remembered no towel at 18:30.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 01:26:54 PM
They haven't got the answer either. No one has. That is the problem with all of this speculation.
There answer was that the areas alerted to are likely to provide some evidence of value.
We know that they did. the test on the material found was "too complex for meaningful interpretation". There were 15 DNA markers than corresponded to MM's DNA, but DNA from more than one person. The conclusion being the cellular material may belong to MM - but may not.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2019, 01:33:12 PM
There answer was that the areas alerted to are likely to provide some evidence of value.
We know that they did. the test on the material found was "too complex for meaningful interpretation". There were 15 DNA markers than corresponded to MM's DNA, but DNA from more than one person. The conclusion being the cellular material may belong to MM - but may not.
So utterly useless.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 01:33:33 PM
She had just finished a long run and would be sweaty so that suggests she had a shower before Gerry left for tennis at 18:00. And that explains why David Payne remembered no towel at 18:30.
Why then does she initially say she had a bath at 20:30..... then later say she had a shower when Gerry was out playing tennis (around 18:30)?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 01:34:49 PM
There answer was that the areas alerted to are likely to provide some evidence of value.
We know that they did. the test on the material found was "too complex for meaningful interpretation". There were 15 DNA markers than corresponded to MM's DNA, but DNA from more than one person. The conclusion being the cellular material may belong to MM - but may not.
You say likely... I say most unlikely
What difference would it make if it was maddies... Simple transference.... Sutton didn't seem to understand that
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 06, 2019, 01:35:02 PM
Not any more. Technology is advancing all the time. The samples, or even the data from the original analysis, can now be re-analysed. Like when that new fangled metric system came out and confounded everyone.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2019, 01:37:25 PM
Four different accounts from three different people... Furthermore the English interview was tape recorded. I don't believe it is translated into Portuguese then back into English... but willing to be proved wrong.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 06, 2019, 01:38:23 PM
Not any more. Technology is advancing all the time. The samples, or even the data from the original analysis, can now be re-analysed. Like when that new fangled metric system came out and confounded everyone.
Even if it was proven a couple of cells of maddies DNA was in the hire car it wouldnt indicate anything
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 06, 2019, 01:39:14 PM
Judging by the quantity of responses to such a minor point and those making the responses, I might as well go off into the campo to wave a red flag at a bull.
&^^&*
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2019, 01:39:25 PM
Judging by the quantity of responses to such a minor point and those making the responses, I might as well go off into the campo to wave a red flag at a bull.
&^^&*
Jolly good idea... Just do it
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 01:44:36 PM
I won't ask you for a cite because you won't have one..it's the data that is still available as I understand... Not the sample
I do have a cite, but as per my usual slipshod approach, I won't be revealing it. Suffice to say, certain freedom of information requests have been, or are being, processed. That's all I can say at this stage. I will not be taking any further questions (waves tiny hands, leaves podium, Sarah Huckerbee Sanders takes over and starts waffling on about Mike Pence's visit to an evangelical congregation made entirely of balsa wood)
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 01:45:11 PM
I do have a cite, but as per my usual slipshod approach, I won't be revealing it. Suffice to say, certain freedom of information requests have been, or are being, processed. That's all I can say at this stage. I will not be taking any further questions (waves tiny hands, leaves podium, Sarah Huckerbee Sanders takes over and starts waffling on about Mike Pence's visit to an evangelical congregation made entirely of balsa wood)
It is the data MS was talking about... Not the samples
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 01:47:04 PM
Why then does she initially say she had a bath at 20:30..... then later say she had a shower when Gerry was out playing tennis (around 18:30)?
The first statement says it was a normal daily routine so taking a bath/shower before going out for dinner is normal. 18:30 - To cover up something else at that time?
And this from Fiona suggests Kate was bathing the children at that time and not before 18:00.
"Gerry said, were just absolutely knackered and Kate was getting them bathed and ready for bed." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 06, 2019, 01:52:29 PM
You posted... Actually it would.... So cite for what it would indicate
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 06, 2019, 02:15:33 PM
Based on the report produced by the National Police Improvement Agency into the disappearance of Shannon Matthews which stated:
"The properties that the dog searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died. This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."
The dogs are clearly able to scent odours from items that have been moved around and are nothing to do with soc as above. In this case, MM, we can't possibly know the history of the apartment, its contents and the hire car. Therefore its quite possible the alerts were not connected to the investigation but something similar to above. In the Shannon Matthews case the British police were clearly able to identify the issue ie second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died, but in the case of MM I can't see where these sorts of issues have even been considered let alone identified and eliminated?
In terms of the human cellular material thought to be blood as detected by the dog, but invisible to the naked eye, we have no idea if a) it was definitely blood b) if it was blood, or some other human cellular material, how did it get there and who did it originate from.
These tests/results are utterly meaningless.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 02:17:26 PM
The remit did not state the investigation had not begun at the beginning... From what I have seen SY looked, at all the evidence against the mccanns and have come to the, same conclusion I and many others, have.... The mccanns are not involved
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 02:18:34 PM
Based on the report produced by the National Police Improvement Agency into the disappearance of Shannon Matthews which stated:
"The properties that the dog searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died. This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."
The dogs are clearly able to scent odours from items that have been moved around and are nothing to do with soc as above. In this case, MM, we can't possibly know the history of the apartment, its contents and the hire car. Therefore its quite possible the alerts were not connected to the investigation but something similar to above. In the Shannon Matthews case the British police were clearly able to identify the issue ie second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died, but in the case of MM I can't see where these sorts of issues have even been considered let alone identified and eliminated?
In terms of the human cellular material thought to be blood as detected by the dog, but invisible to the naked eye, we have no idea if a) it was definitely blood b) if it was blood, or some other human cellular material, how did it get there and who did it originate from.
These tests/results are utterly meaningless.
Conspiracy theorists don't accept clear logic
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 02:19:35 PM
Based on the report produced by the National Police Improvement Agency into the disappearance of Shannon Matthews which stated:
"The properties that the dog searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died. This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."
The dogs are clearly able to scent odours from items that have been moved around and are nothing to do with soc as above. In this case, MM, we can't possibly know the history of the apartment, its contents and the hire car. Therefore its quite possible the alerts were not connected to the investigation but something similar to above. In the Shannon Matthews case the British police were clearly able to identify the issue ie second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died, but in the case of MM I can't see where these sorts of issues have even been considered let alone identified and eliminated?
In terms of the human cellular material thought to be blood as detected by the dog, but invisible to the naked eye, we have no idea if a) it was definitely blood b) if it was blood, or some other human cellular material, how did it get there and who did it originate from.
These tests/results are utterly meaningless.
So in the Matthews case the dog correctly alerted to cadaver odour. The scientists have to work out the how and when.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 06, 2019, 02:20:59 PM
Based on the report produced by the National Police Improvement Agency into the disappearance of Shannon Matthews which stated:
"The properties that the dog searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died. This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."
The dogs are clearly able to scent odours from items that have been moved around and are nothing to do with soc as above. In this case, MM, we can't possibly know the history of the apartment, its contents and the hire car. Therefore its quite possible the alerts were not connected to the investigation but something similar to above. In the Shannon Matthews case the British police were clearly able to identify the issue ie second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died, but in the case of MM I can't see where these sorts of issues have even been considered let alone identified and eliminated?
In terms of the human cellular material thought to be blood as detected by the dog, but invisible to the naked eye, we have no idea if a) it was definitely blood b) if it was blood, or some other human cellular material, how did it get there and who did it originate from.
These tests/results are utterly meaningless.
Not meaningless if in the end result the perpetrator confesses to the actual crime.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 02:21:18 PM
Several cases a cadaver DOG SEARCH HAS resulted in a perpetrator confessing to the crime. From memory the one discussed on the forum was the Zapata case.
So even if the evidence wasn't good enough to go to court with, the psychological pressure applied on the witness was enough to make him crack.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 06, 2019, 02:29:42 PM
So in the Matthews case the dog correctly alerted to cadaver odour. The scientists have to work out the how and when.
Potentially cadaver odour is prevalent all over the place if its capable of being carried from one place to another eg second-hand furniture bought from one dwelling where someone has died to another dwelling where someone hasn't died? How would forensic scientists be capable of working out who the odour belonged to and when/where it was secreted? Surely this would be a case of the police investigators simply carrying out checks on the history of items?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 06, 2019, 02:32:37 PM
Potentially cadaver odour is prevalent all over the place if its capable of being carried from one place to another eg second-hand furniture bought from one dwelling where someone has died to another dwelling where someone hasn't died? How would forensic scientists be capable of working out who the odour belonged to and when/where it was secreted? Surely this would be a case of the police investigators simply carrying out checks on the history of items?
Some people think it lasts forever but it doesn't as you have pointed out by logic. If it did last forever it would be everywhere.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 06, 2019, 02:34:23 PM
Several cases a cadaver DOG SEARCH HAS resulted in a perpetrator confessing to the crime. From memory the one discussed on the forum was the Zapata case.
So even if the evidence wasn't good enough to go to court with, the psychological pressure applied on the witness was enough to make him crack.
Well I don't know anything about the Zapata case but in MM's case the dogs have not produced anything remotely meaningful let alone anything capable of finding its way to court.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 06, 2019, 02:45:10 PM
Some people think it lasts forever but it doesn't as you have pointed out by logic. If it did last forever it would be everywhere.
I'm not sure I suggested it doesn't last forever? I don't know how long it lasts but what I do know from the report produced about SM is that the cadaver odour is capable of being transferred from one place to another by items that have been in contact with corpses and this makes the alerts highly unreliable in a lot of instances.
I often take things to charity shops and hold my breath as I enter as to my nose they all have a sort of musty smell, maybe scent of death about them, could this be cadaver odour? A lot of people take things to charity shops when they have a clear out after someone has died. Maybe MG could take his dogs in and see what sort of alerts they give off! Bet they would howl the place down!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 06, 2019, 02:52:00 PM
The remit did not state the investigation had not begun at the beginning... From what I have seen SY looked, at all the evidence against the mccanns and have come to the, same conclusion I and many others, have.... The mccanns are not involved
I don't care about your opinion on this, nor that of the alleged 'many others'.
You asked a question, you got the answer, it's the remit.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 02:57:56 PM
Hypothetically - what would it show if MM's DNA was indeed found in the hire car?
It wouldnt show anything because such a small amount could be present by transference.. If anyone disagrees they should explain why... They won't be able to
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 03:12:00 PM
I'm not sure I suggested it doesn't last forever? I don't know how long it lasts but what I do know from the report produced about SM is that the cadaver odour is capable of being transferred from one place to another by items that have been in contact with corpses and this makes the alerts highly unreliable in a lot of instances.
I often take things to charity shops and hold my breath as I enter as to my nose they all have a sort of musty smell, maybe scent of death about them, could this be cadaver odour? A lot of people take things to charity shops when they have a clear out after someone has died. Maybe MG could take his dogs in and see what sort of alerts they give off! Bet they would howl the place down!
There's an interesting thought.
I wonder how one would check whether items were from a deceased or a living person?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 03:21:34 PM
I'm not sure I suggested it doesn't last forever? I don't know how long it lasts but what I do know from the report produced about SM is that the cadaver odour is capable of being transferred from one place to another by items that have been in contact with corpses and this makes the alerts highly unreliable in a lot of instances.
I often take things to charity shops and hold my breath as I enter as to my nose they all have a sort of musty smell, maybe scent of death about them, could this be cadaver odour? A lot of people take things to charity shops when they have a clear out after someone has died. Maybe MG could take his dogs in and see what sort of alerts they give off! Bet they would howl the place down!
Proper testing of the dogs would involve this sort of thing
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on July 06, 2019, 03:36:22 PM
I'm not sure I suggested it doesn't last forever? I don't know how long it lasts but what I do know from the report produced about SM is that the cadaver odour is capable of being transferred from one place to another by items that have been in contact with corpses and this makes the alerts highly unreliable in a lot of instances.
I often take things to charity shops and hold my breath as I enter as to my nose they all have a sort of musty smell, maybe scent of death about them, could this be cadaver odour? A lot of people take things to charity shops when they have a clear out after someone has died. Maybe MG could take his dogs in and see what sort of alerts they give off! Bet they would howl the place down!
No, the alerts are perfectly reliable. Its the human interpretation of the alerts that can be a bit iffy.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 03:42:22 PM
I'm not sure I suggested it doesn't last forever? I don't know how long it lasts but what I do know from the report produced about SM is that the cadaver odour is capable of being transferred from one place to another by items that have been in contact with corpses and this makes the alerts highly unreliable in a lot of instances.
I often take things to charity shops and hold my breath as I enter as to my nose they all have a sort of musty smell, maybe scent of death about them, could this be cadaver odour? A lot of people take things to charity shops when they have a clear out after someone has died. Maybe MG could take his dogs in and see what sort of alerts they give off! Bet they would howl the place down!
Except forensic science shows they are not often wrong. They are right 90-100% of the time. So in these eleven alerts - one, maybe two I’d accept as false positives... but eleven??! And all eleven relating to just one family.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 03:43:56 PM
There is no evidence the alerts are reliable Even grime tells us they are merely suggestive
Its the humans doing the suggestions, not the dogs who are quite positive about what they have found. You don't get the dogs pondering is it , isn't ? IMO
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 03:55:02 PM
Its the humans doing the suggestions, not the dogs who are quite positive about what they have found. You don't get the dogs pondering is it , isn't ? IMO
We don't know what the dogs think they've found...
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on July 06, 2019, 03:57:19 PM
Well we would be talking two hours plus... but the bodies chemical response to extreme situations happens almost immediately. It would certainly constitute abnormal behaviour in this case but it does happen occasionally that people who have just witnessed or committed the most shocking acts can act normally around others.
It's not as far fetched as believing highly trained specialist dogs that are proven by forensic science to be right 90-100% of the time suddenly and inexplicably start making mistakes.... and their mistakes are only towards items relating to one family.
We also know KM took a shower around the kids bedtime. We know it's implied in her first interview that she had a bath (but later when GM was there). We know that for some reason DP can't remember that KM was dressed only in a towel and went to bizarre lengths to describe how everything was normal, no-one was in trouble, the children were very happy, "sort of standing" and "at peace". We know that falling is the number one cause of accidental home injury death.
What are these “bizarre lengths” of which you speak? What bath? She had a shower then a bath in the same evening? If falling is the number one cause of death at home then the internet should be littered with examples of children falling off furniture to their near instant deaths. In fact it’s a wonder any of us let our kids sit on the sofa so apparently lethal they are if they fall off!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 06:03:29 PM
I was responding to a point made by Verti, as to whether after such an act, can someone appear convivial and friends not put on alert. It happened in this instance.
Why drag in the T7, when they may be perfectly innocent and unknowing?
Your example was ridiculous but thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 06:13:01 PM
I wonder how one would check whether items were from a deceased or a living person?
I would suggest taking them into charity shops where we know a lot of items have come from the deceased and then take them to retail outlets selling brand new items and see what the difference in alerts is. If they alert repeatedly in the former then maybe set up a charity shop with items from the deceased and brand new items and see how accurate they are at distinguishing.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 06, 2019, 06:30:59 PM
I would suggest taking them into charity shops where we know a lot of items have come from the deceased and then take them to retail outlets selling brand new items and see what the difference in alerts is. If they alert repeatedly in the former then maybe set up a charity shop with items from the deceased and brand new items and see how accurate they are at distinguishing.
OK. There is a charity shop at the east end of Luz on Rua Direita, just as one drives out of the old old road to Lagos. I tried to enter it once, but although the shop sign said 'open', the ladies inside said 'closed'.
Perhaps I should raid it with my cadaver dog. What do you reckon?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 06:45:46 PM
Sorry ? I don’t have to do anything....especially twice.
My point is falling from a balcony could kill a young child.
Unless Madeleine through herself off the far end of the balcony the second the McCanns left for dinner she would not have been dead long enough to leave cadaver odour. You can persist with your belief that children’s bodies emit cadaver odour sooner than adults because you need to for your theory to work, the problem is, it is only a belief, one with no evidence whatsoever to support it.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 06:50:30 PM
OK. There is a charity shop at the east end of Luz on Rua Direita, just as one drives out of the old old road to Lagos. I tried to enter it once, but although the shop sign said 'open', the ladies inside said 'closed'.
Perhaps I should raid it with my cadaver dog. What do you reckon?
I presume that’s a joke...at least I hope it is!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 06, 2019, 06:51:24 PM
Unless Madeleine through herself off the far end of the balcony the second the McCanns left for dinner she would not have been dead long enough to leave cadaver odour. You can persist with your belief that children’s bodies emit cadaver odour sooner than adults because you need to for your theory to work, the problem is, it is only a belief, one with no evidence whatsoever to support it.
I don’t believe that children’s bodies emit cadaver odour sooner than adults. I said there was no research to prove it either way and therefore it remains a possibility.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 06:53:44 PM
I don’t believe that children’s bodies emit cadaver odour sooner than adults. I said there was no research to prove it either way and therefore it remains a possibility.
It needs to be a certainty for anyone who believes Madeleine died in the apartment after thr McCanns left for dinner.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 06, 2019, 06:57:04 PM
Then you will have some evidence that they did, what is it?
To deploy Eddie they must have believed that Madeleine had possibly died in the apartment or else why deploy a cadaver dog and if they also believed the tapas narrative, the body could only have lain in situ for less than 90 minutes.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 06, 2019, 08:00:43 PM
To deploy Eddie they must have believed that Madeleine had possibly died in the apartment or else why deploy a cadaver dog and if they also believed the tapas narrative, the body could only have lain in situ for less than 90 minutes.
This is a good observation that I had never really given much thought to before.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 08:07:37 PM
To deploy Eddie they must have believed that Madeleine had possibly died in the apartment or else why deploy a cadaver dog and if they also believed the tapas narrative, the body could only have lain in situ for less than 90 minutes.
That’s illogical. If they thought Madeleine died in the apartment they would have to suspect the parents so why would they believe the timeline?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 08:10:12 PM
What are these “bizarre lengths” of which you speak? What bath? She had a shower then a bath in the same evening? If falling is the number one cause of death at home then the internet should be littered with examples of children falling off furniture to their near instant deaths. In fact it’s a wonder any of us let our kids sit on the sofa so apparently lethal they are if they fall off!
This is not how most doctors would describe their friends children when asked a simple question about how you entered the apartment (if at all);
she said ah no, I've had such a good, you know such a good day and afternoon err so you know, and Gerry's just obviously finishing off playing tennis and err so you know hopefully try and get them down and as I say we were just, you know I, I know, it does sound bizarre but I just looked at the three of them and I couldn't, you know they were just so well presented and so clean and immaculate it was, you know I was, and you know they just looked such healthy children, err you know, there's, there's you know nothing that normally''
1485 "Yeah.' 00:38:36 Reply "Triggers in my mind like that but it was just how well that they looked and err''
1485 "Try to remember where in, where they were in the apartment.'
Reply "Err, I mean the, the time that I was there err you know all, all of them err all the children and Kate were in the, err as soon as you go through the patio doors err you know they were all in the immediate area you know in front of you, err that was the area that they generally, you know when I saw them, so I didn't, no I didn't go any further into the apartment, you know it was just a conversation that I like, you know walked into the, you know through the French doors, I went into the lounge err you know the open plan area and err you know just had a brief conversation, you know things started off by as I say, saying about the, how well they looked and you know, it's early to get them ready for bed and then I said oh Gerry's, you know just finished over there, we're going over to play a bit of tennis, err I probably said is there any problems with that and she said ah no, no fine, you know carry on, and err you know perhaps a bit more of a conversation err but you know it, it wasn't many minutes that I was, was there.'
1485 "Yeah.' 00:39:55 Reply "But err certainly enough time just to see, you know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was untoward, that was you know err the children all looked extremely happy, there was no, you know signs of any problems with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the children had been told off, none of the children looked like they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was just a very err transient you know that I'd gone in there, but as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.'
1485 "Yeah.' Reply "And content I suppose is the other word to use.'
He's already described the children once earlier in the statement: The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn't there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who'd had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little,
IMO that's going some length to say everything was fine - when no-one has even asked him that question.
I've since come across another different version of events in an email sent from LP by DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL: To: Ricard Paiva From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL Ref: David Payne Date: October 24, 2007
Leicester Police Constabulary
Ricardo,
As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.
"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne." but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.
When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and cannot remember if anyone else was there.
He does not remember what he was wearing that afternoon.
He took part in the searches, having carried out most of them alone. He was at times accompanied by Matthew Oldfield.
He did not partake in the searches realized on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters.
For many questions, he does not give a complete response, affirming simply that he has already given this information to the Portuguese police in his declarations.
I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.
Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement. 6 statements from KM, GM, and DP and an email from UK Police reporting on a conversation with DP we have 5 different versions of what happened - and you don't think that needs further investigation? They differ on the time of DP's visit, who was there, how long before he returned to the tennis court, whether he was in the apartment or not and what time GM was playing tennis or was at the apartment..
KM (May 07) Payne visit not mentioned. Bath at 20:30 GM (May 07) Payne visit not mentioned. No mention of playing tennis at 18:30 but instead says both parents went to the apartment with children at 18:30. Both him and KM had bath at 19:30 to 20:30. DP (May 07) Does not talk about anything before 20:55 when describing events of May 3rd. KM (Sept 07) Both her and GM and kids went to apartment at 17:30. GM left at 18:00 to play tennis. she had a shower at 18:30. DP knocked on door but didn't come in (18:30/18:40). 30 second conversion. Gerry came back at 19:00. He maybe had a shower. DP (Oct 07 - see above) . He last saw MM at 17:00 in 5A. Both GM and KM were there. DP (April 08) Went to 5A at 18:30. Did go in the apartment. GM not there. Can't remember what KM was wearing. Saw all the kids. Stayed 3-5 minutes. GM (Sept 07) - Tennis 18:00-19:00. 18:30 had discussion with DP. Asked DP to visit KM.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 08:16:18 PM
This is not how most doctors would describe their friends children when asked a simple question about how you entered the apartment (if at all);
she said ah no, I've had such a good, you know such a good day and afternoon err so you know, and Gerry's just obviously finishing off playing tennis and err so you know hopefully try and get them down and as I say we were just, you know I, I know, it does sound bizarre but I just looked at the three of them and I couldn't, you know they were just so well presented and so clean and immaculate it was, you know I was, and you know they just looked such healthy children, err you know, there's, there's you know nothing that normally''
1485 "Yeah.' 00:38:36 Reply "Triggers in my mind like that but it was just how well that they looked and err''
1485 "Try to remember where in, where they were in the apartment.'
Reply "Err, I mean the, the time that I was there err you know all, all of them err all the children and Kate were in the, err as soon as you go through the patio doors err you know they were all in the immediate area you know in front of you, err that was the area that they generally, you know when I saw them, so I didn't, no I didn't go any further into the apartment, you know it was just a conversation that I like, you know walked into the, you know through the French doors, I went into the lounge err you know the open plan area and err you know just had a brief conversation, you know things started off by as I say, saying about the, how well they looked and you know, it's early to get them ready for bed and then I said oh Gerry's, you know just finished over there, we're going over to play a bit of tennis, err I probably said is there any problems with that and she said ah no, no fine, you know carry on, and err you know perhaps a bit more of a conversation err but you know it, it wasn't many minutes that I was, was there.'
1485 "Yeah.' 00:39:55 Reply "But err certainly enough time just to see, you know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was untoward, that was you know err the children all looked extremely happy, there was no, you know signs of any problems with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the children had been told off, none of the children looked like they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was just a very err transient you know that I'd gone in there, but as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.'
1485 "Yeah.' Reply "And content I suppose is the other word to use.'
He's already described the children once earlier in the statement: The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn't there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who'd had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little,
IMO that's going some length to say everything was fine - when no-one has even asked him that question.
I've since come across another different version of events in an email sent from LP by DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL: To: Ricard Paiva From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL Ref: David Payne Date: October 24, 2007
Leicester Police Constabulary
Ricardo,
As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.
"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne." but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.
When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and cannot remember if anyone else was there.
He does not remember what he was wearing that afternoon.
He took part in the searches, having carried out most of them alone. He was at times accompanied by Matthew Oldfield.
He did not partake in the searches realized on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters.
For many questions, he does not give a complete response, affirming simply that he has already given this information to the Portuguese police in his declarations.
I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.
Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement. 6 statements from KM, GM, and DP and an email from UK Police reporting on a conversation with DP we have 5 different versions of what happened - and you don't think that needs further investigation? They differ on the time of DP's visit, who was there, how long before he returned to the tennis court, whether he was in the apartment or not and what time GM was playing tennis or was at the apartment..
KM (May 07) Payne visit not mentioned. Bath at 20:30 GM (May 07) Payne visit not mentioned. No mention of playing tennis at 18:30 but instead says both parents went to the apartment with children at 18:30. Both him and KM had bath at 19:30 to 20:30. DP (May 07) Does not talk about anything before 20:55 when describing events of May 3rd. KM (Sept 07) Both her and GM and kids went to apartment at 17:30. GM left at 18:00 to play tennis. she had a shower at 18:30. DP knocked on door but didn't come in (18:30/18:40). 30 second conversion. Gerry came back at 19:00. He maybe had a shower. DP (Oct 07 - see above) . He last saw MM at 17:00 in 5A. Both GM and KM were there. DP (April 08) Went to 5A at 18:30. Did go in the apartment. GM not there. Can't remember what KM was wearing. Saw all the kids. Stayed 3-5 minutes. GM (Sept 07) - Tennis 18:00-19:00. 18:30 had discussion with DP. Asked DP to visit KM.
How do you know how most doctors would respond to that question? He was recalling the last time he saw the little girl of close friends. His description is poignant, emotional, but bizzare? No, it’s only bizarre if you are convinced he’s some sort of paedo. As for the differing accounts, I think we can safely rule out collusion don’t you?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 08:25:51 PM
How do you know how most doctors would respond to that question? He was recalling the last time he saw the little girl of close friends. His description is poignant, emotional, but bizzare? No, it’s only bizarre if you are convinced he’s some sort of paedo. As for the differing accounts, I think we can safely rule out collusion don’t you?
It's not that at all. I have no evidence he is a paedophile.. it's the length he goes to point out nothing bad has happened to them... He wasn't asked that.... Iwork in a hospital and healthcare workers, particularly Doctors report on facts against times and how that relates to people on a daily basis. They often attend court to describe events and sudden deaths etc. They are generally good at recounting timelines. They do it all day long.... Yet here we have four or five versions of what happened from 17:00.... Is that not worthy of investigation?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 08:42:31 PM
Going through all those statements I came across this...
" When they travelled on holiday to Portugal they brought several medicines, namely Calpol, Nurofen, for fevers and pains, both for adults and children, Losec for gastric problems that he occasionally suffers from, and an anti-histamine called Terfenadine for hay fever. He did not give any of these medicines or any others to the children while on holiday in Portugal."
Didn't I tell you!! Lots of healthcare workers are aware of it's sedative uses for the kids on holiday. It's also used for travel sickness so associated with holidays... and you can look like your lying but truthfully say "we never gave the children sedative drugs" because Phenergan isn't strictly speaking a sedative drug... It's an anti-histamine for hayfever or travel sickness... but any doctor would know it has very effective sedative side effects - especially in children.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 08:53:13 PM
Going through all those statements I came across this...
" When they travelled on holiday to Portugal they brought several medicines, namely Calpol, Nurofen, for fevers and pains, both for adults and children, Losec for gastric problems that he occasionally suffers from, and an anti-histamine called Terfenadine for hay fever. He did not give any of these medicines or any others to the children while on holiday in Portugal."
Didn't I tell you!! Lots of healthcare workers are aware of it's sedative uses for the kids on holiday. It's also used for travel sickness so associated with holidays... and you can look like your lying but truthfully say "we never gave the children sedative drugs" because Phenergan isn't strictly speaking a sedative drug... It's an anti-histamine for hayfever or travel sickness... but any doctor would know it has very effective sedative side effects - especially in children.
This has all been discussed at length... Think what you want... I couldn't be bothered with it all again
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on July 06, 2019, 08:57:57 PM
It's not that at all. I have no evidence he is a paedophile.. it's the length he goes to point out nothing bad has happened to them... He wasn't asked that.... Iwork in a hospital and healthcare workers, particularly Doctors report on facts against times and how that relates to people on a daily basis. They often attend court to describe events and sudden deaths etc. They are generally good at recounting timelines. They do it all day long.... Yet here we have four or five versions of what happened from 17:00.... Is that not worthy of investigation?
You don’t think it was investigated? Are the doctors you work with reporting on facts to do with close personal friends and their relatives on a regular basis? Are they often asked to recount events that happened to them whilst on holiday months earlier? Are their recollections often being cross referenced with numerous other witnesses recollections? What do you think differing accounts tells us? I’m thinking you’d be happier if they all had identical recollections but that’s not real life is it?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 09:01:34 PM
This has all been discussed at length... Think what you want... I couldn't be bothered with it all again
None of us can prove anything. So you can think what you want too. Working in a hospital I’ve heard all about Phenergan use on holiday.. It’s sedative (side) effect is very well known.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 09:02:40 PM
None of us can prove anything. So you can think what you want too. Working in a hospital I’ve heard all about Phenergan use on holiday.. It’s sedative (side) effect is very well known.
Is it illegal?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 09:04:52 PM
It's not that at all. I have no evidence he is a paedophile.. it's the length he goes to point out nothing bad has happened to them... He wasn't asked that.... Iwork in a hospital and healthcare workers, particularly Doctors report on facts against times and how that relates to people on a daily basis. They often attend court to describe events and sudden deaths etc. They are generally good at recounting timelines. They do it all day long.... Yet here we have four or five versions of what happened from 17:00.... Is that not worthy of investigation?
Many of the statements may not be accurate due to translation errors as I've pointed out many times
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 06, 2019, 09:14:40 PM
None of us can prove anything. So you can think what you want too. Working in a hospital I’ve heard all about Phenergan use on holiday.. It’s sedative (side) effect is very well known.
It's very well known but none of the doctors I know would think of sedating their children... Is it nurses at your hospital who might do it
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 06, 2019, 09:21:23 PM
Well I don't know anything about the Zapata case but in MM's case the dogs have not produced anything remotely meaningful let alone anything capable of finding its way to court.
But how close to a confession did the PJ get? Personally I think (in other words opinion based on much thought) they (the Tapas 9) have confessed to SY as to what happened, and that was why at the 10th anniversary Mark Rowley said "However Madeleine left the apartment" in other words "we know how Madeleine left the apartment".
"We know but we can't tell you since it was a confidential arrangement." That's my theory or interpretation of what he said. Then Mark Rowley said "she was abducted" That is the biggest clue she was abducted - because SY has told us that much.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2019, 09:48:52 PM
To deploy Eddie they must have believed that Madeleine had possibly died in the apartment or else why deploy a cadaver dog and if they also believed the tapas narrative, the body could only have lain in situ for less than 90 minutes.
And that's why they took and tested the family clothes after those positive alerts.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 06, 2019, 09:59:37 PM
That’s illogical. If they thought Madeleine died in the apartment they would have to suspect the parents so why would they believe the timeline?
The narrative says the McCanns left the apartment at 8.30, Gerry saw Madeleine at 9.15....so if Harrison/Grime thought it was worth bringing in a cadaver dog they must have thought that the cadaver scent may be present.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 06, 2019, 10:00:34 PM
The narrative says the McCanns left the apartment at 8.30, Gerry saw Madeleine at 9.15....so if Harrison/Grime thought it was worth bringing in a cadaver dog they must have thought that the cadaver scent may be present.
The illogical bit is where you suggested they believed the timeline whilst simultaneously believing the parents may be hiding something.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 10:16:34 PM
For a hypothesis you might suppose her clothes were in the cupboard when a corpse was concealed in there.
Only onto Kate's clothing. There is the theory Gerry carried Madeleine away, I presume she was deceased at the time, yet his clothing doesn't elicit an alert.
So did Kate move the body after it was hidden?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 06, 2019, 10:20:44 PM
Where did I say they believed the family may be hiding something?
Are you claiming you have never believed the family may be hiding something? Are you claiming you have never said you believed the family may be hiding something?
Or are you just wanting VS to find where you have said this?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 10:26:02 PM
Is it illegal to give this drug to children? Would the McCanns have been fully aware of Portuguese law on the matter?
Questions would have been asked in the event of sudden accidental death; Did she have hayfever? Did the creche staff notice her hayfever? Does she have a prescription for phenergan? Where was it dispensed? Was it obtained at the parents workplace? Was she given it (as is known amongst some healthcare staff) to keep her asleep at night (there's certainly grounds to think the twins were, IMO)? Is it safe to give to a child who will be unattended at night?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 10:39:57 PM
Certainly not. DP admits to collusion. Twice I think in his interview with LP.
“Collusion is a secret cooperation or deceitful agreement in order to deceive others, although not necessarily illegal, as a conspiracy” - do you have the cites for DP’s admissions of collusion?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 06, 2019, 10:53:09 PM
“Collusion is a secret cooperation or deceitful agreement in order to deceive others, although not necessarily illegal, as a conspiracy” - do you have the cites for DP’s admissions of collusion?
Looking forward to this.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 06, 2019, 10:58:44 PM
If they believed the parent’s narrative, the body must have emitted cadaver odour in less than 90 minutes...is that clear enough ?
You’re still missing the illogicality of your argument. How could Madeleine’s body have been in the apartment long enough to emit cadaver odour without one or both McCanns knowing she was dead? Any policeman knowing about cadaver odour would have to draw the conclusion that the McCanns were hiding something and that therefore the timeline must not be believable.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 06, 2019, 11:10:07 PM
You’re still missing the illogicality of your argument. How could Madeleine’s body have been in the apartment long enough to emit cadaver odour without one or both McCanns knowing she was dead? Any policeman knowing about cadaver odour would have to draw the conclusion that the McCanns were hiding something and that therefore the timeline must not be believable.
Do you believe Grime and Harrison thought the parents had colluded in Madeleine’s disappearance?
You have two choices. Either Grime/Harrison thought the parents guilty....so the development of cadaver odour could be from 90 minutes onwards.
Or they believed there was an abductor so the cadaver odour developed in less that 60 minutes.
Either way by suggesting the deployment of the dogs Harrison must have believed that there was enough time for cadaver odour to develop.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 11:11:25 PM
You’re still missing the illogicality of your argument. How could Madeleine’s body have been in the apartment long enough to emit cadaver odour without one or both McCanns knowing she was dead? Any policeman knowing about cadaver odour would have to draw the conclusion that the McCanns were hiding something and that therefore the timeline must not be believable.
Well of course the PJ knew the timeline was inconsistent... Anyone can see it's full of inconsistencies.... Mitchell's account of the "missing six hours" came after they were back in the UK.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 11:13:07 PM
And even after Mitchell's account for the "missing six hours" the timeline is full of glaring inconsistencies.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 06, 2019, 11:13:34 PM
You’re still missing the illogicality of your argument. How could Madeleine’s body have been in the apartment long enough to emit cadaver odour without one or both McCanns knowing she was dead? Any policeman knowing about cadaver odour would have to draw the conclusion that the McCanns were hiding something and that therefore the timeline must not be believable.
The apartment has basically had free access, right, so is it impossible for someone else to remove Madeleine before Kate turned up? I don't say someone did that but I can't rule it out either.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 11:32:08 PM
Do you believe Grime and Harrison thought the parents had colluded in Madeleine’s disappearance?
You have two choices. Either Grime/Harrison thought the parents guilty....so the development of cadaver odour could be from 90 minutes onwards.
Or they believed there was an abductor so the cadaver odour developed in less that 60 minutes.
Either way by suggesting the deployment of the dogs Harrison must have believed that there was enough time for cadaver odour to develop.
This is all arse about face. Bringing cadaver dogs into the apartment was a sign that the police doubted the McCanns’ version of events IMO. There is no way that Grime and Harrison could both believe the timeline and believe it was possible for Madeleine to have been dead in the apartment long enough for cadaver odour to develop. It just doesn’t compute. What would an abductor have been doing hanging around waiting 60 minutes for cadaver odour to develop?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 06, 2019, 11:44:20 PM
This is all arse about face. Bringing cadaver dogs into the apartment was a sign that the police doubted the McCanns’ version of events IMO. There is no way that Grime and Harrison could both believe the timeline and believe it was possible for Madeleine to have been dead in the apartment long enough for cadaver odour to develop. It just doesn’t compute. What would an abductor have been doing hanging around waiting 60 minutes for cadaver odour to develop?
So Harrison and Grime believed the parents were lying. So it wasn’t only Amaral and the PJ.
Now we get to the meat.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 06, 2019, 11:44:43 PM
So no admission of collusion then. My previous post stands. No evidence of collusion as inconsistent statements from 5 individuals demonstrates.
They compared notes and IMO Mitchell tried to undo some of the damage through press releases. Despite that their timeline from 17:00 does not stand up to scrutiny and there is time for an accident , a concealment and the development of cadaver odour IMO.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 11:49:38 PM
So Harrison and Grime believed the parents were lying. So it wasn’t only Amaral and the PJ.
Now we get to the meat.
Sausages. I don’t know about Harrison, but I would imagine Grime was briefed on the PJ’s suspicions before he carried out the alerts, which would explain alot IMO.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 11:52:20 PM
They compared notes and IMO Mitchell tried to undo some of the damage through press releases. Despite that their timeline from 17:00 does not stand up to scrutiny and there is time for an accident , a concealment and the development of cadaver odour IMO.
Not an accident, it doesn’t make sense IMO. Why is everyone covering up for them?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 06, 2019, 11:53:17 PM
Sausages. I don’t know about Harrison, but I would imagine Grime was briefed on the PJ’s suspicions before he carried out the alerts, which would explain alot IMO.
Wasn’t it Harrison who suggested that the dogs be brought in?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 06, 2019, 11:54:32 PM
So Harrison and Grime believed the parents were lying. So it wasn’t only Amaral and the PJ.
Now we get to the meat.
IMO Grime is more professional. He wouldn’t say they were “guilty” or even “lying”. IMO he kept those thoughts to himself and, as instructed, used the dogs to assist with an investigation. He left the interpretation of results up to forensic science.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 07, 2019, 12:01:31 AM
IMO Grime is more professional. He wouldn’t say they were “guilty” or even “lying”. IMO he kept those thoughts to himself and, as instructed, used the dogs to assist with an investigation. He left the interpretation of results up to forensic science.
Indeed but the parents guilt must have been a factor in their considerations when deciding whether the dogs would be useful.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 07, 2019, 12:05:13 AM
Do you believe Grime and Harrison thought the parents had colluded in Madeleine’s disappearance?
You have two choices. Either Grime/Harrison thought the parents guilty....so the development of cadaver odour could be from 90 minutes onwards.
Or they believed there was an abductor so the cadaver odour developed in less that 60 minutes.
Either way by suggesting the deployment of the dogs Harrison must have believed that there was enough time for cadaver odour to develop.
Keela was not deployed to find cadaver odour. She could, however, have located small traces of blood, missed by the Portuguese CSI team on 4th May in 5A, which opened up the possibility of foul play by person(s) unknown.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 07, 2019, 01:07:45 AM
Keela was not deployed to find cadaver odour. She could, however, have located small traces of blood, missed by the Portuguese CSI team on 4th May in 5A, which opened up the possibility of foul play by person(s) unknown.
Eddie was.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on July 07, 2019, 01:14:41 AM
The dogs' remit wasn't restricted to areas related to McCanns or Murat. There were 4 dogs used in the 2014 search which covered a far smaller area than that which Eddie alone was tasked to examine. Harrison should have known that cadaver dogs work in tandem, with one cadaver dog per handler.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 07, 2019, 03:04:50 AM
The dogs' remit wasn't restricted to areas related to McCanns or Murat. There were 4 dogs used in the 2014 search which covered a far smaller area than that which Eddie alone was tasked to examine. Harrison should have known that cadaver dogs work in tandem, with one cadaver dog per handler.
I'm not sure I know what you mean by this: Harrison should have known that cadaver dogs work in tandem, with one cadaver dog per handler" Could you explain it?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 07, 2019, 07:06:37 AM
Indeed but the parents guilt must have been a factor in their considerations when deciding whether the dogs would be useful.
And why shouldn't the parents guilt be a factor. This was very early in the investigation when every possibility should be explored... It's totally routine. It doesn't mean Harrison thought the parents were guilty... It means quite rightly he was considering all possibilities. Now 12 years later with no evidence against the parents it seems this question has been answered
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 07, 2019, 07:25:38 AM
In so far as I understood, the dogs were initially brought in to search the surrounding area, suggested by Harrison, and that 5a was an after thought.
I have read something to this effect but wouldn't know where to start looking.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: barrier on July 07, 2019, 09:03:33 AM
In so far as I understood, the dogs were initially brought in to search the surrounding area, suggested by Harrison, and that 5a was an after thought.
I have read something to this effect but wouldn't know where to start looking.
Harrison doesn't make it sound like an after thought.
Re Visiting Previously Searched Areas.
In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.
Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.
This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.
McCann's Apartment.
The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 07, 2019, 09:16:05 AM
Harrison doesn't make it sound like an after thought.
Re Visiting Previously Searched Areas.
In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.
Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.
This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.
McCann's Apartment.
The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
I dont see why it should be considered significant if the mccans wre considered supects in the early days ..its normal police practice...but i think its clear they are not considered suspects now
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 07, 2019, 09:16:46 AM
He also suggests taking thr dogs into Murat’s house, and the Tapas group’s apartments. Clearly he was open minded, not intent on focusing in on the McCanns solely.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: barrier on July 07, 2019, 09:23:28 AM
I dont see why it should be considered significant if the mccans wre considered supects in the early days ..its normal police practice...but i think its clear they are not considered suspects now
Eleanor thought 5a was an after thought,it doesn't seem so.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 07, 2019, 09:28:42 AM
He also suggests taking thr dogs into Murat’s house, and the Tapas group’s apartments. Clearly he was open minded, not intent on focusing in on the McCanns solely.
But why was he solely looking at the possibility of a murder?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 07, 2019, 10:20:52 AM
He also suggests taking thr dogs into Murat’s house, and the Tapas group’s apartments. Clearly he was open minded, not intent on focusing in on the McCanns solely.
Murat was an arguido therefore Harrison would have had no choice. The parents, at that stage weren’t.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 07, 2019, 11:10:36 AM
Harrison is not thinking in terms of who did it, but just where to look. Well why not? I see a bag in a wardrobe and the same bag doesn't show the next day.
Show us a picture of this bag.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 07, 2019, 11:43:36 AM
Harrison is not thinking in terms of who did it, but just where to look. Well why not? I see a bag in a wardrobe and the same bag doesn't show the next day.
You think the police photographed a wardrobe with a bag in it that contained the body of the girl they were looking for?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 07, 2019, 11:48:46 AM
Are you saying you have never studied this before? You are not just wasting my time for we have discussed this many times over the last three years? (http://fakedabduction.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/tennisbagwardrobe.jpg)
Are you saying you have never studied this before? You are not just wasting my time for we have discussed this many times over the last three years? (http://fakedabduction.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/tennisbagwardrobe.jpg) Sillier things have happened.
Is that photo in the PJ Files?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 07, 2019, 12:06:54 PM
It is interesting that there are cupboards above the wardrobe too. I have never been aware of those before. Were you aware there were cupboards above the wardrobes?
They are visible in the official photo too. (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2311.jpg)
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 07, 2019, 12:22:46 PM
Are you saying you have never studied this before? You are not just wasting my time for we have discussed this many times over the last three years? (http://fakedabduction.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/tennisbagwardrobe.jpg) Sillier things have happened.
I don’t see a tennis bag.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 07, 2019, 12:26:41 PM
it is a bag of some sort that is there in the night photo but not there the next day. That is all I'm saying.
G-unit that first photo was from this forum many years ago http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2038.msg65574#msg65574
Where did Albertini get the photo from?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 07, 2019, 12:31:37 PM
The point I'm making is unless we have confirmation that that bag was opened in front of the PJ we can't be sure it was inspected before it was removed from the apartment.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2038.msg66092#msg66092 makes a similar point.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 07, 2019, 12:50:50 PM
The point I'm making is unless we have confirmation that that bag was opened in front of the PJ we can't be sure it was inspected before it was removed from the apartment.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2038.msg66092#msg66092 makes a similar point.
If Madeleine was in that bag then she definitely wasn’t in Smaithman’s arms so I don’t think most sceptics will go along with your hypothesis. I certainly don’t because a) what bag b) what were its dimensions c) no one invites people to look for a child in their apartment that is lying dead in a bag in the wardrobe unless they are stark staring bonkers.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 07, 2019, 01:01:39 PM
So having seen all the evidence that the PJ at the time (July 2007 ) had he seems to have accepted that cadaver odour had enough time to develop.
That’s all we really need to know.
If he’d dome his research he would have known that it takes a minimum of 85 minutes to develop and so that would no doubt have been factored into any conclusions he may have drawn. Do we know what these were btw?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 07, 2019, 01:14:51 PM
If he’d dome his research he would have known that it takes a minimum of 85 minutes to develop and so that would no doubt have been factored into any conclusions he may have drawn. Do we know what these were btw?
I’ve made my point. No need to debate further.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 07, 2019, 01:15:19 PM
If he’d dome his research he would have known that it takes a minimum of 85 minutes to develop and so that would no doubt have been factored into any conclusions he may have drawn. Do we know what these were btw?
It starts to develop after 4 minutes. It’s that dogs haven’t been shown to reliably alert to it until at least 85 minutes.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 07, 2019, 01:51:01 PM
Are you saying you have never studied this before? You are not just wasting my time for we have discussed this many times over the last three years? (http://fakedabduction.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/tennisbagwardrobe.jpg) Sillier things have happened.
I am trying to make a connection. bag in cupboard- family asked to move out of the room- bag is gone.
Conclusion bag is use by family to remove 'stuff'. And the idea that MBM is in that bag when the police are called is hysterical.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 07, 2019, 03:12:01 PM
Are you saying you have never studied this before? You are not just wasting my time for we have discussed this many times over the last three years? (http://fakedabduction.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/tennisbagwardrobe.jpg) Sillier things have happened.
Can anyone tell ne where the photo came from?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 07, 2019, 03:18:13 PM
If Madeleine was in that bag then she definitely wasn’t in Smaithman’s arms so I don’t think most sceptics will go along with your hypothesis. I certainly don’t because a) what bag b) what were its dimensions c) no one invites people to look for a child in their apartment that is lying dead in a bag in the wardrobe unless they are stark staring bonkers.
You are at least trying to understand the Prank Theory. I have never said it is Madeleine in the bag. Remember in my theory she wakes and wanders and then gets taken away.
So in my the theory Madeleine is not in the bag, but someone else is, the driver of the child replacement. There is this unknown child in the bag. So someone must know the deceased child is in the apartment, but we don't know who and I suspect it wasn't Kate.
But then the deceased child goes missing from the apartment, possibly after the PJ have locked up for the night. Who removed it, I wouldn't like to guess, but if the rooms were locked they'd need a key.
So in my theory there is plenty of time for cadaver odour to develop, but cadaver odour is species specific, and not identifiable to a specific person. Human cadaver odour, located in 5A, does not imply it came from Madeleine.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 07, 2019, 06:51:44 PM
Surely it must be leaked from a PJ source. Without a doubt it is the McCann's apartment G5A It is a genuine photo of the scene. It was posted on line by a member of the forum!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 07, 2019, 06:54:47 PM
You are at least trying to understand the Prank Theory. I have never said it is Madeleine in the bag. Remember in my theory she wakes and wanders and then gets taken away.
So in my the theory Madeleine is not in the bag, but someone else is, the driver of the child replacement. There is this unknown child in the bag. So someone must know the deceased child is in the apartment, but we don't know who and I suspect it wasn't Kate.
But then the deceased child goes missing from the apartment, possibly after the PJ have locked up for the night. Who removed it, I wouldn't like to guess, but if the rooms were locked they'd need a key.
So in my theory there is plenty of time for cadaver odour to develop, but cadaver odour is species specific, and not identifiable to a specific person. Human cadaver odour, located in 5A, does not imply it came from Madeleine.
Sorry no. Just no.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 07, 2019, 06:55:50 PM
Surely it must be leaked from a PJ source. Without a doubt it is the McCann's apartment. It is a genuine photo of the scene. It was posted on line by a member of the forum!
5a? I thought it was their rental accommodation, but What do I know? I only got 43% in my Grade 4 McCann Accomodations exam.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 07, 2019, 07:00:15 PM
It is not an easy theory to get your head around. But your last few post show me that your ideas are a bit confused. Where did that photo come from, what scene, who took it, and how did it end up on the UK Justice forum?
It is not an easy theory to get your head around. But your last few post show me that your ideas are a bit confused. Where did that photo come from, what scene, who took it, and how did it end up on the UK Justice forum? Well there is a PJ photo showing the exact same bag.
I don’t know, where did you get the photo from?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 07, 2019, 07:09:35 PM
All been done to death on here before, what a surprise...
I Googled it, but I've just found the same part of a photo (it has been trimmed) with Kate McCann's initials on it, so it is likely to be the photo presented to her during her arguido interviews. (https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TfJMfyP5Xo0/U5TUpZW9_AI/AAAAAAAALAQ/UnESd3VLms8/s1600/10VOLUMEXaPage2563.jpg)
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 07, 2019, 07:37:40 PM
" When asked about the contents of the wardrobe in his room that can be seen in the photographs, he says that on top is a suitcase and below a pile of dirty clothes that he cannot make out. This wardrobe was opened to look for Madeleine."
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 01:35:29 AM
" When asked about the contents of the wardrobe in his room that can be seen in the photographs, he says that on top is a suitcase and below a pile of dirty clothes that he cannot make out. This wardrobe was opened to look for Madeleine."
So no one looked into the suitcase according to Gerry.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 08, 2019, 01:40:55 AM
It is rather hard to describe but try and picture this. I think there was the intention to play a trick on Kate, for the friends thought it so wrong to have let Madeleine come to the Tapas if she wanted to.
So they were going to emphasise the risk of being interfered with. What degree I have not been able to determine. There was plan 1, but something comes up and the emphasis can be made even stronger so they go with plan 2.
Someone delivers a cadaver in a bag to the McCann's apartment.
But the people playing the prank don't realise Madeleine has been woken by an earlier attempted burglary, she is hiding when Matt comes in, and takes off when someone else comes in to set up the scene.
The priority then becomes one of locating Madeleine and the scene is not set, and the cadaver hence is left in the apartment.
Kate doesn't know about the corpse and doesn't think of looking in the suitcase.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 02:16:58 AM
How could Madeleine have placed herself in the suitcase on the shelf?
It is not Madeleine in the suitcase. As I say Madeleine takes off out the front door, the person who scared her, closes the front door and goes back out through the patio door closing the gates behind them.
The person looks for Madeleine but she isn't found. Kate does her check and they all join in the search for her.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 08, 2019, 02:20:49 AM
It is rather hard to describe but try and picture this. I think there was the intention to play a trick on Kate, for the friends thought it so wrong to have let Madeleine come to the Tapas if she wanted to.
So they were going to emphasise the risk of being interfered with. What degree I have not been able to determine. There was plan 1, but something comes up and the emphasis can be made even stronger so they go with plan 2.
Someone delivers a cadaver in a bag to the McCann's apartment.
But the people playing the prank don't realise Madeleine has been woken by an earlier attempted burglary, she is hiding when Matt comes in, and takes off when someone else comes in to set up the scene.
The priority then becomes one of locating Madeleine and the scene is not set, and the cadaver hence is left in the apartment.
Kate doesn't know about the corpse and doesn't think of looking in the suitcase.
Nope - I can't picture that happening. Who goes round delivering corpses as part of a prank? &^&*%
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on July 08, 2019, 02:22:18 AM
It is not Madeleine in the suitcase. As I say Madeleine takes off out the front door, the person who scared her, closes the front door and goes back out through the patio door closing the gates behind them.
The person looks for Madeleine but she isn't found. Kate does her check and they all join in the search for her.
So who removed the suitcase containing the hypothetical cadaver from 5A?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 02:23:38 AM
So who removed the suitcase containing the hypothetical cadaver from 5A?
That is the mystery that needs explaining doesn't it.
Goncalo blames the McCanns. (I'm sure he's convinced that it was Madeleine in the bag and that is when they got her out of the apartment.)
But as time has gone on I think there was a window of opportunity when the McCanns go up stairs to the Payne's apartment and the PJ leave and lock up G5A. Someone with a key could have come in and taken it out.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: misty on July 08, 2019, 02:52:12 AM
That is the mystery that needs explaining doesn't it.
Goncalo blames the McCanns. (I'm sure he's convinced that it was Madeleine in the bag and that is when they got her out of the apartment.)
But as time has gone on I think there was a window of opportunity when the McCanns go up stairs to the Payne's apartment and the PJ leave and lock up G5A. Someone with a key could have come in and taken it out.
The CSI officers didn't leave 5A until 4am. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BARREIRAS.htm Why would someone risk leaving a corpse in a suitcase to be found by searchers anyway? Who would have been hanging around until after 4am, hidden in plain sight, with a key to facilitate access to 5A?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 05:23:35 AM
The CSI officers didn't leave 5A until 4am. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BARREIRAS.htm Why would someone risk leaving a corpse in a suitcase to be found by searchers anyway? Who would have been hanging around until after 4am, hidden in plain sight, with a key to facilitate access to 5A?
I don't know but they wouldn't want to go in there while the PJ are still there IMO. If it is a matter of spending time in custody it probably is worth your while to wait till the coast is clear. Didn't the PJ go out to a bar before they went home?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 08, 2019, 07:24:55 AM
It is rather hard to describe but try and picture this. I think there was the intention to play a trick on Kate, for the friends thought it so wrong to have let Madeleine come to the Tapas if she wanted to.
So they were going to emphasise the risk of being interfered with. What degree I have not been able to determine. There was plan 1, but something comes up and the emphasis can be made even stronger so they go with plan 2.
Someone delivers a cadaver in a bag to the McCann's apartment.
But the people playing the prank don't realise Madeleine has been woken by an earlier attempted burglary, she is hiding when Matt comes in, and takes off when someone else comes in to set up the scene.
The priority then becomes one of locating Madeleine and the scene is not set, and the cadaver hence is left in the apartment.
Kate doesn't know about the corpse and doesn't think of looking in the suitcase.
Dominos are doing stuff crust cadavers now are they? Who knew!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 08, 2019, 07:38:23 AM
It is rather hard to describe but try and picture this. I think there was the intention to play a trick on Kate, for the friends thought it so wrong to have let Madeleine come to the Tapas if she wanted to.
So they were going to emphasise the risk of being interfered with. What degree I have not been able to determine. There was plan 1, but something comes up and the emphasis can be made even stronger so they go with plan 2.
Someone delivers a cadaver in a bag to the McCann's apartment.
But the people playing the prank don't realise Madeleine has been woken by an earlier attempted burglary, she is hiding when Matt comes in, and takes off when someone else comes in to set up the scene.
The priority then becomes one of locating Madeleine and the scene is not set, and the cadaver hence is left in the apartment.
Kate doesn't know about the corpse and doesn't think of looking in the suitcase.
Tell me you're still qualified to work as a vet. Please.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 08, 2019, 08:56:36 AM
If I was asked to explain the dog alerts, even under such supposed stress and duress, I wouldn't be scratching my head, coming up with an explanation - I'd be telling them to **** off, I haven't a clue so stop asking stupid ******* questions. If there's nothing to explain, don't explain.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 08, 2019, 09:03:32 AM
Its clear from the Shannon Matthews case that cadaver odour is capable of being transferred on items; how then can it be ruled that this didn't happen in MM's case?
At some stage grandparents lived at 5A; grandparents by definition on count down and heading towards D day.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 08, 2019, 09:16:46 AM
If I was asked to explain the dog alerts, even under such supposed stress and duress, I wouldn't be scratching my head, coming up with an explanation - I'd be telling them to **** off, I haven't a clue so stop asking stupid ******* questions. If there's nothing to explain, don't explain.
Which of course is what KM does as soon as she is made an arguido
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 09:22:05 AM
If I was asked to explain the dog alerts, even under such supposed stress and duress, I wouldn't be scratching my head, coming up with an explanation - I'd be telling them to **** off, I haven't a clue so stop asking stupid ******* questions. If there's nothing to explain, don't explain.
That's what Kate did... She never came up with any excuse
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 08, 2019, 09:23:40 AM
Its clear from the Shannon Matthews case that cadaver odour is capable of being transferred on items; how then can it be ruled that this didn't happen in MM's case?
At some stage grandparents lived at 5A; grandparents by definition on count down and heading towards D day.
Thank you for your cheery words of inspiration.
(&^&
No dog alert in 4G, where the McCanns lived for 2 months.
Magic transference?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 09:25:48 AM
If alerts in 5a, were, due to transference from the McCann's handling a cadaver at a later date... Then contamination would be everywhere... Not just a couple of places
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 08, 2019, 09:31:32 AM
If I was asked to explain the dog alerts, even under such supposed stress and duress, I wouldn't be scratching my head, coming up with an explanation - I'd be telling them to **** off, I haven't a clue so stop asking stupid ******* questions. If there's nothing to explain, don't explain.
Watch your language. The Word Censure isn't enough. I will delete any further examples.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 08, 2019, 09:48:41 AM
No dog alert in 4G, where the McCanns lived for 2 months.
Magic transference?
8(0(*
But we can see in the SM case the transference involved items of furniture.
Also we don't know how the dogs might have reacted had then been entered into Mrs Fenn's who was widowed.
I would expect a scientific approach to have been taken ie enter the dogs into every apartment in say block 5 and then carry out checks on any alerted to by way of history of items and people traffic to determine are the dogs alerting to something relevant to the investigation or odour residue from some innocent explanation.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 08, 2019, 10:07:31 AM
But we can see in the SM case the transference involved items of furniture.
Also we don't know how the dogs might have reacted had then been entered into Mrs Fenn's who was widowed.
I would expect a scientific approach to have been taken ie enter the dogs into every apartment in say block 5 and then carry out checks on any alerted to by way of history of items and people traffic to determine are the dogs alerting to something relevant to the investigation or odour residue from some innocent explanation.
As the case wanders over block 5, block 4, Casa Liliana and the homes of four other arguidos, what would be your search parameters?
I have reason to believe a car in the family of Sergey Malinka was included in a dog search (July 2014).
Another arguido was living in LuzTur when MBM disappeared. That's the tallest 'block' in Luz by far. Should every apartment inside have been doggie-searched?
Your strategy has to take into account that laws in Portugal do not allow mass random searches on the off-chance, much as per Inglaterra.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 08, 2019, 10:14:14 AM
As the case wanders over block 5, block 4, Casa Liliana and the homes of four other arguidos, what would be your search parameters?
I have reason to believe a car in the family of Sergey Malinka was included in a dog search (July 2014).
Another arguido was living in LuzTur when MBM disappeared. That's the tallest 'block' in Luz by far. Should every apartment inside have been doggie-searched?
Your strategy has to take into account that laws in Portugal do not allow mass random searches on the off-chance, much as per Inglaterra.
I don't know anything about Portuguese law or investigatory powers/limitations but it seems to me that if investigators/prosecutors wanted to use this sort of evidence in a court of law then defence counsel would expect to see a control test that rules out other factors?
In effect I think this does happen as the alerts in themselves are meaningless unless they can be corroborated with other evidence which is usually forensic in nature?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 10:23:52 AM
I don't know anything about Portuguese law or investigatory powers/limitations but it seems to me that if investigators/prosecutors wanted to use this sort of evidence in a court of law then defence counsel would expect to see a control test that rules out other factors?
In effect I think this does happen as the alerts in themselves are meaningless unless they can be corroborated with other evidence which is usually forensic in nature?
According to Grime in his statement as no remains, were found the, alerts cannot be corroborated
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 08, 2019, 10:30:32 AM
I don't know anything about Portuguese law or investigatory powers/limitations but it seems to me that if investigators/prosecutors wanted to use this sort of evidence in a court of law then defence counsel would expect to see a control test that rules out other factors?
In effect I think this does happen as the alerts in themselves are meaningless unless they can be corroborated with other evidence which is usually forensic in nature?
OK. I have no reason to believe the judicial forces expected or wanted to use the dog alerts in a court of law.
I think both Grime and Harrison both stated the alerts had to be corroborated by forensics.
So the forensics would have gone to trial, not the dog alerts, the handler Grime, or the search adviser Harrison.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 08, 2019, 10:33:57 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-fs2OrXUAAtglP.png)
Molly died in 2018.
Prosecutors have introduced hundreds of pages of training records and certifications to validate the dog’s reliability.
Corcoran has worked as a full-time patrol dog handler for about nine years. She testified Thursday that in unrelated cases between 2008 and 2013, Molly made at least six alerts to the odor of human remains when no remains were found. But the dog’s alerts were later validated when suspects confessed bodies had been present where Molly marked.
https://durangoherald.com/articles/283356
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 10:38:40 AM
Prosecutors have introduced hundreds of pages of training records and certifications to validate the dog’s reliability.
Corcoran has worked as a full-time patrol dog handler for about nine years. She testified Thursday that in unrelated cases between 2008 and 2013, Molly made at least six alerts to the odor of human remains when no remains were found. But the dog’s alerts were later validated when suspects confessed bodies had been present where Molly marked.
https://durangoherald.com/articles/283356
That's called anecdotal evidence and is not accepted by science.... It's like people claiming that they've smoked 60 a day and never developed lung cancer..
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 08, 2019, 10:51:19 AM
It's called circumstantial evidence.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2019, 10:51:48 AM
OK. I have no reason to believe the judicial forces expected or wanted to use the dog alerts in a court of law.
I think both Grime and Harrison both stated the alerts had to be corroborated by forensics.
So the forensics would have gone to trial, not the dog alerts, the handler Grime, or the search adviser Harrison.
Well I guess the alerts would go to trial in terms of indicative but this would then need to be supported by robust forensic evidence otherwise how do you rule out innocent contamination as evidenced by the Shannon Matthews case. Realistically it would be impossible for investigators to produce a history of every item to rule out contamination.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 10:58:06 AM
Criminal justice does though, which is the important aspect.
Not Re the issue we were discussing which is the evidence to support the alerts... That should be scientific
If you are saying the court will accept alerts that have no basis in scientific testing. Then that's a, weakness in the court system and will eventually be challenged
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 11:42:52 AM
If I was asked to explain the dog alerts, even under such supposed stress and duress, I wouldn't be scratching my head, coming up with an explanation - I'd be telling them to **** off, I haven't a clue so stop asking stupid ******* questions. If there's nothing to explain, don't explain.
But in the case against Amaral, one of the undisputed facts were the dog alerts. I have never heard the McCanns say there never was a cadaver in the apartment. To me a doctor and a cadaver go hand in hand. Patients die. A doctor certifies death.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 11:53:45 AM
If alerts in 5a, were, due to transference from the McCann's handling a cadaver at a later date... Then contamination would be everywhere... Not just a couple of places
Have you got that right? Should it be "earlier date"?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 11:57:37 AM
Later date meaning after 3 may... Yes I've got it right
OK I'll put that in to your original statement;
"If alerts in 5a, were, due to transference from the McCann's handling a cadaver at a later date... Then contamination would be everywhere... Not just a couple of places"
If alerts in 5a, were, due to transference from the McCann's handling a cadaver at a later date after 3 may... Then contamination would be everywhere... Not just a couple of places"
Still doesn't make sense, but I think I know what you mean. This is what I think you are saying: "If alerts in 5a were due to transference from the McCann's handling cadavers at an earlier date... Then cadaver contamination would be everywhere... Not just in a couple of places"
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 08, 2019, 12:27:40 PM
Its clear from the Shannon Matthews case that cadaver odour is capable of being transferred on items; how then can it be ruled that this didn't happen in MM's case?
At some stage grandparents lived at 5A; grandparents by definition on count down and heading towards D day.
Now I’ve heard most ridiculous excuses to explain the cadaver alerts in my long years of interest in this case but cadaver emitting grandparents are certainly a new one on me.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 12:29:33 PM
"If alerts in 5a, were, due to transference from the McCann's handling a cadaver at a later date... Then contamination would be everywhere... Not just a couple of places"
If alerts in 5a, were, due to transference from the McCann's handling a cadaver at a later date after 3 may... Then contamination would be everywhere... Not just a couple of places"
Still doesn't make sense, but I think I know what you mean. This is what I think you are saying: "If alerts in 5a were due to transference from the McCann's handling cadavers at an earlier date... Then cadaver contamination would be everywhere... Not just in a couple of places"
I'll explain later
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 12:34:15 PM
Later date meaning after 3 may... Yes I've got it right
They werer kicked out of 5A on the night of the 3rd so it can't be something done at a later date after the 3rd May 2007.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 12:44:45 PM
SIL - you said recently "Assuming this is correct, woke and wandered has become a tad less likely." I don't see the logic building up to that conclusion.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2019, 01:06:01 PM
Now I’ve heard most ridiculous excuses to explain the cadaver alerts in my long years of interest in this case but cadaver emitting grandparents are certainly a new one on me.
Apologies for the confusion I was meaning that grandparents are usually by definition older and therefore more likely to have passed away in 5A or items that were in contact with a corpse to have been present in 5A.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 08, 2019, 01:11:09 PM
Apologies for the confusion I was meaning that grandparents are usually by definition older and therefore more likely to have passed away in 5A or items that were in contact with a corpse to have been present in 5A.
How do we square away the dogs not alerting elsewhere? What's the chances of the dogs only alerting in the apartment a child went missing from, but none of the adjacent ones - the Grandparents rule has to be applied equally.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2019, 01:11:43 PM
I think John and his bunch of motley moderators need to get a grip and stop alienating the very people who keep this forum going.
That's a bit harsh imo. We are after all unpaid volunteers. How long do you think the forum would survive and/or went into meltdown if we didn't have some form of moderating? Why not start up a thread as to how you think the forum could be improved for the benefit of the majority?
As I see it there are too few posters here who are able to remain neutral or prepared to see it from both sides ie McCanns v some unknown abductor.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 01:13:42 PM
They werer kicked out of 5A on the night of the 3rd so it can't be something done at a later date after the 3rd May 2007.
No time for cadaver odour to develop ..posters have suggested the contamination was due to handling the cadaver at a later date... Contamination if clothes... No explanation fir contamination of 5 a
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 08, 2019, 01:14:36 PM
That's a bit harsh imo. We are after all unpaid volunteers. How long do you think the forum would survive and/or went into meltdown if we didn't have some form of moderating? Why not start up a thread as to how you think the forum could be improved for the benefit of the majority?
As I see it there are too few posters here who are able to remain neutral or prepared to see it from both sides ie McCanns v some unknown abductor.
I try to remain as impartial as I can, or at least try to see both sides. But it would seem that certain 'supporter' mods are more than happy to moderate 'sceptics'. Which probably exacerbates the issue.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 01:16:11 PM
That's a bit harsh imo. We are after all unpaid volunteers. How long do you think the forum would survive and/or went into meltdown if we didn't have some form of moderating? Why not start up a thread as to how you think the forum could be improved for the benefit of the majority?
As I see it there are too few posters here who are able to remain neutral or prepared to see it from both sides ie McCanns v some unknown abductor.
How can you see it from both sides when you've said it's highly unlikely the McCann's are involved...
There's moderation and there over moderation
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 08, 2019, 01:16:28 PM
Now I’ve heard most ridiculous excuses to explain the cadaver alerts in my long years of interest in this case but cadaver emitting grandparents are certainly a new one on me.
Ridiculous excuses? So someone's opinion about why Eddie alerted is ridiculous to you is it. An expert are we?
Grime himself said Eddie could have been alerting to ancient scents.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 01:17:57 PM
I try to remain as impartial as I can, or at least try to see both sides. But it would seem that certain 'supporter' mods are more than happy to moderate 'sceptics'. Which probably exacerbates the issue.
I could say the same from my point if view. .I could say a lot more but it's counterproductive... I agree with you Re over moderation ...I don't find any if your posts particularly offensive
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2019, 01:18:23 PM
How do we square away the dogs not alerting elsewhere? What's the chances of the dogs only alerting in the apartment a child went missing from, but none of the adjacent ones - the Grandparents rule has to be applied equally.
Do you know for a fact that Grandparents lived in any of the other apartments? When I say lived I mean full-time as opposed to a holiday rental? I believe at one time a set of Grandparents resided at 5A full-time?
I would want to see the dogs entered into a representative sample of apartments and then if they only alerted in 5A put 5A, people traffic and possessions under the microscope to rule out contamination. Even then where's the follow through forensic evidence that MM came to harm in 5A. The human cellular material collected was inconclusive. I rather think if those who believe this amounts to evidence of anything may not agree it the finger was being pointed at them or a loved one.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Lace on July 08, 2019, 01:20:01 PM
How do we square away the dogs not alerting elsewhere? What's the chances of the dogs only alerting in the apartment a child went missing from, but none of the adjacent ones - the Grandparents rule has to be applied equally.
If Grime had called Eddie back the same amount of times as he did in 5a, then Eddie may have alerted to something in the other apartments. He was rushed through them.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 08, 2019, 01:20:41 PM
Do you know for a fact that Grandparents lived in any of the other apartments? When I say lived I mean full-time as opposed to a holiday rental? I believe at one time a set of Grandparents resided at 5A full-time?
I would want to see the dogs entered into a representative sample of apartments and then if they only alerted in 5A put 5A, people traffic and possessions under the microscope to rule out contamination. Even then where's the follow through forensic evidence that MM came to harm in 5A. The human cellular material collected was inconclusive. I rather think if those who believe this amounts to evidence of anything may not agree it the finger was being pointed at them or a loved one.
OK, re-read it. Got it. Conversely, if dogs were barking their heads off in that apartment I'd want to know why.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 01:21:52 PM
Do you know for a fact that Grandparents lived in any of the other apartments? When I say lived I mean full-time as opposed to a holiday rental? I believe at one time a set of Grandparents resided at 5A full-time?
I would want to see the dogs entered into a representative sample of apartments and then if they only alerted in 5A put 5A, people traffic and possessions under the microscope to rule out contamination. Even then where's the follow through forensic evidence that MM came to harm in 5A. The human cellular material collected was inconclusive. I rather think if those who believe this amounts to evidence of anything may not agree it the finger was being pointed at them or a loved one.
The alerts were supposed to be basically meaningless as regards, evidence... It was the evidence the dogs detected that is important... Grime has now moved the goalposts
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2019, 01:27:11 PM
I try to remain as impartial as I can, or at least try to see both sides. But it would seem that certain 'supporter' mods are more than happy to moderate 'sceptics'. Which probably exacerbates the issue.
Tbh I've been focusing more on trying to get up to speed with what the case is all about rather than this sceptic/supporter thing. Some here seem to be absolute zealots and I rarely bother reading/responding to their posts.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2019, 01:30:03 PM
The alerts were supposed to be basically meaningless as regards, evidence... It was the evidence the dogs detected that is important... Grime has now moved the goalposts
Can we not all move on then? The alerts and the LCN DNA it seems are meaningless? If they weren't then the authorities would pursue? If others disagree so be it. You will not convince everyone to view the various aspects of the case through your eyes so why bother?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 08, 2019, 01:31:17 PM
Tbh I've been focusing more on trying to get up to speed with what the case is all about rather than this sceptic/supporter thing. Some here seem to be absolute zealots and I rarely bother reading/responding to their posts.
That's my tactic; keep on scrolling, you know what it's going to say.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 01:40:38 PM
Can we not all move on then? The alerts and the LCN DNA it seems are meaningless? If they weren't then the authorities would pursue? If others disagree so be it. You will not convince everyone to view the various aspects of the case through your eyes so why bother?
Why bother... So if posters continually promote the alerts, as evidence then you think I shouldn't respond... This is a discussion forum....we, are here to discuss... If you don't like it don't discuss... But don't tell me not to post.. Simple
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 08, 2019, 01:44:12 PM
It is a Mirror Forum Myth. Common sense should tell us that.
Indeed it is a myth possibly created to 'back up' the dog alerts which needed something ... anything ... to substantiate them as there was nothing else. It isn't heard as often now as it once was and has been discussed on the forum before ... I think for the sake of accuracy it is worth reiterating the fact of the matter particularly as Paulo Pereira Cristóvão was one of the originators and another was also an associate of Amaral, Hernâni Carvalho.
Kate never said it ... Carvalho and Cristóvão did.
On the tv monitor, Eddie can be seen sniffing over Kate's clothing and marking that it had been in contact with a cadaver. The reactions of the dogs in the vehicle that had been used by Madeleine's parents can also be seen. -
At the medical center where I work, in England, before we came on holidays, people died whom I had been in contact with... you must be forgetting that I am a doctor...
- Yes you are - João Tavares replies - and the death rate at the medical center where you work twice a week is extremely high...
- It's true - the arguida replies.
A Estrela de Madeleine … de Paulo Pereira Cristóvão … Edição/reimpressão: 2008
Launched in Portugal March 19th 2008 …Páginas: 160 …
Editor: Editorial Presença … ISBN: 9789722338905 … Coleção: Grandes Narrativas
There are allegations the dogs detected cadaver odors on Kate's jeans and Cuddlecat. The odor on jeans is justified by Kate by saying she was in contact with six cadavers before she left her 2 day per week job in a general clinic in Leicester.
Maddie 129 … de Hernâni Carvalho, Luís Maia … Edição/reimpressão: 2007 … Launched in Portugal November 9th 2007 … Editor: Prime Books … ISBN: 9789898028617
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 01:51:46 PM
For those who haven't been following the case fir that long.. In 2007 the alerts, were considered meaningless but Grime had now moved the goalposts as was seen in the lane trial..
According to Grime the alerts, are no longer meaningless but evidential
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2019, 01:54:08 PM
Why bother... So if posters continually promote the alerts, as evidence then you think I shouldn't respond... This is a discussion forum....we, are here to discuss... If you don't like it don't discuss... But don't tell me not to post.. Simple
Firstly where have I told you or anyone what to post or what not to post? Its up to posters which posts they choose to respond to.
I think a lot comes down to a poster's objectives ie you claim some continually promote the alerts as evidence and you feel the need to want to respond by definition continually. What do you hope to achieve by this? It's extremely unlikely you will convert those who you claim continually promote the alerts as evidence to your way of thinking. How does going round in circles assist with MM's disappearance? Do you think lawyers and forensic scientists believe there's any evidence against the McCanns? The fact that some posters on a forum or some other place think otherwise so what?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 08, 2019, 02:01:50 PM
That's a bit harsh imo. We are after all unpaid volunteers. How long do you think the forum would survive and/or went into meltdown if we didn't have some form of moderating? Why not start up a thread as to how you think the forum could be improved for the benefit of the majority?
As I see it there are too few posters here who are able to remain neutral or prepared to see it from both sides ie McCanns v some unknown abductor.
As I see it there are far too many mods who are partisan to make any moderation fair.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 02:05:11 PM
Firstly where have I told you or anyone what to post or what not to post? Its up to posters which posts they choose to respond to.
I think a lot comes down to a poster's objectives ie you claim some continually promote the alerts as evidence and you feel the need to want to respond by definition continually. What do you hope to achieve by this? It's extremely unlikely you will convert those who you claim continually promote the alerts as evidence to your way of thinking. How does going round in circles assist with MM's disappearance? Do you think lawyers and forensic scientists believe there's any evidence against the McCanns? The fact that some posters on a forum or some other place think otherwise so what?
What do you hope to acheive by posting...do you think you can help solve the case.. I think that's plain daft.. I post because I like a good argument. ...that's, all
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 02:06:29 PM
As there are more mods who support the parents, or at the very least are not convinced of their guilt than there are mods who believe they may be involved.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 08, 2019, 02:19:04 PM
Firstly where have I told you or anyone what to post or what not to post? Its up to posters which posts they choose to respond to.
I think a lot comes down to a poster's objectives ie you claim some continually promote the alerts as evidence and you feel the need to want to respond by definition continually. What do you hope to achieve by this? It's extremely unlikely you will convert those who you claim continually promote the alerts as evidence to your way of thinking. How does going round in circles assist with MM's disappearance? Do you think lawyers and forensic scientists believe there's any evidence against the McCanns? The fact that some posters on a forum or some other place think otherwise so what?
I think the indicative word in your post is "respond".
Davel is not making the allegations many of which are of a pejorative nature ... he is responding. So why single him out for criticism?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 02:21:37 PM
As there are more mods who support the parents, or at the very least are not convinced of their guilt than there are mods who believe they may be involved.
Mods who support the parents don't always, support posters, who support the parents
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2019, 02:41:11 PM
I think the indicative word in your post is "respond".
I was quoting Davel:
"Why bother... So if posters continually promote the alerts, as evidence then you think I shouldn't respond... This is a discussion forum....we, are here to discuss... If you don't like it don't discuss... But don't tell me not to post.. Simple".
What do you hope to acheive by posting...do you think you can help solve the case.. I think that's plain daft.. I post because I like a good argument. ...that's, all
Why do you believe it is daft that posters on an internet forum are unable to assist in solving cases? What evidence do you have for this?
You might like a "good argument" but compared with other boards I've posted on the arguments here aren't good.
What's your definition of a "good argument"?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on July 08, 2019, 02:51:05 PM
What do you hope to acheive by posting...do you think you can help solve the case.. I think that's plain daft.. I post because I like a good argument. ...that's, all
You mean you are of an argumentative nature ?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 08, 2019, 02:58:14 PM
"Why bother... So if posters continually promote the alerts, as evidence then you think I shouldn't respond... This is a discussion forum....we, are here to discuss... If you don't like it don't discuss... But don't tell me not to post.. Simple".
I think a lot comes down to a poster's objectives ie you claim some continually promote the alerts as evidence and you feel the need to want to respond by definition continually.
What do you hope to achieve by this? It's extremely unlikely you will convert those who you claim continually promote the alerts as evidence to your way of thinking. How does going round in circles assist with MM's disappearance? Do you think lawyers and forensic scientists believe there's any evidence against the McCanns? The fact that some posters on a forum or some other place think otherwise so what?
Such is the nature of the "discussion" which has been taking place since Madeleine disappeared. The name of the game is repetition and going round in circles. As far as I know Davel is not producing videos and podcasts specifically to proselytize his opinions on others ... there are very many who do and in my opinion an intelligent well researched response to that is to be welcomed rather than despised.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 08, 2019, 03:03:08 PM
I think a lot comes down to a poster's objectives ie you claim some continually promote the alerts as evidence and you feel the need to want to respond by definition continually.
What do you hope to achieve by this? It's extremely unlikely you will convert those who you claim continually promote the alerts as evidence to your way of thinking. How does going round in circles assist with MM's disappearance? Do you think lawyers and forensic scientists believe there's any evidence against the McCanns? The fact that some posters on a forum or some other place think otherwise so what?
Such is the nature of the "discussion" which has been taking place since Madeleine disappeared. The name of the game is repetition and going round in circles. As far as I know Davel is not producing videos and podcasts specifically to proselytize his opinions on others ... there are very many who do and in my opinion an intelligent well researched response to that is to be welcomed rather than despised.
Are you able to link me to the videos and podcasts along with the intelligent and well researched responses? Thanks.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 03:18:36 PM
Are you able to link me to the videos and podcasts along with the intelligent and well researched responses? Thanks.
Unfortunately I really do not have the vast amount of time required or a strong enough stomach to comply with that request. My best advice to you would be to enter 'Madeleine McCann' into a search engine and and you will have access to all the links you require particularly the youtube ones.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 08, 2019, 04:01:14 PM
SIL - you said recently "Assuming this is correct, woke and wandered has become a tad less likely." I don't see the logic building up to that conclusion.
For those wondering about the origin of this, it's the latest post on my blog.
I have been examining cadaver decomposition on the Algarve. With a view to considering whether Madeleine woke, wandered, and met her end by accident or design.
There are vast tracts of undeveloped terrain inside and around Luz, and elsewhere, so I'm trying to understand what would happen to a body on the terrain surface, or in a shallow grave.
I was surprised to see that Gonçalo's cadaver find did not appear to be impacted by insects or larger scavengers.
From recent posts here, it seems many, most or all dogs would find a cadaver. With a vast number of dogs on the Algarve, that means one aspect of W&W is less likely than I thought.
Clear as mud? *%87
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 08, 2019, 04:04:45 PM
For those wondering about the origin of this, it's the latest post on my blog.
I have been examining cadaver decomposition on the Algarve. With a view to considering whether Madeleine woke, wandered, and met her end by accident or design.
There are vast tracts of undeveloped terrain inside and around Luz, and elsewhere, so I'm trying to understand what would happen to a body on the terrain surface, or in a shallow grave.
I was surprised to see that Gonçalo's cadaver find did not appear to be impacted by insects or larger scavengers.
From recent posts here, it seems many, most or all dogs would find a cadaver. With a vast number of dogs on the Algarve, that means one aspect of W&W is less likely than I thought.
Clear as mud? *%87
With the alleged packs of wild dogs around PDL, perhaps that was her fate if she wandered off alone
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 04:15:27 PM
I haven't seen any moderation apart from one IMO... How many posts Re grime have you felt required to moderate... The fact is that I have, stuck to facts... And that has, really irritated some
Perhaps you could point out something I have said that isn't true... I doubt you will be able to
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 08, 2019, 04:17:59 PM
Deary me no, I'd be as biased as you, besides which I don't have the time or inclination.
You have absolutely no proof that I am biased in moderating, especially as I very rarely do. I have far too much trouble deciding, and let things go more often than not.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 08, 2019, 05:02:23 PM
You have absolutely no proof that I am biased in moderating, especially as I very rarely do. I have far too much trouble deciding, and let things go more often than not.
I do, when was the last time you deleted a post from a supporter? When was the last time you deleted one of mine? Today. And the post you deleted was of absolutely no consequence whatsoever, other than you didn't like the reply.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 08, 2019, 05:05:30 PM
I do, when was the last time you deleted a post from a supporter? When was the last time you deleted one of mine? Today. And the post you deleted was of absolutely no consequence whatsoever, other than you didn't like the reply.
I am not obliged to engage in this conversation any further. I would take it up with John if I were you.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 05:09:39 PM
I do, when was the last time you deleted a post from a supporter? When was the last time you deleted one of mine? Today. And the post you deleted was of absolutely no consequence whatsoever, other than you didn't like the reply.
It's strange... I don't find you particularly offensive at all
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 08, 2019, 05:10:01 PM
You have absolutely no proof that I am biased in moderating, especially as I very rarely do. I have far too much trouble deciding, and let things go more often than not.
You are very offended by the thought that paedophiles may have taken Madeleine and prevent discussion of it. While I absolutely understand your aversion to this subject unless the discussion breaks forum rules it really isn’t up to you to veto such discussions.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 08, 2019, 05:14:21 PM
I was reporting the facts... The fact that you felt they indicated impropriety is your opinion
I hope reporting facts is cause for posts to be deleted
I'm not going to trawl the archives (and you know that), but there were insinuations that he was hand picked by a prosection, then somehow acquiesced and found what the prosecution wanted to find. Or something like that.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 05:23:18 PM
I'm not going to trawl the archives (and you know that), but there were insinuations that he was hand picked by a prosection, then somehow acquiesced and found what the prosecution wanted to find. Or something like that.
Well he didn't turn up in America by chance did he.. I never claimed he found what the prosecution wanted to find.. I never suggested the alerts were false... I simply point out that the alerts, are not backed by solid scientific evidence
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 08, 2019, 06:06:17 PM
Empty claims from you and slarti... You just can't bear any criticism of grime.. Everything I've posted is factually based
Negative insinuations about anyone’s private motivation or about a person’s professional competence or integrity from someone without a similar level of expertise is libel and will be removed.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 06:07:48 PM
Negative insinuations about anyone’s private motivation or about a person’s professional competence or integrity from someone without a similar level of expertise is libel and will be removed.
I haven't made any insinuations... I've reported facts... I let others make, their mind up
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 08, 2019, 06:09:17 PM
Negative insinuations about anyone’s private motivation or about a person’s professional competence or integrity from someone without a similar level of expertise is libel and will be removed.
Are you saying I'm not allowed to report that according to a report commissioned by Jersey police grime claimed to be acpo accredited, and the report claimed he was not.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 08, 2019, 06:12:24 PM
Are you saying I'm not allowed to report that according to a report commissioned by Jersey police grime claimed to be acpo accredited, and the report claimed he was not.
You are allowed to state this.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 08, 2019, 06:12:39 PM
Are you saying I'm not allowed to report that according to a report commissioned by Jersey police grime claimed to be acpo accredited, and the report claimed he was not.
That is fine.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 06:13:06 PM
Are you saying I'm not allowed to report that according to a report commissioned by Jersey police grime claimed to be acpo accredited, the report claimed he was not.
I support your right to keep on shining a light on discrepancies in what Martin Grime has to say and on the dog alerts, why on earth should highlighting discrepancies be the sole preserve of sceptics pulling apart every word and deed of thr McCanns and their friends?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 06:15:27 PM
Negative insinuations about anyone’s private motivation or about a person’s professional competence or integrity from someone without a similar level of expertise is libel and will be removed.
its perfectly reasonable to criticise professionals...rowley, clarence.. and others have been heavily criticised...what is so special about grime
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: faithlilly on July 08, 2019, 06:16:25 PM
As was the post you replied to. I fear it’s she who hides in the shadows.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 06:17:50 PM
In LUZ ...grime said in his stateemnt taht cadaver alerts acn only be corroborated by finding remains....yrt now he is saying anectdotal witness statements are corroboration...what on earth could cause this seismic change in view.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 08, 2019, 06:18:28 PM
In LUZ ...grime said in his stateemnt taht cadaver alerts acn only be corroborated by finding remains....yrt now he is saying anectdotal witness statements are corroboration...what on earth could cause this seismic change in view.
Does it have any bearing on the disappearance of Madeleine?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 06:23:46 PM
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Brietta on July 08, 2019, 06:34:30 PM
Members please note ... moderation issues can be addressed here http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8404.0
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 06:38:37 PM
as Ive said...im not bothered about personal insults ..posters can call me whatever they like,,...its of no importance.......ive obviously rattled a few sceptic cages
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 06:43:11 PM
Are you saying I'm not allowed to report that according to a report commissioned by Jersey police grime claimed to be acpo accredited, and the report claimed he was not.
this is the report ,,...verbatim
Quote
The fact the MR Grime was not, at the time he was deployed in Jersey, an ACPO accredited police dog instructor...despite his claim to be so in statements and other documents submitted
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 07:02:53 PM
If Grime had called Eddie back the same amount of times as he did in 5a, then Eddie may have alerted to something in the other apartments. He was rushed through them.
Why not go the whole hog and claim the alerts were edited out of the tapes in the other apartments!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 07:05:22 PM
The alerts were supposed to be basically meaningless as regards, evidence... It was the evidence the dogs detected that is important... Grime has now moved the goalposts
Say something different for a change please. I still maintain the dogs only find odours not evidence. It is the job forensic team to take the samples. The interpretation of the results determines whether evidence is found.
Say something different for a change please. I still maintain the dogs only find odours not evidence. It is the job forensic team to take the samples. The interpretation of the results determines whether evidence is found. Were they trying to say there would have been more alerts if the dogs stayed longer?
dont tell me what to post...Grime is now using the alerts as evidence
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 08, 2019, 07:11:16 PM
In LUZ ...grime said in his stateemnt taht cadaver alerts acn only be corroborated by finding remains....yrt now he is saying anectdotal witness statements are corroboration...what on earth could cause this seismic change in view.
This is what Grime said;
Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog indicated by forensic laboratory analysis. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
When someone says "in this particular case" they aren't talking about every case, they're talking about just one.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 07:11:42 PM
Say something different for a change please. I still maintain the dogs only find odours not evidence. It is the job forensic team to take the samples. The interpretation of the results determines whether evidence is found. Were they trying to say there would have been more alerts if the dogs stayed longer?
no...they said they had doubts...thats not me...thats the PJ
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 07:14:20 PM
For those who haven't been following the case fir that long.. In 2007 the alerts, were considered meaningless but Grime had now moved the goalposts as was seen in the lane trial..
According to Grime the alerts, are no longer meaningless but evidential
Accept it then as evidential. But in this case evidence of what? That Kate had been in contact with cadavers in her job; that is a possibility.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 07:16:06 PM
Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog indicated by forensic laboratory analysis. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
When someone says "in this particular case" they aren't talking about every case, they're talking about just one.
only in that instance did he use those words...in other instances he was speking generally....harrison said the same
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 07:18:06 PM
He is making allegations of a pejorative nature against Grime. How do you feel about that Brietta ?
I'd have to Google "perjorative" first. But initially it doesn't sound good.
Let's Google it: pejorative
adjective 1. expressing contempt or disapproval. "permissiveness is used almost universally as a pejorative term" synonyms: disparaging, derogatory, denigratory, deprecatory, defamatory, slanderous, libellous, abusive, insulting, slighting, vituperative, disapproving, contemptuous;
noun 1. a word expressing contempt or disapproval. "most of what he said was inflammatory and filled with pejoratives""
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 07:28:50 PM
For those wondering about the origin of this, it's the latest post on my blog.
I have been examining cadaver decomposition on the Algarve. With a view to considering whether Madeleine woke, wandered, and met her end by accident or design.
There are vast tracts of undeveloped terrain inside and around Luz, and elsewhere, so I'm trying to understand what would happen to a body on the terrain surface, or in a shallow grave.
I was surprised to see that Gonçalo's cadaver find did not appear to be impacted by insects or larger scavengers.
From recent posts here, it seems many, most or all dogs would find a cadaver. With a vast number of dogs on the Algarve, that means one aspect of W&W is less likely than I thought.
Clear as mud? *%87
So it was woke wandered and died somewhere out in the open that you think as unlikely. I'd agree with that.
When I see hedgehogs attacked by predators they usually have been minced by a car first. A lot of animal won't eat meat that is reeking of cadaver odour. You'd need something like vultures to do that.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on July 08, 2019, 07:37:56 PM
So it was woke wandered and died somewhere out in the open that you think as unlikely. I'd agree with that.
When I see hedgehogs attacked by predators they usually have been minced by a car first. A lot of animal won't eat meat that is reeking of cadaver odour. You'd need something like vultures to do that.
Or seagulls. Imagine there are plenty of gulls along the Algarve coast
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 07:44:31 PM
I'd have to Google "perjorative" first. But initially it doesn't sound good.
Let's Google it: pejorative
adjective 1. expressing contempt or disapproval. "permissiveness is used almost universally as a pejorative term" synonyms: disparaging, derogatory, denigratory, deprecatory, defamatory, slanderous, libellous, abusive, insulting, slighting, vituperative, disapproving, contemptuous;
noun 1. a word expressing contempt or disapproval. "most of what he said was inflammatory and filled with pejoratives""
I would say I'm not.. I'm stating facts and letting the reader draw their own conclusions
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 07:47:21 PM
Negative insinuations about anyone’s private motivation or about a person’s professional competence or integrity from someone without a similar level of expertise is libel and will be removed.
Where did that come from?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on July 08, 2019, 07:55:55 PM
From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.
If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'
On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 08, 2019, 07:59:32 PM
So it was woke wandered and died somewhere out in the open that you think as unlikely. I'd agree with that.
When I see hedgehogs attacked by predators they usually have been minced by a car first. A lot of animal won't eat meat that is reeking of cadaver odour. You'd need something like vultures to do that.
The hedgehog appeared to be uninjured.
Definitely not roadkill.
And I've never seen a vulture in real life.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 08:00:10 PM
Then please post the quotes you are relying on so we can all see them.
harrison..
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets. Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 08:06:53 PM
Not even as part of a chain of circumstantial evidence?
no...the rest of the evidence would have to stand on its own....
how fair is it that in the white middle class mccanns case the alerts are not evidential....but in the lane case ...black...poor they are. Having said taht I think there was enough evidence to convict him but without hearing everything its hard to be sure
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 08:13:47 PM
Or seagulls. Imagine there are plenty of gulls along the Algarve coast
Is that true, I'm feeding 6 large molly hawk gulls and I'm surprised at what they won't eat (by what is left), I don't really get to see what they do eat.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 08:18:41 PM
Or seagulls. Imagine there are plenty of gulls along the Algarve coast
Is that true, I'm feeding 6 large molly hawk gulls and I'm surprised at what they won't eat (by what is left), I don't really get to see what they do eat.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 08:20:00 PM
Is that true, I'm feeding 6 large molly hawk gulls and I'm surprised at what they won't eat (by what is left), I don't really get to see what they do eat.
Perhaps you're feeding them too well and they are getting picky
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 08:20:38 PM
From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.
If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'
On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'
The only thing I can say is that Eddie is detecting molecules in the air, and if they can tell Eddie where to sniff for them they ought to. As far as Cuddle Cat goes IMO he is innocent and doesn't want to comment.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 08:29:39 PM
Perhaps you're feeding them too well and they are getting picky
If you were a gull how would you begin to eat a hedgehog? But as I've seen many times the (harrier) hawks hoe into then when they are opened up by vehicle.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: jassi on July 08, 2019, 08:29:45 PM
From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.
If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'
On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'
The only thing I can say is that Eddie is detecting molecules in the air, and if they can tell Eddie where to sniff for them they ought to. As far as Cuddle Cat goes IMO he is innocent and doesn't want to comment.
More likely had an injunction served on him 8(0(*
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 08:30:05 PM
From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.
If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'
On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'
The only thing I can say is that Eddie is detecting molecules in the air, and if they can tell Eddie where to sniff for them they ought to. As far as Cuddle Cat goes IMO he is innocent and doesn't want to comment.
its not where ,,,its what hes sniffing...does anyone really know
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 08, 2019, 08:32:00 PM
no...the rest of the evidence would have to stand on its own....
how fair is it that in the white middle class mccanns case the alerts are not evidential....but in the lane case ...black...poor they are. Having said taht I think there was enough evidence to convict him but without hearing everything its hard to be sure
It is possible his understanding of his dogs alerts has become deeper over time.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 08, 2019, 08:59:08 PM
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets. Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence
Is "intelligence" the same as meaningless?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 08, 2019, 09:04:10 PM
no it doesnt...in this instance we have the original portuguese the statement was made in..
in the mccanns case we do not have the original english
you will have to do much better to catch me out
Had the PJ been asking these questions before the McCanns were made arguidos then I'd say it was more balanced. But I found that the analysis document was produced in February 2008 , i.e. approx. 5 months later.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 09, 2019, 07:49:25 AM
The alerts in 5A were intelligence. Intelligence is useful information. In this case it led to a request for a search warrant for the McCann's villa and hired car issued on 1sr August 2007. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/59-DA-27.htm
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 09, 2019, 08:03:39 AM
The alerts in 5A were intelligence. Intelligence is useful information. In this case it led to a request for a search warrant for the McCann's villa and hired car issued on 1sr August 2007. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/59-DA-27.htm
Where Eddie had a high old time running around like a lunatic and throwing Cuddle Cat in the air a couple of times without alerting.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 09, 2019, 08:06:32 AM
The alerts in 5A were intelligence. Intelligence is useful information. In this case it led to a request for a search warrant for the McCann's villa and hired car issued on 1sr August 2007. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/59-DA-27.htm
shall i change my post to the alerts are pretty useless but not entirely useless
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Eleanor on July 09, 2019, 08:09:55 AM
shall i change my post to the alerts are pretty useless but not entirely useless
So useless that at least two men are in jail thanks, in part, to alerts by cadaver dogs. If they can contribute to bringing murderers to justice that makes them very useful imo.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 09, 2019, 08:52:55 AM
So useless that at least two men are in jail thanks, in part, to alerts by cadaver dogs. If they can contribute to bringing murdererst to justice that makes them very useful imo.
I've said it before, I'd go one further, I think they will act as a deterrent, or at least a behaviour modifier. Perps will start to modify crime scenes in the same way they now know about DNA / blood and try to erase all trace, they will be attempting to cover their tracks from the dogs. I'm not saying all of this is new, but high-profile cases may make some change their post-crime behaviour, which may be incrimiating in itself.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 09, 2019, 01:06:38 PM
So useless that at least two men are in jail thanks, in part, to alerts by cadaver dogs. If they can contribute to bringing murderers to justice that makes them very useful imo.
yet grime said these alert have no evidential reliability ...as ive said...whats changed his mind
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 09, 2019, 08:22:32 PM
No. it's how you have chosen to interpret what he says in my opinion.
So you don't think the fact that grime now says that cadaver dog alerts can be corroborated by anectdotal witness statements represents a change from 2007
I don't see it as, a matter of opinion... I see it as, a matter of fact
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 10, 2019, 08:53:28 AM
So you don't think the fact that grime now says that cadaver dog alerts can be corroborated by anectdotal witness statements represents a change from 2007
I don't see it as, a matter of opinion... I see it as, a matter of fact
Well it won't be resolved just by stating your case.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 10, 2019, 08:55:39 AM
So you don't think the fact that grime now says that cadaver dog alerts can be corroborated by anectdotal witness statements represents a change from 2007
I don't see it as, a matter of opinion... I see it as, a matter of fact
You've just interpreted it in that way. That's fine. You've told us, we know, thanks.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 10, 2019, 08:56:37 AM
You've just interpreted it in that way. That's fine. You've told us, we know, thanks.
I haven't interpreted anything... I've stated facts.. Facts that by your reply cannot refute.. Can you show my claim is based on interpretation.. What other interpretations are there... Where's your evidence to support your claim or is it as I suspect an empty claim based on nothing
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 10, 2019, 09:05:22 AM
So you don't think the fact that grime now says that cadaver dog alerts can be corroborated by anectdotal witness statements represents a change from 2007
I don't see it as, a matter of opinion... I see it as, a matter of fact
In PdL Grime would probably know there was no other strong evidence and the alerts would rely on forensic confirmation.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 10, 2019, 09:12:35 AM
In PdL Grime would probably know there was no other strong evidence and the alerts would rely on forensic confirmation.
Anectdotal witness statements are not strong evidence
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 10, 2019, 09:24:56 AM
This is what harrison had to say in his statement,...
Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.
no mention of anectdotal witness statements
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 10, 2019, 09:40:29 AM
This is what harrison had to say in his statement,...
Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.
no mention of anectdotal witness statements
But he is not a judge either.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: The General on July 10, 2019, 09:42:37 AM
This is what harrison had to say in his statement,...
Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.
no mention of anectdotal witness statements
So what? Grime knows the process, just like you know how to administer superfluous, costly dental treatment.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 10, 2019, 09:44:02 AM
The PJ might have told him, or the UK police might have known what the PJ knew and they told Grime.
grime think was clear...harrison i know was clear...physical evidence required to corroborate the alerts...that is not opinion...its fact. in the lane case....no physical evidence ...but grime claims anectdotal witness staements corroborate them....whats going on
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 10, 2019, 09:44:49 AM
grime think was clear...harrison i know was clear...physical evidence required to corroborate the alerts...that is not opinion...its fact. in the lane case....no physical evidence ...but grime claims anectdotal witness staements corroborate them....whats going on
They never said "only physical evidence".
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 10, 2019, 09:57:20 AM
And I read it. It doesn't say "only" physical evidence. "Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence." So the finding of human DNA was enough then to show it was an alert to a "human cadaver".
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 10, 2019, 10:06:05 AM
And I read it. It doesn't say "only" physical evidence. "Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence." So the finding of human DNA was enough then to show it was an alert to a "human cadaver".
dna is physical evidence but does not support the alert as it could be a live person..im sure there would have been plenty of biancas dna on her car seat........at least you accept now that at that time physical evidence was required not anectdotal witness statements...
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 10, 2019, 10:10:25 AM
dna is physical evidence but does not support the alert as it could be a live person..im sure there would have been plenty of biancas dna on her car seat........at least you accept now that at that time physical evidence was required not anectdotal witness statements...
Had there been supporting statements he would have allowed them. If someone said "I saw XXX stuffing a suitcase with a girl's corpse". That would be evidence enough.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 10, 2019, 10:23:49 AM
Had there been supporting statements he would have allowed them. If someone said "I saw XXX stuffing a suitcase with a girl's corpse". That would be evidence enough.
we are discussing what the alerts mean.....someone seen stuffing a corpse in a suitcase is stand alone evidence...we wouldnt need the dogs to tell us a corpse had been present
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 10, 2019, 12:18:27 PM
we are discussing what the alerts mean.....someone seen stuffing a corpse in a suitcase is stand alone evidence...we wouldnt need the dogs to tell us a corpse had been present
Yes you would if the suitcase went missing overnight. So you might have a cadaver dog alert plus a statement, but no body no physical parts, and no blood. Would you accept the statement? Would you accept the alert?
But as a combination they carry a lot more weight, as the statement backs the alert and the alert supports the statement.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 10, 2019, 12:26:01 PM
Yes you would if the suitcase went missing overnight. So you might have a cadaver dog alert plus a statement, but no body no physical parts, and no blood. Would you accept the statement? Would you accept the alert?
But as a combination they carry a lot more weight, as the statement backs the alert and the alert supports the statement.
Your post isn't really clear rob.. If someone was, seen stuffing a cadaver in a suitcase that's strong evidence... What's the use of the alert
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 10, 2019, 12:39:26 PM
Your post isn't really clear rob.. If someone was, seen stuffing a cadaver in a suitcase that's strong evidence... What's the use of the alert
Any statement could be false. People lie to the police all the time. It would be a mistake to take any statement at face value. Every item in a statement needs corroboration and if found, then it is more likely to be truth.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: G-Unit on July 10, 2019, 07:11:14 PM
So you don't think the fact that grime now says that cadaver dog alerts can be corroborated by anectdotal witness statements represents a change from 2007
I don't see it as, a matter of opinion... I see it as, a matter of fact
If it's facts you like D'Andre Lane was convicted (fact) by anecdotal witness statements (fact) plus cadaver dog alerts (fact)
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 10, 2019, 07:16:57 PM
If it's facts you like D'Andre Lane was convicted (fact) by anecdotal witness statements (fact) plus cadaver dog alerts (fact)
it is facts i like.....have alook at the other thread and you'll see some more facts...how the FBI have presented flawed evidence that has now been challenged and discredited...the same may well happen to the cadaver dog evidence..
it is facts i like.....have alook at the other thread and you'll see some more facts...how the FBI have presented flawed evidence that has now been challenged and discredited...the same may well happen to the cadaver dog evidence..
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 14, 2019, 01:56:13 PM
Davel - do you know the number of papers that are in the document http://eprints.staffs.ac.uk/4750/1/Forensic%20Canine%20Foundation%20.pdf
There could be more than 10 papers in all which means the internal page numbering, does not match the PDF document numbering. That totally confuses me as in the end I'm sure where I'm up to, what paper I'm looking at as I look at the 91 times the word "blood" appears.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 14, 2019, 05:05:38 PM
Davel - do you know the number of papers that are in the document http://eprints.staffs.ac.uk/4750/1/Forensic%20Canine%20Foundation%20.pdf
There could be more than 10 papers in all which means the internal page numbering, does not match the PDF document numbering. That totally confuses me as in the end I'm sure where I'm up to, what paper I'm looking at as I look at the 91 times the word "blood" appears.
The simplest thing to do is go by the PDF page number 1 to 187...and in all 187 pages the phrase decomposed blood does not appear
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 14, 2019, 10:14:50 PM
The simplest thing to do is go by the PDF page number 1 to 187...and in all 187 pages the phrase decomposed blood does not appear
Didn't you see I conceded you were right. (see the thread "Exhibit A and the Trial of D'Andre Lane." http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10842.msg545455#msg545455)
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 15, 2019, 12:18:56 PM
Davel has suggested that Grime trains his dogs more thoroughly: "It's my opinion that Martin Grime needs to make sure his dogs, are more thoroughly tested". http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10881.msg545777#msg545777
Davels say that IMO because he wants to make a difference. "You would like cadaver dogs to be tested more thoroughly. It sounds like a good idea initially as I have agreed but where does that extra thoroughness stop. How necessary was it in the first place.
I did find one section in those papers where areas of confusion are discussed. There could be chemical combination concocted that smelt like the target odour. But as far as I know no one has done that yet."
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 15, 2019, 12:19:46 PM
Good reference document http://eprints.staffs.ac.uk/4750/1/Forensic%20Canine%20Foundation%20.pdf
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 15, 2019, 11:47:58 PM
The dogs are trained to alert to a particular odour.
The dogs alerted eleven times.
All eleven alerts were directly linked to the McCann's.
The dogs are not trained to alert to anything else. Tests show they do alert to what they are trained to alert to with 92-100% accuracy. The dogs are regularly tested.
You can't possibly test which billions of other things the dogs might mistakenly alert to. To suggest that this means they lack proper training or testing is just chaff. The fact remains that the dogs are trained to alert to specific things. To be wrong eleven times would be quite something. To be wrong eleven times and all the mistakes by chance just relate to one family is off the scale incredible.
IMO must people faced with the dog alert films in the context of this case would begin to concede that the likelihood is that the missing child is dead. They would then want to know what has happened. IMO the first response would not be to clam up... and then to rubbish these highly skilled dogs.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 15, 2019, 11:48:57 PM
The dogs are trained to alert to a particular odour.
The dogs alerted eleven times.
All eleven alerts were directly linked to the McCann's.
The dogs are not trained to alert to anything else. Tests show they do alert to what they are trained to alert to with 92-100% accuracy. The dogs are regularly tested.
You can't possibly test which billions of other things the dogs might mistakenly alert to. To suggest that this means they lack proper training or testing is just chaff. The fact remains that the dogs are trained to alert to specific things. To be wrong eleven times would be quite something. To be wrong eleven times and all the mistakes by chance just relate to one family is off the scale incredible.
IMO must people faced with the dog alert films in the context of this case would begin to concede that the likelihood is that the missing child is dead. They would then want to know what has happened. IMO the first response would not be to clam up... and then to rubbish these highly skilled dogs.
Did you look up Zampo?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 15, 2019, 11:51:12 PM
Why? Your post referenced the number of alerts and scoffed at the idea that so many alerts only to things pertaining to the McCanns could be written off as a coincidence, so how do you explain Zampo’s 45 alerts in a place his handler was told was the scene of many grisly murders that later actually turned out never happened in that location at all?
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 16, 2019, 07:48:29 AM
The dogs are trained to alert to a particular odour.
The dogs alerted eleven times.
All eleven alerts were directly linked to the McCann's.
The dogs are not trained to alert to anything else. Tests show they do alert to what they are trained to alert to with 92-100% accuracy. The dogs are regularly tested.
You can't possibly test which billions of other things the dogs might mistakenly alert to. To suggest that this means they lack proper training or testing is just chaff. The fact remains that the dogs are trained to alert to specific things. To be wrong eleven times would be quite something. To be wrong eleven times and all the mistakes by chance just relate to one family is off the scale incredible.
IMO must people faced with the dog alert films in the context of this case would begin to concede that the likelihood is that the missing child is dead. They would then want to know what has happened. IMO the first response would not be to clam up... and then to rubbish these highly skilled dogs.
so you raiseed the topic of the dogs on no less than four different threads late alst night....showing that claims IM obsessed with the dogs is totally untrue...i merely respond to psots sucha s yours. I wa shappy to leave it there but you want to raise exactly the same issues again which ive alraedy answerred. Ill annwer them again alittle later...no apologies to those who suggest i give the dog topic a rest. As long as sceptics raise the topic I will respond
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 16, 2019, 11:11:01 AM
The dogs are trained to alert to a particular odour.
The dogs alerted eleven times.
All eleven alerts were directly linked to the McCann's.
The dogs are not trained to alert to anything else. Tests show they do alert to what they are trained to alert to with 92-100% accuracy. The dogs are regularly tested.
You can't possibly test which billions of other things the dogs might mistakenly alert to. To suggest that this means they lack proper training or testing is just chaff. The fact remains that the dogs are trained to alert to specific things. To be wrong eleven times would be quite something. To be wrong eleven times and all the mistakes by chance just relate to one family is off the scale incredible.
IMO must people faced with the dog alert films in the context of this case would begin to concede that the likelihood is that the missing child is dead. They would then want to know what has happened. IMO the first response would not be to clam up... and then to rubbish these highly skilled dogs.
The dogs are only tested for their ability to alert to cadaver odour....which they are good at ...but not tested to see how they behave when cadaaver odour isnt present.
grime said no false alerts in 200 case searches....which would suggest they are not tested for false alerts...that is a major fail..imo
The dogs alerted only to articles related to teh mccanns. according to the PJ...cite provided many times...they initially did not alert to things mccann but were called back.
even grime has said that the alerts are not necessarily related to any particular scenario
11 alerts in Jersey...a coconut...baby teeth...and some bone fragmnets that may or may not be human...grime has now said cadaver dogs do not alert to such teeth....so what were all those alerts about
based on the evidence...imo...cadaver alerts total rubbish in this case
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 16, 2019, 11:56:14 AM
This is a dog thread!
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 16, 2019, 08:43:24 PM
The dogs are only tested for their ability to alert to cadaver odour....which they are good at ...but not tested to see how they behave when cadaaver odour isnt present.
grime said no false alerts in 200 case searches....which would suggest they are not tested for false alerts...that is a major fail..imo
The dogs alerted only to articles related to teh mccanns. according to the PJ...cite provided many times...they initially did not alert to things mccann but were called back.
even grime has said that the alerts are not necessarily related to any particular scenario
11 alerts in Jersey...a coconut...baby teeth...and some bone fragmnets that may or may not be human...grime has now said cadaver dogs do not alert to such teeth....so what were all those alerts about
based on the evidence...imo...cadaver alerts total rubbish in this case
The bone fragments were human.
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 16, 2019, 08:44:04 PM
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 16, 2019, 09:11:57 PM
Police found 170 pieces of bone in the area of the main building and the grounds.
All but three were from animals, police said on 12 November. They said the others might be human, but dated from the 15th Century to 1950 at the latest.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7267632.stm
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 16, 2019, 09:13:26 PM
Police found 170 pieces of bone in the area of the main building and the grounds.
All but three were from animals, police said on 12 November. They said the others might be human, but dated from the 15th Century to 1950 at the latest.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7267632.stm
so not confirmed as human...as i said ,,
Title: Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 16, 2019, 09:14:18 PM