I believe Amy Tierney was telling the truth.

[Robittybob1]

I believe Amy Tierney was telling the truth.

I believe Amy Tierney was telling the truth about:

1. Being on duty.
2. Seeing the window open.
3. Seeing the shutter up.
4.  Knowing that Gerry went to ring the police.
5. (indirectly) Informing Lyndsay before 10:17 PM

If it is not right on the forum to say someone is lying how is anyone going to argue against that?

17

[Robittybob1]

For Amy being on duty doesn't mean she has to be in the night creche building.  She has an office or a desk at least over at the Tapas area.  I believe there was an earlier incident which gets cleared up quickly that takes Amy over to the Tapas and while she is still over there the McCann incident breaks out so within minutes of Kate raising the alarm Amy is able to  ascertain that it is Madeleine McCann who is missing this time, and goes to the apartment, early enough before Gerry or Dianne has touched the window or the shutter.

Minutes later she contacts Lyndsay who in turn contacts Emma Knights.  Emma Knight gets the call at 10:17 so I propose that the call from Amy to Lyndsay was prior to that.  At a guess 10:15.
With the walk back to the office Amy would have left the McCann apartment at least a minute prior to that.  So I propose her check of the apartment was complete at 10:14 PM

10:14 PM would be before or at about the time Dianne returns to the apartment, but that is after Gerry returns from his initial search around the perimeter of the apartment.

When she says Kate was there with a friend that friend could well have been Rachael who was staying next door.

[Robittybob1]

I don't often read Rachael's statements so let's see if there is any indication Rachael was on hand.

Well I struggle a bit to get the picture of what she was doing, but by the sound of it she went to the patio door but didn't go in and then walked around to her apartment to check on Grace, started talking to Fiona and Jane.  Rachael is uncertain about what Fiona does in some ways.  For if Fiona came through the McCann's apartment early she would have passed by the raised shutter.

Looking at Fiona's rogatory statement:

"1578 'When you, when you rose from the Tapas table and you followed Kate'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.
 1578 'To their apartment 5A, you said that you didn't go into the apartment'.
 Reply 'Yeah didn't go in'.

1578 'Who were you with at that point''
 Reply 'Well we were altogether really, I think I was probably at the back with Matt, had some high heels on that I couldn't really run very fast, remember that'.

1578 'And then''
 Reply 'I got to the bottom of the steps and Dave and Fi and Gerry and Kate were already sort of on the balcony of Gerry and Kates apartment, and I think had maybe already gone inside, erm and I think, I think Russell and Matt maybe went into the garden and just had a quick scoot around there to make sure'.

1578 'And then shortly after yourself and Matt''
 Reply 'Yeah'.
 1578 'Went round'.
 Reply 'Went round'.

1578 'To your apartment''
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'How soon after'' "

As they walked around they didn't look to see if the shutters were up.!


"after we checked on Grace and come out and I think perhaps Kate and Fi were standing by the window, like on the outside of the apartment and no, Kate, I think Kate had said you know, somebodys taken her, cos the shutter was up and the window was open, erm yeah, I think it was then that we kind of realised that she'd been taken, erm as, you know, as opposed to just kind of wandering out of her bed and just wondering where people were, erm and then, and I remember then going to talk to Jane and Matt went off and that, I went to talk to Jane and said you know, that Madeleine had disappeared and the window was open and the shutter was up, erm and then Jane said to me that when she'd come back to do her check, erm she'd seen somebody carrying a child, walking kind of across the top of the T junction, as she, as she'd been walking up from the, from the Ocean Club, they'd been walking across the top of the road and we kind of said well you know, could have been, not could have been anyone but still sure it couldn't have been Madeleine because Gerry, cos you know if when she was, when she left the table to come up to do her check, Gerry was talking to Jez in the road,"

They  (Jane and Rachael) heard Kate and Fiona discussing the open shutters and window, but presumably Gerry had lowered it by then.

So Rachael could be the person Amy Tierney saw provided it was before Rachael walked around to the car park side of the building.

What does Amy actually say about this?  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm  "In reply to the question asked, she said that the back door (porta das traseiras) that leads to the parking area was closed, but she doesn't know whether the front door (porta da frente) was locked as when she arrived both the parents and a female friend of theirs whose name she does not know, were there and that is why the door was open."

It is possible this female friend was Fiona or Dianne, but I tend to think if was Dianne there would be a comment about the age gap.   Jane is in her apartment and Rachael is making her way around to her apartment.  Dianne is probably sitting in the Tapas waiting for everyone to come back.  So what would have stopped Fiona seeing the window open and the shutters up?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
"1485
 'Right. I have got to ask you this question, did you see the shutters open or did you see them closed''

Reply
 'On the Thursday''
 
 
 1485
 'Yeah'.
 
 
 Reply
 'I didn't see them'.
 
 
 1485
 'You didn't see them''
 
 
 Reply
 'What, after Madeleine or''
 
 00.34.44
 1485
 'No, when you was walking to''
 
 
 Reply
 'When I was walking, I wouldn't have even noticed, so I couldn't, I couldn't tell you whether they were open or shut'.
 
 
 1485
 'And your route, how far away from the McCANN's shutters, wall if you like, how far would you be away from it''
 
 
 Reply
 'Quite far away, erm, it's a distance, as I say, you've got a wall and then the car park and the road, so we were on the road, so it's, erm, I'm not very good with distances, I'd say, I don't know, around thirty metres, something like that'.
 
 
 1485
 'Yeah'.
 
 
 Reply
 'Maybe longer'.
 
 
 1485
 'Okay. So you then walked down the road, you bump into Matt, you turn right, you go in towards the Tapas''"


Well she didn't see them open as they went to the Tapas.

I'm not sure where Amy has her office but if it was near the Baby Club area this would have been an ideal time for Amy to become aware of the alarm.
"Reply
 'Erm, tut, she sort of raced back and she just appeared at the doors of the sort of reception area and just shouted across, erm, 'She's gone. Gerry, Madeleine's gone'."

So we all were sort of racing behind Kate and Gerry, erm, back up to the apartment. Erm, we didn't go in at that point, I think Kate, erm, Gerry must have rushed in with Kate and pretty much immediately Dave, erm, Matt, Russell and myself split up in four different directions just to do a search, you know, again assuming that she must have just wandered off. Erm, tut, so, you know, I don't know which way they went, but I, I went round the back of, erm, tut, well this way around the back of the apartments and round the back of the tennis courts on the main road and then cut down in front of the Baptista Supermarket and back up, that was the route I did'.

Really as I read this I tend to think it was Rachael who was near the door when Amy turned up as Fiona does quite a long search which would have taken the best part of 10 minutes to complete.

[pathfinder73]

I think Amy is mistaken that she saw the shutter up outside Madeleine's bedroom window because Dianne got it stuck when she tried to raise it. Amy did not get to apartment 5A before Dianne and there is no evidence suggesting that she did when co-workers said she was at the night creche.

[jassi]

I don't often read Rachael's statements so let's see if there is any indication Rachael was on hand.

Well I struggle a bit to get the picture of what she was doing, but by the sound of it she went to the patio door but didn't go in and then walked around to her apartment to check on Grace, started talking to Fiona and Jane.  Rachael is uncertain about what Fiona does in some ways.  For if Fiona came through the McCann's apartment early she would have passed by the raised shutter.

Looking at Fiona's rogatory statement:

"1578 'When you, when you rose from the Tapas table and you followed Kate'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.
 1578 'To their apartment 5A, you said that you didn't go into the apartment'.
 Reply 'Yeah didn't go in'.

1578 'Who were you with at that point''
 Reply 'Well we were altogether really, I think I was probably at the back with Matt, had some high heels on that I couldn't really run very fast, remember that'.

1578 'And then''
 Reply 'I got to the bottom of the steps and Dave and Fi and Gerry and Kate were already sort of on the balcony of Gerry and Kates apartment, and I think had maybe already gone inside, erm and I think, I think Russell and Matt maybe went into the garden and just had a quick scoot around there to make sure'.

1578 'And then shortly after yourself and Matt''
 Reply 'Yeah'.
 1578 'Went round'.
 Reply 'Went round'.

1578 'To your apartment''
 Reply 'Yeah'.

1578 'How soon after'' "

As they walked around they didn't look to see if the shutters were up.!


"after we checked on Grace and come out and I think perhaps Kate and Fi were standing by the window, like on the outside of the apartment and no, Kate, I think Kate had said you know, somebodys taken her, cos the shutter was up and the window was open, erm yeah, I think it was then that we kind of realised that she'd been taken, erm as, you know, as opposed to just kind of wandering out of her bed and just wondering where people were, erm and then, and I remember then going to talk to Jane and Matt went off and that, I went to talk to Jane and said you know, that Madeleine had disappeared and the window was open and the shutter was up, erm and then Jane said to me that when she'd come back to do her check, erm she'd seen somebody carrying a child, walking kind of across the top of the T junction, as she, as she'd been walking up from the, from the Ocean Club, they'd been walking across the top of the road and we kind of said well you know, could have been, not could have been anyone but still sure it couldn't have been Madeleine because Gerry, cos you know if when she was, when she left the table to come up to do her check, Gerry was talking to Jez in the road,"

They  (Jane and Rachael) heard Kate and Fiona discussing the open shutters and window, but presumably Gerry had lowered it by then.

So Rachael could be the person Amy Tierney saw provided it was before Rachael walked around to the car park side of the building.

What does Amy actually say about this?  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm  "In reply to the question asked, she said that the back door (porta das traseiras) that leads to the parking area was closed, but she doesn't know whether the front door (porta da frente) was locked as when she arrived both the parents and a female friend of theirs whose name she does not know, were there and that is why the door was open."

It is possible this female friend was Fiona or Dianne, but I tend to think if was Dianne there would be a comment about the age gap.   Jane is in her apartment and Rachael is making her way around to her apartment.  Dianne is probably sitting in the Tapas waiting for everyone to come back.  So what would have stopped Fiona seeing the window open and the shutters up?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
"1485
 'Right. I have got to ask you this question, did you see the shutters open or did you see them closed''

Reply
 'On the Thursday''
 
 
 1485
 'Yeah'.
 
 
 Reply
 'I didn't see them'.
 
 
 1485
 'You didn't see them''
 
 
 Reply
 'What, after Madeleine or''
 
 00.34.44
 1485
 'No, when you was walking to''
 
 
 Reply
 'When I was walking, I wouldn't have even noticed, so I couldn't, I couldn't tell you whether they were open or shut'.
 
 
 1485
 'And your route, how far away from the McCANN's shutters, wall if you like, how far would you be away from it''
 
 
 Reply
 'Quite far away, erm, it's a distance, as I say, you've got a wall and then the car park and the road, so we were on the road, so it's, erm, I'm not very good with distances, I'd say, I don't know, around thirty metres, something like that'.
 
 
 1485
 'Yeah'.
 
 
 Reply
 'Maybe longer'.
 
 
 1485
 'Okay. So you then walked down the road, you bump into Matt, you turn right, you go in towards the Tapas''"


Well she didn't see them open as they went to the Tapas.

I'm not sure where Amy has her office but if it was near the Baby Club area this would have been an ideal time for Amy to become aware of the alarm.
"Reply
 'Erm, tut, she sort of raced back and she just appeared at the doors of the sort of reception area and just shouted across, erm, 'She's gone. Gerry, Madeleine's gone'."

So we all were sort of racing behind Kate and Gerry, erm, back up to the apartment. Erm, we didn't go in at that point, I think Kate, erm, Gerry must have rushed in with Kate and pretty much immediately Dave, erm, Matt, Russell and myself split up in four different directions just to do a search, you know, again assuming that she must have just wandered off. Erm, tut, so, you know, I don't know which way they went, but I, I went round the back of, erm, tut, well this way around the back of the apartments and round the back of the tennis courts on the main road and then cut down in front of the Baptista Supermarket and back up, that was the route I did'.

Really as I read this I tend to think it was Rachael who was near the door when Amy turned up as Fiona does quite a long search which would have taken the best part of 10 minutes to complete.

So who was looking after Fiona's and Rachel's children while they were dashing around, or were they left unattended during this time?

[Robittybob1]

So who was looking after Fiona's and Rachel's children while they were dashing around, or were they left unattended during this time?

Well Rachael never strayed for for long.  The kid is asleep when they (Gerry and Rachel) climbed the stairs.    Dianne was supposed to be looking after the Payne's kids using that monitor.

It was interesting that Rachael says Gerry and her checked the stairs and passages at the block G5.  It would be a most unlikely place for Madeleine to go own her own.  If she was taken up there by someone they would have been trapped up there.  The only reason for a kidnapper to go upstairs would be if they had an apartment to hide in up there. Still trapped up there, so I can't see that being done with planning involved.

[Robittybob1]

I think Amy is mistaken that she saw the shutter up outside Madeleine's bedroom window because Dianne got it stuck when she tried to raise it. Amy did not get to apartment 5A before Dianne and there is no evidence suggesting that she did when co-workers said she was at the night creche.

When did Kate's check end in your opinion?  Aren't you always saying it started at 10:03 exactly and took 5  to 10 minutes.  So in your theory Kate's alarm starts betweeen 10:08  - 10:13 PM. 
We have to have Amy ringing Lyndsay and Lyndsay ringing Emma all before 10:17.

If you were right Amy confirmed Madeleine was missing just on the basis of a lady dropping into the night creche.
Who from the company had checked the McCann's apartment before the phone calls in your theory?

Instead of just picking holes in my theory how about a comprehensive explanation as to how you see it happening please?

[pathfinder73]

That is not my theory. I believe Kate raised the alarm by 21:55.

[Robittybob1]

Well Rachael never strayed for for long.  The kid is asleep when they (Gerry and Rachel) climbed the stairs.    Dianne was supposed to be looking after the Payne's kids using that monitor.

It was interesting that Rachael says Gerry and her checked the stairs and passages at the block G5.  It would be a most unlikely place for Madeleine to go own her own.  If she was taken up there by someone they would have been trapped up there.  The only reason for a kidnapper to go upstairs would be if they had an apartment to hide in up there. Still trapped up there, so I can't see that being done with planning involved.

They checked the stairs but did anyone check the lift?

[Robittybob1]

That is not my theory. I believe Kate raised the alarm by 21:55.

OK what time did she go for her check then?  Where do you get your times from?

From Gerry's statement: "---- Half and hour later without anything to signal, it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house."

So you dispute she set out at 10:03 PM and took at most 5 minutes? (Seemed like 10 to Gerry!)

[Robittybob1]

I find reading your theory difficult for you don't actually make it clear from the beginning. 

[Robittybob1]

I find reading your theory difficult for you don't actually make it clear from the beginning.

Even if it was earlier was Amy there before the window and shutters were shut?  That is the important thing.  I'm saying she was, and you say she wasn't (I think, but I don't comprehend your theory fully).

If Amy got there at 10:00 PM and she spent 10 minutes confirming Madeleine really was missing and not hiding somewhere in the apartment, that brings it to 10:10 walk back to office, ring Lyndsay 10:12,  Lyndsay rings Emma 10:17.  We don't know how much time each event took.

[Robittybob1]

Even if it was earlier was Amy there before the window and shutters were shut?  That is the important thing.  I'm saying she was, and you say she wasn't (I think, but I don't comprehend your theory fully).

If Amy got there at 10:00 PM and she spent 10 minutes confirming Madeleine really was missing and not hiding somewhere in the apartment, that brings it to 10:10 walk back to office, ring Lyndsay 10:12,  Lyndsay rings Emma 10:17.  We don't know how much time each event took.

PF do you accept that Amy fully checked out the apartment before she got Lyndsay to call the Missing Child Procedures?

[Robittybob1]

Amy Tierney on the 6th May doesn't define the time that these events occurred.

"She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.

The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.

However there was a bed against the window, which could have enabled the girl to climb up onto it and then up to the window, the witness thinks it would not be possible as she would not be able to open the shutters and even if she had done so she would have fallen outside as the window is too high for a child of that age to be able to descend without falling.

In reply to the question asked, she said that the back door (porta das traseiras) that leads to the parking area was closed, but she doesn't know whether the front door (porta da frente) was locked as when she arrived both the parents and a female friend of theirs whose name she does not know, were there and that is why the door was open.

After having searched the apartment and verified that the girl was not there, the outside searches were begun."

[pathfinder73]

PF do you accept that Amy fully checked out the apartment before she got Lyndsay to call the Missing Child Procedures?

No IMO Amy rang Lyndsay straight away from the night creche. Lyndsay informed Emma Knight which was logged at 22:17 and then they initiated the missing child procedure.

22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm