Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: insider on August 08, 2013, 12:39:58 AM
Title: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: insider on August 08, 2013, 12:39:58 AM
I have been given special permission to start this thread to explore the reasons why the McCanns and Murat were suspected by the Portuguese Police of involvement in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
I will add that this topic is extremely important to the case given what happened to the parents. I expect all posters to stick to the facts and refrain from speculations.
Senior Editor
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 01:13:21 AM
The first one was Mr Murat. The carrier's way of carrying was very tiring, he wasn't heading to a car, so he couldn't be walking very far. At the expected distance was the house of Mrs Murat and her son. Weird. Unfortunately for Mr Murat a "journalist" taking herself for miss Marple denounced him to the LC : he was sneaking and snooping and talking about the daughter, Madeleine's age, he didn't live with. 3 TP swore he was next to the 5A which he denied. Weird. Then UK profilers found him as a model of perpetrator. He was having an affair in a sort of ménage à trois situation. Weird. No, I don't think that at that point the issue was to find an abductor at all cost, I think the issue was to find a little girl in good state which meant every second was precious.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Matthew Wyse on August 08, 2013, 01:18:57 AM
And about time to insider. The reasons why they became suspects are many, it could have turned out so differently had the forensics following the dog reactions come back as a match to Madeleine.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: insider on August 08, 2013, 01:35:04 AM
The suspicion that the McCanns had an involvement in the disappearance of their 3 year old daughter started very early on in the investigation according to Gonçalo Amaral the coordinating detective in the case. As early as 24 hours following the disappearance he was secretly concerned that the parents story just did not add up.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Matthew Wyse on August 08, 2013, 01:54:50 AM
The suspicion that the McCanns had an involvement in the disappearance of their 3 year old daughter started very early on in the investigation according to Gonçalo Amaral the coordinating detective in the case. As early as 24 hours following the disappearance he was secretly concerned that the parents story just did not add up.
Wasn't there much consternation among the PJ detectives that the initial group statements conflicted whereas the later ones were so obviously the result of collusion ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: insider on August 08, 2013, 02:08:39 AM
Wasn't there much consternation among the PJ detectives that the initial group statements conflicted whereas the later ones were so obviously the result of collusion ?
That's exactly how it played out. Amaral had his suspicions but he writes in his book of the event that although he was concerned he dared not report it to his bosses.
One of the factors which influenced the PJ was the absence of any incriminating fingerprints on the shutters or footsteps on the window sill of the childrens bedroom. They were convinced that no abductor could have entered or exited that window which left the parents story lacking credibility.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 02:09:45 AM
"It's a badly told story" (a story to sleep standing we say in French) tells to the Diário de Noticias a PJ source taken aback by the statements of the TP9. On the following day (the 5th) the DN publishes an article with this subtitle : "the parents speak of breaking in, the GNR denies".
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: insider on August 08, 2013, 02:49:00 AM
"It's a badly told story" (a story to sleep standing we say in French) tells to the Diário de Noticias a PJ source taken aback by the statements of the TP9. On the following day (the 5th) the DN publishes an article with this subtitle : "the parents speak of breaking in, the GNR denies".
The 'breaking in' claim can be explained very easily and put down to a lack of knowledge by the McCanns as to how window shutters worked in Portuguese apartments. They didn't know that they could be lifted from the outside. They also didn't know that they could be locked in the down position but still be raised sufficiently to allow some air and light through them without compromising security.
Had they been informed the outcome might well have been so different.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on August 08, 2013, 06:51:18 AM
I also think one of the things that alerted Amaral was that within a few hours of the diappearance Gerry put the point of entry for himself and Kate as the front door, which Kate contradicted and then Gerry subsequently changed.
Amaral could not accept that you could get such a fundamental detail wrong so close to the event itself.
I believe he thought that the only explanation could be that they were actually trying to create a point of entry AFTER they open shutter story didn't fly.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 08, 2013, 07:32:34 AM
I also think one of the things that alerted Amaral was that within a few hours of the diappearance Gerry put the point of entry for himself and Kate as the front door, which Kate contradicted and then Gerry subsequently changed.
Amaral could not accept that you could get such a fundamental detail wrong so close to the event itself.
I believe he thought that the only explanation could be that they were actually trying to create a point of entry AFTER they open shutter story didn't fly.
Amaral had assumed that Gerry was lying about how he entered. But there was little point in Gerry saying that he had entered via the front door, whilst saying that Matt entered via the open patio door all in the same statement. I don't think it occurred to him that there could have been a misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on August 08, 2013, 07:50:08 AM
Amaral had assumed that Gerry was lying about how he entered. But there was little point in Gerry saying that he had entered via the front door, whilst saying that Matt entered via the open patio door all in the same statement. I don't think it occurred to him that there could have been a misunderstanding.
And i think that an asusmption that Gerry was lying would be a valid one, how can you get so spectacularly wrong the door you went in through only 14 hours after the event?
I believe (and i also agree) that Amaral and his team thought they were trying to create entry points to support the ability of an abductor to get in and the inital story for the group was that the entry point was through the patio door and then out through the window for said abductor.
When that didn't fly because of the Wilkins meeting at the bottom of the steps to the patio the 10th May statement then said he didn't go through the front door and it wasn't locked.
To any investigator it is not unreasonable to assume that such fundamental changes and alterations to statements concerning entry and exit points coupled with locked and unlocked would raise suspicion.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 08, 2013, 09:12:10 AM
And about time to insider. The reasons why they became suspects are many, it could have turned out so differently had the forensics following the dog reactions come back as a match to Madeleine.
But the forensics did not show a match for Madeleine. Which would have told a professional policeman something.
Instead, it seems Amaral et al chose to ignore the negative result, and indeed the PJ also chose to lie in the "arguido" interviews. Questions 43 to 47, and particularly 47, crossed the line.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 08, 2013, 09:15:34 AM
But the forensics did not show a match for Madeleine. Which would have told a professional policeman something.
Instead, it seems Amaral et al chose to ignore the negative result, and indeed the PJ also chose to lie in the "arguido" interviews. Questions 43 to 47, and particularly 47, crossed the line.
The forensics were inconclusive, which is not quite the same thing. Probably due to contamination of the crime scene, by the Mccanns and associates, and subsequently.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 08, 2013, 09:35:40 AM
The forensics were inconclusive, which is not quite the same thing. Probably due to contamination of the crime scene, by the Mccanns and associates, and subsequently.
The apartment being relet in the meantime may not have helped.
and as for the car - are you of the opinion that the PJ were right to lie to the "suspects"?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 08, 2013, 09:47:19 AM
I have been given special permission to start this thread to explore the reasons why the McCanns and Murat were suspected by the Portuguese Police of involvement in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
Why do you need special permission to start any thread. That sounds like total bunkum.
Please do explain.
There should be no reason on a forum for "special permission" to be needed to start threads. Why is that now the case here?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 08, 2013, 10:00:56 AM
The forensics were inconclusive, which is not quite the same thing. Probably due to contamination of the crime scene, by the Mccanns and associates, and subsequently.
The crucial point about the reasons that the McCanns and indeed Murat were made arguidos is not the original reasons but the fact that none of these reasons were ever proven to be significant or evidence against the McCanns.
As the Public Prosecutor stated:
Quote
"... in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media - before the police - was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous."
There is no question in his mind about things being inconclusive. The dog alerts simply were not ratified.
It was because none of the initial suspicions as outlined by the Prosecutor were consolidated that he was able to declare that there was no evidence of any crime by any of the arguidos.
The initial suspicions were it seems not founded in reality.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 10:10:03 AM
Of course they do. But falling short of deliberate misrepresentation. The PJ were claiming something which they knew they had not got.
Unless their aim was merely to get a confession.
Two possibilities exist as to why the PJ under Amaral's direction lied to the McCanns. Either it was deliberate and cynical misrepresentation of the facts in order to attempt to force a confession. Or it was pure ignorance and inability to understand the forensic reports on the part of the officers concerned and their superiors. Whichever, the fact is that the alerts were not ratified and therefore the unratified alerts (according to the prosecutor) did not constitute evidence against the couple.
If anyone can suggest another possibility then I would be willing to discuss it.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 08, 2013, 10:18:19 AM
Portuguese law changed on the 15th September 2007. Prior to the 15th September, a person could be constituted an "arguido" on suspicion - and without actual evidence.
On September 15 a new procedural penal code was introduced making it necessary for there to be evidence against the citizen before they could be made an arguido.
So after the 15th September it is unlikely the Mccanns could have been made arguidos.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 10:28:02 AM
Portuguese law changed on the 15th September 2007. Prior to the 15th September, a person could be constituted an "arguido" on suspicion - and without actual evidence.
On September 15 a new procedural penal code was introduced making it necessary for there to be evidence against the citizen before they could be made an arguido.
So after the 15th September it is unlikely the Mccanns could have been made arguidos.
Judging from the Prosecutor's claims that there was in fact no evidence against the McCanns and his outline of the reasons why the suspicions did not translate into evidence, I believe you are correct.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 08, 2013, 10:43:04 AM
The 'breaking in' claim can be explained very easily and put down to a lack of knowledge by the McCanns as to how window shutters worked in Portuguese apartments. They didn't know that they could be lifted from the outside. They also didn't know that they could be locked in the down position but still be raised sufficiently to allow some air and light through them without compromising security.
Had they been informed the outcome might well have been so different.
I agree with that.
What I don't understand is why so much store was placed on that initial assumption, not only as proof of wrongdoing, but insistence that she couldn't have been abducted because the first PJ team and various talking heads had decided that an abductor couldn't have entered and exited with the child via that window. I have no idea whether it would have been possible or not. Rebelo and his team did a reconstruction to test the possibility, but I haven't found the conclusion in the files.
For some reason, the simple fact of conveying that assumption to family members (and the initial press coverage) convinced the team that they were lying and had staged a coverup. But if they'd wanted to do that, when not actually jemmy them?
For some reason, the PJ didn't seem to consider that the initial assumption made in the thick of a panic discovery was simply wrong and that there were two other entry/exit points.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 10:44:36 AM
If not arguida, Mrs McCann would have just been a witness and, without a lawyer, would have had to answer to the 48 questions, the first one being decisive. This is why Alipio Ribeiro, the director of the PJ, lamented the precipitation to make them arguidos. BTW here in Portugal the PJ is under the control of the MP.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 08, 2013, 10:49:57 AM
If not arguida, Mrs McCann would have just been a witness and, without a lawyer, would have had to answer to the 48 questions, the first one being decisive. This is why Alipio Ribeiro, the director of the PJ, lamented the precipitation to make them arguidos. BTW here in Portugal the PJ is under the control of the MP.
Your statement betrays a fundamental lack of undertanding of the Portuguese penal code, Anne.
The PJ would not have been able to ask those questions of a witness.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 10:52:33 AM
If not arguida, Mrs McCann would have just been a witness and, without a lawyer, would have had to answer to the 48 questions, the first one being decisive. This is why Alipio Ribeiro, the director of the PJ, lamented the precipitation to make them arguidos. BTW here in Portugal the PJ is under the control of the MP.
Please give a citation to prove your claim that is the reason Alipio Ribeiro lamented the precipitation to make the McCanns arguidos.
There are other possible explanations as to his statement and I, so far, have not seen anything which proves that was the reason he had.
Are you speculating or do you have proof?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 10:56:55 AM
For some reason, the PJ didn't seem to consider that the initial assumption made in the thick of a panic discovery was simply wrong and that there were two other entry/exit points.
No, there aren't two entry/exit points. The "patio door" isn't a door (so an entry/exit point) as shows its name in Portuguese -- window-door -- : you can pass through it but you can't open and shut it on either side, as you would in the case of a normal door. If you close this window door from the outside, you block it and can't get in again, the mechanism existing only on the inside for obvious reasons of security. This window door was misused by the McCanns, not during day time (Mr McCann would close it behind his family), but at night because, leaving apart burglars, her daughter, who likely would'nt have easily manipulated the mechanism, easily could slide the open door and leave.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 08, 2013, 11:14:16 AM
No, there aren't two entry/exit points. The "patio door" isn't a door (so an entry/exit point) as shows its name in Portuguese -- window-door -- : you can pass through it but you can't open and shut it on either side, as you would in the case of a normal door. If you close this window door from the outside, you block it and can't get in again, the mechanism existing only on the inside for obvious reasons of security. This window door was misused by the McCanns, not during day time (Mr McCann would close it behind his family), but at night because, leaving apart burglars, her daughter, who likely would'nt have easily manipulated the mechanism, easily could slide the open door and leave.
Well, I can only think of a few possibilities in that case:
- Everyone who stated they they had gone in and out that way were lying (with the others and covering up for for the others for some reason); - The door was left very slightly open so as not to engage a locking mechanism; - The sliding glass door (known as French windows) didn't actually lock when it was shut and was different to the ones you are familiar with.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 11:17:49 AM
No, there aren't two entry/exit points. The "patio door" isn't a door (so an entry/exit point) as shows its name in Portuguese -- window-door -- : you can pass through it but you can't open and shut it on either side, as you would in the case of a normal door. If you close this window door from the outside, you block it and can't get in again, the mechanism existing only on the inside for obvious reasons of security. This window door was misused by the McCanns, not during day time (Mr McCann would close it behind his family), but at night because, leaving apart burglars, her daughter, who likely would'nt have easily manipulated the mechanism, easily could slide the open door and leave.
This is utterly ridiculous. The patio door is a door in normal conversation and comment. It is a point of entry and exit. That is the definition as found in Dicionario Priberam.
Pretence that it is not a door cannot explain anything. Pretence that people do not in fact use such doors as a means of exit and entry is counterproductive as everyone knows that people do in fact do that by the simple procedure of making sure that the locking mechanism isn't activated when sliding the door towards the frame.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 08, 2013, 11:18:43 AM
No, there aren't two entry/exit points. The "patio door" isn't a door (so an entry/exit point) as shows its name in Portuguese -- window-door -- : you can pass through it but you can't open and shut it on either side, as you would in the case of a normal door. If you close this window door from the outside, you block it and can't get in again, the mechanism existing only on the inside for obvious reasons of security. This window door was misused by the McCanns, not during day time (Mr McCann would close it behind his family), but at night because, leaving apart burglars, her daughter, who likely would'nt have easily manipulated the mechanism, easily could slide the open door and leave.
Anne what a load of claptrap. Sorry, but fancy saying that there were not two other entry points.
What are you on, gal? 8(>((
and it clearly contravenes Johns caveat.;
I will add that this topic is extremely important to the case given what happened to the parents. I expect all posters to stick to the facts and refrain from speculations.
Senior Editor
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 08, 2013, 11:28:20 AM
Portuguese law changed on the 15th September 2007. Prior to the 15th September, a person could be constituted an "arguido" on suspicion - and without actual evidence.
On September 15 a new procedural penal code was introduced making it necessary for there to be evidence against the citizen before they could be made an arguido.
So after the 15th September it is unlikely the Mccanns could have been made arguidos.
I find this very interesting. Seems Amaral had to rush to get them "in his clutches"?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 11:30:00 AM
When will this "material which he intends to post" actually be posted?
Or is that top secret too?
The more I read here of the decisions and games being played by moderators the more I think this entire forum is becoming a laughing stock.
Now you as senior editor are telling us that at some future date this moderator who goes by the devilishly clever name of Insider will be revealing some kind of devastating information which he has had to get you to OK in advance but which he hasn't bothered to post as yet, preferring to make the mystery seem ever more intriguing.
I doubt that even Redblossom would have come up with such a forum game.
Good points, gilet. John, has this information that "Insider" has had to gain permission to post, been passed to the police? Why all the mystery and intrigue? Are you trying to imply that Insider really is an "Insider" on this case?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 11:36:52 AM
Please give a citation to prove your claim that is the reason Alipio Ribeiro lamented the precipitation to make the McCanns arguidos.
There are other possible explanations as to his statement and I, so far, have not seen anything which proves that was the reason he had.
Are you speculating or do you have proof?
No proof, but is it necessary ? Thanks to being an arguida Mrs McCann managed to escape answering crucial questions (some of the 48). I'd be amazed if it didn't pass AR's mind. Actually he never said the decision was wrong, but possibly precipitated. The consequences were disproportionate : The UK media interpreted it as denying GA's initiative (though the MP decided it) and proving the McCanns had erroneously be made arguidos, hence were innocent.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 08, 2013, 11:39:21 AM
No, there aren't two entry/exit points. The "patio door" isn't a door (so an entry/exit point) as shows its name in Portuguese -- window-door -- : you can pass through it but you can't open and shut it on either side, as you would in the case of a normal door. If you close this window door from the outside, you block it and can't get in again, the mechanism existing only on the inside for obvious reasons of security. This window door was misused by the McCanns, not during day time (Mr McCann would close it behind his family), but at night because, leaving apart burglars, her daughter, who likely would'nt have easily manipulated the mechanism, easily could slide the open door and leave.
If it couldn't be opened from the outside once it was shut, what was the point of Gerry locking it and going out via the front door during the day?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Redblossom on August 08, 2013, 11:40:07 AM
When will this "material which he intends to post" actually be posted?
Or is that top secret too?
The more I read here of the decisions and games being played by moderators the more I think this entire forum is becoming a laughing stock.
Now you as senior editor are telling us that at some future date this moderator who goes by the devilishly clever name of Insider will be revealing some kind of devastating information which he has had to get you to OK in advance but which he hasn't bothered to post as yet, preferring to make the mystery seem ever more intriguing.
I doubt that even Redblossom would have come up with such a forum game.
LOL cant resist swiping
Rolly eyes
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 11:42:35 AM
AnneGuedes claims to know that is not the reason why Alipio Ribeiro called the action hasty.
Unfortunately she has failed to provide any evidence for her claim.
I have asked for a citation which proves her claim but so far nothing.
Always aggressive, Gilet ! Incredible ! Are you dreaming ? Do posters have to answer you hastily ? Possibly hasty decision by the MP (and the rub was between the MP and the PJ direction).
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 11:43:34 AM
No proof, but is it necessary ? Thanks to being an arguida Mrs McCann managed to escape answering crucial questions (some of the 48). I'd be amazed if it didn't pass AR's mind. Actually he never said the decision was wrong, but possibly precipitated. The consequences were disproportionate : The UK media interpreted it as denying GA's initiative (though the MP decided it) and proving the McCanns had erroneously be made arguidos, hence were innocent.
Aha! So you are simply guessing as to what Alipio Ribeiro believed.
The other alternative which you simply dismiss is equally probable. Indeed it would appear to me to be far more probable in that the hasty action in making the McCanns arguidos without any ratifiable evidence has made the Portuguese police system look rather incompetent.
The initiative as you call it to make the McCanns arguidos in such a manner was either based on a cynical decision to use the dog alerts knowing that they had not been ratified with forensics or an ignorant decision based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the forensic conclusions.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 11:45:09 AM
If it couldn't be opened from the outside once it was shut, what was the point of Gerry locking it and going out via the front door during the day?
Ask him ! He also ignored that you could double lock the door (the only real one) from the inside. Perhaps he wanted to double lock the door from the outside.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Redblossom on August 08, 2013, 11:45:33 AM
Forensics, dud or not,are never the only reason to make people suspects, simple as that
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 11:46:55 AM
Always aggressive, Gilet ! Incredible ! Are you dreaming ? Do posters have to answer you hastily ? Possibly hasty decision by the MP (and the rub was between the MP and the PJ direction).
There is nothing aggressive in my post. Your interpretation of the fact that I have asked for evidence from you of a claim you made as being aggression is most interesting, particularly in light of the fact that you have since shown that you have in fact got no evidence and are just guessing.
Your final sentence does not make any sense whatsoever in English. Once again you show why we should be horrified that you had any role to play in the work of translating the files into English.
Please rephrase it and I will gladly respond.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 11:49:32 AM
Forensics, dud or not,are never the only reason to make people suspects, simple as that
The problem with your comment is that Amaral has told us this was a fundamental point on which the case was moved in that direction and why the McCanns were made arguidos.
As I have pointed out that was either a cynical decision made knowing the alerts from the dogs had not been ratified or was a decision made through ignorance and a complete misunderstanding of the forensic results.
Do you have any other suggestion as to what the motive for this hasty decision could have been?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 11:53:41 AM
Aha! So you are simply guessing as to what Alipio Ribeiro believed.
The other alternative which you simply dismiss is equally probable. Indeed it would appear to me to be far more probable in that the hasty action in making the McCanns arguidos without any ratifiable evidence has made the Portuguese police system look rather incompetent.
The initiative as you call it to make the McCanns arguidos in such a manner was either based on a cynical decision to use the dog alerts knowing that they had not been ratified with forensics or an ignorant decision based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the forensic conclusions.
You'd better read the AG report about the requirement to make the McCanns arguidos (it was to protect them, if I may remind you). It's very clear. I posted it yesterday, the nurse evidently claimed that I forged it ! If you're interested in the AR polemic, there are documents on the web, study particularly Prof Marcelo Ribeiro de Sousa's sayings about the topic. Mr Amaral had nothing to do with this, in spite of what the UK media pretended. The conflict was between the MP and the PJ direction.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 08, 2013, 11:54:35 AM
That's exactly how it played out. Amaral had his suspicions but he writes in his book of the event that although he was concerned he dared not report it to his bosses.
One of the factors which influenced the PJ was the absence of any incriminating fingerprints on the shutters or footsteps on the window sill of the childrens bedroom. They were convinced that no abductor could have entered or exited that window which left the parents story lacking credibility.
Would gloves normally leave incriminating fingerprints, do you think?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 11:57:11 AM
I didn't know but I learnt that gloves leave marks, of course anonymous.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 08, 2013, 11:58:25 AM
Ask him ! He also ignored that you could double lock the door (the only real one) from the inside. Perhaps he wanted to double lock the door from the outside.
Are you feeling quite well Anne?
The front door could be double locked from the inside (without a key) or from the outside (with a key - an extra turn would double lock). The only problem is that the door could also be opened, using the staff key, even when double locked from the inside. As was quite widely reported by others at the time.
Incidentally, Amaral ruled out the use of the front door in his documentary because "nobody was authorised to have a key". Which gives something of the measure of the man.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 12:03:14 PM
The front door could be double locked from the inside (without a key) or from the outside (with a key - an extra turn would double lock). The only problem is that the door could also be opened, using the staff key, even when double locked from the inside. As was quite widely reported by others at the time.
Incidentally, Amaral ruled out the use of the front door in his documentary because "nobody was authorised to have a key". Which gives something of the measure of the man.
Are you feeling well, Jean-Pierre ? The entrance/exit door couldn't be double locked from the inside without a key.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 12:06:26 PM
You'd better read the AG report about the requirement to make the McCanns arguidos (it was to protect them, if I may remind you). It's very clear. I posted it yesterday, the nurse evidently claimed that I forged it ! If you're interested in the AR polemic, there are documents on the web, study particularly Prof Marcelo Ribeiro de Sousa's sayings about the topic. Mr Amaral had nothing to do with this, in spite of what the UK media pretended. The conflict was between the MP and the PJ direction.
To be perfectly frank it matters not who was responsible. The decision was hasty and till you provide evidence for your claim (not simply names of people who may or may not have said something about it) then my interpretation for that hasty decision is equally as valid as yours.
And my reason for including the name of Amaral in that post is because it was him who claimed that this was the fundamental reason that the direction of the case changed and the McCanns were made arguidos.
You still have not addressed the issue as to whether the use of the forensics was a cynical one or an ignorant one though.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 12:15:48 PM
Actually imo Alipio Ribeiro was very right to say the arguido operation had been hasty. But it was very wrong to say it after 5 months and moreover when the investigation was stagnant mainly because of the rogatory odisseia. The investigators were desperate to achieve something and felt the case would likely be archived. The MP had decided the McCanns wouldn't be interviewed again (what for ? Silence ?) and might have foreseen the reconstruction would be refused.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 08, 2013, 12:35:30 PM
To be perfectly frank it matters not who was responsible. The decision was hasty and till you provide evidence for your claim (not simply names of people who may or may not have said something about it) then my interpretation for that hasty decision is equally as valid as yours.
And my reason for including the name of Amaral in that post is because it was him who claimed that this was the fundamental reason that the direction of the case changed and the McCanns were made arguidos.
You still have not addressed the issue as to whether the use of the forensics was a cynical one or an ignorant one though.
The MP was responsible for the decision. It matters, yes. This is reflected in the AG report. Read it. Mr Amaral explains in his book the positive points of the arguido status. The McCanns had asked to be assistants in the process, which would have given them about the same rights. Among them there is a right to ask for interventions. Did the McCanns use it ? The dogs episode was indeed a change of orientation in the investigation, as noted by Mrs McCann in her book and dimmed by Mr McCann in his blog. But at the origin of this change was Mr Rainbow who suggested the McCanns should be seriously investigated for the reasons you know. This is why Prof Harrison was solicited.. To answer your question about the use of the forensic, I think it was a big mistake of the PJ, neither cynical (no PJ job) nor ignorant (there's a medico legal institute to answer questions) but naive. The implication (a body in a car) was highly implausible, but the truth was inadmissible for them and this explains that. It was a big mistake because it relieved the McCanns' tension (they knew Madeleine's body never was in that car) and gave them strength to mock the alerts of Eddie in the flat.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 12:41:56 PM
Fair enough, Anne. However, the fact remains that the door could be double locked. But also that anyone with a staff key could unlock the door.
Which does rather trash Amarals triumphal "Provas Finais" in his documentary.
A staff key is possible. I find this a rather complicated solution (steal the key without being noticed, copy it in a hurry in Lagos, put it back, sounds Enid Blyton), if the window door wasn't closed, or was it ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 12:51:14 PM
Actually imo Alipio Ribeiro was very right to say the arguido operation had been hasty. But it was very wrong to say it after 5 months and moreover when the investigation was stagnant mainly because of the rogatory odisseia. The investigators were desperate to achieve something and felt the case would likely be archived. The MP had decided the McCanns wouldn't be interviewed again (what for ? Silence ?) and might have foreseen the reconstruction would be refused.
So now you are not only making guesses for yourself but guessing what the MP might have been guessing. That's quite an 'odisseia' (oddyssey in English). I wonder where it will lead? Cloud cuckoo land maybe?
Desperation on the part of the investigators is no reason either to cynically ignore the forensic results and to press ahead with making these people arguidos as you seem to be suggesting.
By the way, why do you use Portuguese words in English sentences? Would you like me to recommend an online dictionary? Or is it not lack of a dictionary but some other motive you have for such a weird kind of action?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 12:53:24 PM
The 'breaking in' claim can be explained very easily and put down to a lack of knowledge by the McCanns as to how window shutters worked in Portuguese apartments. They didn't know that they could be lifted from the outside. They also didn't know that they could be locked in the down position but still be raised sufficiently to allow some air and light through them without compromising security.
Had they been informed the outcome might well have been so different.
There's nothing in the McCann statements about "break-in". The forced shutters were the version for the family and friends in the UK. Mr McCann had a certain experience of those shutters since he broke his bedroom's ones on the first night, though a board in the flat says how to use these shutters and what you shouldn't do with them. These shutters can be in part lifted from the outside but fall and possibly break as soon as you release them, because you can't roll them without using the inside belt. I don't think these shutters were the modern ones who effectively are lockable.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Redblossom on August 08, 2013, 12:57:08 PM
The problem with your comment is that Amaral has told us this was a fundamental point on which the case was moved in that direction and why the McCanns were made arguidos.
As I have pointed out that was either a cynical decision made knowing the alerts from the dogs had not been ratified or was a decision made through ignorance and a complete misunderstanding of the forensic results.
Do you have any other suggestion as to what the motive for this hasty decision could have been?
Yes, a turning point, but not something to make them arguidos just out of the blue, they had their suspicions beforehand no? Even if nothing stuck in the end. British police normally make very quick movements in making people of interest or suspects or arrested on suspicion on....4/5 months is pushing the boat a little in comparison....and which also supports the fact that despite any suspicions it was treated as an abduction for quite a long time
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 01:02:15 PM
There's nothing in the McCann statements about "break-in". The forced shutters were the version for the family and friends in the UK. Mr McCann had a certain experience of those shutters since he broke his bedroom's ones on the first night, though a board in the flat says how to use these shutters and what you shouldn't do with them. These shutters can be in part lifted from the outside but fall and possibly break as soon as you release them, because you can't roll them without using the inside belt. I don't think these shutters were the modern ones who effectively are lockable.
The section I have underlined in your post is very interesting.
It shows that you have a preset notion of the reason for those claims.
Perhaps they were simply an initial reaction from an extremely anxious parent about a situation he wasn't fully comprehending and transmitted as such to the family in the UK who were in no position to verify things for themselves. And perhaps by the time the interviews took place the following day, then the situation regarding the window/shutters was clearer.
Your presumption that the McCanns, who come from a country quite unused to shutters of this nature, should simply read a board which you tell us explains everything is pretty silly. In the blind panic of a child going missing do you really think that people might not get confused over things which they are unfamiliar with?
Your post shows no real understanding at all of what might have been happening that night. It is devoid of any recognition that you are posting without emotional involvement and with the benefit of hindsight.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 01:10:55 PM
Yes, a turning point, but not something to make them arguidos just out of the blue, they had their suspicions beforehand no? Even if nothing stuck in the end. British police normally make very quick movements in making people of interest or suspects or arrested on suspicion on....4/5 months is pushing the boat a little in comparison....and which also supports the fact that despite any suspicions it was treated as an abduction for quite a long time
In fact, it was extra-ordinary to imagine people, educated ones, lied not to cover an homicide, but the disposal of a body as the result of an accident. Two desolated parents (no doubt about that) stated with discrepancies and claimed the abduction hypothesis as the only possible one because "they knew", though evidently they were not there (as they illogically lamented...). What for ? This is the mystery. But having no evident answer shouldn't be a reason to reject the involvement. Lee Rainbow, pragmatically, said it had to be investigated.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 01:15:16 PM
In fact, it was extra-ordinary to imagine people, educated ones, lied not to cover an homicide, but the disposal of a body as the result of an accident. Two desolated parents (no doubt about that) stated with discrepancies and claimed the abduction hypothesis as the only possible one because "they knew", though evidently they were not there (as they illogically lamented...). What for ? This is the mystery. But having no evident answer shouldn't be a reason to reject the involvement. Lee Rainbow, pragmatically, said it had to be investigated.
But you are forgetting that it was investigated. And the result was that the McCanns were released from their arguido status because there was no evidence against them.
And that it has subsequently been investigated and the Scotland Yard team have stated that neither the McCanns nor their friends are suspects or even persons of interest in the case.
Such forgetfulness on your part is quite alarming.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 01:18:38 PM
The forced shutters were the version for the family and friends in the UK. The version of Mr McCann to the PJ at the same time is "open shutters".
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 01:25:49 PM
The forced shutters were the version for the family and friends in the UK. The version of Mr McCann to the PJ at the same time is "open shutters".
And once again you are completely ignoring the post I made earlier with a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why in the heat of the panic of a missing child the McCanns may have not understood the mechanism of the shutters when talking with family but by the time of the interviews may have become more aware of how they work.
Why are you deliberately ignoring this and posting a suggestion that it might have been two deliberate stories created by the McCanns for different audiences?
Why are you completely unable to grasp that there is for parents an emotional impact when a child goes missing which might cloud your immediate understanding of certain things particularly things as unfamiliar as the mechanism of shutters which you very rarely have any contact with? Why are you unable to recognise that you are posting without that emotional stress and with the benefit of hindsight.
Till you recognise that there are other potential explanations for what you are claiming is so clear cut then you will be seen by readers to be very blinkered in outlook.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 08, 2013, 01:26:07 PM
Of course they should have been investigated, Anne. That is not in dispute, and they were, and AG made his statement.
The fact is that after 15 September 2007, the PJ would not have been able to constiute the McCanns or Murat as Argidos, becuase they did not have any proof of involvement. Of course if they wanted to ask them certain questions (like the 48 questions) then they would not have been able to without the McCanns having arguido right, and for this they would have needed some proof beyond suspicion. (which is an interesting problem for the Portuguese police under the revised penal code - and has a parallel in the UK with the revised "sus" laws.
I have just watched Amaral's documentary / drama again. It is truly dreadful. If he thinks what he has produced is "proof", then god help those investigate by him. As far as I can see, made for one purpose - to make some cash out of the disappearance of a little child.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 01:45:26 PM
The fact is that after 15 September 2007, the PJ would not have been able to constiute the McCanns or Murat as Argidos, becuase they did not have any proof of involvement. Of course if they wanted to ask them certain questions (like the 48 questions) then they would not have been able to without the McCanns having arguido right, and for this they would have needed some proof beyond suspicion.
I don't think they could lift Mr Murat's arguido status but, yes, they wouldn't have given the McCanns the benefice of that status. Now, no, the PJ had the right to interview them separately as witnesses and ask questions like "can you describe exactly what you did when you entered in the flat on the 3rd around 10 ?". Mrs McCann, of course could have lied, this is a right !, but she would have had to answer. Ah, btw, their request to be assistants in the process, which had been accepted, would have remained (the MP suppressed it, judging it was incompatible with the arguido status, in fact it would have mainly be redundant).
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 03:58:49 PM
And i think that an asusmption that Gerry was lying would be a valid one, how can you get so spectacularly wrong the door you went in through only 14 hours after the event?
I believe (and i also agree) that Amaral and his team thought they were trying to create entry points to support the ability of an abductor to get in and the inital story for the group was that the entry point was through the patio door and then out through the window for said abductor.
When that didn't fly because of the Wilkins meeting at the bottom of the steps to the patio the 10th May statement then said he didn't go through the front door and it wasn't locked.
To any investigator it is not unreasonable to assume that such fundamental changes and alterations to statements concerning entry and exit points coupled with locked and unlocked would raise suspicion.
This is the first informal statement (night of the 3rd). The "didn't notice anything strange" of Mr Oldfied at 21:30 does fit with the carrier (observed along the corridor, Silvia Batista noted it was strange) 10 minutes earlier. At about 21.05 – 21.15 Gerald went to the bedroom to see the children, he saw the bedroom door was half way open which he found strange as he thought he had left it pushed to, however he entered and saw the children and saw that the window as well as the shutter were closed. At about 21.20, their friend Jane passed by the apartment (along the corridor of the main entrance) she saw an individual carrying a child who passed descending the road, however she did not recognise this individual, nor the child, only having noticed that the individual appeared to be aged between 30 or 40, had dark hair and light coloured trousers. At about 21.30 their friend Mat entered the apartment by the back door (patio door) he did not enter the bedroom and only saw the twins sleeping, he did not notice anything strange. At the same place, at about 22.00 Kate discovered the facts and the consequent disappearance of her daughter Madeleine, at this moment the window being wide open as well as the curtains and the shutter.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 08, 2013, 04:16:49 PM
Well actually it was very sensible of insider to get permission to open this topic given the material which he intends to post.
I have added a caveat at the beginning of the thread.
Where is this material, John? The material that a Mod on here asked special permission to start a thread for.
Or is it a ploy to keep people tuned in? This is a missing child, not an episode of Downton Abbey.
Again, has this information been passed to the police? And should Mods be doing this kind of thing, making mysterious hints about information then vanishing?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on August 08, 2013, 05:05:13 PM
Anne, why do you feel the need to keep using Silvia Batista as though she's an important part of the investigation?. She isn't, she's a maintenance manager, and why the hell outside people, with no qualifcations to do the job, were allowed to do PJ work is beyond me.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 05:20:32 PM
Silvia Batista functioned as a translator all night. AFAIK nobody complained, or do you have other information ? I doubt you can call a professional translator after midnight in the UK without life or death motive.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 08, 2013, 05:21:10 PM
Whose statement is that Anne?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 05:35:40 PM
This is a report made by the PJ in the 5A, when listening to Mr McCann and thanks to Silvia Batista's go-between.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on August 08, 2013, 05:48:15 PM
Your statement betrays a fundamental lack of undertanding of the Portuguese penal code, Anne.
The PJ would not have been able to ask those questions of a witness.
Which questions and why ? The first question for example ? The witness isn't expected to tell the truth ! See the interviews in August, off the record.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on August 08, 2013, 05:52:31 PM
Silvia Batista functioned as a translator all night. AFAIK nobody complained, or do you have other information ? I doubt you can call a professional translator after midnight in the UK without life or death motive.
Fair enough, but why was she used in the following days? As I have said before, there's not one professional translator listed, as far as I can see. She was in the apartment during the dog searches, too, why?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 06:07:27 PM
The forced shutters were the version for the family and friends in the UK. The version of Mr McCann to the PJ at the same time is "open shutters".
At about 22.00 Kate discovered the facts and the consequent disappearance of her daughter Madeleine, at this moment the window being wide open as well as the curtains and the shutter. (3/4 May night) Michelle Thompson : Kate continued that when she entered the apartment via the patio doors, a breeze hit her in the face as if a door or window was open. When she entered the children’s room, the window was open, the blind had been forced and Madeleine had disappeared. Jill Renwick : They were just watching the hotel room and going back every half-hour and the shutters had been broken open and they had gone into the room and taken Madeleine Double standard.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 08, 2013, 06:21:31 PM
Fair enough, but why was she used in the following days? As I have said before, there's not one professional translator listed, as far as I can see. She was in the apartment during the dog searches, too, why?
Used as a translator in the following days ? I had no idea. Where ? Why ? Silvia Batista "is noted as the holder of the keys to the apartment and who was present solely to open doors." http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post13722.html#p13722
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 06:28:25 PM
Anne, why do you feel the need to keep using Silvia Batista as though she's an important part of the investigation?. She isn't, she's a maintenance manager, and why the hell outside people, with no qualifcations to do the job, were allowed to do PJ work is beyond me.
If Silvia Batista was allowed to do any kind of investigative work that is a clear indication of the incomptetence of the person coordinating the Police actions.
Am I right in recalling that it was Silvia Batista who was seen sprawling over a chair in one of the dog videos? Or was that some other OC employee?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on August 08, 2013, 06:37:58 PM
If Silvia Batista was allowed to do any kind of investigative work that is a clear indication of the incomptetence of the person coordinating the Police actions.
Am I right in recalling that it was Silvia Batista who was seen sprawling over a chair in one of the dog videos? Or was that some other OC employee?
Odd isn't it Gilet? Yes she was the one sitting at the table, when the dog went round her feet!
How were the PJ to know, she wasn't involved in the abduction? Stranger things have happened!
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 06:48:23 PM
Odd isn't it Gilet? Yes she was the one sitting at the table, when the dog went round her feet!
It is a disgrace, not just odd. A definite sign that the coordinator was not coordinating properly or there would be no need to involve amateurs to do the work.
And no sign of any customary protective clothing, not that it would have made a blind bit of difference after the apartment had been repeatedly let and cleaned since the disappearance.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 08, 2013, 07:04:13 PM
It is a disgrace, not just odd. A definite sign that the coordinator was not coordinating properly or there would be no need to involve amateurs to do the work.
And no sign of any customary protective clothing, not that it would have made a blind bit of difference after the apartment had been repeatedly let and cleaned since the disappearance.
she was in charge of the keys as well, wasn't she?
Anne
Quote
Used as a translator in the following days ? I had no idea. Where ? Why ? Silvia Batista "is noted as the holder of the keys to the apartment and who was present solely to open doors."http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post13722.html#p13722
She could have had a motive for changing statements. Not saying she did, but she should be part of the investigation, as the one who held the keys
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 08, 2013, 07:14:40 PM
she was in charge of the keys as well, wasn't she?
AnneShe could have had a motive for changing statements. Not saying she did, but she should be part of the investigation, as the one who held the keys
It is very odd that Amaral simply dismisses the idea of other keys being relevant to the case as not worthy of consideration. Another failing in the investigation which I hope Scotland Yard have looked at carefully. Anyone (including staff) who had access to keys for that apartment should have been a focus for investigation not used as an amateur plod and certainly should not have been present when the dogs were working. Open the doors but do not enter the premises and corrupt the crime scene further.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on August 08, 2013, 07:38:56 PM
It is very odd that Amaral simply dismisses the idea of other keys being relevant to the case as not worthy of consideration. Another failing in the investigation which I hope Scotland Yard have looked at carefully. Anyone (including staff) who had access to keys for that apartment should have been a focus for investigation not used as an amateur plod and certainly should not have been present when the dogs were working. Open the doors but do not enter the premises and corrupt the crime scene further.
All Maintenance workers had access to the safe, in the garage where the keys were kept. Sylvia was responsible for them, as was her husband. Look how many people are shown on the video's, not wearing protective clothing, including Grime, in the apartment shots.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: insider on August 08, 2013, 10:55:37 PM
Maybe now we can get back to the thread discussion about the reasons why the mccanns and murat were designated as arguidos or official suspects by coordinator amaral and his team. Appears SY want me to do their work for them!! @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 08, 2013, 11:23:13 PM
Quote
Maintenance workers had access to the safe, in the garage where the keys were kept. Sylvia was responsible for them, as was her husband. Look how many people are shown on the video's, not wearing protective clothing, including Grime, in the apartment shots.
Three good points there DCI 8@??)(
but seems mod Insider wants to take us away from them
Quote
Maybe now we can get back to the thread discussion about the reasons why the mccanns and murat were designated as arguidos or official suspects by coordinator amaral and his team. Appears SY want me to do their work for them!! @)(++(* @)(++(*
I wonder why?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: insider on August 08, 2013, 11:26:07 PM
Remind me Sadie before you go off topic again.... Didn't Gerry claim in his first statement with the PJ that he used the front door but later changed his mind and said he used the patio door?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 08, 2013, 11:35:25 PM
Remind me Sadie before you go off topic again.... Didn't Gerry claim in his first statement with the PJ that he used the front door but later changed his mind and said he used the patio door?
Change of topic there Insider. Not allowed
The thought police will be on to you. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on August 09, 2013, 08:02:03 AM
But you are forgetting that it was investigated. And the result was that the McCanns were released from their arguido status because there was no evidence against them.
And that it has subsequently been investigated and the Scotland Yard team have stated that neither the McCanns nor their friends are suspects or even persons of interest in the case.
Such forgetfulness on your part is quite alarming.
Deary me, you just aren't grapsing it are you?
The McCann's had not been fully investigated though, had they? The investigation was incomplete because they refused to co-operate right at the very point that the veracity and truthfulness of what they had said they had done that night could be tested by the way of a reconstruction.
Their hiring of Pinochet's extradition lawyers, and the spurious excuses given by their friends, shows they really didn't want to go back to do that reconstruction, to test their statements and actions.
So no evidence was found against them (in the Prosecutor's mind) in the parts of the investigation that was completed, BUT they refused to take part in one area of the reconstruction aimed at testing their statements.
Had they complied with that request to go back for the reconstruction, as a starting point, for keeping Rebelo's investigation going, then you may have a point.
However given the fact that they bailed out of the investigation right at the time it was specifically looking at their truthfulness, then your point is not valid.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 09, 2013, 10:47:49 AM
The section I have underlined in your post is very interesting.
It shows that you have a preset notion of the reason for those claims.
Perhaps they were simply an initial reaction from an extremely anxious parent about a situation he wasn't fully comprehending and transmitted as such to the family in the UK who were in no position to verify things for themselves. And perhaps by the time the interviews took place the following day, then the situation regarding the window/shutters was clearer.
Your presumption that the McCanns, who come from a country quite unused to shutters of this nature, should simply read a board which you tell us explains everything is pretty silly. In the blind panic of a child going missing do you really think that people might not get confused over things which they are unfamiliar with?
Your post shows no real understanding at all of what might have been happening that night. It is devoid of any recognition that you are posting without emotional involvement and with the benefit of hindsight.
Gerry had already tried the shutters and knew they did not have to be forced, broken or jemmied. He did this, we are lead to believe, before he ever spoke to a family member so why is he and Kate telling everyone who will listen a rather dishonest tale of broken shutters ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 09, 2013, 11:26:58 AM
Gerry had already tried the shutters and knew they did not have to be forced, broken or jemmied. He did this, we are lead to believe, before he ever spoke to a family member so why is he and Kate telling everyone who will listen a rather dishonest tale of broken shutters ?
How do you know that was his conclusion? Are you simply speculating again or can you point to that conclusion in his statement?
If he had found the shutters were already partly open how on earth can you presume that he did not believe that the mechanism had failed because of a recent forcing of them? You can only do that by speculating.
The fact that you (like others) are unable to appreciate that the reaction of a man in the first minutes after his child has gone missing, when talking to close family may be a little confused as to what precisely has happened and that with the benefit of a few hours of reflection he may realise his initial conclusions, made in the panic of the moment, were not the only ones or even were incorrect is a sign that you have no willingness to really examine the case with an open mind. You have already determined the motive for his actions and cannot contemplate that the emotion of such a moment can cloud judgement for a time.
Fortunately for all potential suspects the police in most jurisdictions actually understand far better than some posters the psychology of such situations and do not presume that every single phrase uttered which is later shown to be mistaken is automatically a lie.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 09, 2013, 12:11:30 PM
Gerry had already tried the shutters and knew they did not have to be forced, broken or jemmied. He did this, we are lead to believe, before he ever spoke to a family member so why is he and Kate telling everyone who will listen a rather dishonest tale of broken shutters ?
How do you even know whether he used the word jemmied or broken shutters?
At that early stage, knowing that they had left the window and shutters locked (they thought) he might well have believed the abductor/s forced their way in thru the shutters and said exactly that.
Via the "whispering game" mentioned before, as the news was passed from family member to family member, the word "forced" became "jemmied". Information via passed word gets changed all the time. Surely you know that?
You are merely speculating, as are all the Mccann sceptics.
Time to get your mind in order, Faith. One does not apportion blame on speculation, or myths, alone.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: gilet on August 09, 2013, 12:43:34 PM
How do you even know whether he used the word jemmied or broken shutters?
At that early stage, knowing that they had left the window and shutters locked (they thought) he might well have believed the abductor/s forced their way in thru the shutters and said exactly that.
Via the "whispering game" mentioned before, as the news was passed from family member to family member, the word "forced" became "jemmied". Information via passed word gets changed all the time. Surely you know that?
You are merely speculating, as are all the Mccann sceptics.
Time to get your mind in order, Faith. One does not apportion blame on speculation, or myths, alone.
Yes, the inability of certain posters to allow for such matters is very telling.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 09, 2013, 02:34:55 PM
Amaral might have been stood down by this point in the saga but another reason why suspicions were targeted towards the McCanns was down to Martin Smith. When he saw images of Gerry McCann carrying one of the twins down the steps of the aircraft which brought them back to England he was immediately reminded of images of what he had seen in Praia da Luz some months earlier. He was so sure he went to the police and voiced his suspicions. Had Gerry McCann not had an alibi for 10pm that night I fear he would have had some serious questions to answer.
It should always be remembered that the McCanns were the last known people to see Madeleine alive which puts them firmly at the forefront in any missing child investigation.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 09, 2013, 02:42:02 PM
Amaral might have been stood down by this point in the saga but another reason why suspicions were targeted towards the McCanns was down to Martin Smith. When he saw images of Gerry McCann carrying one of the twins down the steps of the aircraft which brought them back to England he was immediately reminded of images of what he had seen in Praia da Luz some months earlier. He was so sure he went to the police and voiced his suspicions. Had Gerry McCann not had an alibi for 10pm that night I fear he would have had some serious questions to answer.
Well that would have been a potential gross injustice, wouldn't it, Angelo?
Lucky so many people were able to vouch for Gerry.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Redblossom on August 09, 2013, 02:45:38 PM
How do you even know whether he used the word jemmied or broken shutters?
At that early stage, knowing that they had left the window and shutters locked (they thought) he might well have believed the abductor/s forced their way in thru the shutters and said exactly that.
Via the "whispering game" mentioned before, as the news was passed from family member to family member, the word "forced" became "jemmied". Information via passed word gets changed all the time. Surely you know that?
You are merely speculating, as are all the Mccann sceptics.
Time to get your mind in order, Faith. One does not apportion blame on speculation, or myths, alone.
There can be no *whispering campaign* if each individual was quoted in the papers as saying they were told personally by the mccanns x y z and their words quoted in inverted commas! the quotes have been put here many a time.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Matthew Wyse on August 09, 2013, 02:54:05 PM
Well that would have been a potential gross injustice, wouldn't it, Angelo?
Lucky so many people were able to vouch for Gerry.
His presence at the apartment just seconds before a child is seen being carried away yet he claims to have not seen anything could very well be viewed as suspicious.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 09, 2013, 03:00:36 PM
Robert Murat was put in the frame when some of the tapas 9 claimed to have seen him lurking around the resort on the night that Madeleine disappeared. The fact that Tanner saw the carrier walking in the direction of the villa he shared with his mother didn't help.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 09, 2013, 03:11:27 PM
There can be no *whispering campaign* if each individual was quoted in the papers as saying they were told personally by the mccanns x y z and their words quoted in inverted commas! the quotes have been put here many a time.
The newspapers !
You love the red-tops don't you?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Redblossom on August 09, 2013, 03:18:37 PM
then you or any one can never quote them again as indication of anything at all...it is generally accepted if they quote a source and quote their speech directly with inverted commas it is acceptable...thats all...even if you dont like it
Even your mate gilet quoted a upi source today which only printed that SY had SAID something with no quotation marks or a name or anything, but derided other papers which said SY had said different @)(++(*
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on August 09, 2013, 03:32:01 PM
Robert Murat was put in the frame when some of the tapas 9 claimed to have seen him lurking around the resort on the night that Madeleine disappeared. The fact that Tanner saw the carrier walking in the direction of the villa he shared with his mother didn't help.
You are wrong Angelo. Robert Murat didn't share the villa with his mother, he lived at the same address but in a separate house.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 09, 2013, 03:42:42 PM
You are wrong Angelo. Robert Murat didn't share the villa with his mother, he lived at the same address but in a separate house.
Apparently Mrs Murat spent the entire evening with Robert and they had dinner together before retiring. If that doesn't constitute 'sharing' then I don't know what does. ?{)(**
Newspaper reports must always be taken with a large pinch of salt girls. My own belief is that they are only really useful as chip paper and then for lighting the fire. The Leveson Inquiry exposed the corruption and the criminality and blew the lid off the tabloids once and for all.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 09, 2013, 03:52:42 PM
then you or any one can never quote them again as indication of anything at all...it is generally accepted if they quote a source and quote their speech directly with inverted commas it is acceptable...thats all...even if you dont like it
Even your mate gilet quoted a upi source today which only printed that SY had SAID something with no quotation marks or a name or anything, but derided other papers which said SY had said different @)(++(*
gilet isn't my mate, as you put it. I only met her on here.
but I am astounded by her intellect, knowledge and speed of typing .... and I acknowledge that.
Pity you can't
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on August 09, 2013, 03:57:11 PM
Apparently Mrs Murat spent the entire evening with Robert and they had dinner together before retiring. If that doesn't constitute 'sharing' then I don't know what does. ?{)(**
Newspaper reports must always be taken with a large pinch of salt girls. My own belief is that they are only really useful as chip paper and then for lighting the fire.
Sharing a dinner and house is quite different.
Does the same apply with the PJ files then Angelo, chip paper and then for lighting the fire.?
Relating to R.J.Q.E.Murat it was determined: 1. he lives at Casa Liliana ..... Lagos; 2. at the same address but in a separate house lives his mother J.A.Murat;
Does the same apply with the PJ files then Angelo, chip paper and then for lighting the fire.?
Relating to R.J.Q.E.Murat it was determined: 1. he lives at Casa Liliana ..... Lagos; 2. at the same address but in a separate house lives his mother J.A.Murat;
So they have separate accommodation on a single plot named Casa Liliana. Talk about splitting hairs.
Quite normal in the Latin countries for two or more properties to exist within a single named plot. I believe the term 'lived with his mother' could very well be applied to Robert as that is what he effectively did irrespective of what roof he slept under.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on August 09, 2013, 05:42:00 PM
It is not up to the police to designate/nominate anyone "arguido" - it's the judge from the public ministry. Otherwise certain questions - whose responses might incriminate the respondents - could not be made by the PJ.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 09, 2013, 05:44:59 PM
Quite normal in the Latin countries for two or more properties to exist within a single named plot. I believe the term 'lived with his mother' could very well be applied to Robert as that is what he effectively did irrespective of what roof he slept under.
I think a lot of men would take exception to being told that they lived with their Mother, if they had seperate premises, even under the same roof.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on August 09, 2013, 05:58:09 PM
Murat was a scapegoat used by Tapas9. After Tanner created that vision of hers there had to be a person to accuse. Murat is known around Praia da Luz for being helpful (sometimes too helpful, imo). But the Tapas were unlucky because nobody that have knewn Murat since he was a kid saw him that night.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 09, 2013, 06:01:50 PM
It is not up to the police to designate/nominate anyone "arguido" - it's the judge from the public ministry. Otherwise certain questions - whose responses might incriminate the respondents - could not be made by the PJ.
This statements supports those who believe that the 48 questions and the reconstruction were being used to incriminate the McCanns rather than help find maddie.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on August 09, 2013, 06:01:57 PM
ARGUIDO is a legal status that is conferred to anyone that is questioned during an Inquiry, and when the questions point to facts/occasions/events that may be incriminating to the persons that are going to be questioned. It's the equivalent to the Miranda act in the US, but even more protective since as "arguido" the person can never be questioned without a legal counselor present.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: John on August 09, 2013, 06:04:38 PM
We know that Sergey Malinka and Robert Murat spoke on the phone around 11:30 pm on May 3, 2007 - a short time after Madeleine McCann went missing.
Just to let readers know, Malinka's car was later fire-bombed in the street near his apartment and the word "TALK" spray painted on the footpath alongside it. He has since disappeared.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 09, 2013, 06:24:38 PM
Hopefully once the SY investigation gets underway we will find out why SY do not consider the McCanns suspects in their investigation.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 09, 2013, 06:26:27 PM
If from the answers to the 48 a tiny clue had emerged indicating some involvement of the McCanns, then ipso facto the issue "finding Madeleine" had been resolved faute de combattants.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on August 09, 2013, 06:33:19 PM
This statements supports those who believe that the 48 questions and the reconstruction were being used to incriminate the McCanns rather than help find maddie.
During an Inquiry/criminal investigation, you are supposed to do everything in order to find the victim - in this case Madeleine McCann. If the parents or any other person had any knowledge about what happened to her, in my opinion, and according to criminal investigation police, every question should be made, everyone should be investigated...
Do you think differently? Maybe you are more worried with saving the parent's backsides than finding the child... They were.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 09, 2013, 06:38:38 PM
During an Inquiry/criminal investigation, you are supposed to do everything in order to find the victim - in this case Madeleine McCann. If the parents or any other person had any knowledge about what happened to her, in my opinion, and according to criminal investigation police, every question should be made, everyone should be investigated...
Do you think differently? Maybe you are more worried with saving the parent's backsides than finding the child... They were.
IMO and a lot of other people the PJ had give up looking for Maddie and were only interested in incriminating her parents, as your post confirms. thank god SY are taking over
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on August 09, 2013, 06:40:06 PM
I don't want to sound mean, but when a parent that is "supposedly" waiting for a communication from the kidnappers of his child, just sits calmly in the police quarters fooling around the net, discussing baseball and sucking a lollipop while the police officers were biting their nails in agony....
When a mother protests for being taken at high velocity in a police car to check on a CCTV that might have recorded her child...
The protests of the McApologists do not surprise me anymore.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Rachel Granada on August 09, 2013, 06:43:32 PM
I don't want to sound mean, but when a parent that is "supposedly" waiting for a communication from the kidnappers of his child, just sits calmly in the police quarters fooling around the net, discussing baseball and sucking a lollipop while the police officers were biting their nails in agony....
When a mother protests for being taken at high velocity in a police car to check on a CCTV that might have recorded her child...
The protests of the McApologists do not surprise me anymore.
But we only have Amaral's word for that, Luz. Personally, I would rather trust the word of Walter Mitty....
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on August 09, 2013, 06:43:47 PM
IMO and a lot of other people the PJ had give up looking for Maddie and were only interested in incriminating her parents, as your post confirms. thank god SY are taking over
The PJ had investigated thousands of false leads and had requested the same from Interpol and Europol...
Why don't you question the reasons why the McCann always flew away from the most relevant leads? When something pointed to Portugal, they went to Spain, when in Spain they went to Rome, when in Morocco, they went to Germany....always getting away
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 09, 2013, 06:45:05 PM
I don't want to sound mean, but when a parent that is "supposedly" waiting for a communication from the kidnappers of his child, just sits calmly in the police quarters fooling around the net, discussing baseball and sucking a lollipop while the police officers were biting their nails in agony....
When a mother protests for being taken at high velocity in a police car to check on a CCTV that might have recorded her child...
The protests of the McApologists do not surprise me anymore.
more and more rubbish posted to blacken the mccanns name. if you read kates account of the high speed car incident you would understand what really happened. Bit like the claim that kate didn't search becacause iot was too cold and dark...pure lies....as redblossom eventually admitted. But these sort of claims are repeated. Fortunately SY will not be listening to such rubbish.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 09, 2013, 06:46:37 PM
The PJ had investigated thousands of false leads and had requested the same from Interpol and Europol...
Why don't you question the reasons why the McCann always flew away from the most relevant leads? When something pointed to Portugal, they went to Spain, when in Spain they went to Rome, when in Morocco, they went to Germany....always getting away
i'm sure you beleive this rubbish, but that's all it is ...rubbish
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 09, 2013, 06:48:07 PM
The PJ had investigated thousands of false leads and had requested the same from Interpol and Europol...
Why don't you question the reasons why the McCann always flew away from the most relevant leads? When something pointed to Portugal, they went to Spain, when in Spain they went to Rome, when in Morocco, they went to Germany....always getting away
Ok, to be fair to you...do you have proof of the above....er no
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on August 09, 2013, 06:48:13 PM
We know that Sergey Malinka telephoned former suspect in the case Robert Murat on or about 11:30 pm on May 3, 2007 - a short time after Madeleine McCann went missing.
Just to let readers know, Malinka's car was later fire-bombed in the street near his apartment and the word "TALK" spray painted on the footpath alongside it. He has since disappeared.
Malinka was investigated and totally cleared, unlike the McCann. Murat had commercial business with Malinka because this last one worked with computers, and when Murat decided to start his own enterprise he contacted him.
Malinka had had problems because he had dated a 16 year old when he was 18. So he appeared as someone who had had a sexual relationship with a minor. But he was cleared.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 09, 2013, 06:51:40 PM
Malinka was investigated and totally cleared, unlike the McCann. Murat had commercial business with Malinka because this last one worked with computers, and when Murat decided to start his own enterprise he contacted him.
Malinka had had problems because he had dated a 16 year old when he was 18. So he appeared as someone who had had a sexual relationship with a minor. But he was cleared.
Wrong again. the MCCanns have been investigated portugal ruled there was no evidence of any crime. SY have also ruled them out.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on August 09, 2013, 06:57:10 PM
Wrong again. the MCCanns have been investigated portugal ruled there was no evidence of any crime. SY have also ruled them out.
If you read the Final Report from the Attorney General you may see that it clearly says [paraphrasing], The McCanns failed to prove what they have claimed since the beginning, that they were innocent.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on August 09, 2013, 07:09:51 PM
This statements supports those who believe that the 48 questions and the reconstruction were being used to incriminate the McCanns rather than help find maddie.
Are you suggesting they were being "fitted up"?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on August 09, 2013, 07:11:17 PM
I have never used the words fitted up. What a ridiculous thing to say.
Well what do you mean when you said:
Quote
This statements supports those who believe that the 48 questions and the reconstruction were being used to incriminate the McCanns rather than help find maddie.
Quote
IMO and a lot of other people the PJ had give up looking for Maddie and were only interested in incriminating her parents, as your post confirms. thank god SY are taking over
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 09, 2013, 07:18:58 PM
During an Inquiry/criminal investigation, you are supposed to do everything in order to find the victim - in this case Madeleine McCann.
So simple ! This is how Mr Murat had his life turned upside down : he lived at a walking distance, in the direction taken by a walking abductor carrying a child in such a way that his muscular resistance wouldn't last more than 5 minutes. Mr Amaral didn't lose time to act only because the life of a little girl was at stake and any minute counted.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on August 09, 2013, 07:20:09 PM
what I mean is that Amaral was convinced they were guilty. he had a gut feeling. I think he has admitted this as such, but he didn't have the evidence. I think he hoped to use the questioning to try and get Kate to admit her guilt.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on August 09, 2013, 07:22:18 PM
what I mean is that Amaral was convinced they were guilty. he had a gut feeling. I think he has admitted this as such, but he didn't have the evidence. I think he hoped to use the questioning to try and get Kate to admit her guilt.
So..... they were trying to incriminate the Mccann's?
What's the difference between incriminating and "fitting up"?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on August 09, 2013, 07:22:26 PM
So simple ! This is how Mr Murat had his life turned upside down : he lived at a walking distance, in the direction taken by a walking abductor carrying a child in such a way that his muscular resistance wouldn't last more than 5 minutes. Mr Amaral didn't lose time to act only because the life of a little girl was at stake and any minute counted.
According to the fantasistic description made by Jane Tanner, that so called abductor wouldn't last 30 sec holding 25/30 kg in arms up-leveled in front of his torso.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on August 09, 2013, 07:23:17 PM
what I mean is that Amaral was convinced they were guilty. he had a gut feeling. I think he has admitted this as such, but he didn't have the evidence. I think he hoped to use the questioning to try and get Kate to admit her guilt.
There was no gut feeling, there was evidence.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 09, 2013, 07:23:34 PM
have you given up on all the other ridiculous claims you have made in the last 30 mins. want to change the subject because you have been shown to be wrong
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 09, 2013, 07:26:41 PM
So..... they were trying to incriminate the Mccann's?
What's the difference between incriminating and "fitting up"?
You are either McCannited or totally blind.
As Arguidos they could never be incriminated unless they did it themselves voluntarly. They were accompanied by their lawyers that would be quite attentive if they started to say anything that could be incriminating.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 09, 2013, 07:28:05 PM
When a mother protests for being taken at high velocity in a police car to check on a CCTV that might have recorded her child...
The sooner a child on CCTV is identified the better the chances to find her. It seems one of the rare cases where driving at high velocity is justified.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 09, 2013, 07:28:09 PM
The sooner a child on CCTV is identified the better the chances to find her. It seems one of the rare cases where driving at high velocity is justified.
another post based on ignorance and bias. have you read kates version of events
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on August 09, 2013, 07:30:08 PM
The sooner a child on CCTV is identified the better the chances to find her. It seems one of the rare cases where driving at high velocity is justified.
Mrs. Healy/McCann just felt it was a nuisance. Quite annoyed in fact...
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on August 09, 2013, 07:30:53 PM
another post based on ignorance and bias. have you read kates version of events
Have you read Amaral, Cristovão, João Pereira, Carvalho's (etc) books? What that woman says cannot be taken for granted after all the lies they ordered their relatives and friends to divulge by the media.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on August 09, 2013, 07:33:38 PM
Have you read Amaral, Cristovão, João Pereira, Carvalho's (etc) books? What that woman says cannot be taken for granted after all the lies they ordered their relatives and friends to divulge by the media.
Amaral ...haven't all those proved to be liars in court
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 09, 2013, 07:36:15 PM
Cider Andy has stated they have "persons of interest" NOT suspects and he corrected the Guardian for saying they were suspects.
Where are the arrests? Where are the "swoops"?
There's nothing there is there?
Do you understand nothing. SY are waiting for permission to start their investigation in portugal
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on August 09, 2013, 07:37:42 PM
After almost 3 years of reading the old documents, coming up with 38 suspects from the originally implied 195 leads,...Knowing we all that all the people in the files have been investigated, with the exception of the Tapas9, because they fled away, it's really worth 5,3 million quid...
Any police force in the world would be ashamed to make the statements the SY is making - they would look nicer if they shut up and did something relevant.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 09, 2013, 07:42:22 PM
After almost 3 years of reading the old documents, coming up with 38 suspects from the originally implied 195 leads,...Knowing we all that all the people in the files have been investigated, with the exception of the Tapas9, because they fled away, it's really worth 5,3 million quid...
Any police force in the world would be ashamed to make the statements the SY is making - they would look nicer if they shut up and did something relevant.
you wouldn't be a bitter , twisted Portuguese by any chance, embarrassed by the fact that your own police force is having to allow a foreign police force to take over the investigation because, according to the uk papers, the investigation was botched.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 09, 2013, 07:45:11 PM
Have you read Amaral, Cristovão, João Pereira, Carvalho's (etc) books? What that woman says cannot be taken for granted after all the lies they ordered their relatives and friends to divulge by the media.
To be honest, I don't think they "ordered". The relatives and friends believed the jemmied shutters etc. story and innocently spread those spectacular untruths, so unexpected that the media published them without carefully waiting for objective information.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on August 09, 2013, 07:47:27 PM
you wouldn't be a bitter , twisted Portuguese by any chance, embarrassed by the fact that your own police force is having to allow a foreign police force to take over the investigation because, according to the uk papers, the investigation was botched.
Your police force is good at condemning and killing innocent people, especially if they are foreigners.
And yes I am Portuguese and I would be ashamed to have a press like yours.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 09, 2013, 07:49:24 PM
1. His book was released by the Supreme Court in Lisbon and the McCann ordered to restore all the books their stupid lawyer had in her custody - they failed for almost 9 months (this is criminal, they were lucky none of the defendants took measures against them);
Strange lawyer for sure ! Were these books returned only in May 2012 ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Rachel Granada on August 09, 2013, 08:08:09 PM
After almost 3 years of reading the old documents, coming up with 38 suspects from the originally implied 195 leads,...Knowing we all that all the people in the files have been investigated, with the exception of the Tapas9, because they fled away, it's really worth 5,3 million quid...
Any police force in the world would be ashamed to make the statements the SY is making - they would look nicer if they shut up and did something relevant.
it was you who began the criticism of polic3e forces.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on August 10, 2013, 08:40:12 AM
Do you really think SY are waiting to "swoop" on suspects right now but its Portugal holding them back?
Ok, keep taking the tablets dear.
They have made clear they do not have suspects. They have "persons of interest", they corrected the Guardian when they said suspects.
I have to be blunt...you really are stupid. I said SY are waiting to start their investigation..nothing more, nothing less. Never mentioned "swooping" or anything else in my post. If you wish to comment on my posts please read them first and stick to the facts if you are able.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on August 10, 2013, 10:08:06 AM
I have to be blunt...you really are stupid. I said SY are waiting to start their investigation..nothing more, nothing less. Never mentioned "swooping" or anything else in my post. If you wish to comment on my posts please read them first and stick to the facts if you are able.
Lol! From the man who is always lagging behind in the debates, stuck permanently in the slow lane, who has from one thread to another, shown he's not capable of reading, understanding nor indeed independent thought! It's like trying to have a conversation with a wall!
No you just don't get it, do you. I MENTIONED "swooping", not you, me! This whole exchange started with me stating that the Yard don't appear to have found an abductor in two and a bit years, to such an extent that they corrected a national newspaper for using the word "suspect" instead of persons of interest.
Your reply centred around waiting for the investigation to start in Portugal. What difference does that make? Why haven't they issued EAW's for the people in Portugal if they were genuine suspects? What about the others, the 12 Uk nationals they mentioned or indeed the others in Europe? Why do they need Portugal to allow them to investigate in their jurisdiction to bring in the "persons of interest" who aren't actually in Portugal?
The point is that if there were genuine and real suspects they would have been arrested before now, before they had chance to flee after being alerted by the Yard's statement.
Leading on from that, if they were genuinely suspected of being involved do you not think the Yard would not have announced their intentions if they thought these were people who had Madeleine?
Do you not think the Yard would feel that they would flee, or worse still, dispose of the child, if they really thought they had someone who had her?
Think, man, use your noggin!
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Jazzy on August 10, 2013, 10:49:34 AM
You've certainly forgotten that the Mccanns were declared innocent of any wrongdoing both by Scotland Yard and the Portugese Attorney General.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on August 10, 2013, 10:53:11 AM
To confirm, i'm waiting for you to give me the exact part of the AG report which says they are "innocent".
Please note as you said the report stated the McCann's were innocent i would you like you to provide the quote specifically with the word "innocence" in it.
I'll wait here for you to come back to me.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2013, 11:25:36 AM
Only people who are extra-legal delude themselves that there is any such thing as "failing to demonstrate innocence".
There is no presumption of guilt, including in Portugal ...
So are you saying that:
The Public Prosecutor The AG of Portugal The assistant chief Constable of Leicestershire & his legal team Lord Justice Hogg
Are "deluded"?
Can i ask what your authority is on legal matters to allow you to come to that conclusion?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 10, 2013, 11:37:30 AM
Ferryman, I'm not sure it's a good idea to insist on the innocence issue when you're not treated as guilty. The risk is people start wondering whether finally you're so really innocent, a very common mechanism, as you know.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Jazzy on August 10, 2013, 11:43:49 AM
So if you are accused of the murder of your child, insisting on your innocence makes you look guilty?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on August 10, 2013, 11:47:33 AM
So if you are accused of the murder of your child, insisting on your innocence makes you look guilty?
This just won't do. You're going off at a tangent without addressing the previous issue.
To repeat we are waiting for you to provide a quote from the AG report which says the parents are "innocent" and more specifically which uses your "innocence" word.
Either provide the quote or admit it isn't there and that you were wrong because the AG report says no such thing.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Jazzy on August 10, 2013, 11:52:08 AM
If you want the quote, Albertini, find it for yourself, it's actually on the forum.
On a tangent? I was asking Anne to clarify her post.
It won't do for whom? Are you under the impression I am here to somehow please you? That most certainly wouldn't be correct.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on August 10, 2013, 12:08:33 PM
On a tangent? I was asking Anne to clarify her post.
It won't do for whom? Are you under the impression I am here to somehow please you? That most certainly wouldn't be correct.
Nope, what i am saying won't do is for you to make an unsupported claim to try and prove me wrong, then when asked to support your claim you then ignore the whole issue and move onto debating with someone else.
You've made a false claim and when called out on it, you have simply ignored it, hoping it will go away.
I am asking you, please, to provide evidence or to admit defeat before you move on to discuss other things with other posters.
That way we and the whole forum can be clear on the point and claim you have made so there no chance of us having this same conversation again in later posts and threads.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2013, 12:09:14 PM
Nope, you have said that it says they are "innocent", so it's on you to cite your claim. I'm not looking for something to support what you said.
that's upto you to back up your claims.
I take it then you can't find it? If you can't find it then you must accept that it does not exist and that you are wrong.
So are you going to admit that so we can all move on?
Nope, what i am saying won't do is for you to make an unsupported claim to try and prove me wrong, then when asked to support your claim you then ignore the whole issue and move onto debating with someone else.
You've made a false claim and when called out on it, you have simply ignored it, hoping it will go away.
I am asking you, please, to provide evidence or to admit defeat before you move on to discuss other things with other posters.
That way we and the whole forum can be clear on the point and claim you have made so there no chance of us having this same conversation again in later posts and threads.
I have no intention of going to any effort for you, if you want to find it, go and have a look, I'm under no obligation to please you.
As for false claim, you'll find you are mistaken.
All of my claims are based on the facts that no evidence was found to be enough to arrest and charge the Mccanns, and that situation is unlikely to change anytime soon.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on August 10, 2013, 12:30:09 PM
All of my claims are based on the facts that no evidence was found to be enough to arrest and charge the Mccanns, and that situation is unlikely to change anytime soon.
We aren't talking about any evidence found against them, we are talking about your assertion that the AG report stated they were innocent.
Where is it?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Jazzy on August 14, 2013, 07:05:49 AM
I came across this, Albert, it was an effort but there we are, I've been too busy watching the fun and games elsewhere in cyberspace.
Meanwhile, you have failed to answer the question posed more than once.
Have you been in contact with SY with your 'theories' on solving the case ?
Meanwhile as to the title of the thread. The PJ believed the Mccanns had a case to answer, but they lacked the forensics to back it up.
I think you are quite correct in this, Stephen. It is evident that the PJ, or at least sme members of the PJ, did believe that the McCanns had a case to answer. And this is not unusual. Hence the investigations, the tests etc. But the forensic tests failed to provide evidence. And therefore that line of enquiry failed.
What is unusual is that the McCanns then remained arguidos for so long, )and indeed had Amaral delayed a few days he would not havebeen been able to constitute them as arguidos anyway) and that he went on to write a book about it.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2013, 10:18:46 AM
I think you are quite correct in this, Stephen. It is evident that the PJ, or at least sme members of the PJ, did believe that the McCanns had a case to answer. And this is not unusual. Hence the investigations, the tests etc. But the forensic tests failed to provide evidence. And therefore that line of enquiry failed.
What is unusual is that the McCanns then remained arguidos for so long, )and indeed had Amaral delayed a few days he would not havebeen been able to constitute them as arguidos anyway) and that he went on to write a book about it.
You also have to remember Robert Murat as well.
What I found disturbing was the behaviour of Lori Campell whose 'comments' led to him being made an Arguido, without any foundation whatsoever.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2013, 10:22:14 AM
Yes, and there were rumours spread that Gerry was not Madeleine's father. I may be wrong but I think thats also in Amarals book?
I don't know whether it's in Amaral's book (I don't think so, but I stand to be corrected)
What is in the files is a quite remarkable exchange of correspondence between Amaral and the Portuguese forensic institute where Amaral asked the Institute if they could say, certainly, that Gerry is Madeleine's father and the Institute replied that they didn't have a clue, because they were given nothing directly from Madeleine to analyse.
It was shortly after that that the 'Gerry not Madeleine's father' canard broke ...
Letter to the National Forensics Institute (INML) from Goncalo Amaral
17th August 2007
The present inquiry is in relation to the investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May from P da L.
The English authorities in possession of elements collected from the family home in Leicestershire, which are being examined in an unidentified laboratory, traced the girl's DNA profile, in annex to this document.
As it is necessary to the investigation we request the following:
1. Whether in the tests done by the INML Madeleine's profile was established?
2. In the case of a positive answer to point 1, that it should be determined whether the girl is the daughter of the parents identified ? Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Healy.
3. Information about whether the profile obtained by the INML corresponds to the profile traced in the English laboratory, on the request of the British authorities.
4. If there are differences between the English and Portuguese profiles that a report should be drawn up for this inquiry.
5. In the follow-up of point 4, we request to be informed whether in the English profile the girl is the daughter of the McCann couple.
6. Other information that might be of use to the investigation.
Signed G. Amaral 09-Processos Vol IX Page 2419
Vol IX Page 2419
Reply from the Forensics Institute (INML) to Goncalo Amaral
22-08-2007
Reply to Queries
- We inform you that none of the samples received by this institute were designated as supposedly belonging to the missing girl and we therefore, cannot reply to this query.
- Samples were studied - hair and a piece of cloth - nuclear DNA profiles only being obtained from 4 samples, which upon comparison with the DNA profiles of Kate and Gerry, could not belong to the girl.
- The samples were then studied using mitochondrial DNA analysis, the same was done for the other samples, giving the results in accordance with our report of 9th July No. 2007/000226 LX-BC.
- As requested in point 5, it was determined that the profile obtained by the British lab could belong to a son/daughter of the McCanns.
- The comparison of the profiles obtained in autossomic STR from Kate and Gerry McCann with the profile obtained was carried out. Signed
The scandal broke shortly after ...
(That is, the scandalous rumour-mongering) ...
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 22, 2013, 06:55:19 PM
He didn't want to understand them, if they didn't fit his theories.
Didn't he have Jane in an apartment in Burgau at some point
I don't think he did actually, I can't remember offhand. The press did, though, I seem to remember.
I can see how that rumour originated - they did find one or more of the same haplotype as Jane's and, of course, the press didn't bother to find out what that actually signified.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 22, 2013, 07:44:26 PM
I don't know whether it's in Amaral's book (I don't think so, but I stand to be corrected)
What is in the files is a quite remarkable exchange of correspondence between Amaral and the Portuguese forensic institute where Amaral asked the Institute if they could say, certainly, that Gerry is Madeleine's father and the Institute replied that they didn't have a clue, because they were given nothing directly from Madeleine to analyse.
It was shortly after that that the 'Gerry not Madeleine's father' canard broke ...
Letter to the National Forensics Institute (INML) from Goncalo Amaral
17th August 2007
The present inquiry is in relation to the investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May from P da L.
The English authorities in possession of elements collected from the family home in Leicestershire, which are being examined in an unidentified laboratory, traced the girl's DNA profile, in annex to this document.
As it is necessary to the investigation we request the following:
1. Whether in the tests done by the INML Madeleine's profile was established?
2. In the case of a positive answer to point 1, that it should be determined whether the girl is the daughter of the parents identified ? Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Healy.
3. Information about whether the profile obtained by the INML corresponds to the profile traced in the English laboratory, on the request of the British authorities.
4. If there are differences between the English and Portuguese profiles that a report should be drawn up for this inquiry.
5. In the follow-up of point 4, we request to be informed whether in the English profile the girl is the daughter of the McCann couple.
6. Other information that might be of use to the investigation.
Signed G. Amaral 09-Processos Vol IX Page 2419
Vol IX Page 2419
Reply from the Forensics Institute (INML) to Goncalo Amaral
22-08-2007
Reply to Queries
- We inform you that none of the samples received by this institute were designated as supposedly belonging to the missing girl and we therefore, cannot reply to this query.
- Samples were studied - hair and a piece of cloth - nuclear DNA profiles only being obtained from 4 samples, which upon comparison with the DNA profiles of Kate and Gerry, could not belong to the girl.
- The samples were then studied using mitochondrial DNA analysis, the same was done for the other samples, giving the results in accordance with our report of 9th July No. 2007/000226 LX-BC.
- As requested in point 5, it was determined that the profile obtained by the British lab could belong to a son/daughter of the McCanns.
- The comparison of the profiles obtained in autossomic STR from Kate and Gerry McCann with the profile obtained was carried out. Signed
The scandal broke shortly after ...
(That is, the scandalous rumour-mongering) ...
Indeed.
'Gerry is not Madeleine's real father': The Portuguese media's latest attack on the McCanns
Last updated at 01:03 12 September 2007
In the latest of a series of increasingly personal smears against the McCanns, a Portuguese newspaper has claimed that Gerry McCann is not Madeleine's real father.
Sensationalist tabloid '24 horas' claimed that Portuguese police suspected the heart surgeon was not Madeleine's natural father.
With the front page headline, 'Police suspect Gerry is not Maddie's dad', the paper reported detectives were intending to use DNA samples to confirm their suspicions he was not the sperm donor behind the successful IVF treatment that led to her birth.
Scroll down for more... Kate McCann
The allegation is the latest episode in an astonishing smear campaign launched by both Portuguese detectives and the country's media.
Detectives trying to prove that Kate McCann killed her daughter have painted the 39-year-old doctor as a violent mother prone to "hysterical reactions" and losing control.
The allegations were leaked to Portuguese newspapers hours after Mrs McCann and her husband Gerry left the country under a cloud of suspicion about the disappearance of four-year-old Madeleine.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481168/Gerry-Madeleines-real-father-The-Portuguese-medias-latest-attack-McCanns.html#ixzz2cj06o0Ly Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 22, 2013, 08:13:16 PM
'Gerry is not Madeleine's real father': The Portuguese media's latest attack on the McCanns
Last updated at 01:03 12 September 2007
In the latest of a series of increasingly personal smears against the McCanns, a Portuguese newspaper has claimed that Gerry McCann is not Madeleine's real father.
Sensationalist tabloid '24 horas' claimed that Portuguese police suspected the heart surgeon was not Madeleine's natural father.
With the front page headline, 'Police suspect Gerry is not Maddie's dad', the paper reported detectives were intending to use DNA samples to confirm their suspicions he was not the sperm donor behind the successful IVF treatment that led to her birth.
Scroll down for more... Kate McCann
The allegation is the latest episode in an astonishing smear campaign launched by both Portuguese detectives and the country's media.
Detectives trying to prove that Kate McCann killed her daughter have painted the 39-year-old doctor as a violent mother prone to "hysterical reactions" and losing control.
The allegations were leaked to Portuguese newspapers hours after Mrs McCann and her husband Gerry left the country under a cloud of suspicion about the disappearance of four-year-old Madeleine.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481168/Gerry-Madeleines-real-father-The-Portuguese-medias-latest-attack-McCanns.html#ixzz2cj06o0Ly Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Dis-gus-ting smears against a bereaved family
Just to get Amaral a score? ... or was there some other reason that we dont know about?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 23, 2013, 07:52:41 PM
Returning to the theme of this thread, the attempt to get one or other of the McCanns to confess on the basis that Madeleine had a fatal accident is a highly significant clue. Add to this the talk about sedatives and Calpol and the evidence of how noticeably drowsy the twins were and a picture begins to develop.
Mr Amaral and his team obviously were of the opinion that Maddie had been accidentally overdosed and succumbed to it. Shock horror was what faced the McCanns according to the PJ thinking. WHAT TO DO???
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 23, 2013, 07:59:12 PM
Add to this the talk about sedatives and Calpol and the evidence of how noticeably drowsy the twins were and a picture begins to develop.
Calpol isn't a sedative, Angelo. Another mistake of Mr Amaral who should have consulted a doctor. Generally speaking, the sedation issue has been carefully avoided.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2013, 08:15:32 PM
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 23, 2013, 08:19:01 PM
Before we all go down the Calpol thread again I want to continue with the scenario as depicted by the Portuguese Police.
The PJ knew that both doctors were trained in the science of anesthesiology with at least one of them practising it as a career in Glasgow and Leicester.
This added to their suspicions that a substance or substances stronger than the paracetamol which makes up Calpol may have been administered. Who but a doctor working in a hospital would have access to such substances?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 23, 2013, 08:23:57 PM
Before we all go down the Calpol thread again I want to continue with the scenario as depicted by the Portuguese Police.
The PJ knew that both doctors were trained in the science of anesthesiology with at least one of them practising it as a career in Glasgow and Leicester.
This added to their suspicions that a substance or substances stronger than the paracetamol which makes up Calpol may have been administered. Who but a doctor working in a hospital would have access to such substances?
Who was practising it as a career in Glasgow and Leicester, Angelo?. I don't think Gerry trained as an anesthesiologist!
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 23, 2013, 09:02:29 PM
Sedatives aren't difficult to get, even if you're not a doctor. As an adult you can use those without major problem, they're very successful and quite safe. But only a doctor can safely control those substances if administrated to a little child and eventually act in case of a respiratory problem. No paediatrician here in Portugal would prescribe such substances for a child except in a hospital. Even if the parents say they can hardly sleep with the crying of the baby.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 23, 2013, 09:37:36 PM
Who was practising it as a career in Glasgow and Leicester, Angelo?. I don't think Gerry trained as an anesthesiologist!
I was under the impression you knew all this DCI, after all I must have posted it three times by now?
You have to train in it as part of the course to become a doctor.
Kate says in her book, that they took the decision to move south in 2000, to enable Gerry to take up a training post in cardiology, 'positions that were hard to come by', according to her.
Kate herself at the time 'had been promoted to a registrar post in anaesthetics in Glasgow and was -again according to Kate herself- working hard to complete her postgraduate exams or "fellowship".
Apparently it was possible for her to transfer from Glasgow to Leicester within six months.
Shortly after moving south -to Queniborough, she decided to leave anaesthetics even though she was happy in it.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 23, 2013, 11:02:36 PM
I was under the impression you knew all this DCI, after all I must have posted it three times by now?
You have to train in it as part of the course to become a doctor.
Kate says in her book, that they took the decision to move south in 2000, to enable Gerry to take up a training post in cardiology, 'positions that were hard to come by', according to her.
Kate herself at the time 'had been promoted to a registrar post in anaesthetics in Glasgow and was -again according to Kate herself- working hard to complete her postgraduate exams or "fellowship".
Apparently it was possible for her to transfer from Glasgow to Leicester within six months.
Shortly after moving south -to Queniborough, she decided to leave anaesthetics even though she was happy in it.
Sorry Angelo - you are wrong. Medical students in the UK may do a module on it in their course, but not necessarily. Then they do two years pre registration, F1 and F2 years, where they do various rotations (surgery, Obs and gyney, paeditatrics etc etc). One of those may be anaesthetics but not necessarily.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 24, 2013, 04:19:32 PM
When asked the simple question about Calpol Gerry McCann goes into his usual defensive mode. Firstly he says he won't comment and then immediately denies the assertion while his body language speaks volumes.
In any event, to get back to the discussion in hand, it is without doubt that Mr Amaral associated his suspicions that Madeleine had been sedated with her mother's expertise in the field of anaesthetics.
He theorised that Madeleine had suffered some sort of reaction to the sedation and succumbed to it. This left the parents in a predicament... WHAT TO DO?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 24, 2013, 05:13:05 PM
When asked the simple question about Calpol Gerry McCann goes into his usual defensive mode. Firstly he says he won't comment and then immediately denies the assertion while his body language speaks volumes.
In any event, to get back to the discussion in hand, it is without doubt that Mr Amaral associated his suspicions that Madeleine had been sedated with her parents and especially her mother's expertise in the field of anaesthetics.
He theorised that Madeleine had suffered some sort of reaction to the sedation and succumbed to it. This left the parents in a predicament... WHAT TO DO?
Why prevaricate Angelo?
Cos he is fed up to the teeth of people asking the same question repeatedly, just trying to incriminate him. He is fed up of the insinuations behind the question. You would be too.
Would you be so placid, if people kept trying to insinuate that you had overdosed your children?
I think not.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 24, 2013, 05:53:59 PM
No overdose is meant, sometimes the body reacts the opposite, this is why only doctors should administrate sedatives. The question is justified by the fact both twins were reported as sleeping amazingly among noises, voices, screams and checked by their mother many times, showing she realized her babies weren't therefore sleeping "normally". Who drugged the twins and why ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on August 24, 2013, 06:10:56 PM
I was under the impression you knew all this DCI, after all I must have posted it three times by now?
You have to train in it as part of the course to become a doctor.
Kate says in her book, that they took the decision to move south in 2000, to enable Gerry to take up a training post in cardiology, 'positions that were hard to come by', according to her.
Kate herself at the time 'had been promoted to a registrar post in anaesthetics in Glasgow and was -again according to Kate herself- working hard to complete her postgraduate exams or "fellowship".
Apparently it was possible for her to transfer from Glasgow to Leicester within six months.
Shortly after moving south -to Queniborough, she decided to leave anaesthetics even though she was happy in it.
Have you checked that out what is actually in Kate's book, Angelo? Or just copied that from Jill haverns blog?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 24, 2013, 10:00:59 PM
No overdose is meant, sometimes the body reacts the opposite, this is why only doctors should administrate sedatives. The question is justified by the fact both twins were reported as sleeping amazingly among noises, voices, screams and checked by their mother many times, showing she realized her babies weren't therefore sleeping "normally". Who drugged the twins and why ?
Some little ones are amazing what they will sleep thru. Here we do not know how much of the noise actually surrounded them, Doors can be shut to compartmentalize sound. Kate was bound to be over anxious about them and would keep an extra eye on them, by frequent checks.
Personally, I have felt all three children had something slipped into their teatime drinks .... or possibly were given sweeties that were some sport of drugs. This is the third time I have said this, but I will say it again. Madeleine was sooooo tired at 5.35ish that they had to carry her back to the apartment. That is very early considering that IIRC their bedtime was normally 7.45
Also each evening, the pattern had been to bath the children and get them in their jammies, then to take them to join up with the other children for a play on the climbing frame, slide etc for a while before going to bed. That night they were too tired to go and play.
All these things indicate the likelyhood that some sort of drug was administered to them at Teatime, with possibly a double dose for Madeleine
OMO, but what do you think about it Anne? Seems you know quite a lot about drugs and sedatives.
Could what I am saying make sense?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 24, 2013, 10:30:10 PM
Some little ones are amazing what they will sleep thru. Here we do not know how much of the noise actually surrounded them, Doors can be shut to compartmentalize sound. Kate was bound to be over anxious about them and would keep an extra eye on them, by frequent checks.
Personally, I have felt all three children had something slipped into their teatime drinks .... or possibly were given sweeties that were some sport of drugs. This is the third time I have said this, but I will say it again. Madeleine was sooooo tired at 5.35ish that they had to carry her back to the apartment. That is very early considering that IIRC their bedtime was normally 7.45
Also each evening, the pattern had been to bath the children and get them in their jammies, then to take them to join up with the other children for a play on the climbing frame, slide etc for a while before going to bed. That night they were too tired to go and play.
All these things indicate the likelyhood that some sort of drug was administered to them at Teatime, with possibly a double dose for Madeleine
OMO, but what do you think about it Anne? Seems you know quite a lot about drugs and sedatives.
Could what I am saying make sense?
Seems bathing the children and then taking them to the playground was not the usual routine. From Gerry's arguido interview :
'----- At 17h00 the OCEAN CLUB nursery care workers conducted MADELEINE and the other children in creche on the 1st floor of the main reception to [the area] next to the TAPAS, under awnings, where they [the children] had dinner under the supervision of the employees and, at times, with their parents. The dinner ended at 17h30 the time at which the employee supervision ended and the parents took over watching the children in the play area until 18h30. Following this they returned to the apartment, the deponent opened the main door with his key and, then, the rear door through which KATE and the children entered.'
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 24, 2013, 10:32:20 PM
Some little ones are amazing what they will sleep thru. Here we do not know how much of the noise actually surrounded them, Doors can be shut to compartmentalize sound. Kate was bound to be over anxious about them and would keep an extra eye on them, by frequent checks.
Personally, I have felt all three children had something slipped into their teatime drinks .... or possibly were given sweeties that were some sport of drugs. This is the third time I have said this, but I will say it again. Madeleine was sooooo tired at 5.35ish that they had to carry her back to the apartment. That is very early considering that IIRC their bedtime was normally 7.45
Also each evening, the pattern had been to bath the children and get them in their jammies, then to take them to join up with the other children for a play on the climbing frame, slide etc for a while before going to bed. That night they were too tired to go and play.
All these things indicate the likelyhood that some sort of drug was administered to them at Teatime, with possibly a double dose for Madeleine
OMO, but what do you think about it Anne? Seems you know quite a lot about drugs and sedatives.
Could what I am saying make sense?
Why, if Madeleine was already very tired at 5.35 ish, would a sleeping drug have been necessary? Do you mean that it would have been given before that? As far as I understand, drugs such as melatonin that are often used for kids to get them sleepy don't take very long at all to take effect, and are normally given as part of the child's bed-time routine. If Madeleine had been given something earlier (you mention 'tea time'), she would have been struggling to keep her eyes open long enough to get through bath time. Was she sooo tired that she missed her bath that night?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 24, 2013, 10:49:00 PM
Why, if Madeleine was already very tired at 5.35 ish, would a sleeping drug have been necessary? Do you mean that it would have been given before that? As far as I understand, drugs such as melatonin that are often used for kids to get them sleepy don't take very long at all to take effect, and are normally given as part of the child's bed-time routine. If Madeleine had been given something earlier (you mention 'tea time'), she would have been struggling to keep her eyes open long enough to get through bath time. Was she sooo tired that she missed her bath that night?
I have little idea of timings for drugs to take effect, but it certainly is recorded in the statements that she was soo tired that she had to be carried back. Maybe the bath partially revitalised her?
You do understand what I am saying, don't you Sherlock? Teatime was at 5pm ish at the outside tapas restaurant and she was very tired by 5.35. So tired that she had to be carried home.
I cant wade thru all the files again; my eyes wont stand it. But I think it said that they were read a story and that Madeleine was already lying down with her head on the pillow. I got the feeling that the twins were sitting on the edge of Madeleines bed whilst the story was being read. If I have this recollection correct, this again demonstrates just how tired Madeleine, most especially, was.
Please correct me if my recollections are wrong on this.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 25, 2013, 04:00:09 AM
Have you checked that out what is actually in Kate's book, Angelo? Or just copied that from Jill haverns blog?
Most certainly DCI. It is simple case of doing a search of the PDF file in the moderators library.
Anyway, to continue. I don't want to sidetrack the debate into areas which have already been discussed at length on other threads serve to say that Mr Amaral and his colleagues were sufficiently concerned about the drugging issue to bring it up with the parents at interview.
Now we have to ask ourselves where do we go from here?? How does one dispose of a child's body in such circumstances??
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 08:55:50 AM
Most certainly DCI. It is simple case of doing a search of the PDF file in the moderators library.
Anyway, to continue. I don't want to sidetrack the debate into areas which have already been discussed at length on other threads serve to say that Mr Amaral and his colleagues were sufficiently concerned about the drugging issue to bring it up with the parents at interview.
Now we have to ask ourselves where do we go from here?? How does one dispose of a child's body in such circumstances??
You will have to come up with that Angelo, cos I have gone thru it many time and nothing fits. As far as I can see it is impossible.
Maybe some of you guys can up with a sensible suggestion. We have been asking long enough for your ideas of what happened .... and all we get is accusations against The Meccanns. Never any ways, showing what the accusations infer could have been realised.
Over to you.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on August 25, 2013, 10:57:05 AM
Most certainly DCI. It is simple case of doing a search of the PDF file in the moderators library.
Anyway, to continue. I don't want to sidetrack the debate into areas which have already been discussed at length on other threads serve to say that Mr Amaral and his colleagues were sufficiently concerned about the drugging issue to bring it up with the parents at interview.
Now we have to ask ourselves where do we go from here?? How does one dispose of a child's body in such circumstances??
So you are using Jill Haverns as a source?
Your post
Quote
Kate says in her book, that they took the decision to move south in 2000, to enable Gerry to take up a training post in cardiology, 'positions that were hard to come by', according to her.
Kate herself at the time 'had been promoted to a registrar post in anaesthetics in Glasgow and was -again according to Kate herself- working hard to complete her postgraduate exams or "fellowship".
Apparently it was possible for her to transfer from Glasgow to Leicester within six months.
Shortly after moving south -to Queniborough, she decided to leave anaesthetics even though she was happy in it.
Haverns, spot the difference!
Re: doctor gerry in glasgow.
Portia on Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:38 am
Kate says in her book, that they took the decision to move south in 2000, to enable Gerry to take up a training post in cardiology, 'positions that were hard to come by', according to her.
She doesn't mention when they actually did move.
Kate herself at the time 'had been promoted to a registrar post in anaesthetics in Glasgow and was -again according to Kate herself- working hard to complete her postgraduate examns or "fellowship".
Apparently it was possible for her to transfer from Glasgow to Leicester within six months. She doesn't say six months from what.
Shortly after moving south -to Queniborough, she decided to leave anaesthetics even though she was happy in it.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 11:08:15 AM
Deleted
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 25, 2013, 12:34:12 PM
You will have to come up with that Angelo, cos I have gone thru it many time and nothing fits. As far as I can see it is impossible.
Maybe some of you guys can up with a sensible suggestion. We have been asking long enough for your ideas of what happened .... and all we get is accusations against The Meccanns. Never any ways, showing what the accusations infer could have been realised.
Over to you.
I am surprised that you of all people have not been able to put the pieces of the jigsaw together Sadie.
The theory so far by Mr Amaral and the Polícia Judiciária was that Madeleine had met with some sort of accident in the apartment. The actions of the parents and the glaring inconsistencies in the initial statements gave them cause to be concerned.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on August 25, 2013, 01:01:32 PM
I am surprised that you of all people have not been able to put the pieces of the jigsaw together Sadie.
The theory so far by Mr Amaral and the Polícia Judiciária was that Madeleine had met with some sort of accident in the apartment. The actions of the parents and the glaring inconsistencies in the initial statements gave them cause to be concerned.
That is the point. I have tried several times ... and not been able to do it.
You are not answering my request, but merely stating the same old mantra from Amaral.
Lets have some nuts and bolts to how it actually could have been achieved. I've tried. Heri has tried. SY will have tried. Rebelo has tried Sherlock, how about you? After all you are a famous detective.
Or you Angelo, or faith, or any of you? ... Purleaze, put us out of our misery. We have been waiting too long.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 25, 2013, 01:13:29 PM
The PJ were faced with a predicament. Initially there was an alleged sighting of a man carrying a child from the direction of the apartment just minutes after Gerry McCann had checked the three sleeping children. A check of the apartment by one of the tapas 9 a short time later found the scene quiet.
Later on in the investigation another family report seeing a man carrying a child much closer to the beach area. At least two members of this family claimed that the man they saw was none other than Gerry McCann. But how could this be if Gerry McCann was present at the tapas bar at the very same time as their sighting?
An impossibility?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 01:17:34 PM
The PJ were faced with a predicament. Initially there was an alleged sighting of a man carrying a child from the direction of the apartment just minutes after Gerry McCann had checked the three sleeping children. A check of the apartment by one of the tapas 9 a short time later found the scene quiet.
So ?
Are we about to get your theory? Please.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 25, 2013, 01:28:23 PM
It goes without saying that the man the Smith family saw carrying a child near the beach was not Gerry McCann. He might well have resembled him but that is where it ends.
Let's take a step back to the evidence again. The McCanns claimed that Madeleine was abducted, taken by some stranger. They initially claimed that the shutter on the childrens bedroom window had been forced, that the window had been opened, that some person had climbed in that window, lifted Madeleine and carried her out the front door.
Forensics showed this to be unlikely. The shutter was not forced, nobody climbed in and the only prints found were that of Kate McCann and a policeman. They didn't even find Gerry McCanns prints on the shutter or the window even though he claimed to have inspected them. This could only mean one thing and that was that the alleged abductor walked in and out through the front door. Amaral was unsure at this juncture as to what all this meant.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 25, 2013, 01:38:26 PM
The PJ were faced with a predicament. Initially there was an alleged sighting of a man carrying a child from the direction of the apartment just minutes after Gerry McCann had checked the three sleeping children. A check of the apartment by one of the tapas 9 a short time later found the scene quiet.
Later on in the investigation another family report seeing a man carrying a child much closer to the beach area. At least two members of this family claimed that the man they saw was none other than Gerry McCann. But how could this be if Gerry McCann was present at the tapas bar at the very same time as their sighting?
An impossibility?
In relation to the video clips of Gerard McCann and the person I saw on 3rd May 2007 when I saw the BBC news at 10 PM on 9th September 2007 something struck me that it could have been the same person. It was the way Gerard McCann turned his head down which was similar to what the individual did on 3rd May 2007 when we met him. It may have been the way he was carrying the child either. I would be 60-80% sure that it was Gerard McCann that I met that night carrying a child. I am basing that on his mannerism in the way he carried the child off the plane.
(...)
During that time I spoke to all my family members who were with me on the night of 3rd May 2007 about this and the only one who felt the same way as me was my wife. She had seen the video clip of Gerard McCann walking down the stairs of the plane earlier that day. We did not discuss this until some days later.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 25, 2013, 01:42:36 PM
Personally, I have felt all three children had something slipped into their teatime drinks .... or possibly were given sweeties that were some sport of drugs. This is the third time I have said this, but I will say it again. Madeleine was sooooo tired at 5.35ish that they had to carry her back to the apartment. That is very early considering that IIRC their bedtime was normally 7.45
Also each evening, the pattern had been to bath the children and get them in their jammies, then to take them to join up with the other children for a play on the climbing frame, slide etc for a while before going to bed. That night they were too tired to go and play.
All these things indicate the likelyhood that some sort of drug was administered to them at Teatime, with possibly a double dose for Madeleine.
Who could have done such a thing Sadie?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 02:22:53 PM
I dont wish to point the finger at anyone Angelo, but kitchen staff, waiters, nannies, anyone who called in could have done that.
If you are insinuating the Mccanns did it, then why would they do it in a public place? So easy to do it away from anyone
I think you are in the catering line aren't you, Angelo? If so, you would know the bustle, with everyone rushing around when meals are being prepared and served.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2013, 02:39:42 PM
I dont wish to point the finger at anyone Angelo, but kitchen staff, waiters, nannies, anyone who called in could have done that.
If you are insinuating the Mccanns did it, then why would they do it in a public place? So easy to do it away from anyone
I think you are in the catering line aren't you, Angelo? If so, you would know the bustle, with everyone rushing around when meals are being prepared and served.
So when were the twins sedated ? At dinner, although there is no indications that they were overly tired too, or during the abduction when it would have been an unnecessary, time consuming exercise ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 02:54:47 PM
So when were the twins sedated ? At dinner, although there is no indications that they were overly tired too, or during the abduction when it would have been an unnecessary, time consuming exercise ?
I have already said what I think ... and it is only my thoughts. I think they were all sedated / drugged at tea time, but that the twins had a very low dose and Madeleine had a bigger dose.
Only my thoughts ... and I dont doubt that you will put forward ideas that condemn the Mccanns, cos that seems to be your main purpose in life.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2013, 03:05:36 PM
I have already said what I think ... and it is only my thoughts. I think they were all sedated / drugged at tea time, but that the twins had a very low dose and Madeleine had a bigger dose.
Only my thoughts ... and I dont doubt that you will put forward ideas that condemn the Mccanns, cos that seems to be your main purpose in life.
So what if either Madeleine or her siblings hadn't eaten all of their meal and Gerry had polished it off or had said they didn't want any food ? With the abduction so well structured how would that have impacted on the abductor's plans ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 03:36:30 PM
So what if either Madeleine or her siblings hadn't eaten all of their meal and Gerry had polished it off or had said they didn't want any food ? With the abduction so well structured how would that have impacted on the abductor's plans ?
Not impossible Faith, but I think it would have been in something like a cup of hot chocolate. what kid leaves any of that?
Had they left stuff and Gerry finished it off, as a well built fit man the remnants of three toddlers meals are unlikely to have affected him
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2013, 03:53:27 PM
Not impossible Faith, but I think it would have been in something like a cup of hot chocolate. what kid leaves any of that?
Had they left stuff and Gerry finished it off, as a well built fit man the remnants of three toddlers meals are unlikely to have affected him
Hot chocolate ? Is there any reason to believe the children were given hot chocolate at their tea-time meal ? Isn't that more a bedtime drink. Kate describes Madeleine being pale and tired when she returned from her run which seems to be just as the children had started their meal. Would the McCanns really have allowed their children hot chocolate, even if it was available, before they had had a proper, nutritious meal ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 04:06:23 PM
Hot chocolate ? Is there any reason to believe the children were given hot chocolate at their tea-time meal ? Isn't that more a bedtime drink. Kate describes Madeleine being pale and tired when she returned from her run which seems to be just as the children had started their meal. Would the McCanns really have allowed their children hot chocolate, even if it was available, before they had had a proper, nutritious meal ?
IIRC Kate came back when the meal was well underway. About 5.20 - 5.25 come to mind, but that is from memory and I am happy to be corrected if I have remembered it wrongly.
Who says that they had the chocolate (or whatever, I only suggested chocolate ... could have been a milk shake or a fruit juice or even an icecream) before their meal? It would have been in something that was well flavoured to mask any odd tastes and something they really liked ... even a sweetie, or a cake in the shape of a teddy bear or bunny..
But a drink seems the most likely, with or at the end of the meal..
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 25, 2013, 04:10:46 PM
Hot chocolate ? Is there any reason to believe the children were given hot chocolate at their tea-time meal ? Isn't that more a bedtime drink. Kate describes Madeleine being pale and tired when she returned from her run which seems to be just as the children had started their meal. Would the McCanns really have allowed their children hot chocolate, even if it was available, before they had had a proper, nutritious meal ?
I think they had this "tea meal" at 17h, Faithlilly. Actually Mrs McCanns says they left shortly after she came back from her jogging. What always amazed me (may be for cultural reasons because in France children don't eat/drink at such short intervals) is that the kids were given milk and biscuits about 2 hours after their "tea meal".
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on August 25, 2013, 04:20:23 PM
I think they had this "tea meal" at 17h, Faithlilly. Actually Mrs McCanns says they left shortly after she came back from her jogging. What always amazed me (may be for cultural reasons because in France children don't eat/drink at such short intervals) is that the kids were given milk and biscuits about 2 hours after their "tea meal".
We must differ, Anne. My granchildren have their tea between 5.30 and 6pm, milk and biscuits around 7pm, bed 7.30pm.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2013, 04:58:45 PM
I think they had this "tea meal" at 17h, Faithlilly. Actually Mrs McCanns says they left shortly after she came back from her jogging. What always amazed me (may be for cultural reasons because in France children don't eat/drink at such short intervals) is that the kids were given milk and biscuits about 2 hours after their "tea meal".
Thank you for the correction Anne. However the point stands that it would have been difficult for any abductor or accomplice to be sure they would be able to sedate the children in the right dosage at that time. What if the McCanns had agreed to go with their friends to the Paraiso, that would certainly have scuppered any plans.
As to Kate jogging, it seems, strangely, Gerry doesn't remember her doing so. From his 10th May statement :
----- The deponent and KATE returned to the OCEAN CLUB by the short-cut and at the secondary reception they asked the lady employee if there was a vacant tennis court they could reserve. They were told there was a vacancy between 14H30 to 15H30. As it was already 15h00, they began to play immediately. At 15H30, the tennis instructor arrived, who instructed each of them until 16H30. ----- The stayed in that place, talking, until 16H45 at which time the twins went to the meal area. At 17h00, as usual, MADELEINE arrived accompanied by the teachers and the other children. After her arrival, MADELEINE ate, [the meal] having ended at 17H30.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 25, 2013, 05:10:24 PM
The sedation with the tea seems highly implausible for all those reasons that also crucially leave unexplained the who ? and the what ? I personally don't know any drug that will act about 2 hours after being administrated. There are drugs to induce sleep, they are (in France at least) prohibited for persons under 55 years, except for very exceptional cases like blind people, but those drugs don't deepen sleep at all.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 05:19:12 PM
Thank you for the correction Anne. However the point stands that it would have been difficult for any abductor or accomplice to be sure they would be able to sedate the children in the right dosage at that time. What if the McCanns had agreed to go with their friends to the Paraiso, that would certainly have scuppered any plans.
As to Kate jogging, it seems, strangely, Gerry doesn't remember her doing so. From his 10th May statement :
----- The deponent and KATE returned to the OCEAN CLUB by the short-cut and at the secondary reception they asked the lady employee if there was a vacant tennis court they could reserve. They were told there was a vacancy between 14H30 to 15H30. As it was already 15h00, they began to play immediately. At 15H30, the tennis instructor arrived, who instructed each of them until 16H30. ----- The stayed in that place, talking, until 16H45 at which time the twins went to the meal area. At 17h00, as usual, MADELEINE arrived accompanied by the teachers and the other children. After her arrival, MADELEINE ate, [the meal] having ended at 17H30.
Well Gerry was playing tennis wasn't he, so how would he know unless kate came to specifically tell him? Kate knew that Gerry was on the spot for the children. No reason why she shouldn't suddenly decide to go for a jog.
Do you think she should have asked permission?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 25, 2013, 05:26:08 PM
I dont wish to point the finger at anyone Angelo, but kitchen staff, waiters, nannies, anyone who called in could have done that.
If you are insinuating the Mccanns did it, then why would they do it in a public place? So easy to do it away from anyone
I think you are in the catering line aren't you, Angelo? If so, you would know the bustle, with everyone rushing around when meals are being prepared and served.
If Madeleine was already extremely tired at 5.35, this would obviate the need for her parents to give here a sleeping drug.
It does not make sense that they would have been the ones to give her a drug at 5.00 - this would probably have the result of sending her to sleep far earlier than 7.30, and there is nothing to suggest that they wanted their children to go to bed unusually early that night.
It would tally that if Madeleine had been drugged around 5, she would indeed have been very drowsy by 5.35. So theoretically someone at the complex could have drugged her.
This inside job is getting more complicated though, isn't it Sadie? The accomplice, or one of them, just so happens to have a job which enables him/her to serve the McCann children food.
Another question I have is that if a drug was administered at 5, there would be no guarantee that it would still be in effect several hours later. The abductor happened to have got his chance at 9.15, but he probably wasn't to have known, until then, that the wait for the coast to be clear might have been much longer.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2013, 05:37:36 PM
Hypothetically, purely hypothetically of course, what if both of the parents had administered a sleeping drug to Madeleine ?
It is known that her parents had 'communication' problems and had slept in separate bedrooms I believe, the night before.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2013, 05:41:29 PM
It is known that her parents had 'communication' problems
No it's not.
They'd had a disagreement.
That came to light because Kate volunteered the information.
Married couples (including happily married couples) do disagree from time to time.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2013, 05:43:55 PM
Well Gerry was playing tennis wasn't he, so how would he know unless kate came to specifically tell him? Kate knew that Gerry was on the spot for the children. No reason why she shouldn't suddenly decide to go for a jog.
Do you think she should have asked permission?
She left the children on their own you mean?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2013, 05:55:30 PM
I neither know nor care.
It is obviously irrelevant to Madeleine's abduction and was raised because Kate raised it.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 06:03:29 PM
If Madeleine was already extremely tired at 5.35, this would obviate the need for her parents to give here a sleeping drug.
It does not make sense that they would have been the ones to give her a drug at 5.00 - this would probably have the result of sending her to sleep far earlier than 7.30, and there is nothing to suggest that they wanted their children to go to bed unusually early that night.
It would tally that if Madeleine had been drugged around 5, she would indeed have been very drowsy by 5.35. So theoretically someone at the complex could have drugged her.
This inside job is getting more complicated though, isn't it Sadie? The accomplice, or one of them, just so happens to have a job which enables him/her to serve the McCann children food.
Another question I have is that if a drug was administered at 5, there would be no guarantee that it would still be in effect several hours later. The abductor happened to have got his chance at 9.15, but he probably wasn't to have known, until then, that the wait for the coast to be clear might have been much longer.
Her parents were not in the habit of giving her a sleeping drug Sherlock. Why suggest it?
Anne seem s to be an expert on drugs and sedatives. She might know how long they are effective.
OC is very casual Sherlock. Anyone attached could wander in and slip a draught in, but yep, it does rather point to nannies, or waiters, or kitchen staff ... but anyone could wander thru.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 06:07:04 PM
I can remember in some accounts, that gm was paying attention to an Eastern European young lady and it resulted in an argument with his wife, hence the sleeping in separate bedrooms.
These things do happen sadie, and you can't be that naive.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 06:35:51 PM
I can remember in some accounts, that gm was paying attention to an Eastern European young lady and it resulted in an argument with his wife, hence the sleeping in separate bedrooms.
These things do happen sadie, and you can't be that naive.
That is disgusting suggesting that he was sleeping with another woman. Why create myths?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2013, 06:40:35 PM
But why are you making so miuch out of it? That is what I dont understand.
My point is relatively simple.
If they weren't communicating following a row, I can imagine that if Madeleine had been given something to made her sleep and if one parent didn't know the other had administered a substance.
This is not an impossibility, is it ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2013, 07:01:11 PM
Stephen25000
relatively simple.
I think we already knew that.
But do you have some point to make about Madeleine's abduction?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2013, 07:19:15 PM
I can remember in some accounts, that gm was paying attention to an Eastern European young lady and it resulted in an argument with his wife, hence the sleeping in separate bedrooms.
These things do happen sadie, and you can't be that naive.
Wrong again.
When asked if she ever slept in Madeleine's room, she says that this happened on the Wednesday, because she was annoyed with Gerry. He ignored her after dinner when they went to the Tapas bar, which only happened that day. She decided to retaliate by sleeping in the other room, in the bed next to the window. She doesn't know if Gerry realized this because he was sleeping when she left, and if in fact her husband was aware of this, he made no comment.
No mention of a Eastern European young lady. Where do you get your tripe from?
When asked if she ever slept in Madeleine's room, she says that this happened on the Wednesday, because she was annoyed with Gerry. He ignored her after dinner when they went to the Tapas bar, which only happened that day. She decided to retaliate by sleeping in the other room, in the bed next to the window. She doesn't know if Gerry realized this because he was sleeping when she left, and if in fact her husband was aware of this, he made no comment.
No mention of a Eastern European young lady. Where do you get your tripe from?
When asked if she ever slept in Madeleine's room, she says that this happened on the Wednesday, because she was annoyed with Gerry. He ignored her after dinner when they went to the Tapas bar, which only happened that day. She decided to retaliate by sleeping in the other room, in the bed next to the window. She doesn't know if Gerry realized this because he was sleeping when she left, and if in fact her husband was aware of this, he made no comment.
No mention of a Eastern European young lady. Where do you get your tripe from?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on August 25, 2013, 09:20:52 PM
I'll put him out of his misery 8**8:/:
Witness Statement
Najoua Chekaya
Date: 2007/05/09
Place: Praia da Luz - Lagos
Occupation: Aerobic Instructor
She comes to the process as a witness. She worked as an aerobics instructor next to the Millenium Restaurant swimming pool, close to the Tapas restaurant in P Da L.
As she does not speak Portuguese, she is assisted by the interpreter, Robert Murat.
Stated that she arrived in Portugal on 21st March 2007 for the first time, having been recruited from England by the Mark Warner company.
She was recruited to give aerobic classes, however she was also asked to carry out a Quiz (game) twice a week (Tuesdays and Sundays) in the Ocean Club Tapas restaurant.
She began her working day at about 08.15 near to the Millenium restaurant until 08.45, then at 09.30 she walked to Lagos from where she returned at about 11.30 and at about 11.45 went for lunch at the Tapas restaurant.
In the afternoon she began work at 15.20 next to the Millenium until 16.15 and then returned to the Tapas restaurant until 17.15 and then to the Millenium restaurant from 17.30 to 18.00. She finished at about 18.15 and returned to the Tapas Bar for dinner and at 21.00 did a kind of quiz with the guests who were having dinner in the restaurant.
She remembers that last Tuesday at the end of the quiz, she was invited to the table of nine guests who asked her to join them for a drink.
She was at their table for about fifteen to twenty minutes and it was there that she met Madeleine's father, who directly invited her to the table, however, she does not know whether Madeleines mother was also there.
When questioned, she said that they talked of banalities and she did not notice any aspect or behaviour that was out of the ordinary. When questioned, she said that during the time that she was there Madeleines father did not leave the table, neither did any of the other guests, however, during this time one of the chairs was always empty, that of someone who had had dinner and left, not managing to indicate any identifying element about this person.
When questioned, she said she was at the table from about 21.30 to 21.50.
She does not remember anyone from outside the resort having made any questions about the functioning of the Ocean Club, or about any particular service. When questioned, she said that she had only seen Madeleine once or twice and had merely said hello to her, no more than that.
When questioned, she said that she had never seen anyone suspicious in the vicinity of the Ocean Club.
Her parents were not in the habit of giving her a sleeping drug Sherlock. Why suggest it?
Anne seem s to be an expert on drugs and sedatives. She might know how long they are effective.
OC is very casual Sherlock. Anyone attached could wander in and slip a draught in, but yep, it does rather point to nannies, or waiters, or kitchen staff ... but anyone could wander thru.
I am not at all suggesting that the McCanns gave her a drug, Sadie. That's not my logic.
I am saying that IF a drug was given (and I have no idea if it was ), 5pm would be a strange time for her parents to give it to her.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 26, 2013, 08:31:51 AM
I am not at all suggesting that the McCanns gave her a drug, Sadie. That's not my logic.
I am saying that IF a drug was given (and I have no idea if it was ), 5pm would be a strange time for her parents to give it to her.
Admin,.... Why has my response been wiped?
Here you are insinuating that Kate and Gerry drugged her and killed her. A theory how they got rid of the body is now needed. Can you supply one?
We have waited long enough for such a theory, but not one of the [ censored word ]s /sceptics has provided one. I have looked at it evey which way .... as have thousands of others ... and it is impossible. Also implausible.
If any drugging went on, it happened at tea-time ... or immediately before cos Madeleine was soooo tired that she had to be carried. Maybe the twins were very tired too? .... we just dont know. They were all too tired to go for their usual routine bedtime play on the slide with the other children; thatwe do know.
So....
Can you please come up with a possible and plausible method that they used to dispose of Madeleies body? You are good at theories, Sherlock .... altho I have to tell you that I have been told that a very similar theory was around before.
That doesn't make it incorrect tho
Cheers
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 26, 2013, 09:09:57 AM
Just checked. From eastern european family origins but lives in flitwick.
Now chain of events.
gm is 'distracted' by young lady.
km is a bit miffed.
Subsequently they row.
Don't talk much and sleep in separate bedrooms.
Both inadvertently give Madeleine something to help her sleep.
Hypothetical of course.
Trouble is .... the days are wrong for that to have happened.. The young lady event was on the Tuesday ....and Madeleine was abducted on the Thursday. Are you insinuating that Kate and Gerry didn't talk for 48 hours? Nah, I dont think that is right somehow.
Maybe Stephen, you could help Sherlock with a new theory as mentioined in the previous post. That would be good
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 26, 2013, 09:16:56 AM
Trouble is .... the days are wrong for that to have happened.. The young lady event was on the Tuesday ....and Madeleine was abducted on the Thursday. Are you insinuating that Kate and Gerry didn't talk for 48 hours? Nah, I dont think that is right somehow.
Maybe Stephen, you could help Sherlock with a new theory as mentioined in the previous post. That would be good
1 event can follow another.
I did not say they didn't talk.
If km was angry with her hubby and in the circumstances, and it festered.......................................
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2013, 10:05:04 AM
It's unheard of that married couples have disagreements.
When they do, that usually means one, other or both have done something fiendish and dastardly to one or other of the children ...
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 26, 2013, 10:19:52 AM
It's unheard of that married couples have disagreements.
When they do, that usually means one, other or both have done something fiendish and dastardly to one or other of the children ...
Tell me 'ferryman'.
If your other half was was gawping at a young woman's accoutrements would you be a bit miffed ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Chinagirl on August 26, 2013, 10:38:40 AM
This is nothing but salacious speculation. How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that the quiz lady being invited to their table happened on the TUESDAY? Also, there is nothing to indicate that the minor falling out between Kate and Gerry had anything to do with that event.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 26, 2013, 10:57:17 AM
This is nothing but salacious speculation. How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that the quiz lady being invited to their table happened on the TUESDAY? Also, there is nothing to indicate that the minor falling out between Kate and Gerry had anything to do with that event.
I have given a possible chain of events.
If you don't like it, well that's just tough.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 26, 2013, 11:39:17 AM
If your other half was was gawping at a young woman's accoutrements would you be a bit miffed ?
Well,as a bloke who presumably would be married to a woman, Ferryman would be a bit shocked if his wife was gawping at another womans accoutrements, dont you think !
@)(++(* 8)-)))
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 26, 2013, 11:42:02 AM
Well,as a bloke who presumably would be married to a woman, Ferryman would be a bit shocked if his wife was gawping at another womans accoutrements, dont you think !
@)(++(* 8)-)))
How do we know ferryman is a bloke ? >@@(*&) 8((()*/
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 26, 2013, 11:47:24 AM
Oh I have got it. just your imagination and, if I may say so, nasty suspicious mind at work. Merely tittle-tattle. No nuts and bolts, just your fantasy.
How about giving a real chain of events Stephen? You know, the kind that proves they dunit.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 26, 2013, 11:53:31 AM
Oh I have got it. just your imagination and, if I may say so, nasty suspicious mind at work. Merely tittle-tattle. No nuts and bolts, just your fantasy.
How about giving a real chain of events Stephen? You know, the kind that proves they dunit.
Like yours ? 8)--))
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 26, 2013, 11:59:28 AM
How is that abuse Stephen? You flash your gold teeth at me. Am I not allowed to comment?
Some might say that the sneering image at me was abuse. Angelo apologised after he had done that to me. Said "it was an accident, he didn't mean to do it", if you remember .. and apologised.
Relax Stephen. You take yourself too seriously !
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Lyall on August 26, 2013, 01:25:00 PM
A "valid scenario"?
You know it's impossible without being defamatory.
It's easy for you to come up with theories about unnamed abductors and international organisations and OC employees etc. - you don't name anybody so you can play with theories all day. And you do it seems.
It's obviously not possible for us to speculate without using names is it.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Lyall on August 26, 2013, 01:48:45 PM
Well I won't be on somebody else's forum.
But if this were any other case it would be the 5.30 to 8.30 time period that was concentrated on, not the time after that. There are no witnessses to either the child being alive, or patio door ever being left unlocked, other than friends of the parents - friends who have skilfully avoided speaking in public, right from the night of May 3rd 2007.
In any other case that would have been the story, right from the start.
That's the story that still needs to be told.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 26, 2013, 03:06:15 PM
Yes and on the basis of the PJ Files. Though the written answers by Mr and Mrs Payne (likely required because they had stated only once in Portimão) aren't in the files (compare with the written answers of JW which are in the files), there's a precious reference to their existence in the letter of a British police officer. They offer quite another perspective on what happened between 17h30 and 20h30 in the 5A.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 26, 2013, 03:24:45 PM
But if this were any other case it would be the 5.30 to 8.30 time period that was concentrated on, not the time after that. There are no witnessses to either the child being alive, or patio door ever being left unlocked, other than friends of the parents - friends who have skilfully avoided speaking in public, right from the night of May 3rd 2007.
In any other case that would have been the story, right from the start.
That's the story that still needs to be told.
What story? They are not public property. The group of friends have nothing to defend - as they have committed no crimes and are under no obligation to make any public comments. They were witnesses who gave their accounts of what happened during their time in PdL to the PJ as required, including the events of 3rd May. They have not changed those statements. The secrecy laws forbade them from discussing the case in public. If you choose not to believe their statements - then that is not their problem.
.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 26, 2013, 03:53:22 PM
Why were the McCanns made by the Portuguese Police "official suspects" of involvement in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann ? Eddie's finding in the 5A was no evidence (no sample could be taken neither in the bedroom corner nor on the balcony) but was intelligence about what could have happened to Madeleine McCann. We're in the beginning of August. Instead of contemplating the hypothesis Madeleine was killed (possibly accidentally) in the flat and taken away by a frightened perpetrator, the McCanns insisted she had been taken alive (for reasons that are another matter). Obviously such unfounded attitude (the sniffer dogs failed to find an (alive) trail corroborating the path taken by faceless man when he was carrying Madeleine) forced the PJ team to interview the McCanns with the perspective of their possible involvement. This happened in the middle of August and is off the record, likely because, as they weren't arguidos but witnesses, there was a legal risk their answers could be used against them. The McCanns likely failed to bring arguments against the involvement hypothesis. After that episode they knew their one and only theory, the abduction from bed, was if not discarded by the PJ, at least had been altered. They knew also the process was irreversible. And in fact, 3 weeks later, they were made arguidos, an initiative that had a negative effect in terms of image, a crucial detail for Mrs McCann in particular, but the positive effect to allow them to participate somehow in the investigation, an opportunity they didn't seize though that would have brushed their image.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 26, 2013, 04:02:32 PM
The PJ Files were divulged by the Ministério Publico a short time after the shelving of the case. On DVD. This had never happened, though the Portuguese law allows consultation of the files in situ, in the place where they are shelved. The DVD initiative was justified by the interest of the public and possibly by the preoccupation of stopping myths. Those files can't be copied, they are the property of the Ministério Publico, but they can be analysed and commented. That's even why they were put in the public domain.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: John on August 26, 2013, 04:51:29 PM
There are several on here that dont seem to mind being defamatory to Kate and Gerry.
Let them do it. You can feed them info by PM or by email
Hows about that ?.
It is quite acceptable to refer to information which is already in the public domain. Discussing scenarios which have already been suggested in no way defames anyone. Nobody has said that the McCanns murdered their daughter or thereafter hid her remains and rightly so because I find that proposition frankly quite preposterous.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 26, 2013, 05:32:52 PM
More preposterous than an abduction from bed by an organized gang ? Less preposterous than an abduction from street by a faceless walker ? As preposterous as an accidental fall whatever the reason of it ? How would you define the criteria of the "preposterous" in this particular case, John ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: John on August 26, 2013, 05:54:44 PM
More preposterous than an abduction from bed by an organized gang ? Less preposterous than an abduction from street by a faceless walker ? As preposterous as an accidental fall whatever the reason of it ? How would you define the criteria of the "preposterous" in this particular case, John ?
The whole idea that they murdered their eldest daughter is a non starter Anne which ever way you define "preposterous", wouldn't you agree?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 26, 2013, 05:55:14 PM
It is quite acceptable to refer to information which is already in the public domain. Discussing scenarios which have already been suggested in no way defames anyone. Nobody has said that the McCanns murdered their daughter or thereafter hid her remains and rightly so because I find that proposition frankly quite preposterous.
I agree but not impossible. I have repeated the evidence which the Portuguese authorities used in order to come to the conclusion that there just might be a case to answer. This includes the conflicting statements, the evidence relating to the shutter and the window which points to the use of the front door, the flippant attitude towards any reported sightings, the refusal to answer questions, the cadaver dog alerts and the inconclusive forensic results etc
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: John on August 26, 2013, 05:58:51 PM
I agree but not impossible. I have repeated the evidence which the Portuguese authorities used in order to come to the conclusion that there just might be a case to answer. This includes the conflicting statements, the evidence relating to the shutter and the window which points to the use of the front door, the flippant attitude towards any reported sightings, the refusal to answer questions, the cadaver dog alerts and the inconclusive forensic results etc
I agree there are some startling ambiguities in the evidence thus where we are today still debating this case. I will be interested to see the rest of the evidence and the key factor which ultimately pours doubt on their involvement.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 26, 2013, 06:05:00 PM
I agree there are some startling ambiguities in the evidence thus where we are today still debating this case. I will be interested to see the rest of the evidence and the key factor which ultimately pours doubt on their involvement.
I was coming to that John. It seems that the PJ were conducting a double investigation at one stage. On the one hand they were publicly looking for an abducted 4-year-old while on the other hand they were actively seeking evidence which could convict her parents. Bizarre!!
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 26, 2013, 06:52:30 PM
the flippant attitude towards any reported sightings
I was amazed, two or three years ago, to watch an interview by a Portuguese TV channel (in Lisbon) where the journalist asked which sighting they had more invested hope on, they looked at each other and laughed "none, actually".
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Matthew Wyse on August 26, 2013, 07:09:42 PM
I was amazed, two or three years ago, to watch an interview by a Portuguese TV channel (in Lisbon) where the journalist asked which sighting they had more invested hope on, they looked at each other and laughed "none, actually".
Not surprising is it Anne...a lot of searching going on presently >> NOT!!
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 26, 2013, 07:11:39 PM
I couldn't have put that better myself Mat. Obviously they have forgotten why the FUND was set up in the first place. But then as they know where...... lies I ain't in the least surprised.
I asusme this was posted by Angelo as an ordinary poster, and not with the "mod" hat on?
The McCanns, having been let down by the utter shambles that was Amarals "investigation" have at last managed to get a properly organised investigation and search, with reasonable co-operation between the PJ and the Met. Probably, and very sadly, too little too late - but they have tried and eventually succeeded in getting some profssional help.
But as for searching themselves - how? They do not have powers of entry, of questionning, they do not have the language skills. So how exactly were they supposed to search for Madeleine? They did what is in my view the sensible thing, and applied their energies to getting a proper investigation.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 26, 2013, 11:09:08 PM
I asusme this was posted by Angelo as an ordinary poster, and not with the "mod" hat on?
The McCanns, having been let down by the utter shambles that was Amarals "investigation" have at last managed to get a properly organised investigation and search, with reasonable co-operation between the PJ and the Met. Probably, and very sadly, too little too late - but they have tried and eventually succeeded in getting some profssional help.
But as for searching themselves - how? They do not have powers of entry, of questionning, they do not have the language skills. So how exactly were they supposed to search for Madeleine? They did what is in my view the sensible thing, and applied their energies to getting a proper investigation.
Unfortunately JP some people seem to think there is only one way of searching - and that is by walking around with a spade in one hand and a map of the world in the other. They ignore the advice of the experts in this field, who advise that to give a missing child/person the best chance of being found you should keep their profile as high as possible in the public eye. And this is what the McCanns have been doing for the last 6 years.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 26, 2013, 11:10:41 PM
Go on use your imagination. Ever hear of a home help? Who was that guy Jane saw?
What do you mean Angelo?
What are you saying?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 26, 2013, 11:52:39 PM
How else could he be in two place at once. Murat was made an arguido because of the evidence and the Russian guy investigated because of his links with Murat? Do you think the PJ just did it all for fun? 8(0(*
Always remember that it was some members of the tapas 9 who put Murat in the frame in the first place when they said they saw him around the resort on the night that Madeleine disappeared.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 27, 2013, 12:18:34 AM
Well how did they do it then? Why did they do it? How did they arrange it? ... they were strangers
How did they get the scent of death into the car, if bundleman took Madeleine way?
Why did he whisper "Madeleine, Madeleine?
How come everyone in the group was so calm?
Were they all init?
Are they all telling lies?
Awww come on, Angelo, pull the other one
Anyhow ... carry on. I am enjoying this ... but will have to read tomorrow ... Soz
Will give you plenty of time to get your story / theory sorted. 8((()*/
I don't do theories and speculation Sadie, I will leave that up to you. I do however repeat the evidence and show how it can fit certain scenarios.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 27, 2013, 12:32:11 AM
British police officers were sent to Portimão in order to collaborate with the PJ almost from the very beginning. One of them spoke Portuguese. They unexpectedly left with the McCanns in September, 2 weeks before Mr Amaral was dismissed. This means that who denigrates the work of that team is attacking the British PO as well.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 27, 2013, 12:34:30 AM
The McCanns, having been let down by the utter shambles that was Amarals "investigation" have at last managed to get a properly organised investigation and search, with reasonable co-operation between the PJ and the Met. Probably, and very sadly, too little too late - but they have tried and eventually succeeded in getting some profssional help.
But as for searching themselves - how? They do not have powers of entry, of questionning, they do not have the language skills. So how exactly were they supposed to search for Madeleine? They did what is in my view the sensible thing, and applied their energies to getting a proper investigation.
Be prepared to be disappointed Jean-Pierre. Scotland Yard have no power to investigate anything in Portugal, all they can do is ask the PJ to do it. Same goes for searching but searching for Madeleine isn't what this is about or haven't you realised this yet??
Remind me, how many times have the McCanns been back to Portugal to search for Madeleine since she disappeared?? Once, twice or not at all?? They won't find her holed up in leafy Rothley will they??
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 27, 2013, 12:35:53 AM
British police officers were sent to Portimão in order to collaborate with the PJ almost from the very beginning. One of them spoke Portuguese. They unexpectedly left with the McCanns in September, 2 weeks before Mr Amaral was dismissed. This means that who denigrates the work of that team is attacking the British PO as well.
What was it? Two days after being made official suspects they high-tailed it out of Praia da Luz as quick as they could. What does that tell you??
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 27, 2013, 12:45:34 AM
How do you know how many times the McCanns have returned to Portugal?
It is very plain to see that their idea of searching is to farm it out to a third party while they get on with their own lives. Maybe they should take some lessons from those people who have managed to search for their lost children on a shoe string, namely the Needhams and the Fitzpatricks.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 27, 2013, 12:46:10 AM
how many times have the McCanns been back to Portugal to search for Madeleine since she disappeared?
But, Angelo, when one has the talent to have things done or said without actually physically doing or saying them, why wouldn't one do or say things by proxy ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 27, 2013, 12:50:42 AM
What was it? Two days after being made official suspects they high-tailed it out of Praia da Luz as quick as they could. What does that tell you??
That they knew they were being fitted up? So what would any sensible person do in those circumstances who knew they were innocent and were in a foreign country? They also knew at that stage that Madeleine was no longer being searched for - so yet another reason not to stay.
Incidentally I believe Kate has made several trips back to PdL. They made some good friends during their time there. Contrary to popular belief by some sceptics she is not obliged to inform them of every move she makes.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 27, 2013, 12:50:55 AM
Two days after being made official suspects they high-tailed it out of Praia da Luz as quick as they could. What does that tell you??
It wasn't smart to "leave like thieves" (as we say in French). Those who had supported them for months were deceived (no good bye) and naturally started to figure out a possible involvement.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 27, 2013, 01:04:34 AM
That they knew they were being fitted up? So what would any sensible person do in those circumstances who knew they were innocent and were in a foreign country? They also knew at that stage that Madeleine was no longer being searched for - so yet another reason not to stay.
Incidentally I believe Kate has made several trips back to PdL. They made some good friends during their time there. Contrary to popular belief by some sceptics she is not obliged to inform them of every move she makes.
The detectives were only doing their job since the evidence indicated that there might be more to the disappearance than first realised. What always surprised me though was that they were even allowed to leave the country under the circumstances.
Could it be that they were shocked by the reaction of the crowd on the day of the arguido interviews in Portimao?? Far from making friends their were deemed to be pariahs.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 27, 2013, 01:06:04 AM
They were being fitted up by currupt police officers?
Exactly. Two of whom now have criminal records. One for perjury and the other for torture! So imo fitting the McCanns up would have been the 'obvious' ' way forward in their corrupt world. How people can actually criticise the McCanns for leaving once they realised they were being framed by these crooks is totally incomprehensible to me.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 27, 2013, 01:11:01 AM
Exactly. Two of whom now have criminal records. One for perjury and the other for torture! So imo fitting the McCanns up would have been the 'obvious' ' way forward in their corrupt world. How people can actually criticise the McCanns for leaving once they realised they were being framed by these crooks is totally incomprehensible to me.
Why shouldn't they leave the country? What circumstances?
They got scared when the police started asking awkward questions. They thought that they were about to be arrested thus why they made arrangements for family to look after the children just in case.
Notice how they never return to PdL together.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 27, 2013, 01:16:36 AM
It wasn't smart to "leave like thieves" (as we say in French). Those who had supported them for months were deceived (no good bye) and naturally started to figure out a possible involvement.
One way or another that's certainly how it looked to the public. The facts are they bolted and then went on a face saving campaign around the world using money which was supposed to have been used to SEARCH for Madeleine.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 27, 2013, 01:32:30 AM
And why would innocent people leave this way ? Were they scared these people who knew that the MP was supervising the investigation, who had permanent contact with their embassy and the UK consul, who had LPO and trusted them enough to ask one of them what they should say to the PJ ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 27, 2013, 01:35:15 AM
The detectives were only doing their job since the evidence indicated that there might be more to the disappearance than first realised. What always surprised me though was that they were even allowed to leave the country under the circumstances.
Could it be that they were shocked by the reaction of the crowd on the day of the arguido interviews in Portimao?? Far from making friends their were deemed to be pariahs.
Why would they be shocked? They had seen themselves made victims of a poisonous smear campaign in the press, aided and abetted by certain PJ officers. Do you think they didn't know how that would affect the opinion of a proportion of the Portuguese population? But not everyone in Portugal held those opinions - and they did make some good friends over there.
As for the police 'only doing their job' - I'm afraid that is not an opinion I can share with you. It is plain that some officers were honest decent policeman who did their level best, but unfortunately not all. IMO There were corrupt officers who just wanted a result - any result. Innocence or guilt didn't really come into it as their subsequent criminal convictions for grossly abusing their power as police officers by the use of perjury and torture to 'get a result' was to prove.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 27, 2013, 01:44:06 AM
The facts are they bolted and then went on a face saving campaign around the world using money which was supposed to have been used to SEARCH for Madeleine.
But they'll say the objective wasn't at all face saving but keeping high profile for Madeleine to be found ! What will be deduced from those unsuccessful high profile campaigns ? That the proof is made they are of no use and shouldn't be repeated ? Or that no proof of nothing was achieved because Madeleine has probably gone from that planet 6 years ago ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 27, 2013, 01:47:41 AM
One way or another that's certainly how it looked to the public. The facts are they bolted and then went on a face saving campaign around the world using money which was supposed to have been used to SEARCH for Madeleine.
Well I'm a member of the public and it didn't look like that to me - nor to thousands of others.
Once again you fail to understand that to give Madeleine the very best chance of being found was to keep her profile as high as possible in the public's mind. Why do you have such difficulty in accepting that? It is what every expert on Missing People stress is the best possible use of time and money when searching for a loved one.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 27, 2013, 01:53:43 AM
Well I'm a member of the public and it didn't look like that to me - nor to thousands of others.
Once again you fail to understand that to give Madeleine the very best chance of being found was to keep her profile as high as possible in the public's mind. Why do you have such difficulty in accepting that? It is what every expert on Missing People stress is the best possible use of time and money when searching for a loved one.
And it has achieved a big fat ZERO because she is most probably dead.
Question is BY WHOSE HAND? Maybe SY will tell us in a few months time...not holding my breath though 8(8-))
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 27, 2013, 02:05:32 AM
But they'll say the objective wasn't at all face saving but keeping high profile for Madeleine to be found ! What will be deduced from those unsuccessful high profile campaigns ? That the proof is made they are of no use and shouldn't be repeated ? Or that no proof of nothing was achieved because Madeleine has probably gone from that planet 6 years ago ?
Whether you like it or not that is the advice given by the experts and until the McCanns have proof that their daughter is dead they will continue to search for her in the way which has been proved to be the best.
Why on earth would any decent person begrudge them their right to do that? Surely it is something that every loving parent would have no difficulty in understanding.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 27, 2013, 10:21:02 AM
It is very plain to see that their idea of searching is to farm it out to a third party while they get on with their own lives. Maybe they should take some lessons from those people who have managed to search for their lost children on a shoe string, namely the Needhams and the Fitzpatricks.
A very good point Angelo. Kerry Needham has only latterly set up a fund to search for Ben. Before she staged bring and buy sales and such to raise money and followed every sighting up herself, travelling to Kos many times to enable her to do this. I'm sure if she was asked what sighting had filled her with the most hope I'm sure she wouldn't have struggled to remember as the McCanns did when asked the same question by a journalist some time ago.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 27, 2013, 08:01:07 PM
Her parents need to know what has happened to her, whether she is alive or dead. It makes no difference.
They cling to the possibility that she is alive, and frequently voice this opinion, but also know that in pressuring for investigations to continue, they are facing the possibility of learning that she is dead. This is a risk they take because the need to know what has happened is the over-riding factor.
SY, on camera, will always emphasise the possibility that she is alive, in order to create a sense of sympathy and urgency in the public mind as a justification for the sums being spent. Whether, underneath, this is really what they believe to be the case, we don't know.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 27, 2013, 09:59:35 PM
I shouild think Chinagirl is exhausted after all her hard work last night.
Well done Chinagirl ... and the other few who stayed up late.
You all did very well ! 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 27, 2013, 10:00:30 PM
But they'll say the objective wasn't at all face saving but keeping high profile for Madeleine to be found ! What will be deduced from those unsuccessful high profile campaigns ? That the proof is made they are of no use and shouldn't be repeated ? Or that no proof of nothing was achieved because Madeleine has probably gone from that planet 6 years ago ?
If the objective was not to keep Madeleine's profile high then what are you saying their intention was?
Can you also explain how the McCanns could possibly have known in advance - when they first began their campaign to keep Madeleine's profile high - that six years on - their daughter would still be missing inspite of all their efforts?. They could not see into the future.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it Anne.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 28, 2013, 12:21:41 AM
Oh but I didn't say what their intention imo was ! So please don't pretend I said what I didn't.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 28, 2013, 12:51:41 AM
I have been given special permission to start this thread to explore the reasons why the McCanns and Murat were suspected by the Portuguese Police of involvement in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
I will add that this topic is extremely important to the case given what happened to the parents. I expect all posters to stick to the facts and refrain from speculations.
Senior Editor
.... moderate abusive comment ...
The McCann being made arguido was a normal procedure according to the Portuguese Process Penal Code - only the people that know nothing about it can find it strange - it's a protection when people are interrogated about matters whose responses could incriminate them. Being arguido protects them allowing them to excuse from responding as Kate Healy did. Murat asked to be made arguido to have the same legal protection.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on August 28, 2013, 01:22:51 AM
Kate Healy and Gerald McCann were naturally the first suspects. They achieved by means of diplomatic and PR twists to get away to their Rothley little house, but they are still the primary suspects that "failed to prove what they insisted from the start, their innocence" (Attorney General's Final Report)
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 28, 2013, 01:23:45 AM
A very good point Angelo. Kerry Needham has only latterly set up a fund to search for Ben. Before she staged bring and buy sales and such to raise money and followed every sighting up herself, travelling to Kos many times to enable her to do this. I'm sure if she was asked what sighting had filled her with the most hope I'm sure she wouldn't have struggled to remember as the McCanns did when asked the same question by a journalist some time ago.
This is something i will never understand about the McCanns. I have pointed out on several threads that they have failed to emulate the enormous amount of searching which Ben Needham and Amy Fitzpatrick's parents have undertaken on the ground in Kos and in Spain respectively. If my daughter had been taken in such circumstances I would not leave a single stone unturned literally until i found out what had happened to her. But then again my name is not Gerry McCann. I would never put personal ambition and gain before the welfare of my daughter.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 28, 2013, 01:37:48 AM
Kate Healy and Gerald McCann were naturally the first suspects. They achieved by means of diplomatic and PR twists to get away to their Rothley little house, but they are still the primary suspects that "failed to prove what they insisted from the start, their innocence" (Attorney General's Final Report)
It is normal that the last people to have any contact with a disappeared person are usually deemed to be persons of interest in any abduction investigation. Scotland Yard might well have gone on record to state that the parents are not among the many persons of interest currently being investigated but that does not mean that they are exempt from investigation at a later stage if the evidence points that way.
As pointed out earlier in this thread there are several pieces of evidence which give potential to something other than abduction. The police were presented with conflicting statements, conflicting evidence and inconclusive results. They were thwarted and harangued by political interference from the outset all of which is yet to be satisfactorily explained.
Why was the British Prime Minister at the time, Gordon Brown, interfering in this case?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on August 28, 2013, 02:03:30 AM
It is normal that the last people to have any contact with a disappeared person are usually deemed to be persons of interest in any abduction investigation. Scotland Yard might well have gone on record to state that the parents are not among the many persons of interest currently being investigated but that does not mean that they are exempt from investigation at a later stage if the evidence points that way.
As pointed out earlier in this thread there are several pieces of evidence which give potential to something other than abduction. The police were presented with conflicting statements, conflicting evidence and inconclusive results. They were thwarted and harangued by political interference from the outset all of which is yet to be satisfactorily explained.
Why was the British Prime Minister at the time, Gordon Brown, interfering in this case?
Thanks Angelo
People have avoided to remember that on children's demise usually the close family are the primary suspects. In this case the efforts to exclude them were so prompt and from so high that we, the portuguese population, and most probably the police felt that a real dirty business was on. Speaking for myself, I couldn't believe their PR program for the journos just a few days after their daughter was missing. They would call the journalists to make pics at a certain time and had the inhabitants forbidden on certain streets with the help of the mayor. It was nauseating. While they were parading to the cams the portuguese that had taken time from their jobs and the ex-pats were searching the fields. I have no links, I watched this.
I've told this before, but people didn't believe me. They held hands only for the pics, as soon as they were off the cams they went separated like unrelated persons. They act and that acting will end some day.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 28, 2013, 02:31:34 AM
Luz...we have a saying here in England...it is a long road which has no turning.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 28, 2013, 05:58:45 AM
The McCann being made arguido was a normal procedure according to the Portuguese Process Penal Code - only the people that know nothing about it can find it strange - it's a protection when people are interrogated about matters whose responses could incriminate them. Being arguido protects them allowing them to excuse from responding as Kate Healy did. Murat asked to be made arguido to have the same legal protection.
Cite please Luz, for Murat asking to be made atguido
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 28, 2013, 06:02:44 AM
Kate Healy and Gerald McCann were naturally the first suspects. They achieved by means of diplomatic and PR twists to get away to their Rothley little house, but they are still the primary suspects that "failed to prove what they insisted from the start, their innocence" (Attorney General's Final Report)
Tis a strange sort of Justice where you have to prove your innocence !!! Over here the accusers have to prove your guilt.
You were close by Luz, so if the finger of suspicion fell on you, would you have to prove YOUR innocence?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Chinagirl on August 28, 2013, 06:16:39 AM
Luz forgets that they are no longer suspects of any description, let alone primary ones!
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 28, 2013, 06:21:43 AM
This is something i will never understand about the McCanns. I have pointed out on several threads that they have failed to emulate the enormous amount of searching which Ben Needham and Amy Fitzpatrick's parents have undertaken on the ground in Kos and in Spain respectively. If my daughter had been taken in such circumstances I would not leave a single stone unturned literally until i found out what had happened to her. But then again my name is not Gerry McCann. I would never put personal ambition and gain before the welfare of my daughter.
Your approach to searching is the eaxct opposite of the Mccanns. You would use physical means alone. They use their considerable brains.
Please dont think that I am saying that you do not have intellect, I am not. But the chances of finding a missing child, by walking around looking, in a foreign country the size of PT and without the language are infitismal.
Plus the PJ were obviously trying to "fit them up"
So woulld you , Angelo, put your twins thru all the roaming around looking? At the expence of their education and family links etc? Would you put them at the risk of having their Mum and Dad arrested / falsely jailed on the slightest whim because certian peeps in the PJ were determined to get them? Would you take the risk with your children that they might end up in a childrens home with the inherent risks of paedophilia there + other major disadvantages.
Time to drop that ill thought out mantra that THEY should be roaming around searching for Madeleine. They have used a better, if unhappily unsucessful route.
Nobody could have expected all the sabotage which they have experienced. Such as evil people tearing their posters down or splashing paint over the contact details ... and others littering the place with red herrings.
Take a bow, Luz. You have publicly bragged about defacing those posters and spoiling the search for a missing little girl. ... removed comment ...
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 28, 2013, 06:27:41 AM
Your approach to searching is the eaxct opposite of the Mccanns. You would use physical means alone. They use their considerable brains.
Please dont think that I am saying that you do not have intellect, I am not. But the chances of finding a missing child, by walking around looking, in a foreign country the size of PT and without the language are infitismal.
Plus the PJ were obviously trying to "fit them up"
So woulld you , Angelo, put your twins thru all the roaming around looking? At the expence of their education and family links etc? Would you put them at the risk of having their Mum and Dad arrested / falsely jailed on the slightest whim because certian peeps in the PJ were determined to get them? Would you take the risk with your children that they might end up in a childrens home with the inherent risks of paedophilia there + other major disadvantages.
Time to drop that ill thought out mantra that THEY should be roaming around searching for Madeleine. They have used a better, if unhappily unsucessful route.
Nobody could have expected all the sabotage which they have experienced. Such as evil people tearing their posters down or splashing paint over the contact details ... and others littering the place with red herrings.
Take a bow, Luz. You have publicly bragged about defacing those posters and spoiling the search for a missing little girl.
Amaral was gone by October so are you saying Rebelo was also trying to 'fit' the McCanns up and the PJ still are ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 28, 2013, 06:52:54 AM
Your approach to searching is the eaxct opposite of the Mccanns. You would use physical means alone. They use their considerable brains.
Please dont think that I am saying that you do not have intellect, I am not. But the chances of finding a missing child, by walking around looking, in a foreign country the size of PT and without the language are infitismal.
Plus the PJ were obviously trying to "fit them up"
So woulld you , Angelo, put your twins thru all the roaming around looking? At the expence of their education and family links etc? Would you put them at the risk of having their Mum and Dad arrested / falsely jailed on the slightest whim because certian peeps in the PJ were determined to get them? Would you take the risk with your children that they might end up in a childrens home with the inherent risks of paedophilia there + other major disadvantages.
Time to drop that ill thought out mantra that THEY should be roaming around searching for Madeleine. They have used a better, if unhappily unsucessful route.
Nobody could have expected all the sabotage which they have experienced. Such as evil people tearing their posters down or splashing paint over the contact details ... and others littering the place with red herrings.
Take a bow, Luz. You have publicly bragged about defacing those posters and spoiling the search for a missing little girl.
Nobody has stopped the Mccanns 'searching' for Madeleine,that's a forum myth.
The PJ stopped looking for an abducted child, since they found no evidence of abdcution
We now have had well over 6 years of a 'search' which has achieved precisely nothing, even with a reward on offer.
The statistics as regards the recovery of missing children are well known after such an extended period are well known.
The 'mccannites' as they are called wax lyrical, but how many of them have searched for Madeleine.
Physical searching does achieve results, going for a stroll on the beach the morning after your child disappears is an insult. Anyone casn say
Using peoples hard earned donated money to pay for your nmortgage and legal expenses is gross, especially when the Mccanns were responsible for what happened.
If the Mccanns had used their 'considerable brains' (now that's a classic) in the first place, we would not be here today.
People with even a basic level of intelligence and commonsense don't place their children in needless jeopardy, the Mccanns did,NIGHT AFTER NIGHT, and Madeleine paid the price.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2013, 09:49:20 AM
I note again, as per usual, when some Mccann supporters make comments, they assume the 'abduction' is a fact.
It isn't, as they regularly tell anyone else who believes she died in the apartment.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Chinagirl on August 28, 2013, 09:54:25 AM
Not only McCann supporters. Scotland Yard are assuming this as well, which means a whole heap more than your scepticism!
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2013, 10:02:02 AM
What story? They are not public property. The group of friends have nothing to defend - as they have committed no crimes and are under no obligation to make any public comments. They were witnesses who gave their accounts of what happened during their time in PdL to the PJ as required, including the events of 3rd May. They have not changed those statements. The secrecy laws forbade them from discussing the case in public. If you choose not to believe their statements - then that is not their problem.
.
But they did discuss the case in public, after it became clear Madeleine's parents were being suspected. Before that though you're right, not a peep.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Lyall on August 28, 2013, 11:55:39 AM
Could they say anything else when the Prime Minister unequivocally gave his position on the case in Parliament?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 28, 2013, 12:21:26 PM
Meanwhile what has any member of the PJ got to do with the disappearance of Madeleine from the apartment ?
So glad that you are now agreeing that Amaral abdicated on his duty to try and find Madeleine. He preferred to try and "fit up" the Mccanns.
I ask myself, 1) Why would this man be so keen to "fit people up"?
2) Why did he decide the following morning after the abduction that The Mccanns dunit? Before seeing any evidence?
3) Why did he put out, or allow out, propaganda against The Mccanns. Same as he did with Leonor Cipriano. Disgraceful
4) Why did he rush through making The Mccanns arguidos? Was it because the Law was being tightened up in a few days. That he wouldn't be allowed to make them arguidos in a few days time cos he had nothing criminal against them? Was it to save his face or something more sinister?
5) Why did he, or officers under his command, lie to Gerry and tell him they had proof that Madeleines body had been carried inn the hire car . A car that wasn't even in the Mccanns possesssion until weeks after Madeleine went missing
Oh and I could go on ... lots more questions
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 28, 2013, 12:42:59 PM
So glad that you are now agreeing that Amaral abdicated on his duty to try and find Madeleine. He preferred to try and "fit up" the Mccanns.
I ask myself, 1) Why would this man be so keen to "fit people up"?
2) Why did he decide the following morning after the abduction that The Mccanns dunit? Before seeing any evidence?
3) Why did he put out, or allow out, propaganda against The Mccanns. Same as he did with Leonor Cipriano. Disgraceful
4) Why did he rush through making The Mccanns arguidos? Was it because the Law was being tightened up in a few days. That he wouldn't be allowed to make them arguidos in a few days time cos he had nothing criminal against them? Was it to save his face or something more sinister?
5) Why did he, or officers under his command, lie to Gerry and tell him they had proof that Madeleines body had been carried inn the hire car . A car that wasn't even in the Mccanns possesssion until weeks after Madeleine went missing
Oh and I could go on ... lots more questions
Stop talking rubbish.
The Mccanns were never fitted up.
That is one of your fantasies.
The PJ could not find evidence of abduction.
Haven't you grasped that concept yet ?
Would you prefer that in highlighted writing with bright colours perhaps ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Lyall on August 28, 2013, 12:46:26 PM
So glad that you are now agreeing that Amaral abdicated on his duty to try and find Madeleine. He preferred to try and "fit up" the Mccanns.
I ask myself, 1) Why would this man be so keen to "fit people up"?
2) Why did he decide the following morning after the abduction that The Mccanns dunit? Before seeing any evidence?
3) Why did he put out, or allow out, propaganda against The Mccanns. Same as he did with Leonor Cipriano. Disgraceful
4) Why did he rush through making The Mccanns arguidos? Was it because the Law was being tightened up in a few days. That he wouldn't be allowed to make them arguidos in a few days time cos he had nothing criminal against them? Was it to save his face or something more sinister?
5) Why did he, or officers under his command, lie to Gerry and tell him they had proof that Madeleines body had been carried inn the hire car . A car that wasn't even in the Mccanns possesssion until weeks after Madeleine went missing
Oh and I could go on ... lots more questions
Do you have the same concerns about what happened to Mr Murat? Or just for Madeleine's parents?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 28, 2013, 12:49:35 PM
Of course I do, but he isn't being bullied by faceless cowards on the internet
He doesn't have the support behind him that Madeleine's parents do either. I really wouldn't worry about them. Start worrying if/when the press start asking questions again. But at the moment our efforts are blowing in the wind.
Have you never wondered why people are 'faceless' btw?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 28, 2013, 01:01:49 PM
Could they say anything else when the Prime Minister unequivocally gave his position on the case in Parliament?
So do you think he ordered a whitewash Lyall? If so - why would he take such a dangerous step in his career for who - in the greater scheme of things - are little more than an ordinary couple from Leicestershire - when he had absolutely no need to. To attempt to influence the outcome of the review would be political suicide if it ever came out. So that makes no sense to me.
I'm sure he was fully briefed about the case before he made his decision, and like the rest of us he is entitled to his opinion. IMO he has accepted the findings of the review - not influenced them.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Lyall on August 28, 2013, 01:09:40 PM
So do you think he ordered a whitewash Lyall? If so - why would he take such a dangerous step in his career for who - in the greater scheme of things - are little more than an ordinary couple from Leicestershire - when he had absolutely no need to. To attempt to influence the outcome of the review would be political suicide if it ever came out. So that makes no sense to me.
I'm sure he was fully briefed about the case before he made his decision, and like the rest of us he is entitled to his opinion. IMO he has accepted the findings of the review - not influenced them.
What outcome/findings of the review? They haven't said anything other than that there are people they'd like to interview.
You obviously have a higher opinion of Mr Cameron than I do. The case has become embroiled in the struggle (the bitter struggle) over press regulation.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 28, 2013, 01:35:09 PM
What outcome/findings of the review? They haven't said anything other than that there are people they'd like to interview.
You obviously have a higher opinion of Mr Cameron than I do. The case has become embroiled in the struggle (the bitter struggle) over press regulation.
LOL - I'm afraid I do not have a high opinion of any politicians Lyall. However one thing I am sure about is that they would not willingly take any steps which might jeopardise their own positions of power - and for Cameron to order a whitewash would be doing exactly that - as it could come back and bite him on the derriere. That's not a risk he would take IMO.
The findings of the review thus far IMO is that they have been able to eliminate the McCanns and their friends from the equation. That seems pretty substantial to me.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 28, 2013, 01:37:17 PM
LOL - I'm afraid I do not have a high opinion of any politicians Lyall. However one thing I am sure about is that they would not willingly take any steps which might jeopardise their own positions of power - and for Cameron to order a whitewash would be doing exactly that - as it could come back and bite him on the derriere. That's not a risk he would take IMO.
The findings of the review thus far IMO is that they have been able to eliminate the McCanns and their friends from the equation. That seems pretty substantial to me.
I think that risk is the least of Mr Cameron's concerns, don't you? He has far closer links to other people soon to be in court.
I don't say he's 'ordered' anything. I read the words of the retiring DCS Campbell in the Standard to be effectively saying we don't know anymore now than they knew in 2008.
So if the efforts of the professionals are still inconclusive, politicians can take any stance they wish to.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 29, 2013, 09:47:13 PM
As already pointed out there were several reasons why Mr Amaral and his team of detectives including those who had been seconded from Lisbon were suspicious of the McCanns within days of the disappearance. Amaral freely admits in his book that he was reluctant to tell his superiors about his concerns in case it jeopardised the entire investigation. In reality there were two investigations taking place, one to find an abductor who may have taken Madeleine and another into the actions of the parents.
To get back to events which are evidenced and witnessed. The man whom Jane Tanner saw striding confidently away from the direction of the apartment that night has never come forward. If he exists there is every reason to believe he was carrying Madeleine. But why was he carrying her away from the apartment?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2013, 10:09:20 PM
As already pointed out there were several reasons why Mr Amaral and his team of detectives including those who had been seconded from Lisbon were suspicious of the McCanns within days of the disappearance. Amaral freely admits in his book that he was reluctant to tell his superiors about his concerns in case it jeopardised the entire investigation. In reality there were two investigations taking place, one to find an abductor who may have taken Madeleine and another into the actions of the parents.
To get back to events which are evidenced and witnessed. The man whom Jane Tanner saw striding confidently away from the direction of the apartment that night has never come forward. If he exists there is every reason to believe he was carrying Madeleine. But why was he carrying her away from the apartment?
Obvious. He had stolen her.
But then I would expect you to object.
Tin hat on. Am waiting and will do my best to analyse what you are saying
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 29, 2013, 10:10:19 PM
Tanner's 'evidence' wasn't credible and that is why Rebelo wanted to stage a reconstruction so desperately.
The only way JT's evidence could be considered as 'not credible' was if she was lying - and IMO no-one has come up with a remotely credible reason why she would lie about anything, let alone something as massive as giving false evidence to the police in the case of a missing child.
Amaral certainly found her evidence credible enough to risk breaking the law (according to Anne G) by arranging an illegal 'Identity Parade' for her when he had Robert Murat in his sights.
IMO it was only after he turned his attention onto the parents and JT's evidence became a 'problem' to his theory that she miraculously turned into a witness whose evidence was apparently no longer credible. How very convenient.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 30, 2013, 02:19:55 AM
Please don't make me say what I didn't. There was emergency, I think nobody will deny this. Any second was precious in case the little girl was still alive. This is why Gonçalo Amaral and Bob Smart improvised the pseudo parade. Nobody blamed them, but of course what JT would say could only be intelligence, no evidence.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 30, 2013, 08:06:31 AM
Please don't make me say what I didn't. There was emergency, I think nobody will deny this. Any second was precious in case the little girl was still alive. This is why Gonçalo Amaral and Bob Smart improvised the pseudo parade. Nobody blamed them, but of course what JT would say could only be intelligence, no evidence.
IIRC correctly Anne I said the reason no witness statement was taken was because JT had not positively identified Murat as the man she saw on the 3rd carrying a child away - as Amaral later repeatedly claimed she did. You said that the reason there was no witness statement taken was because the Identify parade was illegal. If you remember I asked whether Bob Small and JT were aware that they were being involved in an unlawful act.
I haven't got time to find the posts at the moment, but if you did not say it was illegal - then I will be happy to apologise to you. However maybe we can clear this matter up now - if you would confirm whether or not it is illegal to hold identity parades in Portugal such as the one Amaral conducted. Either it is or it isn't. Thankyou.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Chinagirl on August 30, 2013, 08:44:07 AM
Please don't make me say what I didn't. There was emergency, I think nobody will deny this. Any second was precious in case the little girl was still alive. This is why Gonçalo Amaral and Bob Smart improvised the pseudo parade. Nobody blamed them, but of course what JT would say could only be intelligence, no evidence.
That it was an "emergency" was no excuse for taking an illegal shortcut - ie: a "pseudo parade." Beating a confession out of a suspect is also illegal in Portugal, yet Amaral condoned such action. What was his excuse that time?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: ferryman on August 30, 2013, 09:04:36 AM
Jane saw him close-to before the parade.
If she was going to recognise him, it would have been then ...
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 30, 2013, 09:09:57 AM
It seems Bob Smart had the idea and Gonçalo Amaral agreed because and only because there was a terrible emergency. This is not a little detail, it explains the whole operation. If you neglect that detail, the whole episode doesn't make sense. The rules defined by the Portuguese law for a parade weren't, couldn't be applied due to the time factor. One of these rules is that the person of interest has to know before, democracy legitimately requires it. The issue wasn't to obtain a statement of Ms Tanner but to confirm suspicions against Mr Murat's and launch a police raid. No evidence was at stake, only intelligence. If Ms Tanner had said "no way, it's not the man I saw", they might have renounced or at least postponed the police raid. Ms Tanner likely wasn't categorical but she didn't deny it could be the carrier. Now if she had said "yes, this is the carrier I saw", then some appropriate parade or confrontation should have been organized later in order to produce evidence in court.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: ferryman on August 30, 2013, 09:16:43 AM
It seems Bob Smart had the idea and Gonçalo Amaral agreed because and only because there was a terrible emergency.
Bob Small, not Smart, but that's by-the-bye.
No report of Bob Small's appears on line, so we can't say whose idea the sighting was.
Something else rattles around in my brain that a proper identity parade ought to be one where the suspect is lined up with several other people, to see whether the 'suspect' is selected from several candidates ...
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 30, 2013, 09:24:18 AM
I'm sorry, Bob Small ! Yes, in this precise case men should have walked with a puppet of the size and the weight of a child on their forearms. They should have organized such a parade imo, as they should have organized a parade for the Smith sighting.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 30, 2013, 10:11:14 AM
It seems Bob Smart had the idea and Gonçalo Amaral agreed because and only because there was a terrible emergency. This is not a little detail, it explains the whole operation. If you neglect that detail, the whole episode doesn't make sense. The rules defined by the Portuguese law for a parade weren't, couldn't be applied due to the time factor. One of these rules is that the person of interest has to know before, democracy legitimately requires it. The issue wasn't to obtain a statement of Ms Tanner but to confirm suspicions against Mr Murat's and launch a police raid. No evidence was at stake, only intelligence. If Ms Tanner had said "no way, it's not the man I saw", they might have renounced or at least postponed the police raid. Ms Tanner likely wasn't categorical but she didn't deny it could be the carrier. Now if she had said "yes, this is the carrier I saw", then some appropriate parade or confrontation should have been organized later in order to produce evidence in court.
Can you cite the evidence that this was Bob Small's idea please?
Personally, I have been unable to find out whether Bob Small was even in the van with JT during this identity parade or whether his role was simply to inform JT of the request from the PJ and to meet her at the arranged place. I somehow doubt it as he would have been able to confirm the outcome of the ID parade had he been in the van with her.
I don't agree that it was done because of the 'time factor' - there was nothing to stop a legal identity parade from being organised at the proper time. It would appear that Amaral preferred to trample over Robert Murat's rights and break the law rather than apply proper policing practices.
If as you claim no evidence was at stake, then why bother to do it in the first place? Having heard of the lies told to the McCanns re the dogs and DNA during their interviews - it is not difficult to believe that Murat was told that JT had positively identified him as the man she saw during his interview. In fact that would explain his apparent animosity towards JT and his intention to sue her - (although whether that is true or a forum myth I do not know.)
Amaral has used the event to repeatedly and falsely claim that JT positively identified RM - IMO done purely to discredit her credibility as a witness because her sighting completely negated his theory that the parents disposed of Madeleine's body.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 11:03:35 AM
It seems Bob Smart had the idea and Gonçalo Amaral agreed because and only because there was a terrible emergency. This is not a little detail, it explains the whole operation. If you neglect that detail, the whole episode doesn't make sense. The rules defined by the Portuguese law for a parade weren't, couldn't be applied due to the time factor. One of these rules is that the person of interest has to know before, democracy legitimately requires it. The issue wasn't to obtain a statement of Ms Tanner but to confirm suspicions against Mr Murat's and launch a police raid. No evidence was at stake, only intelligence. If Ms Tanner had said "no way, it's not the man I saw", they might have renounced or at least postponed the police raid. Ms Tanner likely wasn't categorical but she didn't deny it could be the carrier. Now if she had said "yes, this is the carrier I saw", then some appropriate parade or confrontation should have been organized later in order to produce evidence in court.
That should be covered in the CPP, shouldn't it? I haven't looked, perhaps you could find the relevant Articles.
Would it come under ID parade?
Are there any points covering emergency covert operations which may be later ratified by the prosecutor?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 30, 2013, 11:08:46 AM
Such gratuitous doubts and speculations, such lack of consideration for the little girl, then hoped to be still alive, interestingly illustrate through which mechanisms the Madeleine case rapidly became the McCann and co case. 6 years ago, almost exactly, when the parents became official suspects and left immediately, giving some credit to suspicion, people in Portugal stopped being interested in this case. It's not Mr Amaral's book that did it, it was the focus on the McCann instead of what had happened to Madeleine.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 11:10:42 AM
Can you cite the evidence that this was Bob Small's idea please?
Personally, I have been unable to find out whether Bob Small was even in the van with JT during this identity parade or whether his role was simply to inform JT of the request from the PJ and to meet her at the arranged place. I somehow doubt it as he would have been able to confirm the outcome of the ID parade had he been in the van with her.
I don't agree that it was done because of the 'time factor' - there was nothing to stop a legal identity parade from being organised at the proper time. It would appear that Amaral preferred to trample over Robert Murat's rights and break the law rather than apply proper policing practices.
If as you claim no evidence was at stake, then why bother to do it in the first place? Having heard of the lies told to the McCanns re the dogs and DNA during their interviews - it is not difficult to believe that Murat was told that JT had positively identified him as the man she saw during his interview. In fact that would explain his apparent animosity towards JT and his intention to sue her - (although whether that is true or a forum myth I do not know.)
Amaral has used the event to repeatedly and falsely claim that JT positively identified RM - IMO done purely to discredit her credibility as a witness because her sighting completely negated his theory that the parents disposed of Madeleine's body.
As a bluff technique, that wouldn't surprise me at all.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 11:13:47 AM
Such gratuitous doubts and speculations, such lack of consideration for the little girl, then hoped to be still alive, interestingly illustrate through which mechanisms the Madeleine case rapidly became the McCann and co case. 6 years ago, almost exactly, when the parents became official suspects and left immediately, giving some credit to suspicion, people in Portugal stopped being interested in this case. It's not Mr Amaral's book that did it, it was the focus on the McCann instead of what had happened to Madeleine.
So-called leaks from police sources close to the investigation hardly helped, did they?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 30, 2013, 11:14:14 AM
That should be covered in the CPP, shouldn't it? I haven't looked, perhaps you could find the relevant Articles.
Would it come under ID parade?
Are there any points covering emergency covert operations which may be later ratified by the prosecutor?
No, this kind of unofficial operation, though everybody knows they occur everywhere, is certainly not ratified by the prosecutor, even if emergency justified it. Those (often ex-convicts) that inform the police as well are unofficial and when they're paid it doesn't appear in the accounts.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 11:16:23 AM
No, this kind of unofficial operation, though everybody knows they occur everywhere, is certainly not ratified by the prosecutor, even if emergency justified it. Those (often ex-convicts) that inform the police as well are unofficial and when they're paid it doesn't appear in the accounts.
You mentioned rules. They must be covered in the CPP.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: ferryman on August 30, 2013, 11:16:51 AM
No, this kind of unofficial operation, though everybody knows they occur everywhere, is certainly not ratified by the prosecutor, even if emergency justified it. Those (often ex-convicts) that inform the police as well are unofficial and when they're paid it doesn't appear in the accounts.
... even if emergency justified it.
Nothing justified it ...
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 30, 2013, 11:28:06 AM
So-called leaks from police sources close to the investigation hardly helped, did they?
What didn't help were all the prejudices brandished in defence of a couple who, as history shows, were suspected but never accused. Finding a lost little girl was a strong motive of interest for the Portuguese, giving her parents communion without confession was none.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 11:33:17 AM
I'd agree that that the priority was to find the child and a potential suspect who could have taken her.
So far, no problem.
But this van episode wasn't within hours of her disappearance. The police could have cleared it with the prosecutor beforehand.
IF it had proved relevant, the prosecutor could have given his sanction a posteriori, couldn't he? If so, all that would have meant was whether JT's subsequent statement would have been admitted as evidence or not.
And, as Benice pointed out, it's not clear to me, either, whether Bob Small was actually in the van or not. In view of Amaral's point in his book about wanting someone to shadow UK police officers, I tend to think that it was unlikely. However, someone who spoke English was presumably in that van, but it's not clear who that might have been.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 30, 2013, 11:33:34 AM
What didn't help were all the prejudices brandished in defence of a couple who, as history shows, were suspected but never accused. Finding a lost little girl was a strong motive of interest for the Portuguese, giving her parents communion without confession was none.
What about the prejudices advanced against, such as
swingers?
Chaplains bar
Drove Madleine dead in the Renault
Seen by the Smiths whisking Madeleine past their noses.
Did any of those help?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 30, 2013, 11:37:45 AM
IF it had proved relevant, the prosecutor could have given his sanction a posteriori, couldn't he?
Certainly not. See what happened with the sms ! The judge Frias refused retroactive permission and was confirmed in high court.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 30, 2013, 11:37:55 AM
There was nothing to stop Mr Amaral taking Jane or anyone else for that matter out on a reconnoitre, it wasn't illegal by any means. An ID parade is something entirely different and is governed by strict rules.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 30, 2013, 11:40:04 AM
Why not, why should pink be the appanage of girls ? Anyhow the bottom of the pyjamas Madeleine was supposed to have on is white with tiny designs not especially pink. Don't you remember, Angelo, the little white.. angels (I'm not kidding) !
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 11:47:37 AM
Certainly not. See what happened with the sms ! The judge Frias refused retroactive permission and was confirmed in high court.
That might have been related to the fact that the "messages" were vodafone reminders... If the substance of the actual voicemails had been totally irrelevant, obviously the judge would have excluded them as evidence out of consideration for privacy.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 30, 2013, 11:48:55 AM
If it was Madeleine and it is a big "if" then there are questions which must be asked.
1. Who was carrying her? 2. Where was he going? 3. What was her state of health? 4. Did the parents know? 5. Why did Gerry intercept Jez just as carrier was traversing the top of the road? 6. Was Tanners trip and sighting an unfortunate fluke? 7. Why did Mat not find the window and shutter open? 8. Why was there no sign of a break in? 9. Why did Gerry say he used the front door?
Why are there so many unanswered questions if it was a simple abduction?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 11:51:14 AM
What are these rules in the CPP that would have excluded JT from making a statement if she had, in fact, positively identified Murat during this van operation?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 30, 2013, 11:54:01 AM
There was nothing to stop Mr Amaral taking Jane or anyone else for that matter out on a reconnoitre, it wasn't illegal by any means. An ID parade is something entirely different and is governed by strict rules.
Ms Tanner was the only person to have seen a carrier, except for the Smiths who weren't confronted to Mr Murat since one of the Smiths knew his face and denied it was him. The van unofficial (= off the record) operation occurred on the 13th and the police raid was launched early morning on the 14th.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 30, 2013, 11:55:50 AM
What are these rules in the CPP that would have excluded JT from making a statement if she had, in fact, positively identified Murat during this van operation?
One rule is enough, Carana, and it must be in the human rights. The suspect has the right to know what's going on.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 30, 2013, 11:58:29 AM
If it was Madeleine and it is a big "if" then there are questions which must be asked.
1. Who was carrying her? 2. Where was he going? 3. What was her state of health? 4. Did the parents know? 5. Why did Mat not find the window and shutter open? 6. Why was there no sign of a break in?
Yes. About 5, I would say "why did Mat not find the curtains open ?", as it was the most obvious for the eyes.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 11:58:58 AM
That might have been related to the fact that the "messages" were vodafone reminders... If the substance of the actual voicemails had been totally irrelevant, obviously the judge would have excluded them as evidence out of consideration for privacy.
What sort of evidence do you have that access to "vodafone reminders" were refused to the Public Prosecutor 1) by a judge and 2) by a court ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 12:30:53 PM
If it was Madeleine and it is a big "if" then there are questions which must be asked.
1. Who was carrying her? 2. Where was he going? 3. What was her state of health? 4. Did the parents know? 5. Why did Gerry intercept Jez just as carrier was traversing the top of the road? 6. Was Tanners trip and sighting an unfortunate fluke? 7. Why did Mat not find the window and shutter open? 8. Why was there no sign of a break in? 9. Why did Gerry say he used the front door?
Why are there so many unanswered questions if it was a simple abduction?
The child that JT said she saw may not have been Madeleine. The child that the Smiths said that they'd seen hasn't been identified, either.
One, both, none of them may have been her.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 12:37:30 PM
What sort of evidence do you have that access to "vodafone reminders" were refused to the Public Prosecutor 1) by a judge and 2) by a court ?
Only that a few armchair detectives actually rang up the number to check. The number to ring has changed as has already been pointed out on a different thread.
Who said that vodafone reminders were not accesible to the prosecutor? The reasons for excluding them from any evidence would surely best be known to himself?
Back to the topic: what is in the CPP that would have excluded a posteriori acceptance of the van saga if JT had positively identified Murat?
What would have prevented the PJ from requesting authorisation prior to that event?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 30, 2013, 12:55:06 PM
The child that JT said she saw may not have been Madeleine. The child that the Smiths said that they'd seen hasn't been identified, either.
One, both, none of them may have been her.
Have you read JT's statement where she describes the detail around the bottom of the pyjamas. And why did he rush off almost running with his head averted?
Why has no-one come forward to say it was them? Most decent people (parents) would have done that.
Why, as an presumably experienced parent, (if he wasn't bundleman) did he carry his child in such an awkward way ... as she would soon get VERY heavy carrying that way?
Where was he coming from? Not the OC nannies/ evening creche place for certian and he hadn't come far. That's for sure cos very soon carrying that way the child would have get very very heavy and he would have shifted the weeight to a more normal carrying position.
In the close vicinity there are only the two blocks of Ocean Club and a couple of houses. Nearly 300 yards away, there are the Estrela apartments.
Surely a father would not carry his child on a blustery coolish evening in such an uncovered state for any distance? Nothing at all on her feet
Dont know where I read it, but Jane Tanner was feeling the cold and wearing Russells thick top as she went to and fro.
I think there are a lot of pointers there, Carana, to that little girl being Madeleine
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 30, 2013, 12:58:55 PM
Have you read JT's statement where she describes the detail around the bottom of the pyjamas. And why did he rush off almost running with his head averted?
Why has no-one come forward to say it was them? Most decent people (parents) would have done that.
Why, as an presumably experienced parent, (if he wasn't bundleman) did he carry his child in such an awkward way ... as she would soon get VERY heavy carrying that way?
Where was he coming from? Not the OC nannies/ evening creche place for certian and he hadn't come far. That's for sure cos very soon carrying that way the child would have get very very heavy and he would have shifted the weeight to a more normal carrying position.
In the close vicinity there are only the two blocks of Ocean Club and a couple of houses. Nearly 300 yards away, there are the Estrela apartments.
Surely a father would not carry his child on a blustery coolish evening in such an uncovered state for any distance? Nothing at all on her feet
Dont know where I read it, but Jane Tanner was feeling the cold and wearing Russells thick top as she went to and fro.
I think there are a lot of pointers there, Carana, to that little girl being Madeleine
Tanner did not include the detail around the bottom of the pyjamas until her second statement and therefore of no evidential value.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 01:10:47 PM
Tanner did not include the detail around the bottom of the pyjamas until her second statement and therefore of no evidential value.
Have you found anything to substantiate the notion that any of the early witnesses had actually read a written translation in a language that they understood prior to signing the Portuguese text'
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 01:26:08 PM
Have you read JT's statement where she describes the detail around the bottom of the pyjamas. And why did he rush off almost running with his head averted?
Why has no-one come forward to say it was them? Most decent people (parents) would have done that.
Why, as an presumably experienced parent, (if he wasn't bundleman) did he carry his child in such an awkward way ... as she would soon get VERY heavy carrying that way?
Where was he coming from? Not the OC nannies/ evening creche place for certian and he hadn't come far. That's for sure cos very soon carrying that way the child would have get very very heavy and he would have shifted the weeight to a more normal carrying position.
In the close vicinity there are only the two blocks of Ocean Club and a couple of houses. Nearly 300 yards away, there are the Estrela apartments.
Surely a father would not carry his child on a blustery coolish evening in such an uncovered state for any distance? Nothing at all on her feet
Dont know where I read it, but Jane Tanner was feeling the cold and wearing Russells thick top as she went to and fro.
I think there are a lot of pointers there, Carana, to that little girl being Madeleine
JT or the Smiths may well have seen Madeleine being carried away. However, that doesn't seem to be cast in iron.
There could be many reasons why an innocent person may not have come forward... People may have been appalled at the prospect of finding themselves in Murat's position. Or the person may have been innocent of taking her, but could have been avoiding detection for a totally different issue.
My point is not to exclude others.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 30, 2013, 03:19:07 PM
Ms Tanner didn't see a young girl, Angelo, she saw a couple of calves who could as well belong to a boy.
So why didn't that person come forward then Anne. After all, it would not only be his word he would be asking the PJ to believe - there would also be witnesses at the place he was coming from - and at the place he was going to - who could corroborate his account - also sight of the actual child whom he was carrying would be evidence of his innocent presence near to 5A. So no credible reason at all for him to be wary of going to the police IMO. Exactly the same can be said about the man the Smiths saw.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: John on August 30, 2013, 03:31:19 PM
So why didn't that person come forward then Anne. After all, it would not only be his word he would be asking the PJ to believe - there would also be witnesses at the place he was coming from - and at the place he was going to - who could corroborate his account - also sight of the actual child whom he was carrying would be evidence of his innocent presence near to 5A. So no credible reason at all for him to be wary of going to the police IMO. Exactly the same can be said about the man the Smiths saw.
I agree with this post and the one before by Sadie. The fact that both men were acting suspiciously, were dressed strangely and never came forward suggests an involvement.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 30, 2013, 03:32:56 PM
Tanner did not include the detail around the bottom of the pyjamas until her second statement and therefore of no evidential value.
Why not Faith? It's not unusual for policemen to ask witnesses they have already interviewed not to hesitate to contact them if something comes back to them which they hadn't recalled at the time.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 30, 2013, 04:02:40 PM
Ms Tanner refers only to Bob Small, except for the Spanish police and the fear to be abducted herself...
JT mentions the PJ officer who (after she had failed to identify Murat) rang police HQ to see if she needed to sign anything. To which the reply was obviously 'no'.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 04:37:02 PM
Why not Faith? It's not unusual for policemen to ask witnesses they have already interviewed not to hesitate to contact them if something comes back to them which they hadn't recalled at the time.
I'm not so sure about that.
I'd agree with that in a normal case. But Amaral has never stopped spouting that he'd found Gerry's "change" concerning which door he entered for his check as suspicious. No one has yet been able to point me to where anyone was able to read through a witness statement in their native tongue. I have found no reason why he would lie (particularly in view of the fact that he'd stated that Matt had entered via the patio in the very same initial statement).
Anyone in PdL in potential conflict with the law for a totally different reason could have been strung up as her abductor.
I'm not saying that it isn't odd that no one has come forward... but I could sort of understand why some people may not have come forward if they knew they were innocent.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 30, 2013, 05:15:27 PM
Ms Tanner didn't see a young girl, Angelo, she saw a couple of calves who could as well belong to a boy.
If the calves had belonged to a boy, the carrier of that boy - e.g. a father carrying his child home from a babysitter - would have nothing to fear in coming forward to the police to be ruled out of the investigation.
But he didn't.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Lace on August 30, 2013, 05:20:19 PM
I remember reading that Jane said she mentioned what she thought was a 'turn up' on the bottom of the pyjama's that the child was wearing.
When she was helped to try and remember what she saw by a specialist in this procedure [can't remember what what the specialist would have been called ] she mentioned this 'turn up' that she saw.
Apparently, Madeleine's pyjama's had a ruffle of some sort at the bottom of the legs, Jane says she thought it was a turn up but it could well have been a ruffle.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: John on August 30, 2013, 05:47:18 PM
If the calves had belonged to a boy, the carrier of that boy - e.g. a father carrying his child home from a babysitter - would have nothing to fear in coming forward to the police to be ruled out of the investigation.
But he didn't.
Good point Sherlock! 8@??)(
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 06:18:24 PM
If the calves had belonged to a boy, the carrier of that boy - e.g. a father carrying his child home from a babysitter - would have nothing to fear in coming forward to the police to be ruled out of the investigation.
But he didn't.
In theory, I'd agree, except for the reasons I've given. Even carrying a son home could have been an issue if the family weren't all legally there, for example.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 30, 2013, 06:56:04 PM
In theory, I'd agree, except for the reasons I've given. Even carrying a son home could have been an issue if the family weren't all legally there, for example.
I aqree, Carana, that there are all sorts of good reasons why a person innocent of a particular crime would still not want to present themselves to the police, illegal status being one of them.
Another major reason for keeping quiet, obviously, would be to avoid being dragged into such a sprawling investigation as this one.
The parent / innocent carrier of a male child in this instance would have much less concern about that, however, and therefore on the whole would be significantly less likely to want to avoid presenting himself, other issues in his life notwithstanding.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 07:10:58 PM
I aqree, Carana, that there are all sorts of good reasons why a person innocent of a particular crime would still not want to present themselves to the police, illegal status being one of them.
Another major reason for keeping quiet, obviously, would be to avoid being dragged into such a sprawling investigation as this one.
The parent / innocent carrier of a male child in this instance would have much less concern about that, however, and therefore on the whole would be significantly less likely to want to avoid presenting himself, other issues in his life notwithstanding.
Hmmmmm. Even someone who (or whose family members) didn't have EU citizenship?
Again, I find it plausible that one or the other or both sightings could have been of the child.
I simply wouldn't exclude that neither may have been.
Would anything exclude someone having rung Crimestoppers anonymously?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 30, 2013, 07:20:01 PM
There might well be reasons why one man didn't come forward but two or was it the same man??
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 30, 2013, 07:21:44 PM
Hmmmmm. Even someone who (or whose family members) didn't have EU citizenship?
Again, I find it plausible that one or the other or both sightings could have been of the child.
I simply wouldn't exclude that neither may have been.
Would anything exclude someone having rung Crimestoppers anonymously?
Well, if the person was an illegal, that may be a concern. But in terms of likelihood in this case, wouldn't the vast majority of the holidaymakers and local residents be EU citizens?
There are of course instances where police are in such need of information from a particular person that they are lenient on that person in coming forward, with respect to other crimes they may have been involved in. Maybe that's not how things work in Portugal, however...
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 30, 2013, 07:28:31 PM
There might well be reasons why one man didn't come forward but two or was it the same man??
Too much of a co-incidence that two different, innocent men would be carrying similar-looking children and in addition to that both have equally strong personal reasons for not coming forward.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 07:56:02 PM
Too much of a co-incidence that two different, innocent men would be carrying similar-looking children and in addition to that both have equally strong personal reasons for not coming forward.
Would it? It might be too much of a coincidence, indeed. On the other hand, it was a tourist resort and would attract people trying to find easy job opportunities.
If ever they were the same person, it could still be someone who didn't particularly wish to be identified.
Back to the other perspective, one or both could indeed be the person carrying her.
If only they had had CCTV.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 30, 2013, 08:34:50 PM
Would it? It might be too much of a coincidence, indeed. On the other hand, it was a tourist resort and would attract people trying to find easy job opportunities.
If ever they were the same person, it could still be someone who didn't particularly wish to be identified.
Back to the other perspective, one or both could indeed be the person carrying her.
If only they had had CCTV.
Most if not all of the people who would be legally eligible for employment would have to be EU citizens. Someone coming from another continent would not be eligible for legal work, or any kind of financial support in lieu of it. A big city would have far more opportunities for cash in hand jobs.
If bundleman was an innocent parent walking with his child, he would most likely have been a legal resident and therefore not concerned about immigration issues.
He may not have wanted to get roped into such a big case right on his doorstep for other reasons, of course...
In the unlikely event of an 'innocent' bundleman being an illegal immigrant living in or near the town, he possibly would have distinguished himself in doing or making inquiries about unofficial work, and may have been noted by locals, especially if he had a young child living with him. Who was that child? Would she have gone to a playgroup/nursery? If she had been with a babysitter that night, doesn't the babysitter remember her father collecting her at that time? Who was the child's mother?...So many questions. Nobody in town, apparently, connected any such hypothetical dots and saw fit to come forward.
Innocent or guilty, it is hard to believe the two sightings are not of the same person. Too many similarities: physical descriptions given by independent witnesses; wandering around at a similar time of night; the fact they were both carrying an uncovered child in the cold night air.
Yes, how different things would have been with those cameras...
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on August 31, 2013, 12:34:52 AM
Innocent or guilty, it is hard to believe the two sightings are not of the same person. Too many similarities: physical descriptions given by independent witnesses; wandering around at a similar time of night; the fact they were both carrying an uncovered child in the cold night air.
Yes, how different things would have been with those cameras...
I agree. There are just too many similarities in the descriptions IMO for it to be two different men. The fact that the child had bare feet, pajamas and no blanket or coat on a chilly night does definitely suggest to me that she had been taken from her bed in haste and not collected from a babysitter who - especially if that babysitter was someone like her grandmother or another relative - would simply not have allowed that to happen.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 31, 2013, 01:08:28 AM
If the calves had belonged to a boy, the carrier of that boy - e.g. a father carrying his child home from a babysitter - would have nothing to fear in coming forward to the police to be ruled out of the investigation.
But he didn't.
Good point Sherlock 8((()*/
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: sadie on August 31, 2013, 01:29:00 AM
If it was Madeleine and it is a big "if" then there are questions which must be asked.
1. Who was carrying her? 2. Where was he going? 3. What was her state of health? 4. Did the parents know? 5. Why did Gerry intercept Jez just as carrier was traversing the top of the road? 6. Was Tanners trip and sighting an unfortunate fluke? 7. Why did Mat not find the window and shutter open? 8. Why was there no sign of a break in? 9. Why did Gerry say he used the front door?
Why are there so many unanswered questions if it was a simple abduction?
I am tired and I am only going to answer one of these questions atm
1) When he looked into the room he said, IIRC, that the door was already open about 50* This is a photograph of the bedroom taken with the door wide open.
Also despite someone (was it Faith?) stating that Matt took the long way round back to 5A from his apartment ... and why didn't he see the shutters up etc. ... he did not.
At about 9.30 pm Matt and Russell each checked their own children and intended to check the MCCann children together, so Matt went to Russells apartment to meet up for the return journey. One of his children was ill and so Russell stayed there, but he let Matt out via the patio door at the back. Matt took the short alleyway route to 5A
To this end, he took the quickest route between ROB's apartment and the side garden gate entrance to the rear patio of the McCann residence, to which he gained access through the glass sliding door into the apartment lounge. The door was closed but not locked as KM had said it would be.
So without a second thought Angelo, you can scribe number 7 off your list
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 31, 2013, 02:26:47 AM
I agree. There are just too many similarities in the descriptions IMO for it to be two different men. The fact that the child had bare feet, pajamas and no blanket or coat on a chilly night does definitely suggest to me that she had been taken from her bed in haste and not collected from a babysitter who - especially if that babysitter was someone like her grandmother or another relative - would simply not have allowed that to happen.
A good point about the blanket, Benice, the absence of which seems to me to indicate that, unfortunately, she was in the arms of someone who gave no thought to her welfare at any level. No loving 'adoptive' parents here.
In the cold night air she could have caught a chill, making her more difficult to look after and potentially more difficult to conceal. Not a smart move from that angle either.
The lack of blanket also begs the question as to why bundleman, if he had been indoors at any point between the two sightings, such as the staff quarters as Sadie suggests, did not find something to cover her with for when he took her back outside - if only to render her less less identifiable.
If our sightings had been of a child of indeterminate sex, followed by a child almost fully covered up by a blanket, it would have been a much bigger stretch to say it was the same child. As things stand, there is a great deal to suggest that the same man and child were involved.
Back to my original thesis that bundleman was not the brightest button on the garment....
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 31, 2013, 09:23:35 AM
Well, if the person was an illegal, that may be a concern. But in terms of likelihood in this case, wouldn't the vast majority of the holidaymakers and local residents be EU citizens?
There are of course instances where police are in such need of information from a particular person that they are lenient on that person in coming forward, with respect to other crimes they may have been involved in. Maybe that's not how things work in Portugal, however...
Jenny Murat seemed to think there could be reasons why someone wouldn't want to go directly to the police...
Seasonal workers? People working on the black? Eastern Europeans? Moroccans? Police reputation? Someone having an affair? Media intrusion?
I'm not so sure that someone carrying a male child would necessarily think to come forward. And not all of the informal GNR interviews appear to be recorded in the files. Would the GNR have recorded a man casually saying that he didn't notice anyone carrying a little girl when he was carrying his son home? Or would the GNR have found it insignificant as the guy didn't have any useful information on the missing little girl?
I'm not so sure that someone carrying a female relative would necessarily have come forward, either. Once Murat had been made arguido, it might have been easy enough to think the PJ had got their man. And then when allegations about the parents and some of the T7 started, it might have been even less incentive to come forward.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2013, 05:26:43 PM
I remember reading that Jane said she mentioned what she thought was a 'turn up' on the bottom of the pyjama's that the child was wearing.
When she was helped to try and remember what she saw by a specialist in this procedure [can't remember what what the specialist would have been called ] she mentioned this 'turn up' that she saw.
Apparently, Madeleine's pyjama's had a ruffle of some sort at the bottom of the legs, Jane says she thought it was a turn up but it could well have been a ruffle.
Tanner only mentioned on turn up in her second interview when there was every possibly there had been collusion between the witnesses and that possible collusion renders her claim of no evidential value.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on August 31, 2013, 05:52:56 PM
Tanner only mentioned on turn up in her second interview when there was every possibly there had been collusion between the witnesses and that possible collusion renders her claim of no evidential value.
Really?
Witness Statement
Jane Michelle Tanner
Date 2007-05-04
Time: 11.30
(**) About the child whom appeared to be sleeping, she only saw her legs. The child appeared to be older than a baby. She was barefoot and was wearing what appeared to be cotton pyjamas of a light colour (possibly white or light pink). She is not certain, but has the impression a design on the pyjamas, possibly a floral pattern, but she is not certain.
As regards these details, she does not know what Madeleine was wearing at the moment of her disappearance, because she did not talk to anyone about this. As she concerns the man she saw, she only spoke to Gerald about this, not entering into details, and to the police.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm
AUTO examination of witnesses Date diligence: 2007/05/10 Time: 16h35m Name: Jane Michelle Tanner
About the description of the child, she confirmed that it was being carried in his arms, with the legs in her direction and barefoot. She thought that it was a female child because the pyjamas were a light colour (seemingly pink to her). She never saw the hair of the child. She never saw it move nor make any sound, thinking that it was asleep.
Jane Tanner - Record Of Tape Recorded Interview IV
L E I C E S T E R S H I R E C O N S T A B U L A R Y
Form MG15(T)
RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No SVF/108A
Person Interviewed: Jane TANNER Number of Pages 46
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters Enderby Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview: 08/04/08 Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 1349 hours
“And then think about the child again, as much as you can see of that child in that split second, and tell me what you saw?”
Reply “Well, again, I mean, and this is, I think initially I couldn’t really bring, I could only really remember the feet. But the day after, when we had, they, at the interview, the person that was interviewing was really pushing me to try and, you know, remember any more details, and the one thing that I could really think was, erm, a turn-up of some description. And I don’t know whether this made it into my statement, but there was, and this is the thing that convinces me it was her, there was, erm, sort of the pyjamas were, there was some sort of, I thought it was a turn-up, but some sort of design on the bottom of the pyjamas. And I did say it in my first statement and in my second statement I can remember saying it again and, erm, the translator in there, because I said ‘I don’t know whether this made it into my first statement or not’, but the translator sort of went ‘Oh yes, I can remember you going like this’, because I was moving my hands up, but I was sort of talking about something at the bottom of the pyjamas. Because, from my own point of view, and I think, you know, ‘Oh was I trying to’, I can think that I would think ‘Oh maybe a little girl would be wearing pink pyjamas’, so, you know, if you were subconsciously putting things in your head, I can think pink pyjamas, yes, but I wouldn’t think of some detail around the bottom of the pyjamas as a specific thing to, to mention”.
4078 “And when you noticed the detail was it in any colour?”
Reply “I don’t, I didn’t know, I thought there was sort of a pink flowery bit on, bit on it, but, no, I mean, the actual frill itself or turn-up, as I thought it was, I couldn’t think of the colour, but I thought there was pink sort of flowery and sort of like liney bits on the bottom, so”.
(**) About the child whom appeared to be sleeping, she only saw her legs. The child appeared to be older than a baby. She was barefoot and was wearing what appeared to be cotton pyjamas of a light colour (possibly white or light pink). She is not certain, but has the impression a design on the pyjamas, possibly a floral pattern, but she is not certain.
As regards these details, she does not know what Madeleine was wearing at the moment of her disappearance, because she did not talk to anyone about this. As she concerns the man she saw, she only spoke to Gerald about this, not entering into details, and to the police.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm
AUTO examination of witnesses Date diligence: 2007/05/10 Time: 16h35m Name: Jane Michelle Tanner
About the description of the child, she confirmed that it was being carried in his arms, with the legs in her direction and barefoot. She thought that it was a female child because the pyjamas were a light colour (seemingly pink to her). She never saw the hair of the child. She never saw it move nor make any sound, thinking that it was asleep.
Jane Tanner - Record Of Tape Recorded Interview IV
L E I C E S T E R S H I R E C O N S T A B U L A R Y
Form MG15(T)
RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No SVF/108A
Person Interviewed: Jane TANNER Number of Pages 46
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters Enderby Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview: 08/04/08 Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 1349 hours
“And then think about the child again, as much as you can see of that child in that split second, and tell me what you saw?”
Reply “Well, again, I mean, and this is, I think initially I couldn’t really bring, I could only really remember the feet. But the day after, when we had, they, at the interview, the person that was interviewing was really pushing me to try and, you know, remember any more details, and the one thing that I could really think was, erm, a turn-up of some description. And I don’t know whether this made it into my statement, but there was, and this is the thing that convinces me it was her, there was, erm, sort of the pyjamas were, there was some sort of, I thought it was a turn-up, but some sort of design on the bottom of the pyjamas. And I did say it in my first statement and in my second statement I can remember saying it again and, erm, the translator in there, because I said ‘I don’t know whether this made it into my first statement or not’, but the translator sort of went ‘Oh yes, I can remember you going like this’, because I was moving my hands up, but I was sort of talking about something at the bottom of the pyjamas. Because, from my own point of view, and I think, you know, ‘Oh was I trying to’, I can think that I would think ‘Oh maybe a little girl would be wearing pink pyjamas’, so, you know, if you were subconsciously putting things in your head, I can think pink pyjamas, yes, but I wouldn’t think of some detail around the bottom of the pyjamas as a specific thing to, to mention”.
4078 “And when you noticed the detail was it in any colour?”
Reply “I don’t, I didn’t know, I thought there was sort of a pink flowery bit on, bit on it, but, no, I mean, the actual frill itself or turn-up, as I thought it was, I couldn’t think of the colour, but I thought there was pink sort of flowery and sort of like liney bits on the bottom, so”.
Tanner only mentioned on turn up in her second interview when there was every possibly there had been collusion between the witnesses and that possible collusion renders her claim of no evidential value.
My point, not in her 1st or 2nd statements.
But she mentioned it in all 3 statements, and it wasn't translated that she had!
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2013, 06:40:25 PM
'(**) About the child whom appeared to be sleeping, she only saw her legs. The child appeared to be older than a baby. She was barefoot and was wearing what appeared to be cotton pyjamas of a light colour (possibly white or light pink). She is not certain, but has the impression a design on the pyjamas, possibly a floral pattern, but she is not certain.' ' May 10th statement :
'About the description of the child, she confirmed that it was being carried in his arms, with the legs in her direction and barefoot. She thought that it was a female child because the pyjamas were a light colour (seemingly pink to her). She never saw the hair of the child. She never saw it move nor make any sound, thinking that it was asleep.'
So no turn-up there. In fact the only mention of a turn-up I can find before Tanner's rogatory statement is in the collaborative timeline handed into the PJ on the 10th of May :
' She did not seem to be wrapped up well for the time of night wearing only pyjamas; the trousers were lightly coloured with a floral element, possibly with turn-ups '
As the McCanns helped compile this timeline the turn-up claim has no evidential value as Tanner could have gleaned the information from them.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2013, 08:11:52 PM
(**) About the child whom appeared to be sleeping, she only saw her legs. The child appeared to be older than a baby. She was barefoot and was wearing what appeared to be cotton pyjamas of a light colour (possibly white or light pink). She is not certain, but has the impression a design on the pyjamas, possibly a floral pattern, but she is not certain.
As regards these details, she does not know what Madeleine was wearing at the moment of her disappearance, because she did not talk to anyone about this. As she concerns the man she saw, she only spoke to Gerald about this, not entering into details, and to the police.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm
AUTO examination of witnesses Date diligence: 2007/05/10 Time: 16h35m Name: Jane Michelle Tanner
About the description of the child, she confirmed that it was being carried in his arms, with the legs in her direction and barefoot. She thought that it was a female child because the pyjamas were a light colour (seemingly pink to her). She never saw the hair of the child. She never saw it move nor make any sound, thinking that it was asleep.
Jane Tanner - Record Of Tape Recorded Interview IV
L E I C E S T E R S H I R E C O N S T A B U L A R Y
Form MG15(T)
RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No SVF/108A
Person Interviewed: Jane TANNER Number of Pages 46
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters Enderby Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview: 08/04/08 Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 1349 hours
“And then think about the child again, as much as you can see of that child in that split second, and tell me what you saw?”
Reply “Well, again, I mean, and this is, I think initially I couldn’t really bring, I could only really remember the feet. But the day after, when we had, they, at the interview, the person that was interviewing was really pushing me to try and, you know, remember any more details, and the one thing that I could really think was, erm, a turn-up of some description. And I don’t know whether this made it into my statement, but there was, and this is the thing that convinces me it was her, there was, erm, sort of the pyjamas were, there was some sort of, I thought it was a turn-up, but some sort of design on the bottom of the pyjamas. And I did say it in my first statement and in my second statement I can remember saying it again and, erm, the translator in there, because I said ‘I don’t know whether this made it into my first statement or not’, but the translator sort of went ‘Oh yes, I can remember you going like this’, because I was moving my hands up, but I was sort of talking about something at the bottom of the pyjamas. Because, from my own point of view, and I think, you know, ‘Oh was I trying to’, I can think that I would think ‘Oh maybe a little girl would be wearing pink pyjamas’, so, you know, if you were subconsciously putting things in your head, I can think pink pyjamas, yes, but I wouldn’t think of some detail around the bottom of the pyjamas as a specific thing to, to mention”.
4078 “And when you noticed the detail was it in any colour?”
Reply “I don’t, I didn’t know, I thought there was sort of a pink flowery bit on, bit on it, but, no, I mean, the actual frill itself or turn-up, as I thought it was, I couldn’t think of the colour, but I thought there was pink sort of flowery and sort of like liney bits on the bottom, so”.
I stand corrected DCI. She didn't mention the turn-up in her second interview either. It was only a year later, in her rogatory interview, that the detail that convinced Tanner that it was Madeleine being carried actually made it into one of her statements.
I wonder if that was one of the things discussed at their Rothley meeting ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on August 31, 2013, 08:21:52 PM
It would have been so much easier if all of these statements had been recorded verbatim.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2013, 08:24:20 PM
It would have been so much easier if all of these statements had been recorded verbatim.
Tanner signed the statements as a true record of what she said. If something as significant as she later claimed the turn-up was was left out she would have said at the time.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on August 31, 2013, 08:29:28 PM
Tanner signed the statements as a true record of what she said. If something as significant as she later claimed the turn-up was was left out she would have said at the time.
AUTO examination of witnesses Date diligence: 2007/05/10 Time: 16h35m
Tanner signed the statements as a true record of what she said. If something as significant as she later claimed the turn-up was was left out she would have said at the time.
You still seem to assume that she signed a statement having read it in her own mother tongue.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2013, 08:36:50 PM
Jenny Murat seemed to think there could be reasons why someone wouldn't want to go directly to the police...
Seasonal workers? People working on the black? Eastern Europeans? Moroccans? Police reputation? Someone having an affair? Media intrusion?
I'm not so sure that someone carrying a male child would necessarily think to come forward. And not all of the informal GNR interviews appear to be recorded in the files. Would the GNR have recorded a man casually saying that he didn't notice anyone carrying a little girl when he was carrying his son home? Or would the GNR have found it insignificant as the guy didn't have any useful information on the missing little girl?
I'm not so sure that someone carrying a female relative would necessarily have come forward, either. Once Murat had been made arguido, it might have been easy enough to think the PJ had got their man. And then when allegations about the parents and some of the T7 started, it might have been even less incentive to come forward.
All good points, Carana. But for every reason for not going to the police, there could equally be reasons why a person would. The seriousness of the crime might motivate someone, especially a parent of a young child, to feel morally obligated to give information.
People's situations also change drastically. A person's immigration, work, marital status, personal loyalties etc. - things that would affect a decision to go to the police - can change completely, even within a short period of time. A person who held back at the beginning might feel safe to come forward later on if their personal circumstances changed. Yet in the 7 years since the disappearance, no-one has come forward. Yes, the PJ named their arguidos, but that was a long time ago, since which time the case remains high profile and unsolved.
I also feel that the carrier of a male child would at least consider coming forward, the publicity aspect being such that it is common knowledge that a man was spotted with a child walking past 5A at a particular time, whom the police were obviously looking to identify. Anyone in the town that night would remember exactly where they were and what they were doing, and surely would ask themselves if their movements would have had any bearing on the investigation. I cannot imagine that the GNR would not question or record this type of 'witness' properly - but perhaps I'm giving them too much credit.
This is virtually moot anyhow, because, annoying a witness as Jane Tanner was (um, er, I think, um, sort of, um, well, you know, um....), the bottom line is that her overall description of man and child is sufficiently similar to the Smith description as to be considered corroborated.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2013, 10:52:57 PM
Exactly, and it isn't Jane's statement, but someone saying what she is supposed to have said.
So are you now admitting that Tanner didn't mention turn-ups on the pyjamas until her rogatory interview and that she did in fact sign her May 10th statement when you had suggested that she hadn't ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 02, 2013, 11:12:25 AM
Back on topic again, Mr Amaral and his detectives involved in the hunt for Madeleine were pursuing two different lines of enquiry up until the point of his removal from the case. On the one hand they were investigating a possible abduction while on the other, an accidental death and a cover up.
As time went by however, it was the latter which came into favour and ended with the McCanns and Murat being designated as arguidos.
What was it about Robert Murat which made the PJ and the Press so confident that he was somehow involved? Was it all down to a terrible misunderstanding?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on September 02, 2013, 01:21:04 PM
Back on topic again, Mr Amaral and his detectives involved in the hunt for Madeleine were pursuing two different lines of enquiry up until the point of his removal from the case. On the one hand they were investigating a possible abduction while on the other, an accidental death and a cover up.
As time went by however, it was the latter which came into favour and ended with the McCanns and Murat being designated as arguidos.
What was it about Robert Murat which made the PJ and the Press so confident that he was somehow involved? Was it all down to a terrible misunderstanding?
Have you read the files on that?
Murat was made arguido very early on. Lori Campbell seemed to have set the ball rolling by finding him too helpful. I had assumed that she was responsible for the stories in the tabloids, but she may not have been. Anyway, her suspicion leaked and from then on it seemed that he was tabloid fodder and subject to suggestibility issues.
The PJ were right to interview him, in my view, but in an ideal world this could have happened quietly without him being subject to the extent of atrocious media coverage.
Much of this seems to be down to the exaggerated sense of what arguido actually means, the lack of any organised PJ media desk, what may have been a legal loophole in reporting on news involving people from other countries, and all the rest of it.
The bottom line seems to have been that the "Maddie" story was media heaven, selling papers and advertising space without any real news.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 06, 2013, 09:50:24 AM
Clearly there were suspicions from several sources both British and Portuguese very early on that the parents were involved. The abduction theory was put under considerable strain when the initial forensics revealed that no intruder entered the apartment using the children's bedroom window.
The sighting by Tanner effectively ruled Gerry McCann out as the carrier even though the later evidence by at least two members of the Smith family appeared to throw doubt on this.
Murat was put in the frame by several members of the tapas group even though he was adamant that he didn't leave home the night Madeleine disappeared. He was followed, his phones were monitored and his involvement with the Russian Malinka was made the subject of much investigation.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on September 06, 2013, 01:01:04 PM
Seems very early on and a matter of a mere13 hours it wasn't just the Portuguese who thought the McCanns were involved in Madeleine's disappearance. The comments about Dr Payne are also most revealing!!
So who else thought the McCanns were involved in Madeleine's disappearance, in that time? What comments are they, Angelo. Did you read what Dr Payne's interviewer thought of Katherine Gaspar's statement.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 06, 2013, 05:24:37 PM
So who else thought the McCanns were involved in Madeleine's disappearance, in that time? What comments are they, Angelo. Did you read what Dr Payne's interviewer thought of Katherine Gaspar's statement.
Yvonne Martin obviously by her own statements and her interview before PJ Inspector José Monteiro on 13th June 2007 at the Portimao DIC where she identified David Payne as being one of the persons who spoke with her the day after Madeleine disappeared.
Quote: ...she wrote an anonymous letter to the British police, telling them the following: : regarding the various details she observed during her contact with the McCanns it is her opinion that they could be in some way involved in the disappearance of Madeleine.
Yvonne Martin obviously by her own statements and her interview before PJ Inspector José Monteiro on 13th June 2007 at the Portimao DIC where she identified David Payne as being one of the persons who spoke with her the day after Madeleine disappeared.
Quote: ...she wrote an anonymous letter to the British police, telling them the following: : regarding the various details she observed during her contact with the McCanns it is her opinion that they could be in some way involved in the disappearance of Madeleine.
Your second quote is from her 14/11/2007 statement, and she doesn't mention this till that date! Then she or the translator repeats it twice, with variations!
Witness Statement
Date: 2007/11/14 Time: 10H30 Place: DIC Portimao
Name: YVONNE WARREN MARTIN
So she could have known David Payne as a colleague. She adds that her hypothesis is that she may have come to know him professionally through work, potentially having been colleagues at work or have worked at the same place but she cannot be certain where she met him as she does not remember
She says that about two weeks after Madeleine's disappearance, when the police made an appeal for information about a man, carrying a child, who had been seen in the Luz zone, and whose clothing was described, she wrote an anonymous letter to the British police, telling them the following: : regarding the various details she observed during her contact with the McCanns it is her opinion that they could be in some way involved in the disappearance of Madeleine.
She first found them aggressive and their reaction after she showed Madeleine's parents her credentials, also seemed strange to her. Afterwards she was informed that there were no signs of a break-in in the apartment. Knowing that they are doctors she found it absolutely abnormal that they left their children alone at home. Associating all of this with her professional experience, which tells her that in 99.99 % of missing children cases, the parents or other family members are involved, she felt it was her duty to inform the police of this.
She did this anonymously because she did not want to be bothered by the media. But she also states that according to what she remembers, when she met with Madeleine's parents, David Payne, who was with them, was wearing a dark polo shirt, blue or black coloured, cream coloured long trousers, of linen or cotton, and dark shoes (sandal/slipper type without a back buckle/catch). In her opinion, this clothing matches perfectly with the clothing the Police described the man (carrying the child) to be wearing at the time. All these coincidences made the witness think that the parents and their friends could possibly be involved in the disappearance of the child.
She declares that one of her main aims when she wrote the anonymous letter was for the British police to check the paedophile or child abusers registers and whether David Payne was on that list.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: John on September 07, 2013, 01:15:37 AM
Clearly there were suspicions from several sources both British and Portuguese very early on that the parents were involved. The abduction theory was put under considerable strain when the initial forensics revealed that no intruder entered the apartment using the children's bedroom window.
The sighting by Tanner effectively ruled Gerry McCann out as the carrier even though the later evidence by at least two members of the Smith family appeared to throw doubt on this.
Murat was put in the frame by several members of the tapas group even though he was adamant that he didn't leave home the night Madeleine disappeared. He was followed, his phones were monitored and his involvement with the Russian Malinka was made the subject of much investigation.
So let's see what this amounts to. If Señor Amaral and his colleagues were of the opinion that the carrier seen by Tanner was connected with Madeleine and also of the opinion that the McCanns were somehow complicit in this, then the only conclusion one can come to logically is that the carrier was acting on behalf of the parents.
Having said that however, this is where the entire 'the parents dunnit' scenario falls apart since how could they have possibly arranged this in the short period of time available to them and taking into account they were in a foreign country and didn't know any of the local hoods?
If I recall correctly, even Amaral had difficulty with this point.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Lyall on September 07, 2013, 01:26:50 AM
Murat was made arguido very early on. Lori Campbell seemed to have set the ball rolling by finding him too helpful. I had assumed that she was responsible for the stories in the tabloids, but she may not have been. Anyway, her suspicion leaked and from then on it seemed that he was tabloid fodder and subject to suggestibility issues.
Leaked? She didn't look at all reluctant to be in front of the cameras. Quite the opposite.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Albertini on September 07, 2013, 09:53:40 AM
So let's see what this amounts to. If Señor Amaral and his colleagues were of the opinion that the carrier seen by Tanner was connected with Madeleine and also of the opinion that the McCanns were somehow complicit in this, then the only conclusion one can come to logically is that the carrier was acting on behalf of the parents.
Having said that however, this is where the entire 'the parents dunnit' scenario falls apart since how could they have possibly arranged this in the short period of time available to them and taking into account they were in a foreign country and didn't know any of the local hoods?
If I recall correctly, even Amaral had difficulty with this point.
From reading Amaral's book and the interim report i think the officers were of the view that the Tanner sighting was false.
From memory they did not believe that Tanner could have walked past them without either Gerry or Jez seeing her, or indeed seen the same man Tanner claims to have seen walking across the top of the street.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on September 07, 2013, 11:27:15 AM
From reading Amaral's book and the interim report i think the officers were of the view that the Tanner sighting was false.
From memory they did not believe that Tanner could have walked past them without either Gerry or Jez seeing her, or indeed seen the same man Tanner claims to have seen walking across the top of the street.
There may have been another contributing issue: the initial eggman "e-fit". Amaral may not have realised that Jane couldn't provide the details necessary for a traditional e-fit portrait of the person as she saw him from the side, nor that the police didn't have software or a police artist to reconstruct her description.
He may have thought she was being obtuse for nefarious reasons in producing a blank face.
I could sort of understand that (if that were the case), but then I wonder how he could not know what forensic resources the police actually had...
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2013, 11:30:35 AM
There may have been another contributing issue: the initial eggman "e-fit". Amaral may not have realised that Jane couldn't provide the details necessary for a traditional e-fit portrait of the person as she saw him from the side, nor that the police didn't have software or a police artist to reconstruct her description.
He may have thought she was being obtuse for nefarious reasons in producing a blank face.
I could sort of understand that (if that were the case), but then I wonder how he could not know what forensic resources the police actually had...
Rebelo also doubted Tanner's sighting. The reasons the reconstruction was needed demonstrates this.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on September 07, 2013, 11:34:04 AM
Sketches executed with the indications of a witness didn't wait computer software and e-fits to exist ! Ms Tanner had obviously a mental block about the face, as the picture produced 5 months later shows (meanwhile her memory had improved, but the face curiously remained a complete blank).
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2013, 12:05:22 PM
From reading Amaral's book and the interim report i think the officers were of the view that the Tanner sighting was false.
From memory they did not believe that Tanner could have walked past them without either Gerry or Jez seeing her, or indeed seen the same man Tanner claims to have seen walking across the top of the street.
Indeed Albertini. From the AG's Archiving Dispatch :
'Addressing now, and specifically, the question relative to the diligence known as the "reconstitution of the facts" (Article 150º of the Penal Process Code), which was not performed due to the refusal of some of the integral members of the holiday group to return to our country (as documented in the Inquiry), the same would have clarified, duly and in the location of the disappearance, the following extremely important details, amongst others:
pages 55 and 56
. The physical, real and effective, proximity between JANE TANNER, GERALD McCANN and JEREMY WILKINS, at the moment when the former passed them, and which coincided with the sighting of the supposed suspect, carrying a child. It results, from our understanding, as unusual that neither GERALD McCANN nor JEREMY WILKINS did not see her, nor the alleged abductor, despite the small dimensions of the space;'
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on September 07, 2013, 12:15:32 PM
Sketches executed with the indications of a witness didn't wait computer software and e-fits to exist ! Ms Tanner had obviously a mental block about the face, as the picture produced 5 months later shows (meanwhile her memory had improved, but the face curiously remained a complete blank).
So where is the PJ's artist's sketch of bundleman?
Where is one of the Smith sighting?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: John on September 07, 2013, 06:07:30 PM
Leaked? She didn't look at all reluctant to be in front of the cameras. Quite the opposite.
Just say for the sake of it that Murat had been so stupid or so naive as to have abducted a little girl on his own doorstep, does anyone think for a moment that he would have returned minutes later to the scene or would have made his presence known to the police and press the following day? Only a deranged idiot would have done such a thing and Murat is certainly not that.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: John on September 07, 2013, 06:20:31 PM
As far as the Jane Tanner sighting is concerned I have no reason for not believing it. Having viewed the reconstruction video I find it very hard to believe that she was anything other than truthful and honest.
Gerry and Jez were both far enough down the road so as not to have noticed Bundleman. I do find it strange however that neither of them saw Jane passing especially when there was a streetlight nearby.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Redblossom on September 07, 2013, 06:58:50 PM
The point is the dates, Angelo. You said it was from Jane's statement on 13th June 2007 at the Portimao DIC.
I pointed out it was from her 14th November 2007 statement, 5 months later.
Oh I see. Point is though, regardless of when she made the statements she made the point that she doubted the parents credibility from day 1.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 08, 2013, 02:25:50 AM
Thanks for posting that video link Red.
That silly cow is such a knobhead!! I hope Robert sues her f..king ass off! It never ceases to amaze me how far these reporters are up their own backsides. Who the hell does she think she is that Lori Campbell?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 08, 2013, 02:48:40 AM
She was suspicious of him just because he wouldn't give her his life story. Jesssus give me strength!!
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on September 08, 2013, 03:05:23 AM
Why she "became suspicious" ? "Rob became very concerned when he noticed his photo being taken by the Mirror's photographer" !!!
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: John on September 08, 2013, 03:25:14 AM
Why she "became suspicious" ? "Rob became very concerned when he noticed his photo being taken by the Mirror's photographer" !!!
I know exactly how he felt. Just recently I had a reporter from a Scottish rag trying to get info from me for free. I just ignored him.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on September 08, 2013, 07:46:14 AM
According to his book it was Amaral himself who first instigated enquiries into Murat..
Quote from his book Chapter 7
Instead of taking the exit road for Portimao, I continue my journey on the motorway. I need to reconstruct the individual's path. If he had planned his crime, he probably wouldn't have taken this direction. And if, on the other hand, he hadn't planned it? I need to work it out for myself. In Vilada Luz, I park my car below the apartment blocks. Journalists are on the lookout around the apartment; fortunately, they don't see me. I walk the same route that the stranger must have taken. I arrive in front of a house with a neglected garden. Inside, there are two parked cars, whose registration numbers I note down. I communicate the numbers to the police in Portimao and wait there for the result of the check. After a few minutes, a green vehicle, driven by an individual wearing glasses, stops in front of the entrance to the house. The driver goes in quickly. His face is familiar to me but I don't know who he is. I notice a child's seat inside the car. The man comes back out a little later, supporting an elderly lady whom he accompanies towards the area of the swimming pools and the Tapas restaurant. They cross a park where a few buildings have been erected. Madeleine's parents took this route to take their children to the play centre, near the main reception area of the hotel complex. Since the start of the investigation , a team has been permanently on the premises and an apartment has been placed at their disposal. I am about to make enquiries of the police officer on duty when the individual comes back from his walk and greets him as he passes.
- You know that man?
- Yes, he presented himself to the GNR on Friday morning and offered his services as an interpreter. He is of English origin but speaks good Portuguese. He's called Robert Murat.
As the law demands, all foreign people interviewed by the police must have the benefit of an interpreter. In this investigation, the considerable number of interviews we had to conduct in record time forced us to call on the services of volunteers.
- And this guy, you checked him out? No criminal record or trouble with the law?
- No, no, it's all OK, but I didn't know he lived here. It's true that his house is on the route taken by the abductor.
- Stay here, carry on being friendly with him; I'm going to Portimao to see what we've got on him: we've got to find out more about this guy.
I immediately telephone the team to alert them. The Director of the Department of Criminal Investigation in Faro has to be involved in a meeting the same morning, where we will discuss the case of Robert Murat. End quote
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 08, 2013, 07:50:30 AM
According to his book it was Amaral himself who first instigated enquiries into Murat..
Quote from his book Chapter 7
Instead of taking the exit road for Portimao, I continue my journey on the motorway. I need to reconstruct the individual's path. If he had planned his crime, he probably wouldn't have taken this direction. And if, on the other hand, he hadn't planned it? I need to work it out for myself. In Vilada Luz, I park my car below the apartment blocks. Journalists are on the lookout around the apartment; fortunately, they don't see me. I walk the same route that the stranger must have taken. I arrive in front of a house with a neglected garden. Inside, there are two parked cars, whose registration numbers I note down. I communicate the numbers to the police in Portimao and wait there for the result of the check. After a few minutes, a green vehicle, driven by an individual wearing glasses, stops in front of the entrance to the house. The driver goes in quickly. His face is familiar to me but I don't know who he is. I notice a child's seat inside the car. The man comes back out a little later, supporting an elderly lady whom he accompanies towards the area of the swimming pools and the Tapas restaurant. They cross a park where a few buildings have been erected. Madeleine's parents took this route to take their children to the play centre, near the main reception area of the hotel complex. Since the start of the investigation , a team has been permanently on the premises and an apartment has been placed at their disposal. I am about to make enquiries of the police officer on duty when the individual comes back from his walk and greets him as he passes.
- You know that man?
- Yes, he presented himself to the GNR on Friday morning and offered his services as an interpreter. He is of English origin but speaks good Portuguese. He's called Robert Murat.
As the law demands, all foreign people interviewed by the police must have the benefit of an interpreter. In this investigation, the considerable number of interviews we had to conduct in record time forced us to call on the services of volunteers.
- And this guy, you checked him out? No criminal record or trouble with the law?
- No, no, it's all OK, but I didn't know he lived here. It's true that his house is on the route taken by the abductor.
- Stay here, carry on being friendly with him; I'm going to Portimao to see what we've got on him: we've got to find out more about this guy.
I immediately telephone the team to alert them. The Director of the Department of Criminal Investigation in Faro has to be involved in a meeting the same morning, where we will discuss the case of Robert Murat. End quote
So who in the first place suggested Murat was involved ?
Secondly, this appears to be a routine procedure, so what point are you trying to make exactly ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on September 08, 2013, 08:36:04 AM
So who in the first place suggested Murat was involved ?
Secondly, this appears to be a routine procedure, so what point are you trying to make exactly ?
I thought it was Lori Cambell who started the ball rolling re Murat, but that is not how Amaral depicts it in his book. Here is the next section - following on from the one I posted above. I don't think anyone reading it (along with the first section) would have a clue that it was anyone other than himself who first became' interested' in Murat. The 'English Journalist'' who is presently being harangued and ridiculed on here for apparently having the same suspicions as Amaral is barely given a mention.
Quote
I immediately telephone the team to alert them. The Director of the Department of Criminal Investigation in Faro has to be involved in a meeting the same morning, where we will discuss the case of Robert Murat. We decide to request the latter's help again in order not to lose sight of him. We must act with the utmost speed, because Madeleine could be in one of the houses he has access to. The investigators continue to check the information we have about him. He is English, aged 33 and is separated from his wife. The latter lives in Great Britain with their daughter; the latter is nearly the same age as Madeleine and looks like her. The English journalist to whom he gave this information during an interview was immediately distrusting of him and the reasons that motivated him to help the police. Murat has lived with his mother in Vila da Luz for several years, but he goes to England regularly. Back from his last stay in Exeter on May 1st, he has to return there on the 9th. He is ready to postpone his departure, desirous above all, he states, of helping the police to find Madeleine.
His behaviour starts to seriously intrigue us. He often makes reference to similar cases that happened in the United Kingdom and which he seems to know in detail. He displays suspicious curiosity and seeks to know more. He offers to help us identify possible suspects. He knows the workings of the Ocean Club and the habits of the holiday-makers very well. He even, allegedly, tried secretly to access the investigation files. It is also known that he visits web sites of a pornographic nature.
End quote
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 08, 2013, 08:49:57 AM
I thought it was Lori Cambell who started the ball rolling re Murat, but that is not how Amaral depicts it in his book. Here is the next section - following on from the one I posted above. I don't think anyone reading it (along with the first section) would have a clue that it was anyone other than himself who first became' interested' in Murat. The 'English Journalist'' who is presently being harangued and ridiculed on here for apparently having the same suspicions as Amaral is barely given a mention.
Quote
I immediately telephone the team to alert them. The Director of the Department of Criminal Investigation in Faro has to be involved in a meeting the same morning, where we will discuss the case of Robert Murat. We decide to request the latter's help again in order not to lose sight of him. We must act with the utmost speed, because Madeleine could be in one of the houses he has access to. The investigators continue to check the information we have about him. He is English, aged 33 and is separated from his wife. The latter lives in Great Britain with their daughter; the latter is nearly the same age as Madeleine and looks like her. The English journalist to whom he gave this information during an interview was immediately distrusting of him and the reasons that motivated him to help the police. Murat has lived with his mother in Vila da Luz for several years, but he goes to England regularly. Back from his last stay in Exeter on May 1st, he has to return there on the 9th. He is ready to postpone his departure, desirous above all, he states, of helping the police to find Madeleine.
His behaviour starts to seriously intrigue us. He often makes reference to similar cases that happened in the United Kingdom and which he seems to know in detail. He displays suspicious curiosity and seeks to know more. He offers to help us identify possible suspects. He knows the workings of the Ocean Club and the habits of the holiday-makers very well. He even, allegedly, tried secretly to access the investigation files. It is also known that he visits web sites of a pornographic nature.
End quote
Don't you realize the irony of these sections.
They were looking for an abductor(s).
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on September 08, 2013, 09:17:15 AM
What has that got to do with the distinct impression which Amaral gives in his book that it was he personally who first suspected Murat and decided to make enquiries? If the truth is that it was Lori Campbell and other reporters who started to see 'shades of Ian Huntley' in Murats behaviour and who decided they should alert the Leicester police to their observations which led to Murat being investigated, then why does Amaral apparently seek to hide that fact from his readers in that part of his book. All very odd IMO.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 08, 2013, 09:23:01 AM
What has that got to do with the distinct impression which Amaral gives in his book that it was he personally who first suspected Murat and decided to make enquiries? If the truth is that it was Lori Campbell and other reporters who started to see 'shades of Ian Huntley' in Murats behaviour and who decided they should alert the Leicester police to their observations which led to Murat being investigated, then why does Amaral apparently seek to hide that fact from his readers in that part of his book. All very odd IMO.
So where exactly does it say Amaral suspected Murat of an abduction ?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on September 08, 2013, 12:26:21 PM
You seem to have forgotten that the PJ dismissed Murat as a suspect.
There was no evidence of abduction.
Hence the parents.............................
Meanwhile you have libeled Grime repeatedly, on here and elsewhere.
Can you explain why you have done that ?
You do know records of that have been kept ? 8((()*/
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on September 08, 2013, 11:13:42 PM
...and by the way, whenever there is a criminal charge made by any citizen (national or foreigner) against anyone, it's obligatory for the PJ to follow suit. There is always an investigation, unless the plea is too unreal. Murat had been accused by a UK journalist that had contacted the Brit authorities, and those contacted the portuguese, and soon after a resented ex-girlfriend accused him also. Only later came the Taner acknowledgement and the other Tapas after being put in front of him - 4 Tapas lied deliberately to incriminate an innocent person. That tells a lot about them.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Luz on September 09, 2013, 12:48:19 AM
If the matter wasn't so sad I would say I had a grand laugh at watching some people shooting heir own foot.
The more you want to attack those that have done their job and try to get a pass for those that failed, the more you dig your grave.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on September 09, 2013, 08:44:27 AM
...and by the way, whenever there is a criminal charge made by any citizen (national or foreigner) against anyone, it's obligatory for the PJ to follow suit. There is always an investigation, unless the plea is too unreal. Murat had been accused by a UK journalist that had contacted the Brit authorities, and those contacted the portuguese, and soon after a resented ex-girlfriend accused him also. Only later came the Taner acknowledgement and the other Tapas after being put in front of him - 4 Tapas lied deliberately to incriminate an innocent person. That tells a lot about them.
Why would they lie? The 3 who said they saw Murat on the night of the 3rd didn't know anything about him until they saw him on TV. And then all they did was pass on that particular piece of information - as any normal person would in those circumstances. JT has never identified Murat at any time, as if she had there would be a witness statement to prove it - not just Amaral's word - who wasn't present at the failed 'identity parade'.
Murat wasn't accused of anything by the UK journalist. She along with other reporters thought his 'interest' in the case was OTT and reminded them of the behaviour of Ian Huntley in another UK case of missing children. They decided to pass their concerns on to the UK police. That was the correct thing to do IMO.
Amaral's description in his book of how Murat first came to his attention, is nothing like how you describe it above.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 09, 2013, 10:14:20 AM
Unless anyone thinks the whole story was fabricated for some reason.....then it seems likely it was dropped early on
ETA After reading Luzs post quoting DCI asserting that Mr Amaral made it all up, ie Murat bringing an action aganst Tanner, DCI needs to back it up! And explain how Murats lawyer and Kier Simmonds ITV journalist and others just went along with the alledged fairy story.....!
It appears to be part of the course in this never ending saga.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 09, 2013, 10:22:00 AM
You never fail to amuse FM with your defacto statements based on nothing except your wishful thinking, LoooL
No doubt, no doubt, ? Says who? You? or a dog handler? too funny
Anyway the thread is about the surveillance van exercise....and whether Tanner fingered Murat as bundleman, which by all accounts she did at the time
Tanner's partner was one of the three tapas who made statements saying that Murat was lingering around the apartment shortly after Madeleine was reported missing. Does anyone believe for a minute that he wouldn't have communicated this fact to Tanner? She then obviously put two and two together and came up with 22 instead of 4.
Having initially suggested it was him and after having then been taken out by the cops to do a bit of reconnoitring she seems to have back tracked very quickly.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 09, 2013, 10:35:30 AM
Murat had been accused by a UK journalist that had contacted the Brit authorities, and those contacted the portuguese, and soon after a resented ex-girlfriend accused him also. Only later came the Taner acknowledgement and the other Tapas after being put in front of him - 4 Tapas lied deliberately to incriminate an innocent person. That tells a lot about them.
Or could it be a simple case of mistaken identity followed by the lemming syndrome?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 09, 2013, 11:01:16 AM
Why would they lie? The 3 who said they saw Murat on the night of the 3rd didn't know anything about him until they saw him on TV. And then all they did was pass on that particular piece of information - as any normal person would in those circumstances. JT has never identified Murat at any time, as if she had there would be a witness statement to prove it - not just Amaral's word - who wasn't present at the failed 'identity parade'.
Murat wasn't accused of anything by the UK journalist. She along with other reporters thought his 'interest' in the case was OTT and reminded them of the behaviour of Ian Huntley in another UK case of missing children. They decided to pass their concerns on to the UK police. That was the correct thing to do IMO.
Amaral's description in his book of how Murat first came to his attention, is nothing like how you describe it above.
You are 100% wrong Benice. Campbell wrote to the police saying she thought Murat was involved. You can't be clearer than that!!
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Lyall on September 09, 2013, 11:24:22 AM
Why would they lie? The 3 who said they saw Murat on the night of the 3rd didn't know anything about him until they saw him on TV. And then all they did was pass on that particular piece of information - as any normal person would in those circumstances. JT has never identified Murat at any time, as if she had there would be a witness statement to prove it - not just Amaral's word - who wasn't present at the failed 'identity parade'.
Murat wasn't accused of anything by the UK journalist. She along with other reporters thought his 'interest' in the case was OTT and reminded them of the behaviour of Ian Huntley in another UK case of missing children. They decided to pass their concerns on to the UK police. That was the correct thing to do IMO.
Amaral's description in his book of how Murat first came to his attention, is nothing like how you describe it above.
Which other reporters?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: ferryman on September 09, 2013, 11:35:25 AM
Murat wasn't accused of anything by the UK journalist. She along with other reporters thought his 'interest' in the case was OTT and reminded them of the behaviour of Ian Huntley in another UK case of missing children. They decided to pass their concerns on to the UK police. That was the correct thing to do IMO.
I seldom disagree with Benice. But I do on that point.
Campbell accused Murat, and not just to police.
She plastered what she believed all over the pages of her paper and that was unforgivable.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on September 09, 2013, 11:42:18 AM
Murat wasn't accused of anything by the UK journalist. She along with other reporters thought his 'interest' in the case was OTT and reminded them of the behaviour of Ian Huntley in another UK case of missing children. They decided to pass their concerns on to the UK police. That was the correct thing to do IMO.
I seldom disagree with Benice. But I do on that point.
Campbell accused Murat, and not just to police.
She plastered what she believed all over the pages of her paper and that was unforgivable.
Thanks for being fair, Ferryman !
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Lyall on September 09, 2013, 11:51:01 AM
And they made her Journalist of the Year ?8)@)-)
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Lyall on September 09, 2013, 11:58:15 AM
That's like Obama being given the Nobel Peace Prize 8-)(--)
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2013, 12:01:55 PM
What's the timeline of Lori's involvement? I'm not sure how much she may - or may not - have contributed to the overall Murat witchhunt.
She says in the video that she had her suspicions from day 1 which is the exact same as what Yvonne Martin said about her involvement. In fact, Yvonne Martin made it her business to be there very early on and spoke with the McCanns and David Payne.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on September 09, 2013, 03:02:56 PM
On day 1. She went to the resort almost immediately and spoke with the McCanns and David Payne.
Thanks. The clip you posted is about her concerns about RM. Who is interviewing her? For the record: I have no problem at all with her reporting her concerns to the police... It's blabbing about it that I have a problem with.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 09, 2013, 04:16:27 PM
She should stick to journalism and leave the detective work to the professionals.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Redblossom on September 09, 2013, 04:44:56 PM
Why would they lie? The 3 who said they saw Murat on the night of the 3rd didn't know anything about him until they saw him on TV.
Yes they did, well, according to THEM, they knew his name, what he looked like, they said he introduced himself by name to them that night, Russell Obrien put his name and number in his mobile phone, (though with him in one minute he is sure it was that night in the next he wasnt sure), two of them were suspicious of him for beng too interested, they related this in their may 07 and or july 07 and rogatory interviews, one said she wished she had relayed her suspicions to police beforehand! The other said he unnerved her with his dodgy eye and all! And that they apparently never bumped into him again until he appeared on TV around May 14 is utter codswallop as he was heavily involved in both interpreting for the police! for diane webster iirc,and in the search and other activities for days after, including speaking with the group mornng of 4th may, they would have spotted him, unless of course they were sat by the pool most of the time!
Seems to me any scapegoat/available patsy for them and Ms Lori was good enough.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Redblossom on September 09, 2013, 04:49:17 PM
Thanks. The clip you posted is about her concerns about RM. Who is interviewing her? For the record: I have no problem at all with her reporting her concerns to the police... It's blabbing about it that I have a problem with.
She certainly did that @)(++(* These clips are only samples, I can still well remember she was going on and on (for hours it seemed).
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Redblossom on September 09, 2013, 05:08:36 PM
Yes they did, well, according to THEM, they knew his name, what he looked like, they said he introduced himself by name to them that night, Russell Obrien put his name and number in his mobile phone, (though with him in one minute he is sure it was that night in the next he wasnt sure), two of them were suspicious of him for beng too interested, they related this in their may 07 and or july 07 and rogatory interviews, one said she wished she had relayed her suspicions to police beforehand! The other said he unnerved her with his dodgy eye and all! And that they apparently never bumped into him again until he appeared on TV around May 14 is utter codswallop as he was heavily involved in both interpreting for the police! for diane webster iirc,and in the search and other activities for days after, including speaking with the group mornng of 4th may, they would have spotted him, unless of course they were sat by the pool most of the time!
Seems to me any scapegoat/available patsy for them and Ms Lori was good enough.
Maybe I didn't put it very well, but what I'm saying Red is that they had no idea he was being investigated until they saw him on TV. And if they knew he was an interpretor surely that would give them even less reason to think he was involved before saw him on the telly. The accusation is that they lied when they said they saw him on the 3rd. Personally I don't think they did - especially as they were quite prepared to meet him at the 'confrontation' meeting and tell him the same to his face. Can you tell me who the two people are who said they were suspicious of him before he was made an Arguido. Surely if that was the case they would have mentioned their doubts about him to the UK FLO's.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: faithlilly on September 09, 2013, 06:20:24 PM
Maybe I didn't put it very well, but what I'm saying Red is that they had no idea he was being investigated until they saw him on TV. And if they knew he was an interpretor surely that would give them even less reason to think he was involved before saw him on the telly. The accusation is that they lied when they said they saw him on the 3rd. Personally I don't think they did - especially as they were quite prepared to meet him at the 'confrontation' meeting and tell him the same to his face. Can you tell me who the two people are who said they were suspicious of him before he was made an Arguido. Surely if that was the case they would have mentioned their doubts about him to the UK FLO's.
And the reason you think Murat and his mother are lying is............?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Redblossom on September 09, 2013, 06:32:10 PM
Maybe I didn't put it very well, but what I'm saying Red is that they had no idea he was being investigated until they saw him on TV. And if they knew he was an interpretor surely that would give them even less reason to think he was involved before saw him on the telly. The accusation is that they lied when they said they saw him on the 3rd. Personally I don't think they did - especially as they were quite prepared to meet him at the 'confrontation' meeting and tell him the same to his face. Can you tell me who the two people are who said they were suspicious of him before he was made an Arguido. Surely if that was the case they would have mentioned their doubts about him to the UK FLO's.
You need to read Rachel Oldfield and Fiona Paynes statements mid May. Your answers are in there. but specifically it was Rachel who regretted not going forward with suspicions at the time, ie before he appeared on tv
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: AnneGuedes on September 09, 2013, 08:07:19 PM
No qualms when you're 3 ! What was at stake was only that he lied about not being there. If he had stolen Madeleine and if she was his captive, what was he doing in the street ? What's amazing is that the same people who were shocked by suspicions of lying didn't hesitate to pin point a liar.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 09, 2013, 10:34:10 PM
I find it remarkable the number of people who have given statements, telephoned the police or wrote letters to them in order to implicate the McCanns or Mr Murat.
We have three of the tapas 7 claiming that they saw Robert Murat lurking near apartment 5a shortly after Madeleine disappeared. Another one even initially thought that he was Bundleman but later thought better of it.
Then we have reporter Lori Campbell who couldn't get Murat to disclose information to her including his address and telephone number so she immediately assumes he is hiding something and associates him with Ian Huntley. What the hell?? Did the silly moo not realise that Mr Murat was helping police, was sworn to secrecy and was not in a position to divulge anything??
Then we have Yvonne Martin who made it her business to confront the McCanns on the very morning after Madeleine went missing. She apparently spoke with the McCanns and Dr David Payne just outside the apartment. She says she was immediately suspicious of the parents. Could this be because they weren't in the mood to discuss their missing child or their private business with a stranger?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 09, 2013, 11:32:28 PM
Yes, they must have come forward of their own volition as well in order to make those damming allegations about Dr Payne's conduct whilst in the company of Gerry McCann. This was all to do with Madeleine of course so what do you think they were suggesting??
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on September 10, 2013, 01:07:57 AM
You need to read Rachel Oldfield and Fiona Paynes statements mid May. Your answers are in there. but specifically it was Rachel who regretted not going forward with suspicions at the time, ie before he appeared on tv
I find it remarkable the number of people who have given statements, telephoned the police or wrote letters to them in order to implicate the McCanns or Mr Murat.
We have three of the tapas 7 claiming that they saw Robert Murat lurking near apartment 5a shortly after Madeleine disappeared. Another one even initially thought that he was Bundleman but later thought better of it.
Then we have reporter Lori Campbell who couldn't get Murat to disclose information to her including his address and telephone number so she immediately assumes he is hiding something and associates him with Ian Huntley. What the hell?? Did the silly moo not realise that Mr Murat was helping police, was sworn to secrecy and was not in a position to divulge anything??
Then we have Yvonne Martin who made it her business to confront the McCanns on the very morning after Madeleine went missing. She apparently spoke with the McCanns and Dr David Payne just outside the apartment. She says she was immediately suspicious of the parents. Could this be because they weren't in the mood to discuss their missing child or their private business with a stranger?
I think you've hit the nail on the head there Angelo. It seems to me that they first thought YM was attached to the investigation - she did arrive at the same time as a police car.
Having noticed how distressed Kate was - so much so that she asked whether a doctor had been called, she then proceeded to bombard her with insensitive questions! Who on earth did she think she was? I think it was when they realised she was just a stranger off the street that she was asked to leave by DP.
IMO she went away very peeved at DP for being asked to leave and personally I think her anonymous letter smacked of a poisoned pen letter.
All she has actually said about DP is that she thought she recognised him from somewhere. And to date it would appear that she still hasn't remembered from where.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involve
Post by: Angelo222 on September 30, 2013, 01:39:26 PM
To get back to the opening post it must be pointed out that the status of 'arguido' is unique to Portuguese law. Just a few days ago the judge at the libel trial in Lisbon went out of her way to make this very point when a witness referred to the McCanns as official suspects following a reference to the term.
The arguido has been explained elsewhere thus I will not labour the point save to say that such a status offers protection to any witness so designated. The witness is not obliged to answer any questions put by police officers and is entitled to have a lawyer present when questioned.
Although the Portuguese deny that the arguido is a suspect there can be no denying that for any foreigner so designated it most certainly feels that way. For their part the McCanns certainly felt as if they were suspects or suspected of something. Why else would the Portuguese detectives be questioning them in such terms?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 05, 2013, 04:29:23 PM
It goes without saying that the man the Smith family saw carrying a child near the beach was not Gerry McCann. He may very well have resembled him but that is where it ends.
Let's take a step back to the evidence again. The McCanns claimed that Madeleine was abducted, taken by some stranger. They initially claimed that the shutter on the children's bedroom window had been forced, that the window had been opened, that some person had climbed in that window, lifted Madeleine and carried her out the front door.
Forensics showed this to be untrue. The shutter was not forced, nobody climbed in the children's bedroom window and the only prints found thereon were that of Kate McCann and a policeman. They didn't even find Gerry McCanns prints on the shutter or the window even though he claimed to have inspected them. This could only mean one thing and that was that the alleged abductor walked in and out through the front door. Amaral was unsure at this juncture as to what this all meant.
Then there was the conflicting statements, the flippant attitude towards any reported sightings, the refusal to answer questions, the cadaver dog alerts and the inconclusive forensic results and all the time this backstabbing of the investigation team and sniping by the Press which were being feed like piranhas by members of the Mccann family who in turn were being fed directly by Kate and Gerry! no wonder the PJ and Amaral were suspicious.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benita on October 05, 2013, 04:44:58 PM
when are you lot gong to "get it" madeleine's parents "are not" suspects and are not being investigated in the disappearance of their daughter madeleine.
"Neither her parents or any members of the group that were with her are persons of interest or suspects."-DCI REDWOOD
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involve
Post by: Carana on October 05, 2013, 04:55:14 PM
To get back to the opening post it must be pointed out that the status of 'arguido' is unique to Portuguese law. Just a few days ago the judge at the libel trial in Lisbon went out of her way to make this very point when a witness referred to the McCanns as official suspects following a reference to the term.
The arguido has been explained elsewhere thus I will not labour the point save to say that such a status offers protection to any witness so designated. The witness is not obliged to answer any questions put by police officers and is entitled to have a lawyer present when questioned.
Although the Portuguese deny that the arguido is a suspect there can be no denying that for any foreigner so designated it most certainly feels that way. For their part the McCanns certainly felt as if they were suspects or suspected of something. Why else would the Portuguese detectives be questioning them in such terms?
There seems to be a negative connotation associated with the status. Ask Murat.
Arresting someone to ask probing questions seems to be general practice. Ask the landlord in the Jo Yeates case.
Lots of people are surely taken in for in-depth questioning in any major investigation all over the world.
My objection is the media attention and the assumption that those people are portrayed as guilty.
Once that negative portrayal is imprinted into the minds of the general public, later reports of "released without charge" don't seem to be registered in the public consciousness as much as the initial news.
If you were the person concerned, would you find that acceptable?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involve
Post by: Cariad on October 05, 2013, 05:14:33 PM
There seems to be a negative connotation associated with the status. Ask Murat.
Arresting someone to ask probing questions seems to be general practice. Ask the landlord in the Jo Yeates case.
Lots of people are surely taken in for in-depth questioning in any major investigation all over the world.
My objection is the media attention and the assumption that those people are portrayed as guilty.
Once that negative portrayal is imprinted into the minds of the general public, later reports of "released without charge" don't seem to be registered in the public consciousness as much as the initial news.
If you were the person concerned, would you find that acceptable?
I remember saying to my husband that the police must have some sort of concrete evidence against Chris Jefferies, or else they wouldn't have released his name.
What he went through was horrific, however, it served to highlight how naive my original opinion was. I won't assume guilt from arrest ever again!
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: DCI on October 05, 2013, 05:17:55 PM
The press which were being feed like piranhas by members of the PJ, GNR, and Portuguese journalists. Remember what Paulo Reis said, in his email to Stevo? Even Amaral left files on his desk for a journo to read and get information of personal details of witness's.
Who sold Kate's diary's to CdM to print bits of, 2 days after Amarals book was released. Which Portuguese woman journalist sold said diary's to the NOTW, for 18,000 Euro
It did not appear to be the original diary, but a copy that had been translated from English into Portuguese.
The Sun newspaper on July 28, 2008, which said that extracts of Kate McCann’s diary had emerged in Portugal.
A diary that the AG said should not be used!
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 05, 2013, 05:21:07 PM
when are you lot gong to "get it" madeleine's parents "are not" suspects and are not being investigated in the disappearance of their daughter madeleine.
"Neither her parents or any members of the group that were with her are persons of interest or suspects."-DCI REDWOOD
Do you really think i'm going to take the word of the idiot who tried to stitch up Barry George?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involve
Post by: Angelo222 on October 05, 2013, 05:23:14 PM
I remember saying to my husband that the police must have some sort of concrete evidence against Chris Jefferies, or else they wouldn't have released his name.
What he went through was horrific, however, it served to highlight how naive my original opinion was. I won't assume guilt from arrest ever again!
It was that bunch of morons at Sky News who started it all off. Mark Stone was the reporter who pursued him if I remember correctly. >@@(*&)
Thank you for the link. Chris Jefferies had the misfortune of looking a little "odd", but the good luck to be incredibly intelligent and articulate. He was able to fight to clear his name in a way that Barry George for example couldn't really.
In a perfect world it would never have happened, however, it does serve as an example that could make people stop and think before jumping to conclusions again. It has for me anyway.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Benice on October 05, 2013, 05:42:11 PM
The press which were being feed like piranhas by members of the PJ, GNR, and Portuguese journalists. Remember what Paulo Reis said, in his email to Stevo? Even Amaral left files on his desk for a journo to read and get information of personal details of witness's.
Who sold Kate's diary's to CdM to print bits of, 2 days after Amarals book was released. Which Portuguese woman journalist sold said diary's to the NOTW, for 18,000 EuroIt did not appear to be the original diary, but a copy that had been translated from English into Portuguese.
The Sun newspaper on July 28, 2008, which said that extracts of Kate McCann’s diary had emerged in Portugal.
A diary that the AG said should not be used!
I find it shocking that no investigation appears to have been carried out re Kates diary, which had been 'taken into custody' from the McCanns apartment. by the PJ - and so was in their sole possession. And which, after all copies of it were ordered by the GA to be destroyed, was then illegally distributed for public consumption. One can only assume a PJ Officer was involved. Surely ignoring a direct order from the GA should have automatically resulted in an enquiry.
IIRC correctly Lord Leveson was just as shocked and intimated that he would be making further enquiries about that. Whether he was able to find anything out - I do not know as I've never seen any further reference to it.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 05, 2013, 05:47:53 PM
I find it shocking that no investigation appears to have been carried out re Kates diary, which had been 'taken into custody' from the McCanns apartment. by the PJ - and so was in their sole possession. And which, after all copies of it were ordered by the GA to be destroyed, was then illegally distributed for public consumption. One can only assume a PJ Officer was involved. Surely ignoring a direct order from the GA should have automatically resulted in an enquiry.
IIRC correctly Lord Leveson was just as shocked and intimated that he would be making further enquiries about that. Whether he was able to find anything out - I do not know as I've never seen any further reference to it.
I totally agree Benice, there is no justification whatsoever for such conduct.
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: Carana on October 05, 2013, 06:01:17 PM
And i think that an asusmption that Gerry was lying would be a valid one, how can you get so spectacularly wrong the door you went in through only 14 hours after the event?
I believe (and i also agree) that Amaral and his team thought they were trying to create entry points to support the ability of an abductor to get in and the inital story for the group was that the entry point was through the patio door and then out through the window for said abductor.
When that didn't fly because of the Wilkins meeting at the bottom of the steps to the patio the 10th May statement then said he didn't go through the front door and it wasn't locked.
To any investigator it is not unreasonable to assume that such fundamental changes and alterations to statements concerning entry and exit points coupled with locked and unlocked would raise suspicion.
Why didn't the police officer taking the statement on 4 May not question that apparent contradiction at the time to clarify?
Title: Re: Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?
Post by: jassi on October 05, 2013, 06:07:10 PM