The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?

[faithlilly]

There is never freedom to tell lies though

That is true. There is, however, freedom to believe them unquestionably, a freedom I have seen passionately embraced by you supporters.

[sadie]

In Spain and in summer, because it's very hot, people, not only children, had traditionally a siesta. With air conditioning this has changed.

With a siesta at mid day, methinks they would go to bed at a correspondingly later time?

[sadie]

A happy picture.  All clean and nicely dressed.  Toys in the cot

Hope that this photograph will not be removed

[John]

I have altered the header and added several details explaining how it came about that the shopkeeper who served Joana was the one who ended up telephoning the police.

[sadie]

Where did you get that report from John?  Whose report was it?

Would like to see the full report pls.

[sadie]

Another happy photo of a bonny child, Joana Cipriano, dressed in a cute and newish looking jump suit.  Spotlessly clean child and spotlessly clean house.

Not expensive furniture ... but sound stuff and well looked after and cared for

Well looked after and cared for, like Joana appears to have been.




And like the neighbours said in the parallel thread, never any signs of maltreatment.

Btw,
Why have we got a parallel thread John?

Haven't we had enough wumming already?


I hope this photograph nwill not be wiped and that the text will not be modified

[AnneGuedes]

It was a special festival that day.  I think Anne told us about it.  No doubt her mother would think that she had joined in the festivities, or was visiting a friend, or relative.

What ? I certainly didn't say such a thing !
I said yesderday, 13 of June, was St Anthony's day and a holiday because St Anthony de Padua was born in Lisbon.

[icabodcrane]

Joana was reported missing in less than 5 hours after she set off to the shops

It was a special festival that day.  I think Anne told us about it.  No doubt her mother would think that she had joined in the festivities, or was visiting a friend, or relative.

Finally when she got really anxious she would have to visit all the places Joana might be.  It was fiesta so it is quite possible that Leonor with kiddies, or Leandro, did not return home until quite late themselves.  Men like to drink at festivals.

Once home and the little ones were in bed, can you tell me how a woman with several kiddies can leave them to go searching?



There could be all sorts of reasons why she was later than most of us would be in reporting the loss of her daughter.  Joanas grandma was in the next village IIRC.  She could have been there ... or dozens of other places, especially with fiesta.

All as I suspect you must know.

oh sadie 

Why are you pretending that there is nothing questionable about an eight year old little girl going to the shops at 8pm  and not being  reported as missing until quarter to one in the morning  ? 

Joining in the festivities ?   ...  an eight year old ?   ...  until one o'clock in the morning ! 

Please stop ....  it's awful to see you do this 

[Benice]

Joana was reported missing in less than 5 hours after she set off to the shops

It was a special festival that day.  I think Anne told us about it.  No doubt her mother would think that she had joined in the festivities, or was visiting a friend, or relative.

Finally when she got really anxious she would have to visit all the places Joana might be.  It was fiesta so it is quite possible that Leonor with kiddies, or Leandro, did not return home until quite late themselves.  Men like to drink at festivals.

Once home and the little ones were in bed, can you tell me how a woman with several kiddies can leave them to go searching?



There could be all sorts of reasons why she was later than most of us would be in reporting the loss of her daughter.  Joanas grandma was in the next village IIRC.  She could have been there ... or dozens of other places, especially with fiesta.

All as I suspect you must know.

This is how I am thinking Sadie.   From the bits I have read so far Joana went out at around 8.00pm.  The round trip to the shop was 840 metres, which is quite a long way, and taking into account that she spent time in the shop it could have been around 9.00 before her mother became anxious.   As you say there are various possible reasons as to why she hadn't returned and there came a point where her brother, husband and his friend were out searching. She would wait to see whether they found her before contacting the police. 
 
 The call was made to the GNR at 0.45a.m, but in the meantime Leonor met up and spoke with GNR officers.    I could be completely wrong of course, but reading between the lines I would say that they told her to go home and come to the police station the next morning if Joana had not turned up, which apparently is what Leonor did.   

[AnneGuedes]

reading between the lines I would say that they told her to go home and come to the police station the next morning if Joana had not turned up, which apparently is what Leonor did.

What would you say if you were reading the lines instead ?

[sadie]

I am happy with your thoughts, Benice

sadie

Once home and the little ones were in bed, can you tell me how a woman with several kiddies can leave them to go searching?

@Icabod

Is it Ok Icabod, for a woman to completely leave her children and go 800+yards away ?

I thought that you were one of the strongest opponents of the Mccanns when they had the patio doors to the apartment in view and were within hailing distance, at only 50 metres away




Why was it Ok for Leonor to go 800 metres away .. yet not for the Mccanns to be only 50 metres away in what was effectively their back garden

Double standards seems

[John]

Where did you get that report from John?  Whose report was it?

Would like to see the full report pls.

Acórdão do Supremo Tribunal de Justiça

Facts considered to be proved:

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano

[Benice]

What would you say if you were reading the lines instead ?

I'm assuming that as the GNR (as far as I know) did not go to Leonor's house when she spoke to them or take any action, then they must have told her to come back the next day if Joana had not been found.

As I have said, I'm not that 'au fait' about this case, apart from the torture aspect, but having skipped through the links Redblossom gave us the other day, this is what I think at the moment.    That doesn't mean I won't change my mind when I've had a chance to spend more time reading about the case.

[icabodcrane]

The known facts are as follows.

Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro (8) was sent to buy some groceries from a village store near her home in Figueira, at around 8pm on September 12, 2004.  She bought a tin of tuna and some milk from the Ofelia store, and was last seen by a neighbour walking back near the village church, some 200 yards from her home.  At around 9.30 p.m. João Cipriano left the house, headed towards the store where he met Leandro Silva and MM, who were already there, and whom he told that Joana had not returned home.  Leandro Silva and MM returned to the Cipriano home and when it was confirmed to them that Joana was in fact missing they went out to look for her.

Between 10.30 and 11.00pm the child's mother, Leonor Cipriano, joined her partner Leandro Silva and MM, to whom she reiterated that Joana was missing, and only at that point in time did she go to store and asked the owner (NN) if Joana had been there caliming that she had disappeared.

Leonor Cipriano didn't inform the police authorities about the missing child despite there being GNR officers on duty in Figueira as a popular fair called "Mussels Party" was taking place at the time.  It was the shop owner (NN) who made the call at around 12.44am on the 13 September, when she heard that Leonor hadn't yet done so.  It was fas a result of this telephone call that Leonor ended up talking with GNR officers near the church in Figueira.  She told the officers that she hadn't telephoned them because she had no credit on her mobile phone.

Later at around 2.00am, Leonor was seen to buy cakes in a pastry shop in the village.

The next morning Leonor went to the GNR Station, in Portimão, accompanied by partner João Cipriano, where they filed a complaint over the disappearance of Joana.



Joana never returned and, like the McCanns, her mother Leonor mounted a campaign to find her.  Like them, she and her brother Joao became suspects.

Was the disappearance of two children unknown to each other, within a period of four years in a seven-mile radius, simply a huge coincidence?

Thanks John

I've been searching the net looking for  'facts'  on this case  (  not very successfully  )  and in one post you have clarified more than  endless threads here have done   ...  how did you manage to uncover that information  ? 

Well done

[John]

Just to be clear this thread is intended to be about Joana and not Leonor so lets keep to the facts which we know and leave the details of the prosecution's case to the other thread.