Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy

[pathfinder73]

Nikki Burgess murder case

Later, cadaver dogs alerted detectives to that bathroom and the master bedroom. What the dogs alerted to was the presence of human decomposition.

“The first area they alerted to was in the master bedroom where the bundle of blankets was,” said Atkin. “The second area they alerted to was in the bathroom, specifically the bathtub.”

Blood-stained bedding, brass knuckles and empty bottles of cleaner were among the items recovered during a search the Hermitage home.

Cannon is charged with first-degree murder in the case. Burgess’ body has yet to be found.

http://wkrn.com/2015/11/24/man-charged-in-nikki-burgess-case-due-in-court/

He said Cannon told him he killed Burgess in her bedroom.

“He followed her to the bedroom, took out a pair of brass knuckles. The brass knuckles he said were wrapped in a piece of cloth or towel of some sort and he struck her in the back of the head the brass knuckle repeatedly until she fell on the ground in the bedroom,” Breuington testified.

He continued, “He took a cord that he had ripped off an appliance of some sort at the house – he didn’t say what appliance – he put it around her neck and strangled her to death.”

When asked if Cannon ever told him what happened to Burgess’ body, he said, “Took it to a farm, put it in a machine that ground up her body.”

http://wkrn.com/2017/05/17/ex-girlfriend-former-cellmate-reveal-new-details-in-nikki-burgess-murder/

[Robittybob1]

Nikki Burgess murder case

Later, cadaver dogs alerted detectives to that bathroom and the master bedroom. What the dogs alerted to was the presence of human decomposition.

“The first area they alerted to was in the master bedroom where the bundle of blankets was,” said Atkin. “The second area they alerted to was in the bathroom, specifically the bathtub.”

Blood-stained bedding, brass knuckles and empty bottles of cleaner were among the items recovered during a search the Hermitage home.

Cannon is charged with first-degree murder in the case. Burgess’ body has yet to be found.

http://wkrn.com/2015/11/24/man-charged-in-nikki-burgess-case-due-in-court/

He said Cannon told him he killed Burgess in her bedroom.

“He followed her to the bedroom, took out a pair of brass knuckles. The brass knuckles he said were wrapped in a piece of cloth or towel of some sort and he struck her in the back of the head the brass knuckle repeatedly until she fell on the ground in the bedroom,” Breuington testified.

He continued, “He took a cord that he had ripped off an appliance of some sort at the house – he didn’t say what appliance – he put it around her neck and strangled her to death.”

When asked if Cannon ever told him what happened to Burgess’ body, he said, “Took it to a farm, put it in a machine that ground up her body.”

http://wkrn.com/2017/05/17/ex-girlfriend-former-cellmate-reveal-new-details-in-nikki-burgess-murder/

And what sort of machine was that?  I want one.

[pathfinder73]

Cadaver Dog Buster and the Black Dahlia Murder: The Scent of Death

[sadie]

Cadaver Dog Buster and the Black Dahlia Murder: The Scent of Death

The difference between the cadavar dogs, which you mention Pathfinder, and Eddie is that they only alert to Cadavar odour.  Whilst Eddie alerts to Cadavar odour and dessicated blood left by a living person. 

He was double trained to alert to both the scent of death and the sent of dessicated blood from a living person .. and will alert to both.  Most cadavar dogs will only alert to cadavar odour.


So if Eddie alerts, which is more likely?
That he is alerting to
1)  The dried blood from a living person?
or,
2)  the scent of a dead body?


As dessicated blood (from a living person) can come from such minor accidents as a cut finger.a picked spot, a grazed knee, menstrual blood, a nose bleed, then it would be surprising if Eddie had not alerted in 5A.  Madeleine arrived with a grazed knee


The incidence of the odour of a cadavar would be massively lower than the incidence of dried living blood.  Almost certainly Eddie alerted to dried living blood only.


Pathfinder, you cannot compare the alerts that Eddie made to those of a dog trained only on cadavar odour, unless you mention that Eddie also alerts to dried living blood.  It is not honest to do so, because of this.  IMO

[slartibartfast]

The difference between the cadavar dogs, which you mention Pathfinder, and Eddie is that they only alert to Cadavar odour.  Whilst Eddie alerts to Cadavar odour and dessicated blood left by a living person. 

He was double trained to alert to both the scent of death and the sent of dessicated blood from a living person .. and will alert to both.  Most cadavar dogs will only alert to cadavar odour.


So if Eddie alerts, which is more likely?
That he is alerting to
1)  The dried blood from a living person?
or,
2)  the scent of a dead body?


As dessicated blood (from a living person) can come from such minor accidents as a cut finger.a picked spot, a grazed knee, menstrual blood, a nose bleed, then it would be surprising if Eddie had not alerted in 5A.  Madeleine arrived with a grazed knee


The incidence of the odour of a cadavar would be massively lower than the incidence of dried living blood.  Almost certainly Eddie alerted to dried living blood only.


Pathfinder, you cannot compare the alerts that Eddie made to those of a dog trained only on cadavar odour, unless you mention that Eddie also alerts to dried living blood.  It is not honest to do so, because of this.  IMO

Which is why, as we all know, Keela was used to eliminate potential blood odour.

[sadie]

Which is why, as we all know, Keela was used to eliminate potential blood odour.

Supposedly but we have no evidence that she did check several of the spots, most especially in the hire car and the whole of the clothing set out in the gym.  In 5A she affirmed that the spots on the wall were the dessicated blood of a living person and not cadavar odour.

[Mr Gray]

Which is why, as we all know, Keela was used to eliminate potential blood odour.

If you think you can draw any inference from the cadaver alert then based on what Mark Harrison said you are totally misguided

[pathfinder73]

The difference between the cadavar dogs, which you mention Pathfinder, and Eddie is that they only alert to Cadavar odour.  Whilst Eddie alerts to Cadavar odour and dessicated blood left by a living person. 

He was double trained to alert to both the scent of death and the sent of dessicated blood from a living person .. and will alert to both.  Most cadavar dogs will only alert to cadavar odour.


So if Eddie alerts, which is more likely?
That he is alerting to
1)  The dried blood from a living person?
or,
2)  the scent of a dead body?


As dessicated blood (from a living person) can come from such minor accidents as a cut finger.a picked spot, a grazed knee, menstrual blood, a nose bleed, then it would be surprising if Eddie had not alerted in 5A.  Madeleine arrived with a grazed knee


The incidence of the odour of a cadavar would be massively lower than the incidence of dried living blood.  Almost certainly Eddie alerted to dried living blood only.


Pathfinder, you cannot compare the alerts that Eddie made to those of a dog trained only on cadavar odour, unless you mention that Eddie also alerts to dried living blood.  It is not honest to do so, because of this.  IMO

All cadaver dogs alert to blood including Buster. Don't be ignorant Sadie.

“Buster” World Famous Police Cadaver Dog Dies from Sudden Heart Attack

Buster, who was 12-years old (85 in human years)  was a court-certified HRDC expert witness.  His official title, being a Human Remains Detection Canine, more commonly known in police  jargon as, a “Cadaver Dog.” Buster, known as, “The Wonder Dog” did not have just your average nose for his work, but was truly one of the Top Dog’s in his field.

A world traveler Buster’s search assignments included detecting human remains and locating lost gravesites of  WWII MIA’s in Europe (Normandy, France,) as well as Belgium (Battle of the Bulge 1944). Buster has made numerous trips to the Pacific to the small atoll of Tarawa, in the Gilbert Islands, where he has been credited with finding dozens of MIA remains.

Buster also conducted follow-up investigative searches in the Charles Manson Case at Barker Ranch and in my own Black Dahlia investigation in 2012 and 2013. His most recent work involved locating and “alerting” to human remains in a Northern California unsolved murder investigation.


Buster at Sowden/Hodel House 2012 with favorite blue bone toy

http://stevehodel.com/2016/02/buster-world-famous-police-cadaver-dog-dies-from-sudden-heart-attack-praised-for-locating-wwii-mia-gravesites-and-helping-crack-black-dahlia-murder/

[ferryman]

All cadaver dogs alert to blood including Buster. Don't be ignorant Sadie.

“Buster” World Famous Police Cadaver Dog Dies from Sudden Heart Attack

Buster, who was 12-years old (85 in human years)  was a court-certified HRDC expert witness.  His official title, being a Human Remains Detection Canine, more commonly known in police  jargon as, a “Cadaver Dog.” Buster, known as, “The Wonder Dog” did not have just your average nose for his work, but was truly one of the Top Dog’s in his field.

A world traveler Buster’s search assignments included detecting human remains and locating lost gravesites of  WWII MIA’s in Europe (Normandy, France,) as well as Belgium (Battle of the Bulge 1944). Buster has made numerous trips to the Pacific to the small atoll of Tarawa, in the Gilbert Islands, where he has been credited with finding dozens of MIA remains.

Buster also conducted follow-up investigative searches in the Charles Manson Case at Barker Ranch and in my own Black Dahlia investigation in 2012 and 2013. His most recent work involved locating and “alerting” to human remains in a Northern California unsolved murder investigation.


Buster at Sowden/Hodel House 2012 with favorite blue bone toy

http://stevehodel.com/2016/02/buster-world-famous-police-cadaver-dog-dies-from-sudden-heart-attack-praised-for-locating-wwii-mia-gravesites-and-helping-crack-black-dahlia-murder/

The ignorance is all yours, Pathfinder.

No clue about Buster, but a cadaver dog will react to blood, as a discrete scent, if introduced to blood as a discrete scent and rewarded for doing so.

If you skip that step the dog won't react to blood as a discrete scent.

[pathfinder73]

"The dog can detect things you can't see, even if it's a crime scene where someone had cleaned up blood. If there's a drop of blood that's been wiped up and you can't see it, the dog will find that. Then you bring in your forensic staff and let them concentrate on that spot so they can quickly determine if there's blood evidence in the house."

Paul Dotsie - Buster's handler

K9 CRIME-FIGHTER: BUSTER THE 3-LEGGED DOG FINDS BURIED BODIES
https://crimewatchdaily.com/videos/0-dmok8ljg/

[ferryman]

"The dog can detect things you can't see, even if it's a crime scene where someone had cleaned up blood. If there's a drop of blood that's been wiped up and you can't see it, the dog will find that. Then you bring in your forensic staff and let them concentrate on that spot so they can quickly determine if there's blood evidence in the house."

Paul Dotsie - Buster's handler

K9 CRIME-FIGHTER: BUSTER THE 3-LEGGED DOG FINDS BURIED BODIES
https://crimewatchdaily.com/videos/0-dmok8ljg/

Start from the premise that all dogs detect all scents, all the time.

What a dog reacts to is determined by training.

All dogs detect the scent of drugs.

But only dogs trained to react to the scent of drugs will do so.

All dogs detect the scent of cancer-cells in humans.

But only dogs trained to react to the scent of cancer-cells in humans will do so.

All dogs detect the scent of money.  But only dogs trained to react to that scent will do so.

And so on.

Eddie would react to the scent of blood, because he was introduced to blood as a discrete scent and rewarded for doing so.

When Keela, the younger of the two dogs Eddie-and-Keela, came along, she was trained to react, only, to human blood.

It was always the weak link in the Eddie-and-Keela partnership that both dogs react(ed) to the scent of blood.

When Grime trained Morse, he skipped the step of introducing Morse to the scent of blood as a discrete scent, so that the dog would only react to blood if it was mixed with a human corpse which, alone, is what he was trained to react to. 

The idea was that by not training the dog to react to blood as a discrete scent you would increase assurity that if the dog did react, the reaction was to a cadaver scent.

At the same time, in the event of a reaction by the cadaver dog, you had a second dog trained to find nothing but blood who could search an area made manageable to search by the reaction of the cadaver dog looking for blood (that may be of assistance in a criminal enquiry).

[pathfinder73]

Cadaver dogs alert to human blood scent. Eddie, Buster.....End of.

When would I use a Human Remains Detection Dog?

Human Remains Detections dogs are best used for cases like buried bodies, aged disarticulations, old homicide or suicide cases, bone searches, blood evidence, residual scent, crime scenes, building searches, and vehicle searches.

http://www.csst.org/faq.html.

[ferryman]

Cadaver dogs alert to human blood scent. Eddie, Buster.....End of.

When would I use a Human Remains Detection Dog?

Human Remains Detections dogs are best used for cases like buried bodies, aged disarticulations, old homicide or suicide cases, bone searches, blood evidence, residual scent, crime scenes, building searches, and vehicle searches.

http://www.csst.org/faq.html.

You miss the key point.

What a dog reacts to is determined by training.

There is no point in having two dogs trained to react to the same substance.

[pathfinder73]

This is simple Ferryman.  Cadaver dogs search for human remains including blood evidence.

What are the qualities and skills of a Human Remains Detection Dog?

The Human Remains Detection Dog is trained to alert on residual scent along with other faint scent sources like dried blood.

[ferryman]

This is simple Ferryman.  Cadaver dogs search for human remains including blood evidence.

What are the qualities and skills of a Human Remains Detection Dog?

The Human Remains Detection Dog is trained to alert on residual scent along with other faint scent sources like dried blood.

It is, indeed, simple pathfinder.

Why do you suppose Grime was asked, in his rogatory interview whether Eddie would react to blood?